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How do Church plants thrive and not just survive? . · Vox ministries Podcast

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SPEAKER_01: You are listening to the Vox Podcast.
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SPEAKER_01: In a world full of competing voices,
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SPEAKER_01: Vox Ministries seeks to communicate the voice of the gospel with clarity,
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SPEAKER_01: wisdom and grace,
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SPEAKER_01: helping people hear the good news of Jesus Christ in everyday life.
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SPEAKER_01: My name is Clive Parnell and in this podcast,
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SPEAKER_01: I interview Dave Richards, Rector of Peas and Gs Church in Edinburgh.
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SPEAKER_01: We will be exploring why and how church plants thrive and not just survive.
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SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoy the episode.
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SPEAKER_01: Hi Dave, welcome to the Boxer podcast, thank you for joining us.
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SPEAKER_01: Pleasure Clive, always
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SPEAKER_00: good to see you.
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SPEAKER_01: That's good.
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SPEAKER_01: Dave, just for people that don't know you,
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SPEAKER_01: or maybe some who do know you, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself?
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SPEAKER_01: Who's this Dave Richards guy?
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SPEAKER_00: My name is Dave Richards.
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SPEAKER_00: Dave Richards,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm what's called the Rector,
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SPEAKER_00: the Senior Pastor of St Paul's and St George's Scottish Episcopal Church here in
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SPEAKER_00: the centre of Edinburgh.
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SPEAKER_00: I've been here for 30 years,
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SPEAKER_00: which is a surprise to many,
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SPEAKER_00: not least to me,
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SPEAKER_00: and a large city centre,
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SPEAKER_00: Episcopal Anglican Church in the centre of Scotland's capital.
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SPEAKER_00: Church probably now of about 1,200, 1,300,
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SPEAKER_00: lots of young adults,
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SPEAKER_00: students,
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SPEAKER_00: young families,
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SPEAKER_00: growing,
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SPEAKER_00: challenging,
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SPEAKER_00: and it's just been an absolute joy and privilege to help to serve and to lead here
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SPEAKER_00: for the last...
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SPEAKER_00: 30 years,
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SPEAKER_00: came up from England 30 years ago,
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SPEAKER_00: thought we'd stay for six or seven years and then go back to England.
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SPEAKER_00: But we stayed,
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SPEAKER_00: fallen in love with Scotland and I retire next year and we're going to stay living
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SPEAKER_00: in Scotland once we retire.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's been quite a journey, isn't it?
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SPEAKER_01: From thinking that you might stay six or seven years to 30 years and
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SPEAKER_01: And we'll maybe unpick some of those learning moments over the years as we go through that.
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SPEAKER_01: But yeah, and amazing, you know, that you've kind of worked with different people.
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SPEAKER_01: I've known you for a number of those years.
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SPEAKER_01: And amazing how,
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SPEAKER_01: by God's grace, I'm a Liverpool supporter and you're a Manchester United supporter.
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SPEAKER_01: So just incredible, isn't it, how God's grace works?
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SPEAKER_01: The sun shines on the righteous and the unrighteous.
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SPEAKER_01: That's one way of putting it.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think over those years,
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SPEAKER_01: we've taken turns in Liverpool having bad years and Man United having bad years
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SPEAKER_01: and some being better than others, could we say, you know.
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SPEAKER_00: I think over the last 30 years, we've had more better years than you have.
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SPEAKER_00: But the last 10 years have been something of a drought for us.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's been particularly galling to see Man City get better.
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SPEAKER_00: And even Liverpool share occasional signs of life.
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SPEAKER_00: But I'm glad to see that you're back to your old ways and not looking good for this season.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll see about that, what we can learn from that.
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SPEAKER_01: And obviously, this is not a TalkSport podcast.
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SPEAKER_01: We are talking a bit about Christian ministry,
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SPEAKER_01: and we are particularly going to be thinking a bit about leadership and thinking
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SPEAKER_01: about...
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SPEAKER_01: I know that's a bit weird, but you know what I mean.
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SPEAKER_00: I think I'd probably start by saying, can I have some of your hair?
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SPEAKER_00: That would be the response.
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SPEAKER_00: But I think looking back over nearly 40 years of ministry and leadership,
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's a mixture of both being bolder And more assertive in some things and
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SPEAKER_00: then also not sweating the small stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's very easy in church leadership to be overly anxious about things that
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SPEAKER_00: in the grand scheme of things Don't actually matter.
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SPEAKER_00: But those are the things that keep you awake at night.
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SPEAKER_00: Those are the things that wake you up at night.
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SPEAKER_00: And you might have 10 compliments on a talk,
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SPEAKER_00: but it's the one negative email that you get that you remember.
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SPEAKER_00: So it's trying to keep that sense of proportion and perspective and And yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: but so don't sweat the small stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: Don't be as anxious about some stuff as you have been.
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SPEAKER_00: But also at the same time, paradoxically, you can be bolder.
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SPEAKER_00: You can be more assertive and take bigger risks than perhaps I have in the past.
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SPEAKER_01: I was just thinking about that.
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SPEAKER_01: That's really helpful.
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SPEAKER_01: I was kind of slightly laughing to myself in your analogy of saying,
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SPEAKER_01: You can have 10 compliments.
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SPEAKER_01: You'd be doing well with 10 compliments to the one negative.
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SPEAKER_01: Or maybe you always get 10 compliments.
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SPEAKER_00: In the Anglican Episcopal Church, I mean, you know, everyone says, that's nice.
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SPEAKER_00: And it means not as much use as like a chocolate teapot.
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SPEAKER_00: But no, I think I've been privileged to be part of a church that is encouraging.
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SPEAKER_00: If I get an email that's encouraging or if I get a thank you card, I print the email off.
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SPEAKER_00: I keep the card.
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SPEAKER_00: I've got a file in my desk and I keep those.
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SPEAKER_00: Somebody once said that encouragement is like oxygen to the soul.
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SPEAKER_00: And we all need those words of encouragement and to remember that God has called us.
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SPEAKER_00: And we do take things out of perspective and we do tend to remember the negative comments.
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SPEAKER_00: So therefore,
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SPEAKER_00: actually,
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SPEAKER_00: I think you consciously,
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SPEAKER_00: intentionally and purposefully,
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SPEAKER_00: particularly working and ministering in Scotland, where the Default is negative.
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SPEAKER_00: If you look at attitudes towards Scottish rugby or football teams, it's the hope that kills you.
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SPEAKER_00: So they're naturally melancholic and pretty pessimistic.
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SPEAKER_00: There's a reason why the penguins in Happy Feet are portrayed
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SPEAKER_00: as Scottish Presbyterian elders,
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SPEAKER_00: saying, So therefore you need to retain and cherish the encouragements.
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SPEAKER_00: Because that's important.
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SPEAKER_01: This is your cross-cultural ministry observations coming out here.
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SPEAKER_01: It is.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'm the only person left in our house that cheers for England in
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SPEAKER_00: the Six Nations Rugby Championship.
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SPEAKER_00: But I have a great deal of sympathy for Scottish football supporters and rugby supporters.
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SPEAKER_00: And I also envy the patriotism and the love of the country that Scots have,
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SPEAKER_00: which as English people,
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SPEAKER_00: you and I actually can't We don't really identify with very easily
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SPEAKER_00: because we don't really know what it is to be English.
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SPEAKER_00: But that's a whole different podcast.
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SPEAKER_00: That's a whole different podcast.
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SPEAKER_01: And there's also a little podcast about living in exile as well.
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SPEAKER_01: What is home?
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SPEAKER_01: That was another one.
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SPEAKER_01: So thinking a bit today then,
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SPEAKER_01: specifically,
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SPEAKER_01: you touched on churches and we're thinking a bit about church planting.
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SPEAKER_01: Before we delve into some of the depths of that stuff, you've studied some stuff on this.
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SPEAKER_01: What did you study?
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SPEAKER_01: Why did you study it?
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SPEAKER_01: Why is it of interest to you?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, about six or seven years ago,
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SPEAKER_00: a friend, well, he used to be a friend, suggested to me that I...
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SPEAKER_00: Began a program of study,
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SPEAKER_00: a doctor of ministry through Asbury Theological Seminary in Kentucky
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SPEAKER_00: in church planting.
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SPEAKER_00: And the reason that it appealed is that we have done two church plants in
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SPEAKER_00: the last 15 years in Scotland,
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SPEAKER_00: one within the city of Edinburgh and one across the waters in Fife.
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SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to learn ways of doing it better and in a healthier way so that
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SPEAKER_00: if we do future church plants,
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SPEAKER_00: they would be done in a more effective way,
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SPEAKER_00: in a more sustainable way,
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SPEAKER_00: both for the people who did the planting as well as the mother church,
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SPEAKER_00: the mother hub, the sending church.
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SPEAKER_00: And so that took me down a route of a three-year doctorate and And
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SPEAKER_00: the question I looked at was, what would it look like to have church planters who...
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SPEAKER_00: We live in a paradoxical world where the mainline denominations, mine,
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SPEAKER_00: along with the Church of Scotland and others like the Roman Catholic Church,
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SPEAKER_00: the Methodist Church, we are declining dramatically.
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SPEAKER_00: And yet at the same time,
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SPEAKER_00: newer forms of church,
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SPEAKER_00: newer denominations,
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SPEAKER_00: people like the Vineyard,
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SPEAKER_00: not that new,
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SPEAKER_00: the Free Church of Scotland,
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SPEAKER_00: and then the Assemblies of God,
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SPEAKER_00: and the black majority churches in particular,
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SPEAKER_00: are planting churches across Scotland, and they're growing, they're multiplying.
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SPEAKER_00: So there's this paradox, really,
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SPEAKER_00: that you have the mainline denominations declining,
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SPEAKER_00: and yet at the same time you've got these There are denominations and networks
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SPEAKER_00: which are growing and planting new churches.
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SPEAKER_00: The Free Church of Scotland had an aim of planting 30 churches by 2030
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SPEAKER_00: and they think there's been about 26.
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SPEAKER_00: It's quite dramatic and quite impressive ways in which they've done that.
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SPEAKER_00: Likewise the Assemblies of God, likewise the Vineyard.
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SPEAKER_00: So what could some of the mainline denominations,
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SPEAKER_00: if they're willing,
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SPEAKER_00: learn from church planting What could I learn from people who'd planted churches,
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SPEAKER_00: both those that had thrived, but then also those who had failed?
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SPEAKER_00: So I interviewed about 20 church planters from across the UK,
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SPEAKER_00: as well as some people who planted churches in the States,
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SPEAKER_00: and began to draw some principles that would be helpful in thinking
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SPEAKER_00: about future church plants,
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SPEAKER_00: both at a denominational network level, but then also at a local level.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there's a lot of stuff in there already,
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SPEAKER_01: and I suppose kind of drilling down into some of that stuff,
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SPEAKER_01: one sort of subsidiary question to that is
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SPEAKER_01: that obviously you've observed what churches have been doing,
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SPEAKER_01: what denominations have been doing,
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SPEAKER_01: what plants they've been doing, has that been working well or not?
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SPEAKER_01: I was just thinking like,
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SPEAKER_01: physically and theologically, I Were there any sort of observations that you made?
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SPEAKER_01: So this is a kind of very base level observation.
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SPEAKER_01: If a church,
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SPEAKER_01: for instance,
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SPEAKER_01: didn't really believe that Jesus was here to enable people to know forgiveness
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SPEAKER_01: of sins,
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SPEAKER_01: to know what it is to have a relationship with God,
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SPEAKER_01: to grow and to know the Father by the Spirit,
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SPEAKER_01: If they were somewhat more nominal,
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SPEAKER_01: would it not be the case that they're unlikely to be wanting
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SPEAKER_01: to plant churches anyway, or is that just an assumption of mine?
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SPEAKER_01: Was there any thinking on that?
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SPEAKER_00: I think the evidence shows from around the world that it is those churches that hold
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SPEAKER_00: to an orthodox theology and practice.
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SPEAKER_00: They're the ones who are motivated to plant churches, and they are the ones...
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SPEAKER_00: The
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SPEAKER_00: evidence across the UK is that there is something across different traditions,
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SPEAKER_00: but I think Within the Church of England,
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SPEAKER_00: for example,
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SPEAKER_00: they're beginning
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SPEAKER_00: to see some more Anglo-Catholic church planting movements beginning to happen.
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SPEAKER_00: And the fascinating thing is that in what's been called perhaps erroneously
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SPEAKER_00: the Quiet Revival,
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SPEAKER_00: I call it really a revival of curiosity,
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SPEAKER_00: which is in the last three or four years this fresh interest in people under the age
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SPEAKER_00: of 35 in Christianity and spirituality.
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SPEAKER_00: They are interested in churches that are more liturgical sometimes.
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SPEAKER_00: They're tending to go to cathedrals,
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SPEAKER_00: whether they be Anglican or Roman Catholic cathedrals,
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SPEAKER_00: and then they're going to Pentecostal churches,
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SPEAKER_00: and then they're coming to churches like ours that are more contemporary in worship.
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SPEAKER_00: But the thing that they share is orthodox Theology that's creedal,
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SPEAKER_00: they may express it in different ways.
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SPEAKER_00: Their worship may be different,
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SPEAKER_00: but people want to feel part of something ancient, bigger than they are.
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SPEAKER_00: They've worked out, they've been told that truth is relative.
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SPEAKER_00: They've worked out that can't be true.
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SPEAKER_00: There must be something such as truth.
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SPEAKER_00: So as long as churches are authentic,
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SPEAKER_00: To themselves and to Orthodox theology,
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SPEAKER_00: then people are finding that those type of churches are able to provide some of
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SPEAKER_00: the answers that they're looking for.
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SPEAKER_00: They may also end up with a whole set of different questions,
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SPEAKER_00: but the churches that are more liberal and more progressive,
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SPEAKER_00: there aren't very many examples of those churches growing.
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SPEAKER_00: Which again flies in the face of sort of the wisdom that says well if we adapt
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SPEAKER_00: to our culture and adapt to what people think today then somehow they will feel more
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SPEAKER_00: at home.
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SPEAKER_00: The whole point of the church right from the beginning was that it was distinctive
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SPEAKER_00: and different.
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SPEAKER_00: There was something about the quality of life in the early Christian communities
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SPEAKER_00: that made them distinctive.
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SPEAKER_00: And even though it was life-threatening to become a Christian, people were attracted to them.
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SPEAKER_00: So in the Acts of the Apostles and then in the first three centuries, you see Christians
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SPEAKER_00: Drawing people into these communities of faith, using the household, using the assemblies.
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SPEAKER_00: And in the face of opposition and persecution and even death, people became Christians.
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SPEAKER_00: People became followers of Christ.
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SPEAKER_00: So the churches that are distinctively different,
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SPEAKER_00: they're the ones that people want to join because what's the point
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SPEAKER_00: in giving your life up for something that may or may not be true?
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SPEAKER_01: If there's a kind of theological basis for it,
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SPEAKER_01: one in which people believe this stuff is true,
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SPEAKER_01: let's put it in basic terms,
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SPEAKER_01: and it's true and it works, then there'll be a sense in which it's thriving more.
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SPEAKER_01: If people are a little bit like pay lip service to it,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to die for that,
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SPEAKER_01: then it probably won't work as much or there won't be much kind of momentum
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SPEAKER_01: or growth.
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SPEAKER_01: Are there any observations as to why certain churches thrive in terms of planting
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SPEAKER_01: and what were your implications of that?
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SPEAKER_00: The main four findings that came out of my research were these.
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SPEAKER_00: The first one was that if the church in Scotland is to plant more churches,
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SPEAKER_00: then some denominations,
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SPEAKER_00: like my own,
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SPEAKER_00: the Episcopal Church,
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SPEAKER_00: the Anglican one,
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SPEAKER_00: the Church of Scotland,
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SPEAKER_00: for example,
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SPEAKER_00: the Presbyterian State Church,
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SPEAKER_00: and others,
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SPEAKER_00: We'll need to develop separate criteria and separate pathways for church planters.
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SPEAKER_00: There's a distinction that needs to be made between people who are going
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SPEAKER_00: to lead inherited churches,
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SPEAKER_00: and they're probably going to be pastors and teachers,
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SPEAKER_00: and then people who are planting churches who are going
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SPEAKER_00: to be more evangelistically minded,
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SPEAKER_00: they're going to be more entrepreneurial,
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SPEAKER_00: some might say apostolic people,
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SPEAKER_00: Some people don't like the use of that term,
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SPEAKER_00: but they're going to want to make a difference.
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SPEAKER_00: A pastor teacher is going to be more of a manager.
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SPEAKER_00: They're going to look after people.
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SPEAKER_00: An evangelist, an apostolic entrepreneur, they're going to want to change things.
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SPEAKER_00: They're going to want to move things forward.
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SPEAKER_00: They're going to make an impact.
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SPEAKER_00: So they're quite different personality types
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SPEAKER_00: and therefore you probably need different criteria for selecting
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SPEAKER_00: and choosing different types of leaders.
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SPEAKER_00: Now some people would say that particularly in Scotland where we are
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SPEAKER_00: a very secular nation,
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SPEAKER_00: only 5-6% of the population go to church,
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SPEAKER_00: we are in some ways an unreached people's group,
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SPEAKER_00: then actually if you're a Even if you're a pastor teacher in an inherited church,
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SPEAKER_00: you probably still need some missional awareness and cross-cultural training
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SPEAKER_00: because some of the assumptions that the church has made in Scotland over
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SPEAKER_00: the last 400 years, they've gone.
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SPEAKER_00: So you need some training in mission of some type.
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SPEAKER_00: If you're a church planter,
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SPEAKER_00: if you're an apostolic entrepreneur,
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SPEAKER_00: then there's different types of training,
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SPEAKER_00: but there's also different criteria that you need to be measured by.
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SPEAKER_00: So one church planter said to me that church planting is like cooking without a recipe.
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SPEAKER_00: It's like opening the fridge, seeing what's there, and cooking with it.
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SPEAKER_00: So an inherited church leader, a pastor, they go by the cookbook.
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SPEAKER_00: They look at the recipe.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm not talking about the Bible.
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SPEAKER_00: They go by the cookbook and they go, well, this is what it should look like.
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SPEAKER_00: This is what we do.
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SPEAKER_00: But a church planter will open the fridge and go, okay, I'll make something out of what's there.
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SPEAKER_00: So they're a bit more off the cuff.
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SPEAKER_00: They're a bit out there.
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SPEAKER_00: People in the mainline denomination may struggle with people like that.
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SPEAKER_00: They may appear a bit flaky, a bit more radical, a bit rebellious at times.
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SPEAKER_00: And therefore,
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SPEAKER_00: how you integrate a church planter into a mainline denomination is another question.
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SPEAKER_00: A second key finding was that these...
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SPEAKER_00: Type of leaders,
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SPEAKER_00: the church in Scotland,
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SPEAKER_00: particularly again in the mainline denominations,
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SPEAKER_00: Church of Scotland,
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SPEAKER_00: Scottish Episcopal,
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SPEAKER_00: Methodist, URC,
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SPEAKER_00: Roman Catholic,
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SPEAKER_00: we're not very good at looking and identifying these apostolic entrepreneurs.
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SPEAKER_00: We're looking for people who will be pastor teachers.
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SPEAKER_00: The same is true for some more reformed churches as well.
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SPEAKER_00: Free Church would be an exception,
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SPEAKER_00: but what they've done is develop a separate pathway for people who are going
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SPEAKER_00: to plan That's distinct from people who will take on an inherited church.
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SPEAKER_00: Stephan Pass has written a book about church planting in Europe and he uses
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SPEAKER_00: the example from industry of free havens, laboratories and incubators.
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SPEAKER_00: And there's these three sort of environments that you need to have in order
19:43
SPEAKER_00: to experiment and do things differently.
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SPEAKER_00: So you need a laboratory where people can try stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: So I suppose Fresh Expressions or Emerging Church might be an example of a laboratory.
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SPEAKER_00: But then also you need free havens.
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SPEAKER_00: And in Passage's work,
19:59
SPEAKER_00: free havens sociologically will often be found on the edge of an institution.
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SPEAKER_00: But what you then need to do is have some means whereby those at the center of
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SPEAKER_00: the institution or the company will The learnings from the free haven can be fed
20:18
SPEAKER_00: into the center so that what happens on the fringe and most change happens on
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SPEAKER_00: the fringe.
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SPEAKER_00: Can be fed into the center because if it's not then the danger is that those on
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SPEAKER_00: the fringe will spin off and spin out as often happens with church planters
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SPEAKER_00: and those at the center won't get any of the benefit of learning from those on
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SPEAKER_00: the fringe.
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SPEAKER_00: So that was fascinating to me.
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SPEAKER_00: A third key finding was that support networks are absolutely vital in encouraging
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SPEAKER_00: and helping those who are engaged in church planting.
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SPEAKER_00: So particularly during the 1980s,
20:58
SPEAKER_00: you had this movement Dawn,
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SPEAKER_00: which was looking to plant churches across the whole of Europe,
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SPEAKER_00: had this ridiculously ambitious aim of planting,
21:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, 100,000 churches across the continent of Europe.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: Something like that was crazy.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: There was no strategy.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: There was no training.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: There was no thinking as to how it was going to happen.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: And Most importantly,
21:21
SPEAKER_00: there was no support put in place for the people who started
21:25
SPEAKER_00: to plant those churches.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: And perhaps the top finding,
21:30
SPEAKER_00: people who planted churches and who had thrived,
21:33
SPEAKER_00: and then people who planted churches that had failed,
21:37
SPEAKER_00: was that a key determining factor was, are they part of a network?
21:42
SPEAKER_00: So I talked to people in the HDB network,
21:44
SPEAKER_00: people in the New Wine network,
21:46
SPEAKER_00: people in other networks across the vineyard,
21:49
SPEAKER_00: for example, and they all stressed the importance of vineyard, sorry, of networks.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: The vineyard movement actually had as a requirement that in order to plant a church
22:03
SPEAKER_00: for A church planter to be recognized as a vineyard church planter,
22:09
SPEAKER_00: you have to commit to be part of the network of church planters for the first three
22:14
SPEAKER_00: to five years.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: Because in terms of accountability and authority and support and encouragement,
22:21
SPEAKER_00: you're going to need each other.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: So planting a church, as you know, planting a church is really hard work.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Planting a church, church life in general is hard work.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: It's difficult.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Just reading this book called Insane for the Light by a Roman Catholic priest
22:39
SPEAKER_00: and theologian called Ronald Rolheiser.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: And he says this, in seminary they tell you what to do in ministry.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: But what they don't tell you in seminary is what ministry does to you.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: I just think that's so profound because often theological colleges,
22:56
SPEAKER_00: seminaries will spend a lot of time imparting knowledge.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: They might impart some techniques but not much about how to run and lead a church.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: They don't shape people to protect themselves for what ministry will do to them.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: What I've had to learn the hard way is how do you stave off and protect yourself
23:20
SPEAKER_00: from Some of the difficulties,
23:22
SPEAKER_00: challenges and obstacles that occur in church ministry,
23:26
SPEAKER_00: which are magnified in church planting,
23:29
SPEAKER_00: when often you're by yourself,
23:31
SPEAKER_00: often you've got few resources, often you've got few people.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: So the idea of future church planters being trained and equipped in developing
23:42
SPEAKER_00: and sustaining personal resilience,
23:44
SPEAKER_00: and a key part of that is that they are plugged into both a local network,
23:51
SPEAKER_00: And a national network who will give them the encouragement,
23:55
SPEAKER_00: who will give them the resources,
23:58
SPEAKER_00: who will give them the help and advice that they need because we were never meant
24:03
SPEAKER_00: to do church alone.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: That's true for a church member.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: You can't be a Christian by yourself.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: Although as evangelicals we believe in a personal faith,
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Christianity was always meant to be plural.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Most of the verbs in the New Testament are plural.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: We're meant to work out our salvation with each other.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: So that if I can love a Liverpool supporter, I can love anybody.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: That's the whole point,
24:27
SPEAKER_00: is that I'm called to love you as a brother in Christ,
24:30
SPEAKER_00: even though you're a Liverpool fan.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: And there are far more worse things in the church.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Are there?
24:35
SPEAKER_00: No, maybe not.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: But that's the whole point.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: And if that's true of being a church member, it's even more true...
24:42
SPEAKER_00: Of being a church leader and a church planter.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: So with the Bible,
24:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't think,
24:48
SPEAKER_00: Scripture,
24:50
SPEAKER_00: they were always sent out in twos,
24:52
SPEAKER_00: they were always sent out in teams,
24:55
SPEAKER_00: and it was always supposed to be a plurality of leadership in a local church.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: So within what you've said there,
25:06
SPEAKER_01: I totally get the stuff,
25:08
SPEAKER_01: what you might call five-fold ministry,
25:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:11
SPEAKER_01: apostolic,
25:15
SPEAKER_01: And within that sort of area of somebody who could be a visionary,
25:20
SPEAKER_01: creative, innovate things, that's been a bit of my experience in my life.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: And I think I suppose because it's my experience,
25:32
SPEAKER_01: the challenge for oneself as well as others that are similar to that is
25:38
SPEAKER_01: that I guess one of the things that could be a challenge is
25:42
SPEAKER_01: that you could set vision,
25:44
SPEAKER_01: goals and aims and you could grow and you could have,
25:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:48
SPEAKER_01: you could have So the measurableness of that is that the entrepreneur,
25:58
SPEAKER_01: let's put it more crassly,
26:00
SPEAKER_01: setting up a business,
26:02
SPEAKER_01: selling burgers, happens to sell millions and millions of burgers.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: But obviously we're not in the game of selling burgers, we're dealing with people.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: So how do we...
26:11
SPEAKER_01: How do plants measure, well,
26:14
SPEAKER_01: you say successful, but we were saying more like fruitful, I think, biblically.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: If a church is fruitful, how does it measure that?
26:22
SPEAKER_01: Surely not by just numbers.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: No.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: The difficulties,
26:29
SPEAKER_00: I think,
26:29
SPEAKER_00: that often in the church,
26:31
SPEAKER_00: often, if we're honest, in the evangelical church, We measure the wrong things.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: Now you measure what you think is important and you celebrate what you think is important.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think over the last 30 years with the church growth movement,
26:45
SPEAKER_00: et cetera, we became quite numbers driven.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: And it is about fruitfulness.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: And it is about,
26:52
SPEAKER_00: so we've been doing a lot of work in the last five or six years
26:56
SPEAKER_00: about how do you measure discipleship and how do you measure the impact of
27:00
SPEAKER_00: the church rather than Just the attendance at church.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: How do you measure someone's spiritual growth?
27:06
SPEAKER_00: How do they measure their own spiritual growth?
27:09
SPEAKER_00: What are the indicators?
27:11
SPEAKER_00: And the indicators,
27:12
SPEAKER_00: I think, according to the New Testament, are not how many times you go to church.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: They're not actually how many times you read the Bible or how long your prayer time is.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: The indicators are, well, how loving are you?
27:25
SPEAKER_00: How joyful are you?
27:26
SPEAKER_00: How peaceful are you?
27:28
SPEAKER_00: How patient are you?
27:29
SPEAKER_00: How compassionate are you?
27:32
SPEAKER_00: Is the character of Christ,
27:34
SPEAKER_00: the fruit of the Spirit, is that being formed more fully within you?
27:39
SPEAKER_00: Now, like you,
27:41
SPEAKER_00: I've known lots of people who've been in church for 60, 70,
27:44
SPEAKER_00: 80 years,
27:45
SPEAKER_00: and the longer they've been in church,
27:47
SPEAKER_00: they've got angrier, and they've got less kind, and less loving, and less joyful.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, that shows that something fundamentally is wrong.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: So it's not
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Again, the Christianity isn't a loyalty program.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: You don't get points just for turning up.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: It's about, am I becoming more like Jesus?
28:07
SPEAKER_00: So it's the character of Jesus.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Am I more like Jesus today than I was yesterday?
28:14
SPEAKER_00: The way I drive my car, can someone see that I'm a Christian in my attitude on the road?
28:21
SPEAKER_00: In the way I treat cyclists.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: Or if I'm a cyclist who's a Christian, in the way that I treat drivers.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Or if I'm a parent.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: What really strikes me looking at Paul's lessons of the Ephesian church is that
28:33
SPEAKER_00: the test of whether you're filled with the Spirit,
28:37
SPEAKER_00: you know, go on be being filled with the Spirit.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: The test of whether you know that you're filled with the Spirit is not
28:45
SPEAKER_00: whether you speak in tongues,
28:46
SPEAKER_00: whether you're an evangelist, whether you're a prophet, etc.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: It's about relationships.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: It's whether you submit to each other out of reverence for Christ,
28:56
SPEAKER_00: wives, husbands, parents, children, slaves, masters.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: So as Paul is saying to the church in Ephesus,
29:05
SPEAKER_00: that the way in which you will be distinctively different and the way in
29:08
SPEAKER_00: which people will know that you're full of the Spirit is
29:11
SPEAKER_00: that there's something qualitatively different about the way in
29:15
SPEAKER_00: which you treat each other.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: And it's in your relationships that will be the evidence of whether you're filled
29:22
SPEAKER_00: with the Spirit.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: Not how long you can preach for,
29:25
SPEAKER_00: not how amazing your times of worship are,
29:28
SPEAKER_00: not how many times you speak in tongues or prophesy, etc.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: It's your relationships.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: Are you more loving?
29:36
SPEAKER_00: Are you kinder?
29:37
SPEAKER_00: Are you more compassionate?
29:39
SPEAKER_00: Are you more patient?
29:41
SPEAKER_00: So in the supermarket, am I more patient this week than I was last week?
29:47
SPEAKER_00: Those are the tests of someone's spirituality.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Are we more patient with Liverpool and Manchester United this season than we were last season?
29:56
SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, I would agree on that.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: I think I would also maybe add something to that in the sense
30:04
SPEAKER_01: that I suppose what you shared in terms of the fruit of spirit is absolutely right.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: I think the slight challenge is where we might be sort of tempted to move towards moralism.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: So I'm totally on board with you.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is my attitude like in terms of driving?
30:22
SPEAKER_01: And what I would sort of add to that is The wisdom that's spoken about in
30:27
SPEAKER_01: the Bible gives us a framework for that.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: If the beginning of wisdom is to fear the Lord,
30:34
SPEAKER_01: then am I becoming slower to speak and honk the horn of that guy?
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Am I becoming slower to become angry
30:45
SPEAKER_01: because actually what I'm doing is I'm becoming wiser because I seek first
30:51
SPEAKER_01: the kingdom of God and because I'm becoming wiser and mature.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: The Ephesians 4 stuff is obviously that you've got four and five,
30:59
SPEAKER_01: you've got the fivefold ministry, but what's the purpose of it?
31:02
SPEAKER_01: It's to equip us to become more mature, isn't it?
31:07
SPEAKER_01: The challenging stuff in Scripture for me in
31:10
SPEAKER_01: that regard is how do we measure growth is what we're talking about.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: When I look at Paul and I think he was betrayed,
31:18
SPEAKER_01: slandered,
31:19
SPEAKER_01: beaten up,
31:20
SPEAKER_01: persecuted,
31:21
SPEAKER_01: left for dead,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: he wasn't just left in that position because he was trying to be loving.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: He was in that position because he was also speaking the truth of the gospel.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: And so people were offended by that, weren't they?
31:37
SPEAKER_01: So the reason that he was kicked out of town and beaten up was
31:42
SPEAKER_01: because people didn't want to hear what he had to say.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: They were offended whether they were religious or not religious.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: So I wonder if a new challenge for us in We've been through this kind
31:52
SPEAKER_01: of echo chambers and progressive kind of thinking and still somewhere here
31:56
SPEAKER_01: and somewhere there, it's gone right and it's gone left.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: I just wonder whether part of that thriving is to kind of,
32:05
SPEAKER_01: and this is just what I'm working through in my own head,
32:08
SPEAKER_01: and I don't know whether you think this or not,
32:10
SPEAKER_01: it's just working out why we believe what we believe,
32:12
SPEAKER_01: what is it we believe,
32:13
SPEAKER_01: and are we willing to actually,
32:15
SPEAKER_01: you said when you were 25, you'd say take more risks.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: Are we willing to take a risk in actually speaking the truth,
32:22
SPEAKER_01: even if it means people won't like us?
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you've got to earn the right to be heard.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: I think because we're in a post-Christian secular world,
32:34
SPEAKER_00: I think the church has to earn the right to gain a hearing.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: And the danger is that you might be saying truth, but no one's listening.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: And you might be proclaiming something that nobody actually wants to hear.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think...
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Having worked as an evangelist,
32:51
SPEAKER_00: you earn the right to be heard by a demonstration of Christ working through you and
32:59
SPEAKER_00: in your life.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: So it's not moralism, but it's about Jesus.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: I think we sometimes get this false dichotomy between what's more important,
33:08
SPEAKER_00: evangelism or social action or words or deeds.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: If we asked that question to Jesus, it would just be a non-question.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: He would just say, well, of course, both are important.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: You can't say one thing and then not do the other,
33:21
SPEAKER_00: but neither can you just do stuff and not say something.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: So both are equally important.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: I agree with you there.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: It's a both and.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: I guess what I'm arguing for here is that I think
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Particularly within the Scottish context that we're in,
33:45
SPEAKER_01: is that I think the ages of the seeker-friendly church that we had for many years,
33:51
SPEAKER_01: let's be nice towards people and let's be engaging with people where they're at
33:56
SPEAKER_01: and kind of let's...
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Invite people to church,
34:00
SPEAKER_01: and that's where people will become Christians,
34:04
SPEAKER_01: is not necessarily the stuff that Paul was experiencing in his own,
34:09
SPEAKER_01: because how he was living, what he was saying was offensive.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: And the reason is,
34:14
SPEAKER_01: it's not because he was being offensive, it's because the gospel is offensive.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: So the right to speak into someone's situation... No, the gospel is not offensive.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: The gospel is not offensive.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: The cross is offensive.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: And the cross is an offense.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: But the gospel is good news.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think part of the gospel is particular.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: The gospel is good news.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: No, you're right.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: The gospel is good news.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: But what I mean is it's offensive to those who are foolish and perishing.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
34:45
SPEAKER_01: That's what Scripture says.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: It can be.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: But I think we need to be honest and say that a lot
34:51
SPEAKER_00: of Christian preachers can make it offensive by the way in which they present it.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying get on a sandwich board and go down the street and shout people.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: But I think what we're saying in terms of the relational aspect,
35:06
SPEAKER_01: you want to be in your workplace and you don't want to be the annoying one
35:08
SPEAKER_01: that stands up as an evangelist every five minutes and says,
35:11
SPEAKER_01: you know, basically John 3, 16.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: You've got to be integrated into life and to be involved in sorting the whole of life.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: I guess all I'm just saying, Dave, is just that I think...
35:23
SPEAKER_01: That in an age where we can be cancelled for different things,
35:27
SPEAKER_01: isn't it slightly harder to say actually this is what the gospel is?
35:32
SPEAKER_00: I would agree.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think that the challenge for the church,
35:37
SPEAKER_00: doing some teaching recently in the church about forgiveness and restoration,
35:43
SPEAKER_00: particularly of leaders,
35:47
SPEAKER_00: I think in a society,
35:48
SPEAKER_00: in a culture which cancels very easily,
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Then how much more radical then is the gospel with its offer of forgiveness
35:58
SPEAKER_00: and restoration and renewal and redemption?
36:01
SPEAKER_00: But it will be unpopular in a culture which will cancel people rather than...
36:08
SPEAKER_00: An example I used last Sunday.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't politically have much in common with Kemi Badenoch.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: But I think she was actually right to speak up on behalf of that former,
36:20
SPEAKER_00: and the word's important,
36:22
SPEAKER_00: former neo-Nazi who was then adopted as a conservative candidate.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: Now in the end,
36:27
SPEAKER_00: he stepped back,
36:28
SPEAKER_00: but what sentence does someone have to serve before they can be restored?
36:36
SPEAKER_00: If we believe in amazing grace,
36:38
SPEAKER_00: and it's not about minimizing or excusing what they've done,
36:42
SPEAKER_00: and justice has to be seen to be done,
36:44
SPEAKER_00: and if they've done something criminal, it has to be paid.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: Surely, we're the church, for goodness sake.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: We believe in a gospel of redemption.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: We believe in outrageous, amazing, impossible, unconditional love.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Without it, all of us are stuffed.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: In a society and a culture that is very quick to cancel,
37:11
SPEAKER_00: how could we model something that is so winsome, so generous and so attractive?
37:17
SPEAKER_00: Again, if you go back to the early church,
37:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:22
SPEAKER_00: in the pandemics,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: in this first, second,
37:24
SPEAKER_00: third centuries,
37:25
SPEAKER_00: there was something so attractive about the early church that people still wanted
37:30
SPEAKER_00: to join them,
37:31
SPEAKER_00: even though they knew that It would probably mean separation from their families.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: It might mean the lack of a career.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: It might mean persecution.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: It might even mean death.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: But there was something so deeply attracted by the quality of their communal life
37:49
SPEAKER_00: that people still flocked to join them because they saw something different.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: They saw the love of Christ lived out in ordinary people's lives,
37:58
SPEAKER_00: on the back of which it was then explained to them Why they were like that?
38:03
SPEAKER_00: Because of what Christ did on the cross.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: So it's earning the right to be hurt by the quality of the lives that we live.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: It's still there.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully technology will sort that one out.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: We've got a bit frozen chosen.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: It might sort out my theology as
38:20
SPEAKER_01: well, I don't know.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: It's just going to end it all.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: Basically...
38:29
SPEAKER_01: As we're moving towards a close,
38:30
SPEAKER_01: we've kind of touched on what we were just talking about there in terms of,
38:35
SPEAKER_01: I suppose,
38:36
SPEAKER_01: what does the gospel sound like in the culture that we live in,
38:38
SPEAKER_01: the spiritual landscape of where we're at.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: So as we look ahead and as you did this study, what would you say...
38:50
SPEAKER_01: What kind of advice would you give to people or observations as people think
38:54
SPEAKER_01: about planting a church in Scotland on the back of some of what we've said?
38:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it hasn't been like what we've said.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: Do you say in terms of looking at the landscape,
39:04
SPEAKER_01: going ahead and planting a church, what would that look like and any advice on that?
39:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, it was while I was doing the research and actually...
39:16
SPEAKER_00: Doing some reading from a doctorate that led to the formation of
39:20
SPEAKER_00: the Scottish Church Planting Network.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: So I was reading a book about the United Methodist Church in Colombia,
39:28
SPEAKER_00: and they were planting a church in the third largest city in Colombia.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: And they realized when they looked at the city that, well,
39:35
SPEAKER_00: the United Methodist Church could plant one congregation,
39:38
SPEAKER_00: but it really, I mean,
39:40
SPEAKER_00: The United Methodist Church may be a lot better in Colombia than it is in the UK,
39:44
SPEAKER_00: but it wasn't really going to cut it.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: And what was required was a network of church planters across denominations,
39:50
SPEAKER_00: across traditions,
39:52
SPEAKER_00: to plant different types of churches to reach different territories.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: And I thought, what we need is a Scottish church planting network.
39:57
SPEAKER_00: So on the back of that...
40:10
SPEAKER_00: Along with a couple of friends,
40:11
SPEAKER_00: one from the Church of Scotland,
40:12
SPEAKER_00: one from the Free Church of Scotland,
40:14
SPEAKER_00: we formed the Scottish Church Planting Network,
40:16
SPEAKER_00: which now brings together people from 15,
40:19
SPEAKER_00: 16 different denominations, tribes, networks, from quite different traditions.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: If we see each other as colleagues and collaborators and not competitors,
40:29
SPEAKER_00: so first, if you feel called to plant somewhere, is anybody else planting there?
40:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, if another church is planting into the same place as you,
40:38
SPEAKER_00: why are you going to plant there?
40:40
SPEAKER_00: So let's use the resources of the kingdom of God economically and strategically.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: So if someone's already doing a church plant in that part of that town or that city,
40:50
SPEAKER_00: then go plant somewhere else.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: Why plant churches next door to each other?
40:58
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't make sense.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: So first of all, be aware of what's happening across the nation.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: Be aware of what's happening in that city,
41:06
SPEAKER_00: that town, that village, and what other churches are doing.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: Even churches that you might disagree with or might disagree with you.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
41:14
SPEAKER_00: They might be right.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: You might be wrong.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: So have a bit of generous orthodoxy.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: Have a bit of grace.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: Plan, pray,
41:23
SPEAKER_00: prepare,
41:24
SPEAKER_00: train for about a year before you plant,
41:27
SPEAKER_00: gather a group of people who are going to plant with you,
41:30
SPEAKER_00: be part of a network that will support you,
41:33
SPEAKER_00: and then be utterly realistic that it might take 10 years.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: So again,
41:37
SPEAKER_00: the Church of England,
41:39
SPEAKER_00: when they're planting churches in a quite remarkable way south of the border,
41:43
SPEAKER_00: they're But the measurements and the pressure that's put upon some people in
41:49
SPEAKER_00: the Church of England to plant churches to every three months to report back on
41:53
SPEAKER_00: the number of baptisms,
41:55
SPEAKER_00: the number of attenders,
41:56
SPEAKER_00: the way the income giving is increasing,
41:59
SPEAKER_00: that puts a huge strain upon church planters.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: So you have to be realistic and say, well, where are we now?
42:05
SPEAKER_00: Where would we like to be in 10 years' time?
42:08
SPEAKER_00: And then...
42:09
SPEAKER_00: Be realistic, but then also be faith-filled.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: And the gospel does say that if,
42:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:16
SPEAKER_00: the church,
42:17
SPEAKER_00: lots of the pictures of the church are organic and it's about growth and life.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: But Jesus also told that parable about something has to die in order for there to be life.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: And there has to be a lot of seed that's sown in order to bring about harvest from some.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: And church planting is hard work.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: Church planting is difficult.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: Church planting is challenging.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: I had the huge privilege when I was training for the ordained ministry of sitting
42:45
SPEAKER_00: under the teaching of Leslie Newbegin,
42:49
SPEAKER_00: who is probably one of the You know,
42:51
SPEAKER_00: greatest missiologists of the last 50, 60, 70 years.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: And somebody asked him and said,
42:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:58
SPEAKER_00: what's it like coming back to Birmingham in England,
43:00
SPEAKER_00: having lived in India for so many years?
43:03
SPEAKER_00: And what do you think about mission in Birmingham compared with India?
43:08
SPEAKER_00: And he said, oh, India was far easier.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: Far easier.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: Birmingham in the 21st century was far more complex than Far more difficult
43:17
SPEAKER_00: and far more challenging.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: And the culture that we live in is far more challenging, far more difficult.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: And yet,
43:28
SPEAKER_00: in a way that I have not seen in 40 years of ordained ministry,
43:32
SPEAKER_00: more open and more exciting than at any other time in my ministry.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: So I'm seeing people under the age of 35 who Come into churches with questions and
43:45
SPEAKER_00: an openness that I have never seen before.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: It's quite remarkable.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: So Jesus will still build his church.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: The question is, it might not be a church that we would agree with.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: It might not even be a church that would let you or I in,
44:00
SPEAKER_00: which is really bad news because we know that we're right.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: But it may be that Jesus is more right than we are.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think what I'm getting from you is that, yeah,
44:10
SPEAKER_01: there is,
44:11
SPEAKER_01: as I would agree,
44:12
SPEAKER_01: there's been this shift from what I would have experienced when I worked
44:16
SPEAKER_01: with university students 25 years ago.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: New atheism, skepticism, gods of delusion, not open to spirituality.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: We know that in the midst people are open,
44:27
SPEAKER_01: some of them are getting involved in stuff that's not great,
44:30
SPEAKER_01: but there is an openness to a discussion,
44:32
SPEAKER_01: to seeking, to finding, to engage with church.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: So from that point of view,
44:38
SPEAKER_01: We pray that these opportunities,
44:40
SPEAKER_01: the landscape that is a bit more open, we will see more church plants.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: We will see more people come to know Jesus,
44:47
SPEAKER_01: people who will grow in their war with Jesus, see his kingdom coming.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: And I think in that way, you're right, there is a shift.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't denounce the fact that what you've been saying
44:59
SPEAKER_01: and I've been saying is that There are processes to this.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: You don't just kind of chuck a house up.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: You have to think these things through and you have to think about foundations
45:08
SPEAKER_00: of things as well, especially, don't you?
45:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well,
45:13
SPEAKER_01: it's been so good to chat with you once again,
45:16
SPEAKER_01: and I appreciate you,
45:18
SPEAKER_01: and you've met up with me and put up with me over the years and had plenty
45:21
SPEAKER_01: of coffee,
45:22
SPEAKER_01: so I appreciate all the time that you've given me,
45:24
SPEAKER_01: and to other people,
45:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure,
45:26
SPEAKER_01: in ministry in Scotland as well,
45:29
SPEAKER_01: so it's been great to spend the time and hear some of what your studies taught you,
45:33
SPEAKER_01: and if people want to find out more anywhere they can go,
45:37
SPEAKER_01: check stuff out, even check out what you like.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's available through Asbury Theological Seminary.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: And look out for the Scottish church planting network.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: We've got a conference coming up in Aberdeen, a day conference in November.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: Details of that will be coming out fairly quickly.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: And that's specifically designed for people who are thinking about planting churches
46:02
SPEAKER_00: across different denominations.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: So thanks so much for joining us.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: And for those who have been listening,
46:10
SPEAKER_01: if you want to find out other podcasts that are recording,
46:14
SPEAKER_01: go to poxministries.co.uk.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: It's on YouTube as well.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Dave, for your time.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much once again.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: Pleasure.