Latest / Kat Has Questions: True Crime and Unsolved Mysteries / The Murder of Kelsie Schelling & The Woman Who Dated the Prime Suspect

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The Murder of Kelsie Schelling & The Woman Who Dated the Prime Suspect · Kat Has Questions: True Crime and Unsolved Mysteries

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Kat Has Questions. Curiosity, stories, and the strange
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: corners of everyday life. Hello, hello, I'm Kat. The story
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: I have today is a very interesting one. It is
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: one about a disappearance, but also with a twist where
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: there are other women who come in and save the day.
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  Speaker 1: Let's get into it. On March 8th, 2021, 12 jurors
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  Speaker 1: in Pueblo, Colorado were asked to answer a question investigators
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: had been carrying for more than eight years. Did Dante
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Isaiah Richard Lucas murder 21-year-old Kelsey Schelling? Prosecutors couldn't show
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: the jury where Kelsey was killed. They couldn't show them
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  Speaker 1: a murder weapon, a crime scene, or even Kelsey's body.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: More than eight years after she disappeared, Investigators still hadn't
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  Speaker 1: found her. And yet, after weeks of testimony, surveillance footage,
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  Speaker 1: phone and banking records, witness accounts, and years of investigative work,
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  Speaker 1: the jury found Dante Lucas guilty of first-degree murder. So,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: how do 12 people become convinced beyond a reasonable doubt
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  Speaker 1: that a murder had occurred when the victim has never
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: been found? To answer that, we have to go back
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  Speaker 1: before the trial, before the suspect, before the missing person investigation.
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  Speaker 1: Because this story began with 21-year-old Kelsey Schelling, a daughter,
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  Speaker 1: a friend, and a woman who had just learned she
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: was pregnant. On February 4, 2013, Kelsey drove from Denver
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  Speaker 1: to Pueblo, believing she was going to meet the father
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  Speaker 1: of her unborn child. Instead, she vanished. What followed became
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: an eight-year puzzle built from surveillance footage, cell phone records,
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  Speaker 1: bank transactions, and the movements of Kelsey's black Chevrolet Cruze.
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  Speaker 1: Her family refused to stop searching. Prosecutors eventually made the
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: extraordinary decision to try a murder case without ever recovering
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  Speaker 1: the victim. And years after Kelsey disappeared, another woman, someone
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  Speaker 1: who had never met her, inserted herself into the life
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  Speaker 1: of the man at the center of the investigation. She
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  Speaker 1: got to know him. She dated him. She listened. And eventually,
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  Speaker 1: she took the witness stand. This is the story of
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  Speaker 1: Kelsey Schelling. Long before Kelsey Schelling's name appeared on national news,
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  Speaker 1: before investigators searched for her, before prosecutors stood before a
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  Speaker 1: jury trying to prove a murder without a body, she
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  Speaker 1: was simply a young woman trying to figure out adulthood.
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  Speaker 1: Kelsey Jean Schelling was 21 years old. She had grown
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  Speaker 1: up in Colorado, surrounded by a close-knit family, especially her mother,
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  Speaker 1: Laura Saxton. By 2013, Kelsey had moved to Denver, was working,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: and was building a life of her own. Friends described
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: her as kind, dependable, and deeply connected to the people
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  Speaker 1: she loved. She regularly stayed in touch with family and friends,
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  Speaker 1: an important detail once investigators had to decide whether she
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: could have left voluntarily. At trial, the prosecutors returned to
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: this point repeatedly. Before jurors heard about surveillance footage or
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: ATM withdrawals, they first had to understand who Kelsey was
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: and whether disappearing without a word fit the life she
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: had been living. Several years earlier, while attending Northeastern Junior
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: College in Sterling, Colorado, Kelsey met a fellow student named
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Dante Lucas. Friends later described the relationship as on-again, off-again,
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  Speaker 1: They broke up and reconciled more than once. By early 2013,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: the relationship no longer appeared stable, but they were still communicating.
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  Speaker 1: Then everything changed. Kelsey learned she was pregnant. According to
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: later court testimony and reporting, she believed Dante was the
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: father of her baby. According to Laura Saxton, Kelsey wasn't
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: talking about running away from her future. She was trying
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: to figure out how to move forward with it. Laura,
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  Speaker 1: her mom, has publicly said she assured her daughter that
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  Speaker 1: whatever happened, whether Dante wanted to be involved or not,
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  Speaker 1: she would not be facing motherhood alone. Laura would later
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  Speaker 1: remember telling her daughter, I will support you whether Dante
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  Speaker 1: is in the picture or not in the picture. It's
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: going to be okay. Looking back years later, Laura said
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Kelsey's reaction never suggested someone preparing to walk away from
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  Speaker 1: her life. Quote, she was happy. She wanted that baby.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: She wanted to be a mom. Quote, That reassurance later
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  Speaker 1: mattered at trial. Prosecutors argued Kelsey had family, support, plans,
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  Speaker 1: and a child on the way. She had reasons to stay.
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  Speaker 1: On the morning of February 4, 2013, Kelsey attended a
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: prenatal appointment in Denver. The appointment confirmed she was approximately
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  Speaker 1: eight weeks pregnant. According to the federal civil complaint later
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  Speaker 1: filed by her family, Dante Lucas and his mother had
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  Speaker 1: been calling and texting Kelsey before the appointment. encouraging her
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  Speaker 1: to come to Pueblo. Rather than canceling her doctor's visit,
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  Speaker 1: Kelsey chose to keep the appointment first and then make
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  Speaker 1: the drive south afterward. That sequence mattered. Kelsey kept the
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  Speaker 1: medical appointment, confirmed the pregnancy, and only then left Denver.
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  Speaker 1: According to investigators, she got into her black Chevy Cruze
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  Speaker 1: and headed south toward Pueblo, a drive of roughly two
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  Speaker 1: hours along Interstate 25. We can't know what Kelsey was
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  Speaker 1: thinking during that drive. What we do know is what
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  Speaker 1: she expected at the end of it. She believed she
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: was meeting the father of her unborn child to discuss
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: their future. By the next morning, Kelsey would be gone.
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  Speaker 1: So on the afternoon of February 4th, Kelsey drove that
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  Speaker 1: two hours to Pueblo to meet Dante because Dante, according
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: to the civil complaint later filed by Kelsey's family, Lucas
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: had been urging her to come to Pueblo. So they
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: were encouraging her to make that trip. Those communications helped
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  Speaker 1: explain why Kelsey willingly drove more than 100 miles that evening.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: At some point after leaving Denver, Kelsey arrived in Pueblo.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: According to investigators, the agreed-upon meeting location was the Walmart
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: located at 4080 West Northern Avenue. It was approximately 11.20 p.m.
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  Speaker 1: That's one of the first timestamps in this case that
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  Speaker 1: investigators were able to verify with confidence. Kelsey pulled into
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  Speaker 1: the parking lot, but Dante wasn't there, at least not
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  Speaker 1: where she expected him to be. According to the family's lawsuit,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Lucas continued communicating with Kelsey after she arrived, instructing her
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: to wait and directing her to other locations rather than
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: immediately meeting her. Prosecutors would later argue that those messages
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: documented an evening that wasn't unfolding the way Kelsey believed
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: it would. She waited. Minutes turned into an hour, and
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: then just after midnight, Investigators believe Kelsey sent what became
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: one of the most significant text messages in the entire case.
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  Speaker 1: At approximately 12.32 a.m., she texted Lucas, asking where he
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  Speaker 1: was and telling him that she had already been waiting
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  Speaker 1: for more than an hour. According to the civil complaint,
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  Speaker 1: this was the last communication confidently attributed to Kelsey before
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  Speaker 1: she disappeared. The message was pretty ordinary. It didn't suggest
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  Speaker 1: Kelsey believed she was in danger. It sounded like someone
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  Speaker 1: a little annoyed that they were waiting for a person
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  Speaker 1: who had failed to show up. But because of what
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  Speaker 1: happened next, investigators would spend years studying that final exchange.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Communication did continue after that final known text. The complaint
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  Speaker 1: alleges that a call was placed to Kelsey's phone at
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: approximately 3.54 a.m. and further alleges that later messages sent
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  Speaker 1: from her phone appeared inconsistent with her normal writing style.
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  Speaker 1: Those allegations become part of the family's civil claims, though
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  Speaker 1: they should be distinguished from facts independently established at the
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  Speaker 1: criminal trial. Those details raised difficult questions. If Kelsey was
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  Speaker 1: no longer using her phone, who was? If someone else
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  Speaker 1: sent those messages, why? And if Lucas truly hadn't met Kelsey,
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  Speaker 1: how did investigators later place him in possession of her
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  Speaker 1: car less than 12 hours later? At that moment, though,
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  Speaker 1: No one was asking those questions. Laura Saxton wasn't calling hospitals.
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  Speaker 1: Friends weren't organizing searches. As far as anyone knew, Kelsey
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  Speaker 1: had simply gone to meet someone she trusted. But by
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: the following morning, something happened that transformed this case forever.
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  Speaker 1: Surveillance cameras captured Kelsey's black Chevy Cruze. Only, Kelsey wasn't
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  Speaker 1: driving it. By the morning of February 5th, 2013, so
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: the next day, Kelsey Schelling had effectively disappeared. but no
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: one knew that yet. To the outside world, Tuesday morning
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  Speaker 1: looked like any other. But while Kelsey had seemingly vanished,
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  Speaker 1: something connected to her kept moving. Her black Chevy Cruze.
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  Speaker 1: Much of the case would eventually revolve around that one vehicle.
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  Speaker 1: There was no known crime scene, no body, no witness
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  Speaker 1: who could tell detectives what happened. Instead, prosecutors treated Kelsey's
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  Speaker 1: car as a silent witness. It couldn't tell investigators what happened,
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  Speaker 1: but every place it appeared, every minute it moved, every
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  Speaker 1: surveillance camera that captured it became another piece of the puzzle.
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  Speaker 1: So at approximately 11.39 a.m. on February 5th, so like
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I said, this is the next day after she had
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: driven down to Pueblo, surveillance cameras captured one of the
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: most important moments in the investigation. A man drove Kelsey's
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  Speaker 1: Chevy Cruze to an ATM. Prosecutors identified that man as
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  Speaker 1: Dante Lucas. According to investigators, Lucas withdrew $ 400 using Kelsey's
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  Speaker 1: debit card. Kelsey herself was not visible in the surveillance footage.
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  Speaker 1: Less than 12 hours earlier, Kelsey had driven to Pueblo
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  Speaker 1: to meet him, and now he was driving her vehicle
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  Speaker 1: and using her ATM card. Obviously, this doesn't prove murder.
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  Speaker 1: And there are possible innocent explanations. Maybe Kelsey loaned him
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  Speaker 1: the car or asked him to withdraw money. or let
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  Speaker 1: him use her money regularly. That is why prosecutors never
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  Speaker 1: asked the jury to view the ATM footage in isolation.
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  Speaker 1: They argued it was one piece of a much larger pattern.
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  Speaker 1: After leaving the ATM, surveillance continued documenting the movements of
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  Speaker 1: Kelsey's cruise. According to the family's lawsuit, Lucas drove the
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  Speaker 1: vehicle back to the Walmart parking lot where Kelsey had
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  Speaker 1: waited the night before. The complaint alleges he parked the cruise,
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  Speaker 1: walked behind the store, and was picked up by his mother.
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  Speaker 1: Sarah Lucas, and another family member of his, Vivian Lucas.
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  Speaker 1: These details are allegations from the family's civil complaint, and
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  Speaker 1: not every part of that account was independently established at
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  Speaker 1: the criminal trial. Investigators were not relying on memory. They
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  Speaker 1: were following surveillance cameras minute by minute. But the cruise
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  Speaker 1: wasn't finished telling its story. According to the lawsuit, the
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  Speaker 1: vehicle remained in the Walmart parking lot for roughly 18
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  Speaker 1: hours longer. their surveillance cameras captured another person approaching the
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  Speaker 1: car and driving away. That raised an entirely new set
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  Speaker 1: of questions. Who was driving? Why move the vehicle again?
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  Speaker 1: Was that person acting alone? Or at someone else's direction?
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  Speaker 1: Those questions became part of the broader investigation, though not
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: every detail could ultimately be answered with certainty. Eventually, investigators
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  Speaker 1: located Kelsey's Chevy Cruze at St. Mary Corwin Medical Center
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  Speaker 1: in Pueblo. Once again, surveillance cameras had captured its arrival.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Footage showed someone parking the vehicle before walking away. At
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: first glance, finding the car might seem like a breakthrough.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: In reality, it created even more work. Because now investigators
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: had to answer another question. Could the car tell them
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  Speaker 1: what happened to Kelsey? Crime scene technicians carefully processed the vehicle.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: They searched for fingerprints, DNA, hair, fibers, biological evidence, anything
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  Speaker 1: that might explain what happened after Kelsey arrived in Pueblo.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Investigators documented numerous items from the vehicle and examined everything
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: from fingerprints to the vehicle's navigation system and OnStar data.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: The lawsuit also criticizes aspects of how certain evidence was
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: handled during the investigation. Those concerns later became central to
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: the family's lawsuit. The complaint alleged that opportunities had been
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: missed and that evidence should have been handled differently. The
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: defendants disputed those claims. Regardless of the legal outcome, the
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: lawsuit shows the family's growing frustration as the investigation stretched
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: from weeks into months and eventually into years. Investigators did
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: not find one dramatic piece of forensic evidence that solved
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: this case. There was no blood inside the car, conclusively
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: linking it to a homicide. No murder weapon. Instead, they
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: kept returning to something less dramatic. The movement. Movement of
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  Speaker 1: the car, movement of Kelsey's debit card, movement of cell phones,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: and movement of people. Every surveillance camera captured another few
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: seconds investigators could compare against phone records, interviews, and later testimony.
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  Speaker 1: What they did not have, though, was proof beyond a
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  Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. And for the next several years, That's exactly
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  Speaker 1: what they would spend their time trying to build. For
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Kelsey Schelling's family, the days after her disappearance became weeks.
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  Speaker 1: Weeks to months, months to years. And despite everything investigators
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: had collected, Kelsey was still missing. That's one of the
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: hardest realities of a no-body homicide investigation. Detectives may strongly
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: suspect what happened, but suspicion isn't enough. Prosecutors have to
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: prove a crime occurred, and without a body, that becomes
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: one of the most difficult burdens in criminal law. Laura
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Saxton refused to let her daughter disappear from public memory.
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  Speaker 1: She gave interviews, organized searches, spoke at community events, and
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: worked with volunteers. She pleaded with anyone who might know
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: something to come forward. Eventually, the family's frustration with the
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: investigation reached a breaking point. In 2016, that's when Laura
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: filed a federal civil lawsuit against the city of Pueblo,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: members of the Pueblo Police Department, and others involved in
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: the investigation. The lawsuit alleged numerous investigative failures, including claims
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: that evidence wasn't processed, surveillance opportunities were missed, and additional
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: steps should have been taken during the investigation. But it
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: also showed exactly where Laura believed the investigation to have
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: fallen short. The lawsuit points to concerns about the handling
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: of her vehicle, digital evidence, surveillance footage, and investigative decisions.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Whatever the ultimate merits of each allegation, one thing was clear.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Laura wasn't waiting for answers. She was fighting for them.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Even with that pressure, the case still seemed stuck. And
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: public attention faded. Then something happened that almost no one
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: saw coming. It wasn't new DNA. It wasn't the discovery
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: of Kelsey's remains. It wasn't a sudden confession. It was
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: another young woman. A woman who had never met Kelsey,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: never met Laura, had no official role in the investigation.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: but she couldn't stop thinking about the case. Her name
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: was Lauren Sir. She was about to make one of
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: the most unusual decisions we've ever covered on this podcast.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: By 2017, Kelsey Schelling had been missing for four years.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Investigators had a timeline that pointed repeatedly toward Dante Lucas.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: But suspicion, even strong suspicion, is not the same as
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: proving murder. So Lauren did not know Kelsey, like I said,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: She wasn't employed by law enforcement. She wasn't working undercover.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Lauren later explained exactly what motivated her. Quote, She simply
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: described her original goal. Quote, Quote, According to Lauren's public interviews,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: she eventually reached out to Dante Lucas. This part of
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: the story does get a little exaggerated sometimes just because
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: it is pretty out there. But to be clear, Lauren
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: was not a police officer, and the available reporting doesn't
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: support the claim that investigators recruited her to go undercover
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: or anything like that. These initial decisions were hers entirely,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: and only later did she become an important witness. The
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: truth is unusual enough without turning her into an undercover operative.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: A private citizen. Willing to build a relationship with a
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: man she believed might have gotten away with murder. So
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: it began with a simple conversation. Messages, getting to know
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: one another. Eventually, those conversations became dates. Then a relationship.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: The more time Lauren spent with Lucas, the more he talked.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: According to Lauren's later testimony, Lucas discussed Kelsey frequently. He
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: described her as an ex-girlfriend, and he denied murdering her.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: But he also made statements about the case that caught
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Lauren's attention. He admitted to driving Kelsey's Chevy Cruze. He
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: admitted to moving the vehicle after her disappearance. Those admissions
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: matter because the surveillance had already placed Lucas behind the wheel.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Lauren's account did not create that evidence, but it corroborated it.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: During later interviews, Lauren described Lucas as someone who could
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: become emotional when talking about Kelsey. She testified that he cried,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: that he insisted he hadn't killed her. Yet, at the
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: same time, portions of his explanations about the events surrounding
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Kelsey's disappearance appeared inconsistent with other evidence investigators had gathered.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: That inconsistency would become important during the trial. Jurors weren't
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: simply deciding whether Lucas had driven Kelsey's car. They were
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: deciding whether they believed his explanations. So if he's changing
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: his story back and forth, that makes him way less credible. Then,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: this relationship that began because Lauren wanted to figure out
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: answers to this case. There was a big turn. Lucas
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: proposed marriage to Lauren. Lauren has publicly described him crying
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: and hyperventilating during the proposal. Lauren later described the emotional
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: conflict she experienced while spending time with Lucas. quote, he
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: has this way about him that makes you feel so
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: sorry for him. He comes off so lost and hurt.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: In the back of my mind, I always kept that
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: he is potentially a murderer, quote. By that point, she
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: knew she couldn't continue the relationship. She ended it. It
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: would be inaccurate to say Lauren solved the case. She
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: strengthened an investigation that had already been underway for years.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: She did not replace the surveillance, the ATM footage, the
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: digital evidence, but she became another witness whose account prosecutors
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: could compare against the existing record. After years of waiting,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: detectives believed they had finally reached that point. For the
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: first time since Kelsey disappeared, prosecutors believed they could prove
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: something that had once seemed almost impossible, that even without
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: recovering Kelsey, they could prove she had been murdered. So
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: now prosecutors have to build a murder case without a body.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: And by the time prosecutors decide to charge Dante Lucas
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: with first-degree murder, they knew exactly what the defense was
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: going to say. Ladies and gentlemen, where is the body?
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: It's one of the oldest and most powerful arguments in
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: criminal law. If no one has found the victim, how
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: can anyone say with certainty a murder even occurred? In
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: many murder cases, prosecutors build around one overwhelming fact. A confession, DNA,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: a murder weapon, an eyewitness. In Kelsey Schelling's case, there
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: was none of these things. Instead, prosecutors built what lawyers
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: sometimes call a circumstantial case. And circumstantial does not automatically
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: mean weak. Fingerprints, DNA... and surveillance footage can all be circumstantial.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: The legal question is whether the evidence taken together proves
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's exactly what prosecutors
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: asked the jury to consider. So piece one, Kelsey never
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: came home. Prosecutors began with perhaps the simplest fact of
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: the entire case. Kelsey disappeared forever. She never used bank
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: accounts again. She never contacted her mother. She never returned
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: to work. She never sought medical care for her pregnancy
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: that had just been confirmed. So even if she had
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: run away and wanted to start a new life, she
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: would have had to go to a doctor at some point.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Prosecutors argued that wasn't the behavior of someone voluntarily starting over.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: It was consistent with someone whose life had ended. Piece
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: two is opportunity. So prosecutors had to establish an opportunity.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: They argued Dante had been communicating with Kelsey before she
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: drove to Pueblo. She made the trip because she expected
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: to meet him. She arrived. She waited. She sent the
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: now-famous text asking where he was after waiting for an
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: hour in a Walmart parking lot. I would be pissed.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Because it establishes something critical. The last known plans Kelsey
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: had involved Dante Lucas. Prosecutor Kyle McCarthy later explained why
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: the text message mattered. Quote, We know that that's his phone.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: He admitted to those text messages. We know that that's
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: his thoughts and feelings about it. That's direct evidence. Piece three,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: possession of the car. So next, prosecutors turned to that
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: surveillance footage. It was a video. Less than 12 hours
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: after Kelsey arrived in Pueblo, the cameras caught Lucas driving
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: her car. He withdrew hundreds of dollars from her debit card,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: and Kelsey wasn't there. Again, prosecutors didn't argue this proved
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: murder by itself. Instead, they asked, why would Lucas have
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Kelsey's car and Kelsey's debit card if Kelsey herself was
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: nowhere to be found? Piece four being the timeline. Detectives
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: reconstructed nearly every significant movement investigators could verify. The doctor's appointment,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: the drive from Denver, Walmart, the final text, the ATM,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: returning to Walmart, and the abandoned car. And then piece five,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Lucas's own statement. Prosecutors also compared Lucas's statement over time.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Detectives had interviewed him. Lauren later testified about conversations she
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: had with him years after. Prosecutors argued that portions of
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Lucas's explanation changed as investigators uncovered more evidence. In any
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: criminal trial, jurors are allowed to consider credibility. Is someone's
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: stories consistent? Does it match the evidence? So prosecutors argued
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: those inconsistencies matter. And he was being inconsistent. He would
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: change his story. Piece six was Lauren's testimony. Lauren wasn't
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: presented as someone who solved the case. She couldn't tell
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: jurors what happened on February 4th. She wasn't there. Instead,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: prosecutors used Lauren to corroborate parts of the investigation that
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: they had already spent years building. According to her testimony,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Lucas admitted driving the cruise, he discussed moving the vehicle,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: and he talked about Kelsey. Her testimony fit into an
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: investigative framework that already existed. It was just another piece
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: confirming what detectives have already believed. Prosecutors also acknowledged what
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: they didn't have. They told the jurors there was no body,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: no murder weapon, no eyewitness, no confession. And yet, they
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: argued the absence of those things didn't erase everything that
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: they did have. The defense saw the same evidence and
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: reached a completely different conclusion. They argued investigators had built
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: a theory, not proof. They challenged witnesses. They questioned assumptions.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: They emphasized the lack of forensic evidence directly proving how
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: or where Kelsey died. And perhaps most importantly, They reminded
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: jurors that Lucas didn't have to prove his innocence. The
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: burden rested entirely on the prosecution. If reasonable doubt remained,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: the law required a verdict of not guilty. And that's
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: where the case stood. Now, only 12 people could decide
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: which side was right. So the verdict. By early 2021,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: more than eight years had passed since Kelsey Schelling disappeared.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Now a jury would decide one question. Did Dante Lucas
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: intentionally murder Kelsey Schelling? When the trial finally began in
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Pueblo County District Court, jurors weren't being asked to solve
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: every mystery surrounding Kelsey's disappearance. Their responsibility was much narrower.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Had prosecutors proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Dante Lucas
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: intentionally caused Kelsey's death? Laura Saxton, her mother, also took
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: the witness stand, and it was explaining about who Kelsey was.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Jurors heard about her daughter's close relationship with her family,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: her excitement about becoming a mother, her plans for the future.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: They argued Kelsey had every reason to continue living the
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: life she had been building. It was whether Kelsey had
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: voluntarily disappeared at all. But then came one of the
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: trial's most anticipated witnesses, Lauren Sir. By the time she
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: entered the courtroom, jurors had already heard about all the
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: surveillance footage, all the timeline stuff, yada, yada, yada. But
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Lauren's testimony was She testified about her relationship with Lucas,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: the conversations they shared, his descriptions of Kelsey, his admission
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: about driving and moving her car, which is huge because
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: if you admit to moving her car after she died, well,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: or after she's disappeared, then like, okay, well, where'd she
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: go then? Did she tell you you're telling me she
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: just disappeared and then you took her car? Why? The
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: defense's point was simple. Credibility was not automatic and Lauren's
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: account had to be tested against the rest of the evidence.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: So after the jury deliberated, On the charge of first-degree murder,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: the jury found Dante Lucas guilty. The courtroom had finally
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: answered the legal question that had remained unresolved since February
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: of 2013. Dante Lucas was later sentenced to life imprisonment
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: without the possibility of parole, the mandatory sentence for the conviction.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: For prosecutors and investigators, it was a rare murder conviction
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: in a case where the victim's body had never been recovered.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: For Laura Saxton, it meant accountability. Laura later reflected on
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: the verdict, quote, it was just so emotional for everybody,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: for both sides. I mean, it's a sad story. It's
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: a sad situation that didn't have to end up like
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: this if he had just let her come home, quote.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: But accountability isn't always the same as closure. Because despite
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: the guilty verdict, one question remained exactly as it had
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: been the day Kelsey disappeared. Where is Kelsey Schelling? And
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: one of the biggest takeaways about this, too, is the
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: fact that Lauren Serr was so brave to insert herself
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: like that. I'm definitely not encouraging people to do that,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: to try to start dating people who are potentially murderers,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: but that was kind of the final piece of the
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: puzzle that investigators needed to solve this case, which is
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: just wild. Laura has often said that despite the conviction,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: something is still missing. Quote, I'm never going to recover
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: without getting her back. I still have nowhere to go
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: take flowers, to go sit and talk with her, Take
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: her balloons on her birthday. Go to her on holidays.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: I have nothing. Dante took that away from me. If
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: you enjoyed today's story, follow the show and share it
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: with someone. Stay curious. Thanks for listening to Cat Has Questions.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, follow the show and share
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: it with someone who loves a good spiral. See you
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: next week.