Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / DRYE Fan Founder/CEO Peter Williams | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 51
Transcript
- speaker-0: All right, everyone, welcome back to another incredible episode of Beyond the Trailhead. ⁓ this week ⁓ we have a great guest from ⁓ the outdoor retailer ⁓ conference. ⁓ we met I met somebody there. I always say we, but ⁓ my wife and I do this business together. And so I always say we, but I met ⁓ him at Outdoor Retailer. He had a great product that probably is gonna help a lot of people ⁓ out on the trail when you're doing sports and all those good things. ⁓ Peter, thanks so much for being on the podcast today. I appreciate you being here. speaker-1: Yeah, thanks, Greg. Thanks for having me. speaker-0: Awesome. And your company is drier. ⁓ I'm not gonna ruin anything about your your product. So I'm gonna let you kind of explain it and stuff like that. But sure, I I'm waiting and hoping and praying like you come out with some other products soon, which I know you are. ⁓ but without further ado, tell us yeah who you are, what your company is exactly, and then ⁓ how you got into this whole space that you that you have. speaker-1: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I'm Peter Williams. I created a product called Dry Fan. ⁓ it's I I put it called. speaker-0: I called it dryer earlier. I keep keep adding an R. speaker-1: The brand is, you know, on the nose. I mean, I wanted it to be super simple to understand. So ⁓ it is a dryer. It is ⁓ a product designed ⁓ simply to dry out hydration reservoirs or hydration bladders. ⁓ and it is it's designed in a way for me I thought was advantageous to make it small and portable. ⁓ so it's a it's a rechargeable ⁓ fan that you can use a USB C cable to recharge it. It's got lithium ion batteries. ⁓ it's modular in nature. So I've got these adapter rings that attach to it. So the idea there was, you know, first made for camelback because that's the product that I use the most, but ⁓ with the hope that ⁓ it could evolve to then fit other brands. So what you were alluding to is is the hope that I've got accessories to fit fit the hydration reservoirs that you're using that the There are products in the work for that. but it was designed initially, you know, with that in mind, that if it works for what I'm, you know, originally creating it for, will it work for other stuff? Because I know there's there's a lot of brands out there. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. So so how did you even think I it's I feel like it's such an easy product in my mind, but you know, it's like always the easiest products that you never think about. So how did you get into this space? How did you create the product? What was the idea behind it? Or yeah, just get get it started on the whole the background of it. speaker-1: Yeah, sure. So at at the outdoor retailer event ⁓ where we met, so many people came up and said things like, Why didn't I think of that? Or, ⁓ finally, you know, there's a solution for it. And it's it is super simple. I mean, ⁓ really it came out of just frustration. I was super annoyed that every time I would do a hike or do some kind of adventure, I'd, you know, I wanna bring my camel back with me because I'm gonna be out all day. I need to stay hydrated and you know, I bring my my big bladder that's three liters with me so that I can have water all day, you know, especially if I'm going into, you know, hot environments and things like that. So but coming back was always such a pain. I mean, I dreaded coming home with it 'cause I'm like, where ⁓ you know, I stick like a spoon in it in my kitchen and put it on the dish rack or it's on the counter and it would take, you know days or longer for it to dry out. I live in California. It's not super humid here. It's probably worse for other regions. But ⁓ you know, I'd put it on the counter and I'd I'd go to check it to see, you know, can I put this away? I don't I don't really want it laying out all the time. And it just I could never put it away. And then I, you know, how it really came about is I did this ⁓ motorcycle adventure through ⁓ Utah, the backcountry discovery route. And it was June A few years ago, I had my three-liter bladder and two platypus backups that I was using every day, basically drinking, you know, nine plus liters a day. And at the end of that trip, I had now had all these reservoirs to deal with. And and I was just so annoyed that there wasn't a better way ⁓ to figure out how to dry these. So I started looking for solutions and there were very few. And so I decided to make one. And ⁓ I I really just bought a handheld fan and I made my own version of one. I I took a a camelback that had died and I cut it apart and I glued the pieces together and I and I I used it and it worked so good. Yeah. And I was just using it for myself and I started thinking about it and thinking, you know, I can't be the only person with this issue. And so I decided to to embark on the adventure of turning it into a product. So ⁓ this is really my own my first product of my own that I've I've ventured out on. and and what I've realized so far is it's being met with ⁓ great, you know, I wouldn't say fanfare, but excitement because everybody's got this issue. Every outdoors person of any kind literally is dealing with speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ my gosh. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like we, you know, when you use your bladder, I'm using it on a daily basis or s every other day. And half the time it's never dry because it's just always sitting out. And like like I was telling you or just before we got on is like I I my bladders, I I three days ago I was basically cleaning them out because they were like moldy, 'cause they were never getting dry. And I had to switch out a bottle and buy a new one. And I'm like, man, I this would have lasted way longer if I could just dry it out really, really quick. And I've tried everything. I've tried like the bottle, the baby bottle rack that I bought and hang upside down to get the water to to drip out, but it's still there's no airflow and everything else. And ⁓ like you said, like it's such a simple product in in the terms of like, ⁓ why didn't I think of that? It's like the I think that's the greatest part of it. It's you're the person that goes, I'll do it. Right, as opposed to everybody that just kind of thinks about it and stuff like that. So, ⁓ so tell it tell the listeners and the viewers kind of like your background, where you come from and and 'cause, you know, you created this, but I know that you have another job ⁓ in the back and stuff like that and you've been doing it for a few years. So speaker-1: Sure. Well, you know, I do have the advantage that I have ⁓ an agency. I have a company that does primarily graphic design, ⁓ but historically has done a a lot of creative ⁓ for marketing and advertising. And I started that company in San Francisco in 2014 and it has supported big names like Samsung. one of the departments over there was called the Samsung Strategy and Innovation Center. And basically for the Americos, it was where Samsung was developing new products. And as as their agency, we were always helping them in naming products, branding products, and then doing, you know, the launches of things when they were, you know, getting to a place where they, you know, thought the products were ready. And so I I experienced a lot of first hand, you know, development of products and witness how they were going through the process. And that always informed you know, all the work that we were doing as a creative company. And so when I came up with this idea, I thought, you know, I've been doing this for so long for everybody else. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna try it out and see if I can figure out, you know, what it takes to actually have the idea and build it out into an actual brand and and see, you know, what that what the challenges are and and just kind of have fun with it and do something that that is, you know, important to me just from the perspective of this is solving a real problem. speaker-0: Yeah. I think that's what a lot of people's ideas birth out of their own problem that you have personally. And then you go, man, I can't find a way to solve this problem. Let me go ahead and now f figure that out. So from from taking your prototype that you kind of just hack together, ⁓ and then like you just said, seeing the process ⁓ other people did, did that help you? Cause like even on on this podcast, we try to let people know other people's ⁓ ups and downs so that like they don't have to go through big pains and everything else. So sure. What are some lessons that you learned from them so that you didn't have to go through those pains like most people would developing your product? speaker-1: Yeah, so ⁓ the I've learned so much along the along the way over the years. Yeah. ⁓ but one of the things that I knew right away is that I had to get some help. ⁓ I needed somebody to really help with product design. I needed to work with somebody who not only could understand what I was trying to make, but help make improvements to really give it that modular system and all those things. So I I spent quite a bit of time looking for an industrial designer. ⁓ that I could work with that could really, you know, I I mailed them my original ⁓ working fan so that they could see what it did. And I mailed them a a camelback product and said, hey, you know, this is this is the solve I need. And ⁓ I think that was probably the best decision at the beginning is to not try to figure out how to do that on my own. I mean, I I know it certainly saved time, but also ⁓ the person that I'm working with has a lot of experience working with manufacturers. So, you know, the when you're coming up with a product and you're going to have an idea, it's also important to be considerate of, you know, what does it actually take to make this a something that can be mass produced and, you know, can scale if it should take off. And so I I had that in mind from the beginning. And so I worked with somebody and, you know, really tried to To make all the considerations that a user would benefit from. So that's, you know, putting the buttons on the other side where you can see them when you've had put it ⁓ you know, against your reservoir or whatever. ⁓ and then other things like making it a rechargeable thing. So if you want to take it with you on a trip, you don't have a massive appliance, right? That's sitting at home that's not functional. ⁓ and then there are there are some other things that I learned, you know, in my experience, which is making considerations of the intellectual property. So going through the process of, you know, once I had designs made, getting patents started, you know, so that it in conversations, which I have had some with, you know, Camelback specifically for licensing, they're they seem really interested. But I couldn't show it to them if I didn't already pursue the intellectual property side of things. So ⁓ those are things that You know, if anybody's gonna start with a project, you know, work with really good designers and be considerate of ⁓ you know, all the things that you're creating and ⁓ not that you need to hide your idea because lots of people have ideas. Taking it from, you know, your concept or your vision and actually producing it is such a leap. ⁓ but you do if you are gonna talk to the the people that are in the industry, you know. Doing proper protections that I think is important stuff. speaker-0: No, that's cool. going back to what you said about the person who helped you design it. ⁓ you know, they like you said, they know ⁓ manufacturers, they probably know the materials even. Like, hey, this material, like I've talked to other people that have designed their product with any number of materials, and then they find out later on that they spent a bunch of money on something that they can't use that material with, or that material cracks really easily. You know, all those different things. And then the thing you just said about the patent and looking at that kind of thing. ⁓ it's it's funny and I always bring it back to when I used to do wedding photography, is I was using an outside editor that I had found on Fiverr. Yeah. Right. I think it was Fiverr. And I realized I'm sending him all this footage ⁓ of a wedding. And now he's I find out that that country, those people take that and they sell. my footage as like stock footage and stuff like that. ⁓ wow. And I'm just thinking like, you know, if you were to go and find s a designer or whatever on those platforms where you're in another country where maybe it's a lot harder to hold those people to the laws that we have here. Yeah. Even if you had a patent here in America, it's gonna be really hard to go after, you know, Joe Schmoe over in whatever country and they might have the ability to manufacture your product. So ⁓ yeah. I don't know if you think that I'm just thinking from a relevancy side from people who are looking at it, because I know a lot of people will go on a cheaper place than and there's as long as you have those contracts in place and stuff like that and you know you can do that. But I feel like I'm just thinking out loud that ⁓ after doing that, I'm like, man, I never use them unless I know that they're in in like North America where I can pretty much hold them accountable. speaker-1: Yeah, that's I mean, that's a great perspective and I think really good advice. I you know, fortunately the person I work with in for industrial design, he's based in the US, he's in New York. ⁓ he is more expensive because of that. Mm-hmm. ⁓ but that was the consideration. ⁓ you know, part of the consideration is is cost, but other for me is, you know, can they can we have a meeting that's not in the middle of the night? And those sorts of things are important too. But ⁓ You know, the I did I did find a really good contract ⁓ to help protect even the process. And I it just that required a lot of research. I didn't know, you know, what that contract should even look like, but it's more than an NDA. ⁓ you have to have a document that protects that that is a non disclosure but also an invention protection ⁓ document. And, you know, how do you find it? I mean Just do a lot of research really. And then if if you have the resources, you have to have somebody review it and sign off and say, Yeah, this this will stand if you needed if you needed it to, because you know, unfortunately, as soon as you have an idea, everybody says, you know, that's my idea, basically. And, you know, it it gets exciting for all kinds of people that you don't want in involved, essentially. And so, But that I mean, that's a good point. You know, people outside of the US, there there are different rules and there are different expectations about usage. ⁓ and so even when you're making considerations on patents, that's a whole that's a whole ball of wax right there. ⁓ because it gets really costly. I don't know if you've tried to protect something before there's a cost for the US patent application process. And then There's a short window to expand that into other regions, ⁓ to make it qualify under the same parameters. And for every region there's additional costs. So it it can get really expensive really quick. So speaker-0: Yeah. You really gotta know, you gotta really love ⁓ love your product and know it's gonna is and that's I think part of starting your business is sometimes you have to take a a huge risk and and sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't, and hopefully it it goes it goes your way. I think your product kind of speaks for itself in that like ⁓ everybody it's one of those things that everybody's gonna need and they've always needed it. And so now it's just getting it in their hands. And a good thing is it's not some exorbent amount of money either, where you know, you're spending hundreds of dollars on something. It's not like that. So it's a lot, it's an easy buy for somebody to go and get something versus somebody who comes out with, you know, says, Hey, I'm inventing a new tent. It's gonna cost you 600 bucks. You hope that people are gonna start buying that tent versus versus your product. So I mean that that's that's awesome. So Going from I I I guess what year and maybe you said this, but what year did you create this in and how long did it take you to go from your prototype to getting ⁓ sale being able to do sales online? speaker-1: I th so I've been the very first one I made in twenty twenty four. Okay. I believe is my first prototype, you know, the the work the functional ⁓ proof of concept that I made. And then it's you know ⁓ around two years of development. ⁓ so that's that's going from that device to ⁓ a series of designs and kind of picking the features and and marrying those together. meanwhile I bought a 3D printer so that I could test the, you know, the design. I looking at the form factor is important. You know, you want to design something that is easy to use and is portable and all those things. So you know, lots of iterating on that. And then once it got into a place where I thought it was pretty close to what could be manufactured. Then it was the intellectual property side of things. So filing of patents and getting all the drawings made for that. ⁓ so yeah, it I I mean it's easily two solid plus years of product development. And then, you know, like I said, I've got an agency. I was able to fast track some of the creative stuff. I'm quite fortunate in that regard. So ⁓ the logo I did myself, my team was all busy, which is usually good thing if they're busy. So I I usually don't ⁓ push pixels too much these days, but I I made the logo and then I did some of the brand work. But then I had the team support on things like packaging, helping b you know get the website, you know, ⁓ ready to go and and building a system for graphics. You saw the booth at OR. ⁓ making a booth that stands out was super important. And so, you know, a lot of effort's gone into the brand development side of things, which is where I've always been sort of supporting, you know, these other companies that we work with. And so I feel like having a good product is definitely, you know, super important, but having a strong brand is also really important. And there's a lot of intention in the colors that I've chosen for the brand and the way the packaging looks. ⁓ you know, there there are other products out there that are using similar colors. So I'm purposely, you know, trying to ⁓ make associations to things like that. So speaker-0: No, I think that's great that you have the foresight to think about that stuff because you're in you're in the marketing game. And I think the biggest thing that I love telling people is you really you could have and not saying your product's crappy, but you could have a crappy product, but you could market the living daylights out of it really well and you could sell billions of dollars and you can have the most amazing product and terrible marketing and sell nothing. And so you've got both a great product and then you've got that knowledge that hey, I need good marketing. And I can't help push that enough on on people that you need a a great ⁓ marketing. You got a great team. It's not just a marketing person, it's like you've got a a team of people. So have you ever seen that that TV show? ⁓ it's called The Pitch. It was on A and D, I think. It was like they had like two seasons of it. speaker-1: I don't think I've seen the pitch. I mean, I'm a huge Shark fan a Shark Tank fan. You know, watched every episode of Shark Tank. speaker-0: So it's called the it's called the pitch. And what it was, it was like a big marketing TV show. And so they had like, I don't know, ⁓ I was referring to like nationwide would come and they would sit down with two marketing firms, and then they would say, Okay, this is what we need. And then those two firms would go out and you'd watch the behind the scenes reality TV show, them coming up with the ideas and the logos and the tagline and everything else. And then they'd come back and then they'd pitch. Their idea to the brand, and then that brand would choose which which ad advertising firm they would go with. And I was like, man, this is the coolest show ever. I'm so bummed. I think it only went for two seasons, or maybe even only one season, but like nine episodes. ⁓ but it it's so good. And I feel like everybody that's listening needs to go and watch that show. I'm sure you can find it somewhere. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. I'll check that out. When when you're when you're talking about this, the brand that I always think of when we're talking about really successful branding is Liquid Death, right? Yeah. They they have become, I think, a billion dollar business and they're selling water in a can. I mean, there are I mean it's incredible. So, you know, what but what they've done so successfully is they've marketed this image of water as kind of like, you know. This like gritty, yeah, you know, hard cool can that's it's like yeah, it's like the bad boy of water or something, or it's like, you know, liquid death is equivalent of, you know, drinking like a really powerful cocktail or something, but it's not. I mean, it's just water. But the it's so brilliant that their approach and it just says so much about smart marketing is you can put water in a can and make a billion dollars out of it. It's phenomenal. And you know, it's like If you can do that, then you know, with with the right approach, you know, there there aren't that many cases like that, but ⁓ that one stands out to me as exceptional achiev achievement of marketing. speaker-0: Yeah. That's cool. ⁓ I wanted to go a little bit into you going to OR and the booth. I know you just kind of alluded to the the the booth you had and having help putting that together. ⁓ I think I came over because I had seen I think it was a time lapse of you guys setting up your booth or something I had seen a real and I think that ⁓ OR had reposted it and I was like, ⁓ I want to go and take a look at this, you know, because it's it stood out and then the like you said, like the colors pop. on the show floor as well, out of you know, 'cause most people have like browns and everything else 'cause it's outdoorsy and everything. So, ⁓ was that your first trade show? speaker-1: It's the first trade show that I've done for something that is wholly my own. I've I've I've been to trade shows. I've attended many trade shows. I've supported trade shows ⁓ in a capacity of, you know, promoting them. I'm a photographer by trade too. ⁓ I used to do a lot of event photography and that included lots of trade shows. So I've been on the floor of many of them. I've seen lots of boosts and kind of I feel like I know speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: you know, I know some features of what make them successful. I mean, you know, the the challenge for OR is nobody really knows this brand dry yet. And you know, how much money it's a it's a huge investment really to go to one of these expos. And so it's how much am I gonna invest not only in all right, I've got my 10 by 10 square on the floor. Now I need to show something. Right. And so You know, the booth itself cost wise wasn't a whole lot. ⁓ but it's designed well. And so that's where I leaned on, you know, the expertise of my team to help with. But in being there, yes, we I was like, Well, let's let's take advantage of every opportunity from the setup to whatever. And so we yeah, we did a whole time lapse of the setup, we did a time lapse of the teardown, we did little videos to say, Hey, we're here and then hey, we're leaving and all those things to really ⁓ take full advantage of our time in Minneapolis. You know, we wanted to say, you know, we're here and and make as much noise about that as we could. And I'm glad it worked to drive traffic. ⁓ and it and it it and doing a time lapse, you know, having a cool angle and making it all come together and then having, you know, some fun, woody stuff to say on top helps drive people over. ⁓ it's just another it's part of the marketing. It's part of the bigger engine. You know, yeah. speaker-0: When when you do when you did the trade show, what was one thing that ⁓ cause I'm I'm kinda like you. I've I've photographer, I've shot a lot of trade shows. So when I would go and do my own trade show booth for at least for weddings, I knew that hey, I need to interact with people and not sit behind a table and not move or I need to I need to just look like I'm on Red Bull all day long and be excited about my product. versus, you know, just sitting there and going like, okay, because, you know, I saw other, you know, it doesn't matter what trade show you go to, you're gonna see other people there that are either, you know, we don't know what people are going through as well. So they could have had a bad day. ⁓ they could just be an employee that's that's hired from the local place that they're just running the booth and they have the five best statistics about it and they get your information. ⁓ you know for for someone who's going out and gonna go do their the next trade show. You know, what are some what are some tips? Cause it seems like when I walked by, Y'all's energy was was on like eleven and the product was great, it it popped out and then like the booth next to you guys was just really laid back and it was like they didn't want to be there. So ⁓ yeah, what are some success point pointers? speaker-1: Well, to be totally honest, I mean I've got a lot riding on it. ⁓ I mean I have I have you know so much time invested in this. I've I've my personal I bootstrapped this whole project. So my I'm financially invested in this. ⁓ I I believe in it too. I think this is a a product that people want and need. And so, you know, all those things together. make me highly, highly motivated. You know, I want I want people to like the product. I want people to ad adopt it. I want it to be, you know, part of everybody's regular outdoor kits, whether they bring it with them or whether it's, you know, part of their package at home for for caring for their ⁓ you know, outdoor stuff, because that's a that's a big thing for me is taking care of the stuff I buy. And so I wanted other people to know how much I put into it and how much I cared about it. And I at the event, I wasn't, you know, hyping it up like it's more than it is. People would walk over and I'd say, hey, I invented the fan. Just kidding. The fan was already invented. Yeah. But I gave it new I gave it new life. I gave it new purpose. And, you know, I think that's that's what would create success for anybody is if you're really invested in the thing and you go and show people the how much you care. then they they feel like they could care about it too and that, you know, I'm not just out there to, you know, make money and take advantage of the situation. So I I'm just really motivated by, you know, trying to promote the thing that I made. And I would say on top of that, I'm proud of this thing. I I have great pride in the fact that all right, I had an idea and I've had lots of ideas in the past and I just didn't move forward with them. And I didn't want any more of that sentiment of like, ⁓ I wish I would have tried that thing or somebody else came out with it later and I'm like, ⁓ I had that idea and you know, but nobody cares, right? So what matters is, you know, if you're gonna do it to to go all in. So I'm kinda all in at this point. Yeah. Really. No, yeah. speaker-0: I think when you're all in, like you said, you're you either can go for it and be excited about it or you can be kind of sad, like, ⁓ I'm all in and it's not working. I think the hard part for people is when they're all in and their product isn't a good product, it's how do you finally throw in the towel and go, I made a mistake, let's cut our losses. 'Cause it's like, you know, like you said, you like Shark Tank. I love Shark Tank. And all the sharks will sit be sitting there and they'll be like, Listen, you need to get out now. You've been wasting your money, you've had this product for 20 years and you've made right, you know, $15,000 in sales. Like stop now. You're hemorrhaging money. Go get a day job ⁓ somewhere, you know, that kind of thing. Not there's anything wrong with the day job, but like, you know, your idea has to has to be ⁓ something that people want to buy. speaker-1: So well I I think on that note though, if you know, I think this is a good product. I I don't know that every iteration or accessory that I'll ever make will be, you know, perfect. But ⁓ if your if your product or something that you're making isn't successful, it's it's one of those things where it's like, well, if you've tried, then you can be proud and then you can move on. You don't have to hang everything on one idea. And if you've only got one idea, I'd I'd be a little bit worried that maybe it's not worth pursuing because if I've got I've I've shown people my list. I literally have a hundred ideas. And you know, they're not all great, but some of them are. ⁓ but if you've only got one and you're hanging your hat on the one thing and it's like this or nothing, that I think that can be risky. And so, you know, ⁓ because there's no way to guarantee success. ⁓ and if if you've got all your eggs in one basket, that's just, you know it it can be disappointing. And you have to be you have to be willing, you know, to let's let it go if it's not gonna make it. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ I guess shifting back to your product a little bit, ⁓ are there any kind of a during development or even now, are there any kind of really big ⁓ crap moments where something didn't go right, maybe in the manufacturing process or all all those kind of things? I'm sure you ran into some hiccups. I think everybody ends up running into hiccups and learning from it. speaker-1: I mean it's daily. like what could I have done better? You know, there's everything from, you know, the digital side setting up, you know, selling on Amazon. There's almost a problem a day with Amazon. ⁓ if you haven't sold anything on there. ⁓ and sometimes it's not even really a problem, but they make it your problem until you say, Hey, this is an Amazon problem. ⁓ but from you know, the production of the product in the kit. I have ⁓ this component called the wire, the dry wire. And for specifically the Camelback Crux bags, the blue ones, ⁓ I wanted to be able to dry the hose out, which, you know, you can rinse it and do, you know, scrub it with scrubbers, but there's no way to dry those out. So I made this wire where you put a piece of microfiber on the end and you run it through and it wicks the water out of it. And, you know, it works. I think it works great. I mean, compared to all the alternatives, which is zero options. ⁓ it's fantastic. But the problem is in manufacturing, I could not get anybody to cut it. It's gotta be a very specific size so it doesn't get jammed up in there. Okay. And so I didn't have any way to have a mass produce. I I believe I have a solution now. So the next version or the next set of kits will have it, you know, come in it. But I open every box. And I insert those microfibers. I have to cut them in kind of a very manual way to to include them in every kit. But to me, it's an important part of the whole overall package is that this component is important. So I cut them and I count them and I put them in the box. And sometimes my kids and my wife help me. ⁓ And it's it's a huge is, I mean, so you know, for the the entrepreneurs or the startups that are in their garages or whatever, that's essentially what this is. They they came to me from the manufacturer, but they're not ready to go out. And so I have to I have to do this whole process here. And so I work at night, you know, I have my I use a cricket cutter that can cut fabric. And so I've got that machine running all the time and I'm down there packing those up. And it's a huge headache. But also I think it's just an important part of the overall experience when People get this that it that I've considered not only the reservoir but the the drinking hose. Yeah. ⁓ and then, you know, on the manufacturing side, it was I thought I had this perfect product developed and I thought everything would be ready to go. And as soon as the manufacturer received the files, you know, they had all these inputs I would say about you know how it could be improved or why am I even making this fan. We sell fans already. You could just buy your other fan and you you know, you name it with additional designs from them ⁓ in terms of, you know, how to improve the functionality of it. And some of that was was helpful and important, but what it causes is delay after delay after delay. So, you know The those are challenges that you just don't anticipate. You think you're gonna send it and they're gonna be like, hey, you worked with the best designer, didn't you? Because we can just crank this thing out and you learn that it requires a lot of additional manipulation to make it right. Yeah. And I'm not even done. It's not even I'm still making I still have to make changes. There's still things where, you know, now even though it's it's been produced and I tested, I'm like, you know, this could be better. Yeah. speaker-0: That's why speaker-1: So now I have to make it you know, even if it's incremental, I have to make it incrementally better. speaker-0: But that's good. I because I think as you know, as anybody gets their product out there, you're gonna have a lot more feedback now that you get in a lot of hands, not just yours and maybe some friends and family and a couple of people that you sent it to. Now you're gonna have hundreds of people saying, hopefully good stuff, but but at the same time, you also want like that negative stuff. So you can go, okay, I can like a perfect example is this podcast. I've done 48 episodes now. And I say, uh-huh, yeah, and uh-huh a lot. And someone finally called me out on it. And I was like, I can either be offended or I can cut out a lot of the uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh leading stuff. And I was like, I went to my wife and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna learn from this. I'm not gonna be offended. Because yeah, I do. And my wife said, Good, because I listened to your episodes and I'm like, I wanna tell you to not do that, but you're not gonna listen to me. But a stranger finally told you, and I'm like, Okay. Right. Great. So I have a sticky note in front of me that literally says no uh-s and uh-huh yeah, just occasional. And I'm so I'm constantly looking at it going, Okay, cut it back and and so it's been like three episodes of me doing it and ⁓ hopefully people notice it. But ⁓ that's funny. No speaker-1: I am getting feedback and you know the the vast majority is really positive. Yeah. One thing that, you know, and I purposely made the first product for Camelback because that's what I use. I've had my Camelback backpack for 25 years or something. Super long time. Maybe longer. and so I made it for that. But what I and I knew there there was great brand recognition, but what I didn't realize is Camelback is like Kleenex. People order the product and they say, Hey, this doesn't fit my camelback. And I what I'm doing now, because I've learned is saying, Could you please send me a photo of your hydration reservoir? And if there's any branding on it, make sure you include that in the picture so I can see what could be the problem. And what I'm finding is everybody calls any reservoir, any hydration bladder, they call it camelback. They say, ⁓ my camelback, but what they mean is my hydropack or my skillcraft bag or You name it a hundred other brands. Yeah. And and I didn't anticipate that. And so, you know, when I say, ⁓ I made this solution for Camelback, people get real excited and they're like, it doesn't fit. And so I don't have the perfect solution for everybody yet, but you know, I'm working towards that. But it's just interesting to realize that later, I, you know, the brand, that brand in sp in in particular has such reach. That people use it as a general term. speaker-0: Yeah. So how many you know, since you've been doing this now, now that you have to look at all the hydration bladders and everything else, w like are there like man, there's like a hundred of them or are they kind of keeping a little bit of a standard or do you find like some are similar to others and they're threading and everything? speaker-1: It's all over the map. I mean, honestly, there's a lot of them. I mean, there are a few bigger players. So Camelback, obviously, with the brand recognition. ⁓ there's a company called Hydropack, which is actually near where I'm based. ⁓ I'm based in Alameda, California, and they're over ⁓ in Oakland. ⁓ they make f not only their own products, but they white label for ⁓ Solomon, Nathan, Osprey, and I don't know, countless other brands. I mean, they're really big in the running space. ⁓ so that's a big one. But then originally one of my goals was ⁓ the US military, because almost all of our soldiers have some kind of backpack with a hydration hydration reservoir. And it used to be camelback, I think relatively exclusively, but now they're using a product called Skillcraft. And I'm only learning this as I'm getting into it and people are going to the website looking for a solution. So ⁓ I'm trying to make adapters fit a lot of different brands, but it's very hard actually to design for all of them. You can't there's no one size fits all, unfortunately. And so I thought it would be a little bit easier to make it, but I you know, I'm getting there. I think, you know, with a few iterations in and I'll have solutions for most of speaker-0: Yeah, 'cause you're I'm assuming you're doing injection molding, right, for for everything. So it's not like you could and I guess you could to some degree like say, Hey, I can create a three D model and sell three D parts to a certain extent and until you have a big enough demand for it, but it might not be advantageous to do that, right? For the the quantity. speaker-1: That's exactly what I'm doing. Yeah. That's what I'm doing. I do, you know, ⁓ I have some ⁓ some 3D prints made externally, but then I print some things here. But it's usually it as a way to say, you know, I'll try to accommodate your needs, I'll send you one. Bear in mind this is a prototype and this is 3D printed. This is not a you know production product. And so I've sent out quite a few of those actually. ⁓ including to retailers who are really interested in carrying the product. They want to know, you know, how it will work for other brands. ⁓ but it's not that's not a great solution, you know, for for mass production by any means. And injection molding, which is the process I'm using for these parts, is it's a long process. First they have to do a test mold, right? To make sure that the product design is is accurate for what you need. And then they have to do the the mass production mold, which takes a really long time to produce, actually. They're cutting these things ⁓ out of blocks of steel essentially so that they can hopefully make millions of them. ⁓ you know, I don't know if we'll make that many, but ⁓ that's the goal anyway. And so it it's it's a long process. It's an expensive process. And so you can't just come up with a new thing and s kind of just say, Yeah, go for it. I mean it's there's a lot of time and money invested in each each component you hold, ⁓ you know there's a lot of time and money in it. Yeah. speaker-0: I you make a It's easy and people go, ⁓ just come out with a new adapter. It's so easy. It's like when they people say, Hey, why don't you carry ⁓ a triple extra small size or whatever? Well, if I carry a triple extra small size, then I've got to order 5,000 of that thing for me to carry that one size when most people are a small, medium, and a large, right? Right. And I don't think a lot of people understand that. You know, I see a lot of people, and I think I've said it before, is like you see a lot of people kind of, well, why don't they have this size and this figure and this thing and everything else. I'm like, because it's one person making is like you're investing your own money, there's only so much you can do. ⁓ and you're not gonna make you know, you would love to make it for those people, but at the same time you just probably can't because you don't have the resources and you're not gonna make money in order to keep your business afloat to begin with. So speaker-1: Yeah. Well, I you know, I think that's important thing to note for your listeners if they are, you know, considering making a product ⁓ and you're looking for a manufacturer, understanding what their MOQ is, so their minimum order quantity is a discussion you're gonna wanna have with them early on. ⁓ because if you come up with a product and then you invest time working with them and establishing a relationship and you go as far as molds and everything and then You you go to place your first order and they say, ⁓ our MOQ is fifty thousand units. You're and you were hoping it was a thousand, you're gonna be in trouble. ⁓ because you've already spent all this time and money, you know, doing the some of that upfront work, and then you can't afford to get it produced. So ⁓ that that was something that my industrial designer who has connections with manufacturers was able to sort of clue me into. It's not information I had before. So I think it's worth sharing is, you know, find find things like that out, you know, what's your minimum order. And in some cases, if you're doing any kind of print on something, they may do a lower minimum order if you pay for some setup fees and things like that. So, you know, there's all these costs that creep into your your overall budget. And then you, you know, when speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: When you at least for me, when I first calculated what it would cost to manufacture this and get it landed here, you know, the price of that is doubled essentially. ⁓ speaker-0: Never met anybody that said it's come under budget. It's usually especially if it's their first thing, they're like, Wow, it was a lot more, it's double what we initially stalked talked about. It's like doing a home renovation. It never goes the way you wanted it to. speaker-1: Yeah. It's it's quite similar actually. ⁓ yeah, the bathroom that you wanted was budgeted for the tile you just didn't like, you know. So speaker-0: That's awesome. Well ⁓ yeah go ahead. No, I was gonna say, ⁓ just kinda going to I know we had talked about we're we're kind of talking about getting ⁓ feedback and then getting ⁓ manufacturing and stuff like that. Is there anything now that you've had the product out for a while that ⁓ you know, some customer stories or any kind of good feedback that you've gotten that's kind of been like kind of hit you real hard? speaker-1: Yeah, I think I before I even sold any, I gave some out to some friends, right? And you know, your friends are all gonna say, like, hey, that's really cool, good job. Right. ⁓ but I some of those first people I gave it to, you know, there's somebody in my neighborhood and our kids play sports together and he's a triathlete. So he said, Hey, give it to me because I I use Camelback for all my events and I know all these other triathletes. ⁓ And I'll, you know, I'll test it out. And I said, okay. So I gave it to him. Hadn't really heard back from him. and then I recently got together to do, you know, go see a baseball game. And he was like, Hey, I use that thing every time I go out. ⁓ that's awesome. He's he said it's really changed it for me. It's, you know, such a it's so much better than the way I used to take care of it. And I, you know, it's it's nice to hear just some Confirmation that the idea does work and that people will utilize it. ⁓ even if it's from somebody you know, to say, you know, that he didn't have to say anything about it. ⁓ and the fact that it it just creates a little bit of improvement for somebody for me is a big deal. ⁓ and then, you know, we like I said, we've got it in a store in North Carolina, and ⁓ we reached out to them just to say, hey, how's it going? You know, and you know, they've sold some and they said, Hey, We love this product. So just to hear a store even say that, you know, finally they have a solution. I think at OR when we were there, I'm pretty sure this is the store owner who said, you know, normally I just tell people to shove paper towels in ⁓ And he's like, Now I finally have like a real solution that I can offer where I didn't have one before. He said, you know, basically the DIY hacks is all they could tell people. And now this this gives a real way to solve for it. So yeah. That was really cool to hear. You know, that there's this is this is now ⁓ landing in a place where before they just said, you know, whatever at home tricks they were doing before. Yeah. speaker-0: No, that's cool. So I this just popped up in my head since you said that, like shoving things in there and stuff that so I know the fan is pretty big, right? And so that helps I think too with it being quiet, right? 'Cause I I was on the show floor, so it was it's noisy, so I wasn't able to hear it, but I pretty sure it's gonna be pretty quiet. 'Cause not like I think people think it's a hairdryer in your hair and it's like, no, it's like a it's like yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, it's I mean it's on right now. Yeah. ⁓ and and I didn't want it to be so powerful that it would, you know, blow your bag up or whatever. It's and you know, if you're gonna run it and you're gonna run it at night or something, I didn't want it to be disturbing. So, you know, it's powerful enough to generate airflow inside. And that's all you really need to do. I didn't I didn't ever think it ⁓ in terms of that, but you know, it does need to to provide enough airflow to dry it out. But yeah, it's quiet. It's super quiet. It's got three speeds and it's it's size wise, I actually wanted it to be relatively comfortable to hold, just like a handheld fan is. And actually by the way, I brought it to my local REI and they were considering, you know, carrying a local product. And the woman said, Can I just use it like this? And I said, Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Actually you can. Yeah. ⁓ that's what it's for, besides also, you know, the new function that I gave it. Yeah. ⁓ factor. Mm. And I even told her, I said, you know, on the side of the box it says can also be used as a personal handheld cooling device. ⁓ so it has more than one function. Yeah. speaker-0: That's so cool. That's multiple. Ha ha. So ⁓ I wanna go into some of the attachments in the future of your product. Now obviously like you're like future. I'm just right now in the now, you know. Yeah. But it sounds like you have ⁓ a good head on your shoulders and you're probably looking at the future. I know you talked about attachments for like other water bladders and stuff like that. ⁓ so is it an attachment? And I'm pretty sure I know, but I'm asking this question just for people who are listening. But The attachment that you're doing, it's it would be attached onto what you already have, right? So I could use I could just buy the attachment for my five hundred milliliter bottles, right? speaker-1: Right. So yeah, this one, this ring here is designed specifically for camelback. ⁓ their crux bag is pretty popular. And sit so is this hook. So this hook, ⁓ this part of it goes directly into where the hose connects to the bag. ⁓ there is another hook that's coming out that's literally just a hook on either side. So you can hang a bag any bag you want upside down. ⁓ and then this part is the part that will have different accessories that will be able to connect to different types of ⁓ bags. So it's it's not only hydration reservoirs that go in a backpack, but ⁓ my wife is a marathon runner, she does marathons and she does Ragnar's. she uses a vest that has the flasks. So I want to make sure I'm addressing ⁓ that audience, which is pretty big. ⁓ I think you said you use I don't know what brand you have, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so HydroPack has lots of different types of hydration bottles and reservoirs. So, you know, definitely hoping to make something that can accommodate most, if not all, of their products. ⁓ and then there are there is some overlap. ⁓ speaker-0: So they have those speaker-1: with some of the other brands. So I created a ring that'll fit Gregory bags. Mm-hmm. ⁓ and that same ring will fit Skillcraft, which is ⁓ what some of the military uses. And that ring will also fit Nathan created a bag that has a twist lock closure and it'll fit that bag too. So it just so happened they're the s a similar size with similar threading. ⁓ I didn't, you know research each one of those. I just bought them and said, ⁓ yeah, this works for all of them, which is great. ⁓ so I got I just got kind of lucky with that. ⁓ so yeah. So ⁓ there are and then very specifically for Camelback, they have a mill spec bag that I specially designed a ring for. And so right now there are three rings and more accessories that will kind of work in some way in conjunction with those. I think the ultimate goal is speaker-0: Yeah, that's cool. speaker-1: ⁓ to make it so that when you buy a kit you've got kind of everything you need actually. Be I there's so many customers that I've talked to that say, ⁓ this is great for this one, but I I actually have three brands and I use them for different things. And how can I accommodate all of them? And so, you know, especially when I've talked to hunters, hunters are using three or four different brands ⁓ for various things, right? So they're out sometimes for long periods of time and so they're using a bunch of different products. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's good. I I have a new attachment for you. Maybe you've thought of it already, but it's a h it you connect a hose and then it it branches out and I can put it in my shoes so I can dry my shoes. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. So Yeah, there's ⁓ there are some I mean I speaker-0: There's products out there that already do that for shoes and stuff, but I'm like, man, I'm a very like one trick pony, especially when I'm traveling and you can only take so much. I'm like, man, how could I d have dry my trail running shoes, you know, so they're not nasty when I'm flying home with them? I'm like, ⁓ I could use that too. I'll I'll be the guy that's like at Home Depot with the hoses and duct tape and attaching it to your dryer fan trying to do that. speaker-1: So by the way, I mean that's how a lot of these things start. I I actually have bought, you know, vacuum adapters for your, you know, shop vacs and stuff. And I'm I'm cutting them apart and gluing them together and trying to figure out okay what works. In fact, ⁓ the n one of the next accessories is born of something similar in nature. And I told my industrial designer, like, this vacuum adapter, but make it fit our thing, you know. Yeah. ⁓ so I mean if if it works, it works. ⁓ the nice thing is I'm testing all that so hopefully you get it and it's just ready to go. I'll I'll consider ⁓ what it would take to make something for your shoes and I'll let you be the the shoe tester. speaker-0: For sure. ⁓ okay, cool. So I'm I I I think I I'm not gonna ask you any more questions because I've already learned a ton about the product and then I've even just learned about like creating my own. Cause I've told people so many times I'm gonna create my own product. And then after I hear the story about it, I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna leave it to people like you to take the risk and I'll just spit out my random ideas and then people can can take my ideas and do as they wish. You have my permission. so if people are are trying to get ⁓ dryer, where would they go? How can they how can they pick what's the easiest way for them to get get your product? speaker-1: Yeah, they can go to dryfan.com. It's D-R-Y-E-F-A-N.com. And they can also look for it on Amazon. So it's being sold on Amazon. So yeah, either place is cool with me. If you go to Amazon, that helps me there. But if you buy directly, that's great too. Yeah. ⁓ and if you have any questions when you're looking at it, you can email me through the website. I'm the one responding. So you know, as as many customers Send me a message. I'm the one who answers back. ⁓ mostly because I I want to help everyone solve a problem. So, you know, if you're not sure if it'll work, send me an email, show me a photo, I'll help you figure it out. And if I don't have a solution yet, ⁓ I could either 3D print something that might work or, you know, we can put it on the list. speaker-0: Yeah. And if you're if if people are listening and they he's not responding, it's because you're packing microfiber cloths into the into the boxes and you're busy. That's right. The life of an entrepreneur speaker-1: Right. So that's right. I get back to everybody. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. You know, it's good fun. just one note on that. I yeah, I do have my family help me. Yeah. And it's great. It's it's really the my kids are young. I've a a daughter who's almost nine and a son who's ten. And you know, something I had to do as a kid was work in my grandfather's shop. He had created a product. And so I I get to share this thing that I made with them. They're excited about it, but they also learn, you know, a lot of really healthy lessons, I think, that ⁓ that are important to me. So making this product has also facilitated so much more meaning to my life than just, you know, putting something out there. It's it's helping me spend time with them and giving us a thing to, you know, teach lessons about and and bond over. So There's so much good out of it, really. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. I mean, anytime you can get with your kid, especially 'cause you can probably sit there and talk with them and everything. It's not like a a job where they they can't speak. Like you can sit there and and talk and hang out. I remember like doing the same thing, packing stuff at my ⁓ grandfather's farm and we would just sit there and like sort apples for hours and hours and hours. And I was gosh, I was ten, eleven, twelve years old doing that and it taught me hard work. I take my daughter to photo shoots all the time. ⁓ when I can. And she's just like, Wow, this is and the drive there, it's nothing but conversation. And then afterwards she's like, Man, I didn't know you did this kind of thing, Daddy. And I'm like, Yeah. And then yeah, I think that's so cool that you ⁓ and I think just seeing the product and people getting it and this knowing like, hey, this is a family affair, you know, and like it's it's all it's touched by you. It's not just some box thing that this gets shipped and The owner doesn't care about it. They, you know, you really do care about it and care about the customer. So I think that's awesome. all right. So ⁓ without further ado, we're gonna go into our lightning round. It's just a few questions just to get to know you a little bit more. ⁓ very simple ⁓ questions, kind of one word, like simple sentence answers. But ⁓ first question is your favorite national park. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, thanks. ⁓ I would have to say what I've said for a really long time is Sequoia National Park. ⁓ it's it's not that far for me to get there, but ⁓ there are a few places where I've gone to and been just simply amazed by the size of the trees and and the beauty of the Sierras. ⁓ it's a phenomenal place. And you know, when I when I go to a national park, I want to go experience something that I I can't every day. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: And that for sure is is high on my list of places where I I just feel in awe of nature. speaker-0: Is it one tree? Is it called General S General Sherman? Sherman yeah, yeah. Is it General Sherman or is it just called Sherman? I have no idea. Yeah. speaker-1: Sherman. Yep. I think it's general Sherman. Yeah. It's or yeah. ⁓ that's I forget how old it is. It's a couple thousand years old or something. I mean it's just it's incredible to be there. It just I feel like on earth, if you want to feel, you know, meaning outside of yourself, you go to a place where you're relatively insignificant. And that's a place to go where You know, you're yeah, you're like not a big deal. These things have been here for thousands of years and, you know, ⁓ are are just really incredible to view. speaker-0: ⁓ all right, what's your favorite trail snack? speaker-1: Ooh, favorite trail snack. I'm gonna go with just a granola bar, to be honest. ⁓ like something with oats in it. ⁓ hearty snack, little sweetness. you know, don't hate me, but like a nature valley granola bar is like awesome for me because I do a weird thing where I break it before I eat it, and then you know. It turns into multiple snacks and then you get the crumbs at the end. I don't know. speaker-0: Yeah. No, yeah. I I see reels all the time where they s show people eating that and by the time they go to eat it, it's just crumbs on the floor and they've got like one little bite in their hand. All right. So what's your worst worst trail snack you've ever tried? speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. ⁓ I'm just nothing with chocolate. I'm not a big fan of you know, if people do trail mix and those M's and it I'm like, nope. speaker-0: ⁓ really? ⁓ my gosh, I love chocolate. speaker-1: I know, everybody does. I'm weird in that way, but I don't want melted chocolate on my hands. I don't want it in my in my bag. I don't want it anywhere. I know. So speaker-0: Yeah. Next is tent, ⁓ hammock, or cowboy camping. speaker-1: ⁓ if I have my choice and conditions I write out cowboy camp. ⁓ that's how I grew up doing it. ⁓ these days it's more tent camp. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. ⁓ next is and this is ⁓ more of a business question, but what's the biggest thing you've ever done or biggest splurge for your business you ever did or ever made? speaker-1: For this company. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ well, I mean, probably the biggest investment so far is actually outdoor retailer in terms of like one single cost. That's like that was it's not cheap. Yeah. So yeah. ⁓ it's the space, it's the booth, it's the accommodations and travel, it's you know ⁓ there's a lot and the time. I mean, it was the the probably the single biggest expense and you know, commitment that I've made so far. ⁓ the one. speaker-0: I I it sounds like it went well, which is great 'cause yeah, again, like we talked about it can be it can go one way or another, but I think it sounds like it went awesome. So ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah. And and there's more there are more of those coming, by the way. It's cool. More events. speaker-0: Yeah, that's ⁓ yeah, I could totally see like what is it? ⁓ there's a blanket that I want to create, but I'm not ever gonna create it. So it's just I've seen people create it before, but it's basically a towel that goes over your seat in your car for after a race. But they're always just a towel, but never something that's waterproof on one side, but a nice towel on the other, so it doesn't seep through and get into your seat, and then the stank from your race gets embedded and then it's a whole Seinfeld episode, you know, because of the smell. So ⁓ speaker-1: That's a great idea. speaker-0: Yeah. So I I had I had been talking with some people about some materials because the other idea I had was out the window because it was one where it's all just manufacturing and stuff and what it cost me like someone told me what it cost me like ease a quarter million and I was like never mind I was like never mind. I'll go with the towel where I can just sew it myself and then but I w I was saying that to say like I was thinking of going and just selling it at ⁓ like race days and stuff like that where you can tem sometimes get a booth or you just they're like they don't mind you coming and just kind of speaker-1: ⁓ my god. speaker-0: selling it to a few people just to get your feet wet. I don't I feel like people don't do a lot of that that kind of marketing and stuff like that. They think they can only do it online. ⁓ well speaker-1: It that's on the list of things to do. like I said, my wife does marathons and she's been bugging me to get out there and do that. ⁓ it's just really, you know, all it's all a matter of time, you know, and resources, you know. If I can if I can get out there and I can do one, great. and you know, be before I had a product, I actually went with her to a Ragnar in Zion, which was so cool. And I brought a prototype and I was just showing people to see if they thought it made sense and a lot of people really liked it. So ⁓ definitely a great way to get the ideas up. That's cool. speaker-0: All right. My last last question is and this is ⁓ a one I'd love to ask is if you could collab with any brand, who would it be and why? speaker-1: Ooh I I'm gonna say Patagonia. Well, no, it's Patagonia. And ⁓ the reason is the the way that that business was built and the mission of that business just resonates with me. I mean, they, you know, the owner gave his ownership up so that they could take the money and use it, you know, to to fight ⁓ global warming and speaker-0: Yes. Okay. speaker-1: all the proceeds of the f of the business are always going towards something positive for the environment. And just to to be in business and be successful is really, really difficult. And to not make it about the money, I think is so rare and so I think important for our culture. I just want more of that. I want more I'd love to see more companies ⁓ function for good intention. Mm-hmm. And and be successful at it. It has really helped it has helped their business grow and they can be really proud of, you know, what they've done with it and ⁓ that they've done it for the right reasons. So I don't know if there's any opportunity with Patagonia ⁓ except that your blanket idea is probably right on it for them. Yeah. ⁓ because they They do make some really cool gear, especially now for ⁓ for surfers and for other sports. speaker-0: Yeah. No, I think that's a great little ending to this whole conversation is, you know, a lot of people do it to make money for themselves. And you can and like you said, it's doing it for the right reasons. Cause you can there's lots of companies that they give just because they gotta give because it's a tax deduction. And then you can tell when someone like yourself is doing it for the right reason. They're doing it because they really genuinely care. And when they usually do that is usually it comes back to them and they're they do really, really well and stuff like that. So ⁓ I think that's like hugely great advice for anybody running a company. We we ourselves try to give back ⁓ when we were doing weddings, we're always trying to do like one free wedding a year to someone someone in need and not like tell them like you don't owe me anything. We just find that somebody's you know, whose story resonated with us or just like ⁓ I feel like this one we're gonna do for free. And then when we tell them, they're like, What? No, what's the catch? I'm like, no, no, I just really want to do it. And it just blesses our business back as well because we're doing genuinely doing because we care. So ⁓ I think that's awesome. And I I think that your company's gonna just go through the roof. And I can't wait to see. ⁓ I keep telling people we need to do like follow ups a year from now just to see where everybody is, because it would be it'd be neat, even to do like a little five minute little blurb on socials and stuff like that. But ⁓ I I think that that is incredible. So Peter, thank you ⁓ I mean so much for taking the time and and being on Vyana Trailhead and everybody thank you so much for listening to this incredible episode and we look forward to ⁓ next week. Thank you so much Peter. Talk to you soon.