Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: The Dopesick Story that broke America’s heart with Danny Strong

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Killer Thriller: The Dopesick Story that broke America’s heart with Danny Strong · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy roboc and TJ.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan. Hey everyone,
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Few true
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: crime stories have a body count measured in the hundreds
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: of thousands. Since the mid nineteen nineties, the obioid epidemic
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: has devastated families across America, leaving behind one of the
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: deadliest public health crises in modern history. At the center
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: of that story is Purdue Pharma, the Sackler family, and
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: the drug oxy Conton. Today, we are joined by Danny Strong,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: the creator, writer, and executive producer of the Emmy winning
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: eight part series Dope Sic, which explores one of the
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: most shocking public health disasters in modern history. Danny, Welcome
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: to Killer Thriller.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. This is so exciting.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: I am so thrilled to see your face. First of all,
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: I adore you.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: And I'm so so so just thrilled for all of
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: the work that you have been doing. It's just across
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: the board, stellar and so important and meaningful. It's like
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: all the things that we want to do when we
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: get involved in this business.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: So congrats, well, thank you, thank you so much. And
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: it was so wonderful to see you. It's been so long.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I just think it's so awesome that you have this
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: killer show unintended bam and and I just kick it
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: off with a pun rolled yeah. When I got this,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: When I got when I was reached out to do
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: this with you, I'm like, oh my god, yay.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: People don't know that we have a really strong history
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: of doing some very important comedic work.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: That's right on the mini tube there. Well, actually it's
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: not was like the normal television at the time.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: So we tell them, or we get a kid, are
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: we going to tell them?
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Well, So I did a little TV show of a
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: little movie called Clueless, and Danny and I my character Amber,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: who was like the potster all the time. Danny's character,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: what was the name was it, Marshall Marshall Marshall right,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: and he was the super smart character who was in
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: love with cher right.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: And I would try to utilize.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Marshall for my benefit with the carrot of I'll get
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: you closer to share.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Right, any an episode you were trying to Yeah, you
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: would use me for your villainy.
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: Right, But it was so funny, like it was. I
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: loved it. We were like a like a duo.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a super fun together. You know, you
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: were always so nice to me, and it was one
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: of my jobs as an actor. Oh was it. I
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: did know that. Yeah, it was one of the first
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: shows I ever did. And so to have one of
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: the stars of the show, who also starred in the movie,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: just be so lovely to me was very meaningful and
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: it was I never forgot that, So a thank you
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: for being so sweet to me. And b it was
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: awesome just working with you on it. I mean, you're
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: so talented and hilarious and it was really exciting for
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: me to get to do all those episodes with you.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: Oh, I love it.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: It was for me as well when you have somebody
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: who like knows what they're doing and is invested and
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: fun and like curious like it just you made it great.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: So it was great for me to thank you.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Hey, and here we are, okay, So we're here to
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: talk about Dope Sick, which is simply one of the
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: most powerful and beautifully executed series that I've ever seen.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: And so before we talk about the actual series, for people,
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: you know, most people have heard the word OxyContin and
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: opioid epidemic, but for the people who don't know much
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: about it. How would you explain who the Sacklers are
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: and how they became him associated with one of the
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: deadliest public health crises in history.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, So the Sacklers are a family on the East Coast,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: and there's two different wings of them. There's the Raymond
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Sackler Wing and the Mortimer Sackler Wing. And Raymond and
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: Mortimer were brothers and they owned this company called Perdue Pharma.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: And Perdue Pharma was a pharmaceutical company and the company
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: hit it big with this drug called OxyContin. Before Oxycon,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: they had a drug called MS Conton, which was a painkiller,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: an opiate, and the patent was going to come up,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: and so they thought, how can we use this system,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: this Conton system, which was a slow release system in
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: the body, delayed release system, so the drug could last
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: much longer than three hours or four hours, you know,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: and they had marketed the drug is twelve hours. So
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: so they developed this drug and they claimed that this
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: new sort of miracle drug, OxyContin, was a non addictive
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: opioid and that less than one percent of people would
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: get addicted to it, which was the opposite of the
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: understanding of opioids for the previous hundred years. So it
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: was it was you know, discussed as this massive breakthrough, groundbreaking,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: groundbreaking breakthrough because of the use of the conton system, right. So,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: but what was in fact the case was that that
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: was not accurate. It was not true that less than
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: one percent of people became addicted. But they had supplied
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: all of this data and you know, and tests, and
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: there was just so much information that showed that less
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: than one percent of people were addicted, that it was
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: a non addictive opioid. Well it was not true, right,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: So what does that mean. It means that data was falsified.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: It meant there was this massive propaganda campaign in order
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: to make claims that were in fact untrue. And what
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: happened was was that oxy conton, you know, which came
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: on the market in nineteen ninety six, by nineteen ninety nine,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: addiction rates in the areas that the drug was being
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: first promoted, which were rural areas where people would get
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: hurt on the job more so minding communities and logging
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: communities and farming communities. That's where they were pushing the
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: drug originally because that's where people would get injuries that
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: they needed these kinds of drugs. Addiction rates started blowing up,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: and by two thousand and one it was it was
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: a national discussion. It became a major national news story
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and two thousand and one of you know,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: the devastation that oxy conton was bringing to all these
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: communities because it transformed addiction, not just in these communities,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: just started spreading all across the country except in five states.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: There were five states that were spared the explosive addiction rates.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Now why were these five states spared.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: That Perhaps they didn't sell the drug there.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: It was much it was it was a much higher
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: bar to prescribe opioids in those five states. So they
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: couldn't have this sort of blanket prescribing in these five
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: states that they were able to do in the rest
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: of the country. And because of that, I believe Purdue
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Pharma didn't focus on these states and their rollout in
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: their marketing campaigns and in their sort of aggressive way
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: in which they had these pharmaceutical reps going to doctor
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: to doctor to try to push them to prescribe oxycont
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: So that was in The Sackler family would claim for
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: years that they were sort of yes, owners of the company,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: but that they were you know, not that involved, that
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: other people were actually running the company. And then when
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: when and you know, all the lawsuits happened and all
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: the investigations happened, and the show Dope Sick covers the
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: first major investigation in pharma. It came out that in fact,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: that was not true, that they micro manage the company,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: and that Richard Sackler oversaw the company. You know, his
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: brother Jonathan Sackler was heavily involved. Kathy Sackler, who was
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: in the Mortimer Wing, she was very involved, and that
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: the entire claim that they were sort of absentee landlords
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: of this of this company were untrue.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: Right right, I mean they were going to get into
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: how just nefarious all of them are, but particularly Richard.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: So the series is based on Beth Macy's book also
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: called Dope Sick Dealers, Doctors and the Drug Companies, the
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: drug company that addicted America.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: So there there are.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Tons of facts and victims and doctors and prosecutors and
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: corporate execs in this book. So how did you decide
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: which stories would become the backbone of this series?
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: So I actually had conceived of the show and sold
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: it to a studio twenty studios. Before I even knew
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: the book Dope Sick existed. I had based all of
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: this on There had already been multiple books by that point.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: There's a book called Painkiller that had come out in
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: two thousand and two by a New York Times journalist
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: who was kind of the one of the first people
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: that was all over this story in real time back
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and one, two thousand and two, two
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: thousand and three. So so there had been a number
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: of books, but there was this huge article that exploded
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: the story, and I believe it was two thousand and
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: seventeen or eighteen by Patrick raiden Keith and The New Yorker,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: and it was called, I want to say Empire of Pain,
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: but that was actually the name of the book that
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: was but it was it was this massive story in
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: The New Yorker that brought a world of paper for
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: family and exploded the story into sort of mainstream culture
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: and society. And that's kind of what spurred, you know,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: this entire movement. So I had done all this research
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: based on all these other sources, had come up with
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: the show, and then lo and behold, another division at
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Disney who owned twentieth Studios Fox twenty one goes and
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: buys the book Dope Sick in a bidding War, not
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: knowing that I'd already had a show in development there.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: And then I read about it on Deadline Hollywood. This
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: is a little inside Hollywood baseball. So I don't know
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: if this is you're kidding.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: But I do love that. I was like, Oh, I
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: read about you know, my job was over in the
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: Hollywood Reporter.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what the moment in which I read this. But
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: they were actually, so, I'm a writer with a pitch
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: ready to go. They have a book they've bought and
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: it could take up to a year to find a writer.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I was way ahead of them, so they asked me
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: if I would team up with that project. The book
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: covered a lot of what I was up too. There
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: definitely was in the book. But there were two factors
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: why I agreed to team up. One was I met
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: with Beth Beth Macy, and I adored her. I just
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: thought she just this wonderful woman. She wanted to be
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: heavily involved, and I thought, well, having an expert in
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: the writer's room that can't be a bad thing. But
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: the other factor why I agreed to team up. Was
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: because of I loved the title dope sick. I thought
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: that's a great.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: It's very strong.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that was so that was the genesis. So
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: how did I choose the different stories? You know? It was,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. It's been so it's been
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: quite a wild I knew I wanted to have investigations
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: as the spine, so that that could make it feel
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: like a bit of a thriller, and that these this
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: US attorney in Virginia and his two prosecutors they had
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: they had brought a made the first major case against
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Purdue Pharma. The US attorney's name was John brownlee uh
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: and his prosecutors were Rick Mountcastle and Andy Ramsayer. And
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: I thought that what a great way to take us
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: through the story. Then there was also a d agent
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: who also was pursuing Purdue Pharma, you know, in sort
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: of a different path, and I thought, well, great, let's
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: get another investigation in there. How cool was that that,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: you know, to just sit as a thriller, And that's
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: in the TV show. That's the resort of Dawson character. Yeah,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: she's a composite character because the actual person that inspired
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: it didn't want to participate, so because of that, I
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: didn't want to use her real name, and so I
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: created this composite hittor. Then I wanted to just take
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: us into Perdue Pharma and show whatever facts that were
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: out there of what they had done, because there was
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: quite a bit of information that had been written about
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: at that point. So that was the other storyline I
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: was really interested in. And then lastly, I thought, well,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: you've got to have the victims. You've got to show
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: people that were duped by Purdue Pharma so that we're
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: given all this false evidence that the drug was non addictive.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: So then I came up with this be able. I'll
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: have a doctor, I'll have a patience and will and
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: those will be sort of the addiction storylines, right, and
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: then all of this could kind of interweave and intersect,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: and I thought, well it could work.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: It's really brilliantly crafted in that regard because there are
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: so many stories going on and the way that they're
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: interwoven and set up, especially, you know, let's talk about it.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: First of all, the cast is so terrific just across
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: the board.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Everyone.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: We can start talking about Michael Keaton, his character doctor
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Samuel Finnix. He became the emotional center of the series,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: and the way his storyline is structured is so brilliant,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: And you really get in that first episode how these
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: small town doctors really do everything.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: For the community.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: You know, he's like the GP and and obg y
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: N and you know, so they're so kind of beloved
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: and trusted, and so that seems to be like, why was.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: That perspective so important to show?
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Well, I'd heard I really wanted to set this and
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: rural Appalachia right because that was ground zero for their
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: marketing tactics, as I said before, because these were communities
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: where people got injured working right right, So, and it
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: was it was sort of the start of the crime.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: You know, if you got a crime story, this is
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: where the crime began. But I had read about and
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: a friend of mine had told me about a doctor
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: and then there and I got and I heard this
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: story a few times of doctors that had gotten addicted
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: on oxycon, and one doctor and particular, he'd gotten addicted,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: and then he addicted his patients thinking he was helping them.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Then he gets addicted himself and he loses everything, and
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: then he gets his his license back and he's so
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: filled with Shane. He returns home to try to unhook people,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: to try to to try to undo the damage he
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: had done. I thought that was so beautiful. I was
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: so moved by that. It's beautiful, what a great character.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: So that was a real person, that whole It was.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Multiple people, is multiple, right, yea, yeah, there were a
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: few people that that had done and then one of
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: them I interviewed and he gave me incredible material that
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: I put right into the show. You know, it's so beautiful. Yeah,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: that part, yeah, it really is. It really is very moving.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: And then I thought, well, then I'll give him a
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: patient that he's very close to that he gets addicted.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: And I thought by doing that, I could show sort
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: of addiction too, on two different journeys of addiction, you know,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: a journey in which he, as a doctor, is privy
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: to sort of more help than she's privy too. Right.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: But but but even the help he's privy to it,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: it doesn't help, because it's the nature of opioid addiction, right.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: So it was it was able to tell addiction stories.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: And in the research, there were so many stories of
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: addiction and they seem to overlap. There were sort of
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: common journeys that people went on, and I wanted to
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: I wanted to sort of pay tribute to that and
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: explore it and show it. But also I had my
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: understanding of addiction was I think similar to a lot
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: of the audience, which was thinking it was a moral
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: failure on these people's parts that they just want to
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: get high, you know, these drugs want to get high.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: What I didn't understand, in which I was blown away, fascinated,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: like very passionate about dramatizing, was that it was that
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: in an opioid addiction, it rewires your brain, and it
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: rewires it very quickly. Could be in three days, you know,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: but in a few weeks your brain is rewired so
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: that if you do not get this drug, you are
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: in so much pain you think you're gonna die. And
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: that's what being dope sick is, That's what That's what
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: dope sick means. That pain, that fear of not being
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: able to get the drug, and you will turn your
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: back on everything in your life, your family, your kids,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: your job, everything in your life to not be dope sick.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: So I just thought, I, you know, I didn't know
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: that you know, and I thought, wow, here's something I
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: did not know, and I want to share that with
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: with with as many people as I can. So that
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: was one of the missions of the show, was was
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: was bringing this new understanding of addiction. And you know,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: there were people that watched the show that were had
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: gone through it, that didn't know it themselves.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: Right, didn't understand what was happening to and that's.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: What happened to them, and thought that the moral failing
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: was theirs, you know, that they were losers, that they
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: were addicts, that they you know, and that the show,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: the show brought to them the same thing that it
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: brought to me in that research, which was no, they
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: were victims. They were victims of the manipulative, you know,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: campaign of deception that they were being given a drug
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: that was safe that was in fact not safe.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's diabolical what it is diaby people did.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: It's it's just unfathomable and it's I really love the
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: culmination of Michael Keaton's character of his story when he
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: does go back to the tech or and sort of
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: And I also thought there are so many nuanced details
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: that I think are so just telling and beautiful and
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: this like where that I have heard from other people
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: regarding addiction or being you know, that the sort of
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: path they have to take.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: And one him saying well, I can't.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Like he didn't go back to the town to live
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: there because he felt like I can't live there, but
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I need to help these people.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: And it was like this sort of omage to that town.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: But then also when he speaks to the to the
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: the nun and the therapy that he does, and this
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: this piece of she keeps, she says to him, tell me,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: like I know about your shame or I'm paraphrasing, but
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: you know, like I know about your shame and all
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: the bad things you've done. I want to know, Like
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: tell me about those babies that you birthed. Tell me
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: about like, like I get emotional thinking about it. It's
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: like that's what people need to remember their value and
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: remember like the beautiful things that he's capable of doing
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: so that you can continue to live.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a real woman, by the way, because
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, And I interviewed her and it was
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: it was wonderful, you know, the interview and the doctor
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: as well. His doctor was a real person. And I
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: interviewed him, and so those scenes with the two of them,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: they're they're you know, completely just based on fact, on
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: the treatment they actually did, on how they dealt with
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: these people and how they dealt with addiction issues in Appalachia. Uh,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: they're real heroes to me. I just think I'm just
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: sort of blown away by by what they Yeah, I
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: remember shooting those scenes, and Michael Keaton was just he
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: was unbelievable.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: In this one take he stopped talking and just started
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: crying and it was just, you know, I'm getting emotional
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: thinking about it, and it was just and then I
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: just couldn't believe it. And then and it's in the show.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, that take is in the show, you know.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: I remember it.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: The performances in this are so deep and so and
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: it's you know, a testament to how well it's crafted
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: and written and directed and all of it.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: But it's like you really feel the soul of all
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: of these people, and it just is it's amazing. And Michael,
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: you know, he won the.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Emmy, the Golden Globe, every Screen Actors Guild, he won
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: all of them, like everyone.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: You know, it's and so many people were nominated for
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: so many awards, from the show. You know, I think
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Caitlyn Deaver's performance is so special in it.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: We got to talk about her, Like, hold it, we
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: have to talk about Kaitlyn Deaver. Yeah. First of all,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: she should be in every TV movie, anything going forward
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: to the end of time. Everyone, she should be in
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: all of them. Yeah, And I just am blown away
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: by her that her work in this is so painful
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: and beautiful and nuanced. It's like she's it's just on
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: another level.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: He's a genius. We called her a little Mayroll on set, yes,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: because she just everyone was just in awe of her.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: And I remember the actor to play her, dad, Ray
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: McKinnon is. He's an incredible actor and a director and
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: a writer. He's a very talented person. And he turned
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: to me one day and he said, I'm sick of
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: getting my ass kicked by this twenty five year old
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: would just show up and she would do these unbelievable
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: scenes give it take. You know. There was one day
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: where we had a scene where she has her major
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: breakdown scene with her parents and it's you know, and
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: it's you know, She's storms through the whole house and
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: she's basically destroying the house because they throw her pills away,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: and we'd set aside hours for it because it was
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: so complicated and so emotional for her. She did it
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: in one take, the first take, and you know, Patricia
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Riggan is a wonderful director, directed that episode, and she
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: just looked at me and she was like, well, She's like,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: you know, what else are we supposed to do. I'm like, well,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: let's just do it again, but you know, we don't
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: like we have it, and I think maybe we did
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: three takes total because it was just so hard on
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: although she probably could have done it twenty times. It
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: was just so emotional, but we just had it every
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: single take and then we had hours to go to
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: other stuff because she just crushed everything. And by the way,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: the sweetest person ever too.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: You know, I love hearing this person.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I'm just in I was so in
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: awe of Caitlin.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: I read that you said something about this that that
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: character has to die, like she can't make it, did
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: you say? And it's one of those things where as
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: a viewer you're like.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, no no no no, Like.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: You really want her so desperately to survive, but you
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: kind of know that she's.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: I felt that it would have been false to the
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: crisis and to the victims to have her survive, and
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: you know, he survives, you know, Michael keytes things right,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: so you have two different journeys. And I remember there
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: was a studio executive, very thing level who called me
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: and he said, I really don't want her to die,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: and like none of us do, but yeah, why said
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: she has to? And he said why and I said,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: because the whole shows a lie if she if she survives,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: And then I said, and it's a limited series. It's
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: not like we need her to come back for season two.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: So what's the problem right now? I mean, and it
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: was this second, it was at the end of the
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: second to last episode. I just thought, I just thought,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: you know, like, I don't think people are going to
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: tune out if they've made it through seven episodes, because
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: she died at the end of the the seventh episode, right,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: But it felt to me like it just would be
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: so false.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: And it also helps propel Michael Keaton's character forward, because
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: that loss for him is so deep and you feel
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: so much responsibility for that, and it's so it's gut
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: wrenching with the parents and then how they treat his character,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: and you know you can't.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: He's he's trying to sort of.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Make amends and give his apologies and he has to
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: accept that.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: Some sometimes we don't get that.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, it's a I think I remember that
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: scene when we because I directed that episode, the scene
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: with when he goes back to her parents and you know,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Mayor Winningham and Ray Monckinnon, Michael Keaton. I mean what
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: I know, I know big I did good on the casting,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: you did you get they were just everyone was just
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: you know, and we when we offered it to Michael Keaton,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: we no one really thought he would do it because
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: A he's notoriously very difficult to land as an actor.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Everyone loves him and wants him, and he does He
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: just note everything. And it wasn't a lead role. It
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: was an ensemble so it just seemed like a real stretch.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: But we hadn't made an offer to anyone yet, so
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: I thought, well, let's just try. You know. It's so
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: if he says no, you know, and you get nervous.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: You don't want to rack up too many passes. You
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: start to think, oh, it's going to make this the network.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Nervous and people are going to get nervous that don't
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: want to do the show, and maybe I want to
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: be the show. But we hadn't done anyone yet, so
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I thought, I thought, okay, I've got you know, my
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: pie in the sky choice is Michael Keaton. Why don't
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: we just try? And then he said yes. Once Michael said,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: it became this really hot project in Hollywood and everyone
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: wanted to do it. To do it, yeah, they wanted
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: to destroy the opioid crisis with Michael Keaton he loved
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: in Hollywood. And Barry Levinson was directing the pilot. I
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: mean it was yeah, and Perry was amazing, you know,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: to get to work with him, and Verry such a
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: hero mine and Michael there to hear of the mind,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: you know. So it was, uh, it was, It really came.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: So we kind of had our choice of actors after that. Yeah,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: And so that's how we were able to put together
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: this just incredible cast.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Everybody is is wonderful, including Will Palter, who plays Billy Cutler.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: He's a sales rep who kind of gains a conscience
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: over time and finally leaves Purdue Pharma and helps the prosecutors.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: How much of it is his story based on a
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: real person.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Well he's a composite character, but absolutely based on you know,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: a few people, but one in particular, I interviewed a
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: former farmer rep And and he gave me some incredible
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: material and anecdotes and the guilty felt and sort of
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: the turn he he took, you know, I did take
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: a number of and he was a farmer for Purdue Pharma,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: so it was I mean, I got, you know, the
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: real deal kind of you know, story from from him.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: So but but there were other anecdotes. You know, when
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: you've got this many sources. There's been so many books
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: written about this, right, and they're they're all great s,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: all these incredible books you know, on it. And and
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: then I brought on some of the people that wrote
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: the books as consultants on it. So I just have
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: this massive wealth of information of them. But Will Poulter
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: is fascinating because he was the kid and were the
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Millers right kind of they And then I saw him
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: in a movie called Detroit, in which he was this
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: villain cop in Detroit, and he's so incredible in Detroit.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: And I went home and I immediately I am to
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: beat him. Some who is this guy? And it was
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: he was the Nerd and were the Millers, and I thought,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: oh my god, this guy's Daniel day Lewis.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: The diverge between those two performances was so staggering. So
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: then you know, a fewyears later when we were casting this,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: and you know, we had this incredible casting director, Avi Kaufman,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: and she sits together, right, and she sends, you know,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: and I see Will Folter's name on the I'm like,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Will Wolter, Daniel day Lewis.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: And he's got Meryl and Daniel d Lewis.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Daniel d Lewis. Yeah, yeah, so and by the way,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: another just lovely guy, total gentleman.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: You know, it's so interesting when you I mean, I'm
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: not surprised to hear this about all these people, but
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: I'm very thrilled to hear it because there is something
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: you can you know, when magic happens, which doesn't happen
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: all the time, but I feel like it did with
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: this show. It is like every piece has to fit,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: you know, and so much of that has to do
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: with personalities and you know, work ethic and all that
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: kind of thing, and it feels very cohesive, you know,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: it feels like everyone's on the same ride, and it's
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: it's just really strong.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: I've worked on a lot of different types of projects
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: over the years, as you know, as a writer and
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: director and as an actor, and I find that when
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I've done these kind of prestige prestige sort of muckbreaking
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: projects that everyone on set is very excited to be there,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: very excited to be part of something that's sort of
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: saying something and they could have impact, and the behavior
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: is usually pretty great, you know, you know some of
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: the some of the negative behavior I've seen on sets,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: which by the way, isn't a lot. It's not as
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: if it's on every set I've ever been on. There's
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: been you know, just Deevin nightmares. It hasn't really been
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: a case, but it's sort of I don't see any
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: of that on on these types of projects. You know,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: it's sort of it's a different mindset with a cast
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: and the crew, or like we're all in this together
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: to to and.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: There's a bigger purpose, right, yeah, make a bigger purpose. Yeah,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: it feels very much that way. We are going to
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: leave it there for today, but next time we'll take
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: a closer look at Purdue pharma, the Sackler family, and
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: how a prescription drug became the center of one of
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: the deadliest public health disasters in American history.