Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Jay Seegert: Ignoring The Historical Significance Of Jesus At Christmas

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Jay Seegert: Ignoring The Historical Significance Of Jesus At Christmas · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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defending biblical Christianity.
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No topic, off limits.
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And now, here's your host, David Fierazzo.
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Hello friends, Mary, Christmas season, we're getting closer and closer and today on
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World View Matters, that's the topic.
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Christmas.
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Actually, I jotted down some notes, I've got Jake Seagirt coming in in a minute, and it's
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really interesting how we have sometimes conformed to the world when it comes to the Christmas
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holiday.
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We celebrate Christmas, we are all involved with the festivities and the plans and all the
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traditions, and we don't talk as much about Jesus and why we're celebrating.
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So that's what we're going to talk about today.
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I want to mention very briefly, my new book, Assault on the Image of God, it's available
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on Amazon, of course, the e-book is there on Amazon.
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I will just be honest, and the cheapest, not cheapest, but the best price you can get
1:08
on it right now is through Jan Markelle's Olive Tree Ministries, and you can get it at
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OliveTreeViews.org in Jan Markelle's store, I'm just telling you, if you want to save
1:19
a few dollars, otherwise, of course, you can get it on Amazon and you get it quickly.
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Okay, so let's talk Christmas with Jay Seagirt, and Jay Seagirt, of course, founder of the
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Starting Point Project, and I'd mention my book, he's got a book called Creation to Christ,
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I'd encourage you to check that one out, also for a Christmas gift, and Jay, I'm just
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so thankful to have you back on World View Matters, good morning or good afternoon, brother.
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It's always an honor to be on the program, I love working with you, you do great work,
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people need to hear everything you share, so I'm an honor, honor person to be here with
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you.
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Well, praise God, Jay, I'm just thankful all these years that we've connected, and we've
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been able to just talk about things that are important when it comes to the biblical
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world view.
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And today is an interesting one, because your specialty, of course, is creation, you're
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an engineer, I mean, that's your background, but you've been talking about this Genesis
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one through 11, and you do Grand Canyon trips, and you try to educate believers on the truth
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of creation.
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But we're talking about Christ today, which, you know, when you talk about creation, he
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is the Creator.
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And so open up this conversation relating to Christmas with Jesus, being God and the
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Creator, and we'll just walk through these steps, reminding believers of what we're
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celebrating.
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Sure, it's obviously very important with Christmas, Christmas coming up, and I go with
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my background in physics and engineering, it was really into the creation, evolution,
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controversy.
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And I still talk about that a lot, however, the bigger picture is the bigger picture,
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the authority of God's words, true cover to cover, and not only discusses the beginning,
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but it talks about stuff that's going on in the middle, and then there's an end as well.
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And then the middle stuff includes the arrival of Jesus Christ, and so we're celebrating
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Christmas, you know, coming up very soon here.
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And what's interesting is, you know, we want to witness in general throughout the year.
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We've got Christmas coming up, which is all about Jesus Christ.
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It, you know, Christmas is associated with the fruit cake, I'd like to say it should
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be associated with low hanging fruit cake, meaning the whole world is thinking about Christmas,
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independent of their religious background.
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They all kind of celebrate it one way or the other, but the central focus is the birth
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of Jesus Christ.
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So there shouldn't be any easier time throughout the entire year than Christmas to talk about
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Jesus Christ.
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Certainly Easter would be good too, but Christmas, everyone's, you know, happy and excited
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and celebrating it to one extent or another.
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So we should be able to jump on that bandwagon and talk to them.
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But the challenging thing is, you can be just about anywhere, and there's an elephant
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in the living room, meaning, you know, and if people aren't familiar with that phrase,
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you're sitting around someone's living room, everyone's talking to have a good time,
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and you're noticing this mass of elephant sitting in the middle of living room, but no one's
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talking about it.
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No one's mentioning it.
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They're acting like it's not there.
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And you're like, hello, anyone's seeing what I'm seeing this elephant here.
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So with Christmas, it's all about Jesus Christ, but literally almost no one's talking
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about Jesus.
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It's all about getting presents and decorating and having family over and being happy, but
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we've kind of missed the central focus.
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So we're going to be discussing today, how do we in a very unique way witness without
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it being too preachy?
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So that's what we're going to be headed into.
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Yeah.
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And the historical significance of Jesus, I mean, out of all the like world figures, influential
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men in the world, I mean, Jesus is very rarely mentioned in this group.
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It's really amazing.
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So we're going to talk about that before we get on with the topic, though, Jay, I skipped
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right over.
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You have a new podcast, the starting point podcast, would you please explain that and where
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people can listen?
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A long story short earlier this year, some approach, we said, you need to do a podcast.
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I said, I have absolutely no time, so now I'm doing a podcast comes out every Friday.
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We produce about maybe 45 or 48 or whatever so far.
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They're free, starting point podcast, Apple podcast, Spotify, and I just really go through
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and defend the Christian worldview in a very, very rational, extremely gracious way.
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So that's available.
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There's tons of information about the existence in origin of the universe, existence of
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God, inspiration of the Bible, creation of illusion controversy.
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So avail yourself of those free resources when you get a chance.
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Great.
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And it's the starting point project dot com.
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That's the website.
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So check out Jay's podcast.
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So all right, Jay, Jesus, who was he in history?
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We know obviously Bible, believe in Christians, understand that, but we do have some younger
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viewers.
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I mean, not necessarily younger in age, but younger, maybe in the faith and this would be very
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beneficial for them, because we're going to have, hopefully, conversations about Jesus
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Christ through this Christmas season with maybe relatives or friends.
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Sure.
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I was asked actually to a group, a certain business group of Christian leaders.
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And they wanted me to do something related to Christmas.
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And so I started thinking about this and I thought, how could they evangelize either
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within their businesses or families or friends and neighbors?
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But do it in a way that they don't get shut down right away.
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Because if you typically just say, well, you know, Christmas is all about Jesus and you
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need to place your trust in Jesus Christ as your Savior and all that.
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A lot of people just instantly shut you down, been there done it.
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We know that's about, you know, leave your religion at home, don't push it on me.
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So is there any way to still have a conversation that they don't shut you down so quickly?
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So I just started thinking, who in history changed the world more than Jesus?
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I mean, independent of your religious beliefs, whether you're an atheist, a Muslim,
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Mormon, Buddhist, whatever, Jesus Christ lived and he changed history more than anyone else.
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He actually existed.
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And so the curiosity is, how come we're not talking about him more?
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And can you think of any like other event in history, like the Spanish Inquisition or the Holocaust?
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Those things certainly have religious components to them.
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Do we not talk about them because you can go down that trail?
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No, it's something that happened and it was very significant.
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Well, Christmas is the arrival of Jesus Christ, a man who changed the world more than anyone else.
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It's a historical event.
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So why do we get shut down just because there are religious elements?
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And you could take it a step further and say,
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also who else in history, whether it's Einstein or Buddha or whomever,
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do we just, you know, Napoleon?
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Do we just mention their birthday and get excited and never talk about like who they were?
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What they did? Why were they significant?
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You just say, oh, it's their birthday.
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It's so exciting and then you move on.
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But that's what we do with Jesus.
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Oh, it's his birthday.
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Let's buy gifts and things, but don't talk about who he was and what he did.
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It's strange.
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Well, I think, well, obviously Jesus changed the world.
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I mean, he created the world because he is the creator.
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And he changed the world.
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I think here, Jay, what do you think about this?
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Do you think one of the reasons is a lot of people don't believe in the virgin birth,
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but yet they might admit that Jesus was actually physically born in the flesh.
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He became flesh.
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We believe the word God became flesh.
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And they don't believe that.
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So they hesitate to talk about the fact that he was born and that we're celebrating
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Christmas being the birth of Christ is birthday.
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Sure. Well, ultimately we're dealing with the spiritual issue.
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It's not just an academic thing with you throw facts at them and they say,
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oh, I didn't know that, you know, let me go to church and worship Jesus.
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They in their heart because of their sinful nature, which we all have,
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they don't really want that to be true.
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It's very convicting.
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So I'll go through all things.
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Why don't believe in the virgin birth?
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I mean, that couldn't happen.
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Like, wait a minute, we're talking about God here.
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As soon as you say God exists, you can never, ever after that say certain things are impossible.
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Because God is all powerful.
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So he could create the universe out of nothing.
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And there could be a virgin birth.
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So that's not really the issue.
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So you ask people, there was a guy 2000 years ago who showed up here,
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who changed the world more than anyone else.
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And it led to us having the hospitals we have today.
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And the university is where I think 120 were started by Christians and all that.
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We could go through all that.
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That's a fact of history.
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So you can ask this person, this person Jesus, who was here?
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What do you think of him?
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Who was he then?
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And many people will say, why?
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You know, I think it was a really good moral teacher.
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You know, that's a simple thing to say very vague in general.
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And you can agree with.
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He had some wise things to say, but you know what?
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Jesus didn't give us that option, not at all.
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Because he claimed to be the son of God.
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He claimed to be the only way to God.
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He claimed to be God himself.
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And he could go through all those verses.
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So here's a guy who actually claimed to be God.
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If he knew, he wasn't God, but he made those claims.
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And he's a liar.
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Well, if he's a liar, he's not a good moral teacher.
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You can call him moral, but maybe he wasn't lying.
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He just thought he was God.
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It was kind of deluded.
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Well, then he's a lunatic.
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Some of them thinks they're God, but they're not.
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That's lunacy.
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So he's either a liar or a lunatic.
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The only third option is he actually was what he claimed to be.
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You know, which would make him Lord.
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So is he a liar, a lunatic or Lord?
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And the person you're talking to, you're not having a religious discussion.
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You're talking about a historical figure.
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What do you think about the historical figure?
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You've got to choose one of those three.
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And which one are you going to choose and defend?
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So you're just talking about something historically
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not really getting into the religious nature yet.
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No, you can get to that, but you start out with a casual conversation.
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What do you think about this historical figure?
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I love the point you made early on in that.
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If most people believe that there is a God,
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let's just say most people believe at least that in divinity.
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And there's a God, then nothing would be impossible.
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If there is a God, nothing is impossible.
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So then you put the virgin birth there.
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I love the fact also, Jay, our Christmas songs.
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We tend to avoid some of the verses.
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They go really deep, theologically.
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I think of one, I think, uh, Hark the Herald Angels sing.
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There's a verse in there that says,
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born that man no more may die.
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So Jesus was born that we can have new birth,
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that we can be born again and be spiritually safe forever,
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that we will live with him.
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That's just an amazing hope that we have an amazing truth.
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And there's so many Christmas songs that are rich
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in theological truths, but you hear, you know,
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whether it's at, you know, the schools,
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I don't think they sing Christmas songs anymore at schools.
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I think they're winter celebrations or whatever they are.
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Winter break songs.
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Winter festival, that's what they have.
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But there are some songs that even in our own churches,
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I don't think we sing enough of the ones
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that are really meaningful.
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Anyway, we do have to take a break.
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I kind of lost track of time there.
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We got to thank Harbinger's Daily.
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We are so thankful for them for supporting the show.
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We'll be right back with Jay Seagard of the starting point project.
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Today's show is brought to you by Harbinger's Daily.
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Stay informed at harbingersdaily.com.
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So Jay, back to this thought.
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If you wanted to comment at all
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about the Christmas songs and how some of them
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are really, really meaningful,
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theologically and very accurate and very encouraging.
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But I think where we don't hear those enough,
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especially on the radio,
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they tend to sing about Santa and jingle bells
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and whatever else.
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So just your thoughts briefly on that
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and anything else you want to add.
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I mean, the songs are certainly fun.
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You know, the ones that aren't maybe
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doctrinally sound or have no doctrine.
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Again, they're fun.
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They're associated with Christmas.
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I don't think it's wrong listening to them.
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But yeah, the ones that do get very specific
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about who Jesus really is,
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he came to die for our sins and he is God incarnate.
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Those are very important.
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And we need to sing more of them in church.
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But also just in general,
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a lot of people just sing them without even thinking
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about the words, which probably happens in church.
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And a lot of churches don't sing the older hymns.
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And I kind of get that.
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I actually really like the hymns.
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I grew up with them.
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And there's so much doctrine in them.
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I enjoy singing them or some of the,
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some of the modern music just kind of lacks
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any deep knowledge or meaning in them.
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But yeah, the Christmas songs,
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there's there's a lot of gospel message
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in the Christmas songs we could use
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that in witnessing as well.
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But a lot of this comes down to
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all these claims of Christmas that it's
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Jesus who was born, he's the Messiah.
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He made the claim.
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Definitely, it's historically documented
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that he made the claim.
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The question would be, is it true?
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How do we know?
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And you could get into that conversation with people as well.
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Is there evidence that this guy,
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Jesus who changed the world through
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thousand years ago,
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is there evidence that he actually is
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who he claimed to be,
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which is this Messiah that was prophesied
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in the Old Testament because
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the whole Bible is about God created everything.
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We messed it up.
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He was going to fix it by sending his son, the Messiah.
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And even Jews have been awaiting the Messiah.
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And Christians were awaiting the Messiah.
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We believe he came two thousand years ago.
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Is there any evidence that Jesus is that Messiah?
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And there's so much that we could discuss
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if you want to go that route.
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Sure, absolutely.
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I mean, that's why I brought you on.
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You have a lot that you can share about this.
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I mean, think you've been preparing some talks
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on this very topic.
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I'm looking at Luke chapter two right now.
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And I'm thinking, for example,
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what was it, Simeon when he was in Jerusalem
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and responded, he took the baby Jesus
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in his arms and said,
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now Lord, you are letting your bond servant
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depart in peace according to your word.
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For my eyes have seen your salvation,
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which you have prepared in the presence of all the peoples,
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a light for revelation for the Gentiles
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and the glory of your people Israel.
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And then Luke chapter two,
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I encourage you guys to read that,
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especially the second half.
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And then of course, we know the famous
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verses we talk about every Christmas.
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You know, Jesus being the wonderful counselor.
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You know, mighty God, Prince of Peace,
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but there's a verse in there that the government
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will rest on his shoulders.
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So that's future tense.
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So share whatever you'd like about.
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And you also wanted to mention
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we're moving beyond now, Jay,
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the birth of Christ and the word became flesh.
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Now we're moving about his life
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when he entered Jerusalem.
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That was very purposeful
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and that was timed out in biblical prophecy.
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So share whatever you'd like about these things.
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There's, you know, 50 million things
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we could share with our time.
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We'll just focus on one or two,
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depending on how much time we have.
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So the entire Old Testament is prophesying
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that the Messiah is coming.
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The guy who's going to say the world,
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he's coming.
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So they kept waiting waiting.
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All these prophecies,
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how do we know?
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Look, Roman says that at the right time
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Christ came and died for us.
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At the right time was God's timing.
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So 2000 years ago,
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there were a lot of reasons
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which we don't have time to go into
17:52
what is perfect for Christ to arrive.
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And Romans had built the road
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so he could get around,
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get the message out.
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So many good things going on
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for Christ's arrival
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to get that gospel message out.
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So what's really interesting
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about the arrival of Christ
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and this birth
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which we are celebrating Christmas
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in Daniel,
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the Old Testament.
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There's prophecy in Daniel.
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And chapter nine actually has a prophecy
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that can give you the timing
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of the arrival of the Messiah.
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And we don't have time to flush out
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all of my new details,
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but there's this 70-week prophecy
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of Daniel in chapter nine
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and the very short version of this
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is it's broken up into, you know,
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seven years and 62 years
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and then the 70th year basically
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it's prophesying
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when the Messiah would arrive
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and be cut off.
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And there are 69 weeks there
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and in prophecy the weeks
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or weeks of years.
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And so when you do all the numbers
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it's fascinating
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from the time that that was given.
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There was a seven-year period
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until the temple
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or the Jerusalem would be rebuilt
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and then there's another 434 years
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until when the Messiah would be cut off.
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So he arrives and he gets cut off.
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He's crucified.
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When you go through that,
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when you see artiserxes
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giving this decree
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to rebuild Jerusalem,
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it says from that time
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there are this many years
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slotted until the Messiah is
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here and gets cut off.
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Again, you do the math
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with the total number of years
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and 360 days year
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which the Jews had
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they had 360 days in their year.
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You do the math
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and you arrive basically
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at the day that Jesus
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arrived in Jerusalem
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on the donkey.
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First time in his ministry
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publicly accepting
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the acknowledgement
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that he is the true Messiah.
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So you publicly
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let them acknowledge him
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that way,
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wrote into Jerusalem
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and was later crucified.
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Well, that's an amazing
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prophecy over 500 years earlier
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that the Messiah is coming
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even said, when?
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Yes.
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If you don't think Jesus
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was at Messiah,
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what scripture
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pointing to who else
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anywhere near that time
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in history fulfills
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all those prophecies
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and I'll end this portion
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with this.
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What are the chances
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that Jesus shows up?
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He's a guy
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claims to be that Messiah
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that was foretold
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but he's not really the Messiah.
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He just
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coincidentally fulfilled
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the prophecies
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that were listed in the Old Testament.
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We can take a look
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at that Jesus fulfilled
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at least 300 prophecies.
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Okay, what are the chances?
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He's not the Messiah.
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It's just
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coincidence.
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We have one of the odds.
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Take a look at that.
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Yeah.
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What are the, you know,
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a probability
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for just fulfilling
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48 of the major
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300, you know,
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of the 300 total prophecies.
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48 of the major prophecies.
20:37
Now,
20:37
so let's just look at the
20:38
probability
20:40
that Jesus fulfilled
20:41
these prophecies.
20:42
Again, 300 prophecies total,
20:44
400.
20:44
We're going to look at the
20:45
chances of 400
20:46
of the major prophecies
20:48
being fulfilled.
20:49
Just by accident.
20:50
He wasn't really the Messiah.
20:51
He fulfilled him by accident.
20:52
Well, we need to look at some big numbers.
20:54
How about the number of electrons
20:56
in the entire known universe?
20:58
That would be a big number.
20:59
You can write that as a one
21:01
followed by 80 zeros.
21:03
That's how big that number is.
21:04
Massive number.
21:05
Now, what are the chances of,
21:08
let's say,
21:09
getting a royal flush
21:10
into card game?
21:11
I don't play cards much
21:12
and I don't gamble at all.
21:13
But I've been told that
21:14
royal flush is one of the
21:15
the top hand you can get
21:17
one of the chances of being
21:19
dealt a royal flush.
21:21
Just rounding it off one chance
21:23
in 650,000.
21:25
So if you're playing again,
21:26
someone has dealt that hand.
21:29
You probably won't accuse him
21:30
of being a liar,
21:31
but wow did they get lucky?
21:33
Now, you lose some money on that.
21:34
You want to get it back
21:35
so you decide to play three games
21:36
instead.
21:37
And the next two hands
21:38
they also get a royal flush.
21:40
What are the chances of that?
21:42
There's only one chance
21:43
on a hundred million
21:44
billion.
21:45
At that point,
21:46
you're going to be screaming.
21:47
You cheated.
21:47
There's no way you're
21:49
going to get three royal flushes,
21:50
three hands in a row.
21:51
Not going to happen.
21:52
All right, one chance
21:53
of 10 or 100 million
21:55
billion.
21:56
Let's compare that to
21:57
Jesus fulfilling just 48
21:59
of the 300 prophecies.
22:01
That number is one chance
22:03
in a one followed by 157
22:07
zeros.
22:08
That is phenomenal.
22:10
Royal flush three in a row,
22:11
100 million billion.
22:13
Jesus, this is one chance
22:16
in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion
22:23
So what are you going to do with that?
22:25
Are you going to say this guy just got lucky?
22:27
Or is that evidence?
22:29
He's actually who we claim to be.
22:31
One last analogy since all the trillions is just a big number
22:34
Rubik's cube.
22:36
Most people have played
22:37
of the Rubik's cube.
22:38
If I handed you to the cube,
22:39
put a blindfold on and you started
22:41
spitting that thing randomly.
22:42
You have one chance in 10 million trillion
22:46
of getting it right.
22:47
That's how many different combinations there are.
22:49
So how does that compare to Jesus fulfilling just 48 prophecies?
22:54
It's like me handing you the cube, blindfolding you,
22:57
you start spinning it away randomly and you saw that cube
23:01
eight times in a row,
23:02
getting it right every single time.
23:05
That's not going to happen.
23:06
So what do you do with Jesus?
23:09
Amen, brother.
23:10
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
23:12
And there's enough evidence
23:15
that book from many, many years ago,
23:17
evidence that demands a verdict.
23:19
A lot of people don't want to look at these
23:23
they'll call it predictions,
23:24
but they are prophecies from the Bible,
23:26
from the Word of God that he,
23:28
Jesus Christ fulfilled.
23:30
No other human being has fulfilled any of these.
23:34
But Jesus did and yet people still kind of poo-poo it.
23:36
It really is a willful,
23:39
maybe not a willful ignorance J,
23:41
but it's a willful avoidance of the possibility
23:45
that Jesus could be who he says he is and who he said he was.
23:50
So what are we dealing with here when it comes to Christians now?
23:55
Because we kind of get distracted by all the festivities of the season
23:58
and some of us don't have believers in our family.
24:01
So it's kind of a touchy issue to bring up Jesus and who he is.
24:05
But as you said at the beginning of this program,
24:08
this is one of the best times all year round
24:12
to talk to ease into that conversation
24:15
about why we're celebrating.
24:16
Is it just tradition getting together,
24:19
giving gifts, why are we doing this?
24:21
So J, your final thoughts to encourage believers
24:24
to not only remember what we're celebrating
24:28
and just being so thankful for the hope that Jesus Christ has given us
24:33
and just what would you like to share with our viewers?
24:37
Your most important thing is to pray about it ahead of time
24:40
because it's not easy.
24:41
I understand it's not families over.
24:43
You want to have a good time.
24:44
You don't want to be a wet blanket.
24:46
So you need to pray about it,
24:47
but God will give you an opening to start discussing something
24:51
and then just trust the Holy Spirit to give you the words.
24:54
You don't have to have all the apologetics, facts,
24:56
and probabilities down.
24:59
God will lead you in what to say and a lot of times it's more powerful
25:02
just to ask them follow questions.
25:04
Jesus is just a moral teacher.
25:06
Oh, what needs you to that conclusion?
25:08
Well, he had a lot of good stuff to say.
25:10
Well, he also said he was God is that one of the good things.
25:13
Well, no, so then he lied about some things
25:16
but he was good about others and how do you judge?
25:19
So anyway, pray about it.
25:20
God will lead you into these conversations.
25:22
He will honor your efforts and your availability
25:24
and you always, again, leave the heavy lifting to the Holy Spirit
25:27
to do a work in the heart of the person that you're talking to.
25:30
Amen, amen.
25:31
And you reminded me just by saying that,
25:33
always be ready to give an answer for the hope,
25:38
the hope that we have in Christ and the hope that we have,
25:41
if we can't talk about it at Christmas out of all year,
25:45
boy, there's a problem maybe with our own faith
25:48
or trust in God that we can't at least share
25:51
regardless of whether they receive it or not.
25:53
But I like what you said, Jay,
25:54
pray for your family or your friends,
25:56
whoever you might be able to have conversations with.
25:58
The God would prepare their hearts.
26:00
It does sometimes, oftentimes, take the Holy Spirit to nudge us
26:04
but then give us the words to say.
26:05
And let's be sensitive to where they're at.
26:08
We need to be able to know how to respond.
26:10
How did you come to that conclusion if they don't believe Jesus is God
26:14
but believe that maybe that there is a God.
26:16
So Jay, I'm thankful for what you do.
26:18
Again, friends, go to thestartingpointproject.com
26:21
and check out Jay's podcast, starting point
26:24
and the his book, Creation to Christ.
26:27
If you're still looking for Christmas gifts,
26:29
you can get that along with mine.
26:32
But Jay, brother, we will talk to you early, hopefully,
26:36
in the new year, but Merry Christmas to you
26:38
and thanks for your ministry, brother.
26:40
Merry Christmas to you too.
26:41
It's always a pleasure being on the program.
26:43
We look forward to future opportunities.
26:45
Yeah, we'll do it again in Jesus name.
26:47
Well, guys, thanks again for supporting the show
26:49
and for sharing, sharing, sharing on social media.
26:53
It's really interesting how we're limited
26:55
on certain platforms, but they don't appreciate the truth
27:00
and some people are offended by the truth and that's okay.
27:03
That doesn't stop us from proclaiming and declaring the truth
27:06
that Jesus is Lord.
27:08
He is the same yesterday, today and forever
27:10
and that Jesus is the way the truth in the life.
27:13
No one comes to the Father except through Him.
27:16
So Merry Christmas, guys.
27:18
God bless you and as always, keep speaking the truth
27:20
about things that matter.