Latest / Trudge Report / Ep. 134 - Refuge Recovery: Addiction Treatment Through Meditation & Mindful Practice.

Transcript

Ep. 134 - Refuge Recovery: Addiction Treatment Through Meditation & Mindful Practice. · Trudge Report

0:05
SPEAKER_01: Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and welcome to another episode of Trudge Report.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: My name is Sean, and I am your host.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm joined by my good friend and fellow Trudgers, yes, singular tonight, Mr.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: GA Phillips.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: Please remember to listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you may get your podcast.
0:22
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0:26
SPEAKER_01: But as always, please be sure to download on your listening platforms.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Remember to like and subscribe on all social media outlets with the handle at Trudgerport Pod.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: This podcast is brought to you by Stella Mix Podcast Management.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: Just the boys tonight.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: Let her rip, man.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing all right.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh busy week.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm anxiously awaiting uh Labor Day weekend for sure.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it'll be a good one, I think.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh I got uh my mom and her husband coming into town uh for like uh about two weeks to visit.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: So um that'll be cool.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, weather's supposed to be nice.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: So uh up north uh Labor Day weekend is generally the uh the last uh weekend of pool season.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna try to take advantage of that.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: I forgot you live in a cold weather state.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes, indeed.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: But it is supposed to be up in the mid 80s, so we'll take it.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Um this weekend was nice, man.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Got to uh take Lauren out to dinner uh to a new place.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: It was uh it was it was really it was a nice place inside.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: It's like uh it's like an old like 1920s bank, but um on the inside it's all like remodeled.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: They have a a tree in the middle of the restaurant, which was kind of strange.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh I would love to report that the food was excellent, but it was just mid.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, still tough a date night nonetheless.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Um and uh yeah, dude, three uh three fantasy football drafts in the last 24 hours.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: So that's uh that's been a big deal.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Um I let uh Peyton do uh most of the picking tonight.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: So it was his first uh fantasy football.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: How's it?
2:11
SPEAKER_00: How'd you fare?
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh well uh I'm gonna uh he took he he he wanted to take Josh Allen first overall, so uh that's that's what we did.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm I I got a lot of ribbing for that one.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: But that's all right, dude.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: He's the he's like the third uh or or he's the number one scoring fantasy quarterback over the last three seasons.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: So we'll isn't that like a uh a fantasy faux pas.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: You don't draft a quarterback first, is that right?
2:37
SPEAKER_01: Like running back.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, hey kids kids gotta learn, man.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: So um, but I'm I'm fairly confident our team's gonna destroy everybody else, especially Corey Mishner, who also just drafted, but it's weird that he's not here.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Perhaps he's already having remorse.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: Was that the lead with my buddies Tyler and everybody?
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Correct, yes.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um, yeah, I'm putting them all on notice.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm coming for you.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: We're good.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: So good.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: Bring him down.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, dude.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: Other than that, just uh just uh a nice chill weekend and uh yeah, looking forward to a busy week and then Labor Day.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: So how's um uh how are your guard dogs looking?
3:23
SPEAKER_00: You think uh well, I mean they pulled one out today, I mean 11 runs today, but we couldn't manage to score uh two over the last two games combined.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know, man.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: We here's here's the deal.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: We are completely and totally in control of our own destiny.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: We're locked in at the third spot for the wild card right now, and it you know, they that we do have uh statistically speaking, I guess the easiest remaining schedule in baseball, but it's gonna be completely up to us.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: We do still have a a series with the White Sox.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think we got another series with the Yankees in there, um the Red Sox.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it we are entirely in control of our own destiny.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, I would love to see us uh start putting up consistent runs and not these like anomaly games where we're like blasting 11 runs, you know, which is awesome to see.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but dude, and I and I mean like don't get me wrong, coming off of back-to-back sweeps against the Rockies and the Angels, I guess isn't something to necessarily hang your hat on.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: No, but you did your job, you know what I mean?
4:27
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to lose any of those games.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: You did your job.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, there were a couple of phenomenal plays there.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: Anyel martinez is nasty, dude.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: He's fun to watch, he's gonna be good for a long time, too.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, you got the Orioles nipping at your heels, one game back, Blue Jays one and a half, Rangers two games back.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: That's probably it.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Twins and Mariners are four and five games back, tigers five and a half, but like I don't know, a month left in the season, that's a lot.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: But really, so really you got those those three teams Orioles, Blue Jays, Rangers.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, wild though the Orioles are only one game back with dumping Adley Rutchman and everybody they dumped.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: It's wild.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: But um American League is kind of it's rough this year, but it doesn't matter.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: You get hot at the right time.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: So my uh my Braves at second second in the NL or what?
5:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, well, hold on.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: They are I know here's what I know.
5:25
SPEAKER_01: We're five games ahead of the Phillies in the division, which is all I truly care about.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: No, we're we're third, third spot, but still division leader, and like I said, five games um ahead of the of the Phillies, yeah, and five, and five games ahead of that first wildcard spot.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: So really it's just let's let's just win the division, let's get a good seed.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, we'll see how it how it all shakes out.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: We have we actually have the same record as the Dodgers right now, coming off of a sweep of them.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: We swept them, which was really nice.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, so we'll see.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be fun.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: This is this is so much uh you know me, bro.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: I love baseball.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: I love September.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: This this this race is gonna be great.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: The playoffs, I I uh I live for every every moment of it.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: So I'm happy right now.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: Happy right now.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: Um how's wedding planning going?
6:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh good, man.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: We um actually we're like we're like, you know, what nine months out, right?
6:18
SPEAKER_01: July of next year.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're like 10 10 months out, yeah.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: 10 months out.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, actually technically like 11.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, almost almost 11.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, things are um, I mean, we got all of our vendors booked.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh I I went and picked out uh a suit the other day for engagement photos.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: Ah, yes.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh we're gonna be ancillary fees that come with a wedding.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes, indeed.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: So um, and let me tell you, the suit was uh suit was a pretty penny for sure.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: But um one of our one of our neighbors and and good friends.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: They don't have a cardita up there, do they?
6:55
SPEAKER_00: Remember Cardita?
6:56
SPEAKER_00: Cardita, no Cliff?
6:58
SPEAKER_00: No, but ultimate gentleman Cliff.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: We got the uh we got Tick nurse up here with John.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and uh he is uh he is a friend, so he hooked it up a little bit.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, man, it's it's uh you know, there's there's always something to do on that front.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: So but thankfully, um you know, uh we've got most of the vendors picked out.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: We've got you know, I I feel like I should be a little bit more um concerned.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I maybe a little bit too relaxed about it because I know that once once a certain point in time hits, it's just gonna time's gonna fly, you know, and roll right.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: We've got a little time before that.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: But so got a little time.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look forward to getting everybody up there.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Next summer that'll be fun.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: Um not really too much to report on my end.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: It's actually a quiet weekend.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: It it uh it rained most of yesterday.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: Um the girls had a like a some kind of picnic barbecue that they were supposed to go to um as part of their it's uh I don't even know how to describe it.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: Basically, like just a bunch of people from school, like a bunch of families and kids and all that from school.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: They try to do it like like a community thing almost.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: But uh it got rained out, so they were kind of bummed, but all is good, man.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: They're doing good.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: Um Girl Scouts is back in full swing.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: Sophia's going on a Sophia's going on her first big like weekend long camping trip in October without us.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Like she's going with some of her friends that are on in the troop and a couple of those moms that we know are chaperoning, and then like two out of the three troop leaders are chaperoning.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: So it's not like she's gonna be with strangers, but it's a it's a Halloween themed, you know.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: Where are they going?
8:42
SPEAKER_01: It's uh in Cluiston, which is like middle of nowhere, Florida, essentially.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: Like just you know, head west, um, literally middle of nowhere.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: Camp uh Camp Naughty over in Cluiston, but it's a Halloween theme.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: They're gonna have all kinds of spooky stuff and all that kind of good stuff.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: So she's pumped, she's really excited she gets to go without her little sister.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, Grace is my darling, darling Grace is not quite ready for that, something like that yet.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, to be without us for two full nights and and two days, and just she gets she gets spooked kind of easily.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: So that would that would knock that's one of those things we would drop her off at like 6 p.m.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: on Friday, and by like nine o'clock on Friday, they'd be calling out.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: And it's an it's an hour and like 45 minutes away, so it's like just far enough.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: But I'm gonna plan something.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna probably try to plan a sleepover for her that weekend so she has something to do.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: But is uh soap slanging those cookies or what, dude?
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Not yet, not yet.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't, it doesn't, it hasn't started yet.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's coming, it's coming soon.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm already getting the emails.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: Are you pumped for that, dude?
9:45
SPEAKER_00: Are you pumped to get cases of cookies dropped off of your house?
9:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, whatever.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: We did it.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: So like when they when they started last year, they came into the middle, almost middle end of cookie season.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: So we didn't have to do too much, but we still did, you know, we we were I remember one morning we had the one of the local hardware stores over in uh Palm City over here.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: We that was like you have to because each family has to sign up, you know, for like a handful of you know, either Saturday or Sunday or like Thursday night, you know, stations, you know, at a Win Dixie or a Publix or whatever, right?
10:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we did, and we had I dude, but we we literally I was like planning to be there for hours on hours.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: We sold out in like 45 minutes, dude.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: Those things literally go like hotcakes, and like two beautiful darling little girls coming up to you, like people are just like, Oh yeah, let's just give me 10 boxes, kid.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I, you know, I I like group texted a whole bunch of our friends up up here and was like, Hey guys, girls are gonna be out at da da da da da come see them.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: And they were all really cool.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: A lot of them came out and bought a bunch and stuff like that.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: So nice, it's all good, yeah.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't mind it, dude.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of cookies, and I know that you're no stranger, uh, as your your mom has been a flight attendant for god many years now.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the you know the biscoff cookies that they hand out on the airplane, 100% fantastic.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: They're the best, dude.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: Do you know that there is a spread that they make, dude?
11:13
SPEAKER_00: I've heard we got some over the it's so good.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: It's so good.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: Spread it on some graham cracker, dude.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh absolutely.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: I'll just put on some toast, dude.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: I'll just like toast up some bread and just you could you could just eat a spoonful.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: It is that good.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: It they make a spread.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Go get the spread.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: They have that, and the uh you know what else is good is like the cookie butter spread.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they have the cookie butter spread.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: That's that's uh it makes that that stuff makes me happy, that's for sure.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, not too much else.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: Everything's good on my end.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: Um I'm trying to think if there's anything really not not much going on, just back in the full swing of things, and you know, so baby's doing good.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: We had his birthday party a few weeks ago.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: He's fantastic.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to dude, rookie mistake by Catherine and I.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: Rookie, rookie mistake.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, when you get when you have a a child and they're on they start drinking from bottles, the nipple on the bottle, there's a a a different flow.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: There's stages, right?
12:14
SPEAKER_01: There's a newborn flow, like how fast it comes out, the stage one, stage two, three, and up to four.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: And then after four, stage four is basically like sippy cup style, and then and then you're off to the races, you know, learning that.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: And for some reason, we went from the newborn flow to the stage one flow, like you know, at some point when he was still a baby baby, and then we just never did stage two, three, and four.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: So he's now a year old a couple weeks ago, and we're trying to wean him off a bottle and get him onto a sippy cup, and dude, he's not fucking having it, like not having it at all, is just in protest, will not drink, and like I can only last so long before I'm just like, all right, here's your bottle, dude.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, right, you know, because I'm not if he doesn't have his bottle, he's not gonna go to sleep, you know, all that stuff, right?
13:00
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, we're now we're compromising the harmony of the household, you know.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: But he is he is he just won't drink, like, and he'll just fuss and and all that.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: So we said, you know what, let's you know, so we got the stage two and and seamless transition from stage one to two.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna do two for like a week, week and a half, and then do three for, you know, and then kind of do it like that.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: And um, the cool thing is I have I found this thing on Amazon, like the bottles that he has, they have these little rubber handle things that slip right over it that so it like turns it into a sippy cup.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: So it'll you know, we'll we'll see.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: But I was I couldn't believe it, man.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: Not having it, dude.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: Nope.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: Obstinate.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Rookie mistake, but he's doing good.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: He's he's fan, he's big boy, dude.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: He's a yeah, a big old boy.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: He's already in 18 to 24 month clothing.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: Big old boy, dude.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all right.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: So all good.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, before we go any further, God knows what Corey's doing.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Don't even we won't even question that one, but um prayers and thoughts to uh to Dan um and some family of Dan.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: We won't name who, we won't get into detail, but just you know, T's and P's up for uh some of Dan's family.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: Um someone in that family is going through some some health stuff right now, and he's he is attending to that, so he he has a valid excuse.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh Corey, um, you know, we will still collect his his dues for tonight um as he is an unexcused absence, but um, but Dan Dan is excused and um we wish you know him and and the family the best and they're in our prayer.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: So just want to do that.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: All right.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: Um so we a few weeks ago we did we talked about uh Buddhist style recovery, and uh we had at the end of that episode we said that we're gonna delve into all different kinds of recovery programs because after all, uh we are a recovery-based podcast, and while the four of us subscribe to a certain particular type of recovery, uh we are all open-minded, and we are not here to um promote that particular brand of recovery specifically that we're involved in.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: We're here to talk about recovery in general.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes, our personal experiences with a lot of stuff, but we we felt that it was time to um, you know, just dive into some other recovery programs and and give the listeners some information because who knows, like what works for us may not work for others, and what doesn't, you know, there's other stuff out there.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: There are other avenues to recovery.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: Greg, you know as well as I do, our literature talks about, you know, we have no monopoly on God, we have no monopoly on how to get sober.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: We have a pretty good way that works for us, and that I think if a lot of people follow it, it's probably pretty good, but there are other ways out there.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: So we did Buddhist style recovery, and um, at the end of that, we touched on kind of the two offshoots of that, which was refuge recovery and recovery dharma.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, I was gonna combine both of them into tonight's episode, but honestly, I found a lot of really fascinating information about refuge recovery, which was the first offshoot of um from the Buddhist style recovery.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: So we kind of just stuck with that.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: Um there's some, you know, some of the practices are very similar to Buddhist style recovery, hence why it's an offshoot of it.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: But um, there's some really interesting stuff about its founder um and and quote leader, and then why he didn't, why he was not the leader anymore.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: There's some some uh some legal stuff that happened and just kind of the whole um you know evolution of this and how it came to be, I thought was pretty fascinating.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: So um Greg and I did some research and we are just gonna kind of kind of rock and roll off that.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: So I'll start um and then you know we'll we'll kind of go from there.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: And and Greg, anything you want to stop and pause on and elaborate on and talk on, uh, we can do that.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: So we're just gonna hop back and forth here.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: So Refuge Recovery uh is a mindfulness-based recovery program established by a gentleman named Noah Levine.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh that name might sound familiar.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: His father, Stephen Levine, Stephen with a pH, you always got to watch out for those guys.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: Um he was like a spiritual writer, um, not so much Christian-based, but but but into the Buddhist practices and and possibly a deep dive on him might be a good idea at some point.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: But um, so Noah Levine started uh mindfulness meditation uh in the kind of the mid, like it's in here, but like in the mid-2010s, like 2014-ish.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: And um, so this process uses meditation um and process meetings.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: It's non-theistic, right?
17:37
SPEAKER_01: So no, no theology, no God, um, focuses on internal wisdom and meditative discipline.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: Refuge recovery represents one of the most significant shifts in modern peer support, moving away from traditional 12-step God-centered frameworks towards mindfulness, meditation, and Buddhist psychology.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: So I'll kick it to you, Greg.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: So before Refuge Recovery existed as an official organization, its foundation was built by Noah Levine.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh, he's a prominent Buddhist teacher, uh, author of Dharma Punks, Punks with an X there.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and uh, as you mentioned, Sean's son of renowned meditation author Stephen Levine, uh-huh.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: He uh spent his youth in juvenile halls and struggling with a severe addiction before turning to uh vipassana or vipana uh vipassana.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: I think that's right.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: I think that's pretty good.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Um which is basically insight meditation in the late 80s.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: And for years, people in recovery attended Le Levine's meditation groups seeking an alternative to 12-step programs, which many felt relied too heavily on the concept of a higher power.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Levine realized that the core tenets of Buddhism, specifically the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, which we already spoke about a couple episodes ago, were inherently a system for ending craving and suffering.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: Um so in 2014, uh the the kind of the growth of all this stuff, it started in 2014.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: Levine published uh Refuge Recovery, a Buddhist path to recovering from addiction.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: And we we'll circle back a little bit to the Dharma Punks thing, but um he he published this book, and uh the book provided strict, structured alternative to AA or NA and other 12-step programs that are out there.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh, instead of surrendering to a power greater than yourself, refuge recovery taught that recovery comes through uh personal practice, mindfulness, and understanding that craving is the root cause of addiction.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the movement exploded globally.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: Meetings opened up across the US and Canada, Europe and Australia.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: Treatment centers began offering refuge recovery tracks alongside 12-step programs, and it filled a major gap for secular, Buddhist, and non-theistic individuals seeking peer support.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: So I want to pause there for a second because um, you know, when we did the Buddhist style recovery, like that that didn't come forth until I think it was like the 1950s or 60s, but so there was a long, long period.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, they reference in this research, it references AA and other 12-step programs.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: And and, you know, I looked at some of that stuff and some of the history of that stuff, and that was like like the the mid-1930s that that you know Alcoholics Anonymous began.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, it wasn't until like the I think it was like the 70s that like narcotics anonymous and and now we have dozens and dozens and dozens of 12-step, but really for the longest time, it was really just like AA those main 12-step based and like the Buddhist path.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: And this stuff took, I mean, this is you know, a long time.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So um just something to note.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: So go ahead.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: So um in between 2018-2019, uh uh refuge recovery is at its peak.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: The movement was hit by a major inner internal crisis.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh, in 2018, allegations of sexual misconduct and financial mismanagement surfaced against No Levine.
21:11
unknown: Uh-huh.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: That'd be uh a big surprise uh for for most people, unless you've studied uh cults and cult leadership and stuff like that.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: Not making any crazy accusations.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: I know I've got a a habit of that.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: So um The investigation against meditation, the nonprofit uh spiritual organization Levine founded, uh, conducted an independent investigation and subsequently removed him from his teaching position.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: After which a bitter legal and organizational rift formed between Levine and the Independent Board of Refuge Recovery.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: Levine retained ownership of the book copyright and trademark, while many meeting leaders lost trust in his leadership.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's interesting to pause on too, because you know.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: He was the founder, right?
22:01
SPEAKER_01: He founded this movement.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: And then at some point, uh, you know, there became a a board, you know, that that came to be and and ultimately, you know, had the power to, you know, overthrow him, so to speak.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's a little bit of a dramatic term, but it it is kind of that, you know.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, so many of these movements, whether it's recovery-based or religious-based or or even political based, that that have this one singular founder that kind of takes the spotlight and takes like front-center stage.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, God, I mean, I feel like more often than not, like some dirt comes out on them and some some allegations of some sort.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: It's not always sexual misconduct or anything like that, but it is uh it does, it does seem like, you know, you you joked about the cult leader stuff, but it does seem like they get they get a little self-righteous and they get kind of the power goes to their head and they think they can maybe get away with stuff um that they, you know, that they shouldn't, right?
23:04
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: So um so February to March 2018, this is just a little more info on the allegations.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: They they surface, this is more details.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: Allegations surface after a woman filed a report with the Los Angeles Police Department claiming sexual assault during a relationship with Noah Levine.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, it found that basically they examined the allegations, uh, including the sexual assault and improper behavior, and the findings concluded that Levine had likely violated the Buddhist code of ethics regarding creating harm through sexuality.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: He was accused of having non-consensual sex, uh, affairs with married women who completely, which completely go against the practices of his Buddhist teachings and programs.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: And the more I dug into it, it basically sounded like he had a relationship with this woman.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: And then naturally, as these things do, other women came forward.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: But it it sounds like he had he did have some consensual sex or or relations with with these women, and then at some point it became non-consensual.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: Now, I don't, you know, will we ever know the details of that?
24:11
SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm not even sure it's uh, I mean, it's important for the investigative side of things, but um, but that's essentially what it was.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: And uh one report I had, like he he met with a woman that was new to refuge recovery and trying to get involved in it, like met her at her house.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: And like whether it was that same day or the next time he met her, he tried to he basically like took his shirt off and tried to make advances at her, and she repeatedly said no, no, no, no, stuff like that.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Um so but regardless, and he later admits this, but he he denies all the allegations, but admits, which you're gonna read next, you know, that um that he wasn't following the the essential precepts of his program.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: So go ahead.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: So the conflict reached a breaking point in 2019, wanting to detach uh the Buddhist recovery framework from a single central figurehead and legal battle, the vast majority of the community voted to branch off entirely.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: In 2019, the grassroots community founded Recovery Dharma, establishing it as a fully democratic, peer-led, non-hierarchical, nonprofit with open source literature.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: And up through the present day, refuge recovery continues to operate under Levine's direction, but Recovery Dharma quickly grew to become larger, the larger of the two organizations worldwide.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: So I th I think that's interesting too, because as you see, it said it became a democratic peer-led program.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: And as far as I know, and the research I've done, and I know you've done some and the experiences, is like that's what the 12-step programs are, right?
25:50
SPEAKER_01: They are like fully democratic in nature.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: There are really no leaders.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, nobody governs anything.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: It's it's really kind of like uh, well, I guess you shouldn't say there's no leaders, but the leaders don't really hold any authority, right?
26:02
SPEAKER_01: They don't hold any power.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, they kind of they lead by example, but not mandate.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one of the reasons why you've seen the success of 12-step programs a little more is because of that, that um decentralized, if you will, kind of like structure to it.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: You know, again, when you have one person that's started it all, it's really difficult.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, I would imagine it's really difficult for them to after a time set their ego aside and like really pass on to the next kind of flow of things.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: And and when you have people that are maybe not agreeing with everything that you're doing.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: So um, so it is important that he did deny all the allegations, but you know, admitted that he, you know, wasn't following the practices and and ultimately after a bitter fight, he did step down, like you said.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, and like you said, recovery Dharma was born.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh so just a little bit going back to Noah Levine.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so he was uh he grew up in California during the late 1980s and 1990s, uh sinking into severe drug addiction, violence, crime, and multiple periods of juvenile detention.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Um he was a big punk rocker, and that's where the Dharma punks came in.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: He wrote that book, and it was essentially how to to how like the the energy and and whatever of punk rock could kind of blend and mold with sobriety and this Buddhist stuff.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Um he uses punk music and a rebellious attitude to fight back against the views uh as a corrupt and broken society, which just like as a sidebar, like that's such an old, like tired excuse to be an anarchist, right?
27:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, like society and like the 1% and it's broken, and like like screw the man, like that is such a tired and old, so like that giving I'm using that as an excuse to just cause total chaos and destruction and break the law and do whatever I want.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Like most people that that are shouting that from the rooftops, like this Noah Levine guy are not actually taking any appropriate progressive, like responsible action to to end corruption in society or whatever.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: They're just using it as an excuse essentially to do literally whatever they want.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: That's that's the whole thing, right?
28:23
SPEAKER_00: Is is is is are you anti-establishment and anti whatever, anti-government and everything like that because you truly believe that you could find uh a better, more peaceful solution to what we currently have or or or did have back in the day, or are you just uh wanting to be an anarchist for anarchist sakes and you uh think it looks cool and edgy and awesome to be a part of that, you know?
28:55
SPEAKER_00: Or you feel you you and we've we've seen this in the rooms of recovery quite often where people people see themselves out um but because they think that they are not you know, they they don't they don't fit in, they don't feel like they fit in, they don't feel comfortable, and they they kind of edge themselves out out the door, you know, um because of that.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: I that's what I mean.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: Like it it doesn't you don't really see those people like the ones that actually are trying to make real change, you they're not as loud about it.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: And what what I mean is like they're not they're not like getting into the you know spotlight, the national spotlight.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, they're not you know writing these books necessarily and being these loud, outspoken critics.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: They're they're quietly working um, you know, behind the scenes and and working with lawmakers and and legislation and policyholders and lobbyists, and they're kind of doing that to make some real like grassroots change rather than like what you said, like this guy just seems like it was an excuse for him to um to just cause total destruction and and chaos, you know.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: So um, I'll let you you can finish that out about him, what how he hit rock bottom and how he got sober and stuff if you want.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh while he's locked up in a padded cell at Juvie, uh age 17, he experiences a breaking point that forces him to change.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: Influenced in part by his father, he discovers uh vipassana, mindfulness meditation, and um you know begins using that uh and instead of abandoning his punk rock roots, he blends the raw energy of punk rock with the compassion and wisdom of Buddhist teachings to heal himself and to uh help others.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you know, part of the problem is like when we we did it last when we did it last time a few weeks ago in the Buddhist recovery, like there's some really cool stuff in there, and some stuff that I actually think legitimate, well, a lot of it overlaps with with with what we already do in our recovery programs, but like there's some really cool stuff that I I do legitimately think you know could be helpful to people and could really make a difference for people struggling with drug addiction or or whatever.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, the all the all the chaos and the legal stuff and and and the whole idea of it some sometimes gets like it crowds everything else out, you know what I mean?
31:26
SPEAKER_01: It it crowds everything else out.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: Um but like I said, you know, it that's kind of the great thing about it all is that um you know, we're we live in a in a country, we live in a time and a society that you can, you know, I I can only imagine how much bigger these things would have gotten had they had they I mean 2014, yeah, there was social media around, but it wasn't uh you know, it wasn't um you know quite like it is now, you know what I mean?
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Like um and how much that stuff could you know could really help people, you know what I mean?
32:05
SPEAKER_01: So um but yeah, very interesting.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: I think I think that I think that when we said it off the top, I get I can get pretty like dogmatic about the recovery program I work, you know, how it it is it is not the only one, but I I I see too many, you know.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: I had a for instance, I had a friend, he's not really a friend, he's more of an acquaintance, but he's a a a good friend of one of my friends, and he was sober for a long time, and he did one of the 12-step programs, I can't remember, but then he stopped and he switched over to like the the Buddhist style recovery, and I don't know if it was specifically refuge recovery or recovery dharma, it might have been recovery dharma.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I heard him mention that.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: Um and like not too long ago, like he got drunk, you know.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: Now, I'm not saying that he got drunk specifically because the program he was working just doesn't work, but I I do think there is my thing, has always been why can't these things coexist together, right?
33:12
SPEAKER_01: Let's say you get sober in a 12-step program, and why can't you use Buddhist practices and and and have that be a part of your program rather than what a lot of people do is like, oh, I'm putting this one over here and I'm only gonna focus on this one over here?
33:32
SPEAKER_01: People do the same thing with church all the time, right?
33:34
SPEAKER_01: Nothing against church at all.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: How many people have we seen, Greg, that have been really solid in the rooms of recovery, and then it like they like stop doing the recovery and they just go to church.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: And yes, some of them stay sober, but a lot of them don't.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, why can't those two things just coexist together?
33:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's always been my thing, you know.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: Right, right, yeah.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think too, you know, I mean, everybody uh, you know, at least uh I I've seen a lot lately on social media, like uh, you know, point to the low success rates of a good chunk of these programs.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: A lot of the fire uh gets pointed at 12-step based recovery.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: And you know, the the there's all kinds of not that I don't think you can ever get the best statistics on any of these programs because it's not like any of these these programs are all voluntary and they're they they should for the most part all be free.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: Um if you're out there paying for it uh a weekly subscription to uh recovery, just know that you don't have to do that um necessarily.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: But I think that um you know, 12-step programs they they catch a lot of heat, a lot a lot of fire, um uh, you know, uh due to low success rates.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think that well, number one, again, uh it's it's hard to truly judge uh a real success rate because again, we're talking about people, we're talking about people, nobody's nobody's registered, nobody's sobriety dates are registered anywhere.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: So no way to really track it, you know.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: But if if we do look at, you know, um those of us who have been in recovery for a good long time and have seen a lot of people come and go, it it it's no secret that um the nature of addiction and the way that addiction is, uh, and the way that the human mind works and and everything along with it, um the the success rates aren't great, you know.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think that when you have a lot of this different stuff, it is easy to to for fellowships and different um different avenues of recovery to point fingers at one another when when realistically the the problem at the center of this is uh addiction and even more so like the human condition, um and and what really uh is down at the core of all of us.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: Because uh because at the end of the day, uh sure, addicts and alcoholics especially, and and I'll and I'll stick to that for what I know, but you know, really like the broad population in general, we're all seeking something.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Something's missing in each and every one of us, you know.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that that is the human condition, and we're all out here looking for something to fill it.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: I think that uh the the avenue of recovery that I took, um, the avenue of recovery that you took, those have worked for us.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: And and I and I try to just remember that like I don't need to muddy the waters.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: I that doesn't mean that I don't keep seeking and I and I don't find like this stuff interesting, and uh, you know, maybe even interesting enough to crack open a book and do my own research because what I've learned about spirituality is that we should keep seeking, you know, and we should we should always uh seek uh you know, not to steal uh something out of a you know a Buddhist book, but further enlightenment, right?
36:58
SPEAKER_00: That's that should be um you know the the ultimate goal in all this.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: Sure, the the early goals early on, we've talked about it a million times on here, is to sober up and get right and get back on a on some kind of beam.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we've never even been on the beam, you know.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: So maybe it's finding that beam and that measurement for what you want your life to be, you know.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, and and that's all that's all early on stuff.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: That's within the first couple of years.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, as as time wears on and as life gets on, things can get stale and stagnant.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's what to your point when you talked about the guy that just decides to go to church and ends up drinking again, the guy that just decides to do this.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think that for some of us the seeking is is what's missing um a lot of times because I've uh you and I have both met uh hundreds of people, I think, that have had multiple years or even decades of sobriety and been some of the most miserable people you've ever met in your life.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, and they're just one bad day away from making a really bad decision, you know.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Um so I think that uh you know I d I don't I don't take I don't take issue with any of this.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: The only thing I do take issue with when it comes to refuge recovery, and I've only ever met a couple of people that have that have done it.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: Um and again, like you know, so out of the three people that I know that have done it, one of them one of them could not staber to save his life, and I'm pretty sure he's in prison um now.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: If he's not in prison, he's just recently released from.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: So um you know, and and I think that um when you when you have something like this that you know I think the recovery dharma, you know, when when we're talking about like non-hierarchical stuff, right, right.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: When we're talking about truly pure led, like yeah, maybe you have some some trusted leaders who you know maybe you you have decided that might lead an area or something like that, or or um be helpful in in making decisions, especially as as something grows to where it's on a national level, you do need some kind of leadership, right?
39:22
SPEAKER_00: But but I think that you know what I've what I've seen work best is you know what we what we refer to as the spirit of rotation, you know.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: So those leaders don't ever stay in place for long.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that that's the big problem with with this refuge recovery, right?
39:39
SPEAKER_00: Is that you know, yes, I understand all all alleged against this no Levine guy, but if he is the leader, and and we what we know about addiction in our own conditions, you know, um is that the ego is an MFR man and it will run rampant on you uh provided you have an especially in a setting where you have a whole bunch of people looking up to you and asking you for guidance and asking you for answers and stuff like that.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: It takes uh it takes the the very much the right kind of person to be in that position, and I certainly wouldn't want to be in it, you know, and I wouldn't want to test out that experiment, you know, for myself.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I I just know like that that is in essence, you know, if you've if you've ever studied Colts, that is that is kind of it's there are some there are some sneaky kind of eerily similar things going on there, I would agree.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or at least there was.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: I think that that they've broken off from Noah Levine and they've kind of like done their own thing now, and then the recovery dharma thing that came up.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: And so I you know, 100% like at the beginning of what you were saying about I'm gonna I'll go back to Emmett Fox, right?
40:55
SPEAKER_01: Emmett Fox has that one reading where it talks about he's using the analogy of the African diamond fields, right?
41:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, and and in the African diamond fields, there's like the top layer, and then the very first layer is like yellow clay, and then it is like red clay, and like deeper and deeper, you deeper, you get like darker and like blue clay, and like you know, obviously the more expensive diamonds are deeper and deeper down, or the more expensive, you know, the more valuable stones that turn into diamonds, however, it however all that works.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: But the point is he he always says, you know, don't rest in the yellow clay, which is like the top level, right?
41:32
SPEAKER_01: So for us, it's like don't rest in like thinking that we're good and I have all the knowledge and experience that I need.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: Like we talk about that all the time.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: Let me always remember that I want to remain teachable and I want to remain willing to learn and grow.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: And that's part of why we wanted to do these deep dives because we wanted to learn and grow.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: And like we said, you know, there's some awesome stuff.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: Like the whole idea of the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, like that, those were awesome.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: Those were like those concepts were awesome.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: And like the Buddhist practice in general is a wonderful, wonderful thing.
42:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, I've known some over the years, like not even necessarily people in recovery, just actual people that practice Buddhism, and they're awesome people.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think they really do, in a lot of ways, have like a pretty good idea of what life is all about.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: But like then you get this kind of like this this this young guy from he's from Los Angeles, Noah Levine was, and the punk rock thing, and like you it becomes sensationalized and it becomes like this this like thing, this the next big thing, you know.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: And um, I don't know, it doesn't have it doesn't have much staying power.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: So on that note, I have some like statistics here um about refuge recovery, and it says it has a little over 500 active meetings.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, it says globally, right?
42:51
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if those are you know it says in-person and online formats, so like who knows what those numbers really are.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: Um but it um says the average participant is approximately 46 to 50 years old, which I thought was that's like kind of higher than I thought it would be.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: I thought this would definitely be geared towards like your you know, your your cool hip, you know, crunchy granola tree hugging, you know.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: But when was when was the uh when was punk rock the most popular?
43:23
SPEAKER_00: Like that is true in the 80s and 90s.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, all those old heads are yep.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: That's really a pretty pretty good split uh of male-female participation, 45% female to 49% male.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: And of course, of course, it wouldn't be 2026, uh 5.7 percent non-binary, Greg.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: Um I don't know if you I don't know if you know what that is.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the fuck that means.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we'll save that for another podcast.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: Um uh there is a a high inclusivity of the LGBTQ.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't even know what this says, 2S plus.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't really even know what that means, but it does say that there's a high.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Higher inclusivity of that, which like I was thinking about this earlier, like that makes sense, especially if you're juxtaposing that with different 12-step programs that do talk about a God and a higher power and stuff.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot of this kind of like you know, these this younger generation um that is coming, and they just they want nothing to do with you know religion or God or higher power or anything, which I say that, and I actually feel like very small and slowly, I know it may not seem like it, that society is starting to kind of come back around to that a little bit and and getting more some more Christian values.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, I also think that in in a weird way, even though there's still a lot of stuff out there, it is kind of we are going back to like a uh we're not as sensitive, maybe as we were in like 2022, 23.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
44:56
SPEAKER_01: Like it's starting to come back very, very slowly for a number of reasons, but that's that's slightly off topic.
45:03
SPEAKER_01: Um it says over 80% of participants attempted other recovery programs or treatment programs before joining uh the Buddhist recovery path, and 50% report a simultaneous or prior involvement in 12-step programs.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: So that's pretty cool.
45:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, so like it says, you know, whether those numbers are completely accurate, but half of the people that are practicing Buddhist style recovery practices are also involved in 12-step programs, which to our point was like, why can't those things um exist together?
45:34
SPEAKER_01: Which I think is is pretty cool.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so I don't know, juxtapose that though, like 500 plus meetings, and I don't know the exact numbers, but I know like some of those 12-step programs have like millions and millions of members.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, there are I don't even know how to describe it.
45:54
SPEAKER_01: There are are hundreds and hundreds of meetings just in like specific counties of specific states, right?
46:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, so it's compared to that, this is still pretty, pretty small potatoes, you know, stuff.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: It's the the continual search, like you were saying, the continual search for quote something, right?
46:19
SPEAKER_01: That whole idea, like, oh, I don't believe in God, and then they're sharing in a recovery group about, you know, well, I crashed the car and something kept me unharmed, and I should have gotten arrested and went to jail, but something kept me at it's like, well, wait a second, like you listen.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: If you listen to yourself, you're you know, what it what's the something you're talking about, right?
46:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I don't know.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: I know I wouldn't be sober today without the God of my understanding.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: There's no question about it.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: I also have no desire.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: I have I have a desire to learn and to continue to grow.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: I have no desire or like this feeling of like, oh, it's not enough.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: What I'm doing isn't good anymore, and I gotta go try something else.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: Like I I've never had that.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't have that currently.
47:06
SPEAKER_01: I hope I never have that.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: I hope, you know, that the recovery program that we all subscribe to, that I I stay, you know, hungry for it and passionate about it and involved in it, most importantly, you know, for the rest of my days.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: So I mean, for for a guy like me, um, I need it kept really simple and and what has worked for me for over a decade continues to work, and that is a connection with a higher power, uh, you know, um, the ability to be able to look at myself in the mirror and um stop pointing fingers at everybody else and start pointing those fingers right back at myself and and seeing where I can be a better human being and helping other people, you know, and and essentially that is um a really crude way to sum up uh a whole lot of words in literature and a and a whole lot of experiences over the past decade.
48:06
SPEAKER_00: Um I think that if something like this Buddhist path is is working for you, that's awesome, man.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: Because uh again, it's it's it's about uh what can we do to um stay sober, clean up the wreckage of our past, and ultimately become better human beings out of all this kind of stuff.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, however, if you find yourself floundering and if you find that um you know refuge recovery or or recovery dharma or or whatever the case may be was the eighth different uh shot at recovery that you gave and it and it still didn't work, you know, I would I would start uh seeking out some stuff that that's that's proven that's been around a long time and and really really go after it, you know.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: Um because what we're playing around with nowadays, and it doesn't matter.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm not even just talking about the the crazy opioids out there, I'm talking about good old-fashioned alcoholism is is killing people left and right.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: So um yeah.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: Keep it keep it as simple as possible.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: Don't convoluted too much.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: And hey, if you need help finding a recovery program or getting started, or you're not what sure which way to go, you can reach out to us on any of our social media uh platforms at Trudge Report Pod.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, or you can email us, trudgeReportpod at yahoo.com.
49:31
SPEAKER_01: Um we can help with that.
49:34
SPEAKER_01: Like that's legitimately, you know, one of the main reasons we started this podcast is we wanted to help not just in what we're talking about and our listeners, but like if people don't know where to get started or they don't know, like they just there's so much because there is a lot of different recovery programs out there, and depending on who you talk to, they're gonna try to, you know, most people have a personal stake in one of them, if not more than one.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: So they're gonna try to, you know, hey, come to our treatment center, hey, come to this or come to that.
50:04
SPEAKER_01: And hell, I'm gonna do it too.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: If you come to me, I'm gonna say, hey, this is what I do, I'll be happy to bring you along and let you check it out for yourself, you know.
50:11
SPEAKER_01: Um the important thing is that uh if you do need help, you have someone in your corner that you can turn to or talk to and find that information.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: So if you if you really, really, really need help, if you're a real corker, can't stay on the wagon, let us know.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: We'll send you on an all in inclusive trip, uh, eight-hour trip to the home of Corey.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: And after after eight hours with that guy, trust me, you'll want to get sober.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: You'll you'll wanna amongst other things.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: I think both of his kids are trying to get sober now after living with him for a handful of years.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, thank you, Greg.
50:52
SPEAKER_01: I I know just the two of us tonight, you know, the boys are occupied again.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: Shout out to Dan and his family.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, shout out to Corey for whatever the heck he might be doing uh that he thinks he's he's got that are more important than than spending time with us.
51:05
SPEAKER_01: But I appreciate you.
51:06
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate the the work and the research.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: And um uh shout out to our listeners.
51:11
SPEAKER_01: Please like, follow, and share on all socials at Trud Report Pod.
51:15
SPEAKER_01: Email us, TrudreportPod at yahoo.com, send in your mailbag requests for topics, questions, comments to any of these handles.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: Remember, we are all here.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: If anyone um wants to talk about recovery, talk about our experiences, or if you are struggling with some form of addiction, thank you again again to Janine and Stella Mix Podcast Management.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: Good night, God bless, and may you trudge the road of happy destiny.
51:39
SPEAKER_01: See everybody next week.