Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Star Wars: The Phantom Menace with Laura Brody, Jennifer May Nickel, and John Paul Nickel

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Star Wars: The Phantom Menace with Laura Brody, Jennifer May Nickel, and John Paul Nickel · The Art of Costume Podcast

0:06
Hello, welcome to the Art of Costume.
0:07
I'm Elizabeth Joy Glass. And I'm Spencer Williams.
0:11
Happy Star Wars Month, Elizabeth.
0:12
Star Wars. One me too it it's a good one.
0:18
It's a good one. It's been a long time coming.
0:21
It's also been a while since we've done this.
0:23
How are you? I know I'm good, I'm good.
0:25
Been binge watching a lot of television, otherwise I'm
0:30
fantastic. Yeah, well, I'm good because we
0:32
just had a Star Wars pizza party.
0:35
We did, we did. We absolutely did.
0:38
Excuse. Me if I look like I'm falling
0:40
asleep. Yeah, because I'm in a low key
0:42
pizza coma. A little too much pizza.
0:45
That's also NBA playoff season so.
0:47
Very important. I've got to cheer on your
0:49
basketball, man. Anytime Elizabeth got up to go
0:52
do something else, I would quickly change the channel real
0:54
quick. Yeah, I would come back to
0:57
basketball. Yeah, it's, it's a busy time for
0:59
me, but never too busy to talk about Star Wars.
1:03
So if you're new to the podcast, every year for I think since the
1:08
beginning, maybe with the exception of maybe the first
1:10
season. We started after May, we started
1:13
like end of June. Oh, that's true, right.
1:15
So every May that we've had this podcast, we've been doing a Star
1:19
Wars episode starting with A New Hope.
1:21
And you know, we've been doing this podcast now for a little
1:24
while now. So we finally made it see the
1:26
prequel, yeah, Which I've personally been very excited
1:30
about. Because.
1:31
I've always been a prequel person.
1:34
I kind of, I don't know. I don't know.
1:40
I feel like I grew up with them equally, except for the fact
1:45
that the prequels were constantly on TV.
1:48
Yeah, when we were growing up. Like if there was not something
1:51
to watch, that's true. There was a prequel on.
1:53
So I think I know them a little bit better and they're more of
1:58
like an influence because they look so good.
2:02
I've just always been kind of, I hate to say this, but I've
2:04
always been like a visual effects knob like you and I
2:07
grew. Up.
2:08
During the Lord of the Rings, The Mummy and the prequel Star
2:12
Wars, Jurassic Park, Jurassic Park.
2:14
So anytime like one of the older Star Wars from 70s eighties
2:19
would come on. I'd be like, like, yeah.
2:22
Yeah, this is better. This is cool but I won't see
2:24
Darf Maul which is dual wielded lightsaber.
2:27
Jumping all over the place. So that's why I've always like
2:32
had more of a attraction to them.
2:34
Obviously I love them all, but I'm very excited to talk about
2:37
The Phantom Menace. Because to me.
2:40
It's probably my favorite prequel.
2:42
You and I just talked to our pizza party.
2:44
You might not agree, but. Yeah, it's.
2:46
One of the better ones. It is one of the better ones,
2:49
not my favorite, but it's definitely.
2:52
I think you were saying like if on a on a day where you're sick,
2:56
it's one of the best ones. And honestly, yeah.
2:59
Well let's get into it. So I'll start off with the
3:01
summary 2. Jedi escape a hostile blockade
3:06
to find allies and come across a young boy who may bring balance
3:11
to the force with the long dormant Sith resurfaced to claim
3:16
their former glory. And that is Star Wars The
3:19
Phantom Menace episode one or four depends what book you look
3:24
at. Yeah, you know.
3:25
So we just whatever. Or three, yeah, according to the
3:30
machete cut. Oh, right.
3:32
Yeah. Which?
3:33
We just learned about, Yeah. Why do you take us behind the
3:37
costumes? I will do that with our favorite
3:42
Star Wars director, George Lucas and costume designer
3:48
extraordinaire, costume designer of the prequels, Tricia Bigger.
3:56
You will know her work from the BAFTA nominated The Fortunes and
4:00
Misfortunes of Mall Flanders, The Adventures of Young Indiana
4:06
Jones, which I highly recommend if you've never seen it.
4:09
Never seen it. Lot of fun, Beautiful Creatures.
4:14
Da Vinci's Demons, seasons one and two, for which she won the
4:18
BAFTA Wales Award, and she's the costume designer for Outlander
4:23
seasons 5:00 and 7:00. Which we've discussed.
4:27
Which we have discussed. Yeah, it's very much on her
4:31
list. And she was nominated for
4:34
another CGA award for the third prequel film, Revenge of the
4:41
Sith. Oh, nice, yeah.
4:44
And today, in her infinite wisdom, Trisha gave us, and I
4:51
don't have it with me. We're on YouTube now, Elizabeth.
4:55
You could have brought it this. I know and everyone could have
4:57
seen it. Trisha Vigor gave us the
5:03
fantastic book Dressing a Galaxy, The Costume of Costumes
5:07
of Star Wars, which all of our facts will be coming from today.
5:11
Spencer. Yeah, Elizabeth goes hard every
5:14
Star Wars episode. I do because I have both the
5:17
books, so how could I not? Yeah, what's the point?
5:23
And she said when she first went to Skywalker Ranch to meet with
5:28
George Lucas and the auto of 1996, which like 3 years before
5:33
this thing even came out, it's. Crazy.
5:36
She wasn't sure what to expect, but she said what I found was
5:41
incredible. And what Fisher found, Spencer,
5:45
was page after page after page after page of concept art.
5:49
Yeah. Like, we just own that
5:50
documentary. Yeah.
5:51
So whenever Elizabeth was here, I had to turn off basketball.
5:56
And we've been switching to this documentary called Light and
6:00
Magic, which is on Disney Plus. I believe the second season just
6:03
came out, and the first episode is really all about the journey
6:07
that led up to The Phantom Menace.
6:09
Yeah, it's very true. Like, they had these concept
6:12
artists like Doug Chang. Who's for?
6:14
Like a. Year working for like a year and
6:16
just floor to ceiling of concept art.
6:19
So they even said, you know, by the time came to costume time,
6:23
like they even knew what that looked like.
6:24
Everything. There was nothing in this film
6:27
that wasn't sketched out at some point.
6:29
They knew exactly what was happening, and when it came to
6:35
producing this new trilogy of films, there was a lot to figure
6:40
out. As Ian McKay said in Dressing a
6:43
Galaxy, He said when we started work on Episode 1, we didn't
6:51
know how to go back in time from the first trilogy.
6:55
Our initial thought was our past, going back to the
6:59
Victorian era where everything was handmade, the work of an
7:02
artist, and made expressly for the person who would wear it.
7:08
The further back you went, the more elaborate things got, which
7:12
would contrast nicely when we caught up with the very
7:17
machined, very uniformed look of Episode 5 through 6.
7:23
Which is so true. Yeah.
7:25
Like it's like they have their own little like industrial
7:27
revolution. Yeah, it's, it is interesting.
7:30
Just how so? It's it's Star Wars.
7:33
They think it's sci-fi, it's the future.
7:35
But so much of it was just, you know, it kind of acts like a
7:39
period piece in many ways. It does.
7:41
And Tricia addresses that in the book, saying George has long
7:46
asserted that the Star Wars movies are not futuristic, that
7:52
they are period pictures drawn from the past, a long time ago,
7:57
in a Galaxy far, far away. Yeah.
8:00
So she kind of tells us right at the.
8:02
Top right, and we've talked about this.
8:04
This is our four-star Wars episode, and every time it's
8:06
like hearing it for the first time.
8:10
Because it's like for us, this is just our like Star Wars is
8:14
responsible in a large part for what our concept of sci-fi and
8:18
futuristic society will be. But he's like, no, no, no, there
8:23
was something way better somewhere out there.
8:27
Who knows how long ago? Well, it's true.
8:29
Like when you think of, like, characters like Queen Amidala
8:32
and looking at her constants, how they're very big and ornate.
8:35
Yeah, but they also feel very influenced by, you know, like
8:38
historical dress and historical costume.
8:41
Really. All over the world that you know
8:43
in ways referential to the world that we know.
8:46
Absolutely, and that's exactly what they were doing and nothing
8:50
was off limit. For their research, they looked
8:53
into Japanese, Mongolian, Chinese, African, European,
8:57
Eskimo and Tibetan clothing. They went all over the world for
9:03
their inspiration, and aiding in the research for this was
9:08
concept researcher David Craig and Joe Donaldson, the Skywalker
9:16
Ranch library manager, and her staff.
9:20
I want that job. You want to know what Trisha
9:22
says about their library censor? Of course, she said, some of
9:30
their hard to find assets have been collected over decades.
9:35
George actually purchased the reference libraries of Paramount
9:40
Pictures and Universal Studios, thus creating a wealth of
9:45
information that helped inspire the design team and its
9:49
conceptualization of visual frameworks for each society.
9:54
We hoped that drawing on history and reinterpreting ideas from
9:59
the past cultures would allow the audience to recognize,
10:03
albeit subliminally, and identify with the otherwise
10:07
alien cultures. Wow, so I I love George Lucas.
10:13
He's just such an interesting guy and he always goes above and
10:18
beyond for everything he touches in purchasing entire reference
10:22
libraries from. Studios.
10:24
Hey, I mean I would. Do that.
10:26
That's one way to do it. Then we'll just buy the whole
10:29
damn library. He spared no expense for the
10:32
Star Wars films. Trish's team alone over the
10:37
prequels at any given point number between 80 and 120 people
10:42
between the UK and Australia. Her crew included couture level
10:48
cutters, sewers, dyers, printers, embroiderers, beaters,
10:52
milliners, leather workers, mold makers, sculptors and Jewelers.
10:57
Used a multitude of techniques to create articles of beauty or
11:02
ceremony or authority. Which I love that 'cause it's
11:07
like you just look at Padme and it's like, oh, it's a rich woman
11:11
dressed up, but she's dressed up to make a statement.
11:14
Yeah, I mean, it's just watching The Phantom Menace.
11:17
You just have to know that the crew on this thing was
11:21
ginormous. I mean, there's just no way the
11:23
costumes in this are, I mean, it's it's like sci-fi costume
11:28
design Bible. This, this is, I mean, it is
11:31
very period based, but it's just yeah, it's, it's the baseline.
11:37
It's a. It's definitely.
11:38
It created a baseline for extravagant sci-fi.
11:44
And like, I mean, when you think of Phantom Menace, you think of
11:47
Queen Ahmed Donald, like that red dress and that look like
11:50
everything, every costume in this film could have been used
11:54
as a marketing piece. Like they knew that it wasn't
11:57
just going to be seen in a movie.
11:59
Buzz gonna be used to just spread the word of Star Wars
12:01
throughout the world. Yeah, I don't know.
12:03
So they. And they were like, we're back.
12:04
Yeah, we're. Back, we're so back because I
12:07
feel like that kind of gets a little bit more quiet in a
12:09
second prequel. There's there's still some
12:11
amazing costumes on that, but they had to start The Phantom
12:14
Menace just on a, you know, whatever's higher they were up
12:20
here, you know. Absolutely, and Trisha's
12:24
background in theatre really gave her a good basis for this
12:28
film. She was very used to creating
12:31
Jacobean Elizabeth Victorian costumes and really did
12:36
understand how it influenced the actors performance and how
12:40
important it was for them to feel comfortable and be able to
12:44
move in these pieces and that really allowed her to understand
12:49
the scale and functionality the film needed.
12:53
She said George would always look at both photographs and
12:57
videos of these early shapes to study the lines of the outfits
13:01
in motion. He would also examine all
13:05
subsequent images from later fittings when the outfit was
13:09
nearly complete. So by the time we actually were
13:12
on set, there would be theoretically no surprises,
13:19
yeah. That's very clear from studying
13:23
George Lucas these past Four Seasons.
13:25
And I mean, you kind of have to, he, especially with this, he has
13:29
to know what those costumes are going to do, how big they like
13:32
it. It has to fit into his frame.
13:34
He has to know like, OK, how close can we get to this?
13:38
Like, how can the lighting work with this costume?
13:40
Like there was just a lot they had to do technically to put
13:45
these in the best light in the best setting possible.
13:51
Yeah, it's like that Francis Ford Coppola, the costumes are
13:54
to set thing because especially in this film because they take
13:57
up so much space and they're very commanding in terms of the
14:01
colors, in terms of the size and the scale.
14:04
Even when they're on Tatooine like those, the colors of the
14:07
costumes then like blend in with the world around them or you
14:10
know, so like and compared to like Queen Ahmedal and that is
14:13
like a set piece itself, so. Because even though they're
14:16
moving into this bigger more elaborate world, I feel like you
14:21
don't really get to see the the pre empire Senate world really
14:30
until the second film. Right, that's true.
14:32
I didn't think about Coruscant like that's its own world and
14:35
its own too. Yeah, well, well, as you go,
14:38
Alcatel, we have a lot to get into with The Phantom Menace.
14:42
So much we're going. To take a little break, we might
14:45
need one or two more slices of pizza and then we're going to
14:48
get into it. We have a great episode coming
14:50
up. Hi, I'm Dan, who does all the
14:57
magic behind the scenes. I wanted to say thank you.
15:00
And if you want to support the show even farther, go to
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tpublic.com/user slash The Art of Costume, where you can buy a
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15:15
Also, be sure to leave a like comment and subscribe.
15:18
And if you're an audio listener, leave us a five star review on
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Apple Podcast. Now back to the show.
15:24
All right, Elizabeth. Well, obviously there's a lot of
15:32
good costumes to talk about. And whenever I think of The
15:35
Phantom Menace, I think about one character in particular.
15:39
The Phantom Menace. Oh yeah, we're talking about
15:43
Darth Maul. I mean, can you think of a more
15:46
cool Star Wars character? Honestly?
15:49
I mean, except maybe Queen Amandala, but.
15:53
A more cool villain? Not really.
15:57
I mean, it's him and it's Darth Vader and.
16:00
Yeah, and there I say I think Darth Maul could defeat Darth
16:04
Vader. I I wouldn't put it past him.
16:07
At least 80s Darth Vader. Yeah, yeah, maybe not the hating
16:12
Christiansen Darth Vader, but anyways, let's get to Darth
16:15
Maul. Let's get into Darth Maul
16:17
because I loved getting this book because you get to see up
16:21
close his costumes, which you don't really get to do in the
16:24
film because he's always doing something like crazy.
16:28
He can't sit still. No, he can't sit still.
16:30
I think like this image in the middle is the only time during
16:34
the films he's still. But even then in the movie it's
16:38
like it's a very quick scene. And he has a black layered
16:45
kimono style garment under his robes with varying lengths of
16:50
splits and hanging skirts which allow a lot of movement during
16:56
his very complex fight scenes. She says his cloak is inspired
17:04
by a photograph of a Tibetan llama taken to the 1940s and was
17:11
hand dyed of coarsely woven silk and linen fabric.
17:16
It's many shoulder to ankle length circular pieces were sun
17:24
ray pleaded. Oh my gosh.
17:25
Solo work. Creating a narrow silhouette
17:29
when motionless, but in combat swirling out into fully circular
17:36
shapes? Wow, Come on.
17:38
Yeah. Yeah, he it's, it's true.
17:41
There's so much movement happening and that kind of adds
17:43
like the ferocity of Darfur. Oh yeah.
17:45
Because when every time, Sam, he moves like a ghost.
17:49
Yeah, a phantom there to say, because there's just so much
17:51
drape to him. So those pleats, you wouldn't
17:53
think. When I think of villains, I
17:55
don't think of pleats. But this one, that's really
17:58
cool. It works.
17:59
Oof. I might have a new one.
18:01
Casa rule of them all. Really.
18:02
I don't know, it's pretty good. I never, I never thought the
18:07
fact that he literally looks like a ghost just wearing all
18:10
black which you know. Yeah, And literally one of my
18:13
favorite parts of this because I like, it's so cool watching his,
18:16
like his robes go all over the place.
18:19
In the book, she makes them that way so that it's like a fabric
18:26
shuriken cutting through air. That's good.
18:31
Right. That's good, Trisha, like.
18:36
Like that's all you need to say about this whole film.
18:38
I. Think that's a good one, I gotta
18:40
say. But we have our bestie, Anakin
18:44
Skywalker. Little Annie.
18:47
Annie man, I want to be this kid so bad.
18:51
Growing up I used to go to Chuck E Cheese and they just came out
18:55
with the pod, right? Pod racer game used to, and then
18:59
you'd have like the lower emotes and I just wish I was Anakin
19:02
Skywalker. Yeah, so Annie is a slave in
19:08
this one. Yeah, poor Annie.
19:10
And he just wants to make a better life for himself and his
19:15
mom. Like I gotta say, little Annie
19:17
has such a good heart. He does like he really does.
19:22
We compared to a whole podcast about all the signs of little
19:25
Annie becoming, you know, But yeah, at first he's a sweet kid,
19:29
which is how they always start, just.
19:31
Saying it's like when he doesn't have that many options open to
19:35
him, he's taken advantage of what he can for him and his mom.
19:38
Yeah. And they have him really and
19:41
what I kind of like think of as like the standard Tatooine like
19:49
garb, which is natural colors, coarsely woven silk, linen,
19:55
hemp, NYX fabrics with ragged leg wraps, leather belt, just
20:02
very like oh. Luke episode one.
20:08
Yeah, Tatooine on the farm. Just like one step up from like
20:11
a potato sack. Yes, yeah, and his little like
20:18
bead necklace and and what is really cool about his look on
20:24
Tatooine though, is the pot racing look and helmet cuz of
20:29
that, it just like brings you back again to Episode 3 and Luke
20:36
being a pilot. It's got the orange, it's got
20:39
like the same general shape. Yeah, and I just always
20:43
remember, like, being so fascinated by what his helmet
20:46
looked like with the circular. Goggles.
20:48
Too. That was such a cool look
20:50
because, you know, it's he's very like deconstructed.
20:52
Everything he's doing is like very like, pieced together with
20:55
what they could afford, which is nothing.
20:57
Or what he could like, just get for free?
21:00
Yeah, so that's like such like a, you know, seared into my
21:03
brain pictures like him and his pod racing outfit.
21:06
I had so many Star Wars video games.
21:09
I mean, I had a lot. I had a pod Racing 1.
21:12
I had, you know, of course, Star Wars Battlefronts.
21:15
I had the Phantom Menace game on PS1.
21:18
Yeah. I only ever played the Old
21:21
Republic. Yeah, excellent.
21:26
That's all good stuff. But I mean, you cannot talk
21:29
about The Phantom Menace without talking about Queen Amidala I.
21:33
Mean. I would say that you can make
21:35
costume exhibitions about her costumes, but they there
21:38
literally have been costume exhibitions about her costumes.
21:44
And she is just such a standout in this film, Ian McKay says
21:48
about Queen Amidala. We were told that Queen Amidala
21:52
was to be in disguise, that she could sneak out the back of her
21:58
costumes and you wouldn't know she was gone, which is why she's
22:03
wearing clothing up to her chin and white face paint like you
22:09
find on a geisha. Yeah, I mean, that's like one of
22:15
the coolest parts. And it isn't.
22:17
It wasn't tall. It's like even older that I
22:19
realized that most of the scenes it's not actually Natalie
22:22
Portman as Queen Amidala. Like, it took me a long time,
22:27
too. And there's that scene where
22:28
Anakin, you know, finally realizes.
22:31
And I still was like, I don't get it.
22:33
Like I don't. That's.
22:35
Definitely Natalie Partman. Until I was like older I was
22:37
like, oh, I get it. But when I was a kid, I was
22:39
like, wow. No, her and Keira Knightley in
22:42
that makeup look exactly the same.
22:43
The same person, exactly the same.
22:45
They disguised their voice, so the whole time I was scratching
22:49
my head. I would have been one of the
22:50
Trade Federation guys. That would have been like, oh,
22:52
you got me. Yeah, we're done.
22:57
Starting out with her actual final look because it's just
23:01
like it is Queen Amidala as the queen in the makeup, in
23:05
everything. But I like it because it's like
23:09
it's very pared down compared to like what everything she and her
23:16
double S are wearing. Because in this scene, she
23:19
doesn't have to hide as much. She is the queen.
23:22
Like everything's good again. And she is like, yes, let's
23:27
celebrate. Well, I love that look because
23:30
we were talking about like the period influences.
23:32
When I see this costume, I think of Queen Elizabeth.
23:35
Absolutely. Yeah, with the round circular
23:38
piece behind her. I just, I like that.
23:41
To me, I like that. Just looks like.
23:43
Elizabeth deconstructed rough. Yeah, it's, it's beautiful.
23:47
And she's just like, yes, here I am.
23:50
But the costume, I think that like actually shocked the world
23:55
where everyone was like Star Wars is so back was seeing Queen
24:00
Armadale and that red look that had the glowing orbs and the
24:05
hair and the everything, everything.
24:10
Has everything. This costume is actually an
24:13
insane and every time I look at it I feel like I'm like I see
24:17
something different. It's absolutely insane, and I'm
24:21
just gonna quote Tricia, all right on this one, she said.
24:27
Perhaps one of the most complex costumes is the Queen Queen's
24:32
throne room gown, which is illuminated by a series of
24:37
lights around the hem. Work on the dress, which took
24:40
almost 8 weeks to complete, began with the manufacturing of
24:46
an undergarment that resembled an upside down ice cream cone.
24:54
The shape of this undergarment was constructed using many
24:58
narrow panels of canvas that were reinforced with rings of
25:03
crinoline steel around the hem to keep the shape rigid and
25:10
support the weight of the fabric.
25:12
Poor Natalie Portman allowing it to skim the floor, creating a
25:19
floating gliding effect. I considered velvet, but with
25:24
some of the sections being cut on the cross, the reversal of
25:30
the velvet pile would have been extremely obvious and ugly under
25:36
film lighting. I chose instead of fine silk
25:40
satin cord which was mounted on a more densely woven silk prior
25:47
to construction, and each panel was self piped.
25:53
The collar hanging center front piece and sleeves were edged and
25:58
lined in faux fur and decorated with gold metallic embroidery.
26:04
The lights were in a vacuum formed perspex color washed with
26:11
French enamel varnish. In keeping with the cultural and
26:17
historical basis of many of the costumes, the dress was
26:21
influenced by the Chinese imperial courts.
26:25
That is insane. Yeah, I just.
26:30
And I think this is the costume with the most explanation for it
26:33
in the whole book. Yeah, because every time anyone
26:35
sees this costume, they're like, what?
26:37
Yeah, what the it's this. Yeah.
26:40
Like it's insane. No one knows.
26:42
I don't. I still, I would love to see
26:45
this costume in person. You know, this is one of those
26:47
costumes that would like stop me in my tracks.
26:49
I just want to look at every square inch of it.
26:52
So I would be Kirsten that we're it must be at like Skywalker
26:56
Ranch or something. But I would be very curious to
26:58
see this in person one day. I'm sure if there is a vault
27:01
somewhere with all of her costumes.
27:03
In it, yeah. So there's no way they just
27:07
shoved those away, especially by the end of it.
27:09
Yeah. Because I feel like a lot of
27:11
stuff from these films survived because they already knew how
27:14
important. Yeah, I mean, the originals had
27:17
been they. Did a whole costume exhibition
27:19
that fit them back in the day that had all three films.
27:22
So they're somewhere. There's some other great
27:25
costumes too that aren't as big and grand, but subtly still so
27:29
extravagant. And I think of the ombre velvet
27:32
gowns that again, Natalie Portman wears.
27:35
Yes, she wear. Can you imagine being Natalie
27:38
Portman on this film? No, no.
27:41
And I did watch a little clip of an interview with Tricia Baker,
27:50
and all she did was praise Natalie Portman.
27:53
She was like, she never once asked to, like, hurry up.
27:57
She never once complained. She was like, she just, you
28:00
know, always said yes to coming in for fit.
28:04
Like, she dedicated herself to this.
28:06
And she was like, a lot of actresses wouldn't have done
28:09
that. I'm sure the fittings were very
28:12
long. Tell us about this this velvet
28:15
look so I. Absolutely love this look.
28:19
Even as a kid this was probably like my first favorite look from
28:23
it. The original 1 costume ruled
28:25
them. Off yes, if they had come out
28:30
with this as a Halloween costume, probably would have
28:32
worn it as a child. I see that.
28:35
And it's just so gorgeous. But I do love how like from the
28:39
outside, it's like a little dumpy looking because like it's
28:43
very formless, but that's because you're supposed to be
28:48
able to hide the queen. And it's this beautiful yellow
28:54
to orange hombre velvet, which like, let's just take a moment
28:59
to appreciate that. And it's their travel gown.
29:04
This is, you know, just casual comfy wear.
29:07
And it took a considerable amount of time to complete.
29:12
Just said the dresses were originally formed in a white
29:16
silk and visco coast velvet, fitted several times on each
29:23
actress and assembled to an almost finished stage before
29:28
being completely taken to pieces to be ombre died to ensure that
29:38
when the attendants stood together, the depths and levels
29:44
of colors aligned. The red sashes, sleeves and
29:50
inner hoods are in a bias cut silk crepe trimmed with antique
29:57
percaine lace motifs died to match.
30:03
The hoodies are used to hide the faces of the handmaids and
30:07
enable Padme to travel in disguise as one of the group.
30:11
Can you imagine being like, OK, it's done now take it apart.
30:15
I heard the pain in your voice. Yeah, just now.
30:18
I've I have a degree in fashion I was trained to sell and I hate
30:24
sewing. You do.
30:25
Nothing would make me more upset than being told to take it
30:28
apart. And you're like, Oh my gosh,
30:30
this is perfect. OK, Dye team, can you
30:32
deconstruct? This.
30:34
Here you go. I'm done.
30:36
I'm not making another if you take this apart.
30:38
I feel like you see the dye team out of the corner behind be
30:42
like. I think I need to clock out
30:43
early today. Yeah, don't like you're good
30:46
with it. OK, bye.
30:47
I'm. Good.
30:48
Yeah, I'll be on the Dye team from that point forward, but
30:51
there's also so many other characters in The Phantom
30:54
Menace. So many and like, I'm sorry
30:56
everyone, like we can't get to half of the people I wish we
31:00
could. We'll be here all day.
31:02
We would be here all day, but one of my favorite characters in
31:07
The Phantom Menace is Captain Hanka and he is one of the
31:12
Imperial Royal Guards of Naboo and he looks incredible.
31:17
He's got the blue faux suede fabric coat which just looks so
31:23
cool and the red stripes around the hem actually indicate his
31:28
rank which I'm like never would have guessed.
31:31
That and beautiful burgundy leather jerkin and his cap
31:39
Insignia is also worn by all Naboo military forces, either on
31:44
a belt buckle or a hat. Yeah, I gotta admit, if I lived
31:48
in Abu, which I definitely would, this would be my planet.
31:51
You will not catch me on dusty tattooing or even Coruscant.
31:55
No, too, too much we. Need more nature than that.
31:58
I would be on Abu and I would not mind being 20 stars.
32:01
Lake Country. Yeah, with one of those hats.
32:03
Yeah. Oh easy, let's.
32:06
Go. They get the cool outfits,
32:09
they're a little cool hat, so, but yeah.
32:12
Also shout out to Padme's handmade security guard outfit
32:18
because they they have a security guard outfit too of
32:20
course because they need something for every.
32:23
Occasion everyone's dormalaje. Literally.
32:26
Yeah, literally. Man, but we gotta talk about
32:31
some Jedi too. Yes, we get this meat Qui Gon
32:35
Jin and one Obi Wan Kenobi. You're a big Liam Neeson fan.
32:39
I am a big Liam Neeson fan and it started here.
32:45
It's all the Phantom Menace's fault.
32:48
If Liam Neeson's in it, I will watch it.
32:50
Yeah, it is funny, too, because thinking about Liam Neeson doing
32:54
this now feels insane. Yeah.
32:56
But back then, I was like, Quagan Jin's the coolest.
32:59
Yeah. You know, because like this was
33:00
like pretty much his breakout role, at least here in the
33:03
States. That's it, I think.
33:05
So I don't think he was super. He's just always been there for
33:10
me because. We were so young when this film
33:13
came. So I just assume he's like 300
33:15
years old and he's been in like every movie ever so.
33:18
Well I think they made him look older than he actually is in
33:20
this. That is true.
33:22
But he's got that Jedi look that we know from old Ben.
33:28
Yeah, in the original trilogies, she says Qui Gon Jin's Jedi
33:33
outfit is a jersey silk bright undershirt and silk Knoll
33:39
overshirt with traditional double hanging tabs held by a
33:45
matching cumper bun under the leather Jedi belt and pouches.
33:52
Silk linen mix course weave poncho with printed border for
33:58
his disguise. Which?
34:02
Are places the normal dark brown wool crepe robe?
34:06
I love the poncho. I would.
34:09
There's something so kind of like.
34:12
Cozy. Qui Gon Jin just looks like a
34:14
diva with that poncho that doing the way he kind of whips it
34:18
around. He has this like little bitchy
34:20
little like not phone but the thing he like calls Obi Wan with
34:25
his like with his ponytail and his poncho.
34:29
Like he's like, I've got to get off this planet and.
34:32
Me at like 10 years old was like such swag.
34:36
Literally he's so mean to everyone and they all deserve
34:42
it. And you're like, yes, Kwai Gon
34:44
Jin. Kwai Gon Jin just had style he
34:46
did, but also like at the same time we see Obi Wan and he's
34:49
kind of like defining like that Padawan look, which, yeah, I
34:53
mean, it's so ingrained in our heads, but actually I don't
34:56
think it existed at this point because I.
34:58
Don't know. So Luke doesn't really take on
35:00
like a Padawan look. Because by the time of the of
35:05
episodes three through 6, the Jedi Order is decimated.
35:10
Yeah, that's true. It's just disparate Jedis who
35:15
still happen to be alive. They're all elderly and they
35:19
really can't congregate or Darth Vader is going to come murder on
35:23
them. Oh man, and I don't I don't
35:27
think Yoda was concerned with Lukes hairstyle no while
35:31
teaching him I. Don't think so.
35:32
He didn't get that braid. What?
35:34
I bet you Luke was pretty pissed when he found out though.
35:37
He was like, I bet he was pretty relieved.
35:41
Well, that's it for our facts, but we're actually not done yet
35:46
because we feel like The Phantom Menace is such a fun film that
35:49
deserves its own celebration. We.
35:51
Kind of want to keep the pizza party going.
35:53
Yeah, so we're gonna have some friends over to talk about The
35:56
Phantom Menace. Join us in studio after this
35:59
break. We're going to have a quite a
36:01
cast of characters. Costume designer Laura Brody's
36:04
going to join us. Yeah.
36:06
Costume designer Jennifer May Nichols going to be joining us.
36:09
And actor slash writer slash producer John Paul Nichols going
36:14
to join us. Or we're going to just talk
36:16
about the prequels and what we loved about them.
36:18
What maybe we didn't love the about them.
36:20
And of course, play our fair games, one cost for them all and
36:23
do a stitch rating. So I'm excited.
36:25
Let's yeah, let's pop some bottles and.
36:28
Everyone. Reeling.
36:29
More pizza. Get ready to party.
36:37
I am so excited for this next segment.
36:40
We are finally talking about the prequels.
36:42
So Elizabeth and I decided we need to have a little party to
36:45
celebrate. I think one of the better Star
36:47
Wars films, but we'll get into it.
36:49
Let's introduce our party guest first.
36:52
You will all know her for her work on various costume teams
36:55
from Westworld, Perry Mason, Obi Wan Kenobi, interview at the
36:59
Vampire and Skeleton Crew. I did not know that.
37:02
Please welcome costume designer Laura Brody.
37:04
Hey, Laura, how are? You thanks for having me,
37:08
Spencer. How are you?
37:09
I'm so good. I'm excited that you're here.
37:11
That's what I'm excited about. And next, returning to the
37:15
podcast, you know her for her work on CW Networks, Gotham
37:19
Nights, Legacies, Containment, Netflix is Cameron with Bert
37:23
Kreischer, Taylor Thompson, Look at you and Crow Life Crisis, as
37:27
well as shows on sci-fi, Hulu, Nickelodeon, TLC, History
37:31
Channel, so on and so forth. Please welcome back my dear
37:33
friend, costume designer Jennifer May Nichol.
37:36
Hey, Jen. You're welcome.
37:40
And at last, but certainly, certainly not least, he is a
37:44
internationally award-winning writer, actor and filmmaker.
37:48
Yeah, most recently, you'll recognize his work as writer and
37:51
Co executive producer for the series The Arc on sci-fi and
37:55
streaming on Peacock. Please welcome John Paul Nickel.
37:58
Hey, JP. Hey.
38:00
Thank you so much for having me. Of course.
38:02
I'm so glad the three of you are here.
38:04
We were talking about it just at Jen's house where, you know, I
38:06
was talking to Laura about it and I was talking to Jen about
38:09
then I was talking to JP about it and I kind of went back to
38:13
Elizabeth and I was like, there's a lot of prequel fans.
38:16
I don't really know what to do, so we just invite all of you.
38:18
On why not? You know, it worked out that
38:20
way. So let's talk about The Phantom
38:23
Menace, and I'm going to start a few.
38:25
Laura, I'm a big fan of The Phantom Menace.
38:28
To me, like, you know, we kind of grew up at the time when a
38:32
Phantom Menace came out, so of course we saw the original
38:36
films. But I mean, I remember being a
38:38
kid and going to Blockbuster and renting The Phantom Menace and
38:41
the Chuck E Cheese writer get to do the pod racing.
38:44
Like Phantom Menace was my thing.
38:47
Core memory movie. For sure.
38:49
What was your relationship with The Phantom Menace?
38:52
What were your like first impressions of the film when you
38:54
saw it for the first time? Well, I saw it in the theater at
38:58
the Sony Metreon. I don't know if you've ever been
39:01
at this theater, but it was just brand new, like super high tech.
39:05
Everything was all like digital futuristic.
39:08
It was 1999, it's about to be Y2K.
39:11
Everything was like, it was like the perfect place to go see it.
39:15
It felt like there might have been like a clone in the back.
39:18
There was like a little like robot coffee maker.
39:20
It was so cool and I I was so excited about The Phantom
39:27
Menace. I think everyone who asked me on
39:29
a date and like that like 2 month period in 1999, I was like
39:34
no I want to go see The Phantom Menace again.
39:38
That's the perfect. So my, again, I was about to
39:43
graduate from high school at the time and it was one of those
39:47
like build UPS of the year. And I remember going to see it,
39:53
it was at the Robinson Town Center movie theater that in
39:58
Pittsburgh that is now a car dealership, sadly.
40:05
But. But I remember going with a
40:11
bunch of my friends and also family.
40:13
I feel like I saw it at least five times in the theater here
40:19
and countless times since, but it was one of those turning
40:23
points in life with especially the costumes were just awe
40:28
inspiring and so exciting to see.
40:32
Yeah, Tricia, Tricia Biggers, costumes really are kind of like
40:36
this cultural touch point too that I think about that.
40:38
I feel like it's a little bit underrated and that
40:40
conversations we have about costumes.
40:42
Yeah. Absolutely, JPI feel like you
40:45
dressed up when you saw The Phantom Menace.
40:48
You definitely had a robe. I I don't like to cover the
40:51
money in general, so I'm careful when I dress up.
40:55
I was dressed up in my work uniform.
40:57
So dear editor Daniel will have fun making the story short.
41:02
I worked in movie theatre at the time from a movie theatres,
41:05
which is now a gym, and they were a local chain of movie
41:10
theatres. But this movie theatre was part
41:12
of a chain, a local chain. And two weeks before the movie
41:15
came out, there was a press screening.
41:16
And I was at one of our sister theatres seeing some other
41:19
movie. And I went to the bathroom and I
41:21
came back and I passed a theatre and I realized he was playing
41:23
Phantom Menace. I popped my head in two weeks
41:26
before anybody could see it at the press screening and I walked
41:29
in during Duel of the Fates and I thought, Oh my God, this is
41:34
going to be the best movie ever. And then leading up to the
41:39
movie, because I was a movie theater, was getting all my
41:41
friends tickets for the Thursday night midnight showing.
41:44
So everyone was coming at midnight.
41:45
But my boss made me work that night.
41:47
And I was so angry at him because we had a whole 2 prints
41:51
of the movie for our six screens.
41:53
And at 9:00 PM or actually 73730, my boss opened up
41:58
screening for all the employees who weren't working that night.
42:01
And my boss knew I was such a Star Wars fan.
42:03
I was so angry. And he said, JP, don't worry.
42:06
What I want you to do is after the 7:30 screening starts, I
42:10
want you to go up and thread up the other print we have of the
42:14
movie and started at 8:00 PM. And I want you to watch it to
42:17
make sure I put it together correctly.
42:19
There are no scratches. There's nothing wrong with the
42:21
film. So the night before it came out,
42:23
I then got to, I got paid to watch a private screening of the
42:27
Phantom minutes and then at 11:30 clocked out and went to
42:31
see the midnight screening with all my friends.
42:33
So yeah, so it was, it's it's imprinted on my mind is such an
42:39
amazing, wonderful experience to get paid to see it before it
42:43
comes out. I feel like the audience
42:45
reaction to The Phantom Menace has always been very, I don't
42:48
know, I guess like over the years I've used to people kind
42:51
of shitting on it a lot, honestly.
42:54
And I've just never understood that.
42:56
But then I guess different generations can react to
42:58
different iterations of Star Wars differently.
43:00
So, I mean, Laura, has your opinion about The Phantom Menace
43:04
and the prequels changed over the years?
43:06
Were you always a big fan or? And like, what is that about?
43:09
Why? Why do we love it so much?
43:11
Well, I started out loving it and then maybe like 10 years
43:16
later, I didn't like it anymore. Maybe 5 to 10 years later after
43:23
everyone got offended by Jar Jar.
43:26
And like the pod racing part is boring.
43:29
I mean, it's supposed to be exciting, but it's not that
43:31
exciting to me. And then I watched again, like
43:35
when I knew that I was not hired on Obi Wan, but before I went
43:39
in, like I should watch all the prequels again just to like get
43:43
like get in the get in the mood. And I fell in love with it
43:47
again. I thought it was so beautiful,
43:49
like the production design, the costumes, the music, the
43:54
performances was fantastic. Yes, it's actually very much
43:59
like Laura's. I love them all when they came
44:02
out. And then it was about that, like
44:05
5 to 10 years later where everyone hated on it so much.
44:09
So I just got quiet and it's like, OK, maybe it was broad,
44:14
but I thought it was really awesome so it could be quiet.
44:18
I think people latched on to what the movie wasn't as opposed
44:23
to what it was. I think people really wanted
44:27
just another Star Wars movie that that was a rehash of what
44:30
we've seen before, which is what you could call the new Disney
44:34
trilogy is almost that experiment.
44:37
It's almost the reaction to, oh, we did some, they did something
44:39
so different in the prequels that was that was culturally
44:44
pooed. Now we're just going to do a
44:47
rehash of what we'd seen before and see how that works.
44:49
And probably the truth of the best way to do it is somewhere
44:51
in the middle. But once I started to see that
44:55
movie for what it was and judge it on its own merits in terms of
45:01
do do you want to see Jedi fighting in their prime?
45:06
Yes. Do you want to see the
45:09
manipulative works of the Sith? Yes.
45:13
Do you want to expand this world and go.
45:16
And while practical locations are always great, but do you
45:20
want to go out of the three color palettes of brown, white,
45:25
and green and see the, dare I say, strange new worlds and
45:30
civilizations? Yes, that's what they do.
45:32
Do you want to know the secrets behind the Force?
45:35
Yes. Maybe not, but, but we tried.
45:39
And it's, it's, there's a, there's a bunch of swings and A
45:43
and a bunch of misses. And I think everybody focuses on
45:45
the misses instead of, instead of the swings.
45:48
And I just want to piggyback on what Jenny said is I think we're
45:52
big proponents of the machete cut, which is you.
45:56
And I don't know why it's called this, but you start, you watch
45:58
Episode 4 and New Hope, you watch Empire Strikes Back.
46:02
And then it's, oh, Luthanger, Oh my God, that Darth Vader's
46:05
father. How did that happen?
46:06
Then you go back and watch the the prequel trilogy, all three
46:11
of those, and then you end on Return of the Jedi, which which,
46:14
which wraps it all up, which is a great way to do that.
46:19
Yeah, Elizabeth, did you always feel the same way about The
46:21
Phantom Menace? So it's changed a lot over the
46:25
years. I had a very vocal uncle who did
46:28
not like. Right.
46:30
Yeah, I think we all did. The prequel, I wasn't happy so
46:36
like as a young child that like very much influenced, but he it
46:42
was that he just wanted a rehash of the originals that like him
46:45
and my dad had grown up with and you know, over the years.
46:49
I'm like, is this the best movie ever made?
46:53
Absolutely not. But it's so much fun and I just
46:56
love a fun movie. I think the standout moment,
47:01
especially when I was a kid and I just, it's just lives in my
47:05
mind always is 1. Padme reveals herself when
47:09
they're trying to convince the Gungans.
47:12
Like her just coming out and being like, OK, OK, like let's
47:15
simplify this. I'm the Queen, let's please help
47:17
us. It was until I was an adult when
47:20
I finally, like, sat down and say, OK, wait, what happened
47:22
here? And then you start looking at
47:23
the IMDb and you're like Keira Knightley, like all these, like,
47:28
famous actresses. Now you're like, who did they
47:29
play? And you're like, oh, they played
47:31
the queen. Yeah.
47:35
That's what a nerd I am. I know, Kara Knight.
47:39
I'd never heard that name before.
47:43
Laura, I want to ask you before we move on, you got to work on
47:46
Obi Wan and Skeleton Crew. I just without gaining into the
47:50
weeds of it, I mean, what was that experience like for you?
47:54
It was, it was incredibly special.
47:56
It was really, it was really touching like as a fan to get to
48:02
go into that universe and to have the experience of having to
48:07
be so secretive about it and shooting it during COVID and not
48:12
being able to tell anybody what you were doing and not being
48:15
able to show anything. But when you actually got there,
48:18
it was like, it wasn't even like going to Disney.
48:21
It was like going to another planet or like going into your
48:25
like some kind of like fantasy world.
48:27
It was, it was amazing. It was very, very.
48:30
Special so let's shift gears a little bit.
48:32
So every episode we like to play some of our favorite games and
48:35
we start with some very first official business by giving each
48:39
of the films you watch a stitch rating because you know, we felt
48:42
like we're just being a little too non judgmental, so we had to
48:45
give some opinions somewhere. So who wants to go first?
48:50
I don't know that's kind of a hard one.
48:52
I guess I'll go first because I'm talking to me.
48:55
I think The Phantom Menace is a solid 4 out of five stitches.
48:59
It's, you know, near perfect. Obviously, like we talked about,
49:02
it has its has its moments are interesting.
49:05
Yeah, I, I have to agree. I'm a solid 4 as well because
49:10
like it's beautiful. All the details are there.
49:13
You look a little closely and you're like, I, I wish there
49:17
were some more like embellishment on the top, but
49:21
you know, other than that, solid piece of work.
49:25
Yeah, Laura, do you want to go next?
49:28
I would also give it a four. I think the the visuals, the
49:34
costumes are like a 10 out of five, production design, hair
49:40
and makeup, music performance. But there's just something like,
49:45
like I said, like Jar Jar, the Gungans, that really long pod
49:50
racing sequence. It didn't really.
49:53
You know, last I give it a four and 1/4 stitch.
49:58
There you go. That works.
50:02
There's really no rules on this podcast.
50:04
No, there's not. The quarter stitches, the that
50:08
little extra for the costume and one of the things I appreciate
50:14
the most about the movie, especially all of the prequels,
50:19
is in going back and watching it so many times.
50:23
Yes, I know it like the back of my hand, but then at the same
50:26
time, when I'm actively watching it, I always notice something
50:29
new and appreciate something that I haven't seen before
50:34
there. It's definitely a fun almost
50:37
like a puzzle to watch like and noticing something different
50:40
every single time. So.
50:42
Yeah. On my I'm going to be a
50:44
dissenting opinion going going to what I was saying about
50:48
judging the movie for what it is and on its own terms and judging
50:51
it in the Star Wars Canon. I got to knock it down point.
50:55
I got to give it. I got to give it three stitches
50:58
because I, I just think there are, it's ground breaking as
51:02
that movie was the Attack of the Clones is a better movie and
51:06
Revenge of the Sith is a better movie than both of those
51:09
combined. I, I will go toe to toe on
51:12
anybody with anybody that Revenge of the Sith is a top
51:16
tier Star Wars movie. And I know we're not here to
51:20
talk about that today, but I think I think Sith, the Revenge
51:24
of the Sith is, is five stitches easily.
51:27
And so given that, I think I have to respectfully give
51:31
Phantom Menace 3, despite its contributions to the, to the
51:34
Star Wars of the Year. Well, that leads us to our
51:38
favorite game, then. Are you guys all ready to play
51:41
one costume rule them all? Yeah.
51:45
The one costume to rule them all.
51:52
Well, I will go first since you all see it on screen.
51:55
MY1 costume ruled them all is actually, it's, I realized today
51:59
it's not actually Queen Amidala, but it is supposed to be Queen
52:03
Amidala and her costume that she wears when she gets captured
52:06
because it's just so dramatic. She's just very much so that
52:12
Queen Amidala wears her story on her sleeves and she's just in a
52:17
bad mood, so she puts on the most gothy, melancholy, somber
52:21
costume to be walked to her. Well, she thinks she's going to
52:24
like a prison cell, and that is what she chose to be like
52:28
processed into her cell. So I just can't get over that
52:32
costume. Elizabeth, what's yours?
52:35
MY1 costume to rule them all is definitely her red like queenly
52:40
ensemble that was like just all over the place when I was a kid.
52:46
I dressed up for it at in the that Halloween.
52:49
My mom got me the costume and it's just like, that's one of
52:53
those like childhood things I will never forget.
52:56
Yeah, I mean, how could you? I got to say mine is the same as
53:00
your Spencer. I knew it.
53:02
That black gal with that like, huge feather headdress, it's
53:07
just magnificent. I am actually with Elizabeth on
53:12
Queen Amidala's Senate gown. It just, well, again, I was
53:18
like, oh, funny, I had to put the headphones on because it but
53:23
it's good for me seeing that that it was I've never seen
53:30
anything like that before. You know, I just never seen
53:34
anything with orbs on it and in that spectacular of a way and it
53:40
just kind of gobs back me. And JP, this is the moment
53:44
you've been looking forward to all week.
53:46
I know what I you know, I was actually going to go with that
53:49
red dress too, but I picked a backup.
53:51
I picked. I picked my boy Palpatines blue
53:58
outfit. Remember when he comes back.
54:01
When he comes back and he's like, you would never believe
54:05
the Senate. Oh, dear Church.
54:07
He's like temporarily. It's a good thing.
54:12
I should have hit me. And it's this royal blue.
54:16
It's so above his station. Even though Naboo is clearly a
54:20
wealthy planet. When you feel that the Senate is
54:24
so huge and you're seeing people from all walks of life.
54:26
And here's the senator from what?
54:28
Even though it's a wealthy planet, a backwater planet, it's
54:31
so big and so ornate. And he's so if you look at it,
54:35
it's puffed up and padded to make him seem bigger and more
54:39
important than he is. And which, And that was also a
54:42
nice, I don't think anybody was supposed to be surprised that he
54:45
was sedious. But from that drapey robe, which
54:48
makes him so thin and hunched, and here he is.
54:51
I'm a big boy leading the Senate, so I, I, I love that.
54:54
And I, and I'm a sucker for for, for the Blues and colors, yeah.
55:00
We've actually, I don't know if you remember how we've talked
55:02
about this costume before and how I was like, yeah, he's
55:06
peacocking. Yeah, yeah.
55:09
Which I didn't realize back in the day, but now every time
55:12
watching like this guy, just, you know, he shows up, his hair
55:14
is perfect, his makeup's done, his robe are all pressed.
55:17
And I believe the day I've had, you know, it's just like so
55:22
much, so much great storytelling in that moment so bad.
55:26
This has been so fun. Thank you to all three of you,
55:29
Laura, Jennifer, JP for joining us.
55:32
I I wish we could have you on for every episode.
55:34
Just a little talk back after our episode.
55:37
This has been fun and I feel like I'm gonna I'm probably
55:40
going to do this machete cut that J PS talking.
55:42
About. That's fun.
55:44
Thank you, Laura, JP and Jen, and this has been so much fun
55:47
and I hope everyone will come back and join us for our next
55:51
episode. If our guests don't mind if we
55:54
close out the show, tell us what your one costume rule of them
55:57
all is as well. e-mail us at theartofcostume@gmail.com.
56:01
Follow us on Instagram at the Art of Costume Pod TikTok at the
56:04
Art of Costume, head to our merch store at the Art of
56:07
costume.com/pod store. We have with those you could get
56:10
a hoodie just like the one that Jen made me, though they can't
56:13
get this exact one. This is limited edition, so you
56:15
could get one that looks just like it.
56:18
And I'm happy to say that our next episode Elizabeth is going
56:22
to be all about Andor season 2, perhaps with a special guest,
56:26
but we'll we'll wait and see. So very excited.
56:30
What's it's May so happy made a fourth and it was let's get to
56:34
the Star Wars month. I'm very excited.
56:36
Thank you all so much for joining us.
56:37
Thank. You.
56:38
Thank you.