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What's Up with WhatsApp and Privacy? · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I never told you, prolected by
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Heart Radio, and today we are thrilled once again to
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: be joined by the charming, the clever Bridget Todd. Welcome Bridget.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me every time I come.
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: I'm always so stoked with whatever superlative you give me
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: in the intro.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: They get better every time.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm trying not to in my mind cheat
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: and use at thesaurus, but who knows, I might have
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: to break it out one day.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: One day. We're not there yet, not yet, but.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, Bridget, We're always so happy to have you.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: How have you been?
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Sweaty as hell?
• 0:54
  Speaker 5: Uh?
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: Big? I don't know if it hit you all, but
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: big heat wave where I'm at.
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's horrified, I were listeners can't see me, thank god.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: But the glistening is not dewey skincare.
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: It is literal sweat because it is hot as balls
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: on the show. Yeah sure, yeah, did you all get
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: that heat wave?
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes we did.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: I remember when we moved into kind of like home
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: studio Pandemic recording, Atlanta gets very hot and I realized, like,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: you can't have my aces really loud, and so I
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: was trying to come up with a solution, and I
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: came up with all kinds of wonky things, like putting
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: ice packs all around me, putting my underwear on the fridge.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: But we definitely did get it, and it was brutal,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: it was real. It was real tough.
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it makes my It impacts me as a podcaster
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: because I have like a little sad proof booth, but
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: you can't have a fan or ac in there because
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: right ruin the soundproofing. So when I'm in there, I'm
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: just like, I mean sometimes I like, it's just it's
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: it's like being in a in a sauna.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: I have what I call my sweatshirt, which is just
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: a shirt I wear when I come in here nice
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: because I don't want to do like laundry every like
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: so often. So I'm like, this is the shirt I
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: will sweat through while I'm podcasting.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: I love that. Oh I don't like doing laundry and
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: have to pay for it.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, a lot of my quarters, no way.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: So many things in those conversations.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, speaking of so many things, I feel a
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: little bit guilty about this one, Bridget, because it was
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: a big topic that I was like, you know what,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: I would really love to discuss this, and it's just
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: a huge, spiraling thing, complicated, but I really appreciate you
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: bringing it, and I think it's really important and I'm
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: excited to talk about it and to learn more. So
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: what are we discussing today?
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: Today?
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: We are diving into the wide world of privacy, specifically
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: whether or not messaging apps like WhatsApp actually are private.
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: And I know I can already hear somebody in their
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: car or washing their dishes right now thinking snooze. Privacy
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: has nothing to do with me. I don't break the law,
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: I have nothing to hide. Whatever they have on me,
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: they already have it. Who cares? That is actually a
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: very common attitude called privacy nihilism, where you just are like,
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: the government has all that they're going to have on me,
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: it doesn't matter. And honestly, I get it. Most of
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: us probably don't really think twice before you hit send
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: on a message, right, but what if hitting sen could
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: put you at risk? And the truth is, in twenty
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: twenty five, it literally can. You're texting about abortion or
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: a protest or whatever, your messages could be watched, flagged,
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: or even used against you. Privacy isn't just for people
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: with something to hide, It is for people with something
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: to lose. And right now, in twenty twenty five, given
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: everything that is going on, that is all of us.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, and we're going to get into this more. But
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: it seemed that companies at least have tapped into this worry,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: this concern, and they're competing with each other in ad campaigns.
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: Well, Annie, you sent me this ad from WhatsApp that,
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: in my opinion, heavily implied that WhatsApp is meant to
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: be like a private, secure messaging platform and that one
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: could even trust it for a private conversation about healthcare,
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: like maybe if one was trying to pursue an abortion,
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: this would be a platform that you could do that securely.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: You were also telling me about another ad from Apple.
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: Where it was like camera birds being launched at people
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: or some thing.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that ad is very frightening everyone. It reminds
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: me of the Black Mirror episode with like the robot dogs.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, army robot dog.
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: That's like like it's like the post apocalyptic army robot
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: killer dog.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: Oh my god.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, but there's just these like cameras that have bird
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: wings and they have this screeching sound they make, and
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: they fly after people on the street who are looking
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: at their phone, implying that like they're watching you if
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: you're on your phone or on your laptop, and they're
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: like crash into windows and this is a really piercing sound.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: It's really disturbing. And then it's an ad for Safari
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: that's saying, like, other browsers watch you, Safari doesn't.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: Definitely, they got their finger on the pulse, and the
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: pulse of the moment is concern about our vast surveillance state.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: That much is clear.
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: I think people are worried about it, and these I
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: think these companies are like, oh, let's tap been do
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: people's understandable concern about the surveillance state right now.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: It's so odd though, because like when I sent you
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: that the WhatsApp campaign, it's it's strange to me in
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: a way that we're living in such a dystopian world
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: where there are ads that are like, you don't want
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: anyone to know about your medical you don't want It
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: just has this vibe of overall, it's probably not safe
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: for people to know about these things. I don't know
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: which is true. It's absolutely true, but it's strange that
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: it's in an ad campaign.
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: It's weird to get reminded of it while you're watching
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: Bob's Burgers. Like, I totally understand the like it does
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: feel rather dystopian.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: I totally get it. Yes.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: Oh, and I should say right off the top that
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: I'm not like an online privacy expert.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: I don't work in it. I would more call myself
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: a privacy enthusiast.
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: One of the projects that I work on, in addition
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: to my own podcast or own Our Girls on the Internet,
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: is a podcast that I make with the Mozilla Foundation,
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: the makers of the browser Firefox, called IRL, and it's
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: a podcast all about technology, AI, ethics, and of course privacy.
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: We actually just launched our brand new season a few
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: weeks ago, so folks should check it out. But what's
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: interesting about the show, I think, is that we're really
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: trying to make these conversations that might feel wonky or
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: inaccessible accessible for everybody. And I think that it's important
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: for folks like me, who aren't necessarily privacy experts or
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: don't work in it, to have a sense of the
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: privacy of the technology and the platforms that we do
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: use every day, like we shouldn't treat those as conversations
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: that are just for experts, And especially in twenty twenty
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: five when as we were just discussing the vibes it's
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: giving nineteen eighty four. At times, it's giving dystopian, it's giving,
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: you know, something out of a scary novel, only it's real.
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: That's I mean, I don't know if that's how you
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: all are feeling, but that's how I'm feeling. And so, yeah,
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: privacy and the privacy around the apps that we use
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: every single day becomes even more important.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, and I know we're going to talk about it,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: but we've seen instances of these apps turning over data
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: that people thought was private, weren't thinking that it was
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: going to be shared in this way. So, and you know,
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: I have to say, WhatsApp is an app that I
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: only have experienced generally with my international friends, but I
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: did always get this vibe that it was more secure
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: other apps. So when I saw this ad campaign, what
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: set me off was not WhatsApp. It's when I saw
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: meta at the bottom of it. Yeah, and I was like, okay, wait,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: now I have a lot of concerns. Now I have
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of concerns. So yeah, that's what's going on
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: with WhatsApp here.
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: So let's get into it. For folks who maybe don't
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: know about WhatsApp. It is a free global messaging platform
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: that was launched in two thousand and nine, and it
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: allows folks to send texts, voice messages, video messages, make
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: voice and video calls, share images, documents, user locations, and
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: other content.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: It has over two billion billion with a B users.
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: There are like eight billion people on planet Earth, so like,
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: that is a lot of users. And in twenty sixteen
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: it became the number one messaging platform in the world.
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: And Annie, you were just talking about how you associate
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: it with like international folks, and that is absolutely true
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: because it is particularly important for global communication. If you
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: have aunties or cousins in another country, odds are you've
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: probably used WhatsApp to stay in touch. And by twenty sixteen,
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: it was the primary means of internet communication and regions
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: including the Americas, the Indian subcontinent, and large parts.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: Of Europe and Africa. So yeah, it is a very
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: very popular messaging platform.
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: In twenty fourteen, it was bought by Meta, the company
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: that runs space Book. But back then it was still
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: just called Facebook. Listeners have rightly called me out for
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: sometimes mixing up those two names. Facebook was Facebook in
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: twenty fourteen, they changed their name to Meta to sort
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: of avoid some scandals.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: But Facebook and.
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: Meta for the most part, or like you could think
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: of them as interchangeable for the most part. And so
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: they bought WhatsApp in twenty fourteen. And that means that
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: like the same way that for me, getting online when
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: I was a kid meant America Online, like America Online
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: functionally was the Internet for me, Facebook is essentially the
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: Internet for a whole a whole big swatch of people
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: all over the world, right, And this is all controlled
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: by one person and one company, Mark Zuckerberg. And so
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: really think about that, this one private company basically has
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: total control of the main method of how people get
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: information and communicate with each other. So that gives him, specifically,
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: like an incredible amount of power, power that I would
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: argue has not always been used ethically or responsibly and
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: not always done in a way that keeps what's best
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: for people at the forefront. So if you're asking the
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: big question of like whether or not you would trust
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: WhatsApp run by Meta at their word that they are private.
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: I mean, it really comes down to the fact, like
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: do you trust Facebook, do you trust Mark Zuckerberg, Because
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: that's really what it comes down to. How Facebook and
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: Zuckerberg define what privacy is, like what is private and
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: what is not private, and like what that means. And
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: so this is where it gets a little bit confusing.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: WhatsApp's messages are and to end encrypted by default, so
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: you don't have to turn anything on to message in
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: that way, both for messages and for calls. And bottom
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: line is like that is very good for privacy. So
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: I want to be clear that I'm not saying that
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: WhatsApp specifically is bad for privacy. However, the way that
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: Meta operates as a company is what, in my opinion, makes.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: Things a little bit murky.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: Mozilla's privacy not included blows put it like this, WhatsApp
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: is owned by Facebook, which means Facebook can access some
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: data WhatsApp collects on you for specified purposes, which may be.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: Bad for privacy.
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: So this means WhatsApp might be collecting data on you
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: when you use it, and we actually sort of know
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: this is the case. As of September twenty twenty one.
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: It is known that WhatsApp makes extensive use of outside
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: contractors and AI systems to examine certain messages, images and
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: videos that have been flagged by users as possibly abusive,
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: and it turns over to law enforcement metadata, including critical
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: account and location information. So again it really comes down
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: to whether or not you consider that to be private.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and also, given like a lot of other news
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: that's happened with Meta and Mark Zuckerberg, that just reverses
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: everything that they said they were going to do. So
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: it's also I feel an extension of that is do
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: I believe they're actually going to stick with this thing?
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Are they just going to change it?
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's reasonable to look at how
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: companies historically have moved when they say things. When they
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: say one thing and then do the opposite, I think
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: all of that plays into the question of, like whether
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: or not you're comfortable with them having information about you
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: that could potentially wind you in jail. This is not
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: a hypothetical. We'll talk more about this in a moment,
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: but like that has happened. Conversations people had on Facebook
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: platforms have led to them being in prison.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: So like that's in my book, that's like you're.
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: Giving quite a bit of trust to these platforms. And
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: you know, as I said, Meta owns Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram,
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: and also works with a sprawling network of third parties
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: and contractors, sometimes in like very opaque ways. And so
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: my sense is that Meta is like, oh, well, WhatsApp
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: itself is encrypted, so that means it's private, and then
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: conveniently leave out that users who are concerned about their
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: privacy might also be concerned about how and what data
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: is then being shared with third parties. Like I think
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: that Facebook is like, well, we're encrypted, so that's private.
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: And how Facebook and other companies access data, it's still private.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: I think that's there. That's their their their play there.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it does feel very like, I don't know,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: kind of shuffling it, Like even going back to that AD,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: the Meta symbols very small and that AD, I have
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: to say, I think they were like, we know people
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: know that we've gone through these scandals, but also kind
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: of shuffling it off to the user of you should
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: figure out this was on you. If you were worried
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: about privacy, then I don't know why you didn't take
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: whatever steps.
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I remember, and WhatsApp was bought out, and everybody
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: was really upset because I think at that point a
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: lot of protests and like a lot of gatherings had
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: happened through different messengers like WhatsApp because it were supposed
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: to being encrypted, and then Facebook bar amount and everybody
• 15:13
  Speaker 5: lost that. I remember people talking about what to do next,
• 15:16
  Speaker 5: and that's when Signal kind of got its big boost.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: If I remember correctly.
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: I mean they've always been pretty big, but it got
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: the bigger boost because WhatsApp it eventually became known as
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: now it's going to be Facebook, and then they were
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: real quiet about it.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: They made sure not to change the brand or.
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: The logo, and then they were just I think, really
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: hoping people would forget who owned WhatsApp. And I feel
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: like the same way like you were talking about, when
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: people start clicking on doing the messengers and you get
• 15:40
  Speaker 5: the little you have to read this, this is our
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: terms of service, and no one reads that. Let's look
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: it really honest, it's hard to even decipher. I actually
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: had a similar incident with my loans and when everything was.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Popping off about doge or doge uh.
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: Doing those weird things and looking at the loans and
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: everybody's coming up.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: With a that's illegal.
• 15:59
  Speaker 6: Y'all told us if it gets preached by like organizations
• 16:03
  Speaker 6: like this, then our loans has to be forgiven. My
• 16:06
  Speaker 6: specific loan side came back with a whole agreement that
• 16:10
  Speaker 6: it tells me by the way, a third party can't
• 16:12
  Speaker 6: get access if given permission by blah blah blah.
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: If you agree to this, you can log in. If
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: you don't, you can't log in period.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: But what like, let's like be so for real what
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: I have like read with a five. First of all,
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: you're not an attorney, you're not a lawyer, you're not
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: a contract expert.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: You don't have.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: All day to read sometimes what it's like thirty pages
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: of fine print, Like literally there are artists and activists
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: who have printed out the terms of service that you
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: have to like, you know, agree to and it'll be
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: pages and pages and pages long. And that's not a reasonable.
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: It's not reasonable to expect you to be able to
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: read and understand all of that just to get information
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: about your loan.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: So like, let's be, let's like be for real.
• 16:55
  Speaker 6: They're literally holding your stuff, huss hostage. I feel like
• 16:58
  Speaker 6: that's also I feel like this was a thing with Facebook,
• 17:01
  Speaker 6: especially when they started changing terms and like, yeah, if
• 17:04
  Speaker 6: you want to log in, you can, but you have
• 17:06
  Speaker 6: to give us access to your computer, your information. We
• 17:09
  Speaker 6: have ownership of all your pictures that you're posting. Like,
• 17:12
  Speaker 6: I feel like they were.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Kind of the beginning of that as well.
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: So it's so funny that you say this because in
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: twenty twenty one and this all sort of came to
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: a head when Apple and Facebook kind of had a
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: dispute about this very thing, right, So Apple made this
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: update to their app store which gave users privacy labels
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: that showed all the different data that that app.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Will link to you.
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: So when What's App, owned by Meta was in the
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: app store, Apple published this information that's like, oh, here's
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: the data that this app will link to you, and
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: people were like, uh, wait a minute. I was told
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: this was private, Like, why are you linking so much
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: data to me? So then after that, WhatsApp updated their
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: privacy policy, which inadvertently highlighted they're years old policy of
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: sharing certain user data like phone numbers Facebook. So people
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: who were concerned about their privacy obviously freaked out. And
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: then Ireland hit What'sapp with a record two hundred and
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: sixty six million dollar fine for an alleged lack of
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: transparency over how it shares data with Facebook.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: So when Apple actually gave users.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: The tool to be like, oh, I can make an
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: informed decision transparently about how my data is shared on
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: this app, people were like, nah, I don't actually like that.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: Like it really revealed that perhaps WhatsApp is not as
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: private as some of these ads would have us believe.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, And so going back to the ad where I
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: was like, bridget, I would love if we could talk
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: about this.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: It's a what's up ad?
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: And I thought it was about abortion, but I've seen
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: it since and now I'm like, Okay, it's just some
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: medical situation. It's never clearly stated it's an abortion or
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: anything like that. But the fact that my mind imediately
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: went to, oh, this is they're talking about abortion or
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: like kind of implying abortion, and I was I recoiled
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: so viscerally because I was just like, no, that's that's terrible,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Like we can't be telling people this. And they have
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: like a nice little they show people typing, and the
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: all the letters get all mixed up with numbers and
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: stuff like that, so you can't see what they're typing.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: But I think that goes to show the concerns a
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: lot of us have of this technology that's telling you.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: They're like, oh no, it's private, you can do this
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: thing that has unfortunately become dangerous are risky for a
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: lot of people. And my mind immediately was like, abortion, No,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: that's bad.
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw the ad to I also. I mean,
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: I think they were trying to like you're not seeing
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: things like they don't come out and say it. But
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: I had the same interpretation of that ad as you did.
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: And I think it's just I think people should just
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: know what's up about what's app like, they should understand
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: like what is actually happening. Because if I were to
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: use any analogy to explain on it, I would say,
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: there's private in that you told your good girlfriend something
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: and she took it to her grave that she never
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: told a soul. And then there's private like that you
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: told your good girlfriend something and she shared it with
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: her husband.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: And it's one thing.
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: When we're talking about like a juicy secret, it's another
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: and we're talking about something that unfortunately like could get.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: You locked up.
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: And you know, when it comes to abortion, we know
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: that Facebook does have a bit of a track record
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: with this. So Facebook turned over the chads of a
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: mother and daughter to Nebraska police after they were served
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: with a warrant as part of an investigation into an
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: illegal abortion, so they notably, these two women were not
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: using WhatsApp, they were using Facebook Messenger. But I do
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: think it shows some in into how this all works because,
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: as I said, it's all the same umbrella company Meta.
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: So in June, before Rowe was overturned, Facebook gave the
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: police department in Norfolk, Nebraska, access to their private messages
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: that Jessica Burgess and her then seventeen year old daughter
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: shared about how to obtain abortion bills. Burgess ended up
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: getting sentenced to two years in prison and.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: Her daughter got ninety days.
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: The platform that they were using to communicate, Facebook Messenger
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: does offer and to add encryption, just like WhatsApp does,
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: meaning that the chats between the two women were only
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: visible to them on their phones and not readable by
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: Facebook or any government entity that makes a legal request
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: to the company. But that option is really only available
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: to folks who were using Facebook Messenger on the app
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: on a mobile device, not like on desktop or on
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: a laptop or something.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: And the messages are only.
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: Encrypted after users selects the option to mark those chats
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: as secret. So you can see how that's less secure
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: than WhatsApp that has that as a default setting to
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: go in and click secret on mobile to get that
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: end to end encryption. And what's worse is that Facebook
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: just immediately complied by giving these chats over to the police,
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: which they really don't have to do. Legal experts told
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: The Guardian that Facebook could have fought the warrant in court.
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: In there other instances where tech companies have refused to
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: comply with government demands. Apple refused to comply with federal
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: law enforcement's request to break into an iPhone involving the
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: Sin Bernardino shooting back in twenty sixteen, and Facebook itself
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: successfully refused to comply with a wiretapping request for messenger
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: calls back in twenty eighteen. So they don't have to
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: give this information over to police, but they do, and
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: they're able to have it.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: And that's that's the frightening thing, because we use, all
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: of us use this stuff in some way or another,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: maybe not Facebook Messenger or maybe not What'sapp. But it's
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: just a concern with all of these platforms of you
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: know what, I thought this was a something that was private. Yeah,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I'm going to jail, or it's been turned over.
• 23:10
  Speaker 6: We can talk about the fact that they have been
• 23:11
  Speaker 6: hacked so many what my WhatsApp has been hacked so
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: many times. My messenger has been hacked so much.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: I was like, I've f this.
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: I'm not doing this anymore, and I completely refuse to
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: use it except anytime anyone sends me a message, whether
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: it's my partner or someone.
• 23:25
  Speaker 6: You have to download it if you're not on the laptop.
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: But and even on the laptop, you can't get it
• 23:30
  Speaker 6: unless you do you download the app and get another code,
• 23:34
  Speaker 6: which is like, what you're making me do this?
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: So I actually included all the different instances of WhatsApp
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: being hacked.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: There are many, there's a there's many, many many.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: At the last minute, I was like, well, hacking is
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: different than and again it's not different than privacy.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: I made a game day decision to be.
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: Like, let's let's exclude hacking from the conversation.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: But I don't like you what's that beginning hacked? Like
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: it's a real thing.
• 24:02
  Speaker 6: I mean, if they want to say be you know,
• 24:03
  Speaker 6: like it's secure and private and all these things, but
• 24:06
  Speaker 6: like one goes in hand in hand. How'm I gonna
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: trust you if every other day I get a message
• 24:09
  Speaker 6: from this person they're saying, Hey, did you send me
• 24:11
  Speaker 6: these things? Just because I opened an app and it
• 24:14
  Speaker 6: turns out that someone has hacked into my account? Like, obviously,
• 24:18
  Speaker 6: if you can't even get like the security to keep
• 24:21
  Speaker 6: my stuff, okay, how do you have the ability to
• 24:24
  Speaker 6: keep it private?
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Exactly? Just and just to be super clear, even.
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: If WhatsApp their encryption means that they cannot hand the
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: content of your messages over to the police, if the
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: police were trying to build a case against you that
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: relied on location data, like say, did you travel to
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: xyz location to obtain an abortion and you live in
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: a place where you were not legally permitted to travel
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: across state lines to do so, or like were you
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: at x y z protest? WhatsApp has metadata, So even
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: if they can't give you get the actual messages, they're
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: fine giving metadata, which includes things like your location or
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: contacts who you were messaging. They're fine to give that
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: information over and so and they have that information. And
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: so it's really about understanding privacy in a more holistic
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: way that it's not just about the content of your messages.
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: It's about how secure is its platform, Like is it
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: easily hacked?
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: Is it hackable? Does it have a history of being hacked?
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: You know, what kind of metadata are they collecting? How
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: do they use that metadata?
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: It's really about asking all of these background questions in
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: addition to just like how do they keep my content safe?
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Right? And on top of that, it's also there are
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: some things some laws that we have that sort of
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: allow for them to be like, yeah, we can track you, right, Yeah.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: So I learned this in doing the research for this
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: episode that thanks to the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, they're
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: basically able to track users without probable cause. In January
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: twenty twenty two, an unsealed surveillance application revealed that WhatsApp
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: started tracking even users from China and November twenty twenty one,
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: based on a request from USDA investigators. The app collected
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: data on who the user's contacted and how often and
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: when and how they were.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: Using the app.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: And this is reportedly not an isolated thing, as federal
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: agencies can use the Electronic Communications Privacy App to covertly
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: track users without submitting any probable cause or linking a
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: user's number to their identity.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: And I should just.
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: Add a sort of global note about this whole thing
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: is that WhatsApp has two different platforms, regular WhatsApp and
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: then WhatsApp Business that's meant for small businesses to communicate.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: That was rolled out in twenty eighteen. Everything that I've
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: said so.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: Far is really about regular WhatsApp, and that's because WhatsApp's
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: business platform is actually less private. So yeah, don't use
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: that to talk about anything.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: To go.
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean it kind of makes sense because like
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: if you're if you're a business entity, you're communicating with
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: so many different people in a different way.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: But like I kind of get where they're coming from there.
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: But I just wanted to say that in case someone's like, oh,
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: I have what'sapp business, like, let me use it the
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: way that Bridgette told me I should be using it.
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: Like that's a whole different beast.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I thought that was gonna be an upgrade.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: Not downgrade.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: It's not business class.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: No, it's on a plane. It's like better, but if
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: it's worse, not this much.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, Well we have been you know, focusing on WhatsApp,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: and surely all of the all of these applications we
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: could talk about, but you know, what's app in particular,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: how how's it doing with privacy when it comes to privacy.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: So, as I said, ultimately, WhatsApp, I would say, is
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: like pretty private, like good for privacy. Here's how Mozilla's
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: privacy experts put it. From a technical perspective. No, WhatsApp
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: itself is not really bad for privacy. WhatsApp use this
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: strong end to end encryption for all texts, chats, and
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: video calls.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: This is great.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: WhatsApp cannot read your messages or see your call. The
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: flip side of this is Facebook, a company infamous for
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: its vast and questionably ethical collection of so much data,
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: owns WhatsApp. This means that lots of metadata, things like
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: purchase history, location, device idea and more can be captured
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: and shared with businesses advertising on WhatsApp.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: So people looking for a true.
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: Privacy centered messaging app can find much better options.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, and speaking of.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: Option, peeing me.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: Up beautifully to talk about one of my favorite apps,
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: and that is Signal. I am such a Signal fangirl.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: I had been a fangirl of Signal for a very
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: long time. I remember the very first time I encountered Signal.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: I was like trying to date somebody, and.
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: This person eventually became a very good friend of mine,
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: but initially I was like, oh, what's this platform? And
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: I was telling a friend like, oh, I met this
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: this person and they didn't give me their number. They
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: were like, here's my signal. And my friend I was
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: telling this too, was like, are they an eco terrorist?
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: Because back then the only person who who you would
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: have signal on their phone was an eco terrorist. Like
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: that is how long I've been with Signal. But Signal
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: is amazing.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: It is free. Everyone listening should download Signal right now.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: And it is run by an incredible nonprofit that is
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: helmed by this woman, Meredith Whittaker, who is this bad
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: woman in technology who does a lot of interesting writing
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: on surveillance.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: I genuinely, like deeply, deeply admire her.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: If you ever want to be really challenged in a
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: good way, like watch up videos of her lectures.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: She's just a fascinating.
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: Human being and so a Signal generally considered to be
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: more secure in privates than WhatsApp due to its just
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: general commitment to user privacy as a nonprofit and its
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: open source nature.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: While WhatsApp uses end to end.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: Encryption, Signal goes further by not collecting any user metadata
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: and being backed by this nonprofit organization, which generally does
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: minimize the potential for that kind of data exploitation, right.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: And so, whereas they're both using end to end encryption,
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: WhatsApp does collect and share metadata, Signal does not.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: They don't collect any of that.
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: So that is definitely the better platform if you're talking
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: about anything at all sensitive and honestly, it's just a
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: platform that I use, like as like, most of my
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: conversations are happening on Signal.
• 30:47
  Speaker 6: I'm going to start this joke here. Unless you're dom
• 30:50
  Speaker 6: enough to send messages to the people you're not supposed
• 30:53
  Speaker 6: to be sending, like, you know, toxic information to journalists.
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: If you're listening, Pete Heggsaft, we're talking about you. You
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: know what makes me mad about that is that that
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: was the probably for a lot of Americans, that was
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: probably the first time they had ever heard about Signal,
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: and Signal is so awesome, it's so great, they have
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: such a great like mission, and it made me sad
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: that the first encounter that a lot of people were
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: having was with Pete Hegsath like completely misusing it, and
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: even in some of the reporting about that, they were
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: sort of trying to make it signals like like oh like,
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: oh like what is this shadowy app that they were
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: using and how could this happen? And it's like, no,
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: it signal didn't do anything wrong.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: It was user error, right.
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: Honestly, I was really shocked that they use such a
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: public like platform that is free.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you're the government.
• 31:47
  Speaker 6: Don't you have your own kind of like chat application
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: that you used within your own people, Like I don't this.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: There's a lot I have questions about in this moment.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: I can answer that question for you.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: The answer is absolutely, the United States government has spends
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: lots and lots and lots of money to develop and
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: use super secure messaging apparatus. Yeah, single is not the
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: use case for this if you're if you're talking about
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: like secret military plans. I do love like I read
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: the different conversations that were happening.
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: I can't remember who it was. It might have been
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: jd Vance. Don't quote me on that.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: Who is like only responding in thumbs up emojis?
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: It's one of.
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: Them that it's like just stick a thumbs up there
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: and they'll they'll get the gist, Like I don't want
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: to be in print on this one, which looking back
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: was probably a smart idea.
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the little level of like comedy here is just
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: like what is going on, but it feels right.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: It feels about right, the disaster.
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: And doom and like a comedic form like yeah, okay,
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: that's where we are.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: Sometimes you gotta laugh to keep from crying. Am I right?
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: It's true.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: I have to admit to you all. I wrote in
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: a fan for Lately I had a plot point about
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: this whole thing, because yes, because I was trying to
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: figure out how to make something that was incredibly stupid
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: happen in the government, and I was like, well, it
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: already happened, so I can point to real life evidence
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: and be.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Like, you know what.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: I would have thought it was too too stupid, but
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: it did happen. So I just wrote it in and
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: it kind of saved me a whole headache of figuring
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: out next.
• 33:29
  Speaker 6: I mean, it's true, like all of the things that
• 33:31
  Speaker 6: they have predicted, this level of stupidity, it's no longer
• 33:34
  Speaker 6: funny because it's like right on, yeah, like this should.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Not be this real.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: You know, stuff is bad when like if you were
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: writing a fictional work about it and you were be like, oh,
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: that's too on the nose, nobody's going to buy that
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: it happened from.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: The headlines, you're good.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: You know one thing that has One of the reasons
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: I really wanted to talk about this bridget is that
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I was so when I saw that commercial.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: I was so.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Worried about people believing it, Like you know, like I
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: was really concerned that people would be like, oh, this
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: is a this is a secure interface that I can
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: use and getting in trouble or having this really terrible experience.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: And I do know what you were talking about earlier
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: that a lot of people do have that sort of
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: burnout of like, you know what, they already know, they
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: already have it, what's even worth trying? But it really
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: it really worried me when I saw it, and I
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: think given the environment we live in now, that it
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: is something that we need to talk about and be
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: aware of and be educated on.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, I'm glad that you're bringing it to the Semintee
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: listeners because it is important and it can always be
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: really hard to tell marketing from reality, especially with this
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: because it is a little bit murky, But I guess
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: I would just offer, like, the reality is that we're
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: in a world where our rights are being rolled back,
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: where protest is criminalized, healthcare is criminalized. In a world
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: like that, privacy and security is not just a tech issue.
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: It is a survival issue, and we.
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: Have to protect our data and our conversations the way
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: that we also protect each other. I know that someone
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: listening out there is like, Bridget you sound paranoid. It
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: is not about being paranoid. It's about being prepared and
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: being cognizant of like the reality that we are in today.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: And so if using signal over WhatsApp and getting into
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: the habit of doing that, if that could potentially save
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: somebody listening a whole lot of stress, I want to
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: offer that, like, there are small, meaningful changes that we
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: can make to keep things more secure and private that
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: don't cost us anything that we should be doing. And
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: I honestly think, like if you are someone who is
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: I don't even know how to put this, Like I
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: am like prepper minded a little bit right, Like I'm like, oh,
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: the vibes are bad, the vibes are weird.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: Like, better get prepared.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: I think right now the big thing we should be
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: preparing for is cyber security, and like like like.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: I think that it's probably more likely that we are going.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: To see digital attacks and cyber attacks, probably more so
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: than other kinds of things you could be prepping for.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: And so preparing and getting yourself situated for those kinds
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: of attacks is easy and free.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: It doesn't take a lot. And so I would say.
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: If you're feeling unnerved and uncertain in these times, start there,
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: like said, is something that you can manage. It does
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: not take a lot to get yourself in a good
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: protect place.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, and you over on your podcast There Are No
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet and other episodes on spinty, You've
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: done a lot of a lot of episodes about that,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: about how that can look and what you can do.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: So thank you as always.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, thanks for having me, my pleasure. And
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: if you want more conversations about tech and privacy, check
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: out the newest season of Mozilla's IRL podcast all about
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: those very topics.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and thank you, We always love having you on.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Thank you for taking this topic. Suggestion but yes, where
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: can the good listeners find you?
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: You can find me at the IRL podcast, on my
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: podcast or No Girls on the Internet and on Instagram
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: at Bridget Marie DC.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, looking forward to next time Bridget. In the meantime,
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: if you would like to contact those listeners, you can.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: You can email us at hello at Stuffmomenever Told You?
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: Dot com.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: You can find us on blue Sky, It moms to
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Told You for us on YouTube band. We have a
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: as always to our super bluster Christina, executive du My
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: and a contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: for listening Stuff Never Told You propection by heart Radio.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or where you
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows.