Latest / Babes, how did you get here / She Left New York's Symphony for Her Husband's Happiness in Jamaica

Transcript

She Left New York's Symphony for Her Husband's Happiness in Jamaica · Babes, how did you get here

• 0:12
  I remember having this like out of body experience. I got all soaked up and I told my mom, wait, that's what I'm going to be. She said, you don't even practice your piano. I'm not getting any violin for you. And you know, I think like that. I had to beg for six months. Six months. Six months. And she finally gave it to me and I couldn't put it down. I will say it became an obsession. I didn't need friends because I had my violin.
• 0:35
  heard a sound that expressed me. So, I mean, when I say friend, I mean, it was my friend. Yeah, and my teacher made me feel like I was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Because when I look back now, I was scratching on Twinkle, but he just made me feel like I was the latest. That's amazing. I was like, oh yes, I'm amazing.
• 0:55
  We're dropping new episodes every single week. So make sure you subscribe. You don't want to miss this, babes. And leave a comment and tell me, what do you want to hear out of my next conversation? Your support really helps this community grow. And if you know someone who's quietly been thinking, should they take that next big leap? Babes, send them the podcast.
• 1:14
  Welcome to A Life Elsewhere, the podcast that dives into the lives of people who have packed up, started over and built something new far from home. Today's guest is Dr. Lisa Walker, a professional violinist, devoted educator and mother to seven incredible children. But she didn't come to Jamaica looking for sunshine or slow living. She came here for love, a deep, enduring love of her Jamaican husband, Courtney, whose happiness is rooted in this island. Welcome to A Life Elsewhere.
• 1:43
  Whilst Lisa would not have necessarily chosen Jamaica as her home, it is the place that she has built a life full of meaning, raising a large, grounded family with care, insight and hard-won wisdom, always having music as her anchor. In this episode, we explore the quiet power of sacrifice.
• 2:03
  the complexity of choosing someone else's dream, and why Lisa believes that every child should learn an instrument. Her story is honest and moving and full of lessons that only life and love can teach. Again, or some such and right into college. So they have their pathway. What do you think it is about Jamaica that makes your husband transform into the man that you love so much? Well, outside of the...
• 2:28
  the food and the climate. Sure. It's the sense of community. Okay. He belongs here. Right. Right. And I'm not joking. When we go to the grocery store, I don't... It doesn't matter what time of the day. He runs into somebody that he went to high school with, or that he used to work with, and they start talking and reminiscing. Yeah.
• 2:53
  It's his world. I mean, he even does things like, what do you call that, a speaker? He'll go into the speaker, into the grocery store and play loud music. Now, you know, you would be X'd out in the United States, who plays out, and all the cashiers are bobbing to it, and I'm like, can you turn that off? And when he turns it off, they say, hey, put the music back on! You know, and so he just loves that, that this is his world, this is his environment, so. And for you,
• 3:20
  Do you feel that you can belong here? Because when I first started speaking to you, the first thing that came to my mind is that a very accomplished lady who plays the violin, who has toured with orchestras, who has seen the world, and I'm like,
• 3:37
  I love Jamaica, right? But for example, when I want some foie gras, which I know is really controversial and just forgive me for liking it. I know I'm not supposed to, I'm very sorry. But I can get on a plane and go to Miami an hour and 20 minutes away and I can have my little foie gras and a little bit of brioche.
• 3:56
  and you can have that dining experience. And then I've had my fill and then I come. But whatever I want to do career-wise or life-wise, I can essentially do here. Okay. And so my first thing is that for you, I completely appreciate that music isn't just a job for you. It is your passion. It is the thing that you spread and influence amongst so many people. And I'm like, but you can't really just go to the orchestra here or Carnegie Hall isn't here.
• 4:25
  And so I always wonder, do you feel a little bit resentful to Jamaica because it can't give you those things? I'm going to say that I had an experience when I was in the Louvre in Paris. And I was looking at the pictures, you know, because my first love really is art, believe it or not. That's another topic. And so, and I had received news about...
• 4:55
  the previous week that we would be leaving Paris and going
• 4:58
  back in Jamaica. Before we continue, make sure that you join our community by clicking the link below. You will get to choose thumbnails before the episodes go live, pick our next destinations, even recommend guests. I really cannot wait for you to help me shape where this podcast goes. And I remember I was really despondent. I was just really down. And then the Holy Spirit said to me, but look carefully at the paintings.
• 5:27
  which one of them is actually from Paris? And when I look carefully, I realized that it was the best of art wherever it was located. And because it was so good, it made it to the Louvre in Paris. So the message was you can be the artist you are wherever you're located. And that's I think I took on that model. I realized that, you know,
• 5:56
  There's no reason why I can't be. Sure. And so I do. I, I, when I teach my kids here, I pretend like I'm teaching at university. Okay. Right? Same standard. Right. Same standard. Which is why you start off with two and end up with a hundred. Yeah. Same standard. Yeah. Even the kids, you know, they know that I, there's no screaming or yelling.
• 6:16
  I tell them this is a professional environment. Sure. So anything that you would not do in a professional environment Don't do it here. Is not going to be accepted here. Sure. Right? And if you're sticking out, how it happens in orchestras, your ass first asked to tass it. That means you cannot play. Okay. And then after that, they will kindly ask you to observe. Okay. Just the status. Yeah. Until you understand. Right. So, and that's how, so there's no screaming. Sure. Be quiet. Nothing like that.
• 6:42
  So do you have some students who perhaps outside of that environment, they would be, let's call it playing up, screaming or whatever. And then when they come to your environment, they play ball by your rules. Yeah, or art. I ask them, which kind of orchestra would you like to belong to? And of course, I caricature something nasty and chaotic. And then I show them, you know. This is what we are. Yeah, and how it fits, even with the violin. I mean, do you want your music to be messy? Or do you want it to be clear, clean, you know, effective?
• 7:10
  you know, and the kids catch on very quickly. The reason I find that so interesting is because I think we're in this really strange new age of parenting where
• 7:20
  It's never the parent's responsibility when something's not going well. It's just innate children. So like tantrums all the time, it's got nothing to do with your parenting. It's just kids being kids, right? And I don't believe in that. I mean, for obvious reasons, but people always say that it's easy for me not to believe in it because I just got unicorns. And I'm like, hmm. But based on what you're saying, which is kind of speaks to my point, is that the environment that we're creating will dictate or at least heavily influence the behavior that we get.
• 7:50
  And you said it, right? If you have a child that perhaps behaves a particular way in one environment, but you have made it really clear what your boundaries are and how that environment is going to operate with or without them. Right. But I also show them that it's not just my choice. How else would it operate? Right. What's the alternative? Yeah. I give you a case in point. That's right. Because, you know, we have this saying that we do what we should do, not what we want to do. Sure.
• 8:16
  The person who works the lights, they don't want to go to work today. Sure. What are the consequences? Right? The surgeon says, well, I'm having a bad day. So I think I'm just not going to go to the person that you see. I help them from a very young age, help them understand how the world works. Yes, you may be feeling this,
• 8:36
  But what is the decision that we should make? If you start screaming in the store and you fall on the floor, well, it's unpleasant for all the people working, right? There, I mean, it causes a commotion. And you busted your ass on the floor. Yeah, right? People didn't come shopping to hear somebody, you know, who doesn't have self-control. We work on something called self-control. And if you don't have self-control, I can help you. A little less time on the screen, an earlier bedtime. I mean, you know. Don't get me started on the screen, baby. Yeah, okay. There you go. All right, so.
• 9:05
  Yeah, so it's just that. It's just, you know, real life. I love that you said feeling because I think even as adults, I mean, I always say adults are big kids, right? Like the fact that we've aged, not everybody has necessarily gained wisdom in those years. And I think a lot of times nowadays we're going off of our feelings. Oh, yeah. Everything is a feeling. Yeah. I tried that one day. The kids came and said, Mom, where's breakfast? I said, well, I don't feel like getting out of bed.
• 9:29
  They said, but we're hungry. No, I'm I'm I'm feeling kind of sad. I just decided, you know, that I don't want to. Right. Right. And they can see instantly. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I really, really love that. So you come to Jamaica, you realize you're like, I'm going to make
• 9:46
  myself still be the amazing musician that I am regardless of my environment. Are you able to tell me just a little bit about how you do that in a place that isn't necessarily as exposed to the things that you have been? Right. Well, mostly I'm able to do it in my lessons and my classes and my children.
• 10:05
  Okay. My children. So when we go out to play, they can see string playing at its best. Sure. Right? And so people look and learn. So for example, we're going to Interlochen and there's a boy.
• 10:16
  who also got accepted, he's on the top part of the island, St. Mary or something like that. So we got together and we were able to show the level that they're going to be exposed to. So there's the kids themselves, and then in my lessons, right, I use my violin, the 1898 $80,000 instrument. $80,000 violin. Yes, I do, I do, right in my classes. So they instantly, they know they're hearing a different sound. And then the way I run the classes,
• 10:44
  Right. I am a professional. Sure. And everything we do is going to be such that when I'm no longer in your life or when you go abroad and represent yourself, they'll know that you have been professional. At the standard. Yeah. So I keep that centered and that helps.
• 11:01
  because I'm not lessening myself by being here. I'm keeping one standard. When you told your friends, colleagues, people that you were moving to Jamaica, did they think that you were going steps backwards? Well, you know, here's the funny thing, that when I, the first time before we ever came, remember between 1990s and 1997, I was, I had just made the first violin section of the Rockford Symphony Orchestra and my friend was a concertmaster and I was gonna sit next to her and she was like, oh, you know,
• 11:28
  why would you ruin your career like this? How are you, you're giving up to go where? They don't even have an orchestra. And I said, you're right. So I came and I'll make a long story short. I did a string project here for four years. I wrote a book on my experience because of the way Jamaican kids learn is different.
• 11:46
  Can you tell me, I know that you're trying to make the long story short, but what do you mean? For example, I could say one sentence or two. By the time I get to the third sentence, their eyes have glazed over. Okay, they're no longer hearing. No, it is not a listening society, it's a doing society. So now those lessons are no longer, okay, so now this is, oh, I'll give you a true case in point.
• 12:10
  The first time a mother dropped her child off to play, of course I'm teaching them how to hold the ball, the basics. Mother came back after an hour and said, so what can my child play? And I said, well, I'm teaching them the basics. And she said to me, she said, no, I don't have the money, the resources for you to teach my child the basics. I only want you to teach them how to play, okay?
• 12:33
  And she was serious. That's all the money. She said, the basics sounds great, but that's not what I'm paying you for. I can't afford that. Exactly. So I said, okay, no problem. Next lesson, I taught the child the basics for 45 minutes. In the last 15 minutes, I taught them something called reggae twinkle, which I made up, which is eh, eh, eh, eh.
• 12:54
  And so that's all they were playing. And of course I put my fingers down, but together the mother was hearing music. And so she was happy. She was happy. And then of course I'm happy because I'm doing- You've spent the bulk of- Well, I know what I need to do- Sure. For them to be able to play. Right? And little by little the child starts to put down their fingers and then I start backing off and then voila, you have a project. So I call that performance based pedagogy where even when I'm teaching, I don't talk to them. I said, okay, which hand is your bow hand? That's action oriented.
• 13:23
  With your bow hand, pick up the bow, okay? How about the violin? Not in all societies do kids learn in the same way you're saying. You're saying that is something, okay. Yeah, like so like, when I was in Paris, I taught 70 different nationalities. So I'll just say like my Asian kids, I mean, they could hear the notes, it was uncanny.
• 13:43
  Do you think that's connected to their language? Absolutely. Because, jeez, I'm being, it's hard. Yeah, it's a tonal range. So tonal. It's a tonal range. And so what I'm finding for Jamaica is like the cello and the viola are more natural. More suited. Yeah, more natural. Okay. So yeah, it absolutely is. But that's really interesting. You do.
• 14:05
  Sorry, I definitely took you off of a tangent. No, no, no, it's okay. But you were saying that when you told your colleague that you were coming, she thought it was a step back. Exactly. So I took that.
• 14:15
  four years. Sure. And I used it as, so when I went to do my doctorate, a doctoral program is a minimum of three years. Okay. I was able to complete it in two because I said I already did my project before I came here. Based off of this. That's right. And it has to be original material. Right. So I took those four years. Sure. Photos and programs. And then I also gave in that book what I learned, which is performance-based pedagogy. Sure. Which, I mean, it was an eye-opener because as you know,
• 14:45
  children, people extremely talented musically, okay? Jamaican, Israeli and Russian. Okay. Those, I mean, there's just, it's a gift there. I never teach music here, I only teach technique. Okay, because there's already... It's already there. I've never had to say to a Jamaican child, can you be musical?
• 15:09
  Right? Never. They know what it is. That's really interesting. When you did that four-year program, did you know that you were going to be able to use that later on? I did not. Oh, it just worked out that way? It just worked out. And so that same girl, when she said it, I said, okay, well, I'm just going to go do my thing. And then, so finish that story. When I did my doctorate in it, now I'm Dr. Lisa Walker. Yes. And if she wants to progress, it's me she has to come to. Yes, babes!
• 15:35
  So, and I think- And it's also funny because your character is so calm and lovely. Whereas me, I'm like, you know, you have to come to me now. Yeah, yeah. And it kind of, you know, the relationship suffered because when she looked and she realized, I thought she was stepping back. Sure. To step forward.
• 15:51
  But isn't that lovely, the way the universe works? Absolutely. Absolutely. Even those kids, like I was telling you, that my husband Compton, LA. Yes. It's just the worst part. Yep. And so you'll find this interesting. My very first class with them. Mm hmm. And this is Compton, LA. Yeah. Yep. These are gay children. OK. And they were running around the room, I mean, using the bows as weapons and
• 16:18
  I didn't even open my mouth. I just sat there because I knew I was in... Is this you in a public school? Yeah. Okay. What age range? Nine years old somewhere there. Okay. And you're there as their music teacher. That's right. Okay. And I knew not to even open my mouth. Right. I'm sensitive like that. Sure. So after a while, the kids said, you know, ain't you gonna teach us nothing? Oh Lord. I said,
• 16:47
  you know, and I studied my environment. I'll just jump to the end. Yeah. And I realized that there's a leader, like a leader. Yep. If you get to that one, everybody will do with that. Right. So I worked on that one to get my concertmaster. So I started using vocabulary that they knew. Okay. Right. So I had to observe first. Right. To understand. To get the data. Exactly. Yeah. So I got that person to care.
• 17:14
  about playing the instrument. They became my concert master. And then that person started saying. So personally, you need a shit. Right. That person was like, you sit here, you sit there. And I told them what the end goal is. Right. They knew they had been rejected. Right. And I said, we're going to play on that program because it's an audition. Yes. And you guys are gonna get the top seats. Okay. And they were like,
• 17:36
  So it's like the cat and the dog, sorry, the dog should have caught the mouse, but the mouse was running for its life or something. The dog was just running for a meal. Right. So those kids, they were just practicing for a nice seat. These kids were practicing for a sense of identity. Right. And they wanted to be seen as different. And they saw the violin as a chance to do that. So they bought into that vision. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I brought, as I always do, the level of professionalism.
• 17:59
  Right? That's what we do with the instrument. I mean, you can stab your person with your bow if you'd like. But listen to what my bow does. Okay. And I showed them what it does, and they're like,
• 18:09
  they melted, right? Isn't it crazy just the exposure though? Like it kind of breaks my heart. I remember watching Australia come here. We had like Commonwealth netball games and I was in high school at the time. And normally how netball works, number one and two tends to be Australia and New Zealand. Number three and four tends to be Jamaica and England, right? It kind of rotates.
• 18:30
  And as we know, Australia is a country that puts out so many sports, like people, whether it's cricket, everything, rowing, they do so many. But the fact is, is that they have resources, right? So it's very much a part of their culture to do all of these things. And in the same way that you allow your children to pick an instrument, I imagine that they get to just pick a sport because you can have it like all available to you. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember just being there and just being like,
• 18:58
  you know, the things we do as Jamaicans, we do, you know. And I tell people all the time, our culture is the ends. We live on the ends of the spectrum. And so when you're saying this, it's like, imagine how many, you know,
• 19:12
  viola players we have, but we'll never necessarily know about them. And you just described that in that story because these people are starting to attack people with bows and then they understand the vision because someone has presented them, not just with the vision, but the opportunity to actually get there. And then you get the results, right?
• 19:33
  I did. It was just, and I remember the elderly lady, she was so happy when all the other teachers that had rejected them came to this concert and saw these kids sitting in the top chairs. And let me tell you, the way they played that William Tell, it floored me. I explained to them, I play the violin, but the way you play it, the essence that you put behind it, it's more powerful. Why did you teach them? I mean, if I came into a room and people are stabbing people with bows, I might be like, actually, I'm not sure that this is me.
• 20:04
  Well, it was a, I told you my motto, whatever you're given, do your very best job. Okay. And so I didn't choose them. Sure. It's just that the other violin teacher said, you're a noob, take these kids. So, yeah. So I just looked it and I realized that if I just start talking, I'm not gonna be successful. So I just observed. That's incredible. I observed, I watched them and
• 20:28
  To this day, they just remain my most favorite. Well, I have another group. Oh, tell me. Who's your favorite group? Yeah, this was here in Jamaica. Really? Jamaica National Children's Zone. Okay. Yeah, they took 10, about 10 kids. Yep. And they said, we'd like you to teach them. I said, okay, yeah, that's fine. Sure. And so they came in and they were like,
• 20:51
  They had all kinds of reasons why, you know, they came with the sob story. Sure. You know, I have no mom, I have no dad. Okay. I have no future. I have no, I was like, oh, okay. How about we play the violin? Right. So they chose to finish roots. Okay. So they used to come back. I said, did you practice? So no, I didn't practice because, and they started on that long story again. I said, okay, okay. Let me tell you how it works for music. Music is not a respecter of persons. Hmm.
• 21:15
  So, I mean, you really don't want the audience to cry twice because you sound so badly on the instruments. Okay. So with or without a parrot, you need to practice because, you know- Music doesn't care. Yeah, exactly. Music doesn't care and neither does the audience. Okay. So I said, tell me what you want. They said, okay.
• 21:37
  We want to have a pool party at your house. Oh, really? I said, okay. You practice every day. What age? Now this, they went all the way up to like 16. Okay. So nine to 16. Okay. Yes, you practice every day for 30 days. And I will give you your own party
• 21:54
  here at my house, grill out, pool party, the party of your dreams. They looked at each other like, ha ha. I got a call two weeks into it from the person who runs the children's home and said, I don't know what it is. I go to tuck the children in at night and I have to pull back the covers and take their instrument out of the bed. So they earned...
• 22:17
  The pool party. Yeah, and they came over and my kids were like, Mom, I don't understand a word they're saying. I said, it's OK. Try harder. Try harder. So in one go, they got, it was a hardcore bachelor. Yeah, and they're like, oh. I said, well, if you can't understand, just say OK and hop into the water.
• 22:36
  And so it was great fun for everybody. It was my neighbors that complained, but I absolutely ignored them. And I said, this is an opportunity for the kids. And so we're gonna do this. Oh, fast forward where one of the girls got a full scholarship to Edna Manley to absolutely change her life.
• 22:53
  But I believe I've changed all of their lives because they understood that, okay, your circumstances may not be ideal, but what can you do? Right here, you have this opportunity, you can practice, and so you will, right? If you want to sound good, if you don't want them to cry for you twice. Right, one, because you don't have parents and two because you don't have parents.
• 23:13
  You also can't play. Yes, yes. You really don't want that. So, I think they were, for me to have a higher standard for them, they also rose to the occasion. Right. And then of course they're Jamaican.
• 23:26
  You know how we roll, babe. Yep. I told you about the nine kids, the nine Jamaican kids. I took to Florida and took to a competition. So we did the first round here in Jamaica by Zoom. Okay. They made it. And then the finals were in Florida. So nine kids played together or they? Separately. Individual. It's also in the newsletter.
• 23:46
  I took them to Jacksonville, Florida to compete. Yep. Who are they competing with? Everybody from the state. Really? Yeah, all the kids that got superior. Okay. So all of them placed. Yep. And the teachers,
• 24:01
  they were extremely unhappy. They said, it's not possible for an entire studio to be, to play. To have everyone place. So, and so. When you say place, that means that they made the top. First or second or, you know. Okay. So the person at the top said, okay, what is your complaint? They said, well, she had an advantage.
• 24:20
  And the person said, okay, what advantage did they have? And the best they can come up with is the music she played was more exciting. It was the same syllabus, we all had access. I said, know what she means is the kids played it in a more exciting manner. So you are correct. I had an advantage because every single one of those children were Jamaican. And that's the advantage I had. But hold on, they give you what to play, no? No, it's a list of like 12 pieces. And it doesn't matter what.
• 24:48
  the Jamaican child brought it to life. I'm telling you, when I said I do not teach music here, that's what I'm saying. Okay. They get it. So she's upset that they had a little more soul. No, exactly. Exactly. The other kids, they play the notes. Okay, great. But the Jamaican kids, they brought it to life. And that is it. So I said, yes, that's the advantage I have. But now what are you going to do about that? Right? And so, you know, they ask, can I give one back one of the trophies? I said, no, we absolutely will not. Did they actually ask?
• 25:18
  Why would anyone do that? I mean, it was hard for them to, and I understand from a different perspective, right? It's not possible. But at that time I was in Jamaica, so my whole studio was Jamaican. Whereas normally I guess you're getting different people from different places. Exactly, right. So in that moment, I had an advantage.
• 25:41
  And it was a beautiful image. So in that respect, I'm really happy to be here in Jamaica because the talent is just off the charts. Where do you see music at your level going in Jamaica? Do you see more students? Here's what I see and what I think I can fix.
• 26:00
  So you have a lot of talented people here. Right. But what happens is when you go overseas, if you're not at a certain level... If you speak when you're supposed to just play... Yeah, you will have a ceiling, but also in terms of technique. Right. So there was a child, I'll leave the name, that was here super talented, and I kept saying, you know, we have to increase that level. But here, they told her she was child prodigy, and all kinds of things. By the time she went away, and she realized... She got a reality check.
• 26:28
  They couldn't even hear her talent because she wasn't at a certain level. So you have to be... Respect the technique and not just the music, like the mom who just wanted her child to play. Exactly. And you have to be at a certain level. Like I said, if you're not playing standard literature at 10, you're probably not going to be very competitive.
• 26:45
  And so that is the killer. So there's a critical age that we need to be catching children. Exactly. And then there's the appreciation of the technique over just playing. That's right. Okay. Right. So give you a case in point. So I think I can remedy that by starting young. Yeah. By starting young and putting those practice hours in, because that's what people don't realize is it goes with the practice. So the older ones out there, three hours a day, an hour and a half in the morning before school. When you say a day, you mean like seven days a week?
• 27:13
  Oh, six days a week. Well, I give them five, I give them two days a week. So like five days a week, they're playing three hours every day. That's correct. Yeah, that's correct. So it's no surprise why I don't play the piano in the orchestra, babes, because I was a struggle to practice.
• 27:29
  You could have never got me up to three hours. No amount of pool parties, no amount of anything would have got me there. I make it a part of school. Right. So you have to be studying some sure. Right. And anyway, it's not me that pushes it. I want to be very clear about that. I never push. Okay. I get the motor to work. Right. In the car. Right. Right. So when they first and they see that here's the carrot, you can play this song. They're like,
• 27:52
  And then the song gets longer, and then the song gets longer, and you want to play it. Until just before I came in to you, two of my kids, they just made the finals for the concerto competition. Amazing. And they feel great. You know what I mean? So it's that sense of making, turning that motor on. And then you get the feedback, and then you go again. Right. Yeah. So now I just say, okay, I think that might be enough now.
• 28:16
  So that's how it's done. But I think people need to realize, though, it needs to start young. Sure. Because if I were to say, Kadeem did do it. I will tell you about another story. If they're just starting first form, for example, and I'd say you have to practice three hours a day. So first form, you're 11, 12. You should be about level 8, grade 8. Okay. Right? Right.
• 28:38
  because seventh grade, eighth grade, if you say to them, you have to practice for three hours a day, they're not going to make it. That's too sudden, that's too abrupt. Because you've come from nothing. Right, you start at four years old, you say, we just do 10 minutes breakfast, 10 minutes dinner, that's it. Then when they turn five,
• 28:57
  15 minutes. Right. You just add on five, ten minutes a year. Right. That is how you get up to three hours a day. Sure. You do not say, we're going to play three hours a day. Nobody would make it. Sure. Right? It's just incremental. Those little increments. Ten minutes a year. Sure. That's it. That's amazing. You said that your kids didn't understand Pato at the pool party, and it made me interested. You said you have global children, and I completely understand that.
• 29:24
  How much time have they lived in Jamaica? Because when they're homeschooling, they're here, right? Do you think that they feel Jamaican or do they just feel like citizens of the world? It starts when they're older. So like my 20 year old.
• 29:38
  He, so now they all have their Jamaican citizenship. Okay. And he went and got his passport. Right. He changed everything. At the time he was 17 at Interlaken. Okay. Of where he was located. He said, I am now from Kingston, Jamaica. So when they list your name on the program, they also list where you're from. Yep. Right. So he has embraced that identity. He now has a place and a country.
• 30:03
  that accepts him. Okay. Right? So he is like, you know, I call him the ambassador for Jamaica because wherever he goes, he says, I'm from Kingston, Jamaica. Oh, he's definitely Jamaican if he's telling everybody wherever he goes. Oh, everybody. Because that's what we do. Absolutely. And then he tries to speak retro, but you know, it's probably as bad as mine. But anyway, he is now, he has a friend and they go to parties and
• 30:27
  So I think he feels Jamaican. The other ones are getting there. Okay. They're trying to socialize dance groups and things like that, but they fully embrace being Jamaican. Okay. Okay, so that's what they- The combination of your cultures. Right, so they do like to-
• 30:44
  flex between the two. Sure. And I get the sense that you wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that period that you recognized in your husband that he needed perhaps a change of environment. That's 100%. That's correct.
• 31:00
  And yet you say that, but you don't have any bitterness to it. Like, can you talk me through it? Because there could be another side, right? It could have happened that although you see and accept your husband needs to be here, I think it's fair to say that, like, his soul needs to be here in order to thrive, you could see that, know it, and accept it, but have like a layer of sort of negativity around it, because I don't get the sense that this is your first choice.
• 31:26
  Yet you don't have any of that. And I just, I'm intrigued as to how or why. Okay, well, if I could take you back in time and show you what he has given to me as a person. Because when we first met,
• 31:42
  I wasn't feeling that confident from a failed marriage. Okay. And he just, the way he loved me, how patient he was with me as I was growing, the way he supported me. When I got some of these opportunities going to countries where he couldn't even speak the language. Sure. He said, sure, no problem. Sure, no problem. Everything was sure, no problem.
• 32:03
  100% supported me and then the kids. When you see that level of dedication towards you and your children, when it's his time, you happily, with a full happy heart, I give this opportunity for him. I mean, it's just, and I think, even if there was no love involved, it's only fair, right? It's only fair. He gave everything
• 32:31
  Everything, which is another reason why I like them calling themselves Jamaican. Because when we were abroad, it's not America that came to my kids. It's a Jamaican man that provided everything they needed. If I said they need a $6,000 instrument, he says, by when do they need it? Yes, I literally get this bomb. Not if they need it. By when, if I say I need to go to, well, Brussels for six months, he says, sure, no problem.
• 32:59
  Okay? That level, you're going to make sure that he has whatever he needs with a happy heart. Not one ounce of regret in it. I mean, because of everything. Sure. You see? It's like, it's magical to feel that, right? Even meeting him briefly, the love that he has for you and the fact that you both are just living in this like,
• 33:23
  reciprocal moment. It's just, it's lovely to witness, to be honest. And what I love is, you know, my dad's Jamaican from Orange Hill, the bush. And a lot of times when you speak of your dad, I think as a black person, people seem confused. So I opened my first restaurant in the UK and a lady who,
• 33:40
  It was just rude and mean because I learned very quickly that feminism in the UK is only for white women. It's not for black women. So the idea that I was there and I owned it didn't sit well with her. You know, I was serving the table and she said, how long have I worked there? I said, oh, from the beginning. She says, is this just what you want to do with your life?
• 33:58
  I was like, I said, yeah, I like waiting tables. So I do that. And her friend happened to know that I owned it. So I come back to the table with her Manhattan. I remember exactly what she was drinking, Manhattan, it was off the menu. And she says, oh, my friends told me that you actually own it. And I embarrassed him in the way I was speaking to you. So I just thought I would apologize. Not I'm apologizing, it's the friend. The friend that wants me. Okay, cool. I said, you know,
• 34:21
  It doesn't bother me, to be honest. So she says, oh, how did you start? I said, you know when white women have dads and they have dreams and their dads give them money? I have a black dad and he gave me some money and this is what I did with it. She said, oh, so you're his favorite? I said, yeah, I'm his favorite. And she's like, oh, well, I'm my dad's favorite too, but I'm just his favorite for existing. I don't have to do anything for it.
• 34:43
  I was like, okay, we're not competing on the whole dad competition thing. But I say that to say there is a lot of people who hold this idea that black men are never there for their children. And then their partners or their wives. And you describe this beautiful experience that completely contradicts all of those stereotypes. Absolutely.
• 35:05
  And I just wondered, again, when you perhaps told your friends or your family that you fell in love with a Jamaican man, did you get any sort of... Oh, yeah. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, my mom, because remember, I have no Jamaican heritage. Sure. And I doubt, I mean, that my family could even find Jamaica on the map. Sure. I'm just telling you. And judging by your calmness, you weren't one of the rebel slaves, babes. Yes.
• 35:29
  Oh, no, no, no. I just said, you know, there's this guy from Jamaica. My mom said, a boy from Jamaica? And I noticed you used the word boy in that man. Sure. Right? The rest is history. Yes. I'll just jump to the end. Yes. He is the pinnacle in our family. I mean, everybody looks up to him. I mean, he has...
• 35:53
  lovely eight bedroom home in Jamaica and has traveled the world. The kids have had the best of everything. I mean, top scholarships. Yeah. You know, and it took money. Sure. And he gave it. So even though like, I'll give you a case in point, the first husband was a physician. Okay. Which should get money. Okay, but what actually trickled down to the kids. Wasn't the same. Wasn't the same. Okay. So here you have this and they've had every
• 36:21
  opportunity. All I have to say is I would like them to go there. Yes, picked up and moved. Most of our moving, the kids got accepted to Juilliard pre-college, great. Okay, Luke got a full scholarship down to American Heritage in Florida, great. There's an opportunity over here, great. And you're just going. And he's financing it all, right?
• 36:40
  So, right. So now it's, oh, Courtney's the greatest thing since like, right, I mean, can't the other husbands be like Courtney? Right, right. So, and see, there's a mentality difference too because the African American men, because of what they've been through, their confidence level is not as high as like the Jamaican men. So some of the things like when Courtney actually went through some experiences that I would call racism, he was sure it wasn't because of his race.
• 37:08
  So because he didn't have that limiting mindset. I said to my dad the other day that if I have to call something race, best believe I have been through every other option that could ever exist. Because you don't want you just don't want to land there in a way that I didn't see, for example, black British people. Right. And I'm not saying that it's it's right or wrong. I'm just saying it's a different lived approach. And I think that that has something to do with growing up here.
• 37:34
  Yeah, absolutely. So my husband has his confidence in a way that my family members do not. Right. He didn't see any of those aggressions as racist. He said, oh, no, I'm sure it's my tone, or maybe I didn't wear the right suit today. Right. He was sure it wasn't something else. Exactly. My own experience, when I say I'm a violinist here, no one questions me. When I say I was my first time with the Chicago Symphony, I have a violin case, and they ask me what am I there for.
• 38:01
  And I said, oh, I'm playing with the symphony. They said, oh, you mean you're handing out the tickets? Okay, it's that way. I said, no, I'm playing with the symphony. Oh, the choir, you're singing, it's that way. I said, no, this is a violin, right? I'm going to sit in the violin section. Now, albeit, where are the black people in the Chicago Symphony, okay? So they didn't have a concept of it.
• 38:19
  Let's use context clues. Yeah, well, no, not until after Barack Obama could they even conceive that there was. Okay, so that's the environment I grew up in. And my husband, you know, he grew up where... You can be anything. You can be anything you want to be. Yes. Right? So he brings that level of confidence to even my children, you know, and my family members. So he might have started off as some boy from Jamaica, but now he is the standard by which everybody compares themselves. Yes. Right? So. Oh, it's so magical. I know. I know.
• 38:49
  Do you think he'll stay here? Oh yes. You do? As long as he wants to stay here, absolutely. He's here for good. He's here for good. He's home, he's home. He's home, I've looked at it very carefully, this year and a half, he is home. Okay. So this is gonna be home for us. And do you feel that with time you will
• 39:10
  continue to warm a bit more to Jamaica or are we just? Yeah, I want to be clear. I love Jamaica. You do? Right. OK. Sometimes the people can be a little harsh. Mm hmm. Right. Yes. Sometimes the reasoning doesn't make any sense. A hundred percent. OK. Yes. Right. But I will just import
• 39:31
  Okay. What I need. Right. Right. So I asked a friend of mine, can they come down? And our kids do a joint concert. Okay. And so I'm going to live at the level where I want to live and bring people along with me and the kids as well. Yes. So I'm going to do my thing here. It's just not going to be as easy as walking down the street. We have to navigate it a little bit differently. Yeah.
• 39:54
  It's funny when you said your eight bedroom house, right? And I love that because again, I think so many people have this idea of how we live in Jamaica. So whenever I go abroad and you tell people you come from Kingston, immediately I can see the BBC news headlines flash across their faces.
• 40:10
  And no, honestly, I know it's true. And I can see them visualize this sort of environment that I don't relate to. Right. And I always I'm really specific with people. And I'm like, there's different Jamaicas. I'm not by any means trying to pretend
• 40:26
  that the Jamaica that I grew up in is everybody's version, but the version that people see who haven't been is very much a singular image. So even when I opened my restaurant, I was adamant that there would be no Bob Marley on the wall. And I love Bob, right? My first restaurant was called Three Little Birds. And I'm in awe of everything that he continues to do for our country.
• 40:46
  However, I didn't want to have Bob Marley on the wall because I felt that everybody who had a Jamaican restaurant, even if they weren't Jamaican, they were Sri Lankan, but they were trying to draw in and get this energy and really kind of almost parasitic, you know. I felt that that's where they started. Their starting point was Bob Marley and then, you know, reggae music a bit wider. So that's all they played.
• 41:10
  It was all red, gold and green, very bright. And it just reflected, I think, just furthered those stereotypes. It was a familiar image that everybody already knew. And I always tell people, I didn't grow up in the ghetto and I didn't grow up on a beach. So I wanted to show a different version of Jamaica.
• 41:28
  And I remember one time even like I went to boarding school for a very short time in England and I remember just talking about like my helper and stuff and people didn't know what the helper was. And I explained, I said, well, you would probably say maid, but to me maid feels really formal and doesn't bring that love of like your family. And like she lives with me and I probably spent more time with my helper than I did with my parents. Mm-hmm.
• 41:47
  So I didn't like that word. So you kind of have to use other words to explain something. And they were confused. Again, remember I'm black, so I'm not supposed to ever have had anyone live in our house to help us. And essentially they think I live in a tree or a hut.
• 42:03
  Sorry, it's the way you explain it. But it's so true. I know, I know. And then you tell them that you had a driver. Like, what, you had a driver? Like, yes, guys, you know, because again, I remember I was on set in the UK and somebody said that somebody was being mean to me because they were middle class. So I said, so hold on, which class am I in? I'm confused. But there was this perception that because I was coming from Jamaica as a black person, I was immediately from a lower class. And therefore, that's why I ought to be treated
• 42:30
  a particular way and I had to explain to these people the life that I live. You cannot imagine that in Jamaica. And so I wondered if you felt that from your children's perspective, from raising them in this environment, do you think that Jamaica has given you a particular lifestyle that you wouldn't have had elsewhere? Absolutely. And how has that contributed to just them, to yourself? Well,
• 43:01
  I remember... So I've said to my kids, you have it hard because you have to please a Jamaican father and an American mother. Sure. Okay? And one of the ways is, like, my 20-year-old is...
• 43:15
  independent financially. Okay. Okay. Well, at 13, I put it in him. I said, at 18, that's it. Okay. You have a skill. You can log online, teach lessons. You can go play. You can, right? And so he is, so he's, today, this morning, he signed his first apartment lease, everything. He's 100% independent. Amazing. Right. So going back to the kids now. Sure. I remember when he was two and he said, well, I said, are you going to clean up your things now, your room?
• 43:45
  And he looked and he said, yeah, the helper can clean it up. Okay. I said, oh. No. Yes.
• 43:53
  I said, she will not be going with you to college. So, you know, so although we were here and our helpers, by the way, I tell them as they interview, you're coming into an American household. And here there is no separate class. Okay. You will not be asked to eat someplace else or at a different time. It will not happen. Or different food. No, because I need my kids to be, as I said, global. And when you go abroad, you have to be able to relate to everyone.
• 44:22
  Equally. Yes. Okay. So when they come into our house, they know that we call them auntie from the beginning. Auntie so-and-so. That respect is there. If I speak, you do. If auntie so-and-so speaks, you do. Right. There's no separation of any kind. When we eat, we all eat. Yes. Okay. And I said, so don't bring anything else into the household. Okay. Because I'm trying to train my kids a certain way. So even though we were in Jamaica, we were in Jamaica.
• 44:45
  This was my little... I trained them. Yep. So when we go out, I remember we went to a beach once and a guy came up and I don't, he didn't have very many teeth left, you know, and...
• 44:56
  we would be considered a bum by all. And my kids were carrying on conversations with them. Oh, hello. And because he was telling us some interesting things about Rastafarianism and my kids were really, and that kind of thing. And that's what I wanted. So even though we're in Jamaica and they get the benefits of having Uncle Horace climb the tree and get them mango and those coconut waters, but they treat them as if they're family members kind of thing.
• 45:24
  In one way, it's good because they have a consciousness of opulence. When they go abroad, they love to say, my helper, my driver. They love to say it because the kid's eyes pop open abroad. They love to say it. And then at the same time, they have an American where they know that all people, we don't do that class thing, that everybody is binary. I think it's a really hard thing to balance, right? In the sense of giving, you have everything. It was because I told, case in point,
• 45:55
  Luke needed $400. He said, I want to go down and do this recording for $400. So Daddy starts to reach into his pocket for $400. I said, oh no.
• 46:07
  I said nothing like that. I said, let me tell you what I did. I got my violin and I was in New York. You're in Central Park. Okay. Right there. You open up your case. You play through your... You start asking. Yeah. You start playing through your box suite. Yes. People will put money in your case. In four days, he had $400. Really?
• 46:28
  shut up and that is the difference between an american mother and that jamaica and that is that balance we've been trying to find when he was three daddy wanted to get him a motorized car before he could ride a bike i was like no no no you know because they like he likes to give give give you know so in this case that's my dad's love language he's like your husband
• 46:44
  Yeah, I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, because we don't want to, you know, Having said that, my dad did a really good job at keeping the balance, right? So you can imagine, you go to Hillel, and they have, like, every amazing car, right? And every so often, my dad would send the driver in a Lada. I don't know if you know what a Lada is, but it's like a Russian war car, and it's just deg-a-deg-a. Like, nobody wants to get picked up in a Lada, right? And every so often, my dad would send the driver in a Lada, and I'd be like, Dad, you open.
• 47:09
  Please I like no and I said could he park like down the road I was walked in and he said like you better be there and you better be there on time Because the day you think that you are too good to get picked up in this car is the day We have a bigger problem and at the time I was just thinking about my street cred, but looking back I
• 47:30
  I'm like 100% I get it. So I completely get it and applaud the vibe. It's just because nobody wants that. I mean, some people clearly don't care. But when you see people and they are condescending and have that tone, it's awful. It's really. It's awful. It's an out of tune note. You know what I mean? It's a musical, yeah. They stick out. Yeah. Right? It's not harmonious. No. Mm-mm. Yes. That's incredible. I have a few quickfire questions for you.
• 48:00
  You mentioned patty earlier, so I'm glad that you've had one. Tasty or juicy? Tasty because it's the first one I had. Really? And you get, you know, you fall in love with it. Right? Curry goat or oxtail? Curry goat. Ooh. Yeah. Do you drink? No. Have you ever had a red stripe? I have not.
• 48:21
  I won't ask you about red stripe or wrong. Sorrow at Christmas time? Absolutely. The more ginger, the better. Yes, I'm all about the ginger. Okay, that's good to know. Yam or cassava? Yam and cassava chips. I just had a bag before I came in.
• 48:39
  Yam. Yes. If you're cooking and then consava chips. Yeah. Amazing. Was there anything actually when you came food wise that you really missed from your travels or from where do you consider home? Actually, that's the thing. Yeah. I just want to say that. Out of all my travels, the place where I felt.
• 49:01
  where I could be 100% myself and I was most appreciated was Paris. Really? And if I were single, that's where I was. That's where you'd be. Okay. Yeah. Artists are, you're, you're, you're the top of the line there. Yeah. I mean, once they know, they know what went into. It's like the Baldwin days, right? Like, that's why James went there and he describes. Once you, first of all, it's valued.
• 49:24
  Okay? And then they appreciate what went into. To get you to where you are. Absolutely. Okay. The arts are just, it's the top of everything they do, from food to symphony, the ballet. I mean, even my son got, when they said he was eight and he had just dropped into that school in Belgium. Sure. And they were like, oh, you know, they were studying about the symphony and Schubert.
• 49:47
  And he said, oh, I play the cello. And the teacher said, well, come play it for us. Yes. And so I took a video. He took it to his class. Sure. And everybody was just glued to it. So you get instant status. Yep. You know, from so. But I really liked it. It's because I could be understood. Fully understood. When I say...
• 50:07
  That passage in Shasta COVID to Symphony No. 5, there's somebody else that gets it. That gets it. You can talk less because people immediately understand. Oh, that's magic. If your life was a postcard, what would the picture look like?
• 50:23
  Me or my family? Whatever. However you would represent yourself in a postcard. It could be with the entire family. It might just be you by yourself. It would be global. It would be global. Yeah. It would be the world. It would have the picture of the earth and the world. In there. Amazing. Thank you so much. You are like everything every mother wants to be is like in front of me. So it's been amazing. And very rarely do you ever speak to people that just understand. Yeah.
• 50:52
  Well, it's a learning curve. I will tell you that. Yeah. I want to make this clear. When my kids came out, that first one almost caught me. And I'm not Luke, but Mariah. Okay. Right? I was not prepared for how different from you they're going to be and how you parent them in full love.
• 51:16
  while being in full disagreement with the choices that they make. Yes. Okay. So that was a learning curve. But I just decided, you know what? I want to be a loving parent. So I had to go in and ask my children, like that very first one, I said,
• 51:34
  So what is it that you see when you go shopping? Like she's totally into fashion. And all I see is scraps. So, you know? And she said, so this is what I do. And I said, and so why would you drink off that whole bottle and not give your sister one drop? I'm just curious. Could you help me understand? She goes, yes, it's mine.
• 51:56
  And I said, but how about her? She said, well, it's her problem. It's not my problem, you know? And I just, so I humbled myself and I asked my children, how can I parent you? And I said, okay, so first you have to understand why they do what they do. Without judgment. It's not a decision you will make. And without judgment. And you say, okay, so this is where we need to get to as human beings. Okay, so I'm gonna try to come up with this pathway to get you there. And of course I want your
• 52:23
  your body. Your input. So how would you like to be disciplined? How would you, what is, you know, and you have to be wise to it. Like for example, for Luke to say, okay, well you're gonna be grounded, you know, that would be like torture for him. For Jada, she'd say for a high level,
• 52:40
  How long? Where's my pocket? You know, that kind of thing. So, I mean, with that, keeping that in mind and helping them understand that it's a together path that I'm dedicated to being with you on. I didn't make the decisions my parents wanted me to make and I wanted her love.
• 52:56
  I'm gonna give that same thing to you. And I give it to them from the time they're two even. Right? And I say, okay, well this is, and they say, well, it's this. And I say, okay, well, let's talk about this. And let's talk about, you know, what's a way we can do this in a healthy fashion. Sure. From what they wanna be to what they wanna do. When we homeschool, I gotta throw this in. Before they get close this. And the afternoon of our homeschool was not parent led.
• 53:20
  Okay. I got to see what they would do if no adult is telling you what to do. Okay. And that's how I found their profession. Sure. Right? Luke would go write music. Jada would go pick up a book. Right. You know, Zara does organize her room. You know, that kind of thing. It tells me what they're gonna do when there's nobody telling you what to do.
• 53:38
  And it's funny that you say that because I saw this thing recently, a famous psychiatrist, and he was saying about parent and child bonding, you need to spend 20 minutes a day not parent-led bonding. Because you telling your child or interrupting all the time is not helping those relationships flourish. And so for you to say a similar thing of letting kids find themselves and really letting them lead. Again, I think we just underestimate children.
• 54:05
  you know, by like part we underestimate. Absolutely. And I never smashed. So I'll take my Jada, for example. She was ready made and she didn't want to listen to me. Okay. I said, okay. There's a little thing though called parent-child though. Sure. So how can we make that relationship work until you're 18? Right. What can we do? If we follow you, it becomes child-led. Sure.
• 54:26
  upside down right so what do you think we can do you know and she says okay well if you want me to do something maybe you could just ask me if I can do this you know and I said and you will do it yes okay excellent can you please okay you see yeah right so I think you need to be humble you need to be be clear what your goal is yes do you want to dominate do you want to be the person that's feared and you're or is your goal to help that
• 54:54
  that adult in a child's body grow to be what they should be. Right? So you have to be humble. You have to listen. Right? And what do you call it? Adjustable. Yeah. Adjustable. Your family is very lucky. Yeah. Very lucky. Yeah.
• 55:12
  but thank you. Yes, you're welcome. And I loved hearing about your restaurant, that whole thing. Yeah. That's so, you know, I'm not sure. There was a teacher, she had been teaching for like 60 years and she was gonna retire. And so they said, okay, give us a rundown. So she said, okay, well, my,
• 55:34
  Black kids, they were good at drama and acting and stuff like that. And she got to my Asian kids, you know, math, and I don't see it. And she got to the white kids, and she only had one sentence. She said they're extremely competitive. Okay. Right? And then when I started teaching, I saw it myself. Okay. Sally just wants to know how she's doing compared to everybody else.
• 55:54
  There's no innate passions or directions. As long as you're above. That's all you care about. Yeah, as long as you're... So I thought about that story when she asked you, oh, I'm my daddy's favorite too. And then it became this big competition thing. Like I give a shit what you and your dad think about. Oh, man. Thank you.