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Coming Down from the Olympic High with Nick Goepper · Sports In America with David Greene

• DAVID GREENE, HOST: Hey everybody, just so you know, on this episode coming up of Sports in America, we are gonna touch on some sensitive subjects and that does include suicide. So we are in the final days of the Winter Games in Milan and what better way to catch up on the Olympics than to speak to a former Olympian herself. Alexi Pappas is here. Alexi, we should probably come clean to our listeners. I have not just followed your career over the years, but we've become pretty great friends and I feel really lucky for that. ALEXI PAPPAS: I feel so lucky, too, and so comfortable with you that I will say that we are not former Olympians. We are always Olympians! But I understand what you meant. DG: Always Olympians. Well, I know I'm glad you corrected me because the world should know that. I wish I could tell you that I fell into that trap just to help everybody. But yeah, an Olympian, always an Olympia. So for those of you who don't know Alexi, she's an author, she is a filmmaker, she's a podcast host, she is many things and also a runner and also an Olympians forever. She set the Greek record in the 10,000 meter run when she was representing Greece at Rio in the Summer Games of 2016\. And Alexi, I guess we like starting our show each week catching up on some of the storylines in sports. And I feel like so many are coming from Milan. I guess I just wonder, as you've been watching these Winter Games play out, any stories that sort of have caught your eye and, in particular, maybe have resonated with you personally. AP: Oh my goodness, well, yeah, I think honestly, it's this overall impression that athletes are unafraid to be themselves and how beautiful it is to see everybody, like whether it's how they're presenting themselves, how they're taking the stage, how they're relating to each other, how they're communicating to us. I feel like athletes really have the voice right now that was often, like, presented to the world through other channels. And I know social media has been around for a long time, but I feel a more direct connection to athletes this year than I've ever felt. And it makes me really happy because that experience is so singular. And so I just think I'm having an overall experience of like, I feel positive, I guess, this year more than I've ever felt before. DG: Because of that connection you feel like you have to these individuals and who they are in their stories? AP: Yeah, because it feels like the ups and downs are not coded through some sort of storytelling that is like a narrative of a story. It just is the story. And you know, I mean, people are talking about like Lindsey Vonn a lot, but can I just say something about it that is so inspiring to me? DG: Yeah. AP: I think there's this idea that to give yourself a chance is sort of this topic that she has brought up in people trying to kind of write her story for her. So in the one moment right here that I think people are assigning a story to someone, I feel like she stepped forward and was like, all I wanted was to give myself the gift of a chance. And she gave herself that. And I was like that's exactly it. That's how it feels to pursue high level sports or to pursue any dream. It's not, you're not doing it to get the result, you're doing it to give yourself the gift of a chance. And I think that is like so inspiring for young people, but also people of all ages doing anything, is to give herself that gift. And it's something you can just give yourself. You can't give yourself the result but you can give yourself a chance. DG: You know, one of the storylines that's really gripped me in these games is Ilia Malinin, the American figure skater, such high expectations. He was favored to win gold, but his individual performance, fell a few times finished eighth, did not metal. And he's been posting since that, and wrote one thing, he said, "On the world's biggest stage, those who appear the strongest may still be fighting invisible battles on the inside. Even your happiest memories can end up tainted by the noise." I wonder what you think he's going through. AP: Yeah, I mean, he put it best, right, that we don't really know. And so I can't say like what his specific, you know, experience was. Only that if he's saying it, it probably is 10 times more powerful and 10 times more difficult than he's even sharing. And it's probably been going on 10 times longer. And that's just because athletes are so good at never giving up, at suspending disbelief, at creating, like, a sterile, safe environment, no matter what, even if something is not right, and most of all, at adapting. And I think some of this mental health conversation is really about like when we adapt without our knowledge, when we adapt to situations that maybe are, that need addressing, right? Or if that pressure is so intense, or whatever is going on, there's something, And I think the real question here is not to try to figure out, like, why does he feel this way? Because that's so personal to him. But to recognize that, it's possible. And that's a hard conversation, because I love the Olympics and I think there's a lot of people that blame the peak itself, like the Games, or the competition, or the big dream for the challenges, when really It's everything else. It's preparation. It's coming up the mountain and down the mountain metaphorically. That's the challenge we need to talk about, not the idea of sport, but everything around it, I think. I think you just hope that you can show up in those moments and not have the buildup of everything affect your performance. And oftentimes, athletes can get away with it on the court, and then they are dealing with a lot of this stuff without us even knowing ever. And so when those things collide and they happen at the same time, that just means we're talking about it, but it doesn't mean that he's the only one. DG: Yeah, I've just been stunned at, I mean, he's definitely not the only one. And thinking about the ways pressure can show up in different forms. I mean I think about Lindsey Vonn deciding to ski on that injury. I think about Ilia and kind of getting the, whatever the pressure caused in that performance, he wasn't able to perform as well as he would like. I think about Nick Goepper, who's the skier who we're gonna hear from a lot in a few minutes, just being put up on a pedestal at such a young age. I mean, who among them or any other athletes you're watching right now, can you relate to the most personally given your experience? AP: Well, my experience happened during a time in the world when it wasn't like a topic we were talking about, right? And so when I was in... DG: Mental health at all. Like, AP: No, I mean, no, yeah. And I remember in Rio, the only place where athletes could be kind of like out of the media and press and be whatever they needed to be was in the dining hall. And I remember you would see, you know, athletes, Phelps, others put up being whoever they really needed to be or whoever they really were, right? And sometimes that's really focused, sometimes it's reflective, sometimes it's a challenging, difficult feeling, but there were no cameras in there. And I spent a lot of time just like reflecting and appreciating that that was the one place that the Games where you could, I mean, I'm sure in your room as well, but in a place where other athletes were when you were just being yourself. And so to answer your question, during my games, it felt like you were meant to step out onto stages, whether it was like camera stages for interviews or performance stages when you were ready. You needed to step out whether you were ready or not, but if you were having a tough time, usually it meant you wanted to kind of disappear and then only come back when you were ready. DG: I mean, you have been such a leading voice in increasing the awareness for mental health among elite athletes and in particular, you know, talking about that mental health should be treated like it's our physical health, that that's really crucial to see and understand. I mean say more about that and, and how, you know, what advice you would give to the athletes coming out of Milan and how they should follow that strategy that you've talked about for some years now. AP: Yeah, I really wish I knew before the Games. I wish that someone had broken down mental health so simply as my eventual psychiatrist, psychologist, my doctor did for me because I only learned it, you know, months and months after the Games. Once I was really, really down, really, really sick. And what he taught me was, you know, I mean, he said, "Hey Lex, You know when you were little and you would go rollerblading and you would fall down and scrape your knee?" And I was like, yeah. And he was like "Well, you have a scrape on your brain right now." Because mine was like a situational depression. It was a temporary feeling that had to do with a build up of lots and lots of difficult changes that were happening, including the end of the Olympics. And he said. "You know, your brain is a body part, just like any other body part. And it can get injured, and it can be healed or treated just like other body parts." And what was so awesome to me was I know how to deal with body parts, right? If I have a pain in my body, if it starts as a little thing in my knee, okay, no training that day, right, if there's something a little bit, like I'm gonna address it right away. If there's a bigger injury, if I break a bone, if I tear a muscle, I know it's gonna take time. I know that not all treatments are going to work for me, that work for my teammate. I know that it might be healing without me being able to see it healing. I know it might hurt for a really long time and still be healing. I know that actions are going to be the way that this heals, including sleep as an action. And so all I'm saying is that this body part metaphor just totally demystified this mental health challenge for me because suddenly I felt helpable. And I felt like I had an image to understand my brain and to give it more grace, right? And then I found help that was uniquely helpful to me, not a one-size-fits-all method because that doesn't work for injuries either. And so it was so helpful, and suddenly I could turn my Olympic focus from performance to health. And I think those are really train tracks that athletes are really good at being on. Like for our bodies, when you're healthy, you're on the train track to fitness. Everything you do points to fitness and performance. The minute you get injured, great athletes get off that train track right away and they're on a health train track. And they are so good at channeling all of their excellence into that. If they're really dialed, right? [MUSIC] AP: Which we are. And I thing with mental health, the minute we feel those challenging feelings are after the games to shift our attention to the decompression. There's two sides to it, right? You go up the mountain and there's another side where you come down. And I think that coming down side is just as, it's the same distance, right. It's a big distance to go down. And I learned that term, the decompression, and it felt a lot better than recovery or something negative. It felt actually natural. Yeah, you got to decompress from this big thing. And if you don't, then you might struggle a bit more like I did because I didn't decompress. I ran 10 miles the next day. Like what's wrong with me? That's wanting to not lose momentum and thinking that the minute you take your foot off the brake, you're gonna lose everything you did for yourself and that a monster's gonna eat you. DG: (Laughs) Yeah, that is not decompressing at all. That's really powerful. And I know a lot of athletes leaving Milan are gonna be sort of facing a lot of the stuff that you're talking about. And we're gonna meet in just a second. Nick Goepper, who's a skier, whose journey has very much been a path that I think you'll relate to in many ways. And he's faced a lot of the hard questions about mental health that you've been really, really good at sort of confronting on your own and becoming a leading voice. Alexi Pappas, you all should check out her great podcast. It's called Mentor Buffet. She is a runner, she's a filmmaker, she's writer and a dear friend of mine. Alexi, thank you for chatting. I really appreciate it. AP: Thank you, so happy for everybody competing and be as kind to yourself as you are hard on yourself. DG: Coming up. our conversation with Olympic freeskier, Nick Gepper. This is Sports in America. Welcome back to our conversation with Olympic free skier, Nick Goepper. [MUSIC] ANNOUNCER: Final American to take his second run will be Nick Goepper. NICK GOEPPER: My life has always, I've been on a different track than most people for my entire life. ANNOUNCER 1: Gonna go visit the shred shed. ANNOUNCER 2: Ok, looks to do the same trick we saw. Yes, Purdue and he gets it. DG: Nick Goepper's experience as a freestyle skier has really run the gamut. As a three-time Olympic medalist, his success speaks for itself. ANNOUNCER: Nick Goepper another silver! That was the run the American was looking for and he comes back and absolutely slays it green across the board. DG: But when the limelight chases the next trend or athlete, what happens to the human being left behind? NG: Oh my god, you won an Olympic medal, you got some money, you're on national TV, like what could possibly be going wrong for you, kid? ANNOUNCER 1: And Nick going down so hard, hitting the lip of the pipe on that left double cork 12 after. ANNOUNCER 2: Medical staff will get to him as quick as possible. We will not speculate on the injury, but you have all been there before. DG: All right. So Milan is Goepper's fourth Olympic games. He debuted in Sochi in 2014\. That was the same year his event slope style was added to the Olympic slate. He won bronze and Sochi, silver in Pyeongchang in 2018 and silver again in Beijing in 2022\. So, remarkably consistent in a high risk, high reward event, at least on the surface, but throughout Goepper struggled with his mental health. He has spoken openly about how the lavish praise that surrounds elite athletes can disappear in a heartbeat between Olympic cycles and also the depression, the suicidal ideation and alcoholism he has battled as a result. For Geper, there's been no made-for-TV comeback moment. Instead, he's defined his career by steadily managing pressure, identity, and sobriety, while staying in a sport that rewards risk and punishes hesitation. Now in recovery and still training at the highest level, Goepper is going for another medal in Milan. This time he's rolling the dice, swapping out his trusty slope style for an event that he has never tried on a stage this big. So I do ski, but I don't ski like you ski. (Laughs) For people out there who don't have like a full picture of what you do. Could you give like the 30 second thumbnail on like the half pipe and then we'll get to the sub style. But yeah, what, what is, how would you describe half pipe? NG: So a half pipe is a shape much like this. It's roots come from surfing and then into skating. And then in the nineties, snowboarders started digging half pipes out of snow with shovels and trying to emulate their skateboarding heroes on snow. And then when, you know, skiers started to look at the snowboard and think, Oh, that looks pretty fun. We can do that on skis. We just got to change our equipment a little bit. So then they like curved up the back of the skis, they could ski forward and backwards and then started doing the half pipe as well. So, half pipe is very traditional and very core to, you know, action sports culture because it's the one like shape, the one thing that like, you know, our grandmas could understand. You know, it's kind of been around for, I don't know, 45 years or so. DG: They've at least seen like surfers and skateboarders and videos doing that kind of stuff, just not on snow. NG: Exactly. Yeah, I mean, it all started like in backyard pools in Southern California in like the 70s and 80s. And then, you know, once the snow guys figured it out, they're like, oh, we can go up a ramp and come down it. We'll call it a quarter pipe and then we'll do the half pipe. And you know and so, so yeah, that's it. Half pipe. DG: Unlike a lot of Olympians, Goepper didn't come from elite ski programs in the Rockies or the Alps. He actually grew up in Indiana, lapping small hills and park features. It informs how he competes, show up, do the work, hit the run, less mystique, more muscle memory. [MUSIC] DG: Well, Indiana, it feels like is very much part of who you are and helped shape your identity. Where is that in inside? Where, where do we see Indiana in who you are? NG: I think, you know, I'm like right on the corner of, yeah, so I'm around the tri-state area where I grew up. Indiana, Ohio, and Kentucky, right on like the western tip of the Appalachian mountains. If you just go a little bit east, then you're, you're an Appalachia. And so I don't know, my like values and the way I grew up are very, are very like kind of like, you know, Appalachia vibe. So, right, like very independent, very resourceful. Really enjoy like kind of building things and doing things myself and I think that's the kind of that like fierce you know independence and you know, self-reliance is very much a trait of you know the people from that part of the country and so you know that's not all of me but I definitely have that streak in me of like yeah I'm just gonna go get this done myself. (Laughs) DG: And don't you, you prefer to ski like in jeans and thrift wear, right? You're not out there buying the most expensive ski clothing that money can buy. NG: Yeah, so a couple of seasons ago, I skied every competition I entered in blue jeans. Like not ski pants that look like jeans, actual blue jeans DG: Can you do that in the Olympics, too, or is that where they draw the line? NG: I don't think you can do that in the Olympics. DG: Okay. But you would if you could. (Laughs) NG: So that season I was just entering a half pipe competition for the first time on kind of a high level. And I knew I wasn't gonna be, I probably wasn't going to be winning. So I had a little more fun with my season. And the jeans thing was important to me because in a way it paid tribute to my roots and, you know, the kind of people that I grew up around back in Indiana. I'd say that's where really the Indiana shines through is kind of through that season and that expression. In Indiana, like skiing, there's not like a skiing lifestyle or culture. It's like, it's like the bowling alley. It's, like, something you do every once in a while with your friends on a Saturday night to like amuse yourself. It's not like "Oh i i'm a skier," like you know that that doesn't really exist in indiana at least. DG: As a teenager, Goepper brought the tricks he honed in rural Indiana skate parks to a ski academy in Oregon, pushing into pro competition and excelling at big events like the X Games. Then at age 19, he qualified for the inaugural slope style competition at the 2014 Olympics in Sochi. BROADCASTER: This morning, a clean sweep for Team USA. Joss Christensen, Gus Kenworthy, and Nick Goepper taking goal. DG: The new event was a wild success for the American men who would sweep the podium. His teammates, Joss Christensen and Gus Kenworthy won gold and silver, respectively, and Goepper took home the bronze. For better and worse, this performance put Goepper on the map. Could we kind of start in 2014 in Sochi? I mean, that's certainly an event and a moment on that medals podium that I think so many of us remember. You with two teammates celebrating what seemed to all of us like such a high point for you guys for kind of adventure sports. What did it feel like? What do you remember from that podium and what you were feeling? NG: That moment that you're talking about is the American podium sweep, one, two, and three, Joss, Gus, and myself. And it was a really big deal because we hadn't swept the podium in an event since 2002 or something. And so none of us were thinking about that, or frankly, I even cared about it, but that moment made it much more special for all of us, and I think led to a lot of cool opportunities. DG: Yeah, I really, I remember that moment. I mean, there was something so patriotic about it, just seeing the American sweep. I mean that there's incredible power in that. Well then, so you said it led to opportunities. I mean you, the three of you went on kind of a social media thing like in New York and elsewhere. I mean it, did it kind of feel like the adrenaline was still going and you were having at least some fun in the weeks after? NG: Yeah, hell yeah. [MUSIC] NG: Definitely a whirlwind. We went straight to New York City after that to do, you know, some media. We did the Letterman show. That was my second time doing it that year. I did it a few months prior. DAVID LETTERMAN: Tell us what exactly that means. Define slope style skiing. What are we talking about? NICK GOEPPER IN INTERVIEW: Okay, so slope style skiing is a brand new sport in the Sochi Winter Olympics, and it's a lot like skateboarding. It's a big long run, and you've got a series of obstacles ranging from jumps... NG: You know, autograph signings and various morning shows. And like, you know the thing was is we all, we did it all as a unit, which was interesting because up until that point, and frankly from that point on, competing in an individual sport is exactly that, individual. And so when you win something, you know a lot of us are by nature like kind of selfish and we want the glory and the accolades for us, or for ourselves. And so that whole few weeks was really interesting because, like, you had to share the limelight. (Laughs) And for me, personally, it was particularly hard because I was, like, in the club, but the lowest rung on it. I'm like the third place guy in this party. And even though we were doing everything as a group, I still had to acknowledge that I'm like, you know, the bottom rung of this group, this like little.... DG: Your medal is not gold and it's not silver, it's something different. NG: Yeah, this is like kind of boy band troupe that we were at the time, you know, and that's like a super hyper vision of my, you know, just my competitive self. The ultimately extremely grateful for the experience and it led to some incredible opportunities but I just remember being like, you know, we're doing like a shoot for Rolling Stone and you know and like all three of us are like posing for the camera. And the photographer's like, "Oh, actually, Nick, could you just go like two steps back? Because you're the- " DG: Because you're the bronze guy? NG: "You're the bronze guy so could you just like move to the back and then we'll put like, you know The other two guys up front" and I'm just like, oh dude. But dude, we're in Rolling Stone. We were in the in the magazine DG: As all of that attention began to slow down, Nick says in the quiet rooms of his parents' house at age 19, depression started to set in before he could even name it. So when did things start to take a negative turn? When did you start feeling like this is not fun boy band stuff anymore? NG: That spring was difficult just because when all the, you know, Olympic hype died down and you know the, the public moved on to like the Super Bowl and then golf and then like whatever else is in the media. You know, and the requests stop coming. Then normality sets in and you feel human again. And that was not easy to go through as a 19 year old. And so my solution was to just go skiing more. Just like fill my time with skiing. And this thing that I love, or, you know, this thing that I'm supposed to love, and just go do it more. Because I think a lot of people who work a lot can relate that like when you're bored or don't have things going on, what do you do you just work more and just fill... DG: When your mind starts, starts turning. So to avoid that, you just stay busy and do the job. Was there a moment that you can look back on where you kind of realized that you needed help, that this was not just kind of being bummed out, that this is something that was more serious? [MUSIC] NG: Yeah. So I went home after that and to my parents' house in Indiana and I was 19, yeah, 19, I think. And I just... actually, it's like kind of nice talking about this now, but... DG: I don't want to push too hard, only what you're comfortable with but yeah. NG: No, no, it's good. No, I just like went, it was two weeks of just like going to bed and staying in bed, like all day, like not doing anything. Just not wanting to do anything. And you know it's, as weird as it is as it sounds like coming off this amazing season you know I felt insecure about my future, about what my purpose was, you know, kind of the meaning behind what I was doing, like, there was a lot that I didn't understand, and I think that led to some, you know, depressive feelings. I mean, my, my life has always, I've been on a different track than most people for my entire life. Like, I would say most typical kids in my situation growing up are part of a formula like go to college or you go to high school and then you go to college and then find a job in the system. Or a trade or something and you're surrounded by a bunch of people who are kind of doing a similar thing. So you have like a lot of people to relate to. And my life has always been a little bit different. I've always been like, part of the reason why I love it is it is different, but also it sometimes makes it difficult to relate my experiences to people. You know, as I think many athletes are entertainers can understand. DG: Without the right tools, the depression deepened for Goepper and thoughts of suicide were soon to follow. He said that for him, the ideation wasn't particularly theatrical. He just stopped wanting to live. I only ask because I know you've talked about this some before, but it sounds like you reached a point where you even thought about taking your own life, which I'm so sorry that you got there, but is there anything you wanna share or remember that might help people who, you know, are sort of going in that kind of direction themselves? NG: Yeah, so I mean, I think it's a much more common than you might think. You know, maybe it's not like you want to put a gun in your mouth, but maybe you just don't want to wake up. You just want to go to sleep and like not wake up. Not get up in the morning or just stay in bed all day. I mean, there's like kind of like these little inches and steps that you kind of take on like a slippery slope of mental health that can get you closer and closer and closer to that thought process. And, you know, in my brain, that's kind of how, to back up, I've always found the most inspiration and just relating to other people's experiences. So I'm just, I'll just share mine. So, when I try a trick, you know, I don't just go and do it. I try to baby step it like, all right, I'm going to do a bunch of one eighties and a bunch of three sixties and I'm much of five forties and much of seven twenties before I finally like do the big trick, you know. And in terms of suicidal thoughts and ideology in that place of, you know, not being fulfilled and asking what's my purpose and stuff, like that's how I would rationalize things. I'd be like, all right, well, I don't want to die, but I don't want to wake up. I just want to stay in bed all day. And then after you stay in bad for two weeks, you're like, well, [EXPLETIVE] this really sucks. Maybe I do you want to die cause staying in bed is really terrible. And then you just start to kinda go down that rabbit hole and then drugs and alcohol, that's a whole other fuel that you don't wanna throw on that fire because it'll just blow it up and multiply it. And so I'd say everyone has a different journey, but it's still something that I deal with to this day. Because once you have a human experience, no matter what that is, you know that you're capable of having that human experience and it's positive and it can be positive and negative. Like if you know, that you can take a girl on the greatest date of her entire life and romance her, you're like, cool, I can do that again. But if you get to a place where you want to kill yourself, you know that your brain can take you there again because you've been there before. And that's probably the scariest part is knowing that you're capable of those thoughts and getting to that place. And so it's just a constant, like, one day at a time doing the next right thing, one foot in front of the other. That's what I taught myself when I'm feeling low. DG: Wow, that's that's an amazingly honest and, and, I hope helpful kind of thing to remember it because I could see people going through that being afraid when they start going down the road, but like owning what you just said and just recognizing like my, my mind has been here before it might go there again, but it doesn't mean that, you know, things need to, to take a turn is just super powerful. You're listening to Sports in America and we're going to be right back with more from Nick Goepper. All right, let's get right back to our conversation with Olympic free skier, Nick Gepper. One of the flash points in Nick's searching for answers came less than a year from his success in Sochi when he was arrested for vandalizing cars in Indiana and he was charged with criminal mischief in December 2014\. He says he had suffered an anxiety attack. You know, it's interesting, when I read about some of your low points back then. The incident when you turned yourself into the authorities... NG: Yeah. DG: After throwing some stuff at cars like it just struck me that even though you were suffering, like there was an awareness in there, like, there was an awareness of like, this is not good. I'm doing things that I can't control, which is incredibly impressive, but that must've been just a conflict going on in inside. NG: Yeah, it was a cry for help. [MUSIC] NG: And, you know, in a way, like I knew what I was doing. I knew, I knew that, I knew, you now, it just, you know everyone's experiences is different. A lot of times, like sometimes I feel like I have this, it's an imposter syndrome. So, some people, endure incredible negative circumstances successfully or maybe unsuccessfully and do fall into a depressive state and struggle with their mental health. Far worse than what I was going through. Oh my God, you won an Olympic medal. You got some money. You're on national TV like what could possibly be going wrong for you, kid? And so a lot of times I'd be like, "Dude, I don't deserve to feel this way." You know, I don't deserve to feel this way because I, no one died. Like I didn't cause any sort of carnage like that. Like my, you know, like my family loves me. Like I don't have a parent that's abusing me. You know there are far, far worse circumstances that I've, you know, learned that I was never a part of. So my life on paper looks amazing. And so, you know, you get this imposter syndrome, like I don't deserve to feel this way. So I'm gonna self-sabotage because I need to like feel, I need to like justify these feelings, you know? That's when the negative loop really starts, is you're like, you what, like my life's really great and I feel depressed and feel really bad. I don't deserve to feel this way. So I'm really going to make it bad. So then I can say, yes, I told you! (Laughs) You know, there's like this really great saying and like recovery circles. "I'll show you, I'll hurt me," and that's not a good, not good way to solve problems. So. DG: When Goepper felt he had reached bottom, a light appeared for him in recovery. By late 2015, with encouragement from his parents, Goepper entered a rehab facility in Texas for about two months. He has said that being in treatment, talking with others facing similar struggles and reconnecting with core values helped him shift his mindset and regain clarity about his life and his sport. There, he met people who couldn't care less about his glamorous past, and could speak from a shared spiral of addiction to help free him from vicious cycles. What was the recovery like? What was rehab like and what do you remember about these kind of things? NG: Amazing! DG: Yeah? NG: You could write a Hollywood movie going to any sort of recovery meeting any AA meeting anything like I think athletes and artists and like science like people who have achieved great things are impressive equally impressive are recovering alcoholics. It is incredible like the ways that people turn their lives around and achieve sobriety and completely change who they are using, you know, a formula of their choice, a really popular one in America is AA, but, like, and across the world. But the biggest thing for me is relatability. If I can relate to someone else's experience, I can find inspiration and hope in that. And, like, whether they're trying to inspire me, or they're simply just talking, and I can say, "Oh my god, I'm not the only one." That person fought the same way as me, or did the same thing as me. Or, but now look at them, you know? They've got, things are going great for them. So it's possible. It's possible, so. DG: You know, it's so interesting that your low came so quickly after the high. I mean, how do you describe the relationship between the two? Like, what was it about the high of Sochi and winning and having all of that, you know, just positive feedback and being a star? Like, is there a lesson we can learn about the danger of that and how quickly it could lead to taking you to the bottom? NG: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of twofold because in a way, you're putting all your eggs in a basket to really go after something, which sometimes that involves not planning for afterwards, (Laughs) you know, you like, I'm not... DG: Just get here, just get here and win. NG: Yeah, exactly so just get hit this target, put everything into this bullseye, and like don't worry what's on the other side. And you know, that does, I think that in a way can give you access to more energy and more focus if you do put all your eggs in one basket and burn the boats, figuratively speaking. But there's something to be said for, you know experience and planning for, you know the next thing and because if you know what you're doing, then there's no anxiety. If you don't know what's you're doing, then there's anxiety and you know, that can lead to an unstable foundation. DG: So is that your advice to, you know, fellow Olympians going into, you know these next Olympics? I mean, just think about what comes afterwards, don't just focus on, on this one thing. NG: I don't know, (Laughs). Because, you know, there's part of me, there is part of me that is like that still lives in me. That is put it all on the line and go out there to win, like no matter what, you know. There's also part of me that has had these human experiences and knows that the more connected you are to friends and family and the more of a plan that you can establish beforehand, you know, the less likely you might fall to these lows. DG: Well, it makes me wonder, is there more that you think coaches, the governing body of the sports or fellow athletes could have done for you and can do today to create a culture where you have those connections and you could speak about more openly about mental health stuff. NG: Yeah. So the US, I gotta give credit to the US ski team because in the last 15 years, they've really slowly but surely emphasized mental health resources and support within their organization. So I speak to someone that's employed by the Olympic Committee slash ski team very routinely. And it's just talked about more. It's emphasized more in the competitive space. Much of the thing is super important. Just the fact that we have access to these resources is great. But I don't know, I think just, I think caring about people is really, really important. So I think it's equally as beneficial to the organization, but also the athletes to try to establish meaningful relationships with the people that you're around. And that can go a long way. [MUSIC] DG: When he was training for Milan, Goepper was excited to put the tools he's gained on this journey to good use. He put safeguards in place this time around. He's got a support network to help insulate him from the emotional rollercoaster. All right, so these Olympics, how are you approaching them, particularly like how are staying grounded and like, I don't know, mitigating against falling into some of the post-Olympic traps that you've hit before? NG: Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm still periodically active in my recovery. So, I go to meetings here and there, and just attaching myself to a support group before the season really gets going. My family, my girlfriend, kind of like a recovery support network, just being connected with that, I think is super important. But also just finding the joy in it, I think, is probably gonna be the most important thing for me. Like, I kinda burnt out this spring, I'm not gonna lie. Like, went really hard from like March till, like the end of, like mid-July, third week of July, on the training, and I just kind of hit a wall. And so, you know, it's really hard for me to take time off. It always has been. Like, I feel like if I'm not working, I'm getting behind. If I'm not working, I'm behind. It's like that Kobe Bryant mentality. And you know I've had like a lot of success throughout my career I think because of that. But also like there's been moments when, you know. I need to step off the gas and like really find the joy in this and really do it for the right reasons. And so I think this is probably gonna be a very, one of my most important years. And I'm taking a little bit of time off right now just to kind of try to reinvigorate some of that childlike love for it come fall. DG: You say do it for the right reasons, what are those reasons? NG: Because I love it. I mean, it's hard to not get wrapped up in money or like this is all I know or some of those existential things because I think at the at the core of it the reason that I'm successful in this in the first place is for the exact same reason, the same exact motives that I have when I was 14 years old. Which was I want to go outside and learn a new trick every day because I love doing this activity. You know, there's a market and a fan base large enough that I was able to make a career out of it. Like, wow, that's pretty cool. I'm so lucky. But, you know, like, I really want to fall back on that, not fall back, but really strive forward with that attitude of like, all right, why are we doing this? Is this like, are we doing this for the reasons that you started doing in the first place? And yeah, that's kinda my goal is to get back to that. DG: You said one of the pitfalls of Sochi was not having a plan for afterwards. Do you have a plan post these Olympics? NG: So I'll probably. I'll compete next year, so I don't know. To be honest with you, I don't have, I'm not gonna enroll in college in the spring semester starting April. I don't have that kind of plan. But, I have a lot more tools in my tool belt now that I did when I was 19, in terms of grappling with the highs and the lows and continuing to live a healthy and fruitful life. DG: How much do you want like being a voice and an advocate for for mental health awareness to be part of kind of the years ahead? Is that something you enjoy doing and are inspired by? NG: I think it helps me. It helps me for sure. I don't mind it. Like I wouldn't, I don't know if I would consider myself like the poster child, but I like talking about it. It helps me to talk about it and if I can give any inspiration or hope to people who are listening, then I love talking about. DG: Are your parents coming to Italy? Your family? NG: Yes they are. DG: That is awesome to know. Well I'm sure everyone there will continue to be rooting for you and so will I. And best of luck in these Olympics and thanks for being so open and honest and telling your story. I feel like it can help a lot of people. NG: I hope so, thank you David, I appreciate it. DG: Next time here on Sports in America, in the last few months, you may have come across a little show called Heated Rivalry. [MUSIC] ANNOUNCER: Canada-Russia final showcasing the two most talked-about prospects in the world, Canada's Shane Hollander and Russia's Ilya Rosenov. DG: The show is fun, but it's also raised a bigger question. How welcoming is the NHL to LGBTQ athletes? After all, there are not and have never been any openly gay men in the league. HARRISON BROWNE: Instinct-wise, there are many players in the closet that do not feel safe to come out, do not appeal, like they would be able to have a career within hockey. DG: In our next episode, we sit down with Harrison Brown, an actor in the show, Heated Rivalry, and the first person ever to come out as trans in professional hockey. HB: It was my escape until it turned into my cage. DG: That's coming up next time on Sports in America. This is Sports in America. I'm your host, David Greene. Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa. Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our talent booker is Brit Kahn. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling. Sports in American is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find Sports in America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, the iHeartRadio app, wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and just a quick reminder, new podcast episodes of the show are dropping every Thursday now, so that is when you can expect your feed to update. And we also wanna hear from you. How about you drop us a line? You can write us at sportsinamerica@whyy.org. That's sportsinamerica@whhyy.org. Thanks everybody, we'll see you next time for more Sports in America.