Latest / GAIN Momentum / Touchless Wellness as a Technology Category for All Hotels | with Tammy Pahel
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- GAIN Momentum episode #64: Touchless Wellness as a Technology Category for All Hotels | with Tammy Pahel === Adam Mogelonsky: Welcome to the GAIN Momentum podcast, focusing on timeless lessons from senior leaders in hospitality, travel, food service, and technology. I'm joined today with Tammy Pahel, vice president of spa and wellness at the Carillon Miami Wellness Resort. Tammy, how are you? Tammy Pahel: I'm doing wonderful. I'm in Miami. It's 82 degrees. It doesn't get better. And a lot of sunshine. So it doesn't get better than that. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, yeah, Miami is a very special, special place for the country, the United States and the world. So let's start off here, Tammy, to give everyone a background on your career to date, uh, the hotel, the Carillon, uh, what you're passionate about, as well as your involvement with Forbes Travel and the Global Wellness Institute. Tammy Pahel: Of course, I'm passionate about wellness, but I do [00:01:00] love what I really love to do is to walk into a property, build a property. If I walk into a property, turn it around, make, make it be financially sustainable. And then the other thing is building new, new properties, new spas, fitness, wellness centers. That's a lot of fun. I mean, you get to stand back and say, wow, look what I did. Adam Mogelonsky: Sense of, uh, self actualization, sense of achievement. It's the highest, the highest part of what it means to be a human. And you're living the dream. So the Carillon itself, uh, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but it first opened in 1956, Tammy Pahel: 1958, 1958, it opened the Central Tower. Adam Mogelonsky: Uh huh. Tammy Pahel: pool, but you see today is the strand, uh, restaurant and our lobby. That was [00:02:00] it. Adam Mogelonsky: Wow. And, uh, could you walk us through the history and bring us up to date on, how it's transformed since then, how it's evolved when you got involved in what you've accomplished with the property? Tammy Pahel: that's a seven year long story, but, but, um, anyways, you know, of course it was opened in 2008 as a Canyon ranch and by 2000, really 2013, there was definitely, we all knew in the world, in the United States that, you know, Things were changing, shifting, people were losing homes, nothing was going well financially for the world. so in 2015, Z Capital purchased Canyon Ranch and, um, they took it over and I didn't arrive on the scene until 2000, May of 2018. [00:03:00] And, um, I have to say it's one of my favorite projects that I've done in my career. The best seven years of my life, and it's been fun. It's been a Really a game changer for me. I know everything that I was doing prior to arriving there was prepping me for what I would do there. So I'm very grateful for my past and the, all the wonderful places I've been at. Um, like I said, I opened 13 properties, uh, spas, wellness, fitness centers, membership centers. salons, recreation, so I've done it all but I have to say, you know, Carillon is a very special place to me and always will be. Adam Mogelonsky: You know, it's an interesting. Point, uh, interesting aside, when you mentioned how your whole career, your whole life has led to this, and I [00:04:00] think that's an important lesson for everyone, not just hoteliers, but everyone is just being mindful of how your actions. Can help yourself, your future self, and how that can give you the stamina and the passion to get through things that maybe are seen as repetitive, administrative, whatever is, is having that vision and understanding and taking a step back to really see how far you've come and what you've accomplished to help you give yourself meaning to keep going. pushing forward. Tammy Pahel: I think every place that you're, wherever your journey's taking you, every place that you stop along the way, I can look back and reflect on every, every skill, every talent that was given to me at that location. And I just think it's interesting that, it's easy to [00:05:00] look back and see how you're here today. But while you're going through that journey, it's not comfortable and it's not easy. And sometimes it's not fun. And sometimes you think, what am I doing? But when I arrived at Carillon, that's when I looked back and I said, Oh my God, this is. Prep me for everything I was going to do here and everything that I could accomplish when it came to wellness all under one roof, you know, because I've done pieces and parts of wellness. It's, you know, integrative and functional medicine. I, launched that in South Carolina. One of the spas that we had was North, uh, North Beach Plantation in Myrtle Beach or North Myrtle Beach. That was my first working with someone from integrative and functional medicine. That was in 2008. So it's funny. Now I'm, you know, I bring that to Carolina. [00:06:00] So it's just interesting when you look back at your life it's been a heck of a journey. I've lived in California, Arizona, Las Vegas, um, New York, Pennsylvania, Carol, the South Carolina and Florida, Texas. So I've lived a lot of places to achieve what I was doing, but. they were all good lessons for my life, Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. You know, the, the whole idea of hindsight is 2020, right? And we often forget the moment to moment we look at some big project that moment to moment, you're like, Oh my God, what, what am I building here? What am I doing? And then you look back and you've actually done something meaningful. And that's a challenge that. We faced since the dawn of civilization, and it's really comes down to innovators creating something new in the blood, sweat and tears to make that happen. Tammy Pahel: you know, for sure. Adam Mogelonsky: So there's another aspect to this innovation and this whole [00:07:00] idea of place and the sense of place. And one area that you've helped built with your team at the Carillon is this whole idea of. touchless wellness and touchless wellness circuits. Could you describe that initiative, uh, what it is, how it came about and how it's really pushing the envelope for what defines wellness? Tammy Pahel: Yeah. Um, I'll start with where it all really happened, which was at the Hotel and Spa Forum in Paris at the Four Seasons. There's an event and it still goes on today, but in 2018 was my first time to go there. But 2019, it was a totally different vibe. I looked around and I saw more technology that I've never seen or experienced. And I started talking to the people and it was like that moment in your life where you see very clearly what's going to happen next and I [00:08:00] knew. wellness technology would be the next revenue generator for spas, because I've been in the spa industry since, uh, 1989 and nothing had changed. And now we're in, you know, 2019, it's May and I meet seven companies and it just so happened the timing was perfect on it because what would happen is they were trying to break into the U. S. They needed a platform, so I said to them, okay, you know, join me at the Carillon and we'll start a, I called it touchless wellness experiences or technology. And so I was supposed to launch it in March of 2020. Of course, that wasn't going to work. Luckily I was in Florida, so we reopened in July and then we launched it. At the time, my [00:09:00] lobby was full of 20, 30 and 40 year old people getting massages, facials, body treatments. They didn't, they, I'm not saying they didn't care about COVID. I don't think, you know, to be honest, lots of people died. I don't want to be disrespectful and I don't think Florida was trying to be disrespectful to what was really going on. They were trying to provide jobs and. have incomes. And so we went back to work early. We were open on the weekends and we were busy. So my lobby was full of 20 to 40 year old, the 50, year old. Those were the people that I could talk into trying touchless wellness experiences because they were about Building a healthy immune system. They were around, they were, the technology was wrapped around helping people sleep better. [00:10:00] Uh, detox muscle recovery. These were the things that people were complaining about at the time. Stress, you know, we had technology that would help people de stress. So that 50, 60 and 70 year old. Trying the wellness, uh, technology. I don't think we would have launched it as well as we did had it not been the time. The timing was perfect. People were desperate for wellness. They were willing to do whatever they had to do to be well. And really the main focus, not the only focus, but the main focus was having a healthy immune system. So at the Carillon, we launched seven different technologies and, uh, They were busy. I mean, for just being open on weekends until Thanksgiving, we did 48, 000 in revenue and there's no payroll tied to that.[00:11:00] So the ROI for any of the technology that I had at the time you know, we wouldn't pay for it, but close to it, um, at the time what I had. So we really, 48, 000 fell to the bottom line and believe it or not that year, our spot actually made a profit of a half a million dollars. And that's unheard of. But again, I'm telling you, the young person was coming to us. They wanted to have they wanted to feel good. People just wanted to feel good and they were going to do what they had to do to feel good. So I think that's why technology became Very big part of people's lives. And we, we started selling it owl cart and then we would sell it in a pack of 10. And actually Adam, the last time you visited, you told me, Tammy, you should be selling it for three and six and nine and [00:12:00] 12 sessions. So we went and did that because I never thought of it. I mean, we were, I was still living in the back in 2020 when people were buying packs of 10 because. They were probably doing that like three or four times a week. So, um, you know, I think that technology will continue today. We have 24 partners, even we even have wellness partners in our, in our rooms, in our hotel. So technology has continued to grow from 2020 and it's not going to stop. Adam Mogelonsky: technology only really moves in one direction, right? And a lot of times there's compounding within that in terms of the advancements of specific categories. So, 2018, you're in Paris at the, uh, Forum Hotel and Spa at the Four Seasons, uh, Georges, Georges Cinq. Uh, enjoying the best French [00:13:00] macaron in the world. And you, you have this epiphany about a paradigm shift happening. Only you're the trend center and there still are, 999 people out of a thousand that still believe that wellness equals spa, right? Uh, yeah. And within that, you're seeing this. Shift, you know, it's going to happen. You don't know when, because no one knew the pandemic was going to happen. And you have to get buy in to buy these machines that are very expensive. whether they're on a CapEx model or they're on a subscription model, they're very expensive. So you have to get buy in from ownership and other executives to put these machines in your treatment rooms to then. To then sell the dream and say, you know, if you build it, they will come. How did you go about convincing people about the coming trend [00:14:00] of wellness, touchless wellness, before it was mainstream news in the New York Times? Tammy Pahel: I don't think I really had to work hard to talk people into it. I think, you know, it was such a vulnerable time in the world and people were very, very, very focused on their health. All at once. I always tell people when I arrived at Carillon, even though we were a wellness resort in 2018. I think the mind of wellness wasn't as prevalent as today. I think in 2018, people would come to Carolyn, I'm not saying they weren't coming for some wellness, but a lot of people would thought in 2018 wellness was laying on the beach and drinking, you know, 10 pina coladas, you know, that that's what they thought, you know, enjoying their life was wellness and not to say enjoying your life. It [00:15:00] isn't wellness because it is part of wellness, but, you know, I think the shift came in 2020. And so people realize, Oh my God, I've got to take care of myself. I have to focus on what I eat. I have to focus on my immune system. I have to focus on, you know, how do I get exercise? You know, I bought a Peloton because. we had fitness classes. We have 250 fitness classes and always have. But during that time, what we did, uh, Roxanne and I, who's the sales and marketing director, we started filming our instructors in a private studio, and then we would loop that into the TVs. So our residents would be able to enjoy their favorite or favorites. and fitness, you know, because they still wanted to exercise. They still want it because most of the people that live at the [00:16:00] carillon, I know it sounds crazy, but Most of them do four classes in a day and that's normal for them. So, and the average age is 60 and over. Now we add after the pandemic, we did get a lot of younger families, the 40 some with young kids, uh, moving in to the Carillon, but you know, when I first arrived, it was definitely an older clientele and now it's. Definitely in the last couple of years, you just see more and more young people moving in with young families. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, and, um, you know, from the rooms I've, I've stayed in, you know, they're, they're all suite style. So there, there's a lot of space for in room exercise. So, yeah. Um, you mentioned earlier, you know, wellness being just sitting on a beach and drinking 10 pina coladas, uh, that, that raises a point that wellness itself is a very broad term, you know, there's, [00:17:00] uh, sitting on a bench and mindfully watching birds go by is a form of wellness, right? And then you, then you have all the way to, wellness being something to define these new epigenetic tests for which there's seems like a hundred different ones now, all for thousands of dollars. it's all encompassing. And within that, you have to make a decision about within this. subcategory of touchless wellness, what equipment to purchase and what specific modalities are you going to touch upon, whether that is photobiomodulation or beats, uh, for neural entrainment. How do you go about deciding which specific aspects of touchless wellness to decide? And then from there, moving from category to specific vendor to partner with. Tammy Pahel: Well, you know, we have, because Carolina is now known for touchless wellness [00:18:00] and that the newest and the more trendy wellness technology we have, you know, Marriott comes to us, Hilton comes to us, lots of GMs come to us looking to experience something and figure out just what you said, but I'll, I guess my best example is. a wonderful GM from, uh, the Blue Mountain area and outside of Toronto. He has, I think, 27 ski resorts. So him and his wife came down and they looked at the muscle recovery circuit. And why they did was interesting to hear why he would choose that, because we have Sleep wellness. We have a detox. We have the muscle recovery. We have, the stressing mental health, uh, couples wellness. So we've got a lot of different circuits. So him and his wife tried muscle, the muscle recovery. Both are avid skiers. [00:19:00] And, uh, when we sat down, he said, you know, we're, I can't believe. the experience. And I slept the best. In fact, him and his wife were texting me in the morning saying I can't believe how I feel. But anyways, he said the reason he was going to go with that is because he wanted to increase the skiers. Opportunities ski more over a long weekend, right? Because he said, if they get there Friday, they might do Friday afternoon into Friday night ski, maybe a couple hours, just get out on the slopes. And then Saturday would be the big day. And he said, I'm just trying to get them to go another day. But when you're an executive or you're working in an office and you're not really You know, exercising every day and you get on the ski slopes, that's a workout. and then you say, Oh my [00:20:00] God, I can't go again. So he was adding it to increase revenue. In skiing, where I think it's brilliant because again, there is no payroll to it. And most of his, first of all, Blue Mountains, a very big ski resort. And it's, you know, he's got sister properties all in that area. So for him, it made so much sense because. You know, he could do it inexpensively. Like I charged 99, he might charge. 59 or 69 because he has such great volume, but you know, he looked at his, I'm going to make money on touchless wellness technology, but I'm also going to increase my revenue in with my skiers because if I can get them to do the muscle recovery, when they wake up the next day, they're going to feel as good as I feel right now.[00:21:00] And I'm ready to go, you know? So I think you have to look at the area. I don't think. Listen, I sit on, uh, almost 1. 5 million worth of technology. I don't think any resort is going to sit on that kind of technology, but I do think we're a good example for you to try different circuits or different technology to, to figure out what's really going to work for your resort. Because what works. You know, what maybe works for the ski resort, maybe wouldn't be the best one, like, uh, you know, in, um, Sedona, uh, there's a, a famous, hotel that is a wellness known for wellness. And I happen to be on the board with them at, uh, Forbes advisory, and we were talking about what would they put there? So people are coming there to de stress. So de stressing or mental [00:22:00] wellness. is a better topic for them. I'm not saying muscle recovery wouldn't work there. I'm saying if I could only pick because most of our circuits either have four or five pieces to it. If I only could add one circuit, I would probably, being in Sedona, I would probably do the distressing, de stressing, or the detoxifying circuit, because I think that model would work for them. But I think everybody's different. I don't think, I don't think technology is a one size fits all for every property. I think we're just a platform for people to come and experience it and figure out what's going to work for them. Adam Mogelonsky: You know, it's, it's, it's funny. I often joke, some people and I say that wellness is a form of time travel because a lot of these muscle recovery circuits, for instance, they allow you to maximize your time. Not to say that we're slowing down the clock or actually going back in [00:23:00] time, but by getting, by being more cognitively aware, by being more, having more vitality at every single moment. Of those 24 hours that we're all given, it allows you to maximize every minute of time that you have and therefore it is a form of time travel because you're actually gaining time and a lot of time, a lot of, there's a lot of evidence coming out that people that are in really good shape, not necessarily they're over exercising, but they're in good shape and they're of good cognitive ability. They actually need less time to sleep on average than, than other people. You know, six and a half hours versus seven and a half, you just gained an hour, an hour each day. Tammy Pahel: Well one thing I will say too for us, even if I didn't have all the circuits I had or the platforms that I have with all the technology, I definitely would have muscle recovery. In Miami, even though it's known for a [00:24:00] party town, because we're wellness people are coming to us and generally, not always, but generally they're pretty fit. They are working out, they are runners, you know, they are, um, they're definitely participating in some form of fitness. So no matter what, we all need recovery. If you're, if you're working out five days a week, you need to have your body recover, your muscle tissue, recover. So I definitely would go for, if, if we could only choose one, I would do that where we're at, because I have even out of Miami heat, out of the 15, gentlemen that are on the team, five of them come to us from time to time and do the muscle recovery and they like it, you know, it's fun for them and it feels, it makes them feel good. You know, and it's funny because when they came, then they were bringing family members [00:25:00] and they were, you know, letting them experience things. So. You know, I think once people try it, because I do know, and I'll use one in particular, you know, and I think you tried it, Adam, about biocharger. When people walk in the room, it's a glass dome. It's two lounge chairs. They think, what, what's, what is this? You know what I mean? Like. You can see the look on their face. In fact, I just did a CBS, um, I was, CBS came to a, came to our spa and Betty, who's the, um, newscaster brought her in the room and she's looking at me. And I said, Betty, this is all about healing frequencies. There's 1200. I can't put 1200 in front of a guest, but here's a, here's like a recipe card of different, 12 different. healing frequencies. So I had her [00:26:00] hold the light bulb and put her hand towards the globe. And when the light bulb light lit up, she was like, Oh my God, but you can't feel anything. And I said, no, you don't feel anything, but it doesn't mean nothing's happening. And that's, I think when people first try technology, they may not. Now, some people do, some people feel a tingling in their legs. Some people feel all kinds of stuff. I don't feel anything, but I will say I feel when I wake up the next day, I slept better at a rest, much more restful sleep, my body feels good. I feel good, I feel energized, did I feel anything while I was trying the different technologies? No. But some people do. Some, some people say, Oh my God, I felt the tingling and I feel it in my hands. My hands were getting warm. I feel nothing until the next [00:27:00] day. Adam Mogelonsky: Joking aside, but I definitely felt the cryo. Three Tammy Pahel: You did. Adam Mogelonsky: and Tammy Pahel: you were freezing. Three minutes of sub zero. I'm sure you were feeling Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. Oh, hopefully. Right. Tammy Pahel: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Adam Mogelonsky: So yeah, the, the, the biocharger, um, you know, without going into the specifics of how that's actually working on a quantum level to repair the natural frequency of the body and every single, every single one of our 37 trillion cells that makes up a human body is vibrating at a very low electrical state and you have to bring it back. to balance that is often perturbed by not touching the ground. the Schumann frequencies of the magnetic, uh, iron core of the earth that's been spinning around for, for a billion years. And we are just a part of, so, what I think is, more important to this conversation [00:28:00] is that you're selling outcomes. And within that selling outcomes, you also have these circuits, which is to say, you're not just saying sit in this one room. And bio, the biocharger is going to repair your voltage. It's the biocharger plus maybe time in an infrared sauna, which works differently. And that may be followed by a cryo and then followed by time in a regular finish sauna, uh, free access to the, you know, the two, the two mineral rooms that are divided by men and women. And there, and it's the whole idea of a circuit where you have synergistic effects, one plus one equals three. And within that, how, how do you get people to believe that these things that are acting synergistically, they don't necessarily feel them in the moment, but then afterwards they have that. That wow moment where they realize it actually works [00:29:00] and they can, they can see in hindsight, that these things are beneficial. How do you convince people who are sort of neophytes, novices to this whole wellness idea? Tammy Pahel: I have two different stories and I always tell people like when they come to me, when I was at Turnberry, I, we built two salt chambers and a gentleman had a COPD, couldn't walk up steps, 10 medications. He was so frustrated. he was in shape. It wasn't, it had nothing to do with that. Um, but anyways, I told him, listen, if you really want to feel better and reduce your medication, then go in the, go in the salt chamber every day for one hour, 365 days, and if I'm wrong, okay, but I [00:30:00] promise you, if you do it religiously, you'll change your lungs. Six months into it, he was down half his medication, a year. I was already gone at the end of the year. Cause I had, I was at Turnberry the second time for four years. The first time I built it for six years, I was there, but he told my assistant manager, please tell Tammy. That after one year I am on, not on medication and I can walk up the steps and it changed his life. And another story, a quick story, an editor from New York called me and said, my dad and my mom were divorced 10 years ago, but my mom just died suddenly and my father can't sleep. And I don't know what to do. I'm scared. He won't go, he won't take sleeping pills. He won't do anything. And he's up like he sleeps like [00:31:00] two, three hours a day. So I said, listen, he happened to live on Lincoln road. So I said, give me your dad Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Let's see. I don't know. you know, I'm not a doctor, but I'm going to tell you if this isn't. If his thyroid, if there's not a problem with his thyroid, right? He needs medication. I, and thyroid disrupts people sleeping, but if it's not, and if it was the shock of your mother dying and the thoughts of the things that were unsaid before she would die, then probably messed up his circadian rhythm. Let's see. So she brings him to me. He goes through the sleep wellness circuit. And that night, for the first time in a year, 365 days, he slept 10 hours. Then I said, give him to me again on Wednesday. Because muscle has memory. So when we [00:32:00] hurt ourselves, and we go and twist our back or whatever, the muscle And even though we can loosen it, With one session of assault flow bath, you need to do a couple of days back to back. So I said, give me your dad on Wednesday, give him on Friday and let's make sure that he's well. And he was now this was somebody who the daughter wanted to put him on medication, you know, to get him to sleep. And I think that's the other thing that's awakening people. They're looking for other alternatives. For their wellness. Instead of popping a pill, they're looking for something that's going to give them health like that gentleman with COPD. This man couldn't sleep. a husband and wife that they were bodybuilders and they were on a circuit for a year. They caught our hotel reservation team and said, Hey, we're just coming off it. We're going to come stay with you for nights. What do you [00:33:00] have to make us feel better? We're looking for something for recovery. So we put them in muscle recovery every day. They were so happy. They couldn't believe how good they felt when they left us. So the, the thing is, if I can get people to try it, there is something that happens in your mind that you say, Oh, this is really real, you know? And then if I can get you to do it in a series, you know, maybe two times a week instead of three, or maybe three times, if you have the time. Most of these, these, uh, technologies, they're 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 18 minutes. Um, we only have a couple that's 30 minutes. So the time people can do stuff on their lunch breaks, you know, so there's great opportunity for wellness for everyone, and to address things that they're struggling with. Adam Mogelonsky: And, and the [00:34:00] opportunities are only going to get bigger. You talk about the person with CLPD to help his lungs to breathe better, and you're putting him into halotherapy, a salt chamber, long before there was well established white papers and scientific research on the benefits specific to, for that disease pathway. Tammy Pahel: That was 2013. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, and now you think if our medical knowledge is doubling every year now, and you have all these technologies where now we have, proof of photobiomodulation working not only at near and far infrared in the red spectrum, but also on the green spectrum and now in the blue spectrum acting on different layers of the skin. So the opportunity for hotels is only going to compound as well as these different wellness modalities move from the woo woo into scientific [00:35:00] acceptance into mainstream adoption and mainstream acceptance. The opportunity is going that way and dare I say it, 10 years from now, if you have a quote unquote wellness resort and you don't have these modalities, people will look at you weird and go, well. You know, what, what are you doing? I mean, yeah, wellness will still, there'll still be yoga retreat places, mindfulness retreats, but this is a whole worldwide opportunity. Tammy Pahel: And, you know, I think the other thing is, you know, because. You know, when I'm getting a massage, I feel it in the moment, right? I'm feeling the benefits. I do feel the benefits after, but I'm feeling the benefits then with technology, you don't necessarily feel it in the moment, but I think like with biocharger, what I really love is to show people that am I lighting up this light bulb? It's frequencies. We're surrounded by frequencies. We don't feel it. [00:36:00] But it is a disruptor, unhealthy, unhealthy frequencies where, you know, like Vemi and Biochar, Biocharger, those are good frequencies. Those are helping remove EMF. and put good frequencies in your body. And that produces wealth in health, you know. And again, it's not, like you've got to do it for an hour. Like this man, he was on 10 medications. He had to do An extreme version, right? You don't have to do it like that, but he had to. And guess what? After one year, he could walk up steps and he was off the medication, so it was well worth it. I don't think we have to do that for those that have great lungs and a great healthy immune system, but I think it's something we could add to our lives on a weekly basis, once or twice. Take the time. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, you, you talk about [00:37:00] EMF and restoring the balance, uh, first off, VEMI, so correct me if I'm wrong, but Vibroacoustic Electromagnetic Infrared, VEMI. And I'm looking here, you know, you see me over here in terms of things that are electronic that are producing signals, frequencies. I have one, two, three, four, five. Six, seven different devices radiating out at me. Um, that's a lot of foreign stuff happening to our bodies. Hasn't happened for the past, I don't know, 10 million years or so of evolution where we're naturally adapted to the alpha frequency of the earth. So the whole idea of restoring that balance, it's not like we're going to give up electronics. So therefore the need for modalities like. What you're offering at the [00:38:00] carillon is, is only going to increase. Tammy Pahel: And, you know, beyond the technology, you know, we also offer integrative and functional medicine. We have, we offer, you know, energy medicine. We have a physical therapist, we offer acupuncture, sound healing, hypnotherapy, half day, full day retreats. We really, our tagline is, come as you are and leave as you've never been. And. You know, we don't think that even you and I've talked about it, Adam, what you see as total wellness, and maybe what I see as total wellness is two different things, because we were two different bodies, we're two different people, we have two different lives. So I think what Caroline has been able to do was to take 70, 000 square feet and create wellness for everyone. There's things that you're going to do that I would never do. Some people will never do a hundred. blood [00:39:00] panels to see what's going on in their body, but they would do acupuncture or they may do energy healing or hypnotherapy or, you know, physical therapy. They'll do other things, but we have so much so that if you come here, our average guest stays four nights, five days. So that's a lot of opportunity to try things that you would never have the opportunity to try so conveniently, you know, and I think that's what, um, we've done well, you know, giving people the opportunity to, curate their own wellness and find that balance for themselves, you know. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. You know, in, in hotel parlance, we talk about the personalization of the experience and then in the medical world, they say it's the individualization. Or the bio individualization and that, that is the whole thing with the wellness journey is [00:40:00] that it is individualized. You have to take the program and the methodology and apply it to the individual. And I, I don't want to get into anything like saying that we're all snowflakes and all that, but the whole idea of the body mind where you can't separate. The mind and the experience from the actual physical form and the expression I use there, if human beings were simple enough to be understood, we wouldn't be smart enough to understand, right? opens up so many doors because we're all different. Therefore, our journeys and what we can do on site at hotels is all going to be different. And that really is where wellness is, is going is no two people are the same. Therefore, there's a beauty in how we discover and improve, uh, and how we, how we progress on our journeys. Tammy Pahel: And you know, you and I talked about this subject [00:41:00] also, like GMs and getting them to buy into wellness and buy into where are the hospitality industries going? Whether they want to go or not, it's going, it's happening with or without them. You know, I've had the opportunity to speak in front of 25 different GMs, five star hotels, four star hotels. And it's interesting because. It's very confusing to most. I mean, Patrick Fernandez, my managing director, I mean, he understands the value of wellness, not just for himself, but for our customer. So. There's never been any pushback on anything I've ever done in the, in the hotel rooms or, you know, sprinkled throughout the hotel. And one of the things that I was going to say, a couple of GMs said to me, well, I don't have a spa. I'm in the woods. And I'm like, did [00:42:00] you ever hear of forest bathing? That's wellness. That's grounding. Did you ever have someone take people a hike on the woods? That's wellness. Well, one guy said to me, well, I have a spa, but it's very small. And like, how do I put wellness? In my hotel and I'm like, wellness starts at your front door, you know, on, on, uh, uh, Thursdays, because most people check in Thursday and stay a long weekend on Thursdays, we have best slicing and they'll do sound third, sound therapy bowls in the lobby of our hotel. Now, some people might say, what the heck is going on here? But other people find it interesting. Like, what is this again? Frequencies. Frequencies coming from a bowl, a crystal bowl that's healing. Sprinkling wellness starts at the door of the [00:43:00] hotel in the lobby. You know, we have mind spa, which is mental health, looks like a little cabinet that you get in. It's on zero gravity, but we have that, we have best life thing. We have a chef that is, um, he's taking lessons from the blue zone and adding, he's creating menus from some of their. Recipes that they have giving people the opportunity to have more wellness. Now, I'm not saying we don't have steak or French fries, but we're just giving people an opportunity to have other things. So we worry about, okay, the lobby, the food, our fitness center. Of course, we do anything from ballet to TRX. We have fitness at every level, and no matter what age you are and how fit you are, we have something for you. and then you have health and wellness with integrative and functional wellness. Um, and then, uh, best lifing that does breath [00:44:00] work and so many cool things down there that transform people's lives. And then, you know, we do have a hair salon. So if people want to get their hair shampooed, blow cut, colored, whatever. But we have so much to offer all under one roof and that's sprinkling wellness throughout the whole property. And you don't even have to have a spa. Well, of course I wish you would, but if you don't, could have something on the front lawn. You can have a hike, a walk, forest bathing. There's so many things. Go to ChatGPT and say, how can I have wellness in my, in my area? Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. Uh, you know, you mentioned sound bowls in the lobby and people are like, what is this? And then you say, you put a section on your menu, that's the blue zone menu. And people are like, Oh, what is this? And a core part of wellness is curiosity. Being, having an open mind about the world and, [00:45:00] and then progressing on your journey, uh, you know, whether you try it or not and having that flexibility of all the different options that are available to people. Tammy Pahel: And I think, I think when people open their minds, and I think in the past people thought wellness was fitness. That was all it was. They didn't look at nutrition. Then we went from, oh, fitness, nutrition. Oh, then a massage, that can be wellness. And a facial, that can be wellness because it's good for your skin, you're exfoliating. I think we were growing and evolving, but still today, last year I had a conversation with 25 GMs and they didn't know what wellness was. It's true because what we know doesn't mean what they know and most GMs came from, you know, housekeeping, food and beverage. They didn't come from the spa world or the fitness world or the wellness, not to [00:46:00] say they didn't work out or they weren't participating in. working out at some gym or doing a spinning class or something like that, but to apply it to the resort. And I think to your point, you said earlier, if you don't get on the train, you're going to be left behind because people are, people come to us because we're wellness again, not because. They might not go out to South Beach and go to some club one night, but that's not what they're doing it once and they're looking for other parts of enjoying their time and more about wellness. So I think that's the shift to, you know, before maybe they were going out every night drinking. Now they're interested in programming and what's happening. What do you offer versus just coming to the beach and drinking 10 Margaritas. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. Only 10, I guess. Right. Uh, [00:47:00] but that, that is the whole thing that this, paradigm shift that we're entering. Um. Really brought to light and accelerated during the pandemic is that people are rethinking their lifestyles and what they value, uh, with their time and money. And it doesn't happen all at once. Everyone is different. Everyone is going to discover this, but the overall wave is a wave of wellness and increasingly so year over year. Tammy Pahel: and the other thing I want to bring up, and I think you and I have talked about it, like, some people say, well, why did you put bright beds in your, um, rooms? And I'm like, we're a wellness resort. Like, we're trying to help people. Sleep better, you know, and it tracks you and you can, it'll help, you know, our average guest sleeps here with us for four nights. So, through their data that they collect, it's proven that 75%. [00:48:00] will increase their sleep, will better their sleep by 75 percent over four nights. Um, you're not going to have the same measurement if you're just staying with us two nights, but four nights they've been tracking to see what's happening. And I can tell you so many funny stories about that work. Running out of time. So I can't tell you all those stories, but funny stories where people really slept horrible. And one guy, him and his wife had a brand new baby that slept with them for a year. And he definitely wasn't sleeping, but neither was his wife. And he came to stay at our place. And he said, do you know that the bed changed 157 times to. Make me comfortable because it tracks that and tells how many times the beds Changing to make you comfortable because it's reading your body is AI Driven [00:49:00] think about that 157 times You know, and he, he said, I've never slept so good. I said, well, yeah, sleep with a baby in the bed. How can you sleep? I mean, that's impossible. I had two kids. I know all new parents do it, but you're never going to sleep and never have a good night's sleep. So, Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. You know, the, bright beds, you talk about it over a four night. period and how it's able to show the before and after the actual improvements and then you drill down to those 157 adjustments and what it's actually doing to help you get a better sleep in terms of reducing, um, unconscious wake ups and, uh, minimizing restless leg syndrome, things of that modality that Actually help the body to improve moment to moment during sleep, which is we now know is critical for the immune system, for muscle recovery, for [00:50:00] pain management, for mood, for cognition, for weight loss or fat loss, all these things sleep, sleep has a has a role. And of course, yeah, the bright beds, I've, I've stayed in them at your resort. I'm there for one night. So of course I'm new adjustment. It's hard for my unconscious mind to shift from sympathetic to parasympathetic, but even then I'm able to. Set it for 100 percent firmness the way, the way I like it, uh, you know, and, and it's, and it still is doing those adjustments and then it will help give you those little vibrations to wake you up on time so you don't need to set that alarm. It can, it can slowly bring you back up so that way you have that perfect, morning, um, you know, like turning a dial knob on the volume back up during the morning. And even just during one night, Tammy Pahel: you know, like I said, we only have been able to track, well, bright beds is one tracking because our [00:51:00] average guest does stay four nights. So we see the, a big change in that. And like you said, maybe one or two nights, you're going to see a change, but not the drastic change you would with four nights in the bed. And I think the other cool thing is like for myself. You know, I travel a lot. You do too. We were in Europe where we're traveling to different events, right? And I look to see if there is an AI bed, not just bright bed. Is there any kind of AI driven bed? You know, but if I can find, like I know in Los Angeles, Four Seasons has one floor that they call wellness and they have the right beds. I would stay there because I can put my name in and the bed will reset to just me. So it remembers exactly how I slept. So I, I have a better chance of sleeping better quicker because the bed's already set for me. Adam Mogelonsky: yeah, now we're talking about beds [00:52:00] themselves as a feature that drive bookings, the concept goes back to, I guess, the Westin's heavenly bed, program, but now this is just, uh, amped up, uh, to 11, so to speak. Because now the beds have technology and can show the improvement month over month and year over year and give you data to actually show you that improvement instead of just relying on memory and saying, Oh, that's a brand that I like. Tammy Pahel: sure. And I think that, you know, more and more, we're going to see more and more companies coming out with AI driven. And one thing we just launched, um, at the Carillon, skin authority has, uh, in our lobby, it's free. You walk up to it, it's a big iPad and you type in your name, you answer a couple of questions. It scans you in 30 seconds, tells you what products to buy. What you're, what [00:53:00] facial you need to book. I mean, it tells you everything and that report is sent to your home. So what we're, we're doing with it is we're telling people, okay, do it now, follow what it does. Let's see you in, you know, see you in three months. A lot of our, 60 percent of our locals come to us. But, you know, in three months, let's see your progress because it rates your skin in different parts. Like what you need to work on. And some people, some women said, I was just at a global wellness summit, had a media event in New York city, and we did this and I had women, six women standing there going, I want to see this. I want to see this. There had other women like, I don't want to see it. I don't want to see it. The good thing was like AI, you know, I know a lot of people are afraid of, you know, the end result, what could happen, but you know, what we're seeing is some opportunities. Now this is skin wellness, you know, and it's not a [00:54:00] person telling you it's a scan in 30 seconds. Telling you exactly what you need to focus on, what products you should buy and what services you should have. So I think that's really cool. I mean, somebody like myself, I have no patience. I can't sit still long enough for anything. So for me, 30 seconds, I'm like, okay, I can do this. You know? So I think too. You know, we are, um, we want everything right now. And I think, um, in this case with skin authority, what they've done is, um, pretty, pretty amazing. Adam Mogelonsky: And, and, and, you know, you think what they're doing, every other company is going to do in some way. Uh, techno gym has their, you know, uh, 30 seconds scan that they do. There's apps you can download that can just from a face, just from looking at your face for 30 minutes, they can tell you your, uh, you know, your heart rate variability and your skin age, [00:55:00] uh, et cetera, et cetera. It's only going to get more and more. tech driven in a lot of ways. Tammy Pahel: I agree. And I think in the end, look, combining technology with some traditional, you know, experiences. And when I say traditional, like, you know, there's acupuncture has been around for a long time. You know, there's a lot of energy healing has been around time. Quantum healing has been around for a long time. There's lots of things. So I'm not saying AI is everything. I'm not saying technology is everything. I'm saying when you combine all these opportunities under one roof. You're giving people a chance to have wellness their way. Adam Mogelonsky: and then combining it all together into circuits is, they all synergize one another. One plus one equals three. So, uh, to close out here, uh, an hour long discussion. Let's look to the future. what do you see as any other trends, any other big trends that you [00:56:00] think hotels and, and, and spa directors and everyone else should, should look to for what's coming up in the next five years in wellness. Tammy Pahel: Well, I think you and I should go on the road teaching GMs how they can get a higher ADR and how through technology, their return on investment can be quite quick and it's going to drive traffic to their place. So I think. I really do believe that. I believe education for GMs. They need because they haven't really been exposed to it. They're used to running a hotel looking at, you know, occupancy and 80 are and, you know, Rev par and they're focused on all that they and they should be not to say they shouldn't, but I think they also need to be exposed. I mean, I told you I talked to 25 people in a room. Majority were men that were About three [00:57:00] female GMs in the room, and all of them struggled with how do I have wellness in my space, in my hotel, in my resort. So I think it's something we need to do, Adam. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, I can't stop talking about it. It's, it's all I really talk about. Um, for me personally, it's sort of, it, it pains me a little bit to see people still on the treadmill, of the 20th century treadmill, and then I'm, I'm always trying to interject what can I give them to inspire them to look at this journey? If it's a article recommendation, a book, or, you know, have you thought about this? Do you, have you looked at intermittent fasting at all? Things, things like that. And, you know, it, it really is. Uh, going back to an earlier part of our conversation, it's that moment to moment. What am I doing here? And then you look back in hindsight and you say, okay, yeah, I might've changed a few minds, uh, a few years [00:58:00] ago or something like that. Tammy Pahel: I think that's the best thing we can do. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. Tammy, thank you so much for the full hour of your time to really dissect what you've done, uh, where wellness is going and the fantastic programming that the Carillon has. Thank you so much. Tammy Pahel: Thank you. Thank you for having me. And it's always fun to have a chat with you. It's all, I learn something new every time I talk to you, Adam. So Adam Mogelonsky: Well, uh, yeah, we'll have to have another, another chat sometime soon. Cause uh, there's, you know, the, the ideas up here, I, I don't know, I don't know where they come from. They're just floating in and out. Right. Tammy Pahel: It's good though. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. Thanks, Tammy. Tammy Pahel: Thank you. [00:59:00]