Latest / Authentic Living / Psychologist Sue Lymburner shares strategies for Senior leaders to integrate in managing their employees who experienced trauma

Transcript

Psychologist Sue Lymburner shares strategies for Senior leaders to integrate in managing their employees who experienced trauma · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:39
  Hi, everyone.
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  It's Rob San again this week.
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  How are you?
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  Thanks for tuning in again.
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  This week, I have a very dear friend, Sue Lynnburner, that's, come to join us today and
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  talk a little bit about trauma.
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  Hi, Sue.
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  How are you today?
• 0:54
  I'm well.
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  And we see Val back there rolling around a little bit.
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  Hi, Val.
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  I'm so Happy to see you as well.
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  She knows my voice.
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  Yeah.
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  Okay.
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  So I'm just gonna tell you a little bit about, a Sue's background, and then we're gonna just
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  kinda talk a little bit about, for specialty, which is trauma.
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  So what's clinical psychotherapist with 20 years in trauma and over 20 years experience in
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  the field of psychotherapy, Sue helps clients gain insights into the challenges they face.
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  So obstacles that may seem insurmountable, insurmountable can be overcome.
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  By learning from their experiences and how it's impacted their life, they can identify tools
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  and coping mechanisms that work for them.
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  They can learn to approach issues from a different perspective, and take action to
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  address, the concerns are keeping them back from needing a healthy, peaceful life.
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  So, Sue, is there anything that's, I have you have been touched on on the bio that the
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  listeners might be you might want the listeners to know.
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  Well, it's interesting.
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  This strong award.
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  We're talking, I think, where what my area of focus would like to be for today.
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  And I think trauma, in general, and how it impacts people, I I think what I'm finding
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  more, coming into my private practice and when I was working at the sexual assault center, are
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  meant to have experienced trauma.
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  And just that's a little bit more of a silent impact, I think.
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  So that's just what came to my mind.
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  Just how much more I'm seeing that in my my private practice, men with trauma histories,
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  and, how yet, I guess, for for such a long time, that's been outside.
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  Interesting.
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  So let's let's, let's kind of talk about for people that maybe, I think this word or this
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  definition of word of trauma gets thrown up around a lot.
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  And I want for us to kinda define it what that is.
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  Right?
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  So I know we I always say small t trauma, all the way up to big t trauma.
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  For a chronic 15 week upgrade.
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  I've been through that.
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  Yeah.
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  I would like me to go over my toe.
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  I follow Tommy Rosen.
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  I think I talked about it.
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  It does a lot of recovery, and it was initially a recovery from, you know, our traditional
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  addictions, but he's expanded it to recovery really for so much of what we do in our life.
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  Right?
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  You know, overeating, ways of thinking, even if you'll talk about but he was doing an interview
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  with Gabor Mate, remind us, you know, trauma is not as much the actual event.
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  It's the impact.
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  So the fallout of that event, how it changes your sense of self how it changes, how you see
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  the world, how it changes your sense of safety in the world, really Yeah.
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  And I I think that's important to remember.
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  Really, another one I think that we may have both learned was it's experiencing something
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  that is beyond your ability to control or make sense of.
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  It overwhelmed your capacity to organize and cope.
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  So when we think, I mean, as Icyclotherapist, we know that safety is key.
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  And when, you know, when I think of safety, I think of kinda, I can I can go out in the
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  world?
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  If you think of a child, you know, with your girls and with with RJ, you you try to create a
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  space as best as you can.
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  To say that, I'll say you're perfect just the way you are.
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  Developmentally, that's ideally what we want children to come into those world with, right,
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  to believe that You know, if I'm introvert or an extrovert or if I like piano or if I like
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  dance or if I like, you know, mountain biking or, musical instruments.
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  It doesn't matter that being who I am is who I I need to be in the world and us as parents or
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  primary caregivers, we kind of support that child in development.
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  Would you agree of that kind of concept of of what?
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  Well, I think that's
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  try to do, but I think inadvertently, we don't always do that, right, because we want our
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  children maybe to have better lives than what we had.
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  Or maybe triggered by what they're dealing or if they're struggling with something.
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  And so sometimes, you know, we can misdirect our our support by Yeah.
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  Our own anxiety kind of overriding just that ability to just accept that they're where
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  they're at.
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  I think in theory, we would all say we're gonna order our children to be whoever they are, but
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  I I think the practicality of that is that that's sometimes harder to do if you don't
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  understand your child's choices or experiences or you don't agree with them.
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  That's not what you want for your child.
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  Yeah.
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  I had a conversation, you know, recently with somebody who shared that when their child first
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  came out as being, yay, you know, how devastating that was for them because in their
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  moms, they wanted they had a different experience for their children.
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  And so the initial reaction was not very supportive.
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  Right?
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  There was a lot of fear, a lot of worry, a lot of misunderstanding, confusion, And I don't
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  think that means that the parents, you know, it's not about love all the time.
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  It's also about our capacity to be present to meet our child's and support them whatever
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  they're doing, which, again, in theory, I think we would all agree with that the practicality
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  of that is sometimes harder than other times.
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  So we really do, I think, the best we can with what we have and what's in front of us.
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  We try to be the best possible space for our kids, but I would say that most of us didn't
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  grow up in ideal environments, but we hope accordingly and just try to do better with our
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  children, or, you know, so that we could give them something a little bit potentially better
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  than what we had.
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  Would you agree with that?
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  Yeah.
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  Let let's talk about trauma, more, traumatic events.
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  And and like we said, traumatic events are As as human beings, none of us are wired to deal
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  with things outside of the ordinary.
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  We kind of assume that in our day to day lives that things are gonna play out the way they
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  need to.
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  And then something traumatic happens, and it disrupts the flow of consistency that we expect
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  in our lives.
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  So when when we talk about, trauma and kind of the work that you've done, let's talk about,
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  you talked about the symptoms, and I think that's really, really important, for it that we
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  talk about, because none of us are equipped, as human beings, we develop symptoms to help us
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  cope.
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  So let's talk about some of the things that you've seen over your years of practice that,
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  of symptoms that kind of come from from traumatic events?
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  Well, you are mentioned drug and alcohol use, right, which is certainly a way try to cope
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  with overwhelming feelings, anger, confusion, hurts.
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  So when I when I meet people in adulthood, So maybe, you know, I need to control.
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  Right?
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  It is sometimes, and that can look like being very controlling in our own environments to the
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  point of being abusive, controlling in regards to managing our anxiety and not knowing what's
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  gonna happen next to the point of becoming developing obsessive compulsive disorder to
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  such an extreme attempt to try to control our environment.
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  I think we see, you know, we talk about flashbacks.
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  We talk about self harm.
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  We talk about irritability.
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  So we often know there's a correlation, you know, with earlier trauma and to depression and
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  anxiety.
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  But I think the, you know, the average person may not be able to correlate that back.
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  So just this sense of being, you know, not feeling settled or not feeling, in control or
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  that, like you mentioned, that sense of feeling safe within ourselves that I can manage what's
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  happening.
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  So even just really simply, I think things like depression and anxiety are often presented with
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  often clients not understanding where that's come from.
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  And if
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  you kinda think about it in the world too, right, like, lately, I mean, I'm, you know, out
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  there and, you know, in the world, we terror, anxiety and depression's on the increased.
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  Mental health is on the increase.
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  So many things are on the increase and a significant percentage of that could, could be
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  related to traumatic events.
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  Right?
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  So we know that, like we said, the the smelty trauma could be something as difficult as I had
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  a loss as a child to my parents separated all the way up to complex PCST, which is something
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  that I know, you have specialty and which is, intense childhood neglects, childhood sexual
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  abuse or just, sexual abuse are assault under the age of five, right?
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  When we kinda look out there, we don't know what's going on with the world in reference to
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  why this increase is, but we we can assume, that a significant amount of that could be
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  related to, sexual abuse.
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  Would you agree with that?
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  Well, the statistic that we need, right, is 1 in 3 women will have experienced sexual abuse,
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  and 1 in 5 men will have experienced sexual abuse.
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  So I think there it's much more profound than what I think the average person understands or
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  wants to believe
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  Right?
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  Cause that's kinda, I mean, you and I know it because we we kinda have been in those worlds.
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  Right?
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  But the average person goes, what?
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  What does that mean?
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  You know, if there's three people in the room.
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  It's more than likely 1 out of 3 of us as females are 1 out of 5 men.
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  That's that's a significant amount.
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  And I and I think even before I started to begin doing some more intense trauma work as a
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  therapist, I I was ignorant to that.
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  It's it's very hard to believe.
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  It's it's a very it's a tragic truth to try to wrap your head around.
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  Right?
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  And then we know if if I, you know, experience that level of trauma, just what that's like for
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  me, now raising my own children or engaging with coworkers.
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  You know, it doesn't take away from my incredible capacity to to do my job well and to
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  do aspects of my life very well, but there's often a cost of that, right, that maybe is kept
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  hidden from other people.
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  But maybe I have a pro a profound, you know, level of anxiety where I am hang up late, and
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  I'm I'm stretching, you know, burning the candle at both ends to try to stay on top of
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  things and to to maybe people please is a term we often use for trauma survivors, right,
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  trying to maintain some kind of control or safety and Yeah.
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  You know, it's interesting because I just watched, Whitney Houston's, biography.
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  And, again, here's someone you know, like you said, it's 1 out of 3, 1 out of 5 in day to day
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  living.
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  But when I looked at her biography, she had obviously, suffered from a lot of drug
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  addiction, but they had talked about that she had been abused under the age of five by a
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  family member, something that I did not know that was public.
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  Unfortunately, it sometimes takes something like a high profile person like that or kind of
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  like what we're seeing with the me too movements for things to kind of start to
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  dialogue out there about what things that you and I have known for, you know, years years
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  being in practice.
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  Since the, since the me too movements, how have things been out there that you found in
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  reference to survivors and survivors of, of, of sexual abuse, we call them survivors, people
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  that had come forward and sought help.
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  How are people accepting that I acknowledge that it's actually aware in the world.
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  I think people, you know, I think in our community here in Niagara, I think there is
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  there there certainly is more, room for conversations.
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  And I I also think, you know, one one thing that was noted was that at the one of the
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  centers that there was, an older population, coming into, you know, there was language given
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  to it.
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  There was a sense safety in in regards to, yeah, what was happening that there was a sense
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  of being able to finally talk about this when maybe there hadn't been the context to talk
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  about it previously.
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  There weren't, we know for men that there haven't always been, you know, places available
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  to talk about things.
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  And I think, yeah, you know, for women, I think there's, I think sexual abuse in particular,
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  it's such a a specific trauma, but unfortunately I think there's also the
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  possibility that misguided other health professionals or caring people don't always
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  give the right information or have the understanding of the impacts that that has on
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  your you know, such a deep rate.
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  Right?
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  I I think that, you know, that is that is the ultimate violation Right?
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  It's the betrayal of your violation of your your your thoughts, your body, your psyche,
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  your spirit, and whether it happens in childhood or as a a single assault, I think it
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  really disrupts somebody's sense of self and then how they see them involved.
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  So I think with me too, certainly more conversations.
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  I think there's more awareness at different institutions and campuses and of of having, you
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  know, those conversations, but I I think there's still a long way to go because I think
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  for the average person parent, it's something that we don't wanna talk about.
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  You said something about health care professionals.
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  What kind of things have you seen, or what what should health care professionals and people
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  that are listening not just healthcare professionals, but I would think also people in
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  companies or or HR or, you know, things that just people managing other people.
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  What kind of issue?
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  I think it's closing something.
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  Right?
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  Your your role is to listen.
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  And you may not have the capacity to, you know, and it's probably not appropriate for you to
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  pursue it too far, but I think just just really creating a safe place for the person to talk
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  about what's going on.
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  You don't have to be the judge and jury in that moment.
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  You just need to have an open ear and really listening without and being mindful.
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  I always think of of somebody who shared with me when they first went to tell their doctor,
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  you know, finally after years, I I think of of wanting to say something.
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  The fact that the doctor who who did not have a lot, specific knowledge, but really listened.
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  Right?
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  Really listened and then offered a resource.
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  So to the local, you know, the appropriate local, treatment center and just just listening
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  Right.
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  Being aware of your body language, not asking questions that you know, could potentially
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  sound like criticism.
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  Why didn't you do something different?
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  Why didn't you stop it?
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  Why didn't you tell somebody?
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  You know, those are things that I I hope people have heard enough enough in the media.
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  We've talked about those things.
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  You know, I think back to Giongomeshi, you know, we were talking about why survivors don't
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  come forward.
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  It's been a long time now.
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  So I I hope people understand.
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  They may they may not fully understand it.
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  But how to just create a space where the person can tell what they need to say.
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  So just being compassionate and kind, because oftentimes, I'm sure you've heard this about
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  false memory.
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  Right?
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  I know as, as a psychotherapist, I've been asked about that.
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  And, you know, I think it just came up, the other day at a conversation that was, you know,
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  not a psychotherapy kind of, group of people was just general people and someone said to me,
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  you know, like, what about those people that lie?
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  And I, I, I shared with them.
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  I said, you know, after Sue and I worked at that I read in sexual assault center for quite
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  a lot of years.
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  And I said, you know, when you see a woman or a man and Sue and I also saw a man, come through
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  those doors and to be able to start to even connect with us about why they're there and
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  tend to see us sometimes it would be years and, and relate their story.
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  It was like, literally, like, having root canal, every 10 minutes, 60 minute hour.
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  Yeah.
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  And, and then for people to perceive that would want to go on that experience is, you know, I
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  said, I could, I couldn't even, you know, perceive that that would happen.
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  Yes, there are people that could be you know, maladaptive with how they're coping with things
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  that would throw off the issue, but generally the, the people that we were seeing were
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  devastatingly, injured and and not well and had every symptom, every medical symptom related to
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  the trauma you know, you know, suicidality, all those things.
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  So that false memory syndrome, is something that we know is an anomaly or very, very little
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  not something for people to be concerned about.
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  If someone's coming forward like success, just be just be a human being that says I hear you.
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  I don't know what to say right now.
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  I wish I knew what to say, even if that's what you all you can say is, and then to just help
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  them find a resource, that could help them.
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  Even, you know,
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  even just saying, I'm sorry this happened.
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  Right?
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  Yeah.
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  I I agree with what you said earlier.
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  I think we, you know, we've written the incredible pain that people go through in in
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  processing this impact is is it's very intense and it's very hard for Absolutely.
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  Having us been, you know, I think, been given the gift to be able to share that space with
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  people.
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  And I would say that.
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  And I know you and I both have talked about it over the years is that it's a privilege to be
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  able to see that we could create a space that potentially could have people start to even
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  experienced trust potentially for the first time in their lives.
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  So, you know, I want you to talk a little bit about, you know, men because You know, it's one
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  thing for us to talk about females and and that's, you know, we know that that has come
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  along and is still is a long ways off.
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  But I want to for you to talk a little bit about, you know, the, the specialties that
• 19:49
  you've developed, working with men, and kind of what that space is like for men that have been
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  abused and what it, what it takes for them to come forward or even to seek treatment.
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  And I just wanna go back and just be in regards to when we think we may have an idea of what
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  somebody looks like who has been sexually and and I think that's another myth that is
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  perpetuated.
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  I, yeah, they they look just like you and I.
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  Right, from all walks of life and all.
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  I think that's the other thing is that there's there's it just touches everybody.
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  It's actually being so that's one thing.
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  I just wanted to reiterate.
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  In regards to the men, so part of my, professional work in regards to working with
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  men has also been to to run a a survivor group for men.
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  So I was able to help, implement it, facilitate it.
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  And I think, Mike, there's one thing I always say about the men's group is that it's It's
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  incredibly hard to get men to come to because of the level of stigma, shame, fear, of of
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  being vulnerable, what that's gonna look like exposed, and inevitably almost, you know, every
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  person, every year, rarely locks the group to end because there's often for the first time,
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  you know, in in the lives of these men an ability to just be honest, to share, to be
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  open, and to lose that.
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  I think it's hard sometimes when group comes to to end.
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  And again, you know, it's a cross section of men from men that have been homeless and drug
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  addicted and alcoholism.
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  To men and very powerful, you know, positions, careers, you know, financially, from from very,
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  you know, disadvantage to very wealthy to no education to well educated.
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  It's a it's a cross section and I think for men, we we've learned, you know, I my partner,
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  Fred and I, when we ran the group, we learned very early on that we had to address the myths
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  that are out there because, we realize how impactful they are and how we still pay
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  attention to these myths that are are circulated or perpetuated.
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  And some of those are you know, which certainly would stop a man from coming forward.
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  We don't hear this for women, but if a man has been sexually abused, most likely gonna go on
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  and section you these others.
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  Now we don't talk about that for women, but we certainly perpetuate that myth that that
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  occurs.
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  So men, hats, men are afraid then because they think if I come forward and I see treatments,
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  I'm gonna be perceived that I will also be an abuser.
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  Absolutely.
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  And I think even for, you know, the men, I've heard this many times, even them believing
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  that.
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  And so not trusting themselves because there's there's this know, I know I have been abused,
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  and so maybe I will abuse others when, you know, that has never been something that
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  they've done or or thought about doing, but this this overarching belief that that's what
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  I'm going to turn into and you know, the tragedy of that that men have for fear, you
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  know, not bonded with their children, for fear, you know, not based on anything internal of
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  themselves, but just this distorted overarching false, statement that is very oppressive to to
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  healing and to, you know, when when we talk about that, there's another fall at Right?
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  So we have somebody that is personally directed who then, you know, that compromises their
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  relationship with others.
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  There are other, you know, other family members.
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  I think for men, there's also a belief that men are not supposed to be the victims are supposed
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  to be strong.
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  So there's a level of shame.
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  I think for men involved that somehow They should have been able to stop it.
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  Men aren't supposed to cry, right, that, you know, suck it up, get on with it.
• 24:14
  Yeah, those are some of them.
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  There's a few other myths, but Those those are big ones that are often punctuated.
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  If it was a female, you were supposed to have liked it.
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  And so you know, that pressure.
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  Again, you've got society saying lucky you.
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  And when that's not your experience, you don't feel lucky.
• 24:36
  It didn't feel good and it didn't feel safe and it didn't feel consensual.
• 24:41
  And it I think that can lead to another level of confusion, around intimacy and sexuality?
• 24:49
  Let's talk about intimacy because I think that's, you know, as you and I know, how much
• 24:55
  it affects things.
• 24:57
  So in reference to what we know, when you tell me, you know, trust, obviously, is the first
• 25:02
  thing that gets breached when when someone has been, assaulted.
• 25:10
  And, right?
• 25:11
  I think we can think of the physical aspect, but as we know, often it's by, you know, the
• 25:17
  breach of that boundary is by often somebody that we know, right, and that we trust.
• 25:23
  So often it's the betrayal.
• 25:25
  Right?
• 25:25
  It's this person who said they loved me or showed me that the cared about me or, you know,
• 25:31
  what is my family member, and I did love some.
• 25:35
  And and then there's this breach of that.
• 25:38
  There's a taking advantage of manipulation of that.
• 25:41
  So I think when we talk about trust,
• 25:44
  you
• 25:45
  know, I think that's an an even greater impact is just how can I trust again when this person
• 25:51
  that I cared about or loved took advantage of me like that?
• 25:56
  And they gave me and my sense of self or my sense of worth was was really not taken into
• 26:04
  consideration whatsoever.
• 26:06
  And you take that in the world, right, whether it's at work, Whether it's at friendships,
• 26:11
  whether it's with a partner, even a child, you know, you you take that sense of self with you,
• 26:17
  which gets disrupted when there's, you know, trauma like we're talking about it.
• 26:22
  So I mean, you know, when talk a little bit about, a flashback or a triggers for people
• 26:28
  that may or may not know what that means.
• 26:30
  I think you know, what what could happen to someone.
• 26:33
  Let's see, I'm I'm a survivor and I'm working with you, Sue, and let's say you trigger me how
• 26:42
  might it play out potentially at work if I'm a supervisor or appear?
• 26:46
  Well, I think what it what a trigger is is simply something reminding you of a past
• 26:52
  experience.
• 26:53
  Right?
• 26:53
  So trigger, we and to use it in a negative way, but a trigger is also, you know, vice yeah.
• 27:00
  I was gonna say if I think back, you know, if I smell chicken noodle soup sometimes, I remember
• 27:04
  eating chicken noodle soup watching the fenced stones at lunchtime at school.
• 27:08
  And it's, you know, they so that that's a positive, but, you know, what often we're
• 27:16
  referring to is it reminds you of a a time and place that that wasn't.
• 27:22
  You didn't feel sick.
• 27:23
  You didn't feel in control.
• 27:24
  You were being hurt.
• 27:25
  So often people can be triggered, you know, and and often the person if if you're my boss and
• 27:32
  you're triggering me you may not be aware of it.
• 27:35
  More more likely you're not, but it's reminding me of a feeling that I had or maybe I wasn't in
• 27:43
  control or I was powerless or helpless.
• 27:45
  And so maybe when I was, you know, younger, I couldn't do anything and now, you know, in my
• 27:53
  young adulthood, I've decided no one's ever gonna take advantage of me again.
• 27:56
  So maybe I'm very defensive.
• 27:58
  There are maybe I'm very reactive.
• 28:01
  You're very argumentative.
• 28:03
  Or, you know, I've learned that it's not safe for me to speak up, so I say nothing.
• 28:09
  Right?
• 28:09
  So I'm not agreeing with what's happening.
• 28:12
  I'm not understanding it.
• 28:16
  But I'm I don't feel safe enough within myself for fear of how that may that person may
• 28:23
  respond back to me.
• 28:25
  And so we can be stuck you know, logically, we may know my boss is okay, but, you know, that
• 28:32
  trauma part of us, that traumatized part of us will often stay stuck and not able to move past
• 28:39
  those earlier experiences of not feeling safe.
• 28:43
  Or in control on power.
• 28:45
  So really important for people to know.
• 28:47
  Right?
• 28:47
  Like, that sometimes, people may be reacting, and it may not be really based on your actions
• 28:54
  other than they have a, you know, I I call it the record player that's playing over and over
• 28:58
  again based on something because they've been put back into a pass experience that was like
• 29:03
  less than positive for them.
• 29:05
  So tell tell, tell the listeners what kind of things that you do to help people deal with
• 29:11
  trauma?
• 29:12
  Like, what is it that you do with them to help them deal with the traumas or feeling unsafe
• 29:17
  and things like that?
• 29:18
  What kind of things do you do?
• 29:19
  We only talked about thinking of utilization.
• 29:21
  So it's always it's really not about, you know, if somebody was thinking about going to do some
• 29:28
  work, around their earlier traumas.
• 29:31
  I think there's a time and a place, something I think sometimes we wait, you know, longer once
• 29:37
  then maybe we think we should, but it's hard work and there has to be some safety in your
• 29:42
  life.
• 29:42
  So if there's a lot of turmoil, there changes, that's probably not the time to do trauma work.
• 29:48
  Often people will say it's when they're settled and starting to feel safe that some of the
• 29:52
  earlier stuff arises.
• 29:54
  And that surprises them.
• 29:56
  You know, I'm feeling better about my life now.
• 29:59
  Why are these things coming up?
• 30:00
  And I think it's because we now have the ability to process it.
• 30:05
  So we talk about, you know, what are you doing to take care of yourself, right?
• 30:08
  What are you doing to manage your symptoms of maybe anxiety?
• 30:13
  You know, feeling overwhelmed, feeling stressed, what are you doing?
• 30:16
  We talk about breathing.
• 30:17
  We talk about our body.
• 30:19
  You know, we talk about mindfulness.
• 30:22
  Reframing our default thinking.
• 30:24
  You know, CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy, and that's really just about being really aware
• 30:30
  of what my my pattern of thinking is.
• 30:34
  Am I just assuming, you know, that that interaction that you are, you know, not gonna
• 30:41
  be there for me.
• 30:42
  And just being aware before I respond or react that I've really thought about what's
• 30:49
  happening?
• 30:49
  And do I have other possible interpretations of what's happening?
• 30:54
  So those are all along the the beginning stages of the work.
• 31:00
  And then really, you know, for a lot of times, interestingly, I I found I have found
• 31:05
  personally working with men that sometimes just being able to speak it out loud, but has been
• 31:10
  very helpful, something that they carry, you know, so deeply within themselves as a secret
• 31:15
  for so long.
• 31:16
  Just speaking it out loud can can begin to alleviate some of that chain.
• 31:22
  And to to some degree, all of us I think just having a safe space to say it out loud, but we
• 31:28
  do it very carefully.
• 31:30
  We do it in bits.
• 31:33
  Because often, you know, there's grief, you know, that arises, this loss, you know,
• 31:42
  childhood experiences, the hurts that was created, the loss, you know, of developing
• 31:48
  healthy relationships with others sometimes can be impacted.
• 31:53
  So I think it's it's really, yeah, you know, expanding on on their strengths and
• 32:00
  capabilities and what's going what are you doing now in the present before we start Let's
• 32:07
  unpack a little bit.
• 32:10
  And challenging.
• 32:11
  You know, sometimes as a child, if I've been not treated well.
• 32:16
  I will default, to believing it had something to do with me.
• 32:21
  So part of the work is really less as adults really look back at that objectively and really
• 32:27
  understand what was going on and really how was that new fault.
• 32:33
  And what could you have done differently?
• 32:35
  Probably nothing because you were a child, even up to teenage years.
• 32:39
  Right?
• 32:40
  Like, we really don't have a lot of control.
• 32:43
  You know, we we were raised to listen to adults, defer to adults, you know, and that's
• 32:48
  specifically sexual abuse that I'm talking about right now.
• 32:51
  But
• 32:52
  and so I'm just curious, right, for people that maybe are listening and thinking, you know, I
• 32:59
  have young children.
• 33:01
  Right?
• 33:01
  And I'm uncomfortable talking about this stuff or whatever.
• 33:06
  What kind of things would you say as a psychotherapist that they should consider when,
• 33:11
  you know, you we don't wanna obviously worry your children, but we want the them with
• 33:16
  certain things.
• 33:16
  So what kind of things would you suggest to parents that might come or, want to chat about
• 33:22
  how they should approach the subject to
• 33:25
  Well, I think education model, you know, healthy boundaries, right, respect.
• 33:30
  So your child wants to get, you know, changed in the back with her brother or sister joining
• 33:37
  them, you know, really, really assisting with setting up boundaries and privacy.
• 33:43
  By thinking really aware of what we're modeling.
• 33:46
  So, you know, if I want, you know, again, if I'm watching it on my child, and at some point
• 33:51
  they're uncomfortable with that instead of us, you know, it's fine.
• 33:54
  And your mother or your father, you know, really respecting that.
• 33:58
  Giving them choices and just modeling, respecting their choices.
• 34:03
  I think that helps develop.
• 34:05
  I have a sense of self Right?
• 34:08
  I'm I'm there's value in my parents honoring what I'm saying.
• 34:12
  And of course, the choices are geared to you know, do you wanna wear the blue top or the red
• 34:16
  top that change?
• 34:17
  But I think if we can start as young as possible, we develop a child that is aware that
• 34:24
  they have a sense of agency in the world.
• 34:27
  I think, you know, as much as a parent can to talk about body part.
• 34:32
  Mhmm.
• 34:32
  Right?
• 34:32
  Appropriately, you know, was the appropriate term?
• 34:36
  Use the pro you use the proper words versus pet words for your private parts so that children
• 34:42
  understand exactly what you mean because I think a lot of times people are intimidated
• 34:46
  themselves to say the words So they they screw it around it, but to know that that's actually
• 34:52
  part of, educating your child as much as possible along with the boundaries that this is
• 34:57
  your body.
• 34:57
  And these are your parts and to know that, you know, to say to someone that you don't touch me
• 35:02
  in certain parts of my body, but to use the real language.
• 35:05
  Yeah.
• 35:06
  And, yeah, these these are you know, it's it's certainly not about, like you said, we don't
• 35:11
  wanna create, a world for our children where it's not safe.
• 35:15
  They don't feel safe, but but I think that we can do it and just natural opportunities.
• 35:21
  Right?
• 35:22
  And our kids will have questions.
• 35:24
  They will hear things and how do we those answers.
• 35:27
  And ideally, you know, we wanna be listening to our children.
• 35:31
  We wanna take the time to to have conversations about life in general.
• 35:35
  Because I think if our children know, you know, I guess, ideally too, you know, if if you're
• 35:41
  ever uncomfortable, you come and tell me, you know, there are a lot of resources online
• 35:47
  parents to to access, you know, depending how comfortable you are, but I think if your child
• 35:54
  trusts you and feels that they can go to you and that you're available, you know, that may
• 35:58
  help in maintaining some communication when maybe, you know, your child has a concern or
• 36:04
  something feels uncomfortable.
• 36:06
  So, again, we go back to that openness and saying to your children that, you know, we can
• 36:12
  talk about anything, but not to overwhelm them based on think of how old they are and how
• 36:17
  you're sharing with them.
• 36:19
  Yeah.
• 36:19
  You know, and not to not to make them think that the world is a place to be here, but just
• 36:24
  that they have the they have the skills and if they don't know to ask
• 36:28
  and what the other people are.
• 36:29
  I think I always remember, you know, there was a game that I I didn't want my children to what
• 36:34
  if.
• 36:35
  That started very, you know, What would you do if if you got off the bus and I wasn't here?
• 36:40
  And instead of me telling them what the answers are, you know, what What would you do then?
• 36:45
  We had to sit and try to figure it out.
• 36:47
  And then instead of kind of in a light way, with some health over separately, you know, who
• 36:53
  went to that neighbor.
• 36:55
  And I think that just also, you know, pages our children to to trust their thinking to practice
• 37:02
  that kind of processing.
• 37:03
  And I think, yeah, you know, maintaining a time where you can sit and just talk about how
• 37:07
  things are going and what coming up in the news?
• 37:09
  And what did you learn at school?
• 37:11
  And, the other one that, you know, I personally have been I feel pretty strongly about is I
• 37:18
  think there was a generation where, you know, go hug a full mic or kiss your grandmother or
• 37:23
  and we would never let our child not do that because we were embarrassed.
• 37:28
  And I think there's something about really allowing our child to decide.
• 37:32
  You know what?
• 37:33
  It's I I think there maybe was generational, but kind of forcing us as kids to go hug and
• 37:39
  kiss everybody whether wanted to or not.
• 37:41
  And maybe there's other ways of maintaining a respectful, greeting that that don't include
• 37:49
  just being mindful.
• 37:50
  Like, the child doesn't want to, like, being aware of our own, maybe I'm embarrassed because
• 37:55
  my child's not listening.
• 37:57
  But just being here.
• 37:58
  That means there's a way I can support my child.
• 38:01
  So, you know, so I just think about, you know, how trauma could impact people, and they truly
• 38:07
  believe that I'm, I'm a depressed, you know, the I'ms, right, when we think of this, the
• 38:12
  symptoms that develop because of trauma.
• 38:15
  When people have sought help, would you say that that those assumptions or those symptoms
• 38:20
  that they take on as being characteristics get cleared up?
• 38:25
  Yeah.
• 38:26
  Yeah.
• 38:26
  I I think it's I think people don't often correlate their symptoms right back to the
• 38:34
  trauma.
• 38:35
  So I think even being able to link that, you know, clarifies a little bit and organizes a
• 38:42
  little bit.
• 38:43
  You know, I'm I'm not destined to feel this way.
• 38:47
  And and, you know, sometimes other health professionals will say you just gotta live with
• 38:51
  this depression.
• 38:52
  You know, take these pills and not to say that there's not a time and a place that that's
• 38:56
  appropriate or helpful, but I think, you know, having an opportunity to really understand why
• 39:02
  I started to think the way I did.
• 39:04
  Why I started to not believe that there was things were gonna turn out well.
• 39:10
  You know, I things weren't turning out well for me.
• 39:13
  People weren't there for me or I couldn't trust people and really, you know, differentiating
• 39:20
  about a way of seeing the world that just absorb as a child because of your
• 39:26
  circumstances.
• 39:28
  Versus how do you remember and recognize as an adult?
• 39:32
  You have the capacity because we have a fully developed brain now.
• 39:36
  Right?
• 39:37
  We get to to make choices for ourselves.
• 39:40
  Maybe I can begin.
• 39:42
  I don't have to default to that way of thinking Right?
• 39:46
  That that was just an absorb.
• 39:48
  That wasn't a conscious decision of how I wanna see the world.
• 39:51
  And so I I see that frequently.
• 39:54
  People you know, they don't feel that the same shame that they've carried.
• 39:59
  They realize there was nothing they could do.
• 40:02
  They are worthy.
• 40:03
  It wasn't their alt and have different patterns, different ways of seeing themselves
• 40:08
  in the world that can often alleviate symptoms of depression and anxiety.
• 40:13
  And I think that's such an important fact, right, because and what we know sometimes with
• 40:18
  the medical community, they may not look at the other options.
• 40:21
  They might just just the, you know, the, medications with those, without looking at the
• 40:27
  psychological, emotional, or even the, you know, the implications of what may have
• 40:31
  happened.
• 40:33
  And, you know, what we're realizing now is what, what do most of us use?
• 40:37
  We use our brains and we use our body in our job clubs now.
• 40:41
  So obviously, we're seeing a more of increase in things around mental mental health because
• 40:47
  you know, before we would break a limb or, get a strains muscle, but now what are we doing?
• 40:53
  We're overworking, our brains, and we need to start to learn how to relax it, or even if
• 41:00
  there's things been things from the past that maybe hasn't affected us before, but now, like
• 41:05
  you said, when I feel safe, it comes up more.
• 41:08
  I, you know, I know we often joke around because when people come to CS and know, we
• 41:12
  have to make sure that nobody runs into each other, but I know over the years, we've we hope
• 41:17
  that, when people come to see us in our practice, that people will be sit in the same
• 41:21
  room.
• 41:21
  Like, they do their dentist, their doctors, you know, their lawyers.
• 41:25
  We're all it's it's the more that we learn to accept that our brain and our body is the, the
• 41:32
  same thing.
• 41:33
  And I know we're we're coming along, but we're ways off that hopefully with time, we'd be able
• 41:38
  to embrace, mental mental health to mental well-being as being a real part of our lives.
• 41:44
  So, Sue, so I'm sure everyone listening would love to reach out if they wanted to, get some
• 41:52
  support, So why don't you tell people where they can reach you if they're wanting to to
• 41:58
  have a chit chat or or maybe book some time with you?
• 42:03
  But I've just on a full time basis.
• 42:10
  Probably one of the best ways to go to my website, which is really just www.sumen
• 42:16
  learner.com.
• 42:18
  Then all my information is there.
• 42:20
  So it's suelymbur.
• 42:26
  Okay.
• 42:27
  I'm just I'm just spelling it out because I know this is a big joke with her and I because
• 42:31
  I never get her last name right.
• 42:33
  But there will also be a link with her website, at the bottom of the podcast.
• 42:39
  So Sue, as usual, it's lovely.
• 42:41
  We've had a a thanks so much for sharing your wisdom with us.
• 42:45
  It's been a pleasure talking to you.
• 42:48
  Yes.
• 42:48
  Thank you.
• 42:49
  Yeah.
• 42:50
  And, you know, for everyone listening and, I I often say that, we are not defined by our pain.
• 42:57
  And if anything more so with trauma, the symptoms may be fiercer.
• 43:03
  And But it doesn't mean that those people are ill willed or weak.
• 43:09
  It just means that getting the right support for those symptoms are difficult sometimes to
• 43:15
  go forward like we talked about.
• 43:16
  And to, you know, whether you are a manager or a coworker or a friend, or someone in the
• 43:22
  community that may know that someone struggles with something not to judge, but to, like Sue
• 43:27
  said, offer that compassionate kind word or a gentle smile to to say is there anything I can
• 43:33
  do to help?
• 43:35
  And, you know, online, there's always a lot of really good resources.
• 43:38
  You have awesome people like Sue in the community that can support you, or just to, you
• 43:44
  know, pick up the phone and and call, many of the resources that we here have here in Niagara
• 43:50
  or throughout, Ontario or Canada.
• 43:53
  So again, know that You are not defined by your pain, and that being authentic is something
• 44:00
  that we all are born in in the world with it.
• 44:03
  And sometimes our experiences might tarnish those things, but to know that once you clear
• 44:08
  that pain, whatever it is, the real use there.
• 44:11
  So thanks again for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne.
• 44:15
  If you're needing more information on me, I'm a keynote speaker and a trainer.
• 44:21
  I can be reached at Roxanne.
• 44:23
  That's thanks again, Sue.
• 44:25
  We'll see you soon, Kate.
• 44:26
  Bye.
• 44:27
  Bye.
• 44:28
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne.
• 44:32
  The roxanne Durgesh.com/blueprint.
• 44:45
  We'll see you next time.
• 44:47
  An authentic living with Roxanne.