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How to Tell a Better Story (with Alice Sullivan) · The Daily Writer

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: It was a dark and stormy night.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Or so the story goes.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: As a kid, I read the Peanuts Comic Strip all the time, and once in a while Snoopy would use those words, it was a dark and stormy night, to begin a story that he was banging out on a typewriter sitting on top of his doghouse.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: It was sort of a meta joke since the Peanuts Comic Strip was in itself a story.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, just like Snoopy, we are all crafting stories.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: If there's one skill in writing that trumps them all, it's storytelling.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm excited to share this interview today where we have a true storytelling expert who can help us use the magic of stories even more powerfully.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: Just like Snoopy, we're all crafting stories.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: If there's one skill in writing that trumps them all, it's storytelling.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm excited to share this interview today where we have a true storytelling expert who could help us use the magic of storytelling even better.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, hello, my friend.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: This is Kent Sanders from Inkwell Ghostwriting.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to this episode of the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is the show that helps you grow your business, amplify your authority, and increase your impact through the power of writing.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode today.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: As always, I truly appreciate it.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, today my guest is Alice Sullivan, a successful ghostwriter with multiple books that have landed on the New York Times bestseller list, among other places.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, you'll never know which books she wrote because that would break the sacred code of ghostwriting, but just take my word for it, she's a pro who is completely at the top of her field.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: In addition to being a ghostwriter, Alice is also a developmental book editor and an author coach.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: I got to know Alice a few months ago when I was going through the publishing PhD course taught by Honore Corter.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: I immediately knew Alice would be a really fun guest, so I've asked her to help us improve our storytelling skills here on this conversation.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you're going to learn about Alice's journey into ghostwriting, which is fascinating, why having a book is valuable, why people hire ghostwriters, and of course the main topic of this interview, which is the principles of crafting a great story.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: So without further delay, let's get right into the conversation with Alice Sullivan.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Alice, thanks so much for being on the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited about this conversation, and I appreciate you making time to do this.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, thank you so much for having me.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a million questions that I could ask you because you've been doing writing for a long time.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: You're an expert with this, you have a wide variety of experience.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll try to set aside my desire to dig into all the minutiae that some of our listeners probably are not interested in necessarily, uh, or but they might be, just from like a ghostwriting perspective.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: But before we dive into any specific stuff related to book things, can you give us a rundown of how did you get into ghostwriting?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because this field is mysterious to most people.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a good question.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the truth is that I sort of fell into it.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, looking back, um I graduated college really not knowing what I wanted to do with my degree, which is not uncommon.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but one of, you know, one of my minors was English and I had tutor people all the way through.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I got hired by one of my professors right after graduation to work on his material.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was the first time I thought, oh, I can get paid to do this, what you know, this thing that I've already been doing.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I started taking jobs in the industry.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: I worked for a company that put together children's cartoon workbooks.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I worked for the Tennessean for a period of time.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just anything with words, any sort of publishing company where I could learn the industry.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I finally was hired by Thomas Nelson Publishers, which is now HarperCollins.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they actually hired me to ghostwrite two books right off, except they didn't call it that.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't learn that that's what I had done until years later.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, oh, well, that was easy.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I actually worked my way, uh, I got hired by them and I worked there for four years and learned the industry mostly on the editing side.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I did also hire ghostwriters for projects.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I was dealing with their contracts and reading them, and and I really got a full understanding of what that entails because I was dealing with them intimately, you know, placing a ghostwriter for a project.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and 12 years ago, when I decided to go out on my own and be a freelancer, I just really knew that's what I wanted to focus on because that's what I loved the most.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can edit, I can do all those things.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there is some creativity there, but I really loved the process of storytelling.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what drew me to it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And quite frankly, it pays a lot more than editing does.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I'm file financially driven, I'm a single person and I've got this little empire.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um I just I love I love working on projects that allow me to showcase not only my writing skills, but their unique voice.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's kind of how I got into it.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: A little by luck and and a little by perseverance and just taking every sort of editorial job I could until I landed at a at a publishing house.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like almost every ghostwriter that you talk to says the identical thing of it's not something they set out to do intentionally, it's just they kind of fell into it.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: They'd they found themselves into it through kind of a twisting, winding path, which is so fascinating.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's my story as well.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's not something I would have thought I would be doing a couple years ago, but but here we are.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now, one thing I'd I'd love to ask you about, because I think the answer to this question is really fascinating.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Most people, whenever they learn about the concept of ghostwriting or get introduced to it, their immediate response is, well, isn't that dishonest?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Someone else putting their name on a book that another person wrote.
• 6:15
  unknown: Right.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if an author wants to have a book, how is that honest if someone else writes the book but your name is on it?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Can you and I have multiple ways that I answer that question too?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really like an education process for people and understanding how the writing process actually works and the creative process.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: But I'd love to hear how you answer that question because I know you probably get asked that a lot.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm yeah, that's probably one of the first two questions I'm always asked.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is that legal?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: The first question is, oh, you write the posts.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, so it is legal and it is very common, and um it's necessary.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a necessary piece of the publishing um industry.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so honestly, early on, I I was a little um when I was taking those first contracts, I was kind of upset about it because I was young, I was building my career, I wanted my name on everything to prove that I had done these things.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: The longer I've been in it, I've realized my, you know, I'm being hired to help somebody um tell their truth, write their story.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's 99% about them and 1% about how well I can do the job, I guess, you know.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I I don't uh I don't any longer feel as though if I don't get mentioned in the acknowledgments or something, I'm not really upset about it.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the whole purpose of hiring somebody as a ghostwriter um is to help you tell your story well.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's mostly people who are super busy CEOs or entrepreneurs or speakers, um, people that either don't have the time to write the book themselves, um, they're terrified of the writing process.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I work with a lot of people who've got um ADD, ADHD, uh physical disabilities, um, other impairments that prohibit them from either sitting at a computer and writing, um, or you know, it would just be an awful process for them.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so they'll partner with a ghostwriter and and you know, tell the story, speak the story out and allow the ghostwriter to create it for them.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: But it's still it's their it's their process, it's their it's their words, it's their story.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm sort of like uh like the puzzle master, you know, I'm just helping them put it together and and um presenting it back to them.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it's still it's still their work, you know.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's my work, I put it together, but but I'm contracted to do the job for them.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I don't I don't get upset about that anymore, you know.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now I just want to see them succeed.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: It almost seems like there's a there's a misconception that the general public has about what it means when you see someone's name on a book.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because most people think, okay, for example, I mean I could pick any any number of of the books here.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Any of the thousand books I have around me on my bookshelf and behind me.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: You could you could look at those and go, most people would think whoever's name is on the front of the book on the cover, they wrote those words as they exist in that printed form or in that ebook form in the book.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: But really that's never the case unless somebody self-publishes their book and they don't have it edited.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: In which case it's not going to be a good book anyway.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a book that that is a good book, there's always people involved in that process.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody ever writes that book as as it actually existed because there's always editors involved, there's layout people, you know, there's hopeful probably some beta readers and other kinds of people.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: So it's never a result of this one person process.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: So ghostwriting is just another form of of involvement and partnership and and everything.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it that's kind of been fun as I have gotten more into ghostwriting to to learn about that process.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And um it's just so much fun.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: It really is.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I agree.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you've had this question or or had somebody say this to you, but a few times when I've explained what I do, um, I've had people ask, you know, did so-and-so write their real book, or did so-and-so, and of course I don't know everybody who's ever, you know, ghostwritten a book.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you know, even if they did, like, does that make the story any less true?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So who cares who wrote the book?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's that's my thought on it.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: If it's that person's genuine story, it doesn't matter who how many people they had on their team, as long as you were entertained and informed.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same thing as the record production process.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you have Taylor Swift go into the studio, I don't know why I picked Taylor Swift out of the thing.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really like an 80s music person, so why I picked her, I don't know.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but because everybody knows Taylor Swift, she doesn't go into the studio and engineer everything on the soundboard and the microphones, and she doesn't do all that stuff.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: She has a lot of help to create something that sounds great.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it takes a team of people to create a great story and a great book in the exact same way.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's also ghostwriters in the in the music industry, too.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's just part of it, you know.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Gotta love those royalties also, you know, for songwriting.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe not so much anymore since everything's on Spotify.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's a big fight.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: So talk about ghostwriting from the perspective of of just what is the value of having a book?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people they don't know that a book can really help build your business, it can help increase your confidence, expand your mission, whatever your goals are.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: How can having a great book help to accomplish all those things that someone wants?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there are there's so many reasons to do it.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'll go personal reasons and then professional business reasons.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: So the personal reasons uh are sometimes the hardest to work through, but also I feel the most profound.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So um I work with a lot of um memoir uh authors.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so, first of all, nobody really is gonna write a memoir if you've had the most perfect life, right?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants to reason that like perfect.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's always people who've overcome something, like um, you know, divorce, an illness, the death of a loved one, um, just some crazy stories.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked with people who uh have been abducted, who've been born into cults.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everything you can imagine, right?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're telling me these stories.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: I would say the the largest thing to get past is the fear of telling your story.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what are people gonna think of me when I tell my story?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and writing a memoir can be a very healing, cathartic process.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sort of like, you know, not unlike, I guess, if you've been in any sort of counseling before, you're gonna have to relive parts of that story or all of it to be able to express it.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the biggest wins, I would say, on the on the backside of having written a book is that the people, um, you know, the authors feel such an immense accomplishment and confidence in doing this thing that they feared so much.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So there's like a great personal benefit there.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Another reason that people will will write memoirs, uh, it's called a legacy memoir, which is if if somebody is either facing a terminal illness or perhaps they are just older in years and they want their family and their community and their grandchildren and you know, siblings to to know what they stood for and the things that they accomplished, people will write uh a legacy memoir, almost like an autobiography, um, so that parts of them will live on after they are gone.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very powerful.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it gives them a sense of peace.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that can be a very calming and um profound process as well.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: So those are, you know, you can get some great personal um just some great personal needs met when you write a memoir.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then the business, of course, like there's so many, there's so many reasons why you'd want to do it.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: One is, of course, the financial piece.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're right, you can, you know, build a brand, you can create additional streams of income.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: When you have a book, even if you've been uh in your particular industry for 30 years, um, clearly you're an expert at that point, right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: But if you write a book, there's this perception that now you're the expert.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so now you take that book and you can do more speaking engagements, you can do more consulting gigs, and you can raise your prices because you've got this book as proof.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, you know, here's everything that you want to know about this particular topic.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you can raise your prices.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um people actually uh will hire a writer every 18 months or every two years.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's built into their company's marketing budget.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So they just have this new book come out every one or two years.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So they continue to do the marketing.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, they can do their keynote speeches, they can do their podcast rounds again.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: They have a new book when they go on speaking tours, you know, and so it's just sort of like a continual piece of their business.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it can be very, very lucrative business-wise.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: It definitely something magical about having a book.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's still a big, it's a huge accomplishment.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Whether or not you wrote the entire thing yourself or you had people help you do it, it's still your story.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And just the act of doing it is incredible.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is interesting that when when it comes to ghostwriting, it seems like people apply rules to books that they don't apply to other forms of entertainment or communication.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, whenever somebody listens to a president or a politician give a speech, everybody knows that that was probably ghostwritten by or it was speech written by someone.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: When you hear a song on the radio, most of the time that artist didn't write that song.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: But when it comes to books, somehow people get upset when they f when they discover, oh, this, the author didn't actually write all the all those words.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why that is or or why we apply those rules to books, but not other things.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I find that kind of fascinating.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is a good question.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if it's maybe like the perceived proximity to the person.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like if it's a song, you know, it's it's floating through the air, right?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's a book, it's a if you've got a physical copy, you're holding it, and maybe, maybe there's some sense of wanting to touch that author in some way, like wanting to be near the story that makes people hope that they wrote it themselves.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's an intimate connection that you have.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the reader and the writer connection, that's very intimate because you're spending a lot of time, especially if you're holding a print book, which I still love, print books.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's still something really magical and important about print books.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's ever gonna go, they're ever gonna go away.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, and it is kind of fascinating, the psychology around how people interact with books versus music or movies or or whatever.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe it's also like the Netflix factor where when you go to Netflix, you're just scrolling past hundreds of t digital titles and there's no emotional connection with those.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Except when I scroll past Star Wars or or something related to Batman, then I I feel like this emotional pull.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: As a 46-year-old man, that's probably not healthy.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: I probably should get therapy for that for that.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I think that Batman did not write that movie.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: I probably should get some help for that.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe adds character.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know any good counselors?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: I have a whole I can send them.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: So talk about for a bit what do you personally get out of ghostwriting?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Aside from you're making a living, there's the financial aspect, there's the having a job aspect.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people wonder why do ghostwriters write books for other people when they could just be writing books for themselves.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, I had Jeff Goynes on the on the show a few weeks ago, and I asked him a similar question.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: His answer was really fascinating.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm curious what your response is to that also.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I have my own response to that as a ghostwriter, but I find that that's a question that people have a lot of times.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you just write your own books instead of writing books for other people?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear Jeff's answer.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so my I'm I'm asked this quite often uh because I have not, so I've written 41 books and none of them are my own, obviously.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so people will ask that often, like, when are you gonna write your book?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: When are you gonna write your book?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I have two sort of flippant answers for that.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: One is, um, you know, I'm thinking about it, and maybe one day I will, right?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've got all the connections.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: If I wanted to write a book, I could, clearly.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I journal and I, you know, I keep track of my stories and stuff.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: But what's maybe a little more true is that I, if I write my own books, like I'm not going to be paying myself through the process.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very financially driven.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, like if somebody wanted to pay me to write my own book, that would give me a little more fire under the seat.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: But um, and yes, of course, I could sell my book and I could, you know, publish it and do all the things, but I really, I really enjoy making a living writing other people's books.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, that's just what it comes down to.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the personal benefit for me is that I always learn something.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: If I if I'm presented with a book and I don't feel that I can either connect with the message or, you know, if it's if it's tech related and it's over my head, of course I pass it on and I have a whole network of people I can refer books to.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's something I'm genuinely interested in, usually, usually I know like I'm gonna learn something.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna learn either, you know, a little more about their industry that I've been interested in, or I'm gonna learn how they overcame whatever it was that they did.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's gonna make me a stronger person, a better person.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna give me a new perspective on something that I did not have before.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I love learning.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a I'm a lifelong learner.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I'm not, you know, doing this, I'm taking like masterclasses, and I just love I love growing.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: I know that the I I don't, you know, I only know like the tiniest fraction of information there is to know.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I I always want to um be growing and and learning, especially with memoir material, you you can learn a lot about yourself and others and how to relate to people in relationships and with trauma and grief, um, all through how somebody else approached that.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't think that I'll ever get bored by helping people do this because I mean I'm always learning.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always learning.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I feel like with every book that I that I take on, I hope that I that I end that process with a fantastic book for them, but also that I'm a little bit better myself.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: What was Jeff's answer?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: He had a very well, as Jeff does, he he had an answer, he answered it in a way that was unexpected.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I thought that he would go into kind of this um more this flowery uh you know, Jeff expresses himself in some some really cool ways, and oftentimes it's unexpected, which is what makes him a great writer.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: And he just said, Well, ghostwriting pays more.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: He said, I can make more money with with writing other people's books than I can with my own.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, he's written some great books and they've sold very well, and and he's had a lot of success there.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I found that to be an interesting answer.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it just it just comes down to hey, if you're good at what you do, you can you can do really well with this.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And there's something to be said for for doing that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And also there's the you know, when you're working on other people's stuff, there's there's kind of a you don't have that emotional connection with other people's material that you have with your own and all the psychology that you have with I have to market my own books and all the reasons that stop people from being successful with their own books.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: You don't really have that when you're working on other people's stuff in a way.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll say, like, I don't know what Jeff's process is, and maybe yours is a little bit different too, but I love working on several books at the same time so that I can jump around.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that helps me a great deal.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I would get bored if I was only working on one book.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um my creativity works best when I can move from project to project because I I only, you know, I'll never take on two books that are the exact same.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I wouldn't do two uh two books by doctors at the same time because that would be I would be worried that I would get uh the information mixed up, quite frankly.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: But but if I take on two or three books at the same time and they're all different types of stories, I feel like that helps my creativity flow better because when I'm working on one, my brain is still thinking about like how do I create that segue in chapter three for that other book?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're you know creatively minded, which I'm sure you are, like sometimes the the ideas come to you while you're like checking your mail or in the garden or on vacation or something.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: It just your brain never turns off.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it's it just works best for me to be working on several things at the same time.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I never lose track of the voices, you know.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't mix stories when I'm working on totally different projects.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that's fun, and maybe I do have a short attention span in some ways when it comes to the story, because I can only work on one for maybe you know a full day and then I need to hop to something else.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I I love I love being able to pretend to be several people at the same time.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I just it's exciting.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I get I get paid to pretend.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like a form of acting or a form of theater in a way.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: It really is, yeah.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: I I love working with multiple people at once as well.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not always books, sometimes it's you're helping people with newsletters or marketing stuff or or whatever it is.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I find that something I learned with one client that I can turn around and apply to the next client.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then the further you go down the line, everybody's benefiting from all your knowledge and experience with all these different situations.
• 24:26
  unknown: Absolutely.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: I personally find a lot of joy, just like you were talking about in helping to tell people stories or helping to get their information out or whatever it is they need to do.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: For me, there's a there's a different type and maybe even a deeper joy that comes from helping someone else succeed with their goals than just working on my own stuff.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't oh gosh, and that's that's something we could talk about.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it probably is a wider issue, but I don't know how often you celebrate your wins.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't always celebrate my wins, but I need to, right?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't I think that maybe that's just something we as a society don't do near as much.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we finish a book, we should celebrate it.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: We hit a deadline, we should celebrate it.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: We, whatever it is, whatever our goal is for the day, for the week, for the year, we should celebrate that.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe that's just a little reminder to anybody watching.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's a great point.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Go outside and run a victory lap.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever you did is awesome.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Now let me ask you specifically about memoirs.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: I know that's close to your heart, and and you have a major focus on that.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say, uh let's say you're telling my story.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: If I've had some kind of a not necessarily just a tragic past, but I have a compelling story.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: How when you're writing a book, do you take those pieces and craft a narrative out of those?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of do you do you think of do you try to follow a hero's journey structure?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any sort of overarching structure that you try to bake into most memoir type or very narrative-driven books?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Or does it just depend on the project and and how you're structuring the flow of the chapters and the story and all, you know, is it kind of like a screenplay in the sense of you have a definite structure you're trying to follow, or is it just very dependent on the specific project?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I would say every project is a little bit different, obviously.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um the way I approach every project is similar, though, because I've got my own formula that I've used over all these years, and it is very loosely based on the hero's journey.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to start, you know, when I have people tell me their stories, we'll just start there.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I need to hear the story in chronological order so that I know the full story from front to back, like all of it in great detail, however much they're willing to tell me.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and of course, knowing that not all of that is going to make it into the book, right?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I need to know the entire breadth of the story.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I like to begin stories, much like any of the Marvel movies, or you know, any successful movie is you start in the middle of like some unexpected scene, right?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's chaotic, there's been a death, there's been a wedding, there's been an explosion, like something unexpected on screen is happening that really draws the reader into that specific period in time.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'll I'll ask somebody to tell me the whole story, but then we'll talk about like how do we want to start it?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: What's the best way to bring somebody in?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that will be like, you know, the first chapter.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, you can flash back as the topic allows and show more of the backstory and then sort of bring the person up to up to speed.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do a fair bit of jumping around if the story allows.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I don't, you know, I autobiographies, maybe biographies, they're chronological, and some of them are very boring.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can get all the information.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: But do you want to be engaged?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be engaged.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be just just educated.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be engaged as I'm reading, or I'm not gonna finish the book.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to keep people guessing, I want to keep them interested.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want to end every chapter with a paragraph or a sentence that makes the person flip the page just as soon as they're done because they can't wait to see what happens next.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I find that like you don't have to manufacture that in people's stories.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's incredible, but you know, there will be natural stopping points, there will be natural chapters that form as somebody's telling me their story.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in my mind, I guess I've done it for so long, as you know, as they're speaking, I'm picking out like that would be a great way to start that chapter, that would be a great way to end that chapter to focus on that scene, focus on that scene.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'm able to present when I create an outline, I'm able to present them with um really an overview of like, here's what I'm thinking, here, here's how I would suggest we write the book, here's the order in which I think the chapter should go, here are the main scenes.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think they really appreciate that because when I when I read a book, if I'm reading a really good book, I have to be able to visualize everything.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I in my mind, the book plays as a movie.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if that's true for everybody, maybe I'm just weird.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I see it, I see it as a movie, and so I want the reader to be able to imagine the story as it goes, almost like a movie, you know.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's important to me to draw people in with details and sort of cliffhangers and such.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I love thinking of of specific scenes.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: I do the same thing.
• 29:33
  unknown: Yeah.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a big movie, movie nerd, and movies are a language that people understand and they can latch on to.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's like the most common language we have in our in the world, really.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody understands movies.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 29:45
  unknown: Yeah.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as we start to wind this down, I want to ask you a couple other questions.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: I could I could go on for hours with the stuff because I geek out about it.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can do a part two some other time.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, part two.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I want to share a statement from your website for our listeners, for our awesome listeners, and dig into this for just a moment.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: On your website, you say, I specialize in writing stories of hardship and triumph, filled with honesty, grit, humor, and unforgettable voices.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm particularly drawn to stories with unique personality.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Books like No Reservations, Hillability um Hillabilly Elegy, that's a hard title to say.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Educated and one of my favorites, Eat Pray, Love.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: These personal narratives reflect universal truths while showcasing the author's journey through often unpredictable and memorable circumstances.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Now that that's a fascinating list of books, and I know you could add many more to that list.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: What do those books have in common and what are some of the things that that draw you to those books that we can incorporate into our stories as well?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Things that are, man, I love these in these books.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: I put these in my clients' books, and these are great things for ghostwriters or for authors to incorporate in their books.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is sort of a weird list, but the reason that all of those stand out to me is not necessarily the topic.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yes, they're all memoir-based, but it was it was how transparent the authors were.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So in every single book that I, you know, love myself or or that I get to write, I want to make sure that they are, that the author is very transparent.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be very scary, but I think it's necessary to connect with the reader.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because the reader is smart.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you have to assume that your reader is an intelligent person who reads often.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are withholding information in your story, they're gonna know.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna know when you're being vague, they're gonna know when you skipped over 10 years of of your life and didn't mention anything, and then they're gonna ask why, you know.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: So with each of those books in particular, like Anthony Bourdain is a lovable asshole, and it totally every bit of his writing.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just I can hear his voice in his, you know, in his writing.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And same with Tara and um Elizabeth Gilbert, like I got a very clear sense of who they were and what they stood for and their personalities that very much align with what we see on social media, you know, and what they portray themselves to be.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I felt like I was attracted to those books because it felt more like walking alongside somebody instead of watching somebody, you know, from a hundred yards away.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I felt as though I was with them in the high points and the low points, and I could understand what they were going through.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I saw a little piece of myself in each of those books because they were honest about struggles and um family issues and all sorts of things.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of my biggest uh one of the things that I push the most for my authors is to tell the truth, you know.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to show your diary, you know, you don't have to share all of your family secrets.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know some people are terrified about like if I read a memoir, do I have to, you know, tell everything?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer is no, you don't.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: You get to pick and choose what you want to tell.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: But what you do decide to tell, you have to be honest about that.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because your reader will know if you're not, you know.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, and there's a gracious, there's a gracious way to talk about anything.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've had to talk, had to help my my authors through really hard things, you know, like of course, divorce.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of my authors, her, her toddler drowned, you know, we had to talk through that.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've helped authors talk about abortions.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've, you know, and that's such a delicate topic.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a gracious way to talk about everything that conveys just enough that the the audience understands what you're talking about without you having to feel as though you've said too much.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's I think that's really an art.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: How do you handle it when when you have a client, you're telling their story, and they need to share things about other people, maybe family members or past colleagues or friends?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: They're sharing things about people that are part of their story, but they're not flattering things.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: Do they somehow do they sometimes have to think about, okay, legally, what can I say about this person without getting sued for you know libel or slander or something?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Is that ever a part of the picture for for clients who are saying offensive things about somebody else?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, it is part of the picture.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: When there's litigious information involved, I always suggest, you know, once there's a draft, a final draft, run it by your lawyer because they'll be able to tell you what you need to change.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um for my purposes, I need to know the whole story anyway.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: So whatever, you know, whatever is said, it's sort of like whatever happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever, whatever you tell me stays in my archive, right?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um The Vault.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: The Vault.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: But um, so I need to know the full story, also so I can advise you where I think you need to change this person's name or maybe change some identifying details about that person.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, memoirs can be tricky because even in a court of law, now I'm a lawyer, so I'm not giving you legal advice, but when I was working at the publishing house, you know, our our sort of motto and all stance on all that was that like the truth is the truth.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say it's somebody, um, well, I've had this happen a few times.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say we're the author is as an adult woman now, and she's talking about uh trauma that she endured as a child from her own family members.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was your own family members, so you have every right to tell your story in an honest way.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: You get to decide do you want to list that person?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to say their name, or do you want to sort of say it was a distant cousin, or do you want to instead say it was a neighbor?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's kind of your call.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I guess you have to to balance, okay, how badly do I want to share the specifics of this?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: And do you want to share it badly enough to where you're willing to defend it in a court of law?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And usually it doesn't get that far.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like, what are the rest of my family members gonna say?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or what is that person gonna say?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there can still be fear even in into adulthood, and you know, um, I don't know if that ever goes away.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you've endured a traumatic experience and that and the person, the offender is still alive, there's probably always going to be that like, what if they read the book?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: What if they are angry?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and those are kind of things you need to talk through, but in the writing process, I still say get it all down first.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do anything with a blank page, so get it all down first, and then you can decide later on with your lawyer what you need to revise.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: Are there any particular books as a writer that have helped you in terms of storytelling, narrative, um anything at all?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're a reader as well as a ghostwriter.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: So for our listeners who who want to be better storytellers or perhaps begin writing their own story, anything that that you would recommend as far as books or other resources?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I would say Stephen King's On Writing is pretty fantastic.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the second book I would recommend is Anne Lamotte's Bert by Bird by Bird.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: I love both of those.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's she's a beautiful, beautiful storyteller as well.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I love her spin on it.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh, you know, I won't I won't ruin it for the readers, but it's it's a really memorable story that she tells around her father and some advice he gave her about writing.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: And really it stuck with me, and it's so true.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like in this writing workshop uh that I'm that I'm working on right now, I'm helping uh helping people complete their first draft, right?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the um the math equation we use is but plus seat equals words.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to do it, you just have to make yourself do it, you know.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that that's kind of similar to you know, bird by bird, you just you just do it a little bit at a time and you'll get it done, you know.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Every day that you put off is a day that you could have written at least, you know, a hundred words.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say, you know, to people who are thinking about starting, but they don't they don't think they have the time, you really do have the time.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you just you know maybe think a little creatively about it, but you can absolutely take the time to to at least get started, you know.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: I never realized, you know, the reason why I do this podcast, a big reason why, is because I love talking to cool people like yourself, Alice.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I always get insights and learn things.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: And until this moment, I it never dawned on me that on writing and bird by bird, two of the most popular writing craft books, they're also narratively driven.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: That they're telling those those authors' stories in very unique and personal ways.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's interesting because the best craft books maybe are also the most personal and narratively driven.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: At least, at least the first half of Stephen King's on writing in that way.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and that's you know, I think everybody has their own learning style.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: I learn best.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I have actually, I was just telling somebody today, I have I read so much, I write so much.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, I have a really short attention span.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: I have a short retention span.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't, if I can't relate a story to um an example, like a personal example, um, or some kind of, I don't know, narrative piece that I can remember, I'm I'm just I'm not gonna remember it at all.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: So business books or even nonfiction books that don't include other people's personal examples in the writing, I'm gonna have a hard time remembering.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: The information was probably great.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: I probably enjoyed the read.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: But if there wasn't some like quirky um story told, I may not remember it.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's just what I prefer.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I I prefer reading about other people's lives and how they came to their own beliefs and why they do what they do, and just all the quirkiness about an individual author.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's what I love about it.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that impulse is what is really needed most in the world right now a curiosity about other people and their stories, about their lives and how they came to believe or to act or to to be what they are now, without judgment, but just about being curious and tell me more and wanting to learn.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's such a neat needed quality.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I I don't know about you, but you know, for me, um, ghostwriting has certainly been a way to do that.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I I know it has been for you as well.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it's helped to make me a better person.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And especially because, you know, we're able to write for so many different types of people.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I it helps me, it helps me grow as a person, honestly.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and I mentioned that I feel as though I I get I become a better human with each book that I do, but especially if I'm having to put myself in the shoes of somebody that I'm somebody who who's different than I am, you know, like I I have written for an African-American man.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I got to learn all about his backstory and a lot of the things that he had endured that I have never endured, you know, and it gave me a a better understanding of his community and some of his struggles.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then I've, you know, I've written for um people in I think six different countries now.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so it helps me, it helps me create a bigger world view.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I can only be better for that.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe there's an important principle at work here in when people are searching for a career, excuse me, or trying to figure out their direction in life, choose something that is going to make you a better person.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just an exchange of time for money or whatever it is.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: Pick something that's that's gonna help you develop as a person and help you to grow.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because a career should be more than just you're doing work for somebody, it should be a self-development thing as well.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: At least that's my take on it.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I've my son and I had, he's a teenager, uh, 16.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: We had this exact conversation just a couple days ago, in fact.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a great learning experience.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, professionally in my own life as well, like I think I've gone through phases of the type of writer I want to be and what I was focusing on.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: So even probably four years ago, I was still saying yes to absolutely everything.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, yes, I'll take it, yes, I'll take it.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Even though I knew I didn't have a passion for that particular topic.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I still did my best work that I could, but I didn't love it.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't enjoy that, you know, like whatever particular book that was.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I just have decided in the last, you know, few years, life's too short.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: And seen that now in the last three months of this pandemic, like life is too short to spend my time sitting at a desk for 40 hours, 60 hours a week, however long I sit, to tell somebody else's story that I do not have a passion for.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I fully believe there's a writer for every story.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm not the right person, somebody else is going to be the right person, and I don't have the right to deprive them of that story.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just how I see it.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's enough work to go around.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've got projects that I love now, uh, because I know that I'm gonna do my best work and I'm going to enjoy my time doing it.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then everybody else, I'll pass along and everybody's gonna find you know, I'll everybody's gonna find their perfect match.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I just I just believe that.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, for a period of time, if you're building up careers.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're building your career, of course, you're probably going to say yes to everything, and that's not bad.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I hope you get to a point where you are able to sustain yourself yourself by only doing projects that you love.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: And there's something to be said for raising your rates in accordance with what you're worth.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a whole psychology that comes into play there with a lot of writers and who don't think they're worth a lot.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that's probably a whole other episode.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: You'd have a therapist come on and talk to other writers.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're really worth more.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Alice, this has been a blast.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate uh your work and appreciate your approach and your perspective on the world.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: This is really valuable and helpful.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: How can our listeners get in touch with you?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe maybe if they if they would like to chat with you about writing their book, what's the best way for them to do that?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So my website is aliceullivan.com.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Easy enough.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: And my email is alice at aliceullivan.com.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: Very cool.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks again for making time to be on the show.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I appreciate your insights and um look forward to actually the next episode we're doing tomorrow with Honor Recorder.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, that's gonna be so good.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, and that'll actually come out very soon after this one comes out.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks again.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: This has been a blast.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that interview is a blast.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you're a storytelling geek like I am, but if you are, then you really eat up this storytelling stuff.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: I love storytelling, and I love it when we have guests on the show who can talk about stories because man, it's just such an essential part of who we are as people.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm so grateful that Alice was able to share on that topic today.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: Let me give you three takeaways from this conversation.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's lots more that I could that I could uh do as takeaways, but I boil it down to the three most important ones.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: Number one is the value of having a book.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now, you knew I was gonna say that, right?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, surely that does not come as a surprise to you after listening to this podcast more than one or two episodes, probably.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the bottom line is that a book is gonna go places that you cannot go.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: A book gives you credibility and it gives people a condensed way to consume your ideas and content.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, enough said about that.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Number two, how does the writing actually get done?
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's pretty simple.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: You put your behind in the seat and you write.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's no magic formula.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: The reason why so many people start books but don't finish them is simply because it takes a lot of effort.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want to write a book, you've got to put your behind in the chair, or if you have a stand-up desk, you can stand up, and you've just got to put in the time.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: Or in the case that you don't want to write the book yourself, you can hire somebody like myself or Alice as a ghostwriter.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: We put in the time on your behalf.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: Takeaway number three a couple of great resources for writing are the book On Writing by Stephen King and the book Bird by Bird by Anne Lamot.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: I really recommend those strongly.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: They're phenomenal books, so make sure and check those out.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I want to give a massive thank you to my special guest, Alice Sullivan.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure to check out her website, which is aliceullivan.com.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks so much for listening.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate you spending time with me today on this episode.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Remember that you can find lots more resources for writers at KentSanders.net.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: And until next time, remember that your writing has the power to change people's lives.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'll see you in the next episode.