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Diagnosed & Dumped | Why ADHD Diagnosis Is Just the Beginning with Beth Thomas · Thick No More

0:02
They said we were thin. They said we couldn't learn,
0:08
couldn't thrive, couldn't shine. But here we are, living proof.
0:18
The resilience rewrites the story.
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There are no limits. There are no limits.
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This is the clamor where voices rise, stories connect.
0:34
Hello everybody, welcome back to Fit No More season 2.
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Today I am joined by Beth Thomas, ADHD, a neurodivergent
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life coach, a founder of Neurodivergent by Design.
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Easy for me to say, Beth, how does adults understand their own
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wiring and design systems that work with their brains, not
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against them, and kind of helps move past that feeling that so
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many of us know all too well, particularly me being diagnosed
1:06
and dumped. Beth, Hey, welcome to Sick No
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More. How are you?
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Hello, thank you so much. I'm absolutely thrilled to be
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here. How are you doing?
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Yeah, Good, good. I, I listen.
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I, I, I love these conversations, particularly when
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I have people on with, with ADHD, because the first question
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with everybody that's been on that ADADADHD, this first
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question is always brilliant because they kind of say to me,
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well, I pick one, but then change my mind.
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Then I picked another one, but didn't shoot my mood for that
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day or that moment. So I've chosen the one.
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So listen, you probably know what the first question is.
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And so you are. Picture the scene.
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You are walking into a room and every time you walk into that
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room and you fling the door open, your theme tune plays.
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What's your song and why? Yeah, brilliant question.
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We had a good joke about that, didn't we?
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So I've decided to pick one that I'm not sure if it's going to be
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entirely all that motivational, to be honest with you.
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But it's a song that means a lot to me because it's gotten me
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through so many really difficult times.
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And as a person that tends to regularly change up the things
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that they're listening to and then not go and listen to those
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again. This is a song.
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The time and again it comes back to me, and it just means so much
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to me. It's it.
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Yeah. It's a real encapsulation of so
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many things. It's called Leave a Light On,
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and I particularly like the acoustic version.
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It's by Tom Walker. And like I say, it's probably
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not all that motivational in some ways, but me, you know?
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What a tune that is, what what what an absolute belter of a
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track that is. I'm so glad you think so.
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Like I say, it's just I love it them for so and I danced to it
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to help me regulate and to to help me feel connected with and
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express my feelings. So that's myself.
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Great choice. Great great choice, and probably
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wasn't easy. I'm probably halfway through
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this conversation, I think. Damn, should have picked that
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one instead. Listen, that's the life of when
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you're a Divergent, right? This is the life we lead.
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Absolutely. OK, So what I like to do with
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these sort of podcasts is, is we, we, we go back a little bit
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and, and sometimes I appreciate some people that can be quite
3:28
painful. So you, you kind of like go at
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your pace and you tell us what you want to tell.
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But I'd really love it if you could tell us a bit about your
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own journey and and what was life like before you recognise
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that you were neuro divergent. If you can tell us a bit about
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that, that'd be really good. Yeah, absolutely.
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My pleasure. So I was diagnosed a lot later
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on in life. So in terms of what life was
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like before that, I went through quite a lot of different
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experiences, Jay. So as a youngster, I was, well,
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fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, I
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suppose, very much labeled gifted and talented from an
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early age. So what that essentially means
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if you're not familiar with it, is, is basically an enormous
4:15
amount of expectation and pressure on your performance
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with basically no support to get there because you're gifted and
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talented as opposed to figure it out, or at least that's how I'll
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describe it. So kind of growing up with this
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label, there was always this underlying expectation that I
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just should be able to do the things and on paper to a certain
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extent I absolutely could. I was quite academically gifted.
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So generally speaking, I did perform well.
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But, and there is a big but to that it came at certain cost,
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the cost for a long time I also internalized.
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So for many, many years, I would compensate and I would mark
5:03
without even realizing I was doing it.
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And I would constantly try and find ways to, of course, meet
5:10
these expectations without stopping to think because I
5:15
didn't have the terms or the language at the time to really
5:18
consider the impact that that was having on me.
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And so it of course LED very organically into having the most
5:25
savage performance anxiety you can imagine.
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And of course alongside that a lot of perfectionist and people
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pleasing tendency. So I kind of jokingly, but also
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not jokingly describe myself as a recovering perfectionist these
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days because that was very much something that I spent so many
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years trying to be because I thought that would be the thing
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that led me to acceptance, to the validation that I seem to
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constantly be chasing. So that was a very interesting
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thing to look back on and reflect upon once I'd started
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obviously understand my neurodivergence.
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But yeah, to kind of put that all into a bit of a
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chronological nutshell if I can, I spent all of those primary and
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secondary school years with all of these expectations, all of
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these predicted grades on paper looking like I could perform
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very well, yet having so many hallmark features of ADHD that
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were passed off as character flaws.
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So constant comments around distracting other people, being
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very chatty, bubbly, energetic, can't sit still.
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I was often described like a tomboy as well.
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Tried brownies, didn't suit me. Ended up in Cubs.
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Loved it. Was the second ever girl there
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because that was back in the days when obviously you didn't
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have quite so much of that flexibility within spaces like
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that. And it was really difficult for
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me to find my place. I remember so many challenges
6:57
around social settings on my really struggled to sustain
7:02
friendships, not necessarily making them.
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I was pretty good at making friends, but I really struggled
7:06
to keep them. I struggled with bullying and I
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also struggled with very specific areas of education.
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But again, because I had that gifted and talented label, you
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know, people thought I was being dramatic rather than actually
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having a challenge. So it really, it kind of really,
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I guess because people thought you were gifted and talented.
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I've heard you say that a couple of Times Now.
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I guess that was masking the fact that deep down inside, no
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one really noticed that you were struggling and things weren't
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quite right. So they just let you carry on
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all these expectations on your shoulder thinking, Oh yeah,
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she's going to do this. She's going to get this grade in
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this and she's going to do this. It's it's tough when when when
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you're undiagnosed, It really is because you just really left
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just to get on with it and I can't.
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So you know, you're not supposed to have to play this, but just
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for if you had to answer. How old are you now, Beth?
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I am 29 now. OK, so this would have been
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really even now, you know, so coming up to you into 30, so
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those years then people were sort of talking a little bit.
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Obviously dyslexia was definitely a thing then, but
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probably ADHD not so much, right?
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For sure, for sure. And especially not in girls.
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And it's actually really interesting to think those
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because another quite prominent part of my experience,
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especially in those earlier years was actually my parents
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experiences. And I'll explain a little bit
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more about that. So whilst I obviously was kind
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of penned with all of these expectations, my dad was of the
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school of undiagnosed dyslexia, really strong, went to school in
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the 70s and 80s. So this sounds like it's had
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sort of, you know, some possibly parallel experiences to
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yourself, Jay. And I will never forget how much
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my performance in ways meant to him as well, because he never
9:13
wanted me or my sister to struggle in the ways that he did
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at school. So he always wanted us to have
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that kind of positive experience and to get a lot from school
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because he never did. He's a tough man because, you
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know, I hope to God I don't, but sometimes I feel like maybe I
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kind of like put that pressure on my kids sometimes,
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particularly my 14 year old who I has has gone through
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assessment and you know, they were like, yeah, he's you know,
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they give you this nice piece of paperwork back these days and it
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shows you how close you are to this, that and the other and
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blah blah, blah. But I do I, I'm not saying I
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sympathize, but I understand why your dad probably you just when
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you see something you care, then you think to yourself, wow, he's
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really good at that or she's really good at that.
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Like I do find myself like pushing.
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And I think to myself, no, no, I need to back off a little bit
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here because there's nothing worse.
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And like I say, you said that maybe two or three times in that
10:16
opening statement. Gifted.
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So someone must have told you that because he's a child, you
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don't know. You're gifted and talented,
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right? Someone told you that?
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Absolutely. Yeah, exactly.
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I was putting on all of the all of the programs, all of the
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accelerator courses, you know, every stage.
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It was constantly reflected back to me.
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So it started to become part of my identity that I didn't
10:39
understand but kind of absorbed because there's only so many
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times you can hear something before you start believing to be
10:48
true, right? And this can be said for
10:50
people's rejection sensitive dysphoria, people's, you know,
10:54
possibly limiting beliefs around their performances.
10:57
You know, whatever it is, when you hear so many comments about
11:02
anything being that in a positive or negative light, you
11:06
are so much more at risk, of course, you know, internalizing
11:09
that, you know, starting to think that there are other, you
11:12
know, character flaws, features or parts of your identity.
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So it was absolutely something that followed me for a, for a
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very long time. And it became something that I
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would almost use as like a, as a, as a measurement, right?
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So I'd use it to create this justification to beat myself
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with that metaphorical shamestick if I didn't meet
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those expectations. So, you know, ridiculous to look
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back. Yeah.
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So diagnosed what, what, what year, what age was you when you
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diagnosed? And, and I guess what did you
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start to begin to understand about yourself and ADHD when
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you're after the diagnosis? Did it did it help or did it
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make it worse? Really good question actually
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and I'm glad that you asked that because I think a lot of people
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tend to assume that that kind of a journey is automatically
12:03
positive for everybody and that's not always the case.
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So I actually had quite an interesting Ave. into assessment
12:10
and realisation, if you will, because most people, and again,
12:16
this is a generalization, so I appreciate I'm going to reply to
12:18
everyone, but most people will either kind of figure that out
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quite early in life. So they might have been
12:24
obviously assessed because parents and schools noticed it
12:26
or whatever, or they tend to go through life not knowing it and
12:31
then hitting some kind of crisis point that justifies further
12:36
exploration and, and looking for that reason for said brokenness
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that they feel that they, you know, are experiencing.
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And I didn't have either of those, Jay.
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So for me, I started working with a psychiatrist and it was a
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bit of a sort of happen chance, random opportunity that came
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about. And he happened to be a
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consultant psychiatrist who specialized in assessing for
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ADHD. So I worked initially as a
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personal assistant for a little while.
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This was back in 2019 to pop a time frame on it.
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So I started working for him towards the end of 2019 whilst I
13:14
was still working in a gym and figuring out kind of what I
13:16
really wanted to do after university.
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And as I was working with him, of course by March 2020, COVID
13:25
happened and everyone was in lockdown and I could not, you
13:29
know, just do nothing. So with all of this time for
13:32
oven furlough Lord ways to start helping him meet the dreams that
13:39
he's had in practice. So I helping him to expand the
13:44
team built 12 in the practice manager that through that
13:48
experience I started really resonating with people's stories
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and I'll never forget the conversation I had with him 1
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you know random afternoon. So gosh, isn't it really
13:58
interesting that I seem to be positively resonating with and
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connecting with all of the people you are positively
14:08
assisting with ADHD? And he just kind of looked at me
14:14
with that, with that look. Yeah.
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And it took a minute or two for for me to connect the dots, so
14:21
to speak. And I was like, oh, OK, that's
14:26
really interesting. So that was kind of first step
14:30
and I'll have to be honest and swept it under the carpet and it
14:33
was quick as I kind of brought it up for quite a while.
14:35
So it kind of was very, I'm OK. Well, I suppose that would make
14:39
sense, but also not really, you know, I'm fine.
14:43
So I did still have, I'll be honest and I'll own it, a lot of
14:47
very biased and ablest views on things like ADHD at the time.
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So I thought, well, no, I couldn't possibly be ADHD.
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I'm OK, I'm functional, I'm doing all of these things, so
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surely, surely not. However, of course, once that
15:02
seed is planted, you're thinking about it, you're starting to
15:06
notice things. And so gradually it got to a
15:10
point where I almost couldn't deny it and it was starting to
15:14
help me make sense of things that for years had eluded me or,
15:19
you know, confused me. And that really was the starting
15:23
point towards me really understanding myself a lot
15:27
better. Now, this was the same kind of
15:30
problem that trusted also said, look, you can't, you know, be a
15:34
manager forever. You've got to do something with
15:36
your ability to connect with people.
15:38
So I was like, yeah, fair enough.
15:39
And we looked into coaching, said had a background in
15:42
coaching. And we sort of found that, you
15:46
know, ADHD coaching was actually a thing.
15:49
And it was a highly recommended thing for people to explore to
15:53
help them build a lifestyle that works for them, makes things
15:57
like medication more effective, all of that kind of stuff.
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So I started on way to become an ICS certified ADHD life coach.
16:07
And it was the same kind of time.
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Like I say, I was trying to make sense of all of these parts of
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my experiences and my identity. So it all kind of converged at
16:16
the same time for me to start accepting that.
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But again, because I thought manage fairly well with a lot of
16:23
the holistic measures that I'd put in place, I didn't feel like
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a formal diagnostic process at that point in time would give me
16:30
any value. So I decided not to pursue it.
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And I got to a point where I thought, actually I am starting
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to struggle now a bit more and I feel like I might benefit from
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exploring some additional options that would only be
16:45
available to me through a formal assessment.
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So that took me a few years. It's good though that you, it's
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good that you realise that, right?
16:55
That shows, that shows, I guess acceptance, that shows that you
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realise, hey, you know, I now know, I understand what this
17:04
feeling is. Because we could, we could, you
17:09
know, when we took in 2019, we could have got to 2025 and you
17:12
could have still been in that process in your mind of yeah,
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maybe, maybe not, you know? Completely, absolutely.
17:23
And, you know, I'll even argue that I find myself incredibly
17:27
grateful and quite fortunate in ways that I had opportunities
17:32
and spaces to make sense of it, to figure out ways that I could
17:36
start to embrace what that meant rather than sort of spend even
17:41
more time trying to run away from it in a certain way.
17:45
So yeah, it's been incredibly brilliant for me to have had
17:50
that opportunity, or rather those opportunities to do so
17:53
because you're quite right. I could have still been sitting
17:55
here today stuck in those turn out some laws and not
18:00
understanding why because I'm still blaming myself, you know?
18:03
Yeah, yeah. Listen, first of all, thanks for
18:07
sharing now, because it takes, you know, like I say, I I let
18:10
people talk and I'll let people say what they want to say and I
18:14
appreciate some time looking back.
18:16
It's tough. So thanks for sharing that with
18:18
us all. And I what I do want to do in a
18:21
minute and is come on to the coaching because I know you've
18:24
got involved in that and I really want to talk about that.
18:27
There's a couple of things I want to go through.
18:28
First of all, something that's quite irrelevant at the moment,
18:32
but the first thing I would love for you to talk to tell us
18:35
about. I entered want to introduce you.
18:38
I mentioned it, used the phrase diagnosed and dumped.
18:42
I'd love to know, I'd love to get your meaning behind that and
18:47
why even right now we talk about 2025, Why are still adults that
18:53
find themselves in that position?
18:55
What are your thoughts on that? Actually, I've got many thoughts
19:00
strong. Here we go.
19:01
You're. Supposed to have, right?
19:03
It's supposed. To absolutely, absolutely.
19:07
So just just to also put this into perspective, a lot of
19:11
people don't realize this because we've still got so much
19:14
of a stigmatized perspective on it.
19:17
I think a lot of part of that is because the media likes to
19:20
sensationalise things. I think we've still got a lot of
19:23
people ISM. So, you know, there's, there's
19:26
so many issues at hand here when we talk about this, but there
19:29
are over 500,000 people on waiting lists in the UK alone at
19:35
the moment for adult aid enforcements.
19:37
I'm going to let them. Yeah, diabolical 500,000 people.
19:43
That is just ridiculous. Yeah, horrendous isn't it?
19:47
That's just ADHD alone. Just a DHDI.
19:50
Can't remember what the other ones are, but you know, we'll,
19:53
we'll take that one for now because yeah, we're only in one
19:56
episode. We'll.
19:58
Come. To the rest of a million people
20:02
in the UK at this point in time are stuck in limbo, feeling
20:06
broken, convinced that they're a problem, struggling and not
20:11
accessing support. Then once they do get an
20:15
assessment, it's often a very ambiguous process, not very well
20:21
explained to them with very little follow up.
20:24
So what I mean by diagnosed and dumped is that if you have had
20:28
the capacity to wait that process of time to get to an
20:32
assessment, which by the way, depending on the region you are
20:35
in the UK can be as long as nine years if you're waiting for an
20:39
NHS process. Once you have got, you're then
20:44
assessed and effectively given a summary of your assessment
20:48
process which will give you the outcome maybe if it has been
20:52
comprehensively a list of recommendations and then that's
20:56
that. There's nothing after, there is
20:59
nothing in place to help you process the enormity of what
21:04
that shift is actually like to live through.
21:07
Yeah, it's crazy enough. It's just close.
21:10
It's bonkers. I am, you know, we the whole I
21:15
got told you this the first time we ever spoke.
21:17
But the whole reason I started this was just about yeah,
21:19
because the word thick, what the word thick means to me.
21:22
But but it is to do with labels. And I actually, I knew I was
21:26
going to be speaking today. So I spoke to this lady before
21:30
and asked if it was OK. I'm not going to mention her
21:32
name, but after I did a podcast we were general called Andy
21:38
Stone several weeks ago, who goes into schools and talks
21:43
about ADHD. After that podcast, this lady
21:46
reached out to me and said that her daughter, who is 14, nearly
21:52
15, had been diagnosed and assessed.
21:55
And yeah, definitely ADHD and mild dyslexia as well.
22:00
And I'm going to quote, I've written it down in my beautiful
22:03
handwriting. This is what she said to me,
22:08
right quote. I kind of felt like I just been
22:13
had the words ADHD painted on her forehead, pushed out the
22:17
door, given a few leaflets and kind of that was it.
22:22
That was what she sent to me on Instagram.
22:25
And that's why I wanted to talk about this diagnosed and dumped,
22:28
because for me, it isn't just. It isn't just.
22:31
Yes, listen, you have to start the beginning.
22:34
The beginning is children, right?
22:36
But what we're going to come on to in a moment is something
22:38
which is really close to my heart, which is access to work.
22:41
But there are adults. There are adults.
22:42
There are people your age. There are people even my age
22:45
still in the system, while you said just waiting.
22:48
And when they get the information, it's.
22:50
Hey, there you go. Look, it's 4 letters.
22:53
You go now. Enjoy life.
22:57
Yeah. Absolutely.
23:00
It's crazy. It's because I don't have a
23:02
broken system. So listen talking about systems.
23:05
OK, so access to work. So I work as you know, in the
23:11
industry where we supply assistive technology into
23:16
schools, into education and into businesses as well.
23:19
So the business side of it, for people that don't know that are
23:22
listening to the podcast to give you a very quick explanation of
23:27
access to work. Access to work is, is the
23:30
equivalent of you being assessed as an adult and being given some
23:34
tools to do your job in the workplace, right?
23:37
Whether it be some assistive technology or whatever it is,
23:40
you need to basically do that now.
23:44
This, this, this, this whole access to wall thing, right?
23:48
It's supposed to help neuro divergent adults, right?
23:52
Tell me, tell me, tell me what you see on the ground.
23:56
I have my thoughts on it. I'd love to get your thoughts on
23:58
the whole access to work thing and a is it working?
24:04
Do you think what just I just let I'm just going to let your
24:08
ADHD brain run here. So go for it.
24:11
Give me your opinion on it. Yeah, I mean, you know, my
24:15
opinion on the system itself is that it's a great concept and
24:19
it's very much needed. It's also a concept that a lot
24:22
of people don't realise has actually been around for far
24:24
longer than people might have you sort of thinking.
24:28
So it's actually been around 70s and I think it is a fantastic
24:33
example of a brilliant system that was never designed to cope
24:39
with the demand that is at actually within our cultures.
24:45
So what I mean by that is that conceptually speaking, like you
24:49
say, it's designed to help people effectively remove
24:52
barriers in their workplace caused by their disabilities and
24:55
conditions. OK, that sounds amazing.
24:58
At the moment, I'm pretty sure the grant award has gone up to
25:02
over £62,000 per year. That is a phenomenal amount of
25:06
money. OK.
25:08
It's a phenomenal amount of money that is supposed to help
25:10
with specialist care and support working that is over a minimum
25:15
business requirement that can help with that individual's
25:20
specific sets of needs in the workplace, right.
25:23
However, because of a developed awareness, because it's been a
25:28
lot more in the in the media that sort of thing, obviously
25:33
the demand has risen. I don't know where the current
25:36
amount of applications lies, but I'm fairly certain that at the
25:39
start of the year and there was a backlog of around about 33,000
25:43
applications. So problem number one is the
25:47
system is not designed with enough resources to cope with
25:50
the current level of demand. So we've got backlogs because of
25:55
the surge in applications, they are now very insidiously
26:01
backtracking on a lot of things. So people's existing thing has
26:05
been slashed and cut without them realizing or having any
26:08
blustifications and new applications are getting
26:13
rejected or harsher. What's the word determinations
26:17
being made on the support? A bit more stringent on my with
26:21
the with the weather processing, yeah.
26:24
They're trying to be a lot more stringent so that they can
26:26
effectively save money on awarding people with the support
26:32
that they need and deserve. And one of the ways that they've
26:34
done that is they've changed what they determined to the
26:37
minimum business requirement. Now it's all a little bit shady.
26:41
So you won't really find any clear cut acknowledgement or
26:46
ownership of any of this happening.
26:47
It's all happening behind the scenes, but it's happening
26:51
because the reality is that we put on the ground on a
26:54
day-to-day basis aren't getting the support that they need.
26:57
And unfortunately, it's even more concerning that they're not
27:00
going to support they need because of the structure of how
27:03
it's all working and what's happening in the background.
27:05
And because case managers are the ones making the decisions
27:09
based on ambiguous subjective guidance.
27:12
Without the training, the caseworkers making aren't
27:16
actually trained to know what exactly is going to be helpful.
27:20
Even if they get the holistic workplace assessments and the
27:23
reports from that, they're still rejecting the recommendations
27:26
made from that too. So it's absolutely shocking to
27:29
know what is really happening for people on a day-to-day basis
27:33
and what. Did I don't know if I told you
27:37
this. We did a the disc for me really
27:38
highlights and I'm happy to share this.
27:42
We did a show me and one of my colleagues.
27:46
OK, listen, time flies. I'm going to say it was March
27:49
time, don't know, probably was it was probably January, but if
27:53
I'll enlarge and it was in Birmingham and it's a Nadek
27:57
show. Now that show is is is I would
28:01
say of all the exhibitions we do is a relatively quiet show.
28:05
It's it's steady. There you go.
28:07
As exhibition goes now this for long after when the government
28:13
made some announcements, some changes to you know, disability
28:17
and this that and the other. Now normally the Birmingham NEC
28:21
car park, then Aidex show, they're like they're like in a
28:26
car park or maybe a car park and 1/2 to the amount of people that
28:30
are coming in on day one, they have 4 car parks open and that
28:35
was because people were coming in.
28:38
Who? We're now panicking and we're
28:41
looking, and this is the sad thing about this, we're looking
28:45
for cheaper alternatives that they could buy themselves
28:49
because of fear of losing technology and losing things
28:53
they need to do day-to-day just to even function or operate.
28:57
I just think, like you said, it's crazy.
29:01
One person said to me, and you talked about the cues in the
29:04
weights. One person explained when you
29:06
talked about COVID early actually, and she alluded to
29:08
COVID. She said it was when like COVID
29:10
hit and everyone started buying toilet paper.
29:12
So that's exactly what this system is like.
29:15
Everyone's rushing out trying to do the right thing.
29:20
But the system, it's a it's a dated system that just can't
29:23
cope. So yeah, I take on board.
29:26
You said the other interesting thing I picked up from when we
29:29
spoke and, and looking at your all your lovely posts you put on
29:32
LinkedIn as well, you obviously work with a lot of businesses as
29:36
well. I see that, yeah.
29:38
What do you think? What do you think some of the
29:40
biggest misconceptions or mistakes you see companies
29:43
making today? Is there anything you kind of
29:45
share that you think is a common sort of mistake?
29:49
Absolutely. Yeah, I'd be delighted to
29:51
because I think, again, this would be a potentially
29:55
surprising answer that is often not what people think it is.
29:59
So I would say that some of the common misconceptions and
30:02
mistakes being made on a really routine basis is assuming the
30:08
standardized measures are going to work for everyone and
30:13
assuming that neuro inclusive practice in the workplace is
30:18
going to be costly. Yeah, and.
30:22
Absolutely. Yeah, right.
30:24
What we often find with the training, you know, that
30:28
shoulder tension just melts away because people can realize that
30:35
what I'm talking about and what we're training and what we're
30:37
trying to achieve with all of these types of conversations and
30:40
trainings and movements and things is not a level of, I
30:44
don't know, like sometimes it feels like we're trying to go to
30:47
war, right? But it's, it's not that.
30:50
It's just simply making sure as a basic foundation that
30:54
everyone, irrespective of the way that they process, think,
30:59
feel and function in this world are safe, secure, ported, seen
31:03
and heard and able to thrive as a result.
31:06
And that actually creating the space for them to do that is not
31:11
the impossible rocket science they might think it is.
31:15
No. And I also would add, I think
31:18
that's amazing what you've said as well.
31:20
The other thing that I think is is missed as well when you were
31:24
talking and it made me realize is it's not like you say it
31:28
doesn't cost millions and millions of pounds at all.
31:31
It really doesn't. You know, we, you know, we're
31:34
talking about a relatively small change and a relatively small
31:37
amount of fix, but the results of the back end of that fix are
31:43
incredible. What you would get from a
31:45
neurodivergent by accommodating them in the workplace, for
31:49
example, a small change makes a massive change out the other
31:53
side. And I think people don't don't
31:57
sometimes they only see, like you said, they just see a cost
32:00
involved with it and then kind of like all blah.
32:04
Do you think, do you think, do you think I'm not going to give
32:08
you my opinion on this one, but I'd love to hear you think it's
32:10
still stigma attached in the workplace if someone asks for an
32:17
adjustment to be made. I know, and I absolutely do.
32:22
You know what, Jay? I can tell you with certainty
32:24
that I know there is. So there was actually a Neuro
32:27
Inclusion at work report conducted and published in 2024,
32:32
so literally last year by the CIPD and it gave us some very,
32:37
very, very concerning statistics to say the least.
32:40
Over 50% of neurodivergent employees do find that they have
32:46
had negative experience around their neurodiversity or their
32:49
neurodivergent disclosure in the workplace.
32:53
And there are lots and lots of figures in there, So it's well
32:57
worth looking at. But it effectively proves that
33:00
we've still got such a long way to go.
33:03
Managers don't know how to support neurodivergent employees
33:06
effectively. Neurodivergent employees don't
33:09
feel safe enough to disclose or ask for support measures in the
33:13
workplace. So we've got such a catch 22
33:16
there of, well, what do we do? Because need obviously for
33:21
people to feel safe to do things like disclose if they wish, but
33:26
we also need to create environments where that safety
33:28
can take place. But we can't create those
33:30
environments if people aren't getting access to the training,
33:34
if neuroinclusive principles aren't being embedded throughout
33:37
the entire organization. And of course, we've still got
33:41
stigma, bias and shame creating the barriers towards, you know,
33:45
achieving those environments. So yes, absolutely.
33:50
It's scaring on it is, you know, and I, when we spoke, I said to
33:54
you that I know there's this one person in particular that
33:57
listens to this podcast meticulously week in week out.
34:01
And he's worked at the same place for years and years and
34:04
years. And he's too scared to, to, to
34:08
step up and say, look, I really need some support here.
34:12
And it's, it's, it's, it's heartbreaking.
34:15
It really is. And like you said, it doesn't
34:18
cost thousands of pounds. We're talking about tiny change,
34:22
you know, And I, I, you know, anyone that's listening that's
34:26
in business, maybe they should go away and pull those figures
34:29
off and have a read of that documentation, that study you
34:31
said themselves, because scary really is.
34:36
I really wanna yeah, it's it's it's not acceptable in 2025.
34:41
It really isn't what I really want to do as well.
34:44
I think it'd be really nice to give people an understanding of
34:48
of you mentioned your coaching earlier you know, and support
34:53
that you go through so neurovergent by design.
34:57
So you coach adults right there are what bit stuck in the moment
35:02
burnout. What kind of transformations do
35:05
we see when you start working with these people?
35:07
Tell us a bit about what you do and what you see in day-to-day
35:11
and, you know, give us an insight into it if you can.
35:15
Thanks. Yeah, I'd love to absolutely.
35:17
But like it'd definitely be nice to to bring up that, that the
35:20
energy after we've just had a really fun conversation about
35:24
how essentially terrible most of the things are at the moment.
35:27
So yeah, essentially I do a few different things and all of it
35:31
has been very much developed from the training, from the
35:36
personal lived experiences I've had, from the requests I've then
35:40
gone on to receive over the years.
35:42
So I do support people in a one to one capacity.
35:44
I often life coaching sessions. That being said, and this is
35:50
possibly outrageous, but I will absolutely not coach someone to
35:54
cope in an environment that is not suited for them.
35:58
So that's that many potentially controversial, but I honestly
36:02
would die on a help saying. No, no, no, I, we delayed it.
36:07
It was on last week. Trisha, who goes into businesses
36:10
and looks at the business from the ground up, looking at the
36:14
whole DER aspect of the business, she said exactly the
36:18
same. I'm so glad that you've kind of
36:21
repeated what she said, and I do listen.
36:25
It's not our place to tell people what they should or
36:28
shouldn't do, particularly in the workplace.
36:30
But if someone's not accommodating you, hey, listen,
36:34
you're smart people. There's some some There is a
36:37
business waiting for you, somewhere with open arms that
36:40
will give you everything you need to make your life so much
36:43
easier, right? Absolutely, absolutely.
36:47
And yeah, I mean, again, I'm, I'm a firm believer that an
36:50
organization who does truly, truly incorporate, embed and
36:57
illustrate their neuro inclusive practice through and through,
37:01
not just in, you know, the the actions they're taking, but also
37:04
their recruitment and onboarding processes, their policies.
37:07
You know, they're absolutely everything are, are the ones
37:11
future briefing their business. They're the ones that we're
37:13
going to see as household names in the next 10 to 15 years.
37:17
And I can't wait for us to be able to have a conversation at
37:20
that point and say, do you know what we were saying 10 years
37:22
ago? Yeah, that's exactly, exactly.
37:28
Yeah. Do you?
37:28
So do you see, you know when you do these, when you do this, this
37:32
coaching move with adults, do you see transformation and then
37:36
do you see change? Absolutely, absolutely.
37:39
So I think one of the particular areas that I tend to specialize
37:43
in is very much around the beliefs that people tell
37:47
themselves. So it's really interesting.
37:49
A lot of people assume that coaching is about learning
37:52
specific tools and strategies that will help them with a
37:56
challenge they're having. Now, I'm not saying that that's
37:58
not what we do. We absolutely explore different
38:01
tools and strategies that will help people in areas that they
38:05
might struggle with. But what we also so do that I
38:08
find to be particularly powerful and transformational is we
38:13
reframe perspectives. We help them to develop certain
38:17
things that may need a little bit of, you know, love and
38:20
nurturing. So things like their their
38:22
metacognition. And one of the most beautiful
38:25
transformations that I get to see is when people start
38:30
proactively sharing their wins with me as I start most of my
38:35
dreams, not all of them, but most of my with clients who feel
38:40
for whatever reason and, you know, a variation, if not all of
38:44
the following feeling very broken yet they're a
38:48
perfectionist or they're chronically overwhelmed.
38:50
Maybe they feel like they're constantly been burnout.
38:54
They're people pleasing, they're feeling resentful.
38:57
They're low energy. They never get to do anything
39:00
that fills their car. They feel, you know all of these
39:04
various different things and more and their coaching journey,
39:09
they start to challenge some of their possible assumptions and
39:14
beliefs and stories and narratives that they might have
39:17
about themselves and indeed the world they live in.
39:20
And by the time we get to the end of our session or of course
39:24
our journey together, they are proactively bringing to me
39:28
examples where they have reflected on their experiences
39:32
and dealt with something differently to how they might
39:35
have done initially. So maybe they didn't have an RSD
39:40
meltdown or spiral over some feedback at work and that helped
39:45
them not get completely derailed within the day.
39:48
Or maybe they had courage to have a difficult conversation
39:53
without people pleasing and just assuming fault or blame.
39:57
And it's in those transformations that I've got
40:00
goosebumps right now speaking about them.
40:03
And it's just the most phenomenal thing to see people.
40:08
Just start authentically, genuinely believing in
40:11
themselves and learning how to love who they are and how they
40:15
work, having spent years and sometimes decades feeling
40:21
entirely broken by exactly that. That's really nice mate, and I
40:27
love the fact that you said you got a goose from because that
40:30
shows you care and that's the most important thing.
40:33
I think there's a lot, you know, we we've talked, you mentioned
40:36
about, you know, these are the people we're going to see in the
40:38
future, the superstars of the future being worse.
40:41
And, and I think that's it's needed.
40:43
It what is needed right now is people like you who are prepared
40:47
to put their living arms around people and say, hey, listen,
40:49
this is what we can do. This is how we can do it.
40:53
And this will be the end goal. And the fact you care that it is
40:57
a beautiful thing, my friends. So it's a credit to you.
41:01
I had a, had a, had a trod through and I, I came across a
41:04
self study course that you guys do.
41:06
So, So what, what, what's the difference difference about
41:09
that? And who's, who's that for is, is
41:11
that different from, from the, you know what you're talking
41:14
about? Yeah, absolutely it is.
41:17
I'm glad you picked that up. Thank you so much for that.
41:18
So what I one thing I did learn through, you know, coaching for
41:23
hundreds of hours now and, and across an incredible variety of
41:27
clients that I absolutely adore dearly and they will make my
41:30
day, is that some people for lots of different various
41:34
understandable reasons aren't ready.
41:37
We fall one to one journey yet because, you know, coaching can
41:40
be hard sometimes. Like it's about sitting in the
41:43
discomfort. So it's not necessarily
41:46
something that people have the capacity for or the the sort of
41:50
financial situation for or the readiness for.
41:53
And I totally get that, but, and the big butt is they still want
41:57
change. They're still ready to do
41:59
something. So what I did was, OK, how can
42:03
I, how can I create something that closes that gap, right?
42:06
So, so how can I that level of support and insight to people
42:11
that you know, may not necessarily be ready or even
42:14
ever want something like a one to one journey because that
42:16
doesn't suit them or they're processing styles, but still
42:19
give them a level of value and support that enables and
42:24
facilitates their growth and their development.
42:26
So that's how I created neurodivergent by design, from
42:29
exhausted to empowered. And it is predominantly for
42:33
busy, burnt out professionals who are tired of feeling
42:38
chronically overwhelmed yet wanting to learn, you know how
42:42
to understand building systems tool strategies to to enable
42:46
them to meet their needs. It's a self-paced study so that
42:50
you can do it within your capacity at times that suit you,
42:55
you get lifetime access to it so that there's not that kind of
42:59
pressurized sense of urgency that might actually.
43:03
Yeah, seeing you've got to get it done straight away.
43:05
So I think you've got, you know, a limited amount of time to do.
43:07
That's really good. So it's for lifetime.
43:09
Well, that's incredible. It is, yeah.
43:11
And I was really firm on that because I did think about
43:13
different delivery models and I said, you know what, this needs
43:16
to accommodate everyone's different processing strength,
43:19
styles and needs and circumstances in life.
43:22
So it is a choose your own adventure model and like I say,
43:25
lifetime access. Do it as and when you need it.
43:27
So my hope for it is that it essentially creates a foundation
43:31
of resources that you can dip in and out of as and when those
43:36
various topics crop up in your life.
43:39
And you don't have to start at the beginning because that's
43:41
where the beginning is. You start where you are.
43:43
So if, for instance, you sign up to the course and you're feeling
43:47
really, I don't know, overwhelmed, then go and check
43:51
out the overwhelm. But if you're not feeling you
43:54
want to learn a little bit more about reasonable adjustments in
43:57
the workplace, then go and check out the reasonable adjustment
44:00
segment. And you will find that I have
44:03
created little videos that explain each topic and give you
44:08
a little bit of psycho education.
44:09
And then alongside it, there is a workbook that again, is
44:13
entirely optional. You can download it and follow
44:15
the exercises if you wish. And if you don't want to, that's
44:18
OK too. You're still going to get value
44:20
from it. All of the info are bespoke and
44:23
created by myself, and I'm also working on a very exciting
44:27
Volume 2 of modules in collaboration with some other
44:31
specialists to bring more insights on topics that are
44:34
outside of my scope but are still relevant.
44:37
So there's much coming up that's really exciting about it and
44:42
honestly it's just made the most amazing change in people's lives
44:45
already, so it's an absolute blessing.
44:49
That's amazing. So OK, let me let me pull back
44:52
on that then. So you just said about changes
44:55
in people's lives. It there's bound to be someone
44:57
listening to this over the next week or so when after its law of
45:02
this podcast that thinks, Oh yeah, maybe maybe I should have
45:05
a go at this. Maybe this is for me.
45:07
Give them. Can you because is it possible
45:10
you could maybe share a success story to show?
45:16
Is that OK? It absolutely is.
45:19
Yeah, it absolutely is. So for me, I would say a really
45:23
strong one that I absolutely love that I got recently.
45:26
So I got loads of high wins and I just love basking in their
45:29
success. Isn't that amazing?
45:31
But I'll be specific because of the time, right.
45:35
So I had someone come back to me quite recently in the last week
45:39
or so who had just done the the segment on boundaries and energy
45:45
management. And they had said, you know, for
45:48
the longest time they were constantly saying yes to
45:51
everything and wondering why they were so exhausted, really,
45:54
really struggling. They were completely fatigued by
45:57
the end of the day and they just felt like they were in this
45:59
never ending run. But when the idea of saying no
46:05
was ever floated, that just felt too terrifying, right?
46:09
But having then done some of the exercises in the learning about
46:14
how to hold healthy boundaries, how to value self worth,
46:20
etcetera. And then on top of that, look at
46:24
assertive communication because that's another really important
46:27
element that a lot of us can struggle with.
46:29
They'd layered all of that in together.
46:31
And you know what they and did, Jay, they said no.
46:34
They said no one thing and they didn't meltdown.
46:38
And they felt incredibly empowered.
46:41
And so do you know what they went on to keep doing?
46:43
They kept saying no things that didn't serve them or were
46:46
outside. Well, exactly.
46:48
And that's how it should be. You know, I mean, that's that's
46:52
amazing. So there you go.
46:54
So if you are that person listening, you know, hopefully
46:57
Beth will be happy enough and kind enough to share the details
47:01
at the end of this. And if you do want more
47:03
information and please do reach out to Beth and or me.
47:06
And yeah, that is that is totally possible where you could
47:10
be that person that has that breakthrough moment in their
47:12
life where they realize you've just done something completely
47:15
outside the box that you normally do, which is which is
47:18
amazing. You know it, really.
47:20
Is it really is? Absolutely Little little Dickie
47:23
Bird told me that you might have a little bit of a special offer
47:26
for for anyone listening today. Absolutely.
47:30
I'd be delighted to share because if there is one thing as
47:33
well, irrespective of all the things we've already talked
47:36
about today that I'm really firmly, firmly passionate about,
47:40
it's that this kind of support should be accessible for
47:43
everyone. So I would love to offer a 25%
47:47
discount to anybody who is listening to this podcast and
47:51
thinks, oh, I would like to give that a go.
47:54
That sounds like a bit of me. I need some of that learning.
47:58
I want to find out more. I firmly believe it should be
48:01
accessible. So I would absolutely love to
48:03
offer your audience a unique 25% off code to get Neurodivergent
48:09
by design. So I will send you the code.
48:13
You can put it in your show notes so that people can copy
48:16
and paste it, and that will probably be a lot easier than
48:19
trying to retain the information verbally.
48:24
That was so generous of you, honestly.
48:26
Thank you so much. And I know for the fact that
48:29
you'll get people reaching out. That's unbelievable.
48:31
That's so kind. So if anyone wants to get in
48:33
touch with you, are they OK to reach out to you on?
48:35
What's the best way to get in touch with you?
48:38
Please, absolutely. I I'd like to describe myself as
48:41
a permanently curious person. So I love being able to listen
48:45
and hold space for people. So if anyone wants to reach out,
48:48
I would say that possibly the easiest way.
48:51
You can book a free call and there's a booking link on my
48:54
website, sowwww.bethhyphenthomas.co.uk
49:00
nice and simple. All of my socials are on there.
49:03
You can book a free call, you can e-mail me, you can WhatsApp
49:06
me, whatever works best best for you.
49:08
But all of the details for all of that contact and social
49:12
information is all on my website.
49:13
Amazing. Thank you.
49:15
What a beautiful person you are. That's really, really generous
49:17
of you. So what will happen guys is that
49:20
will be available as links on the bottom of the podcast.
49:24
So all of that details beyond there as well.
49:27
I'll get the, the discount code for you guys to use and then you
49:31
can reach out to best directly. I mentioned to you, Beth, that I
49:35
only ever asked 2 questions, which are the same in any
49:38
podcast. The first one you, you give me a
49:41
beautiful answer to, which was the theme tune.
49:44
And the other one, which is 1, which is really close to my
49:46
heart. And this is what we finish on is
49:51
I want to ask you really what thick no more means to you?
49:56
Yeah, really powerful question. Think no more means to me that
50:00
you no longer allow or agree with the stories, the
50:07
narratives, the voices that tell you that you are sick.
50:11
And it is the transformative moment all moments, because it's
50:15
a journey whereby you Start learning how to love, embrace
50:20
and accept yourself for the honestly magnificent person you
50:24
truly, truly are. Lovely, lovely statements.
50:28
Thank you so much, Beth. Honestly, I can't thank you
50:31
enough for joining me. I know how busy you are and I
50:35
know how many lives you change. And I think it's credit to you
50:40
and testament to you that how amazingly quick you've gone from
50:44
2019 to 2025. Flip turned your life round,
50:50
called that tiny light some of us see at the end of the tunnel.
50:53
I made it a bright beaming light for everyone else to follow.
50:56
I can't thank you enough for joining me today.
50:59
And guys, listen, you've heard it right.
51:02
Labels that don't define us, right?
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You know, there is possibility for everyone there.
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So if you're one of these people that sat there and I know there
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are people and you're stuck in that job and you're too scared
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to speak to your manager or they won't make adjustments or won't
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help you, then then think about the things that have been said
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today. Beth Thomas, thank you so much
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for joining us on Thick Eyeball. Thank you for having me.
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Thank you so much.