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Alcoholics Anonymous: What Actually Happens At A Meeting · RECOVERable: Mental Health and Addiction Experts Answer Your Questions

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: You have an idea of what it means to be an alcoholic, but your idea of what that means is definitely wrong.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Recovery advocate Cliff McDonald joins us to share an overview of Alcoholics Anonymous and its role in long-term sobriety.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: And they think that means, unfortunately, I'm a loser.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a failure.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: What it truly means when we know what alcoholism really is, is that I've been struggling with a disease that is cunning, baffling, and powerful.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Recoverable.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Terry McGuire.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Today's topic is Alcoholics Anonymous, a free, widely available program that uses peer sponsorship, community, and its 12 steps to help millions struggling with addictions.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Today we'll examine how the program works, balancing its life-saving strengths with criticisms and its limitations.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: As always, we do not endorse any specific program or therapy on this podcast.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Our goal is simply to share clear information about available options so that you can make informed decisions for your own recovery.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Joining us is recovery advocate and colleague Cliff McDonald.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And he has been researching, studying, and working the AA program for a decade.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Terry.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me today.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking really forward to learning how the program works for you and what you've witnessed over all of that time in terms of how it works for other people.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate your willingness to also address some of the criticisms and questions about it.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's my pleasure to be here.
• 1:46
  unknown: Thanks.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to start with our lightning round and myth or fact.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you just answer myth or fact in, you know, 30 to 60 seconds.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Alcoholics Anonymous is a religious organization.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is a myth.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: There is a concept of a higher power that is a part of the program.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: That is, however, a higher power of your understanding.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's extremely loose.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: There is a spiritual element.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Spirituality and religion are very, very, very different.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: There was an influence, a strong influence, with the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous with a Christian group called the Oxford Group, but it is absolutely not a religious group.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Alcoholics Anonymous bans or discourages members from taking prescribed psychiatric medications.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is a myth.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Alcoholics Anonymous does not have a lot of rules.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, there are really no rules.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: There are uh 12 steps and 12 traditions.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: So there are no guidelines to how you're supposed to live your life.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Alcoholics Anonymous is completely free to join and attend.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is a fact.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we are self-supporting through our own contributions.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh again, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the 12-step movement has expanded beyond alcohol.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there are a lot of 12-step programs for other substances, for example.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if that was, say, uh cocaine anonymous or uh cocaine users anonymous, the only requirement for membership would be a desire to stop using cocaine.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Alcoholics Anonymous or AA meetings are run and facilitated by licensed healthcare professionals.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: That is a myth.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: AA meetings are not run by licensed healthcare professionals.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: AA meetings are run by the members of Alcoholics Anonymous.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they're even run by people that haven't been in the program for too long.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: It could be, there could be an AA meeting that happens to be run by a licensed healthcare professional, but that certainly is not a requirement.
• 4:00
  unknown: Okay.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact, you must identify yourself as an alcoholic to attend an AA meeting.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: That is a myth.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: There are different types of AA meetings.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: There are open meetings, which are open to uh anyone.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: You do not have to identify as an alcoholic.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: There are also closed meetings.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So closed meetings historically have been reserved for people who identify as alcoholic.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: And why would someone go to an open meeting if they do not identify as being an alcoholic?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've been in open meetings where there have been people who identify as a friend of the program.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: They might be there to support a loved one.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they might be there to learn.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they might be there because they think it might be helpful in some way to them.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone is dealing with certain things.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And my experience has been that people that go to open 12-step meetings with an open mind and an open heart come away feeling much better after the meeting.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact, Alcoholics Anonymous keeps central records and membership rosters.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: That is a myth.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: The uh anonymity is extremely important.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so there is no record keeping of attendance or anything like that.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, usually people aren't even sharing their full name.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: It would be first name, last initial, John S, right?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Robert T.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Cliff M, for example.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Court systems can mandate that people attend AA meetings.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if this is myth or fact.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know that court systems can strongly recommend and they often do.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if they can mandate.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: However, I know I don't see this as much, or we don't see this as much as we used to.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: It would be common to be at a meeting with someone that is getting something signed.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think they bring that back, possibly to a parole officer or something for kind of proof that I did in fact go to this meeting.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So for that person, it would not be an anonymous experience, but it is by design that way.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: They could maintain their anonymity at the meeting.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: However, they would be bringing back some sort of proof of attendance to some sort of legal entity.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Alcoholics Anonymous is officially opposed to medication-assisted treatment or MAT, like naltrexone or buprenorphine.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Myth.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Again, there are not rules or or standards for people attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: There might be some individuals that express opinions, but that is absolutely not a part of the program.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: The opinion being you're not really sober if you're using any substance.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think there had been a group or some people that would, you know, the goal is abstinence, right?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: And an alcoholic, as described in the book, it shares that we're not safe drinking ever.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And once we identify as a real alcoholic, you're not going to go back to being a casual drinker.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And for that matter, uh, you shouldn't use any mind-altering substances.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: But this can get very gray.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's really important that your program is your program.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone has a different program.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot that is uh interpretation.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think really the goal is that people start to use this program and their lives get better.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: The concept of harm reduction is popular these days.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: My guess is that the co-founders, Bill and Bob, would have been big proponents of harm reduction.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's called the design for living.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if our lives are getting better, then the program is successful.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Let me do that again.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Myth or fact.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Alcoholics Anonymous has a top-down leadership structure that enforces meeting rules globally.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Myth.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: There are no leaders or managers or bosses.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: There is no hierarchy.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: We are all trusted servants.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Last one, myth or fact.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: AA claims to be the only effective way to get sober.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Myth.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even really need to elaborate there.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's just something that they would never claim.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, very open-minded.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, being open-minded, willing, and honest are three of the things that we're told are required to work a good program.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: So if uh if someone is uh making progress with recovering from alcoholism in any way, that should be celebrated.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now we get to the questions where you can answer longer.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And these come from YouTube, TikTok, Google, and Reddit.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Most people have probably heard of Alcoholics Anonymous or AA, but what is it actually?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of people.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is the preamble who share their experience, strength, and hope with each other that they can solve their common problem and recover from alcoholism.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's ingrained in my head.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's how we start every meeting.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's an organization that was formed in 1935.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it was formed uh to help people recover from alcoholism.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: At that time, alcoholism was, as it is today, a significant problem that had a very negative impact on society.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: There had been several temperance movements, uh, including a group called the Washingtonians, that tried uh to form, you know, a group to help people to get sober and to make their lives better.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, Alcoholics Anonymous is the one that has certainly stood the test of time, 91 years old today, millions of members worldwide.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really an organization that people can join very, very easily.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Fellowship is a big part of the organization.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think the AA model is so critical in today's recovery landscape when access and affordability are such monumental barriers to people getting care and recovery support that they need?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, it's extremely accessible.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's free.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, anyone can go to an AA meeting almost any time and any, any, anywhere.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it has tremendous accessibility and availability.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's essentially group therapy uh for free.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: You can throw a dollar in the hat.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's the seventh tradition.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we are self-supporting through our own contribution.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: So at a meeting, a hat will be passed or a bucket, and you can throw in a dollar or five dollars if you want or nothing.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's extremely accessible, it's extremely available.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: There is no copay, there is no deductible.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and a huge part of this is fellowship and doing this together.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: This disease, I believe in the disease concept of alcoholism.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: So does the AMA, and it has for a long time.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, unfortunately, the disease renders the one who is suffering isolated.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And most alcoholics end up alone and shut off from the world.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a very, very lonely, dark place.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people will say something like, the disease wants you alone, so it can finish the job.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a terminal disease.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're told in the doctor's opinion of the big book.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: That means it's fatal.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: This disease will kill you.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's high morbidity and high mortality.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: When we're together with other human beings, first of all, we can't be as stuck in our own head, right?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm with other people, it's not all about me anymore.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um, that's good.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we recover together, and the fellowship is a huge part of the program.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: People that really work the program will get a sponsor.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So a sponsor is essentially a coach.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So this is uh someone that you work with really closely.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a, you know, a teacher-student relationship, a coach-player relationship, a mentor-mentee relationship.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's someone who's had success with this program that shows you exactly how to do it.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's a beautiful program.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: So many people come into this program not knowing what it is.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people even have kind of negative perceptions about it.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of misunderstandings.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if they really do work the program, there's amazing results that come out of it.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I was certainly surprised at how many friends I've developed from being in this program.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's also um, you know, an element of a common struggle.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: So when we've recovered from the same thing together, there's a shared identity that like we beat this thing together and now we're fighting this thing together.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it's pretty cool to be on a team like that.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And for a lot of us too, it's it's a disease that has hurt a lot of communities and a lot of families.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um, once we get a little bit of clarity and we can see that this thing has hurt my people, I don't identify as a fighter, but uh, this is one thing that is, I think, worth fighting.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um we can't we can't do it on our own.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that there's there's power in the group, that's for sure.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell To that theme, what is the emotional feeling when you've been isolated by your alcoholism and you believe you've made I'll say such a mess of your life that no one would possibly understand, and you walk into a room full of people who do, what's that like?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's really powerful.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you hear early people in this program are identified as newcomers, and newcomers get a lot of advice.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, one of them is keep coming back.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh keep coming back.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: You hear that a lot.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Keep coming back.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: One one of the ideas with that is that if you come back enough, you're gonna hear someone share their story, which will sound like your story.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we call that identification.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: The book does that.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: The book was written in 1939.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So AA created 1935.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Four years later, the big book is what it's called, right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's the nickname.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that stems from the fact that when it was first published in 1939, they were deliberate with using extremely big font and the highest quality paper.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: The book cost back then equivalent of$54 today.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: So um, it's, you know, 45,500 pages.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: The book talks a lot about what it truly is to be an alcoholic.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: The first chapter is Bill's story, and he describes how his life fell apart, and he kept going back to using alcohol, and it got worse and worse.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's a chapter called More About Alcoholism.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And when you read this with an open mind, you'll read these stories and you're like, wow, this sounds exactly like what's happening to me or what has happened to me.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go to a meeting and you hear people share their stories.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: People share their stories.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's a major part of meetings, and a lot of meeting formats have people sharing their stories, and you realize I'm not the only person that has ever lied about how much I drink.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not the only person that has ever waited outside a liquor store at the wrong time of day to get something because I needed it.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not the only person that has gotten into trouble, right?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because of my drinking.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: So then once that that concept of identification allows you to lean in, be like, well, maybe I do have this thing.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a huge, huge inflection point.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Even that just thinking, okay, that this sounds like me, but these people like they're not that way anymore.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, their life looks pretty good.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll keep going.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: So there's the identification, there would be less isolation because you're physically there, a reduction in shame, I'm assuming, and hope starting to seem possible.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um there's a concept of a moment of clarity.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh again, keep coming back.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you do, there there needs to be an illumination of some sort.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: A light has to go on somehow.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, it's an inside job.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the likelihood of that happening is much greater if you keep going, right?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: The more at bats you get, the more likely you're gonna get a hit.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: So absolutely, hope becomes a part of it.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of hope can come from seeing someone who's doing really, really well.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then they share with you what a disaster they were.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's almost incredible when you see, wait, you were in jail, you were estranged from your family, you lost a job.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like you're doing really well today.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that that can give a lot of hope.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the shame component is high.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Almost every person that would identify as an alcoholic or an addict has done some things when in the throes of addiction or alcoholism that they hadn't done before.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a brain disease, and it impacts the frontal cortex, which is your decision-making area of the brain, your cognitive functioning or lack of cognitive functioning, and you don't make good decisions.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you don't make good decisions and you don't feel good about those decisions you've made.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a, I think, a high degree of shame.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: There also is a, you know, components of the program that help you to resolve that.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: How does someone know when their drinking has gotten to a point that it is a problem for them and that they need some support, possibly including AA?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: How is my how do I know if my drinking is a problem?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think a couple of things.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: What I was told was a simple to question test.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Have you tried to stop drinking on your own and failed?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: If the answer is yes, you might have a problem.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I had a bad weekend, I had a bad Saturday night, um, and someone was mad at me.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: My wife, my friend, whatever it is.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know what?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not drinking anymore.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I made it two weeks.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, I can drink now.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: I may I see, I I made it two weeks, I I can quit.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and if that repeats over and over again, the pattern would be drink, trouble, I'm not drinking, drink, trouble, I'm not drinking.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that would be the first question that a lot of people would say.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Have you tried to stop on your own and failed?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Question two do you struggle with how much you consume once you start?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this thing called the phenomenon of craving that Dr.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Silkworth introduced in the doctor's opinion in the book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And this suggests that the alcoholic is different than the normal person.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Once I start, I can't stop.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that is, every alcoholic that I know has said that there just wasn't this shutoff valve.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you'll hear a lot of normal people have a drink or two, and then they say, Oh, I was feeling different or out of control.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I had to stop.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's almost the exact opposite for an alcoholic.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: That means it's time to go into second gear or third gear.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And how many times has the alcoholic said, I'm gonna have two beers or even four or six, which is high consumption?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then it ends up being, you know, a high multiple of that.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: So those two questions have you tried to stop on your own and failed?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: When you start, do you struggle to control how much you take?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: If the answer to either or both of those is yes, you may have a problem.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Remember the line in a song, one is one too many, when one more is never enough.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard one is too many, 10 isn't enough.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is true because at some point it worked.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: I know for me, I started drinking as a young teenager, 13.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it worked.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: I I had a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety, you know, alcohol helped me feel like that was gone.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people can relate to that.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it works, right?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, uh it you it loosens you up, it's a depressant, uh, a sense of ease and comfort, but then it doesn't work.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So what happens to the alcoholic or the addict is, and this is you know, part of the insidious nature of it, you still think it's gonna work.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: I just need more or a different variety.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're still searching for that magic, but you're never gonna get that magic again.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard this with other drugs too.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: You hear a lot of specifically with opiates and with people that use heroin, they say that first high is what they're always chasing, and they never get it.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, they think the answer is more.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And with that specific drug, it leads to overdoses and death.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So Okay.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Tens of thousands of people each month go online and ask some version of what actually happens at an AA meeting.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, can you tell somebody new to the program what to expect?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have Have to introduce themselves?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have to tell their dirty story?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: So what usually happens at an AA meeting, there's many common things that will happen, but there's also a lot of differences in meetings.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been able to go to meetings in many different parts of the country, and there's different formats.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing I would say is you would be really pleasantly surprised at how happy people are, how friendly people are, and how much laughter there is.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's always coffee.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you get there and people will know you're walking into a meeting where many of the people there go to that meeting frequently.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're regular members of that group.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: So they'll know that you're new and they'll greet you very, very warmly.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's typically a pattern of how the meeting opens.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: It may open uh with a moment of silence for the still-suffering alcoholic, followed by the serenity prayer.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's very common.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Then typically uh a volunteer would read the AA preamble, um, which ends with our primary purpose to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, then it's really common for them to read the beginning of chapter five from the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: The that chapter is called How It Works.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's page 58, 59 of the book.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it starts with rarely have we seen a person failed who has thoroughly followed our path.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it lays out the program, and that's when we are first introduced to the 12 steps.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that that's a fairly lengthy uh reading.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Then after how it works, um, there would be um AA announcements that would be shared.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: If there's any, you know, celebrations or events coming up.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we would ask if uh anyone is celebrating an AA anniversary, which is always really fun.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they also typically ask, is this anyone's first meeting of AA?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if it was your first meeting, you would raise your hand and they would welcome you.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or many of the meetings ask, is it anyone's first meeting after a drink?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: So anyone coming back after they went back out is the term that a lot of people use.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that is typically the the beginning phase of the meeting.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's different formats.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: If it's a speaker meeting, someone would speak and they would share their experience, strength, and hope.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or another way of explaining how the individual story usually goes is what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then after the speaker meeting, uh, there could be an opportunity to share.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: That could be going around a circle, or it could be popcorn style, where people just contribute.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes the the speaker meeting is the entirety of the meeting.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: A very common format also is after the um beginning phase of the meeting, someone would read something.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, a common format is a thought for the day, a meditation for the day, and a prayer for the day.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Hazleton Betty Ford publishes a great book that has one for every day of the year.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and after the reading is shared, the meeting becomes open and anyone is is um is able to share what they're thinking or why they're here today or what's on their mind or a request for help.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're not supposed to use crosstalk, which means I'm not supposed to talk at you or anything.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and hopefully the input is focused on a solution.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes people will do, you know, drunkalogues or share stories.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh um in the AA preamble, it shares that we uh are not allied with any sect denomination, uh, does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: So for those reasons, it usually is all about recovery from alcoholism.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: You don't hear people talking about politics or complaining about anything.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it usually is pretty focused on recovery.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And when you say that people can talk, whether it's passed around or uh popcorn style, there's no obligation to share.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: So often, even if it's a format where it does go um around a circle, right?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you can see that there's an order here.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: If it came to me, I could just simply say, uh, my name is Cliff, I'm an alcoholic, I'm gonna pass today.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm just gonna listen today, or I'll share the time.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: You just said, so I'm Cliff, I'm an alcoholic.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: There are people, and we're going to get to that, who don't want to identify as the part of themselves, especially years later, right?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: If I have not had a drink in, say, a decade.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Do I have to say I'm Terry?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an alcoholic.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't want to be identified that way.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is a production of recovery.com.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Getting help for an addiction or mental health concern is one of the best decisions you will ever make.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: But once you make that decision, it can be tough to know what to do next.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we built recovery.com.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's the best place to find mental health and addiction treatment for anyone, anywhere.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how it works: search over 22,000 facilities, compare your options, and connect directly with treatment providers that meet your needs.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if you need treatment that goes beyond an occasional therapy session, go to recovery.com.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Your recovery starts today.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I go to meetings uh often where people don't identify as an alcoholic.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: No one's going to ask you to leave.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um the closed meetings typically are for people that do identify as alcoholic, but even in those meetings, um, sometimes people don't identify as an alcoholic.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh no one is saying you need to leave because you didn't identify as an alcoholic.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it is weird though, the first time, the first time you you say that, it it it's different because you don't know what that means.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: You have an idea of what it means to be an alcoholic, but your idea of what that means is definitely wrong.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: So most people, when they're saying they're like, oh man, what?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they think that means, unfortunately, I'm a loser.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a failure, I'm fill in the blank, whatever.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Negative, negative, negative.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: What it truly means when we know what alcoholism really is, is that I I I've been struggling with a disease that is cunning, baffling, and powerful.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's really what it means.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: It would be similar to someone saying, I have diabetes, or I'm struggling with cancer, or fill in the blank with any other disease.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: That is really what it means.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you don't know that when you get in in the beginning.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna devote, you brought up the 12 steps and we are gonna do an entire episode and step through each of the 12 steps.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: But what do they actually ask someone to do as a brief overview?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: What do the 12 steps ask you to do?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the 12 steps are a program of recovery.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: The steps are a way for us to recover from alcoholism.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And they are intentional with being done in a sequential order.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do step nine before you do step two.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really helpful to have a guide to take you through the 12 steps.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, somewhere along the way, the obsession to drink will be gone.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that is a very, very quick, sudden thing, which is surprising to the alcoholic.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I didn't think about drinking today.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very helpful to have a guide that would be the sponsor to take you through the steps.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot of work.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you're gonna go places you haven't gone before and address some things you haven't addressed before.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: It does work.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: They say it works if you work it.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: If someone's been putting off their first meeting out of fear or shame, what do you want them to understand about an AA meeting and the program itself?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very, very open, welcoming community.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: We want you with us.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: There is no fear, there shouldn't be any fear or shame or guilt.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's a great team.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And these people are there to help each other.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is the whole purpose of this thing.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, and any of those negative emotions of fear, shame, embarrassment, guilt should not be correlated with having a sickness.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what this is.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we're all sick, we have the same thing, and we are in a uh a group together to recover from this same sickness that we have.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: But a very, very warm, welcoming community.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: I understand you're not a spokesperson for Alcoholics Anonymous, but you have been working the program for a decade.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: How has AA impacted your personal recovery?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: I am very surprised at uh how involved I am with the program and how much I use the program.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Some people say that the 12 steps are a design for living, and this program is a design for living that works in hard times.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: It also works in good times.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So at the conclusion of the 12 steps, step 12 is having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we try to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the way that I understand that is that once I recover from this, I've used this program to recover from this terminal illness, and I have recovered, then I have a responsibility to help other people, and I should use the things I've learned from this program in all of my life with my work, with my family, with my friends.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really helpful for this alcoholic to have a program.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of us have done well in life when we have structure and you have a playbook, um, a formula, a program.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's very common that people that really do work this program truly are living their best life.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And also what you see is that they're having more success than they've ever had.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of us don't realize how much this thing was holding us back.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um I heard a good friend of mine say, because we don't know we have it.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know you have this until you do, or some don't, unfortunately.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: But if you do and you acknowledge that you have this thing, over time you're like, whoa, I had a I really had a monkey on my back.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it turned out to be a gorilla.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when that's gone, you you see people, these are people that go hard, right?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you hear a lot of people say that, you know, the our biggest asset is also our biggest liability.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of these people that have this thing, they don't know how to do anything half speed.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's how we do everything.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's how a lot of these people would have played sports.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's how they approach their career or their school or love relationships.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: There is no halfway.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's how we drank.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be a really helpful thing to be wired that way.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: People are gonna give a great effort, but it's also a massive liability.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: But if you think like that one element where I was expending all of this energy, being an alcoholic is a lot of work.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: The planning that goes into that, right?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like, where am I going to get it?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: How am I going to consume it?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: What are my stories that I'm going to share about what I'm doing and where I am?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then recovering from those episodes, it's a lot.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's draining.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: So think when all that's gone of the resources that you get back.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where you see people that do recover and have good recovery, and they're on fire and they go on to do great things.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And how long have you been sober?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: I am seven years sober.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Seven years.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: So is that a point worth making that you've been in the program 10 years and sober seven?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not something that in a week two or a year or two.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: I had been from the time when I first went to uh a 12-step meeting to my sobriety date is I think two years.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's common.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard it usually takes 10 years for someone to get a year.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: So 10 years in and out.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Three months, six months, a year, two years, or no, not a year, two years, but trying to get their first first full year of sobriety.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's accurate.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And some people get it the first time.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it sounds probably like, wow, it took two years to really get it.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I had six months in there.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: I had some time with some relapses.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you go out and you do more research.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And some people do this over and over and over again.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I also look at it that I drank for 35 years.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I went to residential treatment in 2018.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought 30 days was so long.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: You want me to go here for a month?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thinking that was such a long time.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: I really like math.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I figured out that I had drank for 420 months.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a rewiring project that takes time.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Neuroplasticity is a thing.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Our brain rewires.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank God.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: But it does take time.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: One of the many cool parts of the program is that you will have a spiritual transformation.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: That happens when you work the program.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Some people, it's sudden and spectacular.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Boom, something happens and the obsession to drink is completely and permanently removed and they never drink again.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: You do see those occasionally.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: We have to shift gears and talk about some of the concerns and criticisms.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is an interesting part because, you know, I also do a mental health podcast.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And when I talk about medications, I always say that people either swear by them because they have helped them or they swear at the mention of them.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: And AA is a little bit like that because people are either they really believe in it or they really don't.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so a couple of those questions.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Alcoholics Anonymous remains abstinence-based, while the larger recovery field increasingly recognizes multiple pathways to recovery, including moderation and harm reduction.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Why the rigidity?
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why the rigidity or the perceived rigidity.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: The program was created uh 91 years ago.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the content of the program in written form has not changed much.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: And abstinence was absolutely a part of the program.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's what they saw was effective.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that said, I don't see or hear people in the program that are rigid.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: People want people to be successful.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And um people for the, you know, that I've seen are extremely compassionate.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone's life is getting better, I think that's the scoreboard, right?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, again, um, you know, the the the founders stressed the importance of being open-minded.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think if they were alive today and they saw someone that's life got much better, and they were a uh good provider to their family again, and they were involved in their community again, and they were moving in the right direction, but they weren't 100% abstinence or anything like that, um, I don't think there would be a lot of criticism.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think I think that is a a misperception that it's rigid.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming I did pull this up, um, that the rigidity meant in terms of the requirement for abstinence versus moderation or any other uh option.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you're going to 12-step meetings, there is an expectation that you're gonna try to not drink.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it isn't good.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like if someone was coming all the time and and they were drinking regularly, that's not good for the other members.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Drinking hasn't been good for us.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't want people drinking.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's fair to say.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you're still welcome.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone is still welcome.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you've relapsed a hundred times, you're always welcome.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: But there may be, maybe a bit of frustration with someone that if they really weren't trying that hard or they really weren't working the program, do you really want this?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: Understood.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: What do you say to someone who feels AA is too religious for them?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that AA is not religious.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's spiritual.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a very, very, very big difference.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: So religion typically is rigid, is dogmatic, has rituals.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh spirituality is your individual relationship with a higher power of your understanding.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: That can be anything you want it to be.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: There could be theology involved, it could have an element of Christianity or Buddhism or Islam, whatever it might be, but you get to create that.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that is your relationship with your higher power.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: I heard some someone shared with me people who are who are religious go upstairs at church.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: People who are spiritual go downstairs to the 12-step meetings.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: I also heard religion is for people that are afraid to go to hell.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Spirituality is for people who've been there.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a religious program.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thousands of times a month, people go online and search is AA a cult.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you think that fear comes from?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea, but it is so far from a cult.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: A cult, as I understand, a cult usually has a single leader who, and there's a requirement to comply with certain behaviors, limitations, et cetera.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think, and if you look at the AA traditions, we we do not govern.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're trusted servants, everyone is equal, self-supporting through our own contributions.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's about as uh far to the other end of the spectrum as a cult as you could imagine.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if it's the language.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: When you hear people say it works if you work it, when you hear them say it, you know, keep coming back.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, there's a shared language.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that in the Venn diagram would be an area that overlaps.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not sure I'm not sure exactly where that comes from.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so too.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um are do you think people perceive religions as cults?
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: I do think they some of them, yeah.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's probably, you know, people are saying the same prayers and they're, you know, making the same rituals.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that's understandable.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um Alcoholics Anonymous is much less rigid than religions, for sure.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: And having been raised Catholic, as you have shared, you've certainly seen both.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can remember going to a Catholic church when I was a young boy and having no idea what was going on.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and like, why are they doing this?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: And even the language that was used was not understandable.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this wasn't English, not Latin.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not that old.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: I am.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: So um I think there's a clarity and an understanding that happens when you go to these meetings.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a confusion that exists with some other organizations.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: So unfortunately, there is a lot of misunderstanding uh out there about the program.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's also this thing that uh you hear there's a lot of contempt prior to investigation.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's amazing how many people have an opinion about Alcoholics Anonymous, yet they haven't experienced it themselves.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about AA's emphasis on powerlessness and alcoholism being a lifelong disease.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: There are people who argue that or say the labels empower recovery, and others say it fosters learned helplessness.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good question that powerlessness comes from step one.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I've heard people say that's the only step that you need to get perfect, is admitted we were powerless, that our lives had become unmanageable.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's hard, especially for certain personas.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: I see a lot of successful men struggle with that.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um there would not be a correlation between big ego and admitting powerlessness.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that the more important part of that, which I think is more accessible, is that our lives had become unmanageable.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And most people coming in to the rooms who got in trouble or Or who are looking for help, their lives aren't good.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a failure to acknowledge what the root cause is.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the root cause ends up being you're drinking, of course.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: The learned helplessness thing, if I just admit that I'm powerless, sure, that would feel very helpless.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: What follows soon after is that you discover a new power.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: But that new power isn't me.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that new power is going to help you to recover from this thing that you have not been able to recover from on your own.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the hope comes in.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: So learned helplessness as someone who studied psychology is extremely dangerous.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: So if it was just admitting powerlessness without having a new power, right, uh, that would not be good.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: However, there is a new power that is introduced soon after admitting powerlessness.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: That being the higher power of your choice, yes.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Of your understanding.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: So step one, admitted we're powerless over alcohol that our lives had become unmanageable.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Step two, came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: Think about that.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: If something is going to restore me to sanity, what does that mean about my current state?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm insane.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is a serious mental illness.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people don't understand that.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is a terminal chronic illness, an SMI, a serious mental illness.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: And they knew that back in 1935 could restore us to sanity.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: So came to believe.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of odd.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: How do I come to believe?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, just start believing.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: So there is an element of like, just do it.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Then step three, step three is really, really tough, where a lot of people stall, made a decision to turn our will and our life over to the care of God as we understood Him.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's the one where people are like, hold on, come on.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: I you're asking me to turn it over to God, really?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that a lot of these comments and these questions that you'd see online, uh, that probably does stem from step three.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Step three is where a lot of people will leave the program.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: Step three is where a lot of people will be stuck for months, years.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know a guy right now.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I just can't do step three.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: You terminally unique.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: Just do it.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: Why not?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Give it a shot.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: See what happens.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's amazing that these people will not do this, but they were comfortable doing some really, really, really harmful things that hurt themselves and many other people.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's odd.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna get into all the steps next episode.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: So acknowledging that AA is not for everyone, what are some legitimate alternatives?
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: Things that came up smart recovery therapy first before you go into the program, harm reduction and moderation.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's tremendous options.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's um smart recovery.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's Dharma recovery.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, some some people do it on their own.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do know that a lot of the data shows that there has to be a significant substitute, right?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: So so uh some people, I've seen people without using a program and kind of go it alone.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: But typically what I see with those people is that they'll get really, really into something else, right?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of uh triathletes who are sober.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you see people kind of channel that in a different way.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's great.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what they may not have though, and I've seen this a lot.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen a lot of uh really from the culture that I grew up in, there were a lot of people that didn't drink anymore, but they were referred to as dry drunks.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I never really knew what that meant.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: But these are people that don't drink anymore.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: So they're sober as far as not consuming alcohol, but they haven't recovered because they're still restless, irritable, and discontent.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the beginning of the book of Alcoholics Anonymous has the doctor's opinion.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the founders were really smart, and there was tremendous skepticism about their program from these guys.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: One was a stockbroker and one was a, you know, a proctologist, but they weren't recovery experts or, you know, hadn't worked with thousands of alcoholics or anything like that.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they said they discovered this program and it works.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: So they knew that that wouldn't be credible.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: So they said, how can we get a really strong endorsement for this program of someone that would be credible?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this guy, Dr.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: Silkworth, who worked at Towns Hospital in New York City.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's where they used to send all the drunks.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: So Dr.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Silkworth, draw the shortest straw or something like that, to get that assignment, but he worked with all of the chronic alcoholics in New York City that would get sent to Towns Hospital.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: This is where Bill Wilson had a spiritual awakening the fourth time he was there.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Silkworth identified the symptoms of alcoholics as people who were restless, irritable, and discontent.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: And this program of recovery changes that to be people that are happy, joyous, and free.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's what happens if you work the program.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: The dry drunks are still restless, irritable, and discontent.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're angry, they're frustrated, they're miserable.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all of the world's problems are external factors.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: What the program does is it lets you see I'm the source of the problems.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it's me and my drinking.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we can get into that when we talk about the steps.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: When you do this inventory, the inventory of resentments.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone, where I grew up, there's a term called a beef.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: You get a beef with someone, everyone I get a beef with, right?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you process that resentment, right?
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: What happened?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: How it made me feel.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what did it impact my self-esteem?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then this next column, what was my part in it?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Me?
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: You mean I have might have had something to do with this?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: These people did these things to me.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the victim.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, you you haven't had a clear lens.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: You've contributed a lot.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: And when you have the ability to really see it that way, yeah, I've created problems and I've created conflict and chaos and take that level of ownership.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: But if you can't, you're still going to be angry at the world, right?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And for people that do feel that way and they lose, you know, their medicine, that's a tough life.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: So alcoholics who are who are dry, it's a tough way to live.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have any relief.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the normal go-to for that relief, which is on every street corner, can't do that anymore.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to find some relief somehow.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what the program gives you.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone is listening and interested in checking out a program or learning more about AA, what do you suggest as their next step?
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: Go to a meeting.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's, there's, there's so many meetings available and give it a shot.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if that meeting isn't great, go to a different one and keep going.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: How do you find them?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: Online, abundant resources, um, Alcoholics Anonymous, I think it's AA.org.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's also a bunch of meeting finders.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's a company called recovery.com that has a meeting finder at alcohol.org.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I would recommend.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: And give it a shot.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: I would also recommend being open-minded, willing, and honest.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: It works if you work it.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate your time.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we will be back with another episode in which we are going to look at each individual step of the 12 steps and talk about what's expected of you and how they can help you in the recovery journey.