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PTSD: Reclaiming Life After Trauma · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:05
  Mary: Welcome to no Shrinking Violets.
• 0:07
  Mary: I'm your host, mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
• 0:13
  Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
• 0:20
  Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
• 0:29
  Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish.
• 0:34
  Mary: Let's dive in.
• 0:35
  Mary: Hey, violets, welcome to the show.
• 0:41
  Mary: Today's show is about trauma and resilience.
• 0:44
  Mary: I've seen amazing journeys of resilience in my 35 years as a mental health therapist.
• 0:49
  Mary: Much of my career was spent working with older teenagers and young adults.
• 0:54
  Mary: So often they were just starting to emerge from their response to their early traumas and recognize how much their lives and coping were defined by what happened to them.
• 1:03
  Mary: My guest today experienced her acute trauma when she was 17.
• 1:09
  Mary: Nowadays we often use official mental health diagnoses in our everyday language.
• 1:13
  Mary: It's not uncommon for people to say I have PTSD, sometimes in a joking way, like if you had to go through your morning without coffee, or when people recognize that they experienced a traumatic event and it altered their interactions with people and situations.
• 1:29
  Mary: So there's a difference between experiencing a traumatic event and developing post-traumatic stress disorder, ptsd.
• 1:38
  Mary: So the official diagnosis of PTSD is pretty specific.
• 1:43
  Mary: First, the trauma is categorized as exposure to actual or threatened death, serious injury or sexual violence in one of a very specific way, one of three ways.
• 1:55
  Mary: So the first is either you directly experience it, the other is that you're witnessing it in person when it occurs to someone else, and the third is learning about a traumatic event that has occurred to someone that you care deeply about, a close family member, a close friend.
• 2:13
  Mary: Now, the other part of this because diagnoses can get pretty specific is that in cases of actual or threatened death of a family member or friend, the event must have been violent or accidental, and this is important when we think about trauma.
• 2:31
  Mary: So when we lose a loved one to a disease like cancer, it's certainly a traumatic experience, but it doesn't qualify as an event that can lead to PTSD.
• 2:40
  Mary: However, seeking therapy or other support to navigate any traumatic experience is healthy because, regardless of whether it meets a criteria for trauma in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, which is what therapists use to diagnose, it lives in our bodies and affects our functioning.
• 2:58
  Mary: Another further note on PTSD the person who is diagnosed needs to have things like intrusive memories.
• 3:06
  Mary: So that means memories that come back when you don't want them to come back, or reliving something in the form of a flashback which is not just a memory but a full body experience of what happened to you.
• 3:18
  Mary: It can be upsetting nightmares or just any kind of severe emotional or physical distress in response to it.
• 3:27
  Mary: Another aspect is avoidance trying not to think about it or talk about it, or staying away from people, places, activities that remind you of it.
• 3:36
  Mary: The third thing is a lot of change in how you think, very negative thoughts or ongoing deep emotions of guilt or shame or fear, memory issues, so forgetting part of what happened, feeling detached from activities or people that you care about, and also changes in your physical or emotional reactions, so being more easily startled, always being on guard, not having your back to people, trouble sleeping, concentrating.
• 4:08
  Mary: So it's a pretty extensive list of symptoms and you don't have to have every one of those things, but I wanted to be clear today that we're talking about post-traumatic stress disorder, which is different than some other types of experiences of trauma.
• 4:26
  Mary: Okay, so let me get to my guest today.
• 4:28
  Mary: Her name is Susan Snow and she can relate to many of these symptoms.
• 4:32
  Mary: On Halloween night in 1985, when she was 17, susan's life changed forever when her father, lapd detective Thomas C Williams, was ambushed and killed.
• 4:44
  Mary: Father LAPD detective Thomas C Williams was ambushed and killed.
• 4:49
  Mary: Her compelling story of her own and her family's loss and the road to recovery from trauma provides hope and practical guidance for others who have been touched by violence and loss.
• 4:55
  Mary: Susan reclaimed her life, learned to manage PTSD and found a path to vulnerability with courage, loss without victimhood and love with forgiveness.
• 5:06
  Mary: Today, susan is a published author and we'll talk more about her book.
• 5:10
  Mary: A speaker and a coach, she currently works as a realtor in the Denver metro area.
• 5:15
  Mary: Okay, welcome to no Shrinking Violet, susan.
• 5:19
  Mary: Thank you for your patience with my long intro and thank you for being here today.
• 5:23
  Susan: Thank you for having me, and I literally felt like that was a checklist.
• 5:30
  Mary: Yes, it's a lot.
• 5:33
  Mary: It is a lot, yeah, okay, so could we start with you sharing your story of what happened to you with your dad.
• 5:42
  Susan: Sure, absolutely.
• 5:43
  Susan: Well, like you said, I was 17 years old, this was 1985.
• 5:49
  Susan: I also had a six-year-old brother at the time or he was six then and my dad was a Los Angeles police detective Angeles police detective and he was testifying that morning of Halloween.
• 6:14
  Susan: I wanted to go to a party that night typical teenage life, right, I wanted to go to a party that night.
• 6:22
  Susan: Dad said no, school night strict.
• 6:24
  Susan: And I was like, all right, fine, whatever.
• 6:27
  Susan: Um, but I had plans.
• 6:29
  Susan: I was going to clean the house and smooths him when he got home and the the plan was that he was going to leave court, go pick up my six-year-old brother.
• 6:38
  Susan: Um, he went to a local church school and so he would pick him up at the end of the day, bring him home and then the schmoozing would happen.
• 6:51
  Susan: Unfortunately, that didn't happen.
• 6:57
  Susan: I was home getting ready for this party and the phone rang and I went to get it because I assumed it was for me and it wasn't.
• 7:06
  Susan: It was a lady from my brother's school and she said there was a drive-by shooting and my dad was involved, and that's all she said.
• 7:14
  Susan: My mom came into the room and I handed her the phone and I watched her demeanor and I watched her body language and I was really trying to listen in to see what was being said.
• 7:26
  Susan: She got off the phone and she said we're going to the school.
• 7:30
  Susan: So we got in the car, drove to the school it's now evening time, so it's dark outside.
• 7:39
  Susan: We go and the school has a parking lot in the middle and we got out of the car and started heading to the back of the school, because that's where they got all the kids, came out and after school care and even though it was night, it looked like daylight because there were so many police cars and the lights were blaring in the sky and there was an ambulance in the road just sitting there.
• 8:06
  Susan: My mom and I caught our eye.
• 8:10
  Susan: It was my dad's truck.
• 8:12
  Susan: So we started to run towards the truck and the closer we got we saw excuse me, we saw glass on the ground and came around the corner and there his body was partially covered up.
• 8:28
  Susan: Wow, and at that point, you know, my mom dropped.
• 8:32
  Susan: She was screaming and I could not comprehend what I was looking at.
• 8:38
  Susan: So what I did was hyper focus on the ambulance and I kept telling myself, like why isn't anyone helping him?
• 8:46
  Susan: That was the process that was happening.
• 8:52
  Susan: Soon enough, two officers came, grabbed us and escorted us back into the school and I sat down in an office.
• 9:04
  Susan: My mom was taken aside by some detectives.
• 9:08
  Susan: At this point I had no idea where my brother was.
• 9:10
  Susan: I didn't know if he was injured, I knew nothing and I was still trying to process everything that was going on.
• 9:20
  Susan: It was very chaotic.
• 9:22
  Susan: I was listening in to two ladies that worked at the school and the one lady said that my dad was deceased.
• 9:31
  Susan: And that's when it hit me.
• 9:33
  Susan: That's when my world cracked and I wanted to jump out of my chair and run out of that room and run far, far away.
• 9:42
  Susan: But my entire body felt like it was filled with cement and I couldn't move.
• 9:47
  Susan: And soon enough my mom came up and she said I'm sending you with a neighbor.
• 9:52
  Susan: And I was like I understand that I wanted to run away from this, but my 17-year-old self is still a little girl and I need my family.
• 10:08
  Susan: I need the support, I need the comfort and unfortunately I didn't get that.
• 10:18
  Susan: I had to process all of this by myself, or try to at least, and at the time I was dating a guy for three months, and so when I got to the neighbor's house, all I wanted was my boyfriend.
• 10:34
  Susan: So I begged her to call him at work he was 19 at the time and so she called him and he showed up.
• 10:46
  Susan: But she didn't give him enough information.
• 10:48
  Susan: So when he showed up he was like grab your purse, grab your jacket, let's go to the hospital.
• 10:54
  Susan: What hospital is he at?
• 10:56
  Susan: Where's your mom, where's your brother?
• 10:58
  Susan: And I couldn't spit out the words.
• 11:02
  Susan: And I couldn't spit out the words.
• 11:04
  Susan: It wasn't until he was continuing to like kind of press that we leave, that I finally blurted it out he's gone.
• 11:12
  Susan: And he said what do you mean?
• 11:13
  Susan: He's gone?
• 11:14
  Susan: And I said he's gone, he's not at a hospital.
• 11:16
  Susan: And I watched him drop to his knees and start sobbing.
• 11:23
  Susan: And so now here's us, two kids trying to navigate all of this stuff.
• 11:30
  Susan: There's so much stuff going on just in our neighborhood.
• 11:36
  Susan: It was filled with police officers.
• 11:38
  Susan: The media had ascended because it was a big story and we had helicopters overhead, unbeknownst to us.
• 11:51
  Susan: We too were the target, so that's why all the police presence was there.
• 11:57
  Susan: I didn't know that until the trial, but being kids you know there was no resources.
• 12:09
  Susan: Really.
• 12:09
  Susan: Lapd didn't have systems in place to support children.
• 12:13
  Susan: So they had systems in place to support the widow or the widower, but not the kids.
• 12:23
  Susan: And when I finally did go home that night, I had people in my house.
• 12:28
  Susan: I had no idea who they were and all I wanted to do at that point is hide.
• 12:36
  Susan: So that's what I did.
• 12:38
  Susan: I went straight to my room with my boyfriend and hid.
• 12:42
  Susan: I didn't want to talk to anybody.
• 12:44
  Susan: I didn't want to answer any anybody.
• 12:44
  Susan: I didn't want to answer any questions, I didn't want nothing.
• 12:47
  Susan: I still didn't know where my brother was.
• 12:49
  Susan: Um, it wasn't until late that night I heard him crying.
• 12:55
  Susan: So I knew that he was home and that he was physically okay.
• 13:01
  Susan: Yeah, not mentally.
• 13:04
  Susan: I mean, he watched his father get killed and my dad saved his life.
• 13:09
  Susan: It was the last thing he did and unfortunately, you know, my mom's pushing me aside continued.
• 13:21
  Susan: It took the media two days to figure out he had a teenage daughter.
• 13:27
  Susan: So in that scenario, not only was I going through depression, which I didn't know was, I didn't know what it was.
• 13:38
  Susan: I just didn't want to get out of bed.
• 13:40
  Susan: I didn't want to see anyone.
• 13:42
  Susan: I didn't even sleep.
• 13:44
  Susan: I wasn't sleeping the first night.
• 13:47
  Susan: I just looked outside and it was daylight.
• 13:49
  Susan: I felt like I was walking around in a fog.
• 13:54
  Susan: I tell people, I felt like I was existing, not living.
• 13:59
  Susan: Um, and I, I went through this for a while, um, even through the, even through the funeral and everything.
• 14:16
  Susan: It was just like life was going on around me.
• 14:19
  Susan: Yeah, um, and my boyfriend was great because he would remind me to take things in, especially at the funeral.
• 14:32
  Susan: Like look at this, look, look what people are doing, look at the people standing on the side of the streets lining the streets and honoring your dad.
• 14:43
  Susan: Like he would make me remember those things.
• 14:47
  Susan: They're still fuzzy, but still remembering those things.
• 14:52
  Susan: And I didn't know very much about therapy.
• 15:02
  Susan: Being a kid, I thought if you go to a therapist, you're nuts yeah but on the other side of that, like I didn't know how to verbalize what I was dealing with, I didn't.
• 15:13
  Susan: And then I felt scared to tell anybody too, because I thought, if I tell people that and know now in hindsight I know that I had suicidal ideation.
• 15:27
  Susan: I knew that I had thoughts in my head, intrusive thoughts that would say you know, you need to be with your dad, and I was afraid to tell anyone because I thought they'd lock me up in a loony bin.
• 15:46
  Susan: Yeah, so I kept it to myself.
• 15:50
  Susan: And my mom came to me.
• 15:53
  Susan: At the time I was Like if you had pushed me in one direction, that's the direction I would go.
• 16:04
  Susan: There was no advocating for myself, I just went.
• 16:09
  Susan: Yeah, so my mom voluntold me that therapy was coming because LAPD was going to pay for it.
• 16:16
  Susan: Okay For all three of us.
• 16:18
  Susan: And I thought, okay, I'm going to go see a professional.
• 16:21
  Susan: Okay, I'll go and had a little bit of hope.
• 16:29
  Susan: And I went and saw this man and he didn't want to dip his feet in the weeds with me.
• 16:36
  Susan: He and I.
• 16:38
  Susan: You're a therapist and I'm going to tell you this.
• 16:40
  Susan: And people are like what?
• 16:42
  Susan: He never asked me, what that night did to me.
• 16:45
  Susan: He never asked me the question.
• 16:48
  Susan: So because he didn't ask the question, I didn't volunteer the information.
• 16:57
  Susan: I again didn't know how to verbalize what was going on with me.
• 17:03
  Susan: And I again didn't know how to verbalize what was going on with me.
• 17:05
  Susan: And every week I saw him.
• 17:07
  Susan: It was we talked about my relationship with my mother, my brother, my boyfriend and school.
• 17:16
  Susan: That was it.
• 17:18
  Susan: That was it.
• 17:19
  Susan: And every week I would be like today's the day.
• 17:22
  Susan: He's going to help me, he's going to say something to make me feel better, he's going to do something right.
• 17:28
  Susan: And it never happened.
• 17:30
  Susan: I saw him for a year and after a year he looked at me and said I was a well-rounded young lady and I'm going to be fine for the rest of my life.
• 17:41
  Mary: Oh, my goodness.
• 17:42
  Susan: So when I walked out of his office, I thought, okay, I've snapped, I'm crazy.
• 17:49
  Susan: Like not even a professional can help me, so I'm going to have to figure this out myself.
• 17:56
  Susan: Oh, my goodness, and what I did is I hid and you know these terms.
• 18:05
  Susan: I hid behind my emotional mask.
• 18:08
  Susan: I would listen to people say to me oh Susan, you're so strong, oh Susan, you're so brave, right, and that's the mask.
• 18:19
  Susan: I was like I'm brave, I'm strong, I'm not going to let anyone see the turmoil inside of me.
• 18:25
  Susan: Everybody's going to think I'm brave and strong and that's the way it's going to be.
• 18:31
  Susan: But I was literally living in fight or flight.
• 18:34
  Susan: Yeah, I was scared.
• 18:39
  Susan: I was.
• 18:40
  Susan: You know, you talk about being on edge.
• 18:44
  Susan: I was on edge because, you know, back to the situation, this was a planned out assassination of my dad and there were many people involved.
• 18:56
  Susan: So my safety was definitely one of those things that kept me on edge.
• 19:02
  Susan: Yeah, I did look around, I did look behind myself, I freaked out when I took the trash out at night and so I just oh gosh, I don't know what's going on with my voice, excuse me.
• 19:23
  Susan: I just really struggled for 14 years.
• 19:26
  Susan: I married the boyfriend, we got married and we had two kids still living in Los Angeles, you know, in the LA area, southern California, and I got to a point where I was like I don't want to be here, I don't want it, I want to leave this part behind.
• 19:49
  Susan: I don't because people knew who I was as well, so it was just I wanted to leave that part of me behind.
• 19:57
  Susan: I figured if I moved geographically that that part of my life would go away.
• 20:04
  Susan: Ha ha ha.
• 20:06
  Susan: Because no one would know who I was.
• 20:09
  Susan: Nothing around me would remind me of anything.
• 20:13
  Susan: You know those kind of things.
• 20:17
  Susan: And when I came to Colorado, where we are now, I was working as a hairdresser and I worked at a salon that was very close to Littleton, colorado.
• 20:29
  Susan: I was working on April 20th of 1999 doing some client's hair.
• 20:39
  Susan: I took a break, went into the back room, turned on our little TV and up popped the live coverage of the Columbine shootings.
• 20:48
  Susan: I had a visceral reaction to it.
• 20:56
  Susan: I had flashbacks of the night my dad was killed.
• 20:59
  Susan: I saw the police, cars, the ambulance, the kids, the school.
• 21:05
  Susan: But because I was told I was going to be fine for the rest of my life, I was totally confused as to what was happening to me and I had never told my colleagues my story.
• 21:19
  Susan: So they were confused as to what was happening with me, my story.
• 21:23
  Susan: So they were confused as to what was happening with me.
• 21:33
  Susan: But I did what I always did.
• 21:34
  Susan: I put that mask back on and I went out and I finished my day and everybody around me was in different emotions anger, sadness, you know, you name it.
• 21:43
  Susan: And I was stoic.
• 21:44
  Susan: I was like nope, this isn't gonna this.
• 21:48
  Susan: I don't have kids there, I don't live in that neighborhood, you know I?
• 21:52
  Susan: Why am I having this reaction?
• 21:54
  Susan: I'm not doors to get into my car.
• 21:57
  Susan: Everything, every emotion, every feeling came flooding back.
• 22:14
  Susan: And this time it was even more intense.
• 22:16
  Susan: So I started, I stopped sleeping, um, I had suicidal ideation.
• 22:27
  Susan: Again, the depression hit me hard.
• 22:30
  Susan: I had panic attacks at night.
• 22:33
  Susan: I'd have a panic attack before I went to try to go to sleep and I was just a mess and I was spiraling and I was scared because part of me didn't want to feel this way anymore.
• 22:48
  Susan: But then I had babies and I was like I can't leave my babies, but I don't want to feel this way, but I can't leave.
• 22:57
  Susan: And finally, my husband, the smart man that he is, because he's been with me through this whole thing recognized that I was going down a slippery slope and he said you have two choices you either get help today or I'm putting you in a hospital.
• 23:18
  Susan: Hospital.
• 23:21
  Susan: And I was like, all right, I put up the white flag, I give up, okay, I'll go.
• 23:28
  Susan: And I made an appointment that day and saw a physician initially, and he put me on an antidepressant, because that's what they do.
• 23:39
  Susan: And then he handed me a business card and he said I want you to see this therapist.
• 23:45
  Susan: And I looked at him and started to laugh Because I said that didn't work before.
• 23:54
  Susan: What makes you think it's going to work this time?
• 23:57
  Susan: And he said well, honestly, you have no choice.
• 24:00
  Susan: So I said, all right, I give up.
• 24:06
  Susan: So, yep, I'll do it.
• 24:08
  Susan: And I made this appointment with this woman.
• 24:11
  Susan: In the first three minutes of meeting with her, I knew this was different.
• 24:16
  Susan: She was finally asking me the questions.
• 24:20
  Susan: That proved to me that I could be vulnerable with her.
• 24:27
  Susan: So she'd asked me the questions and it allowed me to be vulnerable with her and tell her everything from when I was 17 to what I was currently dealing with.
• 24:37
  Susan: And she looked at me and she said, susan, everything that you have felt and gone through since you were 17 years old is normal because you have PTSD.
• 24:53
  Susan: And and I kind of looked at her like what, what are you talking about?
• 24:59
  Susan: I, I'm not in the military, I didn't go to war.
• 25:03
  Susan: And she looked at me and she said, no.
• 25:07
  Susan: She said, susan, people like you that have gone through trauma can experience PTSD.
• 25:13
  Susan: But what you need to know is that it's not something that goes away.
• 25:18
  Susan: It's something you learn to manage.
• 25:22
  Susan: And I was so hopeful in that moment, I was so grateful for this person, because I knew, oh my gosh, I can heal from this.
• 25:35
  Susan: You mean, I'm not crazy, I'm not nuts like this can feel better one day.
• 25:40
  Susan: I can heal from this.
• 25:43
  Susan: And I, you know, I describe it as the sky opened up and rainbows shot out in that very moment, because I was like I have answers for the first time.
• 25:56
  Susan: I understand Now I don't like the D in PTSD because it has such a negative connotation to it.
• 26:08
  Susan: Yep, so post trauma you know I talk about post trauma the official diagnosis is PTSD or CPTSD or see PTSD.
• 26:21
  Susan: But it was such a start of my journey and starting it with gratitude was fantastic.
• 26:33
  Mary: Yeah, oh, my.
• 26:35
  Mary: So lots and lots of things to talk about in all of that.
• 26:42
  Mary: Yeah, you know.
• 26:43
  Mary: And the first thing there are not every therapist is good, right, and you know I've done other episodes on this.
• 26:53
  Mary: I think it's important as a client to feel empowered.
• 26:57
  Mary: But I think when you're in the situation that you were, in, you, I, it seems like your experience was you didn't, was, you weren't given a lot of power in this situation.
• 27:08
  Mary: From the very beginning, it was go here, do this.
• 27:11
  Mary: And I think it's interesting too, having someone tell you you're fine and every fiber of your being knew you were not fine.
• 27:21
  Mary: Right, every fiber of your being knew you were not fine.
• 27:23
  Mary: And isn't that what we often do?
• 27:25
  Mary: It's like, well, I must be crazy because everybody else thinks I'm okay, so it must be me.
• 27:34
  Mary: And that is such an important thing to shine a light on, because we often know we know we're not okay.
• 27:40
  Susan: Yeah.
• 27:41
  Mary: And we're looking around and it's like well, nobody's like alarmed here.
• 27:45
  Mary: They must not see what I'm feeling, and we can sort of you carry that for.
• 27:51
  Mary: Did you say 14 years?
• 27:54
  Susan: Mm-hmm.
• 27:55
  Mary: Wow.
• 27:56
  Susan: Long time, yeah, and I tell people, you know, I, I.
• 28:02
  Susan: That's why it's important right off the bat to to be.
• 28:06
  Susan: You were talking about empowering yourself.
• 28:08
  Susan: Your healing is your healing.
• 28:11
  Susan: It's nobody else's healing, right, it's not your therapist's healing.
• 28:15
  Susan: However, you want to make sure that whoever because everybody's trauma is different, right, and the modalities used are different and everything so, whether you're dealing with a sexual assault trauma or something like you know, murder trauma or whatever it is, you want to make sure that that therapist understands that type of trauma, because I've heard from other people that some therapists lump trauma into one big group.
• 28:52
  Susan: Right, and it's not.
• 28:54
  Susan: It's not.
• 28:55
  Susan: You know, and and so I've learned that that you know, in order for you to be able to feel vulnerable with this person and feel like they're a safe space to do that with, you got to know that they understand the type of trauma that you have gone through and that way, they're able to navigate you through the different modalities that might help you to heal.
• 29:27
  Susan: I'm not angry at that first therapist about what he did.
• 29:32
  Susan: I look back and I think you know if I wasn't educated enough, I don't think I would want to dip my toes in the weeds either think I would want to dip my toes in the weeds either, um, I think he was just LAPD, paid for a therapist and that's what I got.
• 29:50
  Susan: Uh, professionally Right, um.
• 29:53
  Susan: But the other side of that is not being diagnosed, not knowing what's going on, feeling completely out of control inside of myself kept me from seeing things that were not healthy relationships, people, situations.
• 30:14
  Susan: I have a chapter in my book called Rose Colored Glasses, because I literally walked away, walked around with rose colored glasses.
• 30:28
  Susan: I wanted to see the good in everybody and because of that they took advantage of me, they stepped on me.
• 30:34
  Susan: I didn't advocate for myself, I just took people's crud, you know, because I didn't know how to stand up for myself.
• 30:44
  Susan: I wasn't strong enough internally to be able to do that, or to see when relationships were not healthy for me to be in, so I would mold myself for them to like me.
• 30:59
  Susan: I was a people pleaser.
• 31:00
  Susan: This is a big thing with people with PTSD.
• 31:04
  Susan: Is people pleasing, you know, stepping on eggshells, um, and so I I.
• 31:15
  Susan: That's the one part I regret, you know.
• 31:18
  Susan: But other than that, like, if I can tell people this, if I can tell my message to people with this is, the sooner you can start your healing journey, the better.
• 31:31
  Susan: The other side of that is, I've heard people say things like I want to get healthy for my children.
• 31:38
  Susan: I want to get healthy for my spouse, my whoever right.
• 31:44
  Susan: No, you need to get healthy for yourself.
• 31:47
  Mary: Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
• 31:49
  Susan: Because it ripples out when your kids see you healing, they heal.
• 31:56
  Susan: When your parents see you healing, they can heal.
• 32:00
  Susan: Well, except for mine, um whole different story.
• 32:05
  Susan: Um, you know, but the people around you and that was one of the reasons why I decided to write a book is because I thought one people had had a perception of who I was and told my story in their own head, and it was usually not the right story.
• 32:28
  Susan: The other side of that is that I was proud who I became, so I wanted people.
• 32:41
  Susan: There was still so much anger and sadness within law enforcement around my dad's death even to today, and it's been almost 40 years.
• 32:53
  Susan: Oh, my that I thought.
• 32:56
  Susan: If people see the resiliency side, if they see the healing that I did, if they see that I'm doing good, you know, and I'm continuing to heal from this, then maybe they can too.
• 33:10
  Susan: Yeah, and then it, and then it expanded from there and I realized that there were people out there that needed to hear what I heard in that one day, which was that there was hope and that you're not alone and there is a person your person is out there.
• 33:31
  Susan: You just have to find them to help you and guide you through your healing.
• 33:37
  Susan: So those were the faceless people that I would think about when I was reading, because there was a lot of fear a lot of fear in writing this book, because I knew I had to be 100% vulnerable, 100% authentic.
• 33:58
  Susan: And in telling your story like that and being authentic, I had to tell other stories, such as my mother's, such as my husband's, because my husband and I have been together almost 40 years, which crazy, crazy, crazy.
• 34:14
  Susan: But we've been through hell and back together.
• 34:19
  Susan: And you said in the very beginning that people who have experienced not the actual trauma, but have been around the people that have experienced the trauma, can have trauma.
• 34:40
  Susan: And it's taken him a while, but he's starting to see that about himself.
• 34:49
  Susan: Um, cause I had told him, you know, he had some behaviors that came up during our marriage, even before our marriage, that I felt like that was a part of it.
• 35:07
  Susan: Yeah, is he was unhealed and he also had a wife that he watched in flight or flight for 14 years and then watch the healing part as well.
• 35:23
  Susan: And then also, my mom is a narcissist.
• 35:27
  Susan: I had narcissistic abuse and so did he because he had to be around it, so we had stackable trauma.
• 35:38
  Mary: I bet yes.
• 36:04
  Susan: And so in reading, writing the book, I knew that it would either dissolve what was left of my mom and I's relationship or it would open a conversation, which she chose to dissolve it, and I'm okay, I'm at peace with that.
• 36:08
  Susan: And it would pull up wounds for my husband and I was afraid that that would cause some rockiness in our relationship.
• 36:17
  Susan: And then there was the safety factor of it, like I was going to put myself out there and there were still men, two men that were still in prison for my dad's murder, um, and one was already free, so I was afraid of retaliation, yeah, however, I felt like my purpose of getting my message out was so much more powerful and important than my fear.
• 36:58
  Mary: Well, that's so.
• 36:58
  Mary: Yeah, you're truly taking up your space by doing that.
• 37:01
  Susan: Yeah, and so I, every time that fear would roll in, I would think of those faceless people out there, and that would allow me to keep driving forward.
• 37:18
  Susan: And so I tell people that you know when you have that fear, because you know, I know that taking that leap, saying this is it, I'm going to heal from my trauma, is the hardest thing you can do and it's the bravest thing you can do.
• 37:31
  Susan: There's a lot of people out there that are walking around that are unhealed, yeah, and so taking that leap is brave, is scary.
• 37:47
  Susan: I don't ever candy coat the work because it's hard.
• 37:53
  Susan: You are doing the hardest thing that you ever do in your life, really.
• 38:04
  Susan: And but I will tell you, when you move through that pain, when you move through that trauma, when you don't, you take your power back in that, when you find forgiveness in the process and do all of those things that better yourself and make yourself healthy, the feeling on the other side of that is it's priceless, because it allows you to see things in a different perspective.
• 38:37
  Susan: True, you recognize what's healthy and what's not.
• 38:41
  Susan: You know what's best for you, what's healthy for you, relationships that are healthy for you, and you don't allow the ones that are not, and so it's, it's, it's huge, it's big and that's.
• 39:03
  Susan: You know, that's where I got into the coaching part too, because I realized that once I did the work and I went through all the therapies, that I did different cognitive therapies and I got to a certain space, I realized that I felt like I could help others, I felt like I could meet them where they're at.
• 39:29
  Susan: You know, because I got to a point in my life where I was like, okay, now what, I'm a different person, now what?
• 39:38
  Susan: And I wanted to do that for other people, people that have gone through some healing and therapy and, you know, done the work, but they're feeling stuck.
• 39:52
  Mary: Yeah.
• 39:53
  Susan: And being able to meet them where they're at and create goals on where they want to go from there.
• 40:00
  Susan: So that's where my coaching comes into play.
• 40:04
  Mary: Okay, yeah.
• 40:06
  Mary: Well, I'm going to circle back on a couple things.
• 40:09
  Susan: Sure.
• 40:09
  Mary: I want to acknowledge what you said about the D in PTSD.
• 40:13
  Mary: Yes, and it's something I will tell you I struggle with.
• 40:17
  Mary: So we're talking about the word disorder and I have a lot of issues with the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, and if you look at how it's developed, it's political, there's a lot of stuff that goes into developing those diagnoses, but I tend to look at people from the lens of positive psychology how are you coping?
• 40:40
  Mary: And so I think another thing that you said when you talked about how you were coping, how you sort of shut down, you felt like people took advantage of you and you said I wasn't strong enough.
• 40:53
  Mary: And I'm going to say I wouldn't see it that way, because I feel like you got through it the way you needed to get through it.
• 41:03
  Mary: And I also want to point out that we're talking about fight or flight, but there are other, there's also freeze and there's fawn.
• 41:11
  Mary: And I feel like your go-to was more freeze.
• 41:15
  Mary: You sort of stayed small.
• 41:17
  Mary: I feel like you were almost like tense every day, like I just got a power through this day and pretend I'm not feeling all of these things.
• 41:26
  Mary: And however, we naturally respond to a trauma or any of anything that's difficult.
• 41:33
  Mary: We all sort of have our I call it essential nature, so we have our way that we would naturally do it because of how we're wired.
• 41:42
  Mary: And then you also had an environment you grew up in as a kid that helped to create this sense of I'm just going to freeze, I'm going to, like you mentioned that first night you just somebody told you to do something.
• 41:57
  Mary: You just did it.
• 41:58
  Mary: And so I think often we think back on how we reacted.
• 42:03
  Mary: And that's, I think, sometimes when the shame comes in and there's no shame in whatever comes up for you in that moment I mean I've had many, many female clients that had been in a situation of a sexual assault and they feel so guilty and they'll typically say I wish I had blank, I wish I had fought harder, and however we respond in that moment, we can't think that through.
• 42:33
  Mary: That is a gut reaction.
• 42:35
  Mary: And so for you you had someone that potentially could have said to you at that very tender moment, when you were just trying to open what I call the junk drawer and try to deal with all this, they basically shut the drawer and said there's nothing in here to see.
• 42:51
  Mary: So you never got to finish the cycle and so the cycle would be.
• 42:58
  Mary: When we have a stressor, we need to be able to complete that cycle.
• 43:02
  Mary: So our sympathetic nervous system kicks in the adrenaline you were very clear on in that moment.
• 43:08
  Mary: You saw your dad.
• 43:10
  Mary: You were looking at the ambulance.
• 43:12
  Mary: You can remember like your brain is trying to make sense to a reality that you've never experienced.
• 43:19
  Mary: So your body starts this and you had nowhere to land.
• 43:24
  Mary: I mean, I think your now husband helped you with that, but you never got to complete the cycle till that you saw Columbine.
• 43:33
  Mary: And I think life does that.
• 43:34
  Mary: It's like Susan, I don't think you're quite done with this, so let's, like you know, kick you in the head with this.
• 43:43
  Mary: And that's sort of, I think, a lot of times how we end up starting to move into that space where we get the help we need, because I'm guessing you probably had physical things that you felt, you know, holding all that in your body.
• 43:58
  Mary: So I just want to, if I can normalize this at all, that any way someone reacts is the best way they can, because you also had that threat of this isn't a one and done incident, that there is this potential danger to you, and I can't even imagine holding that and carrying that around at the same time.
• 44:20
  Mary: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:25
  Susan: I mean, but at the same time, it's like I'll tell you what just recently happened.
• 44:31
  Susan: So April 29th of last year, the main man who actually killed my dad physically, they found him dead in his cell and they said that he took his own life, which, 38 years later, I don't know, but I didn't care.
• 44:53
  Susan: I mean he's gone off this earth and no longer a threat to me, off this earth and no longer a threat to me.
• 45:17
  Susan: I had such a feeling of freedom when I found out that it was like someone opened, you know, at the theater, opened the curtains and I was like, all right, there is nothing holding me back, because even though I was doing podcasts, even though I was doing speaking things and getting out there and putting my face out there, I still had that little thing in the back of my head of what if?
• 45:44
  Mary: I'm sure yeah.
• 45:46
  Susan: And that what if?
• 45:48
  Susan: Isn't there anymore?
• 45:49
  Susan: And I feel like no holds barred, I can go out, I can speak, I have no fears around that anymore.
• 46:03
  Susan: And same with my brother.
• 46:06
  Susan: My brother feels the same way.
• 46:07
  Susan: It's freeing.
• 46:10
  Susan: It really is no-transcript.
• 46:28
  Susan: And I also didn't recognize, like some people around me recognize, things that would trigger me and I didn't I hate the word trigger that was killed, or you know, I heard taps or I heard amazing grace or I smelled certain things or I whatever it would trigger me into things and it would start to I would start to dive.
• 47:06
  Susan: This is prior to me healing and I didn't understand that either.
• 47:13
  Susan: So it was very confusing to me.
• 47:16
  Susan: Like, why can't I watch this movie like everybody else?
• 47:21
  Susan: Like I remember when Robocop came up, I had friends who went to the movie and they and actually my, my husband went to the movie with some friends and they all came home and said you are not seeing this movie, you are not seeing this movie, you know.
• 47:38
  Susan: And so people were looking out for me in that way as I got a little bit older.
• 47:44
  Susan: But you know, it was a frustration for me because I'm like, hey, why can't I see this movie, why can't I have that experience, you know.
• 47:55
  Susan: But they were trying to protect me and they knew, you know, they knew me enough to know that it would hurt me to watch that stuff.
• 48:20
  Susan: It's still when you have this and you're, even though you're managing it, I still live with it, right, and there are still times where I again hate this word, triggered with things you know.
• 48:30
  Susan: I'll give you an example, and this was recent.
• 48:36
  Susan: We had a shooting in Boulder, colorado.
• 48:42
  Susan: A police officer was killed.
• 48:44
  Susan: He ran into a grocery store to protect people and he was killed and 10 other people were killed as well in the store and he was killed and 10 other people were killed as well in the store.
• 48:57
  Susan: And this is a nationwide store.
• 49:00
  Susan: So I decided a while back that if any kind of shooting, anything at all, I was not going to watch the news.
• 49:11
  Susan: I was not going to do that to myself, I needed to do things that were healthier for me, and so I didn't watch anything.
• 49:22
  Susan: Now, obviously, stuff came up on your phone and you read articles and whatnot, social media, this and that, so it's not like I could totally turn it off, but I didn't choose to watch the coverage and I didn't choose to watch the funeral of the police officer, and I chose to do the healthy thing and not do that.
• 49:47
  Susan: I went to the grocery store one day same chain so they had a little memorial board in the front of the store with all of the victims faces on it, including the police officer, and I had my little cart and I looked over and I saw it, you know, and I thought OK, and I kept going and then all of a sudden my fingers started to tingle and I started to sweat and I knew I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna have a panic attack.
• 50:23
  Susan: In the middle of the store and people were looking at me, um, because I, I, I know I just had this like far away, look on my face, and so what I could do was to get out of there as fast as I could.
• 50:39
  Susan: So I went and I like shot through and bought my groceries and got out, threw them in the car, and I got in the car and I thought, what can I do to calm myself?
• 50:50
  Susan: Because I knew my nervous system was through the roof.
• 50:54
  Susan: So I went back to visualization and going to my happy place and doing my breathing techniques and all of that, and I was able to regulate my system enough in order to start the car and go home.
• 51:07
  Susan: But it's just, and thank God I had the tool.
• 51:13
  Mary: Yes, yeah, for sure.
• 51:15
  Susan: I had the tool, and that's the way I tell people.
• 51:18
  Susan: That's the difference I can go through the same type of triggering event that I went through before and have a same reaction, but this time I have the tool to pull me out of it.
• 51:38
  Mary: Yeah, and that's really the key.
• 51:41
  Mary: As you're saying that, I think people think it's linear.
• 51:45
  Mary: If you go to therapy, you heal and it's linear and it's not.
• 51:50
  Mary: But the key is just what you said that now you have you know what's happening, you, so you can understand it in your brain, but your amygdala, which is the smoke detector in your brain, that it got a whiff of smoke and it's like sending the alarm out.
• 52:07
  Mary: But now you know, so you're equipped with that, and I think back to even what you're.
• 52:11
  Mary: So you're equipped with that, and I think back to even when you found the therapist that started to help and when she said to you these things are normal, that I think sometimes things feel so out of control that we can believe I am crazy, Like no one feels like this.
• 52:30
  Mary: But there's a huge continuum of how we react when we experience trauma.
• 52:38
  Mary: So all of the things that you did pleasing, staying small that was your amygdala telling you this is the only way we're going to get through this.
• 52:44
  Mary: And until somebody says to you all of these things are within the realm of coping and normal, they're just not helping anymore.
• 52:55
  Mary: You know, I think initially they got you through that first day or that first night, and then it was like okay, and then you started to unravel everything.
• 53:06
  Mary: So when you talk about breathing and those things, I think people can think, oh, that's too simple, but you have a context for it.
• 53:13
  Mary: It's that mindfulness and grounding and knowing.
• 53:16
  Mary: In this moment I'm safe.
• 53:17
  Mary: It's just my brain saying, oh, my God, I'm seeing these things.
• 53:21
  Mary: And you bring your nervous system back online and calm it down by those things.
• 53:28
  Mary: So those are really valuable.
• 53:31
  Susan: Yeah, I mean, and I still use box breathing to today, like I still use it, I teach it, I teach, I taught it to my kids, cause I think it's very important to be able to have that type of tool in order to regulate your nervous system when it starts to you know, and and being able to calm calm it to a point where you're thinking clearly, um and so, yeah, I mean it's, and I I talk about that situation in the book, because people do need to realize that this is not a one and done.
• 54:16
  Susan: You don't go through the healing and all of a sudden you don't have things that pop up because it does.
• 54:24
  Susan: But the difference is that you have the tools for your own self that you know, that are going to help you, that you can utilize.
• 54:35
  Susan: And since then, you know, I've learned grounding technique and I've learned meditation, and I've learned, you know, a lot of things like that that are very helpful.
• 54:50
  Susan: But if you would have told me to meditate years ago, I would have looked at you sideways yes um, and the first thing, you know when, when I first met my therapist and I talk about this because you said, things aren't linear and they aren't, and the littlest things can be very powerful things so she knew I was a mess, she knew that I had so many different things going on, but she didn't want to overwhelm me.
• 55:26
  Susan: So what we did was we kind of broke it down into chunks.
• 55:31
  Susan: And so the first session I had with her, she said what is the one thing that you're dealing with right now that if we can help, that it might help you with other things?
• 55:46
  Susan: And I told her I'm not sleeping.
• 55:49
  Susan: And she asked me what happens when I'm getting ready to go to bed.
• 55:55
  Susan: And I said I start to feel anxious.
• 55:57
  Susan: And then, you know, anytime I shut my eyes, I go back to the night of my dad's death and blah, blah, blah and I go to a dark place, right.
• 56:06
  Susan: So I'm terrified at this point and I don't want to go to sleep.
• 56:10
  Susan: So I just lay there and stare at the walls for hours and hours and hours.
• 56:15
  Susan: And she said okay, have you ever heard of journaling?
• 56:19
  Susan: And I thought no.
• 56:21
  Susan: And she said well, people can journal in different ways.
• 56:26
  Susan: She said they can write, they can use music, they can use music, they can do art.
• 56:34
  Susan: So she says what do you like to do?
• 56:37
  Susan: And I said well, I write.
• 56:38
  Susan: And she said great, Take a pad of paper and a pen, Put it by your bed.
• 56:48
  Susan: And before you go to bed she gave me a couple of prompts.
• 56:51
  Susan: So before you go to bed, I want you to take everything that's swirling around in your brain and put it on that paper.
• 56:58
  Susan: And she says don't worry about punctuation, Don't worry about spelling.
• 57:02
  Susan: She said don't even worry about if it makes any sense, Just put it on the paper.
• 57:08
  Susan: And I looked at her like she was nuts, Like I was like how is that going to help, Really?
• 57:16
  Susan: So I did that night.
• 57:19
  Susan: I went home, I bought a pad of paper specifically for this, I put it by my bed with a pen and right before I went to bed, I just put everything onto that paper, put everything onto that paper, and I got a couple of hours of sleep and I was like no.
• 57:44
  Susan: And the next night I got a couple more hours of sleep and I thought, okay.
• 57:50
  Susan: And by the third night I was sleeping like a baby.
• 57:51
  Susan: I slept through the night.
• 57:52
  Mary: In fact, I woke up and I was like wait, it's daylight, what I slept through the night, you know.
• 57:56
  Susan: And the other thing is, because I didn't sleep all night before, I was like shaky, you would be like, do you have too much coffee?
• 58:07
  Mary: today.
• 58:13
  Susan: And I'm like I'm not a coffee drinker, but, um, yeah, and.
• 58:18
  Susan: And so I went back to her and she said how did it go?
• 58:22
  Susan: And I said oh, I've been sleeping for four days.
• 58:26
  Susan: And she said great, great, Keep doing it.
• 58:30
  Susan: Yeah, Keep doing it, great, keep doing it, yeah, keep doing it.
• 58:40
  Susan: And I just thought god something so small that anyone can do right can give you some relief.
• 58:43
  Susan: Yeah, it was shocking to me yeah that's so.
• 58:47
  Susan: You know, when I talk to people, I'm like do you, do you journal?
• 58:53
  Mary: Yeah, no, it's one more thing where we can just easily dismiss it Like that's not going to do anything.
• 58:59
  Mary: So you had that, you were open to it.
• 59:01
  Mary: Well, susan, I want to thank you so much for sharing your story, for also being very honest about your experiences with therapy, because I think it's really important for people to understand that.
• 59:16
  Mary: And before the show, we talked about this example.
• 59:19
  Mary: Sometimes you hire a roofer and they don't do a good job, or you hire somebody to do work around your house and they don't.
• 59:25
  Mary: It's the same thing and a therapist is a human and what they should do is say I don't feel like I have the expert knowledge in whatever area you know.
• 59:36
  Mary: Fill in the blank.
• 59:37
  Mary: It's ethical to refer someone, right, but it's also important that if you don't feel okay, if you don't feel connected to that person, it's okay to say could you give me a referral?
• 59:50
  Mary: Or just say I think I'm going to move on to something different.
• 59:54
  Susan: Yeah, you can just say I just don't feel like we're a right fit, right yeah.
• 59:59
  Mary: So I appreciate that and I appreciate everything that you shared and your amazing resilience.
• 1:00:04
  Mary: And can you tell us what is the name of your book and what other things can you offer and where can people find you?
• 1:00:11
  Susan: Sure, the name of my book is the Other Side of the Gun my Journey from Trauma to Resiliency.
• 1:00:17
  Susan: It is on Amazon, it's in paperback form, it's on Kindle and coming soon it will be an audio book.
• 1:00:26
  Susan: I do have a website.
• 1:00:30
  Susan: It's susansnowspeakscom.
• 1:00:33
  Susan: It is a one-stop shop for me.
• 1:00:36
  Susan: It's got information on my speaking.
• 1:00:39
  Susan: It's got information on my coaching.
• 1:00:41
  Susan: I do offer a 40-minute free discovery call to see if we're a good fit, and then it also talks about my book as well.
• 1:00:53
  Mary: Great.
• 1:00:54
  Mary: And, of course, I will put all that in the show notes so if you were driving or walking, you don't have to worry about writing it down.
• 1:00:59
  Mary: So thank you again, susan.
• 1:01:01
  Mary: Thank you and thank you everyone for listening.
• 1:01:04
  Mary: If you enjoyed this episode, I would love if you would give it a quick rating.
• 1:01:08
  Mary: On many platforms it's as easy as scrolling to the bottom of the show and clicking the stars.
• 1:01:13
  Mary: You can comment too, if you'd like and if you want even more plant wisdom, click the link in the show notes to join my email community and receive my weekly musings on plants and their lessons in your inbox each week.
• 1:01:25
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.
• 1:01:32
  Mary: Thank you.