Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #246 Jason Flom with Clinton Young

Transcript

#246 Jason Flom with Clinton Young · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, at age eighteen, Clinton Young
0:05
Speaker 1: was newly released from Texas Juvenile prison and was the
0:08
Speaker 1: youngest and newest member of a group of acquaintances with
0:10
Speaker 1: David Page, Mark Ray, and Darnell McCoy. That November, Clinton
0:15
Speaker 1: was present when David Page shot and killed two men
0:18
Speaker 1: in separate incidents, Doyle Douglas and Samuel Petrie. After the
0:22
Speaker 1: second incident, Clinton split from Page, who immediately went to
0:25
Speaker 1: the police to control the narrative. All four men were
0:28
Speaker 1: brought in, and while Clinton refused to cooperate, Ray and
0:31
Speaker 1: McCoy joined Paige in exchange for leniency. When it became
0:35
Speaker 1: clear that Clinton was being targeted for the death penalty,
0:38
Speaker 1: he made suggestions to police that turned up evidence corroborating
0:41
Speaker 1: his innocence. However, that evidence was either explained, ignored, or disappeared.
0:47
Speaker 1: The state's case the trial relied solely on the incentivized
0:50
Speaker 1: testimonies of Paige, Ray, and McCoy. The defense failed to
0:54
Speaker 1: point out conflicting details and inconsistencies in their testimonies or
0:58
Speaker 1: the ballistics in DNA evidence that corroborated Clinton's version of events.
1:03
Speaker 1: Without access to destroyed or missing evidence that exculpated Clinton.
1:07
Speaker 1: He was convicted and sentenced to death. While Clinton's appeals
1:10
Speaker 1: were repeatedly denied. Growing evidence of Page, Ray and McCoy's
1:15
Speaker 1: false testimony, as well as new forensic evidence exculpate and Clinton,
1:19
Speaker 1: eventually led to a stay just a week ahead of
1:21
Speaker 1: his execution date in twenty seventeen. Soon, David Page's confession
1:26
Speaker 1: on the record, along with the revelation of significant prosecutorial
1:31
Speaker 1: misconduct affecting hundreds of cases, including Clinton's, led the court
1:35
Speaker 1: to overturn his conviction. But he's not out of the
1:37
Speaker 1: woods yet. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction.
1:57
Speaker 1: So often since I started making this show over five
1:59
Speaker 1: years years ago, we do an episode where I go, Okay,
2:02
Speaker 1: now I've heard everything, but now maybe up to today,
2:07
Speaker 1: I can really say that because you're going to hear
2:09
Speaker 1: some stuff today that is truly mind blowing, even by
2:13
Speaker 1: the crazy standards of the rawful conviction cases that we
2:16
Speaker 1: cover week in and week out. Because this case involves
2:21
Speaker 1: an innocent guy who ended up being sentenced to death,
2:23
Speaker 1: We've heard that story before. It involves an advocate who
2:27
Speaker 1: moved from the Netherlands to Texas, so that she could
2:32
Speaker 1: represent and try to get justice for our subject today,
2:35
Speaker 1: Clinton Young, and get ready for this one. It involves
2:40
Speaker 1: a prosecutor who was moonlighting writing opinions for the judge. Yeah,
2:45
Speaker 1: you heard that correctly. The prosecutor was making a little
2:48
Speaker 1: extra money on the side writing rulings in his own cases.
2:53
Speaker 1: So now I can catch my breath and introduce the
2:58
Speaker 1: very woman I was just talking to you about. I'm
3:01
Speaker 1: proud to say, Attorney Meryl Pontier, welcome to wrongful conviction.
3:06
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me Jason.
3:08
Speaker 1: And now fresh out of death row. Actually, those are
3:13
Speaker 1: some crazy words you even have to say. And live
3:16
Speaker 1: from the Midland County Jail, we have our featured guest today,
3:21
Speaker 1: Clinton Young. Clinton, welcome to wronful conviction.
3:23
Speaker 3: Thank you for the opportunity.
3:25
Speaker 1: Now to explain this to our audience. Clinton is off
3:27
Speaker 1: the death row. Otherwise I'd be conducting this interview in
3:30
Speaker 1: person at the Polunsky Unit in Livingston, Texas, outside of Houston.
3:34
Speaker 1: But instead he's on the phone from Midland County Jail,
3:37
Speaker 1: where he's a way to get decision about whether he
3:39
Speaker 1: will be retried or perhaps released to a weight retrial
3:42
Speaker 1: or the charges may be dropped all together considering the
3:46
Speaker 1: story that you're about to hear, And I feel like
3:50
Speaker 1: I really should give a bit of a disclaimer here.
3:52
Speaker 1: As some of our guests have exhibited criminal behavior prior
3:55
Speaker 1: to their wrongful conviction, That's definitely true for Clinton. I mean, he,
3:59
Speaker 1: you know, who up in a very difficult environment. You know,
4:02
Speaker 1: had a history of drug use and car theft and
4:04
Speaker 1: different run ins with the law, all of which are
4:07
Speaker 1: just background that ultimately led to him being present during
4:11
Speaker 1: the commission of two murders for which he bears no
4:15
Speaker 1: culpability other than being next to someone who decided to
4:19
Speaker 1: make that grim choice to kill the same person that
4:22
Speaker 1: ultimately pointed the finger at him. Now, by his own admission,
4:26
Speaker 1: he could have done more to bring that person to justice,
4:28
Speaker 1: But the fact is he did not plan or take
4:31
Speaker 1: part in these murders. So while you may not agree
4:34
Speaker 1: with all of Clinton's choices, first of all, you can't
4:37
Speaker 1: walk a mile in his shoes. And two, he didn't
4:40
Speaker 1: actually kill anyone. He's innocent of both murders for which
4:44
Speaker 1: he was convicted. But we're getting ahead of ourselves here. Clinton,
4:47
Speaker 1: tell us about your life growing up.
4:49
Speaker 3: Well, I guess to still have my life and the
4:52
Speaker 3: chaotic path. My mother was seventeen, my father was thirty five.
4:56
Speaker 3: He lied about his age lot about having kid, ends
5:00
Speaker 3: up pregnant, They get married. He was very, very very
5:03
Speaker 3: abusive to her and his other children. So after she
5:07
Speaker 3: has me, he continues to beat on her, so she
5:09
Speaker 3: finally leaves. Matter of fact, my dad basically kidnapped me
5:13
Speaker 3: from my mom and only would give me back to
5:16
Speaker 3: her if she signed papers saying that she wouldn't request
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Speaker 3: child support and all this stuff. So fast forward some
5:22
Speaker 3: time he meets my stepfather and they moving together. They
5:26
Speaker 3: get married. I was hyperactive also, and eventually the school
5:29
Speaker 3: decided to put me on add medication rhythming and they
5:33
Speaker 3: didn't help anything. You know, it made me feel worse,
5:35
Speaker 3: and you know, I had problems in school beyond that
5:38
Speaker 3: growing up. You know, my stepfather unfortunately was an alcoholic
5:41
Speaker 3: and I wasn't his son. But there's usually a dynamic
5:44
Speaker 3: that takes place with stepchildren and stepparents is usually a conflict.
5:48
Speaker 3: So then my mom and my stepfather are arguing all
5:51
Speaker 3: the time because how he acts towards me. So my
5:53
Speaker 3: home life was really.
5:54
Speaker 1: Chaotic growing up well, that would be such a difficult
5:57
Speaker 1: situation to grow up in for anyone from that environment.
6:01
Speaker 1: You ended up with some run ins with the law,
6:02
Speaker 1: and those were minor things, relatively speaking, but such that
6:05
Speaker 1: you ended up spending two and a half years in
6:07
Speaker 1: juvenile prison in Texas.
6:09
Speaker 2: So this all started in the Longview area in Texas.
6:14
Speaker 2: Clinton just got out of juvenile prison and I think
6:18
Speaker 2: that traumatized him heavily, and he got addicted to drugs
6:23
Speaker 2: and started hanging out with the people that you don't
6:26
Speaker 2: want your kids to hang out with. Mark Ray, David Page,
6:30
Speaker 2: and Darnell McCoy, his co defendants in this case. One
6:34
Speaker 2: day in November two thousand and one, David Page, Darnell McCoy,
6:38
Speaker 2: Mark Ray, Clinton, and Doyle Douglas were all sitting in
6:42
Speaker 2: a car and they were on their way to buy drugs.
6:46
Speaker 2: Clinton was sitting in the passenger seat and Doyle Douglas
6:51
Speaker 2: was driving the car. It was his car, and the
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Speaker 2: other three were sitting in a back And as soon
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Speaker 2: as they arrived at the house where they were going
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Speaker 2: to buy drugs, David Page got out of the car
7:02
Speaker 2: got up to the front door of the house. There
7:04
Speaker 2: was some confusion there was no drugs. They didn't buy drugs.
7:07
Speaker 2: And David Page walks back to the car and he's
7:11
Speaker 2: standing on the left side of the car. Clinton is
7:14
Speaker 2: still sitting inside on the passenger seat, and at that
7:18
Speaker 2: point Doyle Douglas gets shot in the head twice. David
7:23
Speaker 2: Page has always said that Clinton was someone who did it,
7:26
Speaker 2: and Clinton has always said that no, David Page did them.
7:29
Speaker 1: And it's important to note that it doesn't really matter
7:31
Speaker 1: what David Page said because Doyle Douglas is head wound.
7:34
Speaker 1: Support Clinton's version of advance.
7:36
Speaker 3: All sit in the pass and see the car, though
7:38
Speaker 3: Douglas was sitting in the driver's seat of the car,
7:41
Speaker 3: and they said I saw the flakes in the head.
7:44
Speaker 3: There's no way I could have because he was shot
7:45
Speaker 3: in the left side of the head, in the back
7:47
Speaker 3: of the head. How cats she the person that lifts
7:48
Speaker 3: side of the head and over three feet away if
7:50
Speaker 3: I'm in the passioner side of the car.
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Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. So there isn't an opportunity really to agree
7:56
Speaker 1: or disagree about this gunshot when you'd have to suspend
7:59
Speaker 1: all this.
8:00
Speaker 2: What they all agree on was that after that happened,
8:04
Speaker 2: the body of Doyle Douglas was put in a trunk
8:07
Speaker 2: and they drove to a secluded area in the woods
8:10
Speaker 2: where the body was dumped and Mark Ray shot Doyle
8:15
Speaker 2: Douglas a third time in the head. Now after that,
8:19
Speaker 2: they all get in the car Doyle Douglas's car, and
8:23
Speaker 2: Darnell McCoy and Mark Ray are dropped off at their
8:26
Speaker 2: homes while Clinton and David Page drive off and Clint
8:32
Speaker 2: was going to go see his girlfriend who was at
8:35
Speaker 2: that time in Midland on the other side of Texas,
8:39
Speaker 2: and David Page decided to ride along with him, and
8:43
Speaker 2: after a few hours in the car, David Page didn't
8:46
Speaker 2: want to drive around in Doyle Douglas's car, so he
8:49
Speaker 2: decides he needs a new vehicle. They stop at a
8:52
Speaker 2: Berkshire store parking lot and a man named Samuel Petrie
8:58
Speaker 2: is kidnapp and his car is taken, and, according to
9:04
Speaker 2: David Page's own most recent confession, as he walked up
9:08
Speaker 2: to Samuel Petrie's car, hold him at gunpoint and said
9:12
Speaker 2: you're coming with us?
9:14
Speaker 1: And Clinton, did you know this was happening?
9:17
Speaker 3: I just fee him kidnapped. I was inside the store
9:20
Speaker 3: and I walked out and David Page was sitting in
9:22
Speaker 3: the truck talked about that. What's up, and He's like, well,
9:25
Speaker 3: we needed a big and so I got back in
9:27
Speaker 3: the car and I got David Page's gun and I
9:29
Speaker 3: emptied it. And I even told mister Petrie. I said, look, man,
9:34
Speaker 3: trying to figure the situation down. I said, look, don't
9:36
Speaker 3: worry about nothing. That guns empty, man. Okay. He's like,
9:38
Speaker 3: I don't understand. I said, look, man, the situation got
9:41
Speaker 3: out of control. We've got to just try to saw
9:43
Speaker 3: everything out. Okay, but just relax. The guns empty. And
9:46
Speaker 3: by that time Page got back in the truck and
9:48
Speaker 3: I gave the guns back the Page, but I didn't
9:50
Speaker 3: tell him it was empty. I was just trying to
9:51
Speaker 3: figure out how the best resolve it and the best
9:53
Speaker 3: way possible it. I'm not saying I made the right
9:56
Speaker 3: choices in life or anything like this, but I took
9:59
Speaker 3: effort to make there's nothing happened to this man. I
10:01
Speaker 3: saw a sleep short after that. Right sometime period wh
10:04
Speaker 3: while I was asleep, he found out the gun was empty.
10:06
Speaker 3: I just woke up at Headland and I told David
10:10
Speaker 3: Page said, look, man, she keep pet this dude, go man,
10:12
Speaker 3: I mean, this shit needs the end. So I had
10:14
Speaker 3: to call my girlfriend on the phone and I told Page.
10:17
Speaker 3: I said, oh, man, I accidentally use the phone. I said, Look,
10:20
Speaker 3: nothing get happened to this dude. He said, they're gonna
10:22
Speaker 3: trace it back on us. In my mind, I thought
10:24
Speaker 3: I was doing the smart thing right, trying to protect Petrie.
10:27
Speaker 3: I talked to my Eggs and she says that the
10:30
Speaker 3: police are looking for David Page. And I looked over
10:33
Speaker 3: the Page. I said, hey, they say you need to
10:35
Speaker 3: talk to your dad because the textans ringers are looking
10:37
Speaker 3: for you. And he said for what, And I said,
10:39
Speaker 3: but it start to happen, he texted her, I guess.
10:41
Speaker 3: And when I said that, the irons get big and
10:45
Speaker 3: he snaps his head and looks back at seeing of Petrie.
10:48
Speaker 3: What I found out later was while I was asleep,
10:51
Speaker 3: he's sitting there talking to this guy about this whole
10:53
Speaker 3: life story, and he told them all kinds of stuff
10:55
Speaker 3: about him. So if I go back to sleep and
10:58
Speaker 3: I woke up with the gunshots, Clint.
11:00
Speaker 2: Was asleep at the time that David Page pulled over
11:04
Speaker 2: at the oil field and the gunshots woke him up.
11:08
Speaker 2: And that's actually confirmed by several people who were in
11:12
Speaker 2: the Mintley County jail with David Page before trial, but
11:16
Speaker 2: also in twenty ten when Clint had an evident Sherry
11:19
Speaker 2: hearing and David Page was bragging about the murder, how
11:23
Speaker 2: he killed Samuel Petrie, and how he put all the
11:26
Speaker 2: name on Clinton, and how Clint was actually a sleep.
11:29
Speaker 3: I woke up with the gunshots. I dumped ovand I
11:32
Speaker 3: ran back there. The pantry was laying on the ground
11:34
Speaker 3: and he was standing there, and I was like, man,
11:36
Speaker 3: what the fuck. I was tossing them out, basically saying
11:39
Speaker 3: like I gave my word, nothing's going to happen to
11:41
Speaker 3: this guy now. I said, Man, you're supposed to let
11:43
Speaker 3: him go. And he kept saying he knew too much,
11:46
Speaker 3: he knew too much, that he knew my name, he
11:48
Speaker 3: knew my name.
11:55
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.
12:00
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12:03
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12:09
Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and
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Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform,
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Speaker 1: the AIG pro bono program provides free legal services and
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Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals.
12:29
Speaker 2: Several hours later, unfortunately, mister Petrie is found shot dead
12:35
Speaker 2: in the head in an oil field. Data Page goes
12:38
Speaker 2: to the place, turns himself in and says that Clint
12:42
Speaker 2: was the one who did both murders, and Clinton later
12:45
Speaker 2: gets arrested in Midlands.
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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if anyone knows how they
12:50
Speaker 1: would react if they were in Clinton's shoes. He was
12:53
Speaker 1: dealing with somebody whom he knew to be extremely violent
12:58
Speaker 1: and capable of murdering him, murder one person ultimately a second,
13:03
Speaker 1: and I don't envy him being in that situation. And
13:06
Speaker 1: we know that so often in these situations, the person
13:09
Speaker 1: who goes and then points the finger at somebody else
13:11
Speaker 1: gets better treatment. So Page goes to the police and
13:15
Speaker 1: puts all the blame on Clinton. But neither scene was
13:19
Speaker 1: ever really investigated. Right Minor states the cops never even
13:22
Speaker 1: went to the first crime scene.
13:23
Speaker 2: They did not investigate the first crime scene at all.
13:27
Speaker 2: They did not go out there to check anything. The
13:30
Speaker 2: only thing that they did is they took possession of
13:33
Speaker 2: the car of Doyle Douglas and they investigated the trunk
13:37
Speaker 2: for blood traces to confirm that Doyle's body was indeed
13:42
Speaker 2: put in the trunk, and that was confirmed. After they'd
13:46
Speaker 2: done that, they destroyed the car, so they didn't test
13:49
Speaker 2: it for a gunshot resident or anything to determine from
13:53
Speaker 2: which position shots were fired. They could have done a
13:56
Speaker 2: little bit more then, just investigate the trunk, but they
14:00
Speaker 2: destroyed the car after that, so no investigation can be
14:03
Speaker 2: done at this point. That's about as much as they did.
14:07
Speaker 1: Okay, so they destroyed the car at any other evidence
14:11
Speaker 1: in there what remained of it anyway, And luckily the
14:15
Speaker 1: ballistics and gunshot was from the first incident exculpaid Clinton.
14:19
Speaker 1: But for the second murder they didn't really do much
14:22
Speaker 1: of an investigation either. They took a few pictures at
14:25
Speaker 1: the brookshears, but didn't obtain the surveillance video, or so
14:28
Speaker 1: they claimed, the very same surveillance video that would have
14:31
Speaker 1: exculpated Clinton. Nor did they find the gloves that David
14:35
Speaker 1: Page wore when he shot Samuel Petrick until way later,
14:38
Speaker 1: and they only found those when Clinton told them to
14:41
Speaker 1: go back to the scene, something he did when it
14:43
Speaker 1: became clear that they were going to pursue the death
14:45
Speaker 1: penalty against him, because at first, when David Page pointed
14:49
Speaker 1: the finger at you, they brought you in Clinton, and
14:53
Speaker 1: you knew how they operated and were not going to cooperate, right,
14:57
Speaker 1: You knew better than to cooperate, was what we always
14:59
Speaker 1: tell the audience. Don't talk to the police anyway. Tell
15:02
Speaker 1: us about that.
15:03
Speaker 3: They put me in one room asking question. I said,
15:05
Speaker 3: I want lawyer. They put me in another room and
15:06
Speaker 3: had a female to take them coming down and talked
15:08
Speaker 3: to me. I told her my name, my security number,
15:11
Speaker 3: and my address, properly identify myself and she don't answer
15:15
Speaker 3: me questions, and like I said, hey, I told you all.
15:17
Speaker 3: I wanted an attorney, and she goes jirk. I die.
15:21
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, you're not helping your situation like that.
15:23
Speaker 3: Talk to me, not crazy. So she storms out and
15:26
Speaker 3: they're playing this game or they opened the door in
15:29
Speaker 3: another room diagonal. I see my ex girlfriend sitting there.
15:32
Speaker 3: They close the door. They opened the door again. I
15:34
Speaker 3: see my coldercenter sitting there. She comes back in there
15:37
Speaker 3: and she's all that, yeah, we got you, and he's
15:40
Speaker 3: telling us everything we need to know. I said, okay,
15:42
Speaker 3: I guess you don't need me. Huh. But I've dealt
15:44
Speaker 3: with enough cops. I know what. They try to sell it, right,
15:47
Speaker 3: and I'm like, okay, whatever, lady, I said, look, I
15:49
Speaker 3: don't know what the heard you're talking about. I was asleep. Okay,
15:53
Speaker 3: I ain't killed nobody. I said, look, test my hand,
15:55
Speaker 3: take my DNA, take my hair and samples whatever. I
15:58
Speaker 3: ain't kill nobody.
16:00
Speaker 2: So when Clint was initially arrested, he did not cooperate,
16:03
Speaker 2: but after it became clear that he was their intended
16:06
Speaker 2: target for the death penalty, he made a few suggestions
16:09
Speaker 2: to investigators that would prove his innocence, and at this
16:12
Speaker 2: point police only had taken pictures at the Berkshire's parking
16:16
Speaker 2: lot and had not obtained civilians footage that would have
16:19
Speaker 2: shown David Page kidnapping Samuel Petrie while Clint was actually
16:23
Speaker 2: inside the store, but that footage was either never obtained
16:26
Speaker 2: or conveniently lost. David Page had also told them about
16:30
Speaker 2: a seven to eleven where they had stopped, which had
16:32
Speaker 2: an unintended effect. They obtained civilians footage that showed that
16:36
Speaker 2: Clint had not kidnapped David Page, but rather when that
16:39
Speaker 2: Page was alone in the truck with the gun and
16:41
Speaker 2: Samuel Petrie for over eleven minutes. Surprisingly, the police knew
16:46
Speaker 2: that because David Page admitted it, and this clearly impeached
16:49
Speaker 2: a state's theory at trial that Page was kidnapped and
16:52
Speaker 2: under Clint's control. David Page could have done whatever he
16:55
Speaker 2: wanted in those eleven minutes if he was in danger
16:57
Speaker 2: from Clint, but he wasn't. Detectives to find to the
17:00
Speaker 2: existence of this footage, but the prosecution denied that it
17:03
Speaker 2: was ever handed over to them, so that was not
17:06
Speaker 2: present that trial. Now. Clint also told them to go
17:08
Speaker 2: back to the second crime scene and find the clothes
17:10
Speaker 2: that David Page had worn when he shot Samuel Petrie
17:13
Speaker 2: and to test them for DNA, But unfortunately the gloves
17:16
Speaker 2: were not used to the way this should have been
17:18
Speaker 2: a trial right.
17:19
Speaker 1: They could have tested them for gunshot residue and David
17:22
Speaker 1: Page's DNA, which would have corroborated Clinton's version of events.
17:25
Speaker 3: They sent the gloves to the crime lab, and instead
17:27
Speaker 3: of testing the inside of the gloves for DNA and
17:29
Speaker 3: the altsign for GSR, they requested DNA testing on the
17:33
Speaker 3: outside of the gloves, and the DPS lab was confused
17:38
Speaker 3: by the requests, so they called up the Midland County
17:41
Speaker 3: districturnys Off. There is a record of this. The expert
17:45
Speaker 3: at the DPS lab, the part of public said the
17:47
Speaker 3: crime lab tided, are you sure you want DNA testing
17:50
Speaker 3: on the outside of the gloves, on the inside of
17:52
Speaker 3: their gloves, and they also explained to him, look, these
17:55
Speaker 3: gloves were brand new. Who were about the gloves and
17:58
Speaker 3: the DA told them only do DNA on the outside
18:01
Speaker 3: of the gloves. So the ballistic guy was afraid to
18:05
Speaker 3: do GSR type testing because he knew the chemicals could
18:10
Speaker 3: destroy the DNA. So basically the way they've done the
18:14
Speaker 3: requests for the gloves, it made it where no proper
18:17
Speaker 3: tests could be done on the gloves. My lawyers had
18:20
Speaker 3: to request DNA testing on the inside of the gloves
18:23
Speaker 3: and it shows David Page's DNA well. The DA's office
18:27
Speaker 3: talked to David Page about the gloves and the lead residue.
18:30
Speaker 3: So David Page got on the stand and said, oh, yeah,
18:33
Speaker 3: those are my gloves. I worked in them all the time.
18:35
Speaker 3: I used them to move scrap metal, lead pipes and
18:38
Speaker 3: things like that. That made it with the gloves was
18:41
Speaker 3: of no value to me forensically, But the DA's office
18:45
Speaker 3: did not tell my attorneys that the expert had told
18:48
Speaker 3: them those gloves were brand new, and it just so happened.
18:50
Speaker 3: My COATA said had bought them gloves the ninth of
18:53
Speaker 3: November twenty fourth, two thousand and one, at an easy
18:56
Speaker 3: Marked gas station in Longview. Well in six my lawyers
19:01
Speaker 3: they got permission to get testing on David Bator's love
19:04
Speaker 3: and he come back saturated and got shot residue.
19:07
Speaker 1: Right, But we're getting ahead of ourselves, So Merril, how
19:10
Speaker 1: long was it from the time of Clinton's arrest till
19:12
Speaker 1: the trial?
19:13
Speaker 2: He got arrested in November two thousand and one, and
19:16
Speaker 2: his trials started in I believe in March two thousand
19:19
Speaker 2: and three. So Clint gets two court appointed lawyers who
19:24
Speaker 2: represented him, and the state's theory was that Clinton so
19:30
Speaker 2: badly wanted to see his girlfriend in Mittler County that
19:34
Speaker 2: he was willing killed two people in order to steal
19:38
Speaker 2: their vehicles so he could drive from Longview to Midland
19:42
Speaker 2: to go see the girlfriend. That was the state's overall theory.
19:46
Speaker 2: And there was no DNA evidence. There's no forensic evidence,
19:50
Speaker 2: no ballistic evidence that conclusively pointed to Clint as the shooter,
19:55
Speaker 2: so all the state had to work with was witness testimony.
19:59
Speaker 2: David Page said that Clinton shot Doyle Douglas in the
20:03
Speaker 2: head in the car. Mark Ray and Dardill McCoy confirmed that,
20:08
Speaker 2: and Mark Ray also confessed to shooting Doyle Dougas in
20:12
Speaker 2: the head when they dumbed him in the isolated area.
20:15
Speaker 2: Doyle Douglas had three gunshot wounds in his head. Two
20:18
Speaker 2: gunshot wounds came from the same gun, and then there
20:22
Speaker 2: was a third gunshot wound which came from a different
20:24
Speaker 2: gun on the right of the head. The third gunshot
20:27
Speaker 2: wound was inflicted by Mark Ray. So we're working with
20:30
Speaker 2: two gunshot wounds that were inflicted while everyone's still sitting
20:34
Speaker 2: in the car. How is it logical for Clint to
20:38
Speaker 2: shoot Doyle Douglas on the left side of his head
20:41
Speaker 2: and the back of his head while he is sitting
20:43
Speaker 2: on his right side and David Page is standing on
20:47
Speaker 2: the outside of the car on the left side. So
20:49
Speaker 2: he was in the perfect position to shoot the victim
20:53
Speaker 2: at that point.
20:54
Speaker 1: Right did did defense attorneys even bring that out for
20:56
Speaker 1: the jury?
20:57
Speaker 2: They do mention it kind of vaguely, but they do
21:00
Speaker 2: not point out well enough for the jury that that
21:03
Speaker 2: was the case. They should have done a better ballistic investigation.
21:07
Speaker 2: They didn't, and I think they should have better highlighted
21:10
Speaker 2: the position Clint was in and Douglas was in and
21:13
Speaker 2: David Page was in to show that Clint could not
21:16
Speaker 2: have been the shooter in the first case. All the
21:19
Speaker 2: jury heres is David Page saying that Clint shot the victim.
21:23
Speaker 2: Darnell confirms it, Mark Ray confirms it.
21:26
Speaker 1: Okay, So everything that they said about the initial gunshots
21:29
Speaker 1: that killed Doyle Douglas are actually confirmed to be lies
21:33
Speaker 1: by the ballistics evidence, which in turn offers an explanation
21:36
Speaker 1: as to why the rest of the narrative is so
21:38
Speaker 1: damn weak.
21:40
Speaker 2: Mark Ray, Darnelle McCoy, and David Page all said that
21:44
Speaker 2: Clint was forcing them to do all these things. But
21:47
Speaker 2: at the same time, Darnelle McCoy says all of them
21:50
Speaker 2: had guns. Then, how is Clint able to force all
21:54
Speaker 2: three of them by himself but all three of them
21:57
Speaker 2: have guns? How does that work? It makes no sense.
22:01
Speaker 1: Then, according to this wild narrative, Page volunteered to go
22:06
Speaker 1: and Young took Ray and McCoy. Home Page testified that
22:09
Speaker 1: Young told the group quote, if y'all squeal by the
22:13
Speaker 1: time I hear about it, your friend's going to be
22:15
Speaker 1: dead end quote, then we're supposed to go along with
22:18
Speaker 1: the narrative again, that Young called his girlfriend Amber Lynch,
22:22
Speaker 1: presumably to make arrangements to meet her and learn that
22:25
Speaker 1: her father, Bart Lynch, was with her. Bart and Douglas
22:29
Speaker 1: knew each other, and Young thought Bart would recognize the car,
22:32
Speaker 1: so he looked for another to steal in Weatherford, but
22:35
Speaker 1: was unsuccessful. And how badly does somebody have to want
22:39
Speaker 1: to see their girlfriend that they're willing to kill two people,
22:43
Speaker 1: kidnapped three other guys, all of them are armed. I mean,
22:46
Speaker 1: if the motive was to see his girlfriend, my guess
22:49
Speaker 1: is he could have found an easier way to get there.
22:51
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And the whole motive doesn't even make sense because
22:55
Speaker 2: you're thinking to yourself, Oh, now I'm driving in a
22:58
Speaker 2: dead person's car. Let's kill somebody else so I can
23:01
Speaker 2: get rid of this car. You could go and kill
23:04
Speaker 2: people for days on end. If that's the theory.
23:08
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say.
23:11
Speaker 2: That's a crazy thing. The jury bought the state's theory,
23:15
Speaker 2: and the weird thing is. I don't think the state
23:17
Speaker 2: believed it either, because David Page at Clinton's trial said
23:21
Speaker 2: that he was kidnapped by Clinton and did nothing wrong
23:25
Speaker 2: and that he was a victim in this case. And
23:27
Speaker 2: then right after the day trial they all got plea deals.
23:30
Speaker 2: Mark Ray got a plea deal for kidnapping with a
23:33
Speaker 2: fifteen year sentence, and David Page got a plea deal
23:37
Speaker 2: for thirty years on an aggravated kidnapping charge.
23:41
Speaker 1: Yeah. Normally kidnapping victims who witness murders don't get criminally prosecuted. Right,
23:46
Speaker 1: It's pretty clear that the state new Ray and Page
23:49
Speaker 1: were guilty, and we're just making good on a promise
23:51
Speaker 1: of leniency in exchange for their testimony. And Clinton, what
23:55
Speaker 1: was it like for you sitting there listening to all
23:58
Speaker 1: these lies?
24:00
Speaker 3: I frustrating because they're saying that I killed two people
24:03
Speaker 3: for their vehicles to go see a girl, and they're
24:06
Speaker 3: seeing people laugh and laha they see to lie. I'm
24:12
Speaker 3: looking at my attorney saying, man, he's lyne. He can't
24:15
Speaker 3: do that. He said, well, he just done it. Can
24:17
Speaker 3: you prove his line? I was like, well, no, I
24:19
Speaker 3: guess not right. They said, Okay, thought about.
24:22
Speaker 2: What you can prove the state did not preserve a
24:24
Speaker 2: lot of evidence. They destroyed evidence, they withheld evidence, So
24:30
Speaker 2: that makes it difficult but not undoable. And I would
24:33
Speaker 2: have gone out to the crime scenes and investigated them myself, right, like.
24:38
Speaker 1: Think loves that David Page wore when he killed Samuel Petrick.
24:41
Speaker 2: There were many many things that they could have done
24:43
Speaker 2: and didn't show. And there were witnesses at the time
24:47
Speaker 2: of the trial, actually at the Mintlan County Jail who
24:51
Speaker 2: hurt Paige confess to them. He confessed that he was
24:55
Speaker 2: the one who committed the murders, not Clinton. Those witnesses
24:59
Speaker 2: were initially willing to testify, but then got a visit
25:03
Speaker 2: from the DA's investigator and then decide it not to.
25:07
Speaker 2: Like I said, it's heart when you're fighting a state
25:09
Speaker 2: like that, especially with what we discovered later on that
25:12
Speaker 2: they were so actively working towards getting him sentenced to
25:16
Speaker 2: death and executed.
25:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately, he was a convenience scapegoat for everybody. The
25:22
Speaker 1: prosecutors got to solve the case, right, the cops can
25:25
Speaker 1: move on, get it off their desk, and the three
25:28
Speaker 1: guys could get lesser charges for themselves. So everybody's a
25:32
Speaker 1: winner in this situation, if you could have a winner
25:34
Speaker 1: in such a situation except Clinton and so Clinton, without
25:38
Speaker 1: that evidence and with so many lies against you, you
25:40
Speaker 1: were convicted and sentenced to death.
25:42
Speaker 3: When they convicted me, I was devastated. Go I knew
25:45
Speaker 3: my choice was reading the life or death. That real
25:48
Speaker 3: people were telling me. All that I will give you
25:49
Speaker 3: death is you're young, you're good looking, you're intelligent, people
25:53
Speaker 3: love you. You're white, and I don't kill you. I
25:57
Speaker 3: pointed towards the jury. One day I told my Lord,
25:59
Speaker 3: I said, many those white folks think I done, then
26:02
Speaker 3: they're gonna kill me. And they looked at me crazy,
26:04
Speaker 3: and they said, why do you say that you're white too?
26:07
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, when I'm out there white. About two
26:25
Speaker 3: or three o'clock in the morning, I woke up with
26:28
Speaker 3: hearing the sound of the chains, the leg shackles to belly,
26:31
Speaker 3: chain and handcuffed, hearing the chains rattle and drag on
26:34
Speaker 3: the concrete. The gards knocked on the door, and there
26:37
Speaker 3: was a solemn event for everybody. You could tell like
26:39
Speaker 3: they all appreciated the severity of the situation. Right, they're
26:42
Speaker 3: shackling somebody else and center the death row and so
26:45
Speaker 3: I get in a van and as we're getting closer,
26:47
Speaker 3: we'll get to Huntsville, and he starts seeing all these prisons.
26:50
Speaker 3: And that's why I started feeling the way of the situations. Okay,
26:52
Speaker 3: I'm getting here. You know, what's this next done in
26:54
Speaker 3: my life? Going to be? Like we get to where
26:56
Speaker 3: they process everybody, and I get out the van and
26:58
Speaker 3: they know I'm going to death row. I'm walking up
27:00
Speaker 3: the steps. The guard says, hurry up, get him in here.
27:04
Speaker 3: If I had to kill him early, man, I needed that.
27:07
Speaker 3: When I heard that guard kill me, that that shit
27:09
Speaker 3: the tone for me right there. I realized that he
27:12
Speaker 3: was just playing around, but to me, it wasn't playing
27:15
Speaker 3: So that just set my mindset for my time on them.
27:17
Speaker 3: So as I hit the unit I was in the
27:19
Speaker 3: law library, I was fighting. I lived at them as
27:22
Speaker 3: my enemy. I never was delusion that they was my
27:24
Speaker 3: friend or that they cared about me or anything like that.
27:27
Speaker 3: You know, I always thought about what that guard said
27:29
Speaker 3: when I was walking up those steps, and so it
27:31
Speaker 3: just became a bigger motivator for me.
27:34
Speaker 1: So you're working your case in the law library to
27:36
Speaker 1: save your own life, and eventually Merrill joined your fight
27:41
Speaker 1: about a decade later. So, Meryl, how in the world
27:44
Speaker 1: did you find out about Clinton Young who was sentenced
27:47
Speaker 1: to death. It's almost half a world away in Texas,
27:50
Speaker 1: while you're over in the Netherlands, presumably leading a relatively
27:55
Speaker 1: normal life whatever that is, probably more or less the
27:58
Speaker 1: life of your parents envision for you, which I'm guessing
28:01
Speaker 1: is probably not this one.
28:04
Speaker 2: They definitely did not imagine I would move to Texas.
28:07
Speaker 2: In twenty fourteen, I was in law school in Rotterdam
28:11
Speaker 2: in the Netherlands, and I just got back from an
28:14
Speaker 2: internship in New York City where I interned for a
28:17
Speaker 2: defense attorney who was working on white colored crimes and
28:21
Speaker 2: representing people who took a lot of money from Wall Street,
28:25
Speaker 2: for example. And I was very interested in the American
28:29
Speaker 2: and criminal justice system. And when I got back in
28:31
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, I did some research and I watched documentaries
28:35
Speaker 2: and I read online about anything I could get my
28:38
Speaker 2: hands on. And I saw documentary about the death penalty
28:43
Speaker 2: in Texas, and clincy Yng was interviewed about what it
28:48
Speaker 2: was like being on death row, and he said, I
28:51
Speaker 2: did not get a fair trial. I'm innocent. I didn't
28:53
Speaker 2: kill these two people. And at the time I did
28:57
Speaker 2: not know whether or not that was true, but I
29:00
Speaker 2: saw the difference by looking at him, and he was
29:03
Speaker 2: so young, and he was sentenced to death at nineteen,
29:06
Speaker 2: and I started thinking about the clients that I helped
29:10
Speaker 2: in New York City who were very rich, would not
29:13
Speaker 2: go to prison, had a lot of money to hire
29:16
Speaker 2: the best attorneys, and Clint didn't have that, and he
29:19
Speaker 2: was on death row for a crime he said he
29:21
Speaker 2: didn't commit. And that contrast that really got to me.
29:26
Speaker 2: I kept thinking about it and decided to write him
29:30
Speaker 2: a letter, and yeah, he wrote me back, and that's
29:32
Speaker 2: how that story started.
29:34
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the post conviction litigation, and the
29:37
Speaker 1: story doesn't get any less crazy here.
29:40
Speaker 2: So in twenty seventeen, Clint has been through the entire
29:44
Speaker 2: appeals process and he's lost everything, and they set his
29:48
Speaker 2: execution date for October twenty six, twenty seventeen, and that's
29:53
Speaker 2: when Clint's defense lawyers requested to do new testing on
29:59
Speaker 2: the gloves at the second crime scene. The clubs were
30:03
Speaker 2: previously tested for DNA, and they found David Page's DNA
30:07
Speaker 2: on the inside and Clinton's DNA was excluded. So we
30:11
Speaker 2: know that David Page wore those gloves. Those clubs were
30:14
Speaker 2: found in very close proximity to the victim, and they
30:19
Speaker 2: tested it for gunshot residue. An expert wrote a report
30:23
Speaker 2: on it and he said, I found gunshot residue. And
30:27
Speaker 2: given the location and the amount of the gunshot residue
30:31
Speaker 2: that I found on these gloves, I really only have
30:34
Speaker 2: one conclusion, and that is that the person who was
30:37
Speaker 2: wearing the gloves was at the same time also firing
30:40
Speaker 2: a gun. And the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals on
30:44
Speaker 2: October eighteen stayed his execution because of possible false testimony
30:49
Speaker 2: given by David Page during Clinton's trial.
30:53
Speaker 1: Wow, so just a week before the execution. And there's
30:57
Speaker 1: some other information you got at that time as well.
31:00
Speaker 2: Right, Exactly a couple of days after, the Midland County
31:03
Speaker 2: DA Laura Nodolph sends an email to Clinton attorneys saying, oh,
31:09
Speaker 2: by the way, I did an interview with David Page
31:12
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago. It's not material to the
31:14
Speaker 2: conviction at all, but here's a copy. Good luck with it.
31:17
Speaker 2: Clint attorneys listened to the tape and discover that David
31:21
Speaker 2: Page gives a confession in that interview and he says
31:26
Speaker 2: I was the one who kidnapped the second victim. So
31:30
Speaker 2: the Midland County DA's office withheld that tape to only
31:34
Speaker 2: give it to the defense team until after his execution
31:37
Speaker 2: got stayed. Would they have turned it over if Clinton's
31:40
Speaker 2: execution was not stayed? No, I don't think so. They
31:44
Speaker 2: wanted to bury that even though that interview alone would
31:47
Speaker 2: have given Clinton a stay of execution.
31:49
Speaker 1: They would have buried that, and they would have buried
31:50
Speaker 1: him exactly.
31:52
Speaker 2: The Texas scored a criminal Appeals gave Clinton an evident
31:55
Speaker 2: charry hearing finally in twenty nineteen on the possible false
31:59
Speaker 2: test money of David Page, and included in that hearing
32:04
Speaker 2: was going to be the withholding of the favorable interview
32:08
Speaker 2: and confession by David Page. Two days before that evidentiary
32:13
Speaker 2: hearing was going to take place, Laura Nodolph sends a
32:16
Speaker 2: message to Clint's defense human says, Oh, we just found
32:21
Speaker 2: some documents. We are probably going to end up as
32:24
Speaker 2: witnesses ourselves in this case now, so it's better for
32:28
Speaker 2: we recues. The evidence shows that Ralph Petty, who was
32:33
Speaker 2: an assistant district attorney for the Midland County DA's office
32:37
Speaker 2: for seventeen years. While he was prosecuting, Clinton had also
32:41
Speaker 2: worked as a paid law clerk for the judges who
32:45
Speaker 2: were presiding over Clinton's case, and in that capacity he
32:49
Speaker 2: drafted rulings for the judges on Clint's case, He decided
32:53
Speaker 2: on motions, he was interviewing witnesses. The list goes on
32:56
Speaker 2: and on. It's absolutely insane. So that was discuss hovered
33:00
Speaker 2: only two days before that hearing was going to take place.
33:04
Speaker 2: Very conveniently, i must say, because now no one was
33:08
Speaker 2: going to look at the withholding of that tape of
33:11
Speaker 2: David Page. Because the evidentiary hearing got postponed. Obviously, this
33:15
Speaker 2: was huge news, and clint attorneys filed a new red application,
33:20
Speaker 2: asked associate to reopen the case based on prosecutorial misconduct,
33:24
Speaker 2: and they did, and they held a short evidentiary hearing
33:29
Speaker 2: in January this year and in April there were closing arguments.
33:34
Speaker 2: And normally when you have closing arguments after an evident
33:37
Speaker 2: chary hearing, a trial judge is going to take a
33:40
Speaker 2: few weeks to decide on what recommendation he's going to
33:43
Speaker 2: give to the CCAP and Clint' attorneys obviously said we
33:47
Speaker 2: need a new trial. Judge, this is unheard of, this
33:49
Speaker 2: is outrageous prosecutural misconduct. Clinton never had a fair trial.
33:54
Speaker 2: The state, interestingly enough, first said well, we can kind
33:58
Speaker 2: of see that this is not great. However, later on
34:01
Speaker 2: they said, you know what, Judge, we actually think that
34:03
Speaker 2: Ralph Petty built an ethical wall between his work for
34:08
Speaker 2: Dede's office and his work for the judge. So really
34:11
Speaker 2: we don't see anything wrong with this. We should just
34:13
Speaker 2: keep the conviction intact.
34:15
Speaker 1: The idea that he was able to build an ethical
34:17
Speaker 1: wall in between his work as a prosecutor and his
34:21
Speaker 1: work basically judging his own work. It's like it's literally
34:25
Speaker 1: the wolf guarding the henhouse.
34:27
Speaker 2: The beautiful thing is the trial judge. He didn't believe
34:30
Speaker 2: it either. He didn't buy any of that. During the
34:32
Speaker 2: closing arguments, everyone sat what they wanted to say, and
34:36
Speaker 2: I was about to close it off because it was
34:38
Speaker 2: on zoom, and the judge, instead of waiting a couple weeks,
34:43
Speaker 2: immediately said at the end, mister Young, I'm going to
34:46
Speaker 2: recommend that you get a new trial. And everyone was
34:49
Speaker 2: just shocked. I was shocked. I was like, did he
34:53
Speaker 2: just really say that, but he did, so that was great,
34:56
Speaker 2: and that recommendation got sent to the Texas Court of
34:59
Speaker 2: Criminal Appeals and in September they completely vacated Clinton's conviction
35:04
Speaker 2: and death sentence, and in October he was taken off
35:08
Speaker 2: of death row and sent back to the Midland County Jail,
35:10
Speaker 2: where he is now awaiting his new trial.
35:13
Speaker 1: So, Clinton, in September of twenty twenty one, when you
35:15
Speaker 1: heard this, after all this time on death row and
35:18
Speaker 1: coming within a week of being executed, your conviction was
35:21
Speaker 1: being overturned. What was that moment like for you?
35:24
Speaker 3: Okay, I was sitting there talking to a friend of
35:26
Speaker 3: mine and I have been listening to the local news,
35:29
Speaker 3: but I didn't hear it. All of a sudden, Ricky
35:31
Speaker 3: Cummings are screaming at me, and he's screaming so loud
35:34
Speaker 3: I can't make it out, and I goes, what's up, man,
35:37
Speaker 3: He's got a convision over time. It is overtime, you cocas,
35:41
Speaker 3: And I was like, he already. So I was a
35:43
Speaker 3: lady that I was excited. Man, it was a great killing.
35:47
Speaker 1: So Clinton has been speaking with us from inside Midland
35:50
Speaker 1: County Jail for most of this episode, but In January
35:53
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty two, he was released on bond while
35:56
Speaker 1: he waits a new trial. So Clinton, what can I say, buddy? Well,
36:00
Speaker 1: come home. How are you feeling.
36:01
Speaker 3: I'm feeling good.
36:02
Speaker 1: You know. You know.
36:03
Speaker 4: I'm the first person in Texas history to get out
36:06
Speaker 4: on bond after getting a new trial off death row
36:09
Speaker 4: and still being under indictment for capital murder. It's never
36:11
Speaker 4: happened before. I certainly wish I could get out and
36:13
Speaker 4: do more, but being on house arrest, I'm limited to
36:17
Speaker 4: what I can do. So I must admit that this
36:19
Speaker 4: is the best jail cell I ever been in.
36:22
Speaker 1: Everyone here at the Wrongful Fiction Podcast and so many
36:26
Speaker 1: other people are just ecstatic about this news. So what
36:29
Speaker 1: does this all mean. What's the status of your case?
36:32
Speaker 4: Well, right now, it's in the review phase because the
36:36
Speaker 4: prosecutors they're new to everything and so they really don't
36:39
Speaker 4: know the ins and outs of the entire case. And
36:42
Speaker 4: sometimes a fresh setized is a good thing. There's also
36:45
Speaker 4: elections coming up, primaries and stuff like that to get
36:47
Speaker 4: in fact who's working on the case, and so everything's
36:50
Speaker 4: just really in limbo right now. This case is not
36:52
Speaker 4: the same case as it was in two thousand and
36:55
Speaker 4: three when I went to trial. It's not going to
36:57
Speaker 4: be fought the same way. The evidence it was given
36:59
Speaker 4: to the has been attacked so efficiently, and new evidence
37:04
Speaker 4: has been developed, such as forensic testing, co defendants confessing
37:08
Speaker 4: in part or bragging about getting away with murder. There's
37:11
Speaker 4: so much more this known.
37:13
Speaker 1: I think reasonable minds could agree that at this point
37:16
Speaker 1: the state should really just drop the charges. It's abundantly
37:20
Speaker 1: clear at this point that Clinton didn't kill anybody.
37:23
Speaker 2: We still want to make sure that we do everything
37:26
Speaker 2: we can to make sure that this time he receives
37:29
Speaker 2: a fair trial. So the Clinton Young Foundation, for which
37:33
Speaker 2: I am the legal director, has made sure that Clinton
37:37
Speaker 2: now has an amazing defense team. Dick de Garin, who
37:42
Speaker 2: has decades of trial experience in Texas, and Mark White,
37:47
Speaker 2: fantastic lawyer as well, are now representing him during his
37:51
Speaker 2: new trial. So the Clinton Young Foundation will keep raising awareness.
37:56
Speaker 2: We have to keep raising money to make sure that
37:59
Speaker 2: we can pay the legal fees because a good defense
38:03
Speaker 2: team onfortunate line. This country is not free.
38:05
Speaker 1: And I have to say Dick de Garren is a
38:07
Speaker 1: legend in courtrooms in Texas and even around the country
38:11
Speaker 1: for people who do want to help, how do they donate?
38:15
Speaker 1: How do they sign up? How do they do whatever
38:17
Speaker 1: they need to do in order to help.
38:19
Speaker 2: Clinton, Well, they should go to Linsayongfoundation dot com and
38:23
Speaker 2: we have a Facebook page, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, you name it,
38:28
Speaker 2: we got it.
38:28
Speaker 1: We're going to put links to all of that into bios.
38:30
Speaker 1: So please sign the petition, donate if you can, and
38:35
Speaker 1: even if you can't, spread the word okay, because together
38:38
Speaker 1: we can write this horrible wrong. And Now at Romful Conviction,
38:42
Speaker 1: as everybody knows do, we have my favorite part of
38:44
Speaker 1: the show, which is called closing Arguments. And Merril, first
38:49
Speaker 1: of all, thank you for just being a beacon of
38:51
Speaker 1: light and a force for good and for taking time
38:55
Speaker 1: to come and be here with us on Ramful Conviction today.
38:58
Speaker 1: And you know, I've really been looking forward to this,
39:00
Speaker 1: And Clinton, thank you for being here and for sharing
39:05
Speaker 1: your important story. We're hoping to see you fully enjoying
39:09
Speaker 1: true freedom really soon. So now Closing Arguments works like
39:13
Speaker 1: this same more or less every time, I'm going to
39:16
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on, kick up
39:19
Speaker 1: the volume, and kick back in my chair and let
39:22
Speaker 1: you talk about whatever else is on your mind that
39:25
Speaker 1: we may not have already covered already. So let's Merril,
39:27
Speaker 1: let's go with you first. Then you can just hand
39:29
Speaker 1: the mic off to Clinton and let him take us
39:32
Speaker 1: off into the sunset.
39:34
Speaker 2: Well, Jason, thank you so much for paying attention and
39:38
Speaker 2: using your resources to highlight these wrongful convictions. Because it's
39:43
Speaker 2: not just defense lawyers who do the work. It's advocates
39:46
Speaker 2: like you who can also truly make a difference by
39:50
Speaker 2: creating awareness and spreading this news all over the country.
39:54
Speaker 2: So that is just such a huge, huge contribution and
39:58
Speaker 2: very important work. Heart this work can be and how
40:02
Speaker 2: rare it is that we win cases. But once we do,
40:06
Speaker 2: I really hope Clinton's case can be an example to
40:10
Speaker 2: other people to never give up hope, to never never
40:15
Speaker 2: give up the fight and.
40:17
Speaker 1: Now Clinton over the year.
40:19
Speaker 3: So I made bad choices in my life. They put
40:21
Speaker 3: me on past I shouldn't have been on. I have
40:24
Speaker 3: suffered an injustice. But one of the saddest things about
40:27
Speaker 3: this case is the concept of closure for the victim's family.
40:31
Speaker 3: The District Attorney's office convinced them that I killed their
40:34
Speaker 3: loved ones and that I was going to be executed.
40:36
Speaker 3: So not only have I gone through this process. The
40:39
Speaker 3: victim's family has gone through this process, and it's been
40:41
Speaker 3: traumatizing to them because they had this belief that there
40:44
Speaker 3: would be closure, that there would be this concept of justice.
40:47
Speaker 3: It's a false concept me personally, I was born into
40:51
Speaker 3: a life of chaos in many ways. I really didn't
40:54
Speaker 3: have a fair chance in life. And I say that
40:56
Speaker 3: what I want in life is that trinity of humanity.
41:00
Speaker 3: That's what I call it, to be loved, safe and free.
41:04
Speaker 3: And so people asking what I want, you know, I
41:07
Speaker 3: wanted to be able to get out and have that basic
41:09
Speaker 3: trinity of humanity, you know, to be loved, safe and free,
41:12
Speaker 3: and to build a live life, to do something productive
41:14
Speaker 3: in life. And one of the things that Death Rows
41:16
Speaker 3: did was it actually gave me life.
41:19
Speaker 1: Man.
41:19
Speaker 3: I met a lot of great people down there that
41:21
Speaker 3: wrote me, a lot of people done things to help me.
41:23
Speaker 3: The documentary that was made about my case really helped
41:26
Speaker 3: highlight my story and the injustice that I went through,
41:30
Speaker 3: and it brought a lot of good people into my life.
41:32
Speaker 3: It wasn't telling me I was bad or her things.
41:35
Speaker 3: They was telling me I was good and then I
41:36
Speaker 3: could do great things. And I had this potential and
41:39
Speaker 3: it helped installed confidence in me that I had never
41:42
Speaker 3: had in my childhood. And so it made me focus
41:45
Speaker 3: more about my legacy and what I wanted to do
41:47
Speaker 3: in this world. And I don't want to just be
41:50
Speaker 3: a good person. I want to be able to do
41:53
Speaker 3: great things. I want to shape the world around me.
41:56
Speaker 3: I have a passion for helping other people. I have
41:58
Speaker 3: a passion for justice. A lot of people get executed.
42:01
Speaker 3: It should never have been executed. I've seen how broken
42:04
Speaker 3: our system is, how it favors the rich, are the
42:06
Speaker 3: politically connected. And so I wanted to have a family,
42:10
Speaker 3: be free, live life, and do great things in this world.
42:14
Speaker 3: If I get out today, I mean I have the
42:16
Speaker 3: life maybe that I never would have had before because
42:17
Speaker 3: of the people I've met. I mean, as crazy as
42:20
Speaker 3: it seems, people might not understand it, but worn to
42:22
Speaker 3: death Row gave me life and they made me a
42:25
Speaker 3: better person. It made me evaluate my humanity. It made
42:28
Speaker 3: me think about the people in my life that I've
42:30
Speaker 3: heard and I said. It made me want to do better,
42:33
Speaker 3: to be better and to accomplish a great things. I've
42:36
Speaker 3: got my division overturned, and I want a step closer.
42:39
Speaker 3: So I'm will tell how everything works out, and I
42:41
Speaker 3: want to thank Jason for this opportunity. Thank you.
42:45
Speaker 4: In addition to all that I've previously stated, now that
42:48
Speaker 4: I am out on Bond, I look forward to living
42:52
Speaker 4: up to my goals, being the man that I know
42:54
Speaker 4: I can be, and proven to society that I can
42:58
Speaker 4: be a productive member of society, and also showing the
43:01
Speaker 4: world that you don't have to throw away human beings,
43:04
Speaker 4: that we can change did twenty years later, we're not
43:07
Speaker 4: the same person. I look forward to action, not talk.
43:17
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
43:20
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,
43:24
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music
43:27
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated
43:30
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram
43:34
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and
43:38
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava
43:41
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms. You can also follow
43:45
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam.
43:48
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts
43:51
Speaker 1: and association with signal Company number one