Latest / The Breakfast Club / INTERVIEW: Kerry Washington & Ben Affleck Talk ‘Animals,’ Chemistry Bonding For Character Roles, Diverse Storytelling, Consolidation In Hollywood + More

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INTERVIEW: Kerry Washington & Ben Affleck Talk ‘Animals,’ Chemistry Bonding For Character Roles, Diverse Storytelling, Consolidation In Hollywood + More · The Breakfast Club

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hold up. Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: The Breakfast Club. Y'all finished or y'all done? Yep, it's
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: the world's most dangerous morning show, The Breakfast Club. DJ Envy, Jess.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Hilarious, Charlamagne Tha God. Envy is not here, but Lauren
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: LaRosa is. And we got some special guests in the
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: building from the new Project Animals.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Carrie Washington and Ben Affleck are here. Good morning.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: Good morning. What's going on? How y'all feeling, man?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: How's y'all energy this morning?
• 0:25
  Speaker 4: Good.
• 0:26
  Speaker 5: It's great.
• 0:26
  Speaker 4: I'm excited to be here. I haven't been here before. No,
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: you've never been.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: That is true.
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: How did I get this invite?
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: I'm very excited.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Because of Carrie.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: Good plus one.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Good plus one. Carrie said she had a plus one.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: We didn't even look to see who it was. Carrie
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: said she got a plus one. He's like, all right, cool. Oh,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: it's Ben Affleck. All right, great.
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: Bonus.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Bonus.
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: If Nnamdi can hold the purse, I can hold the purse.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: I saw you, Ben, say that y'all chemistry, you and
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Carrie's chemistry, it's the best experience you've ever had with
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: another actor?
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: I'm so glad.
• 0:57
  Speaker 5: That that's on record. At least for now.
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: Until the next one, then I'll be saying that about
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: the next one. She's amazing. We hate each other. No,
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: I think because we were trying to really dig into
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: what happens in a marriage. Really underneath a marriage, kind of.
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: Not just what you put out there, how you want
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: people to see it, but what happens when you're together
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: and you're close and then things can start to fall
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: apart and how much you're going to really show that
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: other person, you know, who you really are. And there's
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: a lot of risk to that and maybe a lot
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: of reward. And I thought like be really interesting to,
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: to explore that. But I needed somebody who was really
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: willing to, uh, you know, in preparation, like talk about
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: it in a real way and get really serious about not,
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: not like, Oh, this is my marriage or, you know,
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: we're going to use these things, but more in a
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: way of.
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  Speaker 6: Life experience and lived experience. And just be honest about like,
• 1:53
  Speaker 6: what are the things you're afraid of? What are the
• 1:54
  Speaker 6: things you, you know, what are the masks you put
• 1:57
  Speaker 6: up in the world? What are the things you're afraid
• 1:59
  Speaker 6: for people to know about you? Just that, like really
• 2:01
  Speaker 6: digging in so that we could bring a life to
• 2:03
  Speaker 6: these characters that felt real. I mean, I would say
• 2:05
  Speaker 6: working with Ben as a director is so, because he's
• 2:09
  Speaker 6: so committed to figuring out what truth is supposed to
• 2:12
  Speaker 6: look like on screen.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: I need more praise for Carrie, Ben. What did she
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: give you creatively that you hadn't experienced before? Because you've
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: worked with a lot of actors and actresses.
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: Well, for one thing, Carrie really wrote the movie with me.
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: We had to sit down and go, okay, if we're
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: going to have this marriage and we know that it
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: gets to a point of real crisis where it's like, okay,
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: are we going to be together or forget it? And
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: there's that moment to arrive at that's a lot of pain.
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of history. And when you have that conversation,
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: a lot comes out, right? So we needed to get
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: real about how did this start?
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: Where was it early? How did we meet? What did
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: my parents think of you?
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: And Carrie was like, send me our wedding music. I
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: was like, oh shit, I'm feeling judged.
• 2:52
  Speaker 6: Let me tell you, Ben knows a lot more R &
• 2:54
  Speaker 6: B than I expected.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: The wedding songs, I was like, whoa!
• 2:58
  Speaker 7: What's happening with these wedding songs?
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: Carrie was like, who's Luther Vandross? No, shut up! Get
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: out of here!
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  Speaker 3: What was the song he put on and you was like,
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: hold on. We had a few options.
• 3:08
  Speaker 5: We had a few options, but what surprised me?
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  Speaker 4: She reconsidered me a little bit.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: What was the one that surprised you the most?
• 3:14
  Speaker 5: I think some Freddie Jackson on there surprised me.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Rest in peace, Freddie.
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: And also a lot of Mary J on there.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This shit is not a secret.
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  Speaker 3: When he sat down, he said something about Al Green, too.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love it. It was a really, you know,
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  Speaker 4: you have to really get serious and share kind of like,
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: and that part of me was like, okay, so what's
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: your experience in interracial relationships? Like what happens? Cause to me,
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: I wanted when it, when it comes to a head,
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: like all your, for my character, all his like insecurities
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  Speaker 4: come out, you know, all the things he's afraid of.
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  Speaker 4: Like one of them is like, you don't really want
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  Speaker 4: to be with me. You really want to be the
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  Speaker 4: black guy. You probably don't even love me. You know
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: what I mean? Maybe you're with me to, to be
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: on the political trail.
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  Speaker 5: Really nice house.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: We have a nice house or all these things that,
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  Speaker 4: I don't care what kind of relationship you're in. You
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  Speaker 4: have these little things that might.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Eat at you in the corners.
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: But they had to be real and they had to
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: be specific. And we had to both know what they
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: were so that when it came up, how we played
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: it was kind of... And I didn't want to have like...
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: I feel like there's movies that have certain rules about like, well,
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: you're playing this person. You can't say this. And I'm like,
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: forget that. If the audience is going to see this,
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: it's going to feel really real to people. A, it
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: can't just be my voice, which is not going to
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: feel real. It's like trying to play chess with yourself, right?
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  Speaker 4: Like you still know what the other pieces, you know,
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: people are thinking, whereas, you know, not just Carrie, but
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: like Adriana and Luis, like they wrote all the bigger stuff.
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: Stephen Yoon and the three of us wrote that scene.
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: Stephen Yoon and Carrie came with their own scene. They
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: were like, we should have this scene together. And I
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: was like, okay, do it. Let's see it. You know,
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: I'm like, well, how come? She's like, well, you know,
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  Speaker 4: he's Korean in LA and I'm black and we have
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: this kind of history and it's complicated. And I was like, okay.
• 5:01
  Speaker 6: That's also a real sign of Ben's self-confidence as a
• 5:04
  Speaker 6: director because not all directors are like, bring all your ideas.
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: Let's collaborate. Let's work together. Let's rewrite stuff.
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  Speaker 6: So that was very rewarding for everybody in the cast
• 5:14
  Speaker 6: to be able to, we rehearse.
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: You never rehearse films.
• 5:16
  Speaker 6: Anymore, but to be in this house, we moved into
• 5:18
  Speaker 6: this house and rehearsed together and built these backstories and
• 5:22
  Speaker 6: figured out what we wanted to say and how we
• 5:23
  Speaker 6: wanted to say it.
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  Speaker 5: It was really rewarding.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Did y'all study any Dr. Umar videos? Oh my God.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: We didn't do that.
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: But we did like, we did just, for me it
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: was like, if we take the gloves off, like for example,
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: this scene with Carrie and Steven, I'm watching them. I'm
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: not even sure. I'm like, oh, it's a little shit.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
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  Speaker 4: Kind of like, what is she going to say now? Like,
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: you know, I was kind of watching it like, you know,
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  Speaker 4: like a prize fight almost. Or like a dance or
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: something where these two, you know, and I'm thinking, she's
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: not going to come back from this. You know what
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: I mean? You also have to have, and this is
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: what I mean about Carrie, like she's such a serious
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  Speaker 4: and legit person. Both like formidable and because I had
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: seen her and been around her and all these circumstances
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  Speaker 4: and watch her hold her own. with all these people,
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: in some cases, like during the strike, and we're talking
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: to people, and Kerry's out there talking to all the CEOs,
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: and then talking to all the unions, and I'm like,
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  Speaker 4: this woman is no joke. And she really holds her own,
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  Speaker 4: and also knows how to talk to people so they
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  Speaker 4: can hear what she's saying without compromising her authenticity. And
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  Speaker 4: what that made me, it gave me this burning curiosity
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: to be like, what's the real Kerry Washington? I feel
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: like there's something in here that I really want to know.
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: And I thought if the audience had that, then you
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: have them leaning forward.
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  Speaker 5: Do you know what's funny, though?
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  Speaker 6: You said that in another interview recently, and I've had
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  Speaker 6: two other black women say to me, I think you
• 6:46
  Speaker 6: said it on the podcast, yeah, and they were saying
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  Speaker 6: when they heard you say it, they identified as successful
• 6:54
  Speaker 6: black women because that's what they were like that's what
• 6:55
  Speaker 6: we have to do we have to constantly be thinking
• 6:58
  Speaker 6: about our audience and again not abandoning our authenticity but
• 7:01
  Speaker 6: like how can I be heard in this moment that's
• 7:04
  Speaker 6: just part of how.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: We exist in the world yeah I really learned that
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: and saw that with you and saw how you had
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: to do a lot more than I had to because
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: I got I could show up and sort of I
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: just you know I felt comfortable and I'm able to
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: have these conversations and I watched you kind of doing
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: this whole like And I realized, oh, I see. They're
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: kind of seeing her in a different way. And she's
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: having to kind of overcome some of this and then
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: show them some of that. And at the same time
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: be like, oh, but I'm not going to hurt you. And,
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: you know, it was a real, it was like.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: Kung Fu type.
• 7:36
  Speaker 8: The interracial dating part of it too. That whole thing
• 7:40
  Speaker 8: as well makes it like where you have to think
• 7:42
  Speaker 8: about the audience and how you are in the relationship
• 7:44
  Speaker 8: and how you show up in the marriage.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: And it's levels to this.
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: What were some of the... Oh, I'm sorry. You better
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: go to a question.
• 7:51
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I was going to say, so you're talking about
• 7:53
  Speaker 8: you guys and Carrie, you playing Abigail. Originally, Jennifer Garner
• 7:56
  Speaker 8: was going to play Abigail, Matt Damon, but Matt Damon
• 7:58
  Speaker 8: went to go do The Odyssey. I saw you say
• 8:00
  Speaker 8: that you decided not to go with Jennifer Garner because
• 8:02
  Speaker 8: you didn't want people bringing your real life history into everything.
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Originally, the story was also very different. It wasn't
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: so much about marriage. It was a little bit of
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: a take on the kind of like, West L.A. kind
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: of vibe and what was going on. And it was
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: a little bit of a different time. And also it
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: was really more about a story about like a kidnapping
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: and the plot. And I thought, oh, it's like a
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: contained thriller. And this call like two weeks before we
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: were going, someone was like, you know, they're doing another
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: kidnapping movie. And I was like, oh, really?
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Who's doing it?
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: Like Spike and Denzel. I was like, ooh.
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: Never mind.
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: All right, fuck it. Who's on the other team?
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Jordan? All right, forget it.
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: Forget it. So I don't want to compete. First of all,
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: these guys are heroes of mine. Malcolm X is one
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: of the movies that really changed my life. When I
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: saw it, I was like, well, a movie can make
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: you want to be a better human being. You know, like,
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: this is something beautiful.
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: Also, it's like four movies in one.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: It's so beautiful. I mean, come on.
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: Spike and Denzel, their career. So it was like, let
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: me forget it. I'm not trying to compete with them.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: Certainly not trying to be second. You know, you don't
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: want to come to the audience like, hey, come see
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: this movie. I know you already saw it last week.
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: I'm like, who's going to do that? So I just
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: set it aside. And And then Matt went off and,
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: you know, got this movie, the Odyssey and that bombed
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: and he regrets it. We had, you know, and I
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: started talking to actually Lucy, who's Matt's wife, who's producing
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: the movie is one of our partners at the company.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: And I was like, I think there's like a more
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: interesting movie here that has that's that actually, yeah, it's
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: got this kidnapping catalyst, but it's going to be judged
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: on its own merits. Cause it's really going to be
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: about like two things. One is there's a, a real
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: immigration story. And that was just starting to become a
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: huge thing in LA and all over the country. And also,
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: I wanna get really real on this whole marriage subject.
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: There's something that's on my mind. like how do you
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: really build an honest authentic marriage and what's what's the real,
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: what's at the heart of it? We have kids together.
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: We're sharing a house and we share finances because that's
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: real too. You know what I mean? And, and then
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: there's this obviously romantic love partnership. How do you evolve
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: that after a certain number of years? And, you know,
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: Jane Garner was like, yeah, I won't be playing your
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: wife in the movie. Garner's wiser than me in many ways.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: This is one of them.
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: And I totally got that. And in, but really what
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: I thought was like, I had, Carrie on my mind
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: because of this interactions that we'd had and because she
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: was so impressive and enigmatic and kind of like, like
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: I said, I was just like, damn, she's a dancer.
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean?
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: That girl.
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: And so then if it's like, I don't even know
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: what the story is going to be, Carrie, with marriage,
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: let's work on it together.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: Let's dive in, yeah.
• 10:51
  Speaker 8: At what point does being so famous though interfere with
• 10:53
  Speaker 8: you guys just being able to show up as characters
• 10:55
  Speaker 8: who act like in a situation like that?
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: I think, I think honestly you have baggage anytime you
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: go into a movie. Like, nowadays we know things about
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: everybody and you can, you won't, you have to be
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: mindful of it and kind of use it to your
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: advantage or else it will hurt you. You know, I've
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: had situations where audiences have been like wholly rejected it
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: because they're like, no, especially when you, the lesson of like,
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: you can't do some movie with someone who you're in
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: a relationship with. Like people just aren't buying it because
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: they can't imagine something different. and also you know but
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: but like for example i did a movie with matt
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: um before this called the rip where i thought actually
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: would help us people know we're friends but the story
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: is about two guys who are like hold on are
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: you betraying me you know and that i thought would
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: be interesting because like people kind of know we know
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: each other what they haven't seen is this that like
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: when you have a close male friendship that gets fractured
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: like that and you're starting to think like Oh, I
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: thought you were like, my brother ain't, are you doing
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: this to me? I thought that's helpful baggage in a way.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Has the audience gotten that stupid? That they don't know
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: that y'all are acting? Right.
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: I think they know it, but you can't help it.
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: I did a movie that was like, this movie called
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: The Last Duel that I really liked, but it was
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: in the middle ages and everyone on the internet was saying,
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: he has iPhone face.
• 12:19
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: What does that mean? I asked my kids and they
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: were like, it means that you have a face that
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: an iPhone has seen. I was like, whoa.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: Never heard of it.
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: So you can't do a period piece.
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we know you're not.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: That's so fascinating.
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: We know you're contemporary. We know you have an iPhone.
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying? I need you.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: That's so weird, though.
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: I know. I was like, oh, shit, I have an iPhone.
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: Hold on, is that good or bad?
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: And now you're insecure because you got a damn iPhone.
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: I'm like, get a new phone. I'm like, get an Android.
• 12:50
  Speaker 9: What were some of the most challenging parts for you, Ben?
• 12:54
  Speaker 9: Because you directed and you wrote and then you also starred.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: And what are some of the challenges? That's a lot
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: of work.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: It is. But like I said, you know, really, I
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: would not have been able to do it without kind
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: of like, The confidence that I've actually gotten to is
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: getting confident enough to know when and how you need help.
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: And to be like, Carrie, I can't do this without you.
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: I need you to help me. Let me be really
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: straight with you. We're not going to come in and
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: you're going to say the lines. I need you to
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: make the movie with me. I'm not sure that she
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: believed me at first, but she believed me when she
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: got there.
• 13:27
  Speaker 5: But I think he also does a really good job.
• 13:31
  Speaker 6: Balancing all of the priorities in his head, because Ben
• 13:35
  Speaker 6: will direct you within the scene. So as I'm acting
• 13:39
  Speaker 6: with him, he'll give me different line readings as an actor,
• 13:42
  Speaker 6: which is what he's wanting in the edit room as
• 13:44
  Speaker 6: a director.
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: It's fantastic.
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: So you're not afraid to ask for help. That's the thing.
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: That's the truth. I love that. You have to know that, like,
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: it is... I feel like it's anything. Like, here you
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: all are sitting around this. Like, every... You know, all
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: three of you here... are going to make this either
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: better or not as interesting to listen to, just straight up, right? So, like,
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: you know, like, my partners, we're going to all rise together. Like,
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: the worst thing that gets in the way is this
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: ego thing of it's got to be me, got to
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: be my ideas, I'm out front, I'm the most important person.
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: It makes other people feel like, all right, well, then,
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: you know. Why would I even give you my advice?
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: Let's see how.
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: Good you are. Okay, you know, then you don't want
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: to help out. Then you're not contributing and your heart's
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: not in it. And I found that in that position,
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: when you tell somebody, I need you, I want you,
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: I believe in you, please help me, people will die
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: for you.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: They will lay out for you.
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: It's selfish in that way.
• 14:40
  Speaker 6: It's so interesting because that reminds me of some of
• 14:43
  Speaker 6: the stuff your character says in the film.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: There's a moment where y'all... I can't say it.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no spoilers.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: Don't give it away.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: I do want to say, Carrie, when somebody.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: who's accomplished as much as Ben, said that you're the
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: best experience he's ever had with another actor. Do you
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: feel pressure to live up to that?
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Or do you already know you hurt?
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: No. He didn't say that before we started working together.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: So I didn't feel the pressure.
• 15:09
  Speaker 5: But I did feel pressure.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: The work is done.
• 15:12
  Speaker 6: I did feel a certain amount of pressure going into
• 15:14
  Speaker 6: it because, I mean, Gone Baby Gone, Argo, The Town,
• 15:20
  Speaker 6: these are some of my favorite films.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: So.
• 15:22
  Speaker 6: and he's the common denominator there. So if, if the
• 15:25
  Speaker 6: scenes don't work, I'm the one who screwed it up.
• 15:27
  Speaker 6: Cause he's, he obviously knows what he's doing. So there
• 15:29
  Speaker 6: was like a real desire to be part of something
• 15:33
  Speaker 6: great with somebody who has a track record of being
• 15:35
  Speaker 6: a great filmmaker.
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: And I appreciate the modesty, but the truth is like,
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: you work with people at a certain level and you know,
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: they're going to come with like, like Carrie comes in
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: and she's like, look, I know what I'm doing. I
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: know how to do this. I've been doing this a
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: lot of years. You're the director. Either you're going to
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: help me or you're going to be a And if
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: you're in her way, what she's going to do is
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: lock up and get defensive and go, I know how
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: to protect myself. I guarantee you, because as an actor,
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: we all have, maybe you more than others for all
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: sorts of reasons, have been in experiences where you're like,
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: you don't understand me. You're trying to fuck up what
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: I'm doing. You're going to get in my way. I'm
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: going to have to just kind of lock down and
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: just do what I know how to do and protect myself.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: You've got to get great actors involved. out of that
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: to where they can trust you. That's the only time
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: they'll go, okay, I'll give you a little bit. I
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: learned that with Morgan Freeman on my first movie. He
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: did one take and I was like, all right, Morgan,
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: can we do another one?
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: He was like, why?
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: Because I'm the director? No, I was like, because I
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: thought you were a little kind of too friendly and avuncular.
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: And he was like, mm-hmm, okay, one more. But really
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: what he was saying to me was really why. I'm
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: doing this on purpose. It's not going to be different
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: again unless you tell me something because I am a master.
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: I understand what I'm doing. I have built and done
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: this specifically so you better have a reason why you
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: want it one more time. Similar to like.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: But you have to remain coachable though, right?
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: He's coachable. When I had a reason, he was like, okay.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: He wanted to know why.
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: Because I was like, it's too friendly. You need to
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: be a little more intimidating. He was like, okay, I
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: get that. And then by the way, tweaked it to
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: the perfect place where it needed to be. And I
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: was like, okay. And right then I felt like, okay,
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: we have a little bit of trust, you know, with,
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: with somebody like, you know, Viola, my last movie, that
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: was just, you know, we did one take and of
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: like a speech that she has like four pages. And
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: I was like, honestly, that's great. We're good. She looked
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: at me like, what are you talking about? I was like,
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: it's great. That is amazing.
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: And that's what's in air?
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: That is it. I said, she said, I want to
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: do it one more time. I was like, as many
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: times as you want. But I have greatness now. And
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: she looked at me like, no one is doing whatever.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: And she did it one more time. And I said,
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: come watch it if you want to look at it.
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: And she was like, okay. Okay, listened, looked at it,
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: stared at it, didn't make any expression. And I was like, oh, shit.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: And she was like, okay, that's it. I said, okay,
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: we can go home.
• 18:12
  Speaker 9: Wow.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: And I was like, you know, one in the afternoon.
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: But I'm not going to. if you're a master and
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: you have that much game, like I'm not going to
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: abuse your time.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: I have no other thing to ask of you. You know,
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: I have no more direction to give you. What you've
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: shown me is so excellent and beautiful. I can't add
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: to it. If you want to tell me, actually, I
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: think I want to try this, this little move or
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: that thing. I'll sit here and watch it all day.
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: But I think part of it's just like, I think
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: when you're a really good actor, like Carrie, she also
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: looking at me going, do you understand what I'm doing?
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: Do you see what's happening, or are you just.
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: But that's from experience, too.
• 18:47
  Speaker 6: I mean, I'm at a point in my career where
• 18:48
  Speaker 6: I don't act in a lot of stuff that I'm
• 18:50
  Speaker 6: not a producer of, because I've also been in situations
• 18:53
  Speaker 6: where I get a cut for a show that I'm doing,
• 18:56
  Speaker 6: and I look at the episode, and I'm like, the director,
• 18:59
  Speaker 6: the editor in particular, in the example I'm thinking of,
• 19:03
  Speaker 6: is not cutting my performance. They're cutting around the choices
• 19:06
  Speaker 6: I'm making. And if I wasn't the producer, I wouldn't
• 19:08
  Speaker 6: have a seat at the table to say, like, we
• 19:10
  Speaker 6: gotta go back in and get this differently. Here's what
• 19:12
  Speaker 6: I'm doing with this character. And that's been a real
• 19:14
  Speaker 6: learning curve for me. So to take on projects where
• 19:19
  Speaker 6: I'm not a producer, it has to be with artists
• 19:21
  Speaker 6: whose eye and instinct I really trust, because I'm not.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: Gonna be in the edit room every day. It still
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: felt like you were the boss, though. Can we finish, Kerry? Yeah,
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: I think so.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's where the business is going, though.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: The business is going to where the creators are the boss. Like,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: you know, you got Ascension Street Productions, and you just
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: launched something, Artist's Equity, you know, yesterday.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Do y'all feel that way, too?
• 19:42
  Speaker 6: They just lost an independent film.
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, film financing. Here's the thing. I i think it's
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: true because i think what happens that artists are recognizing
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: like well actually we're the scarce asset here like there's
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: this whole business that's building all this value value in
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: films and television value in in advertising and promotion and
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: advertising and value in having a certain number of followers
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: like And you can see, oh, there's a real connection
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: between what I do and there's an economic impact of that.
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: And you can kind of demonstrate that now. And so
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: more and more people, I think, or this is kind
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: of what Air was about, which I love, was like going, actually, nope,
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: I'll own this. You know what I mean? I'm the
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: one who's going to go out and do it and
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: build it with my son. In the case of that movie,
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: Dolores Jordan, who was like, no, it's going to be,
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: Michael's going to own the show. And because it's either
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: going to have value or not based on what he
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: does as a player. And yeah, you see that in sports,
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: obviously that tradition then, you know, carried on. And I
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: think you see it more in media now. It took
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: a little bit longer in media because in media, it's
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: not quite so obvious. Oh, well, if you're going to
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: put 30 points up, like we can see that.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: Like the media is.
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: Kind of like, oh, I like him. I don't like her.
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: I don't, you know. Yeah.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Did all the consolidation happening in Hollywood, like, you know,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: you just saw Paramount and Skydance coming together.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Did that make you want to do that?
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Because you saw it as an opportunity for creatives to
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: get more projects made?
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: I think it is an opportunity. Like, I think it's
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: ironic because David Ellison, who owns all that now, started out,
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: you know, as having his own independent company. And I
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: remember talking to him and going, hey, there's all these
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: studios out there. They need people that can do projects
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: and bring that to them. Now he's that guy. So
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: I feel like, okay, you know, this is somebody who
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: at least understands that and where it's like, Yeah, I
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: think it's very difficult if you're running this big company
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: to make a whole bunch of movies and make them
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: well or a bunch of television shows. Like, the more
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: you kind of put that into one building with one
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: group of people, I think the more value there is
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: for people from the outside to show up and say,
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: you know, look, you saw that with, you see it
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: all the time, Sinners, right? Like, those guys showed up
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: and they were like, we have this movie, who's going
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: to buy it? Right? And they were able to get,
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: you know, a really interesting kind of breakthrough deal for
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: that movie where they owned The reversion rights to it,
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: not only did it make money for Warner Brothers, they're thrilled, right?
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: It was a big hit. But also, like, Ryan and Mike,
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: they kept, like, they owned the long-term value of the movie,
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: which you never, ever get. And the only way that you,
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: because that's really where they, studios, like, their value, their library,
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: they own that. That's what you buy when you buy
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: Warner Brothers, right?
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: And so they were kind of like, actually, no, we
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: want to keep that value. And it was real controversial.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: Some people were very upset at the studios because they
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: were like, you're breaking this tradition and artists are going
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: to own everything. And for them to do that, I
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: thought was brilliant. And look, it's not easy. You kind
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: of have to be Ryan and Mike to walk in
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: and be like, we have a great film and everybody
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: wants it, so bid on it. But nonetheless... it speaks
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: to your point of that's the direction that it's really moving.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: If you walked into the new Paramount tomorrow, Carrie, and
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: what would you need to hear from the new leadership
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: to believe they're genuinely investing in diverse storytellers?
• 23:01
  Speaker 5: Genuinely investing in diverse storytellers.
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: Well, I think part of it is not just green
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: lighting projects, but allowing leadership, making sure that the people
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: who are telling the stories or authoring the stories or
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: owning the stories, but then also standing behind this programming
• 23:16
  Speaker 6: In terms of marketing, in terms of giving shows a
• 23:19
  Speaker 6: chance to.
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: Live and breathe.
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: So it's sort of like, how are they engaging with
• 23:24
  Speaker 6: the material from the very beginning, investing in new voices,
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: and then how are they living with the projects all
• 23:31
  Speaker 6: the way through? So it'll take time to see really
• 23:34
  Speaker 6: what their commitment is.
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: But I also think.
• 23:38
  Speaker 6: To invest in diverse storytelling is just to invest in
• 23:41
  Speaker 6: great storytelling like are they are they invested in innovative
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: new voices without regard to having to limit certain voices
• 23:51
  Speaker 6: or encourage certain voices like there are always going to
• 23:54
  Speaker 6: be great stories from every corner of society so I
• 23:57
  Speaker 6: just hope that that's what continues to happen in the
• 23:59
  Speaker 6: business is that we all get to be telling these stories.
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: That's what seems so obvious to me yeah I've never
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: once said to myself like let me go get diverse
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: people for this. Honestly, look at this Korean cat and
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: this black girl and these two Mexican guys. I think
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: that's when it gets whack. Never crossed my mind.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's not about humanity.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I just want something good.
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's kind of token. And then you're like, oh,
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: and then this person can only do that. And then
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: you're like, I'm bored. And it doesn't look like real life.
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: The truth is like, it's good for you because you're
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: getting the best people. And so for me, really, none
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: of that crossed my mind. I just was like, let
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: me get the best people with these experiences and create
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: this story that's combustible and provocative.
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: And then we lean into it.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: And then it's like, and then it's, yeah. So I
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: feel like that idea that they need to be somehow, like,
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: it's just good business. Let's just put it that way.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: It's just good storytelling and good business. Otherwise you're going
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: to tell boring stories that are going to leave out
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: a piece of the audience and leave out a piece
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: of this like experience of life which is not one
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: of Like a monoculture, you know what I mean? It's like,
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: here we all are living this fucking world together.
• 25:08
  Speaker 6: People always say to me, like, oh, why are you
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: so committed to telling political stories or stories that center
• 25:12
  Speaker 6: people of color or center women?
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: It's like, because I'm a lead character.
• 25:15
  Speaker 6: Like, if I'm a lead character on the show, you're
• 25:18
  Speaker 6: going to call that political just because I'm in a
• 25:19
  Speaker 6: black body and a female body.
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: But I'm just telling stories that I can tell.
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: Why are you telling stories about black women?
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: But Animals is a great example, right? Because like you said, you...
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: you thought Jennifer Garner could play this role, but all
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: you needed was a great actress.
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: And it's who she was, right? And actually it did,
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: the only sense that I thought about, I was like,
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: oh shit, she's gonna have this whole other set of
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: experiences and we can really complicate this marriage.
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: Even the kid, our relationship with this child, there's a scene,
• 25:50
  Speaker 6: there's a moment that drives me crazy every time I
• 25:52
  Speaker 6: watch the film. because our young black son walks through
• 25:54
  Speaker 6: the front door and just throws his backpack on the
• 25:56
  Speaker 6: floor for his nanny to pick up.
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: And as a black woman, it drives me crazy.
• 26:00
  Speaker 6: But I knew in the moment as we were shooting it, like,
• 26:02
  Speaker 6: that's what it has to be because we are this
• 26:03
  Speaker 6: West Side privileged family.
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: We had a lot of these things. We're shot in
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: a black house. That wouldn't happen. I was like, this
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: shit happens in my house all the time.
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: And so therefore, that's a part of the tension in
• 26:11
  Speaker 6: the family, right? Of like, whose house is this? Does
• 26:14
  Speaker 6: the kid curse? Because in my house, I wouldn't go,
• 26:17
  Speaker 6: but the kid does curse because... He has a dad
• 26:19
  Speaker 6: who curses.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: The dad's cool with it. And then he's like, oh,
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: don't say that in front of your mom. And she's like,
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: just don't say it. But it does add that little
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: color to like, how do you make it real when
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: you're trying to tell a story about this couple that
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: keeps on having these, you know, like these little things
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: that get in the way, that little separate you. And
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: it's like, oh, we're not on the same page. Oh,
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: she's pissing me about this shit. And I don't understand.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: What's the big thing? He said, bitch, the thing like
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: to me, you know, my son. Your son talks like that?
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: I was like, you know what I mean? Can you imagine?
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: Can you imagine?
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: No, because when he did it in the movie, I
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: was like, I just knew. I'm like.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Could y'all cut it out? We know we see that
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: in white households all the time.
• 26:57
  Speaker 8: Even when my kids come home from some of those
• 27:00
  Speaker 8: other houses, I'm like, don't forget where you are.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: Don't forget where you are.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Don't even look at me like that.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: You break through.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: The wall and go into a black mom. And he
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: just walked out the house and I was like, oh.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: But she was over it. I'm like, she just don't want.
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: You know what's funny?
• 27:14
  Speaker 6: There was a point in the rehearsal process where things
• 27:16
  Speaker 6: were going so well, we were really getting along, and
• 27:19
  Speaker 6: we were having so much fun breaking down the script,
• 27:20
  Speaker 6: where I was like.
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: Boy, we were both like, oh, I wonder if we're
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: gonna be able to really get all.
• 27:24
  Speaker 6: The tension that's necessary for this film, and then we
• 27:26
  Speaker 6: had our first day of rehearsing that fight, and we
• 27:29
  Speaker 6: were like, oh, we're good, we're.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: Gonna be fine, we're good.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: We found some things to be mad about. I think
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: it's interesting to look at, it's a little bit of
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: a spoiler, but infidelity from a point of view.
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: Of course, that's the thing you're going to bring up.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: Yes, let's not forget.
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: It's all kinds of infidelity.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: Somebody has a boyfriend.
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: Financial infidelity.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: But it was like, you know, typically you see that
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: from the male perspective. Like, okay, this dude, here he is,
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: a politician. You know he's got his girlfriend, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: And I thought it was really interesting, the idea that
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: you kind of leave this woman alone. You make her
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: feel alone. You kind of isolate her. She's going to naturally...
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: We look for those kinds of connections in life. You
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: can get into right and wrong and judging. I understand
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: all that. I'm not saying right or wrong, but what
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: I am saying is just the way things tend to happen.
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: And that people want to be loved.
• 28:24
  Speaker 6: They want to be loved and feel loved.
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: And I was like, Carrie, who should we... Who should
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: we cast for that part? She was like, I don't
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: really care. Next thing, she gave me a couple names.
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: All right. Moving along. Great actor. A friend of mine
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: who was in it, who I think is terrific.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's great.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Dope.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: And, like, too good looking, too. After a while, I
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: was like, I shouldn't have cast this fucking guy. But,
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: you know, you want the guy that's with your wife to, like,
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: to feel, not make you feel totally inadequate. You know
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: what I mean?
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: It's a movie, man.
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: No. He puts his life into this. If you think
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: no person identified with that, when I'm watching the scene,
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: I'm like, you need to stop kissing on her.
• 29:04
  Speaker 9: And so, in the movie, without giving it away, because
• 29:06
  Speaker 9: I don't want to give away any spoilers, but what
• 29:08
  Speaker 9: was one scene that challenged you both emotionally while filming it?
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: This is what she does when she wants me to
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: answer the question she just pauses yeah exactly i will
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: say definitely the uh to me the most important scene
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: in the whole movie is really the end which is
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: like the last scene with me and her where it's
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: like because you know we just look if you want
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: somebody to love you you don't want to advertise the
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: things about yourself that you don't think are lovable right
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: when we get together with somebody we're trying to be
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: our best self. We're trying to be, we keep cleaning
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: our shit up a little bit. We wear all these
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: things that we try to do. But over time, you know,
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: kind of who we are sort of comes out and
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: there's a little bit of a compromise. Okay, he's not exactly,
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: but I can, you know, live with this. But what
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: this was really about was like a couple that thinks
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: their marriage is over. really over so they have nothing
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: kind of to lose. And they're not trying to be
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: polite and they're not trying to lie at all. In fact,
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: they're both angry and hurt. And so it's like, who
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: are you? Basically, the subtext is like, who are you really?
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: And who are you? And what do you want really?
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: And what do you want really in a marriage? And
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: what I love about the scene is that in a
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: weird way, even though it's not like all nice or
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: good stuff, they kind of find out like in that moment,
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: you're like, oh, maybe this marriage can work. Because they
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: actually finally said the real truth.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: The truth.
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah, they're finally telling the truth.
• 30:35
  Speaker 6: You can't even figure out if you want to be
• 30:37
  Speaker 6: with somebody if you're not giving them your truth and
• 30:41
  Speaker 6: you're not getting it from them. Because then you're just
• 30:43
  Speaker 6: in a dance with somebody's mask.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:48
  Speaker 8: Why did it take so long for us to get
• 30:49
  Speaker 8: your truth from you?
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Was that purposely done in the movie? What do you mean?
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: The character, Abby? Yeah, like, yes, Abby.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: I've been telling.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Y'all the truth I told y'all the truth I told y'all.
• 31:01
  Speaker 7: The truth personally but Abby her character is like we
• 31:06
  Speaker 7: see it but that moment where y'all are talking about
• 31:10
  Speaker 7: it it's like you are so upset at him about
• 31:14
  Speaker 7: what you think is the reason why your marriage is
• 31:16
  Speaker 7: falling apart but there's no accountability but then finally we
• 31:19
  Speaker 7: get it like was that purposely done that like your
• 31:21
  Speaker 7: accountability came later in the story Yeah.
• 31:25
  Speaker 6: I don't think she believes that there's room for her truth.
• 31:29
  Speaker 6: I think it's all about him and his world. And
• 31:32
  Speaker 6: I think she has bought into this idea that, because
• 31:36
  Speaker 6: I do think that Abby feels like she's going to
• 31:38
  Speaker 6: be honest with him, just not yet, whether that's true
• 31:40
  Speaker 6: or not, who knows. But she thinks like there'll be
• 31:42
  Speaker 6: a time when there will be more room for me.
• 31:45
  Speaker 6: And so she just keeps putting herself on the back
• 31:48
  Speaker 6: burner and going to get her needs in places that
• 31:50
  Speaker 6: are not appropriate. because she's not doing the work to
• 31:53
  Speaker 6: take care of the marriage that she's in.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:56
  Speaker 8: And a lot of y'all talk about throwing away the marriage,
• 31:58
  Speaker 8: but the overall storyline, even with like, you know, people
• 32:01
  Speaker 8: that are not from here and how the world kind
• 32:03
  Speaker 8: of throws them away because of their like, Citizenship status,
• 32:06
  Speaker 8: immigrant people, and just the way that it ends. It's
• 32:11
  Speaker 8: hard to talk about it without giving away.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Don't give it away. Let me say this, was reoccurring.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: One of the things that I think is so powerful
• 32:18
  Speaker 6: about the film is that basically what Ben has done
• 32:20
  Speaker 6: is created a film that teaches us about the conversations
• 32:25
  Speaker 6: we have when somebody isn't in the room. So there's
• 32:29
  Speaker 6: a way that I talk to my husband when the
• 32:30
  Speaker 6: campaign manager's not in the room. There's a way I
• 32:32
  Speaker 6: talk to the campaign manager when my husband's not in
• 32:34
  Speaker 6: the room. They're very different conversations. It's a conversation that
• 32:37
  Speaker 6: the folks who work for us have when we're not
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: in the room, and then the way they perform when
• 32:41
  Speaker 6: we are in the room, how we talk about them
• 32:43
  Speaker 6: when they're not in the room. There's all these dynamics,
• 32:45
  Speaker 6: and the film basically allows you a sneak peek into
• 32:49
  Speaker 6: conversations and worlds that we don't normally have access to
• 32:52
  Speaker 6: because of our differences. We protect each other from the truth,
• 32:55
  Speaker 6: And the film says, no, we're going to let you
• 32:57
  Speaker 6: into the truth of each other's lives.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: I do think that without being whatever, I'm trying to
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: be provocative, but I think that even subconsciously, it's what
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: people do. I've noticed white people that talk differently. This
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: black person comes in the room and there's a change, right?
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: They'll be like, yo, yo, yo.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: What up, man?
• 33:14
  Speaker 9: You know what I'm talking about?
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yo, yo, yo.
• 33:20
  Speaker 5: Even that thing, you know how it drives... It drove
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: white people crazy.
• 33:23
  Speaker 6: It drives black people, some black people, that Barack Obama
• 33:26
  Speaker 6: would talk differently to different people. But we were like,
• 33:28
  Speaker 6: that's what happens. We are taught to be bicultural. That's
• 33:32
  Speaker 6: just what happens.
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: Similarly, what I thought was really interesting that I had
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: not had insight, I didn't really quite reckon with, was
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: like the way that the characters, Luis and Irene, who
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: are playing the kind of gardener and the housekeeper, like
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: the way they were playing their scenes with us, I
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: have to say, honestly, I was like, yeah. This is
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: kind of them. You know what I mean? And then
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: they did their scene that they wrote with each other.
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: And I was like, damn, who are these people? Because
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: they weren't doing that like, oh, yes, senora. I got
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: all this kind of like, I'm so happy to be
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: working for you. I'm just so thrilled.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: By the way, she's married to a Mexican.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: All her in-laws are Mexican. Yo, chill out.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: He's black and Mexican.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Like, he's not full-bred. But that's the point.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: The point is, right, that there are these different people.
• 34:18
  Speaker 6: Versions of ourselves that we bring into rooms, you know,
• 34:21
  Speaker 6: and that you think you're getting the real on somebody,
• 34:25
  Speaker 6: but then when they go home, there's a part of
• 34:27
  Speaker 6: them that you're not.
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: Privy to because you're not home with them.
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: And if you don't take the time to experience that
• 34:33
  Speaker 6: deeper part of them, it's really your loss.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: It's like that scene when.
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: His campaign manager says to me, I have a kid.
• 34:40
  Speaker 6: And my character has never taken the time to see
• 34:42
  Speaker 6: him as a full human being.
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: So I'm shocked.
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: He's usually so resentful, angry.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: So angry that.
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: He's just convincing my husband to want these things.
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: And that thing of feeling like people need to... Why
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: do those Latino characters... you know, behave. I was talking
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: to them. I was like, and they're like, because, you know,
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: we have to keep our jobs. We have to, it's
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: like about these lies we tell ourselves. And Carrie's like,
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: we're a family. She keeps saying we're a family. And
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: then you realize, no, we ain't a family because you're
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: going to do one thing for your family family that
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: you're not going to do for this family. And so
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: that idea in of itself, I thought was really kind
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: of provocative and interesting. And for them to kind of like,
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: you know, have that, like, Like there was a scene
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: where we come home and like they're sitting at the
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: head of the main dinner table. And we were like,
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: I don't, I think it was one of the two
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: of them was like, we've probably never sat in these
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: seats before. And like, cause shit has just come apart.
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: And all of a sudden.
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: They've probably never been at the table. Nevermind at the
• 35:46
  Speaker 5: head of the table.
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: Not like asked to sit down and eat with them.
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: And yet these are people who truly in their hearts,
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: because you don't see those people. You're like, yeah, no,
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: we're family. She eats in her room. You know what
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: I mean?
• 35:57
  Speaker 6: I really like the complexity of that for Abby because
• 35:59
  Speaker 6: I think, you know, I think about myself and how
• 36:01
  Speaker 6: my grandmother came here from Jamaica, worked for families on
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: Park Avenue, was a maid, a housekeeper. And so there's
• 36:08
  Speaker 6: a tension to now how do I relate and see
• 36:11
  Speaker 6: the people who work in my home as knowing that
• 36:13
  Speaker 6: I'm a generation away from being that.
• 36:15
  Speaker 5: And so I think that's also part of what's pulling.
• 36:17
  Speaker 6: On Abby is like, I'm not, I don't totally belong
• 36:19
  Speaker 6: to this Brentwood West Side world. I really, when I
• 36:22
  Speaker 6: say we're like a family, I think I mean it
• 36:24
  Speaker 6: more than most people, but do I?
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: Is the question.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: I know, I thought that was interesting too, is like
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: your character really is like, I'm down with you. I
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: get it. We're in it.
• 36:32
  Speaker 6: Meanwhile, you're the one who speaks Spanish and I'm like, what.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: Did he say?
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: But I also think because I speak Spanish, they're going
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: to love me and they're going to vote for me.
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: And they're like, you, Spanish is terrible. And we, you
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: don't mean we think like, You're on our side just
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: because you learned Spanish is ridiculous.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:46
  Speaker 8: And there was one scene where you addressed the fact
• 36:48
  Speaker 8: that everybody needs to love him. And I thought that
• 36:50
  Speaker 8: that scene was amazing and perfect because in politics, especially
• 36:54
  Speaker 8: white men in politics, it's like they go for, how
• 36:56
  Speaker 8: can I please every single person when realistically- A lot
• 37:00
  Speaker 8: of them try to.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: A lot of them try to. Or, like, they try
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: to please the people that they think need to love them. Yeah, like,
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: they want the votes. But they want the votes.
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: Oh, certain times out the year.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:10
  Speaker 8: But specifically, there are these direct people right here who
• 37:14
  Speaker 8: are screaming and.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: Yelling at you that really, really need something. It's life
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: or death.
• 37:17
  Speaker 8: And you're like, but I have to go and I
• 37:19
  Speaker 8: got to speak. And these people need to love me.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, wow.
• 37:22
  Speaker 8: Like, there is something there in that as well, too,
• 37:25
  Speaker 8: because a lot of us are you get tired of
• 37:27
  Speaker 8: watching the parade of the things.
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, Ben, what you was interested in, right,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: because people love you, but they also.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: Do they?
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: No.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: You see what I'm talking about? Yeah. I was like,
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: I don't need to be married to a black woman.
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: That's actually what you do.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: It was a little close.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: It was a little close.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: They do love you, but they seem entertained whenever you
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: look miserable. Like, you've become a meme just for looking unhappy. Like,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: does that ever bother you, that people find humor in
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: what they assume is you being unhappy?
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: It doesn't bother me.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Maybe it should.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: I'm like, should it bother me?
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: Maybe I should be.
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: Offended by this.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: The cigarette smoking one, classic.
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's honestly because I kind of, I
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: feel like if that was me, I would get it too.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: I'm like, yep. I think the idea is like, okay, well,
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: it doesn't matter who you are. Like, you're going to
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: have days like this, right? Like, everybody feels a little
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: bit like, damn, the world is on my shoulders. Things
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: are not going right. I've certainly had moments in my
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: life where that was also very true. So people know like, yep,
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: this guy's been through plenty of ups and downs. I
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: don't know why you're laughing. See what I'm saying?
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: Because you heard what is now.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: You made it through. That's right.
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: But it's like, I'm cool with that. Really, I am.
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: I feel like I'm very lucky. I'm grateful. Maybe the failures,
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: the adversities that I had in my life have kind
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: of allowed me to learn what I've learned. I didn't
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: learn anything from success, except to just try to repeat
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: it and get defensive. And you know what I mean?
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: But you learn from one thing you learn from failure,
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: getting knocked down is like, it's not going to kill you.
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean? You actually can get back
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: up and you can. And then when you see, you
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: can do that, you're like, I could take more risks. Okay.
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: What's the worst that can happen. I've already kind of
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: dealt with that. And, uh, I kind of think it's funny. Also,
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: my kids, that's the only thing they care about in
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: their mind. That's like the only thing. They're like, at
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: least you're a meme.
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: Like, just any meme is good.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Your family's group chat is full of memes.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Of you, bitch.
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: Right, right.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: The Dunkin' Donuts. It was the door slam video. That
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: was like a thing.
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: Oh, the door slam.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Hilarious.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: People don't go through things. I felt this.
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: Those people, I love it. Like, I spilled some shit. Right. Like,
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: you guys never spilled anything.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: Guess what?
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: You didn't have somebody with a camera aimed at you, right,
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: when you spilled it. But, you know, it is that, like,
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: the only thing more embarrassing than that is, like, you
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: ever see somebody, like, riding their bike and fall over?
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: Has that happened to you? Has it happened? That's why
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: I don't ride a bike. That's why I don't read that.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Damn, I feel bad.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: So you've genuinely been going through painful things while the
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: internet was laughing at you, like, sometimes?
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: I think that that's probably, I think that like in
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: those moments, some of them, honestly, just the way I look,
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: I just probably came outside.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I'm tired.
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: And it's like, it looks like, damn, this world's on
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: its shows. If they were moments that was like, oh,
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: that was the day that, you know, whatever, somebody died,
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: then I'd be like, hey, that's not, but I think it's,
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: I mean, look, I could take a joke. I think
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: you need to be able to be in front, if
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: you're going to be in front of the world and
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: you're going to be asked to make, you've got to,
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: these days, if you don't have a sense of humor
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: about yourself, if you're not able to take a joke,
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: Good luck. Yeah, you're in a lot of trouble. Like
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: that stuff, honestly, I kind of see it for what
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: it is. Like this life is a carnival and the
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: dogs are going to bark at the floats as they
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: go by. You know what I mean? And so there's
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: always going to be kind of some attention. And what
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: I've really learned in, I don't know, it's been a
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: lot of decades out in front of there is like
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: half the shit I don't even remember.
• 40:49
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: Honestly, I've forgotten plenty of things. What really trips me
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: out is all the people who, if I get like,
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I can't believe they said this. This isn't true.
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: And people are like, hey, this is the bargain that
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: you made. And then that person ends up in the papers.
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: They're on the phone for 15 minutes, the New York Post, like,
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: you need to correct this. I'm like, oh, what happened
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: to the bargain you made?
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: But it's the burden of being who y'all are, right?
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Like, there's a burden of being Kerry Washington to a
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: certain extent. There's a burden of being Ben Affleck to
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: a certain extent, right?
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: You get a lot of good things. Yeah.
• 41:19
  Speaker 6: There's a lot tougher jobs with bigger burdens than ours.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: You could have a lot of suffering and be laying brick.
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean? Nobody's taking your picture and
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: nobody sees it and it's just hard. I actually think
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: that some of that is why they're like, makes people
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: feel good. It's all over the place.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: I'm not the only one.
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: And I really don't mind that because the truth is
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: life can be hard on you sometimes. I don't care
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: who you are. We face challenges. Life is not just
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: going to lay itself out for you, you know? You're
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: going to have to overcome some stuff and deal with stuff.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: And honestly, I've been held a lot luckier than most people,
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: so I don't have a lot to complain about.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: Either one of you ever wonder who you would have
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: become if you hadn't gotten famous?
• 42:03
  Speaker 6: That's such an interesting question. I think I would, like,
• 42:08
  Speaker 6: what we would have done?
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: I don't understand.
• 42:10
  Speaker 6: Because I think, I would like to think that I'd
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: be the same person person in terms of my values,
• 42:16
  Speaker 6: the things that I care about, the people that I love,
• 42:21
  Speaker 6: maybe less massages. But I probably would be a teacher
• 42:26
  Speaker 6: is what I would be doing.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: I could so see you doing that.
• 42:29
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: I mean, my mom is a retired professor of education.
• 42:32
  Speaker 7: What?
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: She'd be like a CEO or something. You know what
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: I mean? You'd be running some industry type. I mean,
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: she's like, she would be dominating things. You know what
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: I mean? It's my opinion. Like, this is somebody who has...
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: every opportunity that she's had, she's always made the most
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: of it. Oh, let me go write a novel. Let
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: me have this podcast. But there's no end to Carrie's
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: kind of ambition to, and not ambition for the sake
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: of like, let me, oh, I want to rule the world.
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: But like, hey, I have something to say. Let me
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: express myself in this way. And let me look at
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: the system as it exists, figure out a way to
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: navigate that, build it and be successful. You've done that
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: in 15 different ways. It's hard.
• 43:07
  Speaker 6: Part of that is also like, I think some of
• 43:10
  Speaker 6: that is the pressure of having a grandmother who came
• 43:12
  Speaker 6: here through Ellis Island and worked to clean houses. It's
• 43:14
  Speaker 6: like if I have an opportunity in front of me,
• 43:16
  Speaker 6: I'm so terrified to waste it. So terrified to not
• 43:19
  Speaker 6: live to my fullest potential because it feels like not
• 43:22
  Speaker 6: everybody gets the opportunities that we get.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: What about you, Ben?
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Is there a version of you that you feel like
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: you never got the opportunity to become?
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: You know, that's an interesting question. It's just like these
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: roads that are untaken. You don't know. I know that
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: I wanted to be an actor and I wanted to
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: be a filmmaker. I wanted to do this from a
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: very young age. I think I could easily imagine not
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: having had breaks and opportunities and being less successful in
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: that capacity because I was down to be like, all right, well,
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: maybe I'll do plays or maybe I'll do something I
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: could imagine being a cinematographer and being really interested in that.
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: I would have probably picked something around this. It was like,
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: how much would I have been able to get to?
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: I was driven... really honestly, because my father, I viewed
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: him as, uh, uh, I mean, just sound about like
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: as a failure, like, like this was a guy who
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: could not get a job, who had a lot of problems,
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: who was a drunk, who was always like getting fired. And,
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: and also said, Oh, you know, I'm going to be
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: a writer or whatever it was. And I was like, dude,
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: you can't even fix a Toyota. You know what I mean?
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: Like at the auditorium, you know, like, or be a
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: bartender or, you know, he was a janitor for, uh,
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: at Harvard, which is where the good one thing sort
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: of idea came from. And, For me, a lot of
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: my youth was driven from, I'm not gonna be that.
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: I'm not gonna fail. I'm not gonna be broke. I'm
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: gonna get a job. I'm gonna make money. My goal
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: was to be, not say I'm an actor slash waiter slash,
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: I wanna actually make a living doing this. It really
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: was that. To me, that was success to not have
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: to kind of qualify with something else and have another job.
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: I think I put too much emphasis actually on money
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: in some ways. Yeah, in the beginning. because that can
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: mess you up make you bad choices you know like
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: you start making choices just based on money in this
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: business you're going to do stuff that's you know oftentimes
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: isn't as good and it's so.
• 45:07
  Speaker 6: Funny i always say to people i'm very practiced at
• 45:10
  Speaker 6: saying no in this business because from very early on
• 45:12
  Speaker 6: i would read a script and be like this is
• 45:14
  Speaker 6: a terrible film for a black woman like the stereotype
• 45:18
  Speaker 6: that is being perpetuated in this project there's no way
• 45:20
  Speaker 6: i could forgive myself to do this so I'd rather
• 45:22
  Speaker 6: work three more shifts in the restaurant than take on
• 45:24
  Speaker 6: this role.
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: So I had to start.
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: Making those choices very early. Hollywood shuffle style. She was
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: always job at the post office. Yeah, exactly.
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad that you are, Ben Affleck, because we
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: wouldn't have the memes.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: And I'm glad that you are, Kerry.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: Washington, because we got some memes for you, too. That's great.
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: That's great.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that we got them. And Jess said you're
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: her favorite daredevil. Thank you.
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: Yes, you are. That made me feel good.
• 45:47
  Speaker 5: I have this podcast. You don't agree?
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: He's an idiot.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: I didn't know.
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: I have this podcast at Simpson Street called Street You
• 45:53
  Speaker 6: Grew Up On because Simpson Street is the street in
• 45:54
  Speaker 6: the Bronx that my mother grew up on. And Ben
• 45:56
  Speaker 6: talks a lot about growing up in Boston and Cambridge.
• 46:00
  Speaker 5: And like, it's really.
• 46:02
  Speaker 6: inspiring to hear his kind of once upon a time
• 46:05
  Speaker 6: and where it all began.
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: This is what I mean about Carrie. She'll hustle her
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: podcast on this.
• 46:12
  Speaker 6: I think it's really special to drop into where you
• 46:15
  Speaker 6: come from because it's not from nowhere.
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: You are the best there is.
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: Also, yes, wherever you get your podcast. There you go.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: This is good.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: This is my last question.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: The title of the movie is Animals, right? What does
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: that title mean to each of you? Is it about
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: what people become when they're desperate? Because I'm listening to
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: y'all talk and it feels like underneath the money and
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: the success, you're just driven by the same survival instincts
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: as every other human.
• 46:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think we forget that we're animals.
• 46:42
  Speaker 6: That as human beings, we are animals. And I think
• 46:45
  Speaker 6: the film asks, and you can correct me if I'm
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: wrong because it's your movie, but I think the film
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: asks when we are confronted with a moment of crisis,
• 46:54
  Speaker 6: with our worst nightmares, are we able to maintain our human... dignity,
• 46:59
  Speaker 6: moral compass, ethical code, or do we turn into that
• 47:03
  Speaker 6: sort of lizard brain version of ourselves that just acts
• 47:06
  Speaker 6: on survival instincts? And are we able to think past
• 47:12
  Speaker 6: the tribes that we separate ourselves into? You know, when
• 47:15
  Speaker 6: we say, when we talk about like a human family,
• 47:17
  Speaker 6: are we able to kind of see each other and
• 47:20
  Speaker 6: take care of each other or are we reduced to
• 47:22
  Speaker 6: our own tiny circles of who we think we're supposed
• 47:24
  Speaker 6: to care for?
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and for me also, I think there's a question.
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: I think that's sort of on my mind looking around
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: the world and seeing situations where people will really advertise
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: one value and live another one and trying to reconcile, like,
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: look at that. Not even so much from a judgmental place,
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: but recognizing, oh, I see how this happens. It really
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: has to do with if something personal is going to
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: affect you, that's the best way to get people to
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: change their values or to change their behavior in ways
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: as was, you look around and see that it's extremely effective.
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: And so the question I have is like, how much
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: are we, you know, it really came from this article
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: I read that said, like, there's three stages of moral development.
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: When we're children, we get punishment and reward, right? You're
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: going to get spanking or you're going to get a
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: cookie or whatever it is. And that's just how we
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: learn right and wrong. You hit adolescence. And then you
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: understand that, yeah, there's rules that, that exists so that
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: we can all sort of get along with each other.
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: And also if I'm perceived to be a bad person,
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: that's bad for me socially. Other people will judge me.
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: And that supposedly, according to this article, only about 15%
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: of people arrive at the third stage of moral, of
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: moral development, which is, You know, the article used Martin
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: Luther King, like I'm willing to sacrifice myself, my freedom.
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: I'll go to prison. You know what I mean? In
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: order to protest something I think is wrong. In other words,
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: like even though this does not serve me, I'm not
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: going to adhere to something, whether it's the state or
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: the church or or whatever the the structure of society is.
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: I will sacrifice something that's meaningful to me. And I thought, man,
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: that's cynical. Like only 15%, not of course, you're gonna
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: be all be like Dr. Keeney and all saints, I
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: understand that. But still, everybody likes to say, no, I'm
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: a good person. Everybody will tell you that because it's important.
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: So I was wondering how much of that is that
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: we seek the things that are in our interests and
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: then build a story around that to justify it. How
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: much is in us that actually seeks out goodness and
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: and wants to live according to to a way that
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: we can live with and you know i think there's
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: a i think we're all subject to those tensions right
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: and that's that's the it's a movie i'm not trying
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: to i don't believe in movies that like lectures or
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: sermons or that give you answers are you going to
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: leave with my truth about the world that's why i
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: wanted all these voices why i wanted this kind of
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: collision of of stories i want to just ask the
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: question and i think the audience will come away probably
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: with their own views that have to do with their own.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Life and experience yeah it I got to ask this
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: last one.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: So do you believe people are fundamentally good or are
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: we only good when life makes it.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Easy to be?
• 50:12
  Speaker 6: I think part of the question is how do you
• 50:13
  Speaker 6: define goodness? What does goodness mean to you? It makes
• 50:17
  Speaker 6: me think about this Nicole Hannah-Jones article that.
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: Everybody's talking about in terms of who do you take
• 50:21
  Speaker 5: care of? Who is it your job? When we talk
• 50:23
  Speaker 5: about loving community, who are you fighting for? Who are you.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: Is it okay to put.
• 50:27
  Speaker 5: Your child on the front lines for change?
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: It's really.
• 50:32
  Speaker 6: So I think that's part of it. It's like, what
• 50:34
  Speaker 6: does goodness mean to you? Does goodness include everybody?
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: I think people want to be happy. I think all
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: people want to be happy. And how we define that
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: is really the question. My happiness, willing to, at someone
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: else's expense, at the expense of things like, I think
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: we're all basically good in that sense that nobody's trying to,
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: or very few people are, just trying to hurt somebody else.
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: But it's like, where do we understand that balance between
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: our happiness, our needs, and how this is impacting other people.
• 51:06
  Speaker 5: Okay, I'm going to say one more thing.
• 51:08
  Speaker 6: And I feel like you go even deeper in the
• 51:11
  Speaker 6: film because more than being happy, it really is like
• 51:14
  Speaker 6: everybody wants to be loved. And not even just romantically loved,
• 51:17
  Speaker 6: but loved in the way that a parent loves a child.
• 51:20
  Speaker 6: Everyone wants to feel like they belong and they will
• 51:22
  Speaker 6: be protected and that they have somebody who will stand
• 51:25
  Speaker 6: by them and be in their corner.
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: And if you don't have that, that is one of
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: the likeliest things I think that cause you to not
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: observe some of the, yeah, exactly. People want to be seen.
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: People want to be known. They want to be loved.
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: They want to be included. You know, that's the main difference.
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: I see it at work. Like, you make people feel
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: like I said before, I'm rooting for you. I like you.
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: Because it's the way I was as an actor. I
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: want to show up. I want the director to just
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: make me feel like you like me and you're rooting
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: for me and I'm doing good. I'll do better for you.
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: When I don't feel that way, I start, I second
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: guess myself. I feel like a fraud. I get tight.
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: Then it does start getting bad and you know what
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: I mean? It's a negative cycle. Like, the way we're felt,
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: we feel that we're believed in by others has a
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: hard impact on who we are, how we live, and
• 52:09
  Speaker 4: how well we can live. Man.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Animals, out today on Netflix. Make sure you check it out.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: Ben Affleck, Kerry Washington. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Absolutely.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: It's The Breakfast Club.