Latest / Straumann® ProTalk / Art never dies, it just becomes digital: The evolution of aesthetic dentistry with Dr. Florin Cofar & Dr. Eric Van Dooren (video version)

Transcript

Art never dies, it just becomes digital: The evolution of aesthetic dentistry with Dr. Florin Cofar & Dr. Eric Van Dooren (video version) · Straumann® ProTalk

0:00
But it's like you said, we are probably the only profession that
0:03
the first sells and then executes, and then in the end starts to plan.
0:07
Why was and is 3DNA so important for SmileCloud to be a next step?
0:13
It gives you clarity and a supervision and a way to align this vision with all the
0:19
others and the fluid way to interact with other technologies and other softwares.
0:24
We talked about your lab, that you had such a big lab in your practice.
0:28
How did your lab technician look at this?
0:30
The best of the best technicians, of course, they were not happy to see a
0:33
machine mill tooth form that was like always different and many times better.
0:52
Welcome to ProTalk.
0:53
Welcome to The Pulse of Dentistry.
0:55
Welcome to this episode that you know we are welcoming you from Portugal,
1:00
from the International Aesthetic Days in Villa Moura, which for us is a very
1:03
special event centering around actually excellence in aesthetic industry and for
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this topic today, I'm very happy that I can welcome two very special guests, Dr.
1:14
Eric Van Dooren, and Dr. Florin Cofar.
1:17
Welcome, Eric . Thank you.
1:20
Welcome, Florin.
1:20
It's a great pleasure to have you today.
1:23
Very much looking forward to our conversation and today what you will
1:28
learn and what you will, what we'll dive into is all about aesthetic
1:33
dentistry, mastering aesthetic dentistry, the philosophy it takes.
1:37
It will be a lot about collaboration, probably about vision, about art, and
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about precision and how to approach.
1:46
Aesthetic industry with a master's mind and really creating
1:49
excellence for the patients.
1:50
So thanks for being with us today.
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It's my pleasure, Eric and Florin.
1:54
And the first question we always start with is, Eric, maybe we start with you.
1:58
Who is Eric Vandorn in one minute.
2:00
I know this is very difficult in one minute, but that's, who is Eric
2:03
Vandorn?
2:04
Eric Van Dorin is a dentist from Belgium, Antwerp, semi-retired.
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Although Florin says, I'm not, this is not true.
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Semi-retired since I know him.
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Enjoying still the job like I did before that case is crucial and important
2:20
and traveling a lot, lecturing still a lot, and enjoying the new technologies
2:26
and new ways of looking at dentistry.
2:28
Besides enjoying my family and my friends.
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Okay.
2:32
That's it.
2:32
Good?
2:33
Yeah.
2:33
Thank you Eric.
2:34
Florin?
2:36
To make a parallel with Eric, I am Florin dentist from Timișoara Romania.
2:42
Also involved in technology, as some of you might know, and trying to balance
2:48
life also with, family and all the activities that we currently have trying
2:54
to make, ends meet and enjoying a lot.
2:57
I have to say that yeah, I'm, I am, I think we are very fortunate
3:01
to be doing the kind of things and to be privileged to, to travel,
3:07
to have this type of experience.
3:10
It's a good life.
3:11
Yes.
3:12
And passion is a big part of it.
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I realize for both of you, the passion for what you do and enjoying it.
3:18
Now we speak here, aesthetic day is 2025.
3:21
But let's dive a little bit into your journey quickly.
3:24
Eric, what is your background and what was, let's say, the most,
3:28
three important steps or moments or people that have influenced the
3:32
Eric Van Dooren and we see today?
3:35
I think my journey started, I graduated in 1982, as in Catholic University at Leuven.
3:42
As a general dentist, basically not at all interested in dentistry, I have to say.
3:47
Okay.
3:48
So I was playing more football and tennis than being a dentist, but
3:53
the last year, one of my professors sent me, because I was teaching, I
3:57
was giving tennis lessons basically.
4:00
I was playing in university team in Leuven of Tennis.
4:03
So he saw it and he, he told me, why don't you give me some tennis lessons?
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So I did.
4:08
And he said you know what, for your last six months, I'm gonna send you
4:10
to a guy in Brussels who is in a very shabby office, but he's unbelievable
4:15
because he's doing both soft tissue implants and prosthetics, but I didn't
4:21
understand exactly what it meant.
4:23
So I had my training for my last six months in his office, and
4:26
that opened my eyes for sure.
4:28
Then we started an office, or I started an office in in Brussels, where I got
4:34
interested in mainly soft tissue surgery.
4:36
Combining pros and soft tissue surgery because I was thinking that
4:41
in many of the cases it's very nice to be able to use or to change things
4:46
that you cannot just change with the white part, with the teeth part.
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And then I basically went to a lot of courses and I met one guy in Dallas,
4:55
Texas, pat Allen, and basically he was my teacher since, or still is my god.
5:03
And since 30 years already, so there I learned a lot.
5:07
And then 12 years ago I met the second God Florin Cofar.
5:12
No, it's true because you just, I, I didn't enjoy, it's always cyclic you.
5:18
You learn about new things, then you are getting used to it, and
5:22
then you need something else to be motivated and to get involved
5:26
again in the things that you like.
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And then I met Florin.
5:29
I don't know, I met you in my house in Brazil.
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No, the first time.
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You were full of red dots because you slept on the beach.
5:35
We were with a lot of mosquitoes around.
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We've met Indian reservation in Brussel.
5:40
Yeah.
5:40
You went to an Indian Reserve?
5:42
Yeah,
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next to close to my house.
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So that's where I met him.
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And then already then I thought, he's it's sometimes you meet people and
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you feel the energy is different.
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So I felt just after a few hours, I felt it was a little bit different than
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all the others already was talking then about digital and I didn't understand.
5:58
And and that's when I got,
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or was it in a dentistry context, like in a course or was just like pure incidents?
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Pure luck, let's say.
6:05
Okay.
6:06
Wow.
6:06
Okay.
6:08
So Pat Allen made a big impact on you and very big impact, like on many others.
6:12
And I think Eric, today, I can say it you would never say it about yourself.
6:16
I know it you made a you made a big impact on many other people as well.
6:19
So I think that's a a beautiful
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development.
6:22
I think it's just a question of being able to give not only take
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or in anything you want to do.
6:29
No,
6:29
yeah, absolutely.
6:30
And to share.
6:31
So that's.
6:32
How was it for you l your journey?
6:34
What was have been the major?
6:36
Similar milestones, similar to Papa.
6:40
I called Eric Papa for long time, but similar.
6:44
When I finished school, I basically got the license, the diploma.
6:49
Okay.
6:49
It's just inertia.
6:50
At that time I had not a real direction.
6:54
It's just I think we, especially, I think if I look at my kids also boys
6:59
have a delay I think a little bit.
7:00
Sometimes when the time comes, you're not ready to take a decision.
7:04
Then both parents, dentists, so I go to dental school and it was after I finished
7:09
dental school that I really found calling.
7:12
Okay.
7:13
But then I worked just explorative genetic for maybe a year and something
7:20
then I wanted to integrate in the team.
7:24
And then, my, my father was a surgeon, all of that, and everybody
7:27
was advising me, Hey, you have to.
7:30
Go for this and do that.
7:31
And I remember I asked myself, okay, what is this team weakest point?
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What nobody wants to do, and it was Endo at that time.
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This is why I started with Endo.
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'cause, it was the fastest way for me to get, a foothold there
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and to help all the others.
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So make myself, let's say useful.
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But then Endo didn't really fit my character because I get, I get bored.
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Easy.
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So there's few things that can be more boring than Endo at a
7:59
certain point, once you have the.
8:01
Protocol in check.
8:04
So then I went on a path again to meet people and I was lucky that I
8:08
had some consecutive, people that I learned from each a little bit.
8:13
I remember the first day saw Mauro.
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Yeah.
8:16
Then.
8:16
Galip and Itan.
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Then Christian Coachman, and then I was lucky to meet Papa over here, which
8:25
again, I think it's always different when there's people that you learn from and
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there's people that you wanna become.
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This is a very big difference and I think it's that's at the end of the day
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if you talk about relevant moments, this is one of those relevant moments because
8:40
then you get a different kind of drive.
8:42
Yeah.
8:43
There's the normal things and then there's, okay.
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I have a goal, which is much further away.
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And then also important for me was and still is today, and I
8:54
still credit a lot to him, Paulo.
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Who is for me, one of the most amazing people we have in this profession.
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And yeah.
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And at a certain point, okay, at a certain point I gave myself the freedom
9:10
to, to start to create and to innovate.
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Because at a certain, you learn.
9:15
At a certain point, it's just a click when you can say, okay, I can.
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Maybe have the confidence enough to just use what I learned and
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to try to improve certain things and that's how things evolve.
9:31
It was a good journey.
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Yeah.
9:32
And I think interesting that, you moved out of indoor because if I look what you
9:37
do today, it's it's, I think we can be very fortunate that you unlocked your
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food potential in the very complex cases that you guys are doing, which I believe
9:45
are difficult, but also very rewarding.
9:47
Speaking about balance a bit, so both of you, you are clinicians, run your own
9:52
practice, collaborate a lot on cases.
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You educate, you teach a lot.
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Spend time mentoring people.
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Florin also you are an entrepreneur with SmileCloud.
10:03
Both of you have a family.
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How do you keep balance?
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I imagine that's not always easy.
10:07
No, it's,
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Very difficult balance.
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Probably it's the most difficult balance to keep and your family
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happy and your office happy.
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And yourself happy, basically.
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I was very fortunate to have in the office, which I closed now colleagues
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that stayed for 20, 25 years.
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That took over when I was traveling, they took over.
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So that's exactly what you need.
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You need stability both in your professional environment
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and your family environment.
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And I am.
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Very fortunate, again, to have a wife that understood that I was ambitious
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probably, and that I wanted to travel.
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And it probably goes together with a little bit of let me turn it differently.
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Today, I have more time for my grandchildren than I had for my children.
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And that's maybe the only thing that I regret.
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That I didn't take the time because in the weekend traveling then back
10:55
home, start to work come home late is Yeah it's really a difficult balance.
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Really, even already as a dentist, simply working in the office is difficult.
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So then if you travel and you work and you have the family,
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it's different level of balance.
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Yeah.
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How about you Florine?
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I think my balance is my wife.
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Yes, exactly.
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Yes.
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Most of the time it's it's I think it's important that, she was always
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like supportive, but at the same time when, when I go too much into, Hey,
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I did this and did that, and da at a certain point after two minutes,
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she cuts it like this and say, Hey.
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Enough.
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Now here you, it's only dentistry.
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Father, the husband, I don't care about all your stuff, and this is healthy.
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Okay?
11:42
Because otherwise we go too much in one direction.
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And I think again Eric, I wasn't, I'm fortunate to, yeah, to have a
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partner like this.
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I think our two wives, they know each other.
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Yeah.
11:56
And they're very similar from a completely different age,
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but they're just both the same.
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And I think if they're not supportive, you forget about
12:04
No.
12:04
It's impossible to yes.
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To work if you don't have this,
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rock, there's always a strong person.
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The background, this.
12:11
Yeah, that makes sense.
12:13
I believe.
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What's what's connecting you to bit my observation is the philosophy and the
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way you look at dentistry would you agree, when you met the first time in
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Brazil in, in the house, or what is what connected you in the first instance?
12:29
Me
12:29
What?
12:29
Yeah, you can
12:30
You go first.
12:31
No, you do.
12:31
No problem.
12:32
I'm gonna steal my answer.
12:34
I think what connected does is the drive for perfection, basically.
12:38
Yeah.
12:38
The OCD, huh?
12:40
I Florin always says to me that I have OCD in a very high degree.
12:45
No.
12:45
Obsessive compulsive.
12:47
No.
12:47
It's obsessive
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care for details.
12:49
Yes.
12:50
It's, that was what, yeah, probably we both are perfectionists and we we always
12:57
take everything very constructive.
12:59
And we both like to learn.
13:02
Yes this, and here you get much more credit because yeah, you have
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done it for much longer than I did.
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And then it's also a matter of shared vision.
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The fact that we, again, we believe that simple things like.
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Hey, before you start doing something, you're, you need to
13:19
be able to visualize the final outcome before you do the first cut.
13:23
And here we are very much aligned and even before we had all of this
13:27
technology and all of that, and I went to his office in Belgium, like
13:33
half of the building, there was a lab.
13:35
Okay.
13:35
And that's when you don't expect, you knowing Eric, like from the outside
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famous surgeon and all of that.
13:41
And then the emphasis on the lab was so strong back then.
13:45
And I remember, asking the technicians to simulate the with wax, the graphs
13:50
and all of these things, which are the same things that we eventually
13:53
are doing today with, different
13:55
tech.
13:56
Yeah.
13:56
When we were lecturing today together.
13:59
I was thinking about this 25 years ago, 30 years ago.
14:02
Yeah.
14:02
We had these famous technicians, they came and we were asking
14:04
them, like you say, yeah.
14:06
To simulate things in wax, which is craftmanship.
14:09
But what Florin did than in, he brought it to next level, which
14:13
is digitalize all of these things.
14:15
Which makes everything much more easy for any dentist now, because
14:19
you what I had the setup that we had in Anter was today would be
14:23
realistic because we were flying him.
14:25
Brazilian technicians for two weeks, working day and night, Saturday, Sunday,
14:30
having very beautiful cases ready.
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But there was like an analog philosophy that is translated now into digital, which
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makes me very happy because I see many things that we did already long time ago.
14:42
In a different way.
14:43
They appear now.
14:44
And in a very efficient and productive way they appear now.
14:49
So it's this ob obsession for perfection and detail and position
14:53
that, that you share and the mindset of starting with the end in mind.
14:56
Yes.
14:57
I think where do you compliment each other
15:02
in many ways?
15:04
So first I think I first of all,
15:08
Eric always has the experience, the wisdom.
15:11
These are the things where it is always gonna be, the better half.
15:15
And I guess I but I wouldn't say that only, I have a little bit of creativity.
15:21
He has a lot also, so I'm not sure what I'm really adding,
15:25
but I know what I get from him.
15:27
I'm not sure if I'm adding too much, but maybe ask, I know what I get.
15:31
No, I think
15:31
you just the, your vision on things and your.
15:36
Strength to analyze things in a different way, but especially your vision.
15:41
And the way you push your vision through.
15:44
Yeah.
15:44
Okay.
15:44
No matter what happens next to you.
15:47
And that's a huge strength.
15:49
It's a huge plus, I would say,
15:51
From knowing you now a couple of years, I would underline this.
15:56
Things happening long time before they happen.
15:58
Yes.
15:59
Visionary.
15:59
Exactly.
16:00
I think this is simple.
16:01
So your philosophy, if you approach.
16:04
A case, what are the core principles for you or the non-negotiables
16:08
where say, look, this is really, if we approach a case, this is
16:11
non-negotiable and this is a core of
16:13
our philosophy to get all the initial information, no, all the
16:17
data, and then from the data try.
16:21
To plan something without even touching the patient.
16:23
So to visualize anything you want to do with the patient.
16:27
And basically what we see is that 80, 90% will be decided upon at the start already.
16:33
So we take a lot of time to document, a lot of time to analyze,
16:37
a lot of time to treatment plan.
16:40
And in the end of the day, 80% will be like this.
16:42
And then you have a variable variables that you don't always know from the start.
16:47
But then the execution is
16:49
yes.
16:51
Swiss is a big word, but you understand what I mean.
16:54
Precise?
16:54
No.
16:54
That's flawless and precise.
16:55
And because you're propel 'cause you are prepared.
16:58
Yeah.
16:58
That's the thing.
16:58
But it's like you said, we are probably the only profession that
17:02
the first cells and then executes and then in the end starts to plan.
17:06
And that's why there's so many failures.
17:08
And that's why all the technicians are getting, like in Belgium,
17:11
we don't have anymore because they're like They're firemen.
17:14
Yeah, they're firemen for anything.
17:17
I remember, Florin you once compared it when we talked.
17:20
You compared it to architecture.
17:22
It's a bit the same.
17:23
The way you approach it, you first build the house or you create a vision
17:27
of the house and then you know, you.
17:30
Then you start building it and not the other way around.
17:33
Yeah.
17:33
And let me make a simple comparison.
17:35
We advocate a lot this idea of having one design Yeah.
17:39
Which is the same like for a house, but this is not just something
17:42
that needs to stay abstract.
17:44
Imagine okay.
17:46
That the architect creates this design but then keeps it on the computer at
17:51
his house and nobody can reach him.
17:53
And construction happens in that time.
17:55
How will that work?
17:56
So what we want is first of all, that the plan exists and that the plan is
18:02
layered, disconnected, because not, we don't want like one plan for this,
18:06
one, plan for that one, plan for that.
18:08
And at the end we play firemen to put it together.
18:10
We want one plan.
18:12
And a framework that this is accessible and it's a parallel reference to the
18:17
actual patient because you see, this is the lane where you see the patient.
18:21
Imagine a long treatment.
18:22
Two years.
18:23
Every time you see the patient, what we will see a changing
18:25
situation all the time.
18:27
So how can I manage a changing situation without improvising if
18:32
I don't have a go-to reference?
18:34
So what is important for us is to always spend time on that
18:38
reference on, what is the design?
18:41
Okay.
18:41
We create a common definition of success.
18:45
And then, as we go, whenever we have any doubt or any iteration
18:50
or fine tuning, because there will be, you have always the go-to.
18:55
Because if you just keep the patient's mouth as the reference,
18:58
you are just looking at the waves.
19:00
They're going like this.
19:01
That's the problem.
19:02
One observation that I also have is that what is very unique about your approach
19:06
is the collaboration that you have with, let's say all the specialists,
19:10
dental technicians around you.
19:12
I feel this is.
19:13
Somewhat much more intense than what I usually observe.
19:17
How do you approach collaboration and how many people do we do
19:20
you involve in cases like this?
19:21
Because as an architect, you could build the vision of the future house
19:25
just yourself, but you don't, right?
19:27
Yeah.
19:28
Conceptually, it's just, I think the more you involve the
19:32
better potentially you can get.
19:35
But the thing is very important to understand what we.
19:40
Due to change a little bit.
19:42
The way the game works is we never just discuss, okay, what We always
19:48
start from a draft, which is usually, it was in the past two.
19:51
Even now it's three dimensional and you have a conversation
19:56
over something which is, palp.
19:58
It's visual, it's facial, everybody can see.
20:02
And we make sure everybody understands the same thing.
20:04
Because if we're doing it without that, what happens is
20:08
we are gonna create parallel different images within our minds.
20:11
Okay.
20:12
And then we will collaborate by expectation, not by reality.
20:20
Because in my mind, there's an expectation of what he does, and he
20:23
has an expectation of what I will do.
20:25
And it's really important to align this before everything starts.
20:29
So I think at the end of the day, we just make sure that we always work on a draft.
20:34
Okay.
20:35
Very simple.
20:35
We have technicians for this.
20:37
A technician will create a design in the beginning, which is agnostic of specialty.
20:42
'cause that's another thing.
20:42
We are biased.
20:44
We are biased in how we plan.
20:46
I will push towards pro.
20:48
The ortho will push towards ortho.
20:50
So just, okay.
20:51
What is ideal here?
20:52
It start there and then basically, it's almost like making a gap analysis
20:57
between what is ideal and what you have.
21:00
And based on that, then you realize, okay, that gap analysis tells
21:04
you we, you need this skillset.
21:06
And then you ask yourself, do I have the skillset?
21:08
Yes.
21:09
Fine.
21:09
I do.
21:10
No.
21:10
Then, okay, I know what skillset I need.
21:13
And then
21:14
you ask.
21:14
It's, but besides that, it's also nice to see that there's a group of people,
21:20
and this grew really organically, that enjoyed to go to Tim as a reference
21:25
place to go, not only because of the quality of the work, but also because
21:29
of documentation, many other things.
21:30
So from all over the world.
21:32
Many people go and just spend time there.
21:35
Like I could see here in your on your Congress while at Gustavo Jordan, there's
21:40
Victor Kla, or there's Benjamin Kota.
21:42
There's I can, there's maybe 15 names and all.
21:45
Very but what is important is that we all have the same,
21:49
let's say, professional values.
21:51
We, we value also the quality of the work.
21:53
But also the friendship and that I think is essential to respect each other and
21:58
value the friendship between the group.
22:01
And they're all high level all.
22:02
Yeah.
22:03
They just go and they, after I will tell you, they pay, own their own ticket and
22:08
they don't, we don't get paid there.
22:09
So now you do it for progress, for as a team to see new things.
22:13
And there's always, let's say if I go every four months or six
22:18
months, always something changed.
22:20
And if nothing changed changes anymore, I will stop.
22:24
That's not the problem.
22:26
This not happen so soon and everything is the same for me.
22:29
If I get bored, then it's game over.
22:31
So I It's possible.
22:32
Exactly.
22:34
So I like the way you also described this Florin that you start actually
22:38
with a prototype because I think it's also, in our world, it's the same.
22:41
It's a very efficient way to work and you make progress fast
22:44
and everybody sees the same.
22:46
And then you discuss in this discussions, how important is
22:50
disagreement and creative tension?
22:53
Or how often does it happen and how do you solve it?
22:57
Often it, of course it will happen, but the thing is usually again,
23:03
you have to make it palpable.
23:05
Okay.
23:05
It's, I'll give you an example.
23:07
Okay.
23:08
If I imagine I, I will, I talk to the orthodontist.
23:12
And we have a disagreement on an ortho topic who will be right by default, the
23:19
specialist, the orthodontist, right?
23:21
There's no way my opinion can outweigh his opinion.
23:25
But then the way to ask the question is, normally you go to the orthodontist
23:30
only with a problem, and I think you should go with the problem and
23:36
with the draft of the solution.
23:39
And only ask the question, not what you would you do here, but
23:42
ask the question, is this possible or Can you do this or not?
23:46
Propose an alternative?
23:47
And we again, everything has to be practical.
23:51
If you say no, okay, fine.
23:53
But then you give me an option and then we check your option.
23:58
The only thing that I don't really, I cannot work with is lack of commitment
24:04
to a certain solution I cannot live with.
24:07
Okay.
24:08
We'll see what happens.
24:09
This for me is anxiety.
24:10
I don't know for you.
24:11
But I cannot just start something not knowing of,
24:15
And sometimes people also think that, if we discuss cases, for example,
24:18
that it should take half an hour of teams or one hour discussing.
24:22
No, it's sometimes five minutes, but just to, to determine the way to go.
24:26
Keeping the final goal in, in, in your mind doesn't need to be very
24:31
long discussions, just pragmatically.
24:34
In time you align more and what happens is you gain a common
24:38
denominator in the critical eye.
24:39
So in the beginning, you look at the same thing different dots.
24:42
And as you go and as you do this exercise often you put the same picture and
24:47
instantly both can see the same problem.
24:49
And then discussion is okay directly.
24:51
Okay.
24:52
Let's, there we have a problem.
24:54
So imagine I'm a young clinician, okay?
24:57
And want to build maybe a prosthodontic practice moving forward.
25:02
What would be your recommendation to me?
25:04
How to build a strong team?
25:05
What do I need to watch out for?
25:06
To build
25:07
a strong team?
25:07
Around me.
25:09
No, you de a team you deserve in the end, first of all.
25:14
So it's nothing.
25:14
It's not, that's good.
25:15
It's not a thing that will come by itself.
25:17
So if you want to deserve, probably you, your, the quality of what
25:21
you're doing should be high.
25:24
And you should be ready to learn a lot, travel to learn, go to different offices.
25:30
And I think the most important thing is you and you said
25:34
it this morning, I remember.
25:35
You said that you should be ready to fail also, because from the failures,
25:39
that's where you will learn most.
25:42
You will fail and you will have a problem and you will not make the
25:45
same mistake probably the second time.
25:48
And but the team you will just deserve the people around you.
25:52
According to what you deliver and according to your philosophy, and
25:56
probably also according to your character or your charisma or whatever.
26:01
Yeah.
26:01
Mostly you meet like-minded people then.
26:03
It's a, it's what happened also in your case.
26:05
That's a bit my observation.
26:06
I think again you probably said it the most important things and very nice.
26:15
I will try to add something pragmatic to it.
26:17
Okay.
26:18
Just pragmatic in the sense that if I think about the young
26:20
ones, what is healthy to start?
26:24
Imagine you want to get.
26:26
Young people, but the, there will be a gap of level.
26:29
That's what you need to manage.
26:30
Okay.
26:30
They're young and their level is probably a bit higher.
26:33
And how do you bridge the gap and how do you keep it working
26:37
and how do you scale that?
26:39
So I think one of the things that we, again, enforce is documentation.
26:45
For example, if this is one of the things that is non-negotiable
26:48
because with documentation, you, it's, you instill a culture that has.
26:55
Discipline documentation requires discipline.
26:59
Very important quality.
27:01
Then it's also openness and vulnerability because you need to document everything
27:06
regardless if it's good or bad.
27:09
And then it also transparency.
27:11
So everybody has to put everything on the table.
27:14
And this is like a healthy ground for, moving, moving forward.
27:18
So I believe this is one of the keys and then only after, basically in, in our
27:26
universe, only after this is checked.
27:30
Then you get to touch a patient.
27:31
And even if you can be whoever, doesn't matter, but it is just the young ones
27:35
have to master this, and at the beginning they probably will just assist somebody.
27:40
That's doing things.
27:41
When this is done, then you can start to do things because then the framework
27:44
is built in a way that we can control.
27:48
See Papa told me one time he said, Hey.
27:51
We were discussing about the case and he called me like five times about something.
27:56
And then, I got irritated and said, why Papa?
27:59
Trust me.
28:00
I, you told me I will do it.
28:02
And then Eric said, yeah, I trust, but I want to see.
28:05
So it's the same with me.
28:08
Yeah, I trust you, but I want to see
28:10
it's well.
28:12
I feel it's also a good moment to speak about SmileCloud because I
28:15
think SmileCloud is facilitating a lot of what you just discussed.
28:19
What I would be interested in, Florin, you're very visionary person.
28:23
The day that you decided to do SmileCloud was what was actually,
28:27
what was it that you wanted to bring to the world in the first place?
28:31
What was your first idea about Smart Cloud?
28:35
Yeah, that will be a philosophical answer.
28:38
I can tell you.
28:39
It's I have to word no, it's jokes aside.
28:41
So I realized I, I had many angles from which I saw it.
28:46
Not many, but a couple.
28:48
So a couple was I looked, I saw an opportunity.
28:54
An opportunity in the sense that I could see the lack of basic
28:58
tools that we were needing.
29:00
The ability to just put your data in a nice way didn't exist back then.
29:04
We're talking 2016 and it was like I was just starting with digital and I
29:11
realize, I always think in scale for me.
29:14
Want to validate something is something you are able to scale.
29:17
If it just works for one person, it's not really, it's okay,
29:21
but it's not what I focus on.
29:23
And I realized the first thing that you have all these
29:26
broken pieces and we need to.
29:28
Connect them somehow.
29:29
So that was the opportunity part.
29:31
And that started, let's say, the base layer of smart cloud with
29:34
the workspace that it is today.
29:37
But the other layer the other part of the name, the biometrics, is
29:41
where I really believe that the legacy part I really think there's
29:46
a business and there's a legacy.
29:48
Okay.
29:48
Which is more than the business.
29:50
And the legacy is, we've been always doing restorative dentistry for.
29:54
A hundred years, or I don't know how long doesn't matter in what
29:59
sense that we always restore smiles based on genetic information.
30:05
There's, imagine there's a tooth missing.
30:07
We go to school, we learn how a tooth should look like, and we replicate
30:12
out of imagination most of the time, and which tends to be repetitive,
30:17
limited and many, and difficult.
30:19
Because we know that only a fraction of the people can do it in properly.
30:24
So then I realized, hey, design is everywhere.
30:30
The first thing that a sc that a scanner can do is actually capture something.
30:34
But we are using all our scanners to capture only the problems.
30:37
If you take the same scanner and capture, the beautiful part that is there, like
30:41
design we potentially, and this is again, a work in progress, we can really
30:47
shift restorative to its true meaning.
30:50
Think about architecture.
30:51
What is restorative?
30:52
Restorative is not to take an old building and to put a glass windows like nuances
30:57
to restore what was so what I really the legacy, which I start with, and
31:02
then of course that how we, it went in very different ways because the strategy
31:07
and tactics, which you know very well.
31:09
But this the idea was to really enable.
31:14
That the next generation, the one that will come after us, will
31:18
be able to do restorative in a completely different way to restore
31:23
What was, imagine Your Child is 18.
31:27
Perfect.
31:29
Everything.
31:30
Imagine how valuable that information is if you just take the data sets
31:34
that we have today when we talk about virtual patient, all of that,
31:36
imagine how specific, how unique, how individual for me that's worth more
31:41
than all the restorative materials you would use in that treatment.
31:44
So this is a process way beyond SmileCloud and because the change in culture.
31:49
We are only in stage one of the process right now.
31:52
We enable people to really play with the tools.
31:55
Okay.
31:56
That's stage one.
31:57
Stage one is, hey, we show it's possible to copy anything, but in
32:01
stage one we take, we like Robin Hood design, we take from the
32:05
lucky ones and we, yeah, shift it.
32:08
Where is, where we don't have nice anatomy?
32:12
But stage two is that this becomes a culture.
32:15
And if we talk about prevention, for example, which is a big topic like
32:19
for example in Switzerland, all of that, for me, this is as important as
32:23
all the other things in prevention.
32:24
Just, hey, you have a unique opportunity to.
32:28
Take this data.
32:30
And to really harness it,
32:33
exactly.
32:33
Yeah.
32:34
So there's the business and there's the legacy.
32:37
The legacy is always more important than the business for me.
32:40
And that was the vision initially, which is still a long way to
32:46
go, but it's never changed.
32:48
The vision has always been the same.
32:50
It's a long way to go because you still have a lot of ideas and visions, but
32:53
I think what is in place already is, it changed the game significantly.
32:58
Eric, I wonder, we talked about your lab, that you had such
33:01
a big lab in your practice.
33:03
How.
33:04
How did your lab technician look at this?
33:06
Because he used to do this all, by craftsmanship.
33:09
Yes.
33:09
Apart it work, it was much more cumbersome.
33:11
But, was he happy about this?
33:13
How did he adopt?
33:14
And
33:14
I think they, everything for everything.
33:16
You have an adaptation period.
33:18
No, the best of the best technicians, of course, they were not happy to see a
33:21
machine mill, a tooth form that was like always different and many times better.
33:27
But it's always the same thing.
33:29
They probably are able to layer.
33:32
Porcelain in a way that is unbelievable and which is always optically still
33:37
better than, but it's just that.
33:39
Time, it's just a question of time before all these digital technologies
33:44
catch up with the reality of the best technicians in the world.
33:48
And there was friction of course in the beginning, and it took, and many
33:52
of these, it took, it takes them like one, two years to adapt to it.
33:56
But ultimately that's the way where it's going.
33:58
Because there is no way around.
34:00
I cannot, for example, if you place four beautiful veneers and one of the veneers
34:04
as chipping or bricks, are you gonna fly in the same technician for this?
34:08
So we need to have something that is let's say reproducible
34:13
in, in a very acceptable way.
34:15
Let's say we can give up on some optical properties or.
34:19
Getting just a little bit less of optical nice feeling of the material.
34:24
But we on the other side, we are much better in, like Florine said, to fitting
34:29
something into the, in, into the.
34:31
Let's say that the gingiva and the smile and the face of the patient.
34:35
Yeah.
34:35
And
34:35
in a different way it like,
34:37
it's again, a matter of scalability.
34:39
Yes.
34:39
Because in terms of potential, again, the artist hand is still the artist hand.
34:43
The artist hand is, it's unbeatable as a potential, but you have to be pragmatic.
34:48
Yes.
34:49
And understand what is the scale factor in your reality.
34:53
Because if there is no scale factor, then it's
34:56
the artist hand is niche.
34:57
Yes.
34:58
Very.
34:58
That niche for me is 5% of all the patients.
35:01
Yeah.
35:02
What comes a bit to my mind is the quote from Jensen Wg the CEO from
35:06
Nvidia that says, look, it's not about AI or the human, but it's,
35:09
what the human can do with the ai.
35:10
If you empower and I think it's here the same, if you have a strong technician,
35:14
it's not about the technician or the digital, it's about what a strong
35:17
technician can do with the digital and that what it enables him to do.
35:21
Yeah.
35:22
I think I think the best technicians they have the feeling in deep
35:25
inside of them that we evaluate.
35:28
Their work that there's, that artistic part is gonna go that's what's happening.
35:33
No, you agree, Robin?
35:34
Yeah I think I find the parallel.
35:37
Okay.
35:37
Always between analog photography and digital photography, because
35:41
the same process happened when we switch from film to digital camera.
35:46
And again if you just glimpse back to those time, it was the same thing
35:50
that the art will die and da, and, but the thing is, art never dies.
35:55
Art will just reincarnate in different forms in different ways.
35:59
Yes.
35:59
It's at the end.
36:00
Art is just shuffling the tools by which art becomes art, and the
36:05
artist is always gonna be the artist.
36:07
It's just I guess the normal cycle of fear.
36:11
And, yes.
36:12
Fear, courage in, in a in transitions, which are normal.
36:16
That's the one constant we have in our life and in reality that
36:20
there's always gonna be change, even when it's comfortable.
36:23
That is
36:23
just difficult sometimes to digest it.
36:25
Yeah.
36:25
Yeah.
36:26
And some characters, they will digest and adapt very fast, and others
36:30
will never and always complain.
36:31
That's,
36:32
that's a effect of life.
36:34
That's what the looks like.
36:35
And everybody can go with its own speed, I think.
36:38
It's a good comparison with the digital photography.
36:40
Today you can take tons of pictures very easily fast, but
36:43
that doesn't mean it's really no.
36:45
An art, it's still an artist.
36:47
Do a lot.
36:47
To be an artist today, you do a lot of mediocre.
36:49
Yeah.
36:50
Pictures right?
36:50
That, that you see around 3DNA, that was a big launch this year.
36:55
Or is we're in the middle of it.
36:57
Yeah.
36:57
I would say, and it made a huge fuss.
36:59
I remember the day that this went viral.
37:02
I, I haven't seen something like this from, for many
37:04
years, so it made a big impact.
37:06
Why was, and is 3DNA so important for.
37:10
SmileCloud to be a next step?
37:12
It is just, I think it's just a normal.
37:16
Evolution of of smile design, so to speak.
37:20
But it's just what 3DNA brings is a supervision for the people working.
37:27
Because what is really important I think, and lemme try to
37:31
simplify it and not go technical because the concept is important.
37:36
Nothing is difficult when you have clarity.
37:39
Okay.
37:40
And the clarity is something that you need to have before you execute anything.
37:45
And 3DNA with all the bells and whistles and all the things that
37:50
you know, you could potentially do, what it really gives you, it
37:53
gives you clarity and a supervision.
37:56
And a way to align this vision with all the others and the
38:01
fluid way to interact with other technologies and other softwares.
38:06
And I think this is almost like it's.
38:11
Mandatory.
38:12
I would say for a next big step in, in enabling I would say the next
38:17
generation of workflows, what it, what 3DNA does in one sentence.
38:22
It allows you to have that one design, like of the house.
38:24
It gives you that canvas.
38:27
Which is the umbrella of many other things and keeps it all in one.
38:33
And not only that, but people can interact in that, can review, iterate,
38:37
can review, can visualize, it has a patient facing side where you can
38:42
at any point render to the patient in a meaningful way for the patient.
38:46
Imagine with a smile moving and all of that.
38:49
So I think it, it does add.
38:54
It is.
38:55
It's funny because CDNAs, somehow, once you start using it.
38:59
It's a need you never knew you had, but after you try it, it's almost
39:04
impossible to go back to live without it.
39:06
Yeah.
39:07
It's this is what I heard many times, this couple of days.
39:10
I don't remember how I did before.
39:12
It's true, and I think that's true for SMILE Club in general.
39:16
I hear this comment very often because it's, it has so many layers of
39:19
benefit, like the common data sharing.
39:21
You can talk to each other, you can collaborate, the Yeah.
39:23
It starts with simple design.
39:24
Creates,
39:25
starts with simple things, and then you can get
39:27
more sophisticated by
39:29
time.
39:30
No, exactly.
39:30
I have to say what you did.
39:32
I'm first and foremost probably a patient, and I think what you really did also is.
39:36
To change the way patients are engaged.
39:38
Because for a patient it's very hard to envision what, a clinician will do.
39:43
With my oral situation it's almost impossible.
39:46
So I'm actually, it needs a lot of trust for a patient to trust that,
39:51
a clinician, that there will be a good final outcome because you
39:54
have no idea what this looks like.
39:56
And I think this is where you really.
39:58
Manage to take the patient with you on the journey from day one?
40:02
I think that's for the patient.
40:03
It's super powerful.
40:04
Yeah.
40:04
I think that's a very strong part.
40:06
Yeah.
40:07
I would like to talk a bit about mentoring.
40:10
Okay.
40:11
Because, I can tell you, I get a lot of feedbacks that, that you've been a
40:14
very important mentor to many people that, that are now, just yesterday
40:17
I spoke to Vincent and many others.
40:21
In your view, what makes a great mentor?
40:26
S
40:26
probably to be able to explain difficult things in a simple way.
40:33
Yeah.
40:33
And make things look simple without being ridiculous.
40:37
That's also probably the way you can handle people and the showing besides.
40:44
Interest in dentistry also interest in the human being or
40:48
the, yeah, let's let, I don't know.
40:51
How I have to explain is just something that grows organically.
40:54
I think it's some, not something you can enforce.
40:57
Mentorship is.
40:59
It's going both ways.
41:00
I,
41:01
No, and it's altruism.
41:03
This, I can tell you from my angle, it's, in order to be a mentor of somebody it's
41:09
always a product of being altruistic.
41:11
'Cause as a mentor, it's something you give.
41:13
Without asking anything in return.
41:16
That's what he did with me and with all the others.
41:19
And I think I never felt basically like
41:21
a mentor.
41:22
It's just people that I like, I'm starting to work with.
41:25
It's not about mentorship or like clinical education or, so
41:30
sometimes you meet people, you think they're nice people, first of all.
41:34
And then you are, if there are still good clinicians and you can give and take what?
41:38
No, that's, there's nothing, some, nothing that I can say that I, on purpose.
41:44
I did some It came like it is, yeah.
41:47
No, what I often is, that they describe you as someone that gives all this
41:51
knowledge, without any limitations.
41:53
And I think that's the altruism that you Yeah.
41:56
Described that you have the willingness also to to share all your expertise,
42:00
all the mistakes, all your experience you accumulated over the years.
42:04
And I think that's a very powerful, we also to share the friendship.
42:07
The friendship, I cannot stress it enough.
42:09
Yeah, and I agree.
42:10
I know what you mean.
42:11
Eric, it's as in a mentoring role, the mentor learns often as much as the
42:15
mentee because it makes you reflect on what you do, which you probably didn't
42:19
reflect before someone asked you, right?
42:21
I think for the moment I learned more from them than they learn from me.
42:24
Yeah, that's good.
42:25
Because he's it's different.
42:26
It's the same thing.
42:27
It's sick, psychic.
42:27
No.
42:28
Yeah,
42:29
I'm 66 now, so I'm, yeah, I have the experience, but they have much more
42:34
knowledge about technologies, about these kind of things, so I try to adapt.
42:37
That's it.
42:38
Yeah.
42:38
Cool.
42:39
We spoke a lot about also vision and the future, so I have to ask you guys as well,
42:44
if you look into the future of dentistry what's the next front that is ahead of us?
42:51
I think personally robotics.
42:53
Robotics, okay.
42:54
Yes.
42:55
In which field?
42:56
Surgical, restorative.
42:57
All of it.
42:58
Restorative, surgical.
42:59
I maybe florine won't agree, but I think when I was looking at your
43:04
lecture where you showed the two lines.
43:07
I
43:07
think we need to try to define a study like the robot doing it, or
43:11
on the model or the dentist doing it according to a design to make the prep.
43:16
The robot will always do it better than the hand of the dentist,
43:19
especially after seven hours or 24 hours, he will not be tired.
43:23
That's for sure, and he has no bad Monday, and precision is
43:26
just a question of time again.
43:27
It's like the milling machines 20 years ago or 10 years ago were
43:31
not as performant as they are now.
43:32
Not as precise as they are now.
43:34
But maybe Florin doesn't agree.
43:35
I don't know.
43:35
What is your
43:36
vision?
43:36
No I do agree.
43:38
I'm just gonna try to phrase it a bit better.
43:42
Not better, but different.
43:44
It's so if you look.
43:46
If you look at, let's say, CAD cam, okay, then you have the cad, which is
43:50
the design where obviously there will just be layers and layers of automation
43:55
with, more and more AI infused into it.
43:58
And that I think it's a good thing because it'll.
44:01
Again, give back the time investment of all these years, of all the people
44:06
that went into digital, because we have to understand that there was a
44:09
certain point where the investment of time for a dentist was ridiculous
44:14
for digital to do everything.
44:16
It's, you're not a dentist anymore, you're just, so I think that is gonna happen.
44:23
Second, I can see already that there is a significant shift in
44:27
the lab side on the printing.
44:30
So I see that basically the only thing that's gating printing
44:34
to take over is materials.
44:35
Once the materials are enabled, I see that the lab will shift
44:39
from reductive to additive.
44:42
And the other thing is the logical thing.
44:44
What will happen to cadcam and to reductive, it'll shift to robotics
44:49
naturally because that's how I see the, at least a logical evolution of things.
44:54
AI will be a layer that will infuse everything.
44:58
A lab will go more to additive and the reductive will the.
45:02
Will convert to robotics gradually.
45:05
First assisted probably because there will be, again, a huge cultural barrier.
45:09
But eventually it'll go further.
45:12
I think it's inevitable.
45:13
Yeah, I think I agree robotics will be a big topic and people are scared
45:16
naturally today by it, but it will not change dentistry in two years from now.
45:20
It'll be longer, a longer journey, but it starts now and it's a bit like, when
45:25
we saw the first intra scanner coming to the market in 2007, eight, nine.
45:31
They're not the same like today.
45:32
And it took us now almost 20 years to arrive at the point
45:35
within INO scans where we are.
45:36
So I think we also need to give this field a bit of time.
45:40
Yeah.
45:40
But there's a big difference between what was in 2007 and now, because the
45:45
speed of the acceleration of things is much, much faster, I think with the ai.
45:50
I fully agree.
45:51
This development will probably just take a third of the time not the same time.
45:54
Yeah.
45:54
And it'll actually be less r and d and more cultural
45:58
barrier and regulatory barrier
46:00
than
46:00
actual development
46:01
probably.
46:02
Yeah.
46:02
We, you experienced it.
46:04
Now I think this, the regulatory barrier and the, let's say
46:09
the how do I the barrier of European community of all these.
46:15
Check and double check and yeah.
46:16
And he it's gonna be tough on robotics for sure.
46:19
Bureaucratics and, yeah.
46:21
Or it will be the barrier for robotics also.
46:24
Yeah.
46:25
So again, me being a young dentist opening his own practice, what would
46:31
you tell me what to focus on for?
46:33
Where is the blue ocean?
46:35
Big future opportunity in the industry because I feel it's actually a super
46:38
exciting time to be in dentistry.
46:41
So what would you recommend me to focus on
46:45
Florin?
46:46
First, I would repeat myself, but I will tell you first document,
46:50
whatever you're gonna do.
46:51
And the second thing is find the one thing that you like.
46:57
Yes.
46:57
I think because the one thing that you like, you will naturally be good at.
47:02
And that will spiral in your favor.
47:04
Don't go against it's very important early in the career to get a win
47:09
mentally, psychologically, to start with something that you have like a
47:13
runway, because then you can shift once.
47:17
I think the first thing that you need to learn as a young dentist is how to win.
47:22
Yeah.
47:23
Know what I mean?
47:23
Yeah.
47:23
Just to get a few wins, because once you get a few wins, you get more energy in
47:28
your tank, and then your dreams become bigger, and then you can grow and grow.
47:32
But yeah, first document, because if you don't document, you'll have a career.
47:38
Probably thinking that you're much better than you really are,
47:42
which is not healthy and second.
47:44
Just find the easier wins
47:47
first.
47:48
That's what I would suggest.
47:49
I would also suggest to fo not to focus on money only.
47:52
Yeah.
47:53
Yeah, that's that's what I see.
47:55
That's a very nice recommendation.
47:57
Yeah.
47:57
And and I agree, do we, passion and not money is the focus and confidence comes
48:02
from doing and from succeeding, right?
48:04
Yeah.
48:05
I think this is where you build confidence and documentation is probably the key
48:08
for progress and for learning because it will also show you your mistakes.
48:12
Yeah.
48:13
Mistakes.
48:13
But if you don't document, you don't see mistakes.
48:15
It's
48:16
sometimes a very humbling experience to see own cases that you did take ago.
48:20
Speaking about humbling experiences what.
48:23
What makes you guys still nervous today?
48:25
If you have a patient, you're so experienced.
48:26
Is there still any situation that makes you nervous?
48:30
Yes.
48:31
The patient that should rather go to the psychiatrist than to the dentist.
48:36
Okay.
48:36
Yes.
48:36
That's the typical patient I really don't want to treat.
48:39
Ah, okay.
48:39
Otherwise, technically I think we are so evolved that we can basic, we can solve
48:46
many things, but the psych patients, that's the ones you need to avoid.
48:51
Because it's out of your control.
48:52
For completely out of control.
48:54
Yes.
48:54
I agree.
48:55
And the patients probably, if you're talk, because we're talking about
48:58
aesthetic dentistry the ones with the huge lip fillers and the Botox,
49:02
that's also for me, a no go sometimes.
49:05
No.
49:05
Yeah.
49:06
Yeah.
49:08
Now, I ask you guys a lot of questions and I, I could continue asking.
49:12
But we always want to give also the guests the opportunity to ask a
49:15
question to us, Strauman n. Question that you always wanted to ask.
49:20
Papa, you go first.
49:21
I think my question is simple because I was just talking about it.
49:25
Where are, where is from and when it comes to robotics now what?
49:29
That's a very good question.
49:30
That we are invested in, or we launched a dynamic navigation.
49:34
Yes.
49:34
System, which presents not robotics, but it's it's a step between
49:39
static navigation and robotics.
49:41
Yes, I would say it's probably fair to say, and yes, we are
49:44
very interested in this field.
49:45
We we observed this from a.
49:47
Technology perspective.
49:49
We look into a lot of companies, startups have a lot of conversation with experts.
49:54
So it's a field that we are very interested in.
49:56
Okay.
49:57
And we have the motivation also to help develop this field and also help
50:01
develop it in the right direction.
50:02
That, what we always are mindful about is that we are not making,
50:06
clinicians that are not experienced and that are maybe not reflected.
50:10
Make them with, make them great clinicians just by technology, but, have technology
50:14
that makes great clinicians more efficient and helps great clinicians to, to be, I
50:19
think that's clinicians point of view.
50:21
Yeah.
50:23
Florine,
50:26
what do you see right now as, as a challenge in the current reality.
50:31
In the current landscape of economical turmoil that is happening and all of that.
50:37
But is
50:40
Oh, that doubt.
50:41
That's a very good question actually.
50:42
That does a lot of uncertainty at the
50:44
moment.
50:44
Yeah, that's the problem.
50:46
How do you, man, how do you navigate uncertainty basically?
50:49
Even more difficult question,
50:51
how we navigate uncertainty.
50:53
The first thing, it's like similar what you said.
50:55
So first, by transparency and understanding, where is
50:59
the uncertainty coming from?
51:00
Because at the end you also need to bring it down to the root causes
51:02
and it helps you to understand probably how long this will be.
51:06
Yeah.
51:06
A topic like we see uncertainty at the moment in China, we see uncertainty.
51:10
In the US, Ukraine and so on.
51:13
So to really understand based on data and then, also have some
51:18
scenarios, how this will play out and take a cautious approach.
51:21
And what we do a lot today, we have to say a bit, globalization is a bit over.
51:27
We, we also have to hedge our risks as an example by having
51:31
different manufacturing sites.
51:33
It's the easiest example, different manufacturing sites in place in case some
51:36
things happens in the us, Brazil, China.
51:41
Switzerland, you will always have a let's say backup.
51:43
A backup.
51:45
And I think that makes you less, less, much less vulnerable if you
51:48
have all your bags in one basket.
51:50
Now you see it with the tariffs.
51:52
We are very happy to have, as an example, a production manufacturing
51:55
site in the US that makes us not at all vulnerable to, to, to the
51:58
terrorists, and I think that's, yes.
52:01
And we need to keep agile.
52:02
I think the key thing that I see is that we need to also make sure we are agile
52:06
and we talk a lot to our people 'cause they feel this uncertainty as well.
52:10
And we need to also give them the feeling that, it's going in a good direction.
52:13
We have under control and it is just problems that we have to solve.
52:17
In a way it's a very good question.
52:20
Very good answer also.
52:21
Yes.
52:22
Thank you guys.
52:22
So thank you.
52:23
Thanks a lot.
52:24
Thank I've learned a lot today.
52:26
I've learned that, great clinicians are often also, great and grounded
52:30
people that, that have a high aspiration and a sense for perfection
52:34
and, they go the extra mile.
52:35
That's what I see with you.
52:36
I think this sense for precision that there's no shortcut to it.
52:40
And I learned, that.
52:42
Mentation is important based on data and starting with the end in mind.
52:46
And surrounding yourself with a good team that can deliver to this.
52:49
So thanks a lot for sharing all your thoughts, the backgrounds
52:52
the visions and the future.
52:54
That's going to be a very interesting topic robotics.
52:57
So thanks Eric for being here and.
52:59
Thanks, Florin also for- Thank you.
53:00
Thank you for having us
53:01
thank you.
53:02
And to the listeners, thanks for listening in into this episode.
53:06
I hope you found it as inspirational as I found it.
53:09
Look out for new episodes and as usual, happy to interact with you.
53:13
Best done on our Instagram account, strong and global.
53:16
Please drop us the direct message on questions, ideas, critique ideas that
53:21
you have, and always happy to answer those and look out for the next episode.
53:25
So thanks a lot for listening in.