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Mishlei 25:25 - The Pleasure of Cold Water and Good News (Part 1) · The Mishlei Podcast

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, um Mishle uh twenty-five twenty-five.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: Mayim Karim Al Nefesh Ayefa Ushmuatova Meirat Mirchak.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: How would you translate it?
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_04: Cold water on a weary soul.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_04: And a um good say hearing, which I would probably try like probably news or something.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_04: Good news from uh distant land.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, from a distant land.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: So that's also how I would translate it.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and I saw though an interesting thing in both Sadigon and the Targum.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: So they say um Sadigun says uh his translation, Ayefa, uh whatever that Arabic word is, is same me'od, very thirsty.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: And that's how he always translates that term ayefa.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: Very interesting.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uham machlifim osaab machum ya'af umish tam shim ba la tash koach.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: So he says, people mix up uh the word ayyf with or uh yeah, ayef with yaaf, and they use it to mean weary.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: So he seems to be saying that that Kotak seems to be saying that it's a mistake to translate as weary.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then similarly, the Targum says, Maya Kareer al Nafsha Mishalhasa, and Mashalhasa means parched.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um so um so I I was kind of shocked about that because let's look at the English here.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh oh, sorry, I forgot to say uh we'll we'll add to add that in a little while.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, like Archwalk says cold water on a weary soul, so is good news from a distant land.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: Rehearse says, uh as cold water to a tired soul, so is good news from a far land.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: And then only alters as cold water to a famished throat, which is his one of his translation quirks is he almost always translates netfish as throat, which like I okay, I get like if you want to do that some places, but but it seems like a big stretch to say that in across the board.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um but uh cool water to a famished throat, good news from a distant land.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: So weary, so I you know the fact that that Koffeth thinks that it's a mistake to say weary as opposed to just you know it's an alternate translation.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I'm a little skeptical about.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, let's look at the BDB and see if uh what the BDB says.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um let's see, 2525, If I faint or weary, yeah.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um now you could say that you know that the two terms or that the you know the the the two translations come from the same concept, which is that when you're like dying of thirst, then you are weary, and so maybe it got mixed up there.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: But I I think I don't, you know, I would go so far as to say it's not a good translation.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll just add on a weary or um uh parsed, I think is good, parsed sold, and good news from a distant land.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so that is our possible.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: What are the questions?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_04: What is a um nephish aiefa?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: What is a nefish?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, what is a nefish aiefa?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I guess let's split that into two questions, right?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: What does nephish mean in this context?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and then what is a nefesh ayepha uh and what makes it that way?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, uh those might be two questions.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Isaac.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_04: Uh what is uh what's the effect being described on the first half?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what effect of Maimkarim uh on the Nefesh Ayefa is being described in the first um, what do you call it in the first uh in the first half?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, by the way, another advantage of translating it as parched is that if you translate a soul, then it's just one more step removed that you can't put, I mean, if it means soul, that just means like a living creature.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: So then you could say that um uh what do you call it?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: That uh you you could you could still talk about the effect of cold water on it, but it feels like it's gonna have to be one step removed.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh like for example, you know, the cold water goes on your body, and then that makes your soul feel relieved.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: But if Nefish, I mean, if you go with Alter, that uh Nefeshaiva is a famished throat, so then it's a direct like thing that happens.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like my nephew is describing like a very physical thing as opposed to some interaction between the physical and the psychological.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: Not that that's argument one way or the other, just uh uh note.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Isaac.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um what's the relationship between the two halves?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: What is the relationship uh between the two halves?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I'm not sure if there's uh any option besides other than just like A, so too is B.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right, especially because the Puzzle doesn't spell it out, right?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: So have we had uh recently, I know we've had a lot of Michaline, but I just want to see recently.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think it's been the same form, right?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: Just this and this.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it hasn't really spelled out, yeah, it hasn't really been spelling out the um the what the comparison is in in in each of them.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh Isaac.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my hand is up from before, but I'm sure I can have another question.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um what is a shmua tova?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what is what is the shmua tova?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um in other words, like what kind oops sorry, um what kind of shmua and in what sense is it tova?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: All right, I think we should also ask um why Davka from uh from a far-off land?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um why why wouldn't I guess like I guess you know, does this phenomenon not happen at all from uh you know uh news?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, local news.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh or does it happen and Eric's Mirach uh is just a uh like you know an extreme case?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Moja.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_05: Um I mean assuming to my question and that they had that there was far less capabilities of getting news from distant land, um wouldn't them you know old news from a distant land be good news or distance that meaning yes, you don't normally want bad news, but it shouldn't because it'd be very hard to get any news many.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_05: Wouldn't you just want old news and wouldn't that have like some satisfying quality on you?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: You're saying all just all all kinds of news.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, right, okay, yeah.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: Also, like why yeah, why not all news, especially given how difficult it was to get news then?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um I feel like those are I mean, we we'll we'll use our our usual questions, which is what is the practical decision-making advice?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and then who is the audience?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and yeah.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Anything else?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, is this is this telling us that like we should be a Myankarium or that or or or I guess that I guess that is the question, but what is it?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right, yeah, yeah.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: Just to a I mean, yeah, to elaborate on the who is the audience part also is um sorry, is this uh for the giver or the recipient of such news?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then obviously yeah, yeah, what is it telling you to do?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, I'm gonna say what's the practical decision making advice, especially given the fact that we can't really control, you know, when we hear such news.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's not like you can decide to, I mean, I guess you you can check up on someone from far away, but it sounds like a thing that just like happens to you.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think we are ready for ideas.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Isaac.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_04: I was I was gonna stay to you.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_04: The par the practical decision-making advice is to watch national news and maybe we'll get the maybe there'll be something good, some sort of good news, and then just yeah, that never happens.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's a little hard because all news that we hear internationally nowadays always need to be something.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is one of the ones that I feel like we have to um you know attempt to put ourselves in their shoes uh and and like separate out what are the what we associate to news about.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, Isaac.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: So um just for the first half, I want to talk about talk out what the experience is like drinking like drinking cold water when you're like really, really thirsty.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um my feeling is like that it's um it's like so completely satisfying, like um like at that moment you like that's that's all you want, and then you're just like um like fully like satisfied.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um I I don't see how that how Shwitova from a distant land does that.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um that's what I would say that experiences.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I hear that's good good setup.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I have my idea that I can say.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_06: Uh this is uh like I mentioned in the thumbs up.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I think it could be um exactly the opposite.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_06: Meaning it's not about getting total satisfaction.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_06: And I think the clue to that is from the words karim and tovah, meaning if someone's really ayefa, an effect ayefa, um, water will not be sufficient.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_06: They'll need water, food, maybe other uh other factors as well.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_06: But I think the point is saying is that since you have the cold water, it in the in the immediate gives you a feeling of rejuvenation, but it won't actually last.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_06: And so, too, because it's a shuatova coming from a far land, you get really excited over it.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_06: But I think the idea here is it's putting a check on these experiences uh and saying you shouldn't get overly joyful in them because they are uh fleeting slash not fully um they're they're not gonna fully satisfy you.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yeah.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: So this is interesting because this is the same quality that I pick up on in my idea, uh, but I take it in a uh positive application.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll talk this out.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so the experience is fleeting and doesn't permanently address anything.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um actually, maybe mine's maybe maybe mine's not permanent um not positive exactly, but but uh maybe it's the same thing.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: We'll we'll see.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: All right, so so two, um, the good news from a far land, a far-off land, will provide a fleeting um good feeling, uh, but that's not necessarily going to have any real long-term beneficial effects.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: Is that is that the takeaway here?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I got yeah, Isaac.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I disagree about the mushle.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think um I think when you're really thirsty and then you do drink, then it it does address the need, you know.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you slake your thirst.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um that's not a beneficial effect.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_06: Can I respond?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I mean I would agree it's beneficial, but I think the fact it doesn't say nefesh Simea, if it said a soul was thirsty, then I agree MineCarm would quench it.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_06: But I think Ayefa is a more general idea, and just having cold water is not going to uh satisfy the Ayefa.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, but I mean we we did see that there is a mach locus here about whether it means um uh Simea, you know, and and the Targum uh Sadigum and the Targum both say uh Simea.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: So so you know, I I think there's uh there is room for for reading ways.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, I uh some yeah.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: My approach is is based on it being Simea specifically, and I think I think it's really uh uh comes down to a factual machus.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, it's factual.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, okay.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I might be able to unify it, yeah, Moja.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_05: Um just some bojo.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_05: At the end they so boy.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_05: Good news is good news.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_05: Who cares if it doesn't make you who cares if it doesn't make you satisfied?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_05: Like someone whose child is like if a mother's child is one and they don't know about them, yeah, they're gonna be over drawing to like two other son is still okay.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_05: You know, when you come home for pays off, you're still gonna get them to clean up a zoo or something.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_05: But it's it's still good news.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so let me let me say my idea, and um, and I I am going back and forth about whether this is the same as Moshe's idea or whether, and just maybe a different application or or what.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: But the way I was thinking, so I I did not take it as uh thirsty because I didn't know that that was a translation here.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: I took it as weary soul.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: So the the facts of the Nefesh Ayefa is that like I'm picturing here, you know, you come home from a really, really exhausting day at work and you're not drinking the water, you're like splashing it on your face.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: So um, so on the one hand, there is tremendous relief because in that moment of like concentrated um pleasure, you do temporarily forget about the the the weariness that you have.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that and the thing is is that you know it didn't actually solve anything, but it can reinvigorate you to uh to like like um uh you know dilute some of the the burdensomeness of the of the um of the feeling, you know.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um but so so I was going with the same quality of it doesn't have any permanent effect like Moshe was saying.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: However, oh sorry, not however.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: So same thing with a Shmua Tova from a far-off land.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: So what's the difference between a close and a far-off land?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: So what what I was thinking is let's let's just use a uh a case here where like you know you you have uh let's say like I don't know, let's say like you have a sister who is pregnant, okay, and let's say you've seen like how much she's you know, she and her husband have struggled, and then she finally gets pregnant, and then there's all of this like you know, worry about how it's gonna turn out, and like, and then like you know, she's talking about finances now, suddenly, you know, there's a different picture, and then like medical complications, and then like mourning sickness and all this stuff, and finally she gets a baby.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: So you get the good news, but you're getting the good news in a within the gritty real context that kind of grounds it in in reality.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: But when you hear good news from a far-off land, you're just hearing the good thing in isolation, completely divorced from all of the particulars.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: And and it does allow for a certain like, I guess what I'm saying that the common quality is in both cases, there is a certain, I don't know, I don't know if fantasy is this is the right word, but there's a a detached from reality quality to the enjoyment that you get, where you splash water on your face and you momentarily forget about how bad a day it was at the office and and it's relief, but then it comes back afterwards.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, too, with the Shmuotova, you can like indulge temporarily in this, like, oh, it all worked out, but you're not getting any of the actual details that connect you to reality.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the phenomenon that it's pointing out, uh, according to me.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_06: So is that I feel like that is very similar to the Toba is that's not where I guess I think I agree that Air Str is the film sort of.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh okay, yeah, yeah, right, right.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: So let me just uh type this out here.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: So uh so my approach is um is just as cold water, sorry, cold water uh splashed on a weary person um provides temporary relief by making them momentarily forget uh all the woes, uh all their woes.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um but then they have to come back to real life.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: So too, um the difference between good news from close at hand uh and good news from a far-off land is that is that the the former is is grounded in in reality, um, and you take it in that context, uh, whereas the latter is detached from reality and provides uh reality and and the pleasure, you know, much of the pleasure comes from that detachment.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: So now the question will be what's the uh what's the practical application here?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um yeah, I don't know if this is practical application, but uh it does it it does like resemble this uh like an idea of like a fantasy people have the black and white business.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I had a conversation with my cousin who's talking about like in TV shows, and he's upset that there was like it's it's not clear anymore in modern TV shows and movies, that there's like a clear enemies of predicting everyone always have these nuances.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_05: But I think it's also having like I've seen a study like during um conversations, especially in regards to like Israel and uh you know uh whatever uh that people aren't willing to like even like try to discuss particulars, but they're always like why do we have to go that far?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they don't want to engage in these particular right, right.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so that that's that's a good I'm just gonna put this as an observation here first before we uh um so is that um that uh people like black and white categories, uh categories, um and are uh you know, and and you know, and and find uh find things spoiled by nuance.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, a good observation.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_06: I think there's two large possibilities with that.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_06: I think the more extreme one, I'm less sure of that, basically totally just not engage with these experiences, meaning don't splash bar in your face or just don't be affected by the news because you know that since there's a large amount of fantasy that that's containing these experiences, it's gonna lead to more frustration and lack of satisfaction.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_06: They'd also don't engage.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_06: Or I think I'm leaning more to this approach is to say that really you should engage, but in the proper fingerprint, realize its value and its limits, then you'll actually be able to get the good news and its time and uh the possible block.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, but you're not going to that was my approach.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when I said that this puzzle like lodged itself in my mind.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: I always have uh, like in the same way as like uh you know, for those who get the references, like like oxfilt has become a Michleik term that like like I think about a lot.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think about this experience a lot.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so just to uh just to spell it out and then I'll open on Isaac here is that um that this is not saying you should avoid uh this kind of pleasure, but rather uh you should partake of it, but recognize it for what it is.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um so, in other words, just like nobody pretends that splashing uh cold water on their face is going to solve all their problems, um uh you should not be uh taken in by the superficial fantasy of good news from a far-off land.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh rather you should remember that there are many you know uh gritty reality-based uh details that would sully that you know that pristine image.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and uh I guess like the thing is is and if the news is relevant practically, you should seek you should seek those out, seek those details out um to ground your your uh your perception.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um and if it's not, you should just remember the uh you know the uh uh superficial character of that news uh and and not let it lodge itself into your mind uh in that form.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I'm gonna go Isaac first in the motion.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Isaac.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_04: I think this is this is one of the like Like key problems with social media is it's specifically Chumutova Merit Smithok, you know.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_04: Where it's just taking you know the isolated snippets that people want to share and totally divorcing them from the context.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's a great point.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's funny because when I first taught this idea, this is before social media, so I didn't think about that example, but that is exactly and also my my experience of social media is not seems to not be what people complain about with social media, but like like people I I hear so often, like people go on their social media and like everyone's life is so like ideal.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, why is my why is my life so bad?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and then and then people have to be reminded that oh, it's a very manufactured um or manicured uh like edited form of like all the best stuff, but like I don't know, I mean I just don't have friends like that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, the issue is especially with your feet and what they cater your feedback is based on what you really want.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_06: I think part of the problem with a lot of people is that really they are um like their ideals are these type of people.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_06: So meaning regardless of if these people have been having these lives or not, in uh in uh due to the right nature, these lives are gonna be very frustrating and not uh happy.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, that that that that's that's a good point also.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, Mosha.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_05: Just in mind, because even like Judaism's um uh Judaism's method to try to overcome this during weddings, but it's like smash the glass.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's a good point also.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's like a happy thing.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right, that's a good point.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's a good uh uh uh this is a relevant min hog uh is smashing the glass um what it's supposed to do.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_04: I think so maybe um I uh um I would take this idea to to also explain um the reading where it's thirsty soul.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's um I say it's um different case where um um we're not like you know weary and trying to escape by by doing it, but just just get in the uh the like I'd say it when you're enjoying it in like a like a healthy way.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah and then um because you're not you know you're not gonna you're not having to experience the gritty details, it's just purely like enjoyable and satisfying, and there isn't like you don't you don't have to have like the there's no like you know downsides with it.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, are are is this a different application of the idea, or you're just trying to read this idea into the uh the thirsty reading?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm oh I'm trying to I mean I'm good I'd say I'm trying to read it to the thirsty reading, but yeah, um but more like but I'd say another direction to going going from what I think the thirsty reading, what that would mean, and I think but I think it comes out to the same idea.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, but a different case.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um one question we did not ask is um is this connected to the surrounding psukim?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because that might be a uh uh give us direction in terms of uh like where to take the mushroom.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just review really quickly here.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: So we had uh do we have a recent paragraph break?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we did.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we had um raiv sonakha ha kilahu lachem vi im tama tame hashkehumaim kikalamakha ar semmi shalim lah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: So that's about revenge.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: And ruch tafun to pologashem ufanim nizamim lash and saser.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's the uh north wind uh either removes or produces rain, uh, but and an angry face, uh secret language.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, right.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: So that was something about lash and hara or anger or or uh you know a miscommunication.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Tov shaves upinas gogm is mediani ubescha ver uh better to dwell on the corner of a roof than with a woman of contentiousness in a house of friends.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then we have ours.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then next one is another water-based one.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: It looks like Mayan Nirpasum Akor Moshkas, Sadig Matlivne Rosha.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, all right, fine.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know if that's gonna help, but just wanted to read it in case it spurs any ideas.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, let's look at Mitsudas David.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I'm gonna go ahead and just do it here.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, you can guess by the way where Rashi's gonna go.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think Rashi's gonna go?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: I haven't seen this, but I'm just guessing.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and Shmo'a.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: Shmoa Tova.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: I assume it's torch ball pack.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right, right.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean we even use that term of shmua, you know?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, so it's funny.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: All right, anyway.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: So Maim Karim.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Shne Elu Hana us.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: I I wonder if that's Hanaos.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: Let me just look at the Matus W here.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, sorry.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: Shne Elu, Hana'as and Shave.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: These two, their enjoyment is equal or or yeah, equal.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Vihim Maim Karim uh Hanishpachim annef haifa mirov ha com.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so that's why maybe where I got my uh factual shot from is that you're you're really weary uh from the heat, it's interesting, not not from uh work, and then you get cool water splash on you.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: Shmutova habad la adamircha.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so does it make any difference if it is uh because that also kind of like the thirst does provide relief.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's not like I was saying where you are If because of like life troubles.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: This is ayf because of uh of the heat, and this cools you off.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: So is there a different idea here?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it is funny because it unlike I mean the difference between the thirst and the heat is that it's not like the thirst you need water, you know, like that's something uh an actual bodily need.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: Heat is just discomfort, and this removes the discomfort in a pleasurable way.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, so maybe that's uh that's an idea there that that might be one of I mean this might be related here, that Shmua Tova is a uh people think of it as a positive thing, but part of the pleasure of it is it removes you from the discomforts of your life.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so that's a slightly different idea here.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: Let me let me talk this out here.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: Is um so Mitsudus David, uh Mitsudas David, and this is another social media application here.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: So Mitsudis David says, um, so the the fact uh you know the facts in the first half uh are sorry, sorry, I guess the the situation, the first half is talking about when you cool off uh after being weary from heat.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so the question is, what is the idea?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: So people think of Shmuatova um as a positive pleasure, uh, but in reality, um it uh much of the pleasure uh comes from the removal of the negative, namely um hearing good news from someone else or about about someone else um uh makes you forget your own troubles.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so this is similar to the approach that I was taking, but I think the uh the idea here is that that uh new application is um, you know, uh there's there's an escapist uh element uh in being addicted to good news, you know.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like um, I don't know, do they still have the site uh only SimCuz?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: Used to be the site that like would it was just like announcements of like engagements uh and like pictures of like the engaged couple, you know?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: I have a lot of it oh fine, yeah, yeah, right.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: That kind of thing.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like I feel like that's a type of thing where um where I'm sure there are people who just get addicted to like, you know, like them, there are people the normal use, I think, is you're supposed to like, that's where you put your stuff and you send your friends and family, you know.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm sure there are people who follow these things on like social media and they like indulge in this like pleasure of of constant like simklas about people's relationships, you know.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: But that could the thing is is like if you're in other words, uh if you're using this pleasure to uh to escape your own issues, that can be dangerous.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Isaac.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_04: I think another example is like I I found this with like looking at funny memes.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like the first you know, the first several are really, really enjoyable.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_04: After a certain point, it's just like like it's not enjoyable anymore, even though that they haven't gotten less funny, just because like you know, the enjoyment is really the like the escapism.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_04: That's interesting.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm just trying to think if that's the same idea or a different idea.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm saying a slightly different idea.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm saying, like, I'll give you another example of this, is um is uh someone told me about this recently.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: And and I don't you know those weird things where like someone tells you about something and then it suddenly starts coming up on your feed, you know, like I don't know how this happened, but there's this guy, Caleb something, who goes around in New York City and like asks to be led into people's uh like rich apartments, you know, and like he like he like they give him a tour and stuff like that.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: I can see how a person would would I watch a couple of these videos, I I can see how a person would find that and be like, oh, what a what a uh interesting you know insight into people who like have wealth in other apartments, but like on the surface, or not on the surface, deep down, a lot of the pleasure comes from this comparison between where these people live and like where you live, and it can breed dissatisfaction with what you're experiencing in your own life.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: What you're describing, Isaac, is much more of like a I mean, I mean, it it could be relevant, but like I was thinking about it more as a like a hedonic treadmill type effect where where like the pleasure just wears off after a while because you can only escape yourself so long.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm talking about Davka like comparing your situation to to uh to the to the situation.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yeah, the good news.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean I'm not invalidating the idea, I'm just saying it's slightly different.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, let's look at let's look at Rashi.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I'm just curious to see.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: I will be very surprised if he doesn't say this.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: Nope, he doesn't take it that way.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: All right, so he says, Um, cold waters are made to restore.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think Lahashiv here is like from the word of uh um uh yeah, yeah, right, right.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but there's uh um I think this is an ambiguity that comes up a lot in Tanath, like when we say um Nafsi Yeshov.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um is that a restored soul or a returned soul?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, he's saying it's restored.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Shmutov Erit Merchag, Afhi Shavalam, it's the same as that.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: She came up to him, Yaakov, Yaakov's spirit wasn't live.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: And now that's an interesting one because that is Shmutova from Erit Rakoka, but it really does make a big difference in his life, like knowing that uh his son is still alive, you know.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, according to this is the tradition that the Shwutova is equivalent to the Mind Karim, like Afhi Shavelhim.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: It sounds like he's saying that, yeah.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's weird.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like you would think that that's uh yeah, I don't know.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: All right, let's do the Miri.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh no, mind karim al nefesh ayefa ushmota miras mirha hanigla boheara musaris.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: So the overt meaning, the explicit meaning is uh musur advice.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: Lehov ha shuk afshlob fanov.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: So it is to love the person who is dear.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think is a person who is dear, even though he's not before you, meaning he's not like living in the same uh uh place.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: Vishkor avasotamid, and remember his love constantly.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: Don't give up, uh, don't be miyash.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't give up hope is not a good translation here, but don't like um uh like yeah, like like basically like forget about him, don't forget about him.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um but but the more distant he is, or as long as he is distant, Yosif Yivakchehu od, you should seek him out more.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: And he should uh in you know, investigate his his you know his affairs until he receives good news from it.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's very interesting advice.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it will be like Maim Karim on Nef Ayefa Shahaf because someone who is exhausted, due to the uh boiling of his nature, t same umiachel umisave lamaim karim l'abostamo.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: He is uh thirsty and he yearns and desires cold waters to quench his thirst.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: So to the person who is koshik for someone, miyachel shimuas chishuko me erismerch uh awaits hearing uh news about his beloved from the far-off land, Lahashkit Hamayas Lavavo, to um to quench the uh the yearning of his heart.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_03: So, what what's the decision-making case here?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: Is it just like you have a friend or like a relative who like is far off and it's saying like you should keep up with them and follow their news?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_05: Like keeping up with the system.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean you know what's interesting.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: I was thinking about this um uh recently, specifically with David Lichter, because um David and I used to talk a lot about like you know, like I used to hear a lot about what's going on in his life, and then he went, he made Aliyah, and then I only saw him uh right before Pesock.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it was like I asked him, like, what's going on?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: And like it was a huge info dump.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: And like I was happy for him, but it was just like a a very, very like concentrated, rapid info dump of like all the stuff that's been happening for the last like you know, two-thirds of a year.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it is a different experience than someone you know, I have friends who I keep up with every week, you know, who I you know, I'm I'm up to date on their on their news about so like that's the vibe I'm getting here, but I don't know what like when he says hey are musaris, like what's the advice?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like, is this like who in other words, like I feel like most people either do this naturally, like they they inquire into uh, you know, I actually should go back.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: This was harder back then, like we said, right?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: You can't just like call someone up, you know, you have to like maintain an active correspondence, and even that is not always possible.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: But is this just like don't let good relationships lapse and continue to inquire about their affairs and you'll sustain like the pleasure of the of the of the relationship?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm not getting like the practical like oomph, like it doesn't sound like a very mishlayc thing.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, going back uh when you mentioned uh mom, right?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like uh or someone's gonna you know, like if a mother sends a son away or whatever, you know, like to some other college or some other state or whatever, you know, like she's gonna have this experience of like wanting to know his welfare.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: And and so is this advising her that she should inquire into it?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like I just I feel like I'm not finding like a landing spot for this uh advice.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: Again, like she's gonna do that anyway.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: And it does not sound like he's talking to the person who's the the who the news is about.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: It sounds like he's talking to the person who's like yearning for the news.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, let's let's yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_06: It's not for the person of the relationship, but it's for your like psychological state.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_06: Because the last year says Lahashtika Maya's yeah, right.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_06: It's like it's like you think if you if you're like invested in a relationship, yeah, so if you don't pursue it, you're just going to have uncertainty about it and you really have a desire like to quench your thirst and to uh engage in it.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_06: And saying that if you have this close relationship and you don't engage in it, then it's gonna cause problems because you're just gonna have like this not being uh right, right.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_06: It does sound like you're saying that like you need to engage strong emotional relationships, right?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_06: Or else you're just gonna have like um unclear um outcomes.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: So this is advice for someone who who has a strong relationship, uh, but then the other party moves away.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um so the the one who remains will have this yearning for um for that, you know, that um I mean it really is yearning for the relationship itself, right?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: For that connection.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and the only way, or the I don't know, the only way, but but the uh and Shlomo is advising you to uh to quench that need by inquiring uh about their their welfare.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh and like failure to do so will leave you in a state of um of like you know discontent.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean it's it is interesting.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mentioned uh uh on Friday night that like you know, one of the joys about teaching is uh I mean I guess not all teaching jobs, but main teaching jobs is is developing these like year years long relationships with students.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I used to not reach out to students after high school like proactively because I taught in an all-girls school and there was something a little that struck me as a little creepy about like, you know, like uh like obviously if I if I saw one of them, then I would ask, oh, how's it going?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: But like I'm not gonna like practically reach out.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but then things changed uh when I had a with the class of 2019 where I had a relationship with the entire class and we kept in touch, and I felt like that enabled me to have like a recognized means of like like keeping up with with with with with the entire class, you know, and same thing here, like when I have a student who like graduates and then goes away, then I do it, it is a see, I I don't have hmm, I mean, occasionally I'll have this experience of like the discontent that I need to fulfill, but really it's more of a positive thing of just like keeping the relationship, you know.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: It you can't, this is interesting, you can't create a relationship this way, but you can sustain one, and it's very relatively easy to sustain one this way just by inquiring into the welfare every once in a while.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, that's part of the finish that you might think that okay, I have a close relationship with this person, and when they're nearby, so I can hang out with them and really join their company.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_06: But when they're far away, so back then I can't actually hang out with them.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_06: So what how much benefit is inquiring in their welfare?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, that's good.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_06: I think that's it.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_06: That's the point that your your investment of energies and trying to find out how are they doing, that will uh satisfy you.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, good, that's good, because you can't hang out with them uh anymore.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh sorry, any anymore.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh Kamash Milan, um uh through this method, uh you can keep up that relationship and satisfy uh the the need for it, uh albeit you know, not uh not in the same way.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that that that's good.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: That that's that's kind of the advice I was looking for here.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, let's just read the the Derek Nistri even if we don't get to work on it today.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so that's the it he calls the Torah and its foundations, its philosophical foundations, and it's I think I assume he means Pinos of Pinosa is the ones you could establish through philosophy, and Torios are the ones that you only get through uh through Nivua or Masora.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: Shmu Tova Lios kol in a sunim lvavos vidir kabbalah.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: So that all of them the all of the matters are given over to minds through way of the uh the kabbalah through receiving it uh in the masora.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: Even the things that can be analyzed, uh like proof of God.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Kora Tovah Klomar shlema.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: So tovah is being called tovah because it's complete.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: Umunos chaser mimena.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's nothing in Torah regarding immunos that is lacking from it.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: Lobashlemus ha midos, bah maalos, bahahizar me have gone, neither in the perfection of midos and virtues and being careful about their opposites, ha sichlios, nor in uh intellectual perfection.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the uh things that you arrive at through yun and then the the things that are received.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: Vamra mere's mirchak, kihasagasad varim ha yunyim shaba, uh it says from a far-off land, because the apprehension of the philosophical matters in it, Baha Sagasam Laadam Akhar Habdamos Aruchos Vataros, they come to a person, person only grasp them after lengthy prefaces and introductions.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then the learning of many preparatory chachmos.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: Vamra Shahushek, Ladas Shmuatova M Eritzmercha says someone who yearns to know Shmuatova from in Eritzmerchak, Rotalamar Ladas and Hamuskalim Shaba Der Khaqira, meaning you want to know something, the rational principles in it through way of uh investigation and eun yimsa minukas ms minuchashke, he will find a uh a tranquility or a resting of uh true rest and uh uh real tranquility and and peace.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like someone who's weary who finds uh cool water.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: It compares the Keshek for Kachma like the weariness of the soul, but Peace Rav Vus me menu lamaim karim and then quenching your thirst from it to like hold water.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: Lerov are vusam la ayev, due to the great pleasure to the person who's uh weary.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: Mitsuraf el heosatora me dumis lamaim lasibos rabos.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, in addition to the fact that the tora is compared to water for other reasons, uh, many reasons.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: Ashir Kvar his baruk stasim, like we've explained a couple of them.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: So the question is what's the point?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_06: Uh to engage in the shimotoba, that complete area of the benefit six.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_06: Uh, but it seems the khiddish is this, like give it to the new class and it's like a satisfaction you get in like the areus he says.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that is interesting.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I feel like this is talking a little bit against people who think that that uh all you need is just the the MSora.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: So it's true that all you need to access the truths is the is the MSora, but you are missing out on a dimension of Arevus, which is coming from a real need of the mind.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like the mind wants to know a rational basis for everything.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're not addressing that, you may have the truths, but you're not satisfying that that weariness.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that's an interesting argument for why you should supplement uh Torah with uh with philosophy.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's good.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I actually did a post-up on Monday night that complements this, but maybe we'll combine them tomorrow.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: All right, good, good, uh, good puzzle.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_03: All right, see you tomorrow.