Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #964 What to Do About Mean Girls

Transcript

#964 What to Do About Mean Girls · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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  Speaker 2: on answers Now. So one of the things that I've
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  Speaker 2: always talked to our kids when they're really really struggling
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  Speaker 2: with friends. I can promise you that you are not
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  Speaker 2: the only person who feels like this.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm trust to be the parenting expert. You're
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  Speaker 1: blowing me away today.
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  Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show.
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  Speaker 1: My mum and dad. Every Tuesday on the Happy Families podcast,
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  Speaker 1: we dive into our inbox podcasts at happy families dot
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  Speaker 1: com dot au and we carefully read your questions to
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  Speaker 1: see who we can help and how when it comes
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  Speaker 1: to the art and science of raising children. Hi, my
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  Speaker 1: name's doctor Justin Course and I'm here with Kylie, my
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  Speaker 1: wife and mum to our six daughters and Kylie. Today
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  Speaker 1: we have a question that's come through from Karen, who says,
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  Speaker 1: my ten year old daughter is having ongoing issues with
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  Speaker 1: her friends at school. Does this sound like a ten
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  Speaker 1: year old girl thing?
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  Speaker 2: I was just thinking, I don't think we've ever actually
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  Speaker 2: not had one of our children dealing with this. It's
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  Speaker 2: such a challenge.
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  Speaker 1: It really is. So this is what she says, and
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  Speaker 1: what I might do, because normally I read the whole
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  Speaker 1: email and then we talk about it all at once.
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  Speaker 1: What I'm thinking it might be easier to do with
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  Speaker 1: this one is to actually sort of pull it apart
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  Speaker 1: as we go, line by line and discuss different solutions
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  Speaker 1: and different realities as we go. So she says she
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  Speaker 1: feels her friends are being mean to her. They don't
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  Speaker 1: include her in the play, they single her out, or
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  Speaker 1: they say she doesn't have cool stuff. And when I
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  Speaker 1: read that, I thought of all the scientific research that
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  Speaker 1: shows the way that boys and girls play differently. We
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  Speaker 1: know that natal males and natal females just they interact
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  Speaker 1: in ways that are not the same. There's a fascinating
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  Speaker 1: study that I came across just recently where some researchers
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  Speaker 1: got a whole bunch of boys. There were eighty kids
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  Speaker 1: in total, and a whole bunch of girls born boy
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  Speaker 1: born girl, forty of each preschoolers aged four to five,
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  Speaker 1: and divide them into either a boys group or a
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  Speaker 1: girl's group. And then they asked them to watch a
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  Speaker 1: cartoon through a viewfinder. So you remember those old fashioned
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  Speaker 1: viewfinders where you put your eyes to it, then you
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  Speaker 1: click the click click button, and it would take you
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  Speaker 1: to the next scene and the next scene, and it
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  Speaker 1: was kind of like watching a slow motion animated cartoon.
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  Speaker 1: Just yeah, one of those kinds of things, Except the
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  Speaker 1: way the researchers rigged this up really clever. They got
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  Speaker 1: kids into groups of four. They said, only one person
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  Speaker 1: can look through the viewfinder at a time, and they
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  Speaker 1: need your help. So this has turned into a cooperative process.
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  Speaker 1: One person had to turn the crank to make the
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  Speaker 1: viewfinder work, and the other person had to press the
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  Speaker 1: switch for the light and hold that down so that
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  Speaker 1: it would work. Okay, So it was this really technologically
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  Speaker 1: the complicated thing that needed a whole lot of manipulation.
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  Speaker 1: You've got one kid watching, one kid cranking the thing,
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  Speaker 1: and one kid pushing the switch for the light, all
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  Speaker 1: at opposite ends of the room of it. Hang on,
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  Speaker 1: there's four kids in the group. You know what. The
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  Speaker 1: fourth kid had to do nothing. They had to hang
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  Speaker 1: and wait for their turn to do something. And each
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  Speaker 1: of the four kids was going to get a chance
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  Speaker 1: at doing everything. But their preschoolers, they're four and five
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  Speaker 1: years old, and they've got to figure out how they're
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  Speaker 1: going to do it together. How they're going to cooperate
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  Speaker 1: so that everyone gets a turn. And what the research
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  Speaker 1: has found was that overall, the boys enjoyed it more
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  Speaker 1: than the girls. Just measuring how the kids were enjoying
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  Speaker 1: the process, boys had a lot more fun. They laughed more,
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  Speaker 1: they smiled more, and get this, they hit each other more.
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  Speaker 1: So they're having more fun. They're laughing and they're smiling,
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  Speaker 1: and they're hitting each other more because they want to
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  Speaker 1: be the one that gets to watch it now or
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  Speaker 1: the one who gets to watch it next. In other words,
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  Speaker 1: they used their bodies a whole lot more than the girls.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, the researchers found that the boys pushed, pulled,
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  Speaker 1: or hit their partners about six times more than the
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  Speaker 1: girls did. Right, Like, this is a really physical interaction,
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  Speaker 1: but they had more fun. The girls were no less competitive,
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  Speaker 1: they were just a lot less direct. The girls made
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  Speaker 1: many more unfriendly commands, and they were also much more
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  Speaker 1: likely to be collaborative and share, whereas the boys weren't
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  Speaker 1: collaborative and sharing. It was kind of just a competition,
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  Speaker 1: like who' I got to destroy to get to do
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  Speaker 1: this thing? So well, the boys used their bodies, the
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  Speaker 1: girls used their words and there's all this research that's
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  Speaker 1: been around for so long that shows this relational versus physical,
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  Speaker 1: male versus felt sorry female versus male thing. And that's
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  Speaker 1: what I get when I read this email, this first line.
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  Speaker 1: Her friends mean to it. They don't include her in
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  Speaker 1: the play, they single her out, they say she doesn't
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  Speaker 1: have cool stuff. I mean, this is all status and
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  Speaker 1: hierarchy and relationships and.
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  Speaker 2: Consider start breaking me think that, oh ten, well, I
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  Speaker 2: mean we're already dealing with this.
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  Speaker 1: Research shows that starts at four and five, So by ten,
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  Speaker 1: this is where the comparison and the competition really starts
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  Speaker 1: to ramp up as we lead into puberty. So Karen says,
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  Speaker 1: my daughter has a sensitive soul, so everything seems to
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  Speaker 1: hurt her. And I've noticed she gives her friends too
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  Speaker 1: much value. Now I don't know about you, but I
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  Speaker 1: read that line and I thought, oh, my goodness. Friends
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  Speaker 1: are oxygen to all of our kids, but especially to
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  Speaker 1: our girls, and this idea of giving them value. I
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  Speaker 1: just how hard is it for even for us as
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  Speaker 1: adults to feel like we're enough. How hard is it
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  Speaker 1: for a ten year old who's just discovering competition in comparison,
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  Speaker 1: how they're supposed to know themselves and know their value
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  Speaker 1: on their own, they just give all their value away.
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  Speaker 1: They empower everyone else to allow them to feel things
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  Speaker 1: like that.
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  Speaker 2: So and that's when I think the village is so important,
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  Speaker 2: you know, surrounding our kids with people who just love them,
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  Speaker 2: absolutely love them, and help them to see the contrast
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  Speaker 2: as they go throughout their day. You know, how do
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  Speaker 2: you feel like when you're in this space with these people,
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  Speaker 2: how do they make you feel comparatively to how these
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  Speaker 2: people are making you feel. It was interesting. We had
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  Speaker 2: a group of girls in our home at one point,
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  Speaker 2: and I was blown away at the amount of manipulation
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  Speaker 2: I was witnessing by one girl. In particular, My daughter
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  Speaker 2: was oblivious. Our daughter was oblivious, speaking just she was
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  Speaker 2: completely oblivious to it. I had never seen it in
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  Speaker 2: such like, just absolute vivid contrast to everyday conversations. And
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  Speaker 2: we talked about it the next day and I asked
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  Speaker 2: her if she noticed anything, because it was a really
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  Speaker 2: emotionally challenging activity to have them all there, and she said, no, no,
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  Speaker 2: it's not like that anyway. Over the next few months,
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  Speaker 2: she started to kind of open her eyes and see
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  Speaker 2: things in a slightly different way, and she recognized over
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  Speaker 2: time that these people actually didn't make her feel good.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, Do I get to be myself when I'm
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  Speaker 1: around these people or do I have to keep on
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  Speaker 1: trying to prove that I'm one of them.
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  Speaker 2: Implicate somebody else's feelings to be able to be a
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  Speaker 2: part of it and feel like you're a part of
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  Speaker 2: the whole. So I think that one of the things
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  Speaker 2: that I have found just so empowering for our kids
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  Speaker 2: is just really working on the village outside of school
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  Speaker 2: and surrounding them with people who.
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  Speaker 1: Just can love on them, whether it's the local surf
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  Speaker 1: club or the sporting groupol neighbor, Yeah, the neighbors.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, our nine year old has fallen in love with
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  Speaker 2: our neighbors. They're in their seventies. It's to her, they're
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  Speaker 2: like her best friends. And when she disappears, I said,
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  Speaker 2: where have you been? I was just going to visit
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  Speaker 2: Diane and Chris. And she goes and plays with the
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  Speaker 2: cat and the dog and gets a little tree and
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  Speaker 2: she just thinks it's the best.
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  Speaker 1: So let's move on with bo Karen also had to say,
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  Speaker 1: she said, we've just moved location six months ago, and
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  Speaker 1: the excitement of the new school has now died and
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  Speaker 1: the issues are building up. She doesn't want to go
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  Speaker 1: to school now. She had similar issues in the old school.
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  Speaker 1: So now I know the problem lies with my daughter.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's tricky, Well I read that.
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  Speaker 1: I think that we need to challenge that assumption.
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  Speaker 2: I agree, because we think that because we've been in
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  Speaker 2: one place for six months, that the effects of the
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  Speaker 2: move have well and truly passed now. And yet, just
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  Speaker 2: like she's acknowledged the you know, the glitter and the
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  Speaker 2: sparkle of the new school and everything has started to
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  Speaker 2: wear off, and you're no longer the novelty in the room.
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  Speaker 2: Because you're no longer than new kids. Somebody else has
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  Speaker 2: taken your place.
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  Speaker 1: If the relationships haven't cemented, they're not even close. It
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  Speaker 1: takes years sometimes, Yeah, sometimes things really do just click,
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  Speaker 1: But quite often it takes a really long time for
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  Speaker 1: these relationships too evolved. When I heard that, I just thought,
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  Speaker 1: when we say something like so, I now know the
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  Speaker 1: problem was with my daughter, what we're unintentionally doing is
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  Speaker 1: inferring that our child is the problem, and the child
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  Speaker 1: is not the problem. The child is never the problem. Rather,
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  Speaker 1: there is a problem to be solved, and our child
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  Speaker 1: needs to be part of the problem solving process.
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  Speaker 2: But nor are the other children, right, Oh, of course
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  Speaker 2: you know what I mean. We can acknowledge that our
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  Speaker 2: child's the problem or they're the problem, but the reality
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  Speaker 2: is neither are. Yeah, we've got a situation where we've
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  Speaker 2: got two kids trying to navigate or more kids trying
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  Speaker 2: to navigate a really tricky situation and space and time.
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  Speaker 2: They don't have the maturity, they don't have the understanding
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  Speaker 2: half the time, and so neither one of them the problem.
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  Speaker 1: So as we've worked through this email from Karen, we've
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  Speaker 1: already provided a handful of ideas and solutions. But what
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  Speaker 1: we need to talk about is the last thing that
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  Speaker 1: she's mentioned, because this is where we really dive into
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  Speaker 1: the solution frame. Karen says, how do I support her?
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  Speaker 1: I follow you tips, I provide a loving home so
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  Speaker 1: she feels she belongs. I listen. I don't try to
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  Speaker 1: fix although sometimes I still try to by telling you
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  Speaker 1: to find new friends. How do I help her to
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  Speaker 1: build her resilience and to learn that friends are not everything,
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  Speaker 1: especially if they don't bring joy. Let's talk about how
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  Speaker 1: we can help our kids if they're struggling with friendships.
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  Speaker 1: When I talk to teachers in schools and I say,
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  Speaker 1: what are some of the most common challenges that you're
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  Speaker 1: dealing with, friendships are at the top of the list
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  Speaker 1: all the time, and particularly when it comes to girls.
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  Speaker 1: I've got a couple of things jotted down that I
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  Speaker 1: think can be useful solutions to help Karen and her
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  Speaker 1: ten year old daughter and any parent whose children are
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  Speaker 1: struggling with friendship issues. We've dealt with this endlessly, ongoingly
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  Speaker 1: with all of our six daughters at one point or another,
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  Speaker 1: as they've struggled with friendships.
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  Speaker 2: Our kids need to know they have options. They need
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  Speaker 2: to know that they actually have a level of autonomy
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  Speaker 2: and control over what's going on.
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  Speaker 1: I love this. I've been in so many conversations where
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  Speaker 1: I've gone to that very word optionality equals resilience. Like
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  Speaker 1: when you feel like you have no options, that's where
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  Speaker 1: helplessness comes in. That's where hopelessness comes in. But if
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  Speaker 1: you're in a situation that feels helpless and hopeless and
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  Speaker 1: then you discover, hang on, I do have an option
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  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, that's where you see, that's what
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  Speaker 1: resilience is. It's about saying I have no pathways, I'll
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  Speaker 1: hang on. I can create one. I can knock down
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  Speaker 1: these trees over here and smash through. I know that's
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  Speaker 1: not environmentally friendly, but I can knock down these trees
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  Speaker 1: and blaze my own trail. That's resilience, it's having I
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  Speaker 1: just I love that you said that, and I love
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  Speaker 1: how clear you were and it Optionality is key, and
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  Speaker 1: this is what happens with the ten year old who
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  Speaker 1: feels like they have no friends. All too often they
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  Speaker 1: feel like they have no options.
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  Speaker 2: What's amazing is that they're surrounded by people, but all
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  Speaker 2: they can see is the one or two or three
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  Speaker 2: or four people in their friend group that they want
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  Speaker 2: to be friends with at all costs.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I've just had an insight and you've this.
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  Speaker 1: It was not pre planned. It's literally just crashed into
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  Speaker 1: my head right now. I've never pretended that high school
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  Speaker 1: was a good experience for me. It was awful. And
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  Speaker 1: one of the main reasons that it was awful was
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  Speaker 1: I felt like I didn't have any friends. As I've
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  Speaker 1: reflected on this, and I've had this thought a few times,
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  Speaker 1: but never so clearly is in the context that you've
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  Speaker 1: just provided it. My biggest problem when I was in
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  Speaker 1: high school was I wanted to be one of the
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  Speaker 1: cool kids, and I desperately sought the cool kids' approval
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  Speaker 1: and I never ever got it because they knew that
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  Speaker 1: I so badly wanted to be one of them, and
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  Speaker 1: they knew that therefore they could treat me however they wanted.
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  Speaker 1: And I was never going to be one of them.
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  Speaker 1: But there were other people who I'm sure I could
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  Speaker 1: have been friends with, but I never wanted to be
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  Speaker 1: their friend. I just wanted to be a cool kid.
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  Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying that's what's happening with this ten year.
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  Speaker 2: Old, but we have blinded.
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  Speaker 1: I was not open to the option of being friends
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  Speaker 1: with anyone else I had to be friends with. I'm
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: not going to mention their names, but because who knows,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: maybe they listened to Happy Family podcast today. But I
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  Speaker 1: just had to be friends with them, and they didn't
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  Speaker 1: want to be friends with me, and I couldn't see
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  Speaker 1: any other option. I mean, it was just tragic.
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  Speaker 2: So one of the things that I've always talked to
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  Speaker 2: our kids when they're really really struggling with friends, I
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  Speaker 2: can promise you that you are not the only person
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  Speaker 2: who feels like this.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So, Mike, I'm trust to be the parenting expert.
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  Speaker 1: You're blowing me away today.
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  Speaker 2: This a challenge to them is to go and find
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  Speaker 2: somebody who's sitting on their own. Yeah, someone who doesn't
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  Speaker 2: have friends. And there will be plenty of kids in
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  Speaker 2: your school playground who are sitting on their own, who
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: don't have anyone to hang out with. The challenge we
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: have is that they again have the blinders and they
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: just want to be I.
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  Speaker 1: Want to be friends with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: just on that optionality as well, something else that we've
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: got pretty good science around. You were talking before about
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: wanting to be in control. Kids don't want to hear
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  Speaker 1: our options. So if I've got a child who's really struggling,
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to sit down and I'm going to have
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  Speaker 1: a conversation with them that says, I know you're struggling.
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  Speaker 1: What options do you see?
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  Speaker 2: Well, that was the next thing on my list. So
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: when we talk to our kids in this situation, I
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: think the most important thing for them to know is
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: that every option is on the table. We'll talk about
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: it all. You want to move schools, let's talk about it.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: We've done that with our children in our number of
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: times we've said to them, are you where you need
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: to be? Is this the right school? Now? We didn't
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: want to move them, but we decided that we were
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: going to let them make the call. And pretty much
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: every time they've said no, no, no, I need to stay
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: here because if I go somewhere else.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: They've acknowledged that it's not necessarily going to be any better. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and that this is a situation that they just need
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: to work through. But because we've given them that option,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: they feel heard, they feel validated, and they're able to
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: actually open up to other possibilities.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because they sort of go, yeah, a moving school
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: isn't going to work. I need to stay here. It's
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: a really really powerful thing. So giving them, giving them
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: the opportunity to develop their own options, and also when
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: they say I don't have any saying okay, well that's fine,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: I can think of a couple would you like to
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: play around with those ideas and be okay with them
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  Speaker 1: saying I don't like that idea when you share it.
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  Speaker 2: With them, like they don't have to take any of
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  Speaker 2: your ideas. No, But it's about recognizing that there are options,
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  Speaker 2: now let's talk through through them.
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  Speaker 1: They're much more likely to hear your options though, once
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  Speaker 1: you've given them a chance to share all of their
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: options with you, like once they've said I've got this option,
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  Speaker 1: this option, and this option. Now I'm out of options,
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  Speaker 1: They're much more likely to listen to your options and say, hmm,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: there's an idea. Or they might say no because they
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: feel helpless and hopeless. But there are all kinds of
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: other things that are available.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, so most schools will have lunchtime clubs, activities in
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: the library, you know, different things that your children can
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: get involved in that don't necessarily fit the mold, and
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: very often our kids don't see them as options because
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: their friends aren't going there all.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: The people that they want to be friends with. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Karen's wish for her child is that she will find joy.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: And if as parents, we can help our children recognize
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: joy in their relationships, they'll be better able to find that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, a couple of other ideas. We have contacted
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: teachers in the past with our children's permission and ask
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: the teacher to send an email around of parents just
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: saying we have somebody who moved into the school a
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: couple of months ago. They've got a child who's still
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: having a few struggles, ten year old girl, ten year
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  Speaker 1: old boy, whatever it is. If you have a child
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  Speaker 1: who you think would be willing to have a playdate
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  Speaker 1: on the weekend or go down to the park or
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  Speaker 1: with ask the.
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  Speaker 2: Kids, who do you want to be friends with? You're
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  Speaker 2: not obviously friends with them at the moment. Who would
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  Speaker 2: you like to be friends with? Why don't we have
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  Speaker 2: them over for an afternoon?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a lot easier with younger kids than
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  Speaker 1: older kids, But as parents, we can get to know
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  Speaker 1: the other families in our kids' classrooms and that can
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  Speaker 1: really help the kids to develop relationships there as well.
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  Speaker 1: I think the main thing that I would also emphasize
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  Speaker 1: is that avoidance reinforces anxiety. So if you've got a
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  Speaker 1: child who is struggling with friendships and started to say,
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to go to school, I hate being
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  Speaker 1: at school, I don't feel comfortable at school, it's really
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  Speaker 1: important that we encourage them to go to school, because otherwise,
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  Speaker 1: when we let them have the day off and then
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  Speaker 1: the next day off and then the week off, it
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  Speaker 1: feels so affirming it feels so safe, it feels so
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  Speaker 1: nice to not have to go to school, that the
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  Speaker 1: next time they have to go, it builds even more,
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  Speaker 1: it gets even stronger. It's like that Amigdala goes into
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  Speaker 1: massive override and the only way it can be released
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  Speaker 1: is to be told I don't have to go, which
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  Speaker 1: reinforces the cycle for the next time around. So it's
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  Speaker 1: really important. While it's okay for kids to have a
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  Speaker 1: mental health day now and then, it's really important that
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  Speaker 1: our kids are working through these hard things and finding
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  Speaker 1: solutions with a problem, solving in and finding options.
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  Speaker 2: I think the last thing I'd say is, if this
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  Speaker 2: is a real struggle, including your child's teacher in this
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  Speaker 2: process is really important. There have been times where it
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  Speaker 2: has been acknowledged that this is an ongoing issue for
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  Speaker 2: a lot of kids in the class, and so as
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  Speaker 2: a cohort they have actually dealt with friendship challenges in
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  Speaker 2: a really proactive way without singling out specific children. But also,
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  Speaker 2: your teacher is going to see your child in a
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  Speaker 2: totally different light and be able to sometimes.
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  Speaker 1: Well, hopefully they'll have a whole lot more empathy and
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  Speaker 1: love and gentleness for that kid and give them some
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  Speaker 1: more support.
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  Speaker 2: No, but sometimes they can also kind of add to
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  Speaker 2: the picture as well and share things that you are
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: not aware of that would be helpful.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Podcasts at happy families dot com. You that's podcasts with
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: an ess at happy families dot com dot you if
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: you would like us to help you with one of
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: those parenting problems that are perplexing you, Karen, We really
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: hope that this has been a helpful response to your
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: email and that it helps you with your ten year old.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rulan from
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and for
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: more about making your family happy, you can visit us
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot you