Latest / Thick No More / Heidi Mavir: Your Child Is Not Broken | The Truth About SEND, School Refusal & Why Parents Are Blaming Themselves

Transcript

Heidi Mavir: Your Child Is Not Broken | The Truth About SEND, School Refusal & Why Parents Are Blaming Themselves · Thick No More

0:00
Hello everyone and welcome back to Thick No More, which is fast
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becoming a really loud voice out there for people like me who've
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been got labeled growing up. I'm joined today by somebody, I
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think who has become, in my humble opinion, one of the
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loudest and most respected voices in the same community.
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Some of the stuff she posts on Instagram has me in stitches.
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However, there are many strings to her bow, and I'll name a few
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for you. Sunday Times best selling
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author. Send advocate.
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An entrepreneur, A campaigner. Someone spends a day, which is
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important to me, helping families navigate a system
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which, let's promise, is pushing most of us to breaking point.
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Her book, Your Child Is Not Broken, resonated with thousands
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of parents because I think in my opinion, it challenges something
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that many families are told directly, indirectly every
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single day at the moment that somehow their child is of the
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problem. What if that child isn't broken?
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So Heidi Mava, listen, I am so honoured to have you on the
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podcast. Thank you so much for joining me
1:18
today. Welcome.
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Well, thanks for having me, Jay. I'm excited.
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I never need much of an excuse to chat shit with somebody.
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So yeah, let's do it. Well, OK, so.
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If I was allowed to swear, I'm just opening.
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Listen, I fully expect you to, I'll be, I'll be deeply
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disappointed if you don't. Let's put it like that.
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Excellent. OK, so listen, same question
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everyone gets right. And it's it's I guess some
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really good answers to this. So just for one day only, I am a
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magic man. And from now on, every time you
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fling a door open in dramatic fashion, a theme tune or a song
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will start playing that represents you in your life.
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What is it and why it's? Such a good question, I love
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this. I think, I don't know if other
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people have chosen this, but I think I would have to have The
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Muppets theme tune. Has anyone chosen that before
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with that Lovely at the beginning and then it's time to
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put on makeup. Yeah, I think that that's kind
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of like the that's my theme tune.
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Like I'm a bit of a chameleon. I you are because I'm late
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diagnosed, late identified. I'm masked well into my 40s.
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I've got like a heritage of being a performer.
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So like, being on stage was the place that I always felt
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comfortable because I could be whatever I wanted to be and no
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one was going to tell me it was wrong.
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In fact, people told me it was brilliant that I was so good at
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pretending to be somebody else. And you know, The Muppets,
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what's not to love? Like, maybe on the way in I'll
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have that. On the way out, I'll have
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phenomena. Yeah, so listen, you know what
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I'm going to be doing now when I'm putting my Instagram post
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on? So I'm telling people you're
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coming on the podcast, you know what?
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The music's going to be right. I mean, you can't be.
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It's so good because it opens with that like trombone as well,
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a little bit of brass. Yeah, yeah.
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And then you've probably got all these teenagers looking at us
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now going, what the hell are they talking about?
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Not very sensible, but imagine the response you would get if
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you every time you walked in a room you know?
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It's a great question and I've had those.
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That is by far the best answer, by the way.
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I've had some great. I've had some great.
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I've had some really like emotional ones.
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And I after I've gone away and thought about everything they've
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said later on in the podcast and thought, why can I get why you
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said that? Yeah, but you that really that
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song actually for you is is absolutely perfect.
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Yeah, it's a great song. It's a great you.
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Know you read something you just said that before I start digging
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into where I want to go with you because I really want to, I want
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to touch on some stuff with you that that that is right smack in
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front of everyone's faces at the moment.
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Always has been, but the moment just seems to be even more.
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But you just mentioned about masking there, so I did exactly
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the same. I masked for I like 4748 years,
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too scared to put my hand up and ask questions.
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Did you see yesterday that Tom Holland, who plays Spider Man,
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refused to go on Saturday Night Live host Saturday Night Live
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because there was no cue cards because of his dyslexia?
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I thought it was amazing that he came out and said that.
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Look it up, It's it's brilliant. What what it made me realise is
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deep inside us neurodivergence, particularly ones that mask and
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there are lots of adults masking now I know lots of them that
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battle every day because they're in a position where they can't
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quit their job or change their job.
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It just shows how good actors we are because we have to overthink
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and overcompensate for every single thing along that way.
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But yeah, look it up. He came out and he's refused to
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do Saturday Night Live because they the cue cards.
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I don't know. Yeah, you.
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Know I. Respect him.
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So I've got an English and performing arts degree and the
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performing was always my thing, Singing was my thing and then
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and then like acting was my thing.
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I went to uni. I thought I was going to be an
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actor and one of the things that I do in my spare time for fun,
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but I get paid, is that I host burlesque and host burlesque and
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cabaret events. And I've done that for like 15
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years. And when I do that now, I, when
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I first started doing it, I web specs obviously, and I would do
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it without my glasses on and I would have notes in the wings.
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And I've got really shocking working memory because of my
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ADHD. So I always struggled to learn
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lines when I was a performer. I was always much better at
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improvised stuff. I was in an improvised comedy
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troupe and stuff. When I come off stage, read what
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I needed to say, go back on stage and say it.
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Now I host in my wheelchair wearing my glasses with cue
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cards. And that's like, for me, that's
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the ultimate expression of where I've come with my unmasking.
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It's taken some doing like, and it has to.
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It's had to be a conscious decision.
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Fair play to Tom Holland, though.
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Also I. Shared it on I shared it on
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LinkedIn and the statement that he came out with was wonderful.
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It's really, really, really cool and you've just made me feel
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you've no idea what you've just said.
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I'm I'm presenting an education event in a couple of weeks time
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and I hate it and I hate it because I don't.
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I still deep down the fear of the Red Cross and all that and
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making mistakes and getting things wrong like asking how to
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pronounce your name at the star is the fear of something being
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wrong. You know what though?
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So much It's. Asking because so many people
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don't ask. And then we start the podcast
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and I'm like, oh shit, do I? Do I correct them?
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I'm not going. To be.
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Do I correct them? No.
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A lot of people, lots of podcast recordings, it says.
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Emma, welcome, Heidi Mavia. I'm like, oh.
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Bollocks. No, I get, I, I just, I, I, it
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has to be just so. And I'm a bit like, like you
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just said, but someone said the other day, listen, you need to
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stop this. You're a good presenter.
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Just have your phone. Get a teleprompter on your
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phone. Who cares?
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And I'm like, you know what? Yeah, I'm going to stuff this.
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I'm not going to battle my fears anymore and pretend that I'm
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trying to remember things that I clearly can't remember.
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And then I have those frozen moments where I freeze up, you
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know, you know those moments. So I am this time I decided I'm
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going to. I've just downloaded a
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teleprompter today. So you're saying you have cue
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cards? Is, is, is, is, is made me feel
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better, Right. First question.
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I have sparkly cards that I buy from like a craft shop and I
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write it in massive letters 'cause I can't really read
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without my glasses on. Yeah, I will say.
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And I drop them and, you know, I lose them and I remember that
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I'm sitting on them. But, you know, I know I'm good
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at what I do. And that's an accommodation that
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I make for myself so I can do my job well.
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Right, I I, I, I, I somewhat it was it was a fellow of dyslexic
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said to me said this. She just needs to stop being
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like, like stop pretending that you can do and, and, and
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actually you're, you're presented to universities that
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are looking at inclusion and accessibility.
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So the fact that you're, you're using your phone to remember
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stuff shows that you care. So just shut up and just get on
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with it. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to,
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I'm going to do it this time. I'm not going to stress out
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anymore. Do you know what a big part of
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it for me around that unmasking of like those kind of
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accommodations is when I start needed to start to use a
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wheelchair. I had to unpick a lot of stuff
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around my own internalised ableism and telling myself that
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using a chair on mobility aids was giving up or you know, how
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that looked and you know, all of that.
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And I think that this is like the extra benefit from that.
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I wouldn't probably have felt OK using cue cards until I needed
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to use a wheelchair. And then that really challenged
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everything that I thought that about myself and disability and
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accommodations. And now I'm like, so just so you
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know, I'll be, we include Q cars, I'll be wearing my glasses
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and I'll be in my wheelchair. That's all right, isn't it?
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And they're like, yeah. Yeah, I think, I think that the
9:19
moment you just kind of like let go, like everything.
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The moment, the moment I stopped pretending, you know, and
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stopped asking my wife, hey, how do I spell this when I'm sending
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a message or typing an e-mail? The moment I stopped doing that
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die I I, I'm not saying I felt better, but I felt like, well, I
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don't Care now I want to put my hand up and ask a question, even
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if I know in here it's killing me going that's a stupid
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question. Everyone's going to look at you.
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You're going to get called thick again.
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I just do it now. I just do it I'm.
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Asking, isn't it? It's exhausting trying to
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pretend and do the extra work required.
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And, you know, like, yeah, when I'm working with people, when
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I'm working with other businesses and I'm coaching
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them, you know, I'll say there's no such thing as a stupid
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question. And you can guarantee someone
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else wants to ask that question. I need you to be brave.
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I don't know if, you know, there's a really amazing
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comedian called Barbara Nice. She was on, like, Phoenix nights
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and stuff. She's incredible.
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The actor is called Janice Conley, and I love her.
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And she has a joke. And she says if you've got any
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questions, love, it's during their act.
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If you've got any questions, love, just put your hands up and
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ask. Because if we'd all done that at
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school and asked when we didn't understand things, we'd all know
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how to do fractions by now. Yes, Barbara, You know, like,
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yeah. Listen, we're coming on to
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schools in a minute. Don't you worry.
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We're definitely going to talk. I have.
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I'm not letting that one go. Even if we're two hours into
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this podcast, we're still talking about schools.
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Well, listen, we'll talk about your book really quickly, right?
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Because the title your child is not broken.
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Like I, I, I, it was quite emotional for me because where
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are we now Friday. So a few days ago I was speaking
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to a family who are really, really struggling at the moment.
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I mean, like, and I, I, it was, it was getting to me a bit.
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And she just, the lady said to me, she said, look, I just
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don't, we're broken. She's broken.
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I I don't know what we can do. And I when I was doing my
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research into you for this podcast and I came across that I
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was like, bloody hell. Like what, why, Why the title?
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It's such a powerful title. You know, why choose those
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words? Tell me a bit about it.
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Do you know the title came? So the book is about my
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experience with my son who when he was 15 crashed out of school.
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Like went from full attendance to nothing within half a turn.
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And I didn't know what was what was happening.
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And he like was in full blown mental health crisis.
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And I was, it was really frightening.
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And we went through a period when he couldn't leave his
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bedroom. It was just freaking awful.
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And from the beginning of that experience, I had no experience
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really in SEND, special educational needs and
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disabilities or in, you know, the school system beyond having
12:21
been to school myself. I've done a bit of like
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behaviour support supply work. When I was like in my mid 20s,
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that was it. I had no clue.
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But I thought that naively thought that what would happen
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would be I'd go to school and I'd say he's not great.
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I don't know what's happening. It's been suggested that maybe
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he's autistic and that they would go, don't worry, we've got
12:47
this. And actually the total fucking
12:51
opposite happened. And I remember the first meeting
12:54
them saying, do you think maybe he's picking up on your anxiety
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and. Oh my God.
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You know, wow, he's, he's fine when he's here.
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And, you know, someone alluded to whether it was maybe the fact
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that was a single parent that was all kinds of shit.
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And I remember coming away from that meeting and thinking, God,
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there's something wrong with him, like and then look like a
13:19
good six months of looking at him through this lens of if he
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is autistic, what does that mean?
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And like I've totally lost sight of him completely.
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Like was just looking at him through this really medicalized
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path pathologically, like that word pathologized lens.
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And when I was writing the book, there were lots of different
13:44
titles that we were playing around with.
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And my editor said, what do you want people who read this book
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to know? And I said, I want them to know
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that their kids are broken. And she said, I think that's
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your title. So it came from that.
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And I. Upon that then, so I know that
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you help a lot of families. I don't expect you to give me a
14:09
figure, but I just want you to try and look just for clarity,
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there are loads and loads of parents that listen to this
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podcast. There are also loads of
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education educators that listen to it and at the moment about 27
14:21
different countries. So some of the stuff we're going
14:23
to talk about, I'm going to have to try and break down for people
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so they can explain because it's not the same, you know, in
14:28
different countries. But just give it.
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Give people an idea roughly of how many parents genuinely
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believe that their child's broken by the time they find
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you, for example. I think that by the time they
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find their way to us in our community, most parents think
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they have failed their children and they think that their
14:54
children have no future. And a good 3/4 of them think
15:01
there's something wrong with my child.
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And I don't know what to do. Like, I think it's intentionally
15:09
powerful language. And I haven't heard parents say
15:13
to say a lot they're broke. Their kids are broken.
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I've heard them say that they are broken.
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But I think it's the implication that there's something wrong
15:25
with your child. I didn't want to call the book
15:30
There's Nothing wrong With You because I think that language
15:33
around normalization and right and wrong is really problematic.
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But I think, you know, we have thousands of parents in our
15:42
community and we all share that experience of having sat with
15:47
someone who we felt should have known better and would have
15:51
helped us. And we've been made to feel that
15:55
it's something we're doing wrong or that there's something wrong
15:58
with our children. I think that's a universal
16:00
experience. Mum and dads just want to be mum
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and dads, don't they? They don't want to be.
16:07
They don't want to be lawyers and scribers and readers and
16:11
everything else that involves when a child comes home from
16:13
school. They just want to be a mum and
16:15
dad and. Yeah, and I think we we trust
16:18
schools to take care of our kids and we trust them.
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You don't get me wrong. I think teachers are incredible.
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And, you know, I could not do that job for sure.
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Not just because I say fucking bugger too much, but you know, I
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children who have additional needs, children who have support
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needs are terribly let down by the system.
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And part of it is the system is rooted in this doctrine that
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it's it's not their fault as and it isn't their fault that
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children have additional needs. But there's a lot of and if only
17:05
your child would insert whatever it is that we want kids who
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can't do things to do right. And we can't teach our kid if
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they can't sit still, we can't, you know, help them with this
17:19
thing there if they're not choosing the right behaviour,
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you know, and I see things all the time that are like where
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people say, you know, they talk about ADHD a lot.
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ADHD is not an excuse. And I agree it's not an excuse,
17:33
but it is a reason, right? And I think there's this,
17:38
especially at the minute in the UK, there's this move towards
17:42
like the certain section of society are being painted as
17:46
like lefty and woke. And I think send parents are
17:49
being bracketed in that and we're being told that we're too
17:52
and we need to be more disciplined because ultimately
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the education system is set up to pump out children like a
18:01
factory and make them sit for work and ready for the
18:04
workplace, right? We know that neurodivergent kids
18:07
are not very office office shaped.
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You know, they're not very retail shaped.
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Actually, they're no, they're not 9 times out of 10, they're
18:16
more entrepreneur shaped. But our school system doesn't,
18:19
doesn't prepare them for life as an entrepreneur because that's
18:22
not guaranteed, is it? It's not that doesn't play into
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the rules of capitalism. So I think the system itself is
18:28
deeply, deeply flawed and in and amongst that, rather than
18:33
looking at that and being, do you know what?
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We are actually getting this wrong for all kids.
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It's just that send kids are like the Canaries in the mine,
18:41
the early alarm system, but we're actually seeing that more
18:44
across all the children that aren't necessarily under that
18:46
bracket. Now, instead of admitting that
18:48
that's what's going on, that the, the education system, the
18:51
way it's set up, the way we expect children to behave
18:53
because we've got to manage these massive classes.
18:56
UK has the biggest class sizes in, in Europe.
18:59
Instead of acknowledging that we go, no, there's nothing wrong
19:02
with us because look at these other 26 kids that can behave
19:05
perfectly well in a classroom. It's your child that's wrong.
19:08
It's your child that's broken and it's probably down to your
19:11
crappy parenting and it's really, really toxic.
19:15
When they, when they, when they come to you and, and, and join
19:18
the community and whatnot, are they already aware?
19:22
Do they have an idea in their mind that it's the environment,
19:26
the classroom environments, the problem, or do you find yourself
19:29
having to gradually build that into them for them to comprehend
19:33
exactly what you just talked about?
19:35
The hey, listen, it's no good. You stick in and you're a
19:39
divergent child on a linear path where they're going to pass an
19:42
exam at the end of this little journey that they're going to go
19:44
on, which you think is so perfect and it's been perfect
19:46
for God knows how many years. It isn't.
19:49
Do they understand that or is, is that part of your process of
19:52
explaining this? And it's the system.
19:57
I mean, it depends. I think the first thing that
20:00
that generally happens when, like, parents crash into our
20:03
community and they usually do, they like, arrive like rabbits
20:06
in headlights. And it's usually because they
20:08
find me and my community because their child has stopped being
20:11
able to go to school consistently.
20:13
That's pretty much a common theme.
20:15
And there'll be all kinds of reasons for that.
20:17
But a lot of those families that find me here because their kids
20:20
are neurodovergent and they're not getting the support they
20:21
need. Yeah.
20:23
I have this weird thing where I think because as a child and
20:29
young person, it was hammered into me that education was
20:32
really important. My mum and dad really like were
20:36
very kind of like military. I mean, like to the point that
20:39
if I give you an example of how important education was to our
20:43
family, my mum died when I was when I was 19 and my brother was
20:47
15. My brother wore his school
20:50
uniform to my mum's funeral because that was how important
20:54
our education was to our mum. So we were brought up in this
20:58
environment where you work hard, you get your qualifications.
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I think because I've been hammered through more on my
21:05
mum's side, I think I'm from a generation, multiple generations
21:09
of undiagnosed and unrecognised neurodivergent people.
21:12
My grandfather worked on the team that designed Concord.
21:15
He was an engineer, he had an MBA, all that kind of jazz.
21:20
You know, I'm from a long line of engineers, scientists.
21:24
Many people in my family have their own Geiger counters.
21:26
Do you know what I mean? We're like autistic as FOC, but
21:29
no one ever clocked it because we protected ourselves by right.
21:34
Let's just channel that, right? And so for me, I had to do a lot
21:40
of unpicking what I thought about education because I was of
21:45
the opinion that education above all else, attendance matters,
21:50
behaviour matters. Now, I'm not saying it doesn't,
21:52
but it doesn't matter as much as mental health and well-being.
21:55
It doesn't matter as much as your relationship with your
21:57
child or young person. And I and I still believe that
22:08
it's right and proper that children and families who want
22:11
their children to be in school should have that opportunity.
22:14
Just because it's difficult doesn't mean that we shouldn't
22:16
make accommodations to make it possible.
22:18
And then on the flip side of that, I know that 70% of PDA
22:21
kids, pathological demand, avoid and profile children like my son
22:25
aren't in school full time. So I never went as far as let's
22:30
just suck it all off. Let's all home educate.
22:33
I do have people in my community who do that.
22:36
And I think, oh, maybe I should have done that.
22:38
Do you know what I mean? But when I hit that problem at
22:42
the beginning, I was like, there is no way I'm home educating.
22:45
I had lots of stereotyped ideas around that, you know, I was
22:48
like, look, I know I had a home birth, but I don't, I don't knit
22:51
yoghurt, do you know what I mean?
22:53
Yeah, no, I get what? You mean it was like, I want my
22:56
qualifications because it was hammered into me so hard, you
23:00
know? And you've touched on something
23:03
there as well. And you probably didn't even
23:06
mean to go there with it, but but just to interrupt you for a
23:09
second. Yeah.
23:10
Well, I always, and I this was, this was on on LinkedIn on, I
23:15
don't know, Tuesday, someone put a post on about AI and, and I
23:18
commented on the post saying, could you imagine it was, it was
23:22
related to education and the use of AI.
23:24
And I said, could you imagine if we gave everybody in a school
23:29
setting the same technology to learn, not just a neuro
23:36
divergent child? Because I knew I'd get a
23:39
response and the response backwards.
23:41
Well, that, that what, what's wrong with that?
23:43
I don't understand what's wrong with that.
23:44
So I replied, but was you're then automatically sticking a
23:48
label on that child's head saying, Oh, we're going to give
23:50
you that? I said, do you think that
23:51
child's using that technology? Probably not because they're too
23:55
reluctant and too scared to, because they don't want to stick
23:57
out like a sore thumb. If you give everybody the same
23:59
technology and encourage the use of it, I said the UK would have
24:05
be a completely different place. Again, I waited for the response
24:08
and I got 1 back and they went, what do you mean?
24:11
I said, well instead of worrying about the money that we're
24:14
having to pay into schools to make schools better, we should
24:17
be looking at the end result. We get out because we'd be
24:19
churning out scientists, CEOs, like world beaters, inventors.
24:27
You know are people who work in popcorn factories if they want
24:30
to do that, like you know, exactly whatever you want, you
24:34
measure your totally that me. But but it's just this this fear
24:38
for me. I mean, you also mentioned
24:40
about, you know, the way it's going the country and then you
24:44
know, sort of the politics question for that popped into my
24:48
head when you when you were talking about that is what do
24:51
you think is the biggest sort of what's the word I'm looking for?
24:55
Come on brain misconception that society, particularly in the UK,
25:00
still has about neurodivergent children.
25:04
I think it depends on the kind of neurodivergence.
25:07
I think that the stereotype around ADHD kids is that they
25:12
are disruptive and they turntables over.
25:17
The misconception about autistic kids is that they can't form
25:22
friendships and that they'll have some kind of special savant
25:26
skill. So like when autistic kids
25:30
aren't great at maths so oh they can't be autistic, they're not
25:32
great at maths. Oh shit at maths I'm autistic as
25:35
fuck. Do you know what I mean?
25:38
PDA kids are seen as being objectionable, rude.
25:45
I think PDA kids are absolutely freaking fantastic.
25:48
I love that profile of PDA when they just say whatever the hell
25:53
they like. I love that they like their
25:56
little rebels and that they just, I don't know if you've
26:00
watched The Assembly, which is a show that's on, I think it's on
26:04
BBC or, I don't know, basically a panel of autistic and new
26:10
artistic and learning disabled adults interviewing celebrities.
26:15
And it's freaking brilliant. And some of the celebrities
26:19
don't know what to do, but the conversations, because some
26:22
people in that room will just say what all of us would like to
26:25
say. Yeah, we're all too scared to
26:28
say it. But I also do the thing with the
26:30
thing with particularly with autism, there is so much stigma
26:35
around if your child is autistic because of that thing of it goes
26:41
one of two ways. Either our autistic kids are
26:44
expected to be like Rain Man or our autistic kids have such high
26:49
support needs that they won't be able to have a fruitful life,
26:53
you know, and we have to be really careful because autism
26:57
looks different in every person. And we have to be really careful
27:00
as speaking autistics that we're not leaving non speaking
27:04
autistics out in the rain. Do you know what I mean?
27:06
But I think it is all based on stereotype and IA. 100% agree
27:13
with you. If we made accommodations for
27:16
all kids in classrooms, if we just had ear defenders in
27:20
classrooms and we had enough for every child in that classroom to
27:23
use them. Then kids who weren't identified
27:26
as neurodivergent but were feeling overwhelmed and needed
27:29
to just give their brain a bit of a rest could put them on and
27:33
you would see such a difference. Yeah, well, they there's this
27:37
thing of, oh, no, we can't have a class, class full of kids
27:40
wearing hair defenders. Why not?
27:41
They can still hear. Absolutely.
27:44
You know, or if we gave our kids if we let kids use spell checker
27:48
software like all of us do in when we're.
27:51
Just simple, simple things. Or a calculator, or cue cards,
27:55
or. Yeah, which, hey, listen, hang
27:57
on. Let's be honest though, right?
27:59
You that word, you just use their calculator.
28:01
I mean, I remember it. I remember starting to use them
28:05
in school when they became available, but even calculators
28:09
were frowned upon Once Upon a time, right?
28:11
Oh, that's cheating. That's cheating, that is.
28:13
You don't think twice about checking your phone out now and
28:15
working out some. I mean, like I, I just, it just,
28:19
it's beggars belief. And if we want to progress and
28:24
we want to be a better country, in my opinion, the way to do
28:26
that is to give these kids what they need.
28:30
Stop being penny pinchers. Yeah.
28:34
And I know it comes down to politics and money and greed and
28:37
all that. And we're going to get on to all
28:38
that, don't you worry. But but I just think instead of
28:42
worrying about what we're putting in the front end all
28:44
those pile of coins, think about what you're going to get out of
28:47
back end. The next the next inventor of
28:49
the most incredible product that everyone purchases all, like you
28:53
said, the next brain surgeon or the next person that cures
28:57
cancer. Or that's what you can.
28:59
Get out of it. Poet or musician or correct?
29:02
Artist. Or whatever.
29:04
They're all there. They're all sitting there.
29:07
You know, Tom Holland, we just spoke about Tom Holland.
29:10
He he's masking, he's been masking his whole life and it
29:14
it's all there. They're all there.
29:15
They're all hidden. You just need someone to unpick
29:17
that box and let it go and go. You know what stuff this Let's
29:21
just try it and see what happens.
29:22
That would take such a massive shift though, within the system
29:26
for us to actually decide that we're going to give children and
29:30
young people freedom to like, I, I saw something on the other day
29:34
on social media. So imagine if on the first day
29:37
when kids arrived in school, like they don't mean reception,
29:40
they mean like when they're first getting into, like when
29:42
they're going to do learning instead of on the first day we
29:45
worked out what they could and couldn't, what they couldn't do,
29:48
like where their gaps were in numeracy and literacy.
29:50
If instead of that we went, what are they really good at?
29:55
And we chased that with them, my God, what would we be getting at
29:58
the other end, you know? But instead we're relying on
30:01
these like gifted programs to pick up these extraordinary
30:05
children. And there are tons of kids who
30:07
could be extraordinary in particular things who like, if
30:10
you really lend into it, would take such a massive shift,
30:14
though, in the mindset of WE, it's a big risk.
30:20
And it would be terrifying for the adults in the classroom to
30:23
give kids the freedom. They need.
30:24
I totally agree. But if we could, but if we could
30:27
get to a situation where we were educating our children about how
30:33
to communicate their needs, how to set boundaries, how to ask
30:36
for help when they needed it without shame, how to regulate,
30:40
how to Co regulate, how to, you know, like how to speak to
30:45
themselves in a kind way, you know, like these are the things
30:49
that are genuine life skills because we have calculators and
30:52
we have AI, you know. Running a bank account,
30:56
presenting like I've just talked to you that I've got to present
30:59
these these kind of things are things that when you leave
31:02
school, you need life skills, you know, and I agree with you,
31:06
you, you'd need someone with balls the size of planet Earth
31:10
to come in and go. You know what stuff this we're
31:13
not doing it your way anymore. We're doing it my way.
31:16
My head's on the block, but I'll tell you honestly that if
31:19
somebody did it, we'd have we'd have a country or world be.
31:23
I mean, we do have that in the unschooling community.
31:26
We have parents who are educating their children in that
31:29
way and there's a lot of side eyeing going on, like I know
31:33
what. Kind of what kind of results are
31:35
coming out of that? Are you seeing anything?
31:37
I mean, kids who if they were in the school system would be in
31:45
mental health crisis and they're not in the school system and
31:49
they're not in mental health crisis.
31:51
Like that's a win for me. You know, like if we had a
31:56
system that this is a really crude analogy, but I'll go with
32:02
it. I think as someone who has a
32:03
physical disability, I'm probably allowed to do this, But
32:05
we'll see. If we had a system that cut the
32:09
hands off of one in five children and one in five
32:14
children lost the use of a limb by being in education, we would
32:20
stop doing it. No, totally.
32:22
But we have a system that impacts the mental health of our
32:27
children, young people, to the tune of one in five.
32:29
In most classrooms, by the time they're 15, one in five children
32:33
will experience mental health crisis or a mental health
32:35
difficulty of some kind because of the school environment.
32:41
And we're pretending that that's not happening.
32:43
And we have 1.3 million kids persistently absent from school
32:47
in the UK. Like it's a crisis and we're
32:50
ignoring it. And we're throwing crappy PR at
32:55
it. And we're not listening to the
32:57
people who, yeah, I don't. We're not listening to the
32:59
people who know what really is required.
33:02
And, you know, we're not even making really obvious choices
33:06
about, for example, class sizes, you know which?
33:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we could totally be doing.
33:13
Yeah, so so all right. Sorry, I'm sorry.
33:17
No. No, no, no.
33:18
I want you to. I want you to because it's
33:20
important. People need to hear this, and
33:23
people need to hear it because hey, I don't want people to
33:25
think they're lost. Yeah, like you just said, your
33:28
child's not broken, but there's. So I've still got parents
33:32
sitting listening, thinking what the fuck do I do?
33:37
Yeah, what do we do? I don't know what to do.
33:40
So here's one thing that said, in your opinion, do you think
33:46
send support is getting better or getting worse?
33:51
It's not getting better, not in the UK.
33:56
You know I the news send paper reforms that are coming in are
34:00
talking about earlier identification.
34:02
Now, earlier identification is absolutely something we need,
34:06
but it's at the cost of better provision across the board for
34:11
children who have more significant support needs.
34:13
And the investment just isn't there.
34:17
We're just not seeing the resources.
34:19
And, you know, and the government are saying, well,
34:20
we're committing this amount of money.
34:23
You know, they spent more money this week on backing the new
34:28
Universal Park than they're spending on education this year.
34:34
What the fuck? Don't get me wrong, I'll be
34:36
there in the queue, I'll be going on roller coasters, but I,
34:40
you know, it's just not. And I think the thing that
34:49
really concerns me is that the things that are coming up and
34:53
that you hear send advocates speaking about other things.
34:55
That said advocates have been speaking about for 20 plus
34:57
years. Things haven't changed.
35:00
We're still fighting the fact that we find and prosecute
35:03
parents and carers of kids who are too on Welsworth attend
35:05
school. I delivered a petition on that
35:07
five years ago to 10 Downing St. Nothing has changed.
35:10
They are not listening because it's inconvenient.
35:13
We're inconvenient and so we're painted as inconvenient because
35:18
it would be very difficult to change the system.
35:20
It would take a huge overhaul. And don't get me wrong, I think
35:23
the government that we have now have got intentions to make some
35:27
significant changes and they're still missing the mark.
35:31
We're still failing thousands. When they got in, when they got
35:36
in, which would have been the October.
35:38
And I know it's the October because that's when we moved.
35:40
We moved around that sort of time and I remember, so I work
35:46
in education, so I speak to schools, universities, you name
35:51
it across the UK. And at the time I remember
35:55
speaking to one particular head who was particularly concerned
35:59
if Labour got in because it was an Independent School.
36:03
And he said listen, I have no problem like being being taxed
36:08
that on the school, he said. But what the misunderstanding
36:13
and misinterpretation from the from the government that's going
36:15
to be is that everyone's rich that sticks their kids in
36:18
independent schools now. It's as if that money's going
36:21
into the right place, then fine, I'm good with it.
36:26
I haven't, I haven't actually spoke this gentleman, but you've
36:30
just triggered me. That'll be the my next e-mail
36:32
tomorrow or on Monday. I've where's that money gone?
36:36
Because they've had all that tax.
36:38
We've seen some schools closed down, they've taxed up 20%.
36:42
And we were kind of told me and you, hey, listen, don't worry,
36:45
we're going to stick that back into the system.
36:47
Is it all been spent on on on on on PR?
36:51
Yeah. Is it ring fenced?
36:52
Is it being, you know, it's. I don't know, Heidi.
36:55
You know, I'll share with you, and this is something I'm not
36:57
proud of, but I was privately educated, so I didn't go to a
37:01
state school until I was when I went to primary state school.
37:06
And then my mum and dad said, well, I think my grandparents
37:09
paid for it, sent me to a private school.
37:12
It wasn't a particularly good private school because I wasn't
37:14
clever enough to get into the good private school that my
37:16
brother went to. But the reason they did that was
37:22
because of their obsession with education.
37:23
And I think they knew. No, I don't even think I know
37:28
they knew I was really skilled in creative arts.
37:31
I was a great writer. I loved art, I loved performing,
37:35
I loved music. I was terrible at maths,
37:39
physics, chemistry, the stuff that, you know, kind of counted
37:44
in our family. And they made the decision to
37:47
put me into a private school for the first year to 5th year, as
37:51
was. What's that now, Year nine?
37:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever, because they knew that
37:57
those class sizes were smaller. There was only 16 kids in my
38:00
maths class, there was 4 kids in my French class.
38:04
Do you know what I mean? And I mean, I wasn't happy at
38:07
school. I hated going to school, I hated
38:09
that school. I was terribly bullied.
38:11
I was one of only three day pupils in my year and it was
38:13
horrible. And I think had I been in a
38:18
mainstream state school, it would have been even worse so.
38:24
You got, you got destroyed, I think.
38:25
I think I only got through it because of that.
38:28
Like I only went to school because my dad put me on the
38:30
school bus every day and picked me up past the school bus every
38:33
day. If I'd had to walk to school, I
38:35
probably wouldn't have gone, you know?
38:38
So you're touching on some stuff here that I hear a lot, like
38:42
parents say more. We're going to, we're going to,
38:45
we're going to literally going to stick it on a credit card.
38:47
This is going to break us. I don't care.
38:49
We're going to put them in that score because, you know, at
38:52
least I have a chance. And every part of my, like,
38:55
socialist heart hates that That's true for me.
38:58
And also two things can be true, right?
39:01
I'm super grateful that my parents did that for me.
39:04
Yeah. Because I can remember GCSE
39:06
results day and we went to get the results and I remember
39:09
crying and my mum was like, are you happy?
39:13
I was like, I don't have to reset maths.
39:16
That was all I cared about was that I've got a scene I didn't
39:19
have to reset. It's crazy though, isn't it?
39:21
It's just bonkers. And yeah, I don't know.
39:25
All right, OK, no, another question.
39:27
And my brain is like I'm stuck in them all.
39:30
Yeah, sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
39:33
Don't be. I love the fact.
39:34
That's my thing, I apologize. That you want.
39:37
I mean people, please. No, but there's some stuff that
39:41
I really want to ask here and and again, like with the stuff
39:45
that that's that's really doing my not in at the moment.
39:49
So one more question about this sort of subject.
39:51
So and you can refuse to answer this.
39:54
I'm going to use the word lie, all right, And that's probably
39:57
because I can't think of anything else.
39:59
Deception deceive. All right.
40:01
What's the biggest deception you think that parents are being
40:04
told about SEND right now? Nice.
40:11
Can I only pick one? That's like asking me to pick a
40:13
favorite child. I have only got one child.
40:16
But I think the biggest lie that parents are being told about
40:24
SEND is, oh, this might get me in trouble, is that educators
40:33
understand special educational needs and disabilities.
40:36
I hear you. And I'm afraid to say it's just
40:40
not true. No, I hear.
40:44
You and I think that's intentional because I think
40:48
people who get into teaching people don't become teachers
40:52
because they want an easy life They definitely don't become
40:55
teachers for the money. People become teachers because
40:59
they it's a vocation, it's a calling.
41:02
They love kids and they want to give kids the best start in
41:06
life. I genuinely believe that there
41:08
are very few teachers who don't feel that way.
41:11
Maybe the system knocks it out of them a little down the line
41:13
and we lose some people, but that is why people get into
41:16
teaching as a profession. It's a calling, it's a vocation,
41:19
and I think if the system was honest with teachers about what
41:23
it's really designed to do, which is to churn out well
41:28
behaved little robots who will pay their taxes and won't be
41:32
inconvenient, people would never join the profession.
41:36
No. And then kids don't.
41:38
Don't. They're leaving in abundance as
41:40
well. This is the trouble.
41:41
The the the attrition rate in education at the moment.
41:45
Shocking. Awful.
41:46
And you know what I think might be happening?
41:48
We've had this for a while. We've had this Lemonus for sure.
41:53
And you know, the powers that be have done a great job on turning
41:57
send parents against teachers and vice versa.
41:59
And it feels like we're fighting.
42:01
And I definitely felt like that when my child was struggling in
42:05
school. I felt like the some of the
42:08
educators that I was trying to get help from were working
42:11
against me. I felt that.
42:13
And there was like this really strong culture of parent blame.
42:16
But I'm seeing a shift and I'm seeing actually that that send
42:21
parents are going, oh, we're getting fucked over and teachers
42:25
are getting fucked over as well. And I think what might happen
42:29
when we're expecting some strikes in the autumn, right?
42:31
We're expecting some of the big teachers unions to strike.
42:34
I think send parents will go and stand on those picket lines for
42:37
teachers. I wouldn't be surprised.
42:39
And I would like to see that because I think we all need to
42:42
be like, do you know what? We're all getting shafted here.
42:45
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
42:47
And I, I, I mean, I don't know what your thoughts are on this.
42:49
I don't, I think there's a real disconnect as well, an
42:51
understanding of from the government, what these parents
42:57
and what these families, what it looks like to live with this, to
43:01
deal with these battles every day.
43:04
Yes, either my child want to go to school, My my, my child, my
43:08
children are struggling mental health.
43:10
My child can't read properly. My child's been bullied.
43:12
Whatever it might be, I don't think they fully understand I.
43:16
Don't think they have a fucking and I think the reason why they
43:19
don't have a clue is because a lot of them had a similar
43:22
education to me, which is that they were privately educated.
43:25
And when you are privately educated, you benefit from
43:29
everything that goes with that smaller class size.
43:30
This is better attention when parents are paying for
43:33
education, they're getting a better education.
43:36
And we don't, you know, not always the best, but I think
43:40
that people who have not experienced, and I count myself
43:43
in this, people who have not experienced the mainstream state
43:46
school system like within the last 10 years don't have a clue
43:51
what's going on in classroom. They don't have a clue.
43:53
This pressure that school leaders, teachers and kids are
43:58
under in those environments and we think about what it was like
44:02
when we went to school 30 plus years ago.
44:05
Nothing like not completely unrecognizable.
44:10
I, I really worry highly. I, you know, we talked about
44:14
what if, what if we did it this way?
44:16
What if someone had the balls to do it that way?
44:18
What really worries me is what's going to get churned out?
44:22
Not five years time, probably 10 years time when these kids now
44:25
are starting to go into workplace.
44:30
Like there's a report about the disconnect and the amount of
44:36
children that end up in juvenile crime or petty crime based off
44:41
the fact that they're fallen out of school.
44:44
Like it's just horrendous. It's it's and the percentage.
44:47
Of the prison population who are probably neurodivergent, well,
44:51
well over absolutely well. And it's probably much higher, I
44:55
think and. I reckon, I reckon it is.
44:58
Yeah. And you know you did, you take
45:00
that and you take that to another extremes.
45:02
Well, you think about people that go in the Army, right?
45:04
I remember that. I I sat and the only reason I
45:07
didn't go in the Army is because the Army recruiting office had
45:09
gone for a brew. I'd sat there 15 minutes waiting
45:12
and I said to Mum, I can't be asked to wait anymore and we
45:15
left. Otherwise I'd have gone in the
45:17
army. I'd have gone in the army as
45:19
dyslexic and come out with nothing.
45:23
So how many do that as well? Because they just don't see
45:27
anything else. I'm not saying there's anything
45:29
wrong with the armed forces, There isn't.
45:30
But when you come out, you just, you've got you're right back in
45:35
the beginning again. You go there and then you go
45:37
right back. And you've got like massive
45:39
shock for those, for those of us who are neurodivergent for whom
45:43
the armed forces, I mean, I come from a family of forces kids.
45:47
Like, I think we're the only part.
45:49
I'm the only, no, I've got cousins that were in the armed
45:53
forces. I've got, you know, whatever my
45:56
mum's brother and my mum's, two of my mum's sisters were also in
46:02
the armed forces. So, you know, like, but if
46:05
you're a neurodivergent person and you come out of the forces
46:08
and you've had that structure, that routine, that stuff that
46:12
really works for neurodivergent people.
46:14
We make soldiers 100%. We're very good at tell us once
46:18
and we'll do it that way every single time, right?
46:20
That's the of that. Go to the end of the line.
46:23
Yeah. Come out of that and be back on
46:25
City Street. Wow.
46:28
How are you meant to function? You know, and that's why we get
46:31
a lot of people who come out of the forces and then go into like
46:33
the prison service or the police service because they need that
46:37
structure and they need that, you know.
46:39
But these are people who probably are highly masking and
46:43
or don't have the kind of support needs that some of you
46:46
know. The irony being that there's
46:49
some neurodivergent conditions. If you're diagnosed with it, you
46:52
can't join the Army. No.
46:55
So you know that. It's a concern for my son.
46:58
He wants to go in there any RAF and I mean offline.
47:04
Perhaps one day I'll sit and have a chat with you about him
47:06
because he's going through what he's being put through.
47:09
The moment is ridiculous. IQ of 134 and allowed, does home
47:17
schooling, allowed to use technology for his home
47:20
schooling, does well, gets to exams.
47:26
No, we can't. We can't accommodate that.
47:28
Could you maybe fly him back to England so we can go to an exam
47:31
centre and have some? And I'm like, listen, why do you
47:35
think he does online home schooling?
47:38
Just think about it for a second.
47:42
Yeah, I'll take your point. It's not us, it's just the.
47:45
Exam board, the exam board set these roles.
47:48
You know, my son sat his exams at College in a cupboard, in an
47:52
actual cupboard because I push like mad for him to have he's,
47:58
he's ADHD, autistic ADHD also has a tick disorder.
48:02
And so we knew that if he was in a exam hall, he would be
48:06
distracting other kids. It just wouldn't work.
48:09
No, totally. So that solution was we can't
48:12
get him a separate room, but what we'll do is we'll put him
48:14
in this cupboard where we normally store all the chairs
48:17
and tables, and we'll just have the door open so someone could
48:19
keep an eye on him. Ridiculous.
48:23
Just do you think? Do you think we'll get in almost
48:26
getting to the point where like some children are actually, I
48:31
use the word safer, but I'm putting my fingers in the air
48:34
when I say that she thinks that some of them are actually safe
48:36
for learning outside of school and in it.
48:38
Yeah, 100%. Yeah.
48:41
And I don't know, I'm saying it because it goes against
48:44
everything was raised on, you know, and I and I think that our
48:48
children, young people deserve an education.
48:51
They deserve to be able to give, to have access to being able to
48:54
take qualifications. They deserve to be accommodated
48:59
so that they can do that. They shouldn't be segregated.
49:02
They shouldn't be bothered. And if we're really going to do
49:07
that, we're not going to do that in academies where there's 2 1/2
49:10
thousand kids rubbing and pocket against each other every 50
49:12
minutes because they're moving classrooms like, you know, in
49:17
silence, by the way, with your tie done up and your shirt
49:21
tucked in. Fuck's sake.
49:25
Right, this is this is this is this is a great one.
49:28
And this will probably be all over Instagram.
49:31
So I am now going to let you free right now.
49:34
OK, right. I use the I use the analogy of
49:38
my first question about the door opening.
49:40
So your door is just open right now.
49:42
And guess who's walked through your door?
49:44
Is it Bridget Phillipson? It's our best friend Bridget.
49:49
She has, she's just walked in. She's just flipped the kettle
49:52
on, right? She made you a brew and she sat
49:56
down right in front of you right now you got 10 minutes with her.
50:02
And she says, Heidi, listen, I want you to fix sand for me.
50:10
Where would you even start? Give just let's, let's let's
50:13
narrow this down a bit. Give me three things that so if
50:18
you write that magic wand and I've given it you now three
50:21
things that you do right now, three things you're changing
50:24
instantly that you think would possibly make a difference.
50:28
After I sacked Bridget, you mean?
50:32
After you've sacked her and got that PR budget back.
50:35
Yeah, and, and come the fuck on, Bridget.
50:41
I mean, I'd, you know, have nothing against her personally
50:44
and, you know, but yeah, fuck, if I had a magic wand.
50:54
Sorry, the dog's just scratching the mouth.
50:56
What's wrong? If I had a magic wand and I
51:01
could fix send. I mean, I think the obvious and
51:07
the thing that we all say and then we're told we can't do it
51:10
because it's too expensive is that class sizes are way too
51:12
big. We want to be halving class
51:15
sizes, you know, that would make a huge difference to every
51:20
single pupil immediately. And the teachers.
51:25
And the teachers. And the teachers.
51:28
So that would be the first one. The second thing that I would
51:37
like to say is, and again, this is a culture shift is the move
51:43
away from this hierarchical system.
51:45
Hierarchical system that we have in schools where you know,
51:49
you've got your your senior leadership team and then you've
51:52
got your head of years and then you've got your teachers and
51:54
then you've got your Tasmania. And it's very hard to
51:57
breakthrough that. Parents don't really get, you
52:00
know, you have to join the PTA or the board.
52:04
I lasted about four months on the Board of Governors at my
52:07
school's Academy. And.
52:09
I ended up, I didn't get sacked, but I ended up having to leave
52:13
because I was scared I was going to punch somebody and I was very
52:16
inconvenient. You know that theory of like, if
52:23
you want to make change, you do that from either in above or
52:26
beyond. For some reason I thought I
52:28
could do it from in the system that whoops, no, but that thing
52:33
of like the people who get heard of the people who say yes all
52:36
the time and the people who don't say yes don't get heard
52:40
that get sidelined. I get what you mean about all
52:43
these, all these layers, though. I I, I get it, you know.
52:46
Especially in academies in the Academy system.
52:49
Like I would scrap academies straight off.
52:51
I think academies of academies in the UK is probably the
52:55
biggest mistake we've made in education in the past 50 years.
53:00
You know, the moment you turn schools into businesses is the
53:07
moment you lose sight of what's really important for our
53:10
children and young people. And that's ultimately what
53:12
academies are. They're businesses.
53:15
And when you're monetizing education like that and when
53:18
you're basing all of your, how you measure attainment and how
53:23
you measure achievement is based on league tables and Ofsted
53:26
reports, you lose sight of those individual kids in classrooms.
53:30
And I think that we will look back on the academisation in our
53:36
system and we will realise what a massive fuck up that is.
53:40
So I would turn the tide on that immediately.
53:44
So class size is academisation. And this sounds a little bit
53:48
weird, but actually I don't think it is.
53:50
I think if we moved towards a system that prioritised
53:57
autonomy, mental health and relationships first before
54:03
achievements, exam results, league tables, it would take a
54:08
massive shift. You know, I don't see, I don't,
54:11
I don't think we need to have kids separated by age group or
54:14
by attainment levels. I think we should set, we should
54:17
be batching children according to what they're excited by, what
54:20
they're good at, what, where their passions lie.
54:23
But like, that's what they. Do which is what they do the
54:25
mastery schools in Australia, right?
54:27
It's pretty radical. It is radical, but it works.
54:31
It works. It works fantastic.
54:33
But you know, and I think that we, I think we just have to stop
54:41
treating kids like this thing of there is a, there is a systemic
54:47
belief within the education system.
54:49
I'm not saying that individual teachers believe this, but this
54:51
is across the board. This is kind of like systematic,
54:55
like doctrine and culture that kids are right little bastards.
55:02
And if you don't get them in hand, they'll ruin their lives
55:07
and everyone else's life. And I just don't subscribe to
55:09
that. I think that we need to move
55:12
towards actually, there's so much potential in our children,
55:16
young people, and we need to stop trying to put them in a
55:19
straitjacket. You know, we need to treat them
55:22
with a bit more respect and autonomy.
55:26
We have to trust parents more. But I just, I mean the way that
55:31
I've not even given you three, I've given you about 50 there,
55:34
but. No, it's pretty no what you're
55:36
saying and. I actually don't think that
55:41
we'll have enough to reform with a lowercase R within our
55:45
education system to make the differences we need to make the
55:50
same kids. The thing that scares me is that
55:54
historically we've had the freedom at least to choose to
55:57
home educate the most recent children, well beings.
56:01
But the Children and well-being Bill that's been passed through
56:03
Parliament robs parents of that choice.
56:08
And we're now in a situation where if any family has had some
56:11
social work involvement, they don't have the automatic right
56:14
to home educate any longer because of inverted commas
56:18
safeguarding. But you know, many of our
56:22
neurodivergent families have have social work involvement
56:25
because we need some extra support to help our kids access
56:28
the community outside of school time or we need care or we need,
56:33
you know, a needs assessment. That means that we've got a
56:35
social worker to help us navigate the admin of having a
56:37
disabled child. You know, none of that is a
56:40
safeguarding concern. So I'm really, I'm frightened
56:45
for the next couple of generations of SEND families.
56:50
The new that rope is tightening and our freedom and our ability
56:56
to make our own decisions about our own children.
56:59
We're not trusted. The education system doesn't
57:01
trust parents to know what's right for their kids.
57:04
They, they treat us like we're all thick.
57:07
They treat us like, you know, well, we've studied education
57:09
and we understand what pedagogy is, you know, never mind that
57:14
you gave birth to this young person.
57:16
We know what's best. Listen to us.
57:19
That really frightens me. That kind of like authoritarian
57:24
approach. So do you think I tried to nod
57:27
then? Like Bridget, by the way, and
57:29
Dutton's and ours when you were talking, but I'm not very good
57:32
at. Are you wearing sensible shoes
57:34
and pleated stirs? I really really like I.
57:39
That's really bitchy. Sorry, she was on a podcast and
57:43
I was like, why are you? Just why are you asking her
57:46
questions? Like go at her, ask her.
57:49
Do you know? What The thing is is that even
57:52
when they've lined up these influencers and these, I think
57:57
another podcast you were talking about once those people have
58:00
asked really direct questions, not fucking answering them and
58:09
unbelievable. You're just like this reads are
58:11
so disingenuous now. Don't give us the opportunity to
58:15
ask a question and then just completely side sidestep it.
58:19
You know, we're not going. You know, I understand that you
58:22
think that class sizes need to be smaller, but what we're
58:25
really focusing on is like, great, we'll take breakfast
58:30
clubs. That's Brill.
58:31
But also let's talk about the fact that breakfast clubs aren't
58:34
accessible to sand kids because our kids who need one to one,
58:39
their one to one support is not extended for them to be able to
58:41
attend breakfast clubs. So great they all get a
58:45
breakfast club but our kids A1 to 1 can't be there because they
58:48
haven't got a. One to one totally.
58:49
And and you know, when you say that that's that's what needs to
58:54
be said like, but they obviously it's the government that are
58:58
doing organizing these PR type things, these, these, and they
59:02
probably chop it off. Because if it was me, if I asked
59:05
that question and I got that response back from her, I would
59:08
Chuck exactly what you've just said right on the end what she's
59:11
just said. But they'd probably chop it off
59:13
and we never. Let's be honest, we wouldn't get
59:15
in those rooms. Jay No.
59:16
No, it wouldn't let us in. So I've got two more questions
59:20
for you. Let's do this one again in your
59:27
opinion. I have my opinion on this, the
59:30
SEND crisis, because that's, if we're being honest, you and I
59:33
right now, that's exactly what this is.
59:35
It is actually a crisis. You know, you won't hear anyone
59:39
in, in in London labeling as that, but it is, it's a crisis.
59:45
Is it a parenting, A parenting crisis, an education crisis, or
59:54
a political crisis? I think that everything is
1:00:02
political. Decisions are made by people who
1:00:07
have the power to make decisions.
1:00:09
That impacts the electorate across the board, and decisions
1:00:14
are made by people who have the power to make those decisions
1:00:17
not in the best interest of the electorate.
1:00:20
The decisions are made in the best interest of GDP and in the
1:00:27
best interest of. Profit of companies, of people
1:00:32
who are not necessarily bribing, but they hold influence in the
1:00:37
halls of power. And decisions are made that will
1:00:40
benefit the people who have the most money in society.
1:00:45
And the people have the most influence in society.
1:00:48
And decisions are made that don't take care of the most
1:00:53
vulnerable and poorest people in society because we have no
1:00:57
voice. And like, I'm not the most poor.
1:01:00
Don't get me wrong. I have a huge amount of
1:01:03
privilege. I know that I do.
1:01:04
You know, I'm educated, I'm white, I'm cisgendered.
1:01:09
I'm, you know, straight presenting, even though I don't
1:01:11
identify as straight. You know, there's lots of
1:01:14
things, there's lots of interceptions that I do not
1:01:17
experience, you know, But when you start thinking about people
1:01:20
who are, who haven't had the benefit of, you know, a good
1:01:25
education because they're multiple generations of
1:01:29
undiagnosed or unrecognised additional needs, or they
1:01:32
haven't had the benefit of having white skin or they
1:01:36
haven't had the benefit of being straight or straight presenting,
1:01:41
or they haven't had the benefit of being able bodied, you know,
1:01:44
fair enough. That's not my case now, but it
1:01:46
was for a great part of my life. You know, they're not
1:01:49
experiencing poverty, you know, like I have been on my ass
1:01:56
financially, but I would say it's fair to say that I've never
1:01:59
been, I've never been, I've never been living in poverty.
1:02:02
You know, you cannot underestimate the impact that
1:02:05
has on people. You know, if you don't even have
1:02:08
the money for a bus fare to get your kids to school, no amount
1:02:12
of free breakfast clubs is going to help you.
1:02:15
You can't get a job because the system is set up that if you
1:02:19
don't have 5 GCS ES, you're going to really struggle to get
1:02:22
work. It doesn't matter how hard you
1:02:24
try and how hard how much you want to get a job.
1:02:26
You know, they're talking at the moment about all these children.
1:02:29
Young people are not in education or training.
1:02:31
I've got young people in my life who have huge potential and do
1:02:36
have 5 GCS ES and they can't. You know, people say why don't
1:02:38
you just get a job in Tesco? Do you know how hard it is to
1:02:40
get a job in Tesco? Yeah.
1:02:44
You've got to, you've got to fill all the paperwork in, you
1:02:47
know, and like in my case, like, it's not that easy.
1:02:49
And you've got to have retail experience, you've got to have
1:02:52
retail experience to get a job in retail.
1:02:55
It's, you know, and whereas when we were kids, I had a job in
1:02:58
Woolworths when I was 12. Yeah, I would be illegal in the
1:03:01
butchers. You know, it's the sweetest in
1:03:03
the butchers. Yeah.
1:03:05
Oh, we had a paper round. Or, you know, we wept up at the
1:03:08
hairdressers at the weekend. Now don't get me wrong, I don't
1:03:10
think child labour is the route we want to be going down, but.
1:03:13
No, no, But I know what you mean.
1:03:15
I know what you mean. And and yeah, they, they, I same
1:03:18
as you. I worry.
1:03:19
I really worry. It's.
1:03:21
Well, it is political and we shouldn't pretend that it isn't.
1:03:25
But politicians do pretend that it isn't.
1:03:27
They do pretend that it's down to poor, poor parenting and
1:03:32
people you know who are sponges living off benefits and deciding
1:03:35
that they don't want their job. It's bullshit.
1:03:37
It's not true. OK, so I know that they'll
1:03:42
listen to this. So I told you about that family
1:03:45
that spoke to me the other day. They're lying awake at night
1:03:50
worrying about their child. What does Heidi want them to
1:03:54
know? That that is completely valid
1:04:00
and the way that you feel given your circumstances makes
1:04:04
absolute sense, and that you need to pour as much grace and
1:04:11
self compassion on that situation as you can and cut
1:04:15
yourself a bit of slack. You know you are doing the best
1:04:19
that you can with what you've got, and it's not true that just
1:04:23
trying harder is all you need to do.
1:04:26
That's just not fucking true. We're not all on a level playing
1:04:30
field. We're not all fortunate.
1:04:33
We don't all have the level of privilege that other people
1:04:35
have. And it is not true that if your
1:04:41
children are unable to go to school, that that's your fault.
1:04:46
It's not true. It's a lie, you know, And I
1:04:49
think the thing that I really, the thing that got me through,
1:04:55
you know, and I have laying awake at night, you know, I
1:04:58
speak about it in the book. After Theo was out of his
1:05:01
crisis, I had a crisis. I ended up in a doctor's
1:05:04
surgery. This probably needs to trigger
1:05:06
warning, but I'm going to talk about significant mental health
1:05:09
challenges. I ended up on a doctor's surgery
1:05:12
on Christmas Eve, telling the doctor that I was scared that
1:05:15
over Christmas and New Year, I might try to end my own life.
1:05:19
And because I didn't know what would happen to my son, I might
1:05:21
try and end his life as well. Holy.
1:05:25
Shit. And that was a direct result of
1:05:30
what we'd experienced in the education system.
1:05:32
That was why that was happening, you know, so.
1:05:36
How many? So how many more are going
1:05:37
through that, right? Now we are losing children and
1:05:41
young people and we are losing parents to suicide or to health
1:05:47
conditions that develop because of the intense stress that
1:05:50
they're under. And So what got me through, I
1:05:53
mean, that doctor was freaking amazing.
1:05:56
She made me come into the surgery.
1:05:58
The surgery was closed on Christmas Day, but she made me
1:06:00
come in every day for a week from Boxing Day.
1:06:03
And she kept me alive that week for sure.
1:06:06
And I'll be forever grateful to her.
1:06:09
And but the thing that got me through beyond that was having
1:06:14
people, having a community. I had people who said to me,
1:06:18
please go and see the doctor. We're really worried about you.
1:06:21
It's OK to go and talk to them about this.
1:06:24
And I had people around me who said this is not your fault and
1:06:30
it is OK for you to just focus on getting through this and
1:06:33
getting your kids through this. Yeah, you know when we are.
1:06:38
And you don't work around, you, don't you?
1:06:40
And it's important that you had, that you look at it, you had.
1:06:42
That I'm really. Looking at that, yeah, it
1:06:46
worries me that that some don't. And and that's why I do this.
1:06:49
I do this because, and I'm going to ask if it's OK.
1:06:53
You know you'll find Heidi on Instagram.
1:06:57
Watch some of us stuff. It's beautiful to watch and I'll
1:06:59
make you smile. Some of it's hilarious,
1:07:01
particularly stuff about our friend Bridget.
1:07:03
But anyway. Come the fuck are you admit?
1:07:06
Yeah, If someone wants to reach out to you, what's the best way
1:07:10
for them to get in touch with you?
1:07:11
Are you OK with that? And.
1:07:13
The best thing to do because I'm shocking at replying to
1:07:16
messages. ADHD for the win.
1:07:21
The best thing to do is to come and find me on my socials and
1:07:24
come and find your way to our Facebook community.
1:07:26
We have a Facebook community. Just search on Facebook.
1:07:28
Your child is not broken and we've got nearly 14,000 families
1:07:32
in there crashing. Tell us what's going on and
1:07:35
we'll look after you. That community is.
1:07:37
All the links will be down. I'll put them all down below,
1:07:40
but let's Heidi first of all. I went quiet then because I was
1:07:45
welling up a bit and I still am now, so I've got to get through.
1:07:48
That's 2 seconds. You are without a doubt I, I'm
1:07:54
not actually. No, let me just let me just tone
1:07:57
that down a bit. You are #2 because Jimmy Carr is
1:08:00
number one, right? Jimmy Carr gets me through the
1:08:02
day when I'm up in a moment like now I I watch a bit of Jimmy
1:08:07
Carr on Instagram because he just gets me through the fact he
1:08:10
can answer questions like that, right?
1:08:12
I paid my taxes though. Yeah.
1:08:15
Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah, there is that #2 though is
1:08:18
you. You are my second go to.
1:08:21
I quite often stick my phone up and go jam.
1:08:24
But he's my wife. Look, look at this.
1:08:26
And honestly, you creased me up, so I know how busy you are and
1:08:31
I'm honoured that you've come on.
1:08:34
I'm going to get this out everywhere I can because I just
1:08:37
want these people to get help and know I don't want them to
1:08:41
be. And in that situation, it's
1:08:44
important to me. So thank you so much.
1:08:46
I've just got one last question that I ask everybody and it's an
1:08:49
important one for me. What does What does thick no
1:08:52
more mean to you? So while we've been talking,
1:08:56
I've been thinking about the experience of parents and carers
1:09:00
when they go and ask for help, right?
1:09:04
So when they turn up at school and they've made an appointment
1:09:07
to see whoever it is that they're seeing, they go in there
1:09:11
expecting support or they go in there to more powerfully
1:09:15
advocate for their child. If they know, if they have a
1:09:17
little bit of working knowledge of the system.
1:09:19
And they come out of those rooms feeling deflated and stupid, you
1:09:24
know, and they and they tell themselves that they were stupid
1:09:28
for thinking that they get the support or they have been gas
1:09:32
lit by the people in that room and genuinely made to feel like
1:09:35
that's it's their fault. And so when I think about sick
1:09:38
no more, that's what I'm thinking about.
1:09:40
I'm thinking about the parents and carers who need to be in
1:09:45
community with other parents and carers.
1:09:47
And, you know, there are lots of communities like that and ours
1:09:49
is one of them. If, if, if this rings your bell,
1:09:52
come and find us. But they need to know you're not
1:09:55
thick. You can trust your gut.
1:09:58
You do know what you're doing. You know your kid better than
1:10:00
anyone else on this planet. Now, none of us are perfect
1:10:03
parents, and there may well be parents who are not getting it
1:10:07
right. Right?
1:10:08
Because nobody gives you a freaking manual for how to get
1:10:12
this. No, there isn't.
1:10:15
And and if there was, it be written by a rich white man who
1:10:19
doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about anyway, because
1:10:21
that's the way that works, right?
1:10:22
But you are not stupid and you do know in your gut what your
1:10:30
child or young person needs and if people make you feel thick
1:10:34
about that, it is OK to go. No I'm sorry you, you've got
1:10:39
this wrong. Like that's what that means for
1:10:43
me. Beautiful.
1:10:45
Listen, you're a beautiful person.
1:10:47
Thank you so very, very much. I'll put all the links you can
1:10:52
find. Heidi, please don't suffer in
1:10:55
silence. And like she's just said, you're
1:10:57
not thick, you know, don't ever think you are.
1:11:00
Ask the questions. Push, push, push.
1:11:04
Listen, Heidi, thank you, love you.
1:11:06
Thank you so much. Thanks for.
1:11:07
Having me I really enjoyed. That you're so welcome.