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4 MiG Kills, 1 Fight · So There I Was

0:00
On the 18th of November, 1952,
0:02
US Navy Lieutenant Royce
0:04
Williams and his wingman were
0:06
part of a combat air patrol
0:08
above the Sea of Japan, when
0:10
seven bogeys were seen, even
0:12
though completely outclassed.
0:14
The Americans climbed to 26,000
0:17
feet, Williams pulled hard left
0:19
and lined up on MiG no.
0:20
4, he fired a short burst and
0:22
the MiG went down, followed by
0:24
Williams' wingman. Williams was
0:26
now alone, and facing six
0:28
MiG-15s.
0:30
You're listening to the podcast,
0:31
so there I was. It's how all
0:34
great aviation tales begin.
0:37
Welcome to episode 45, Fig. 45.
0:41
That's a good caliber, too. It
0:43
is a good caliber. And, uh,
0:46
although I think the caliber was
0:47
a little bigger, what's the
0:48
title of this show? Four MiG
0:51
kills, one fight? Yeah. Yes. I
0:55
didn't ask what the caliber of
0:56
the cannon was on that F9F
0:58
Panther that Captain Williams
0:59
was flying that day. Well, then,
1:01
Lieutenant Williams. Fig, I
1:02
don't know about you, and no
1:03
disrespect to all of our other
1:05
guests, but that has been not
1:07
only the highlight of our
1:09
podcast, it's one of the
1:11
highlights of my life. Almost 98.
1:13
Sharp as a tack. Took out four
1:15
MiGs in a 1v7 fight.
1:18
Possibly a fifth.
1:19
And it could never be talked
1:21
about. He kept it silent for 50,
1:23
more than 50 years. Didn't even
1:25
tell his wife or his children
1:26
about it until it was
1:27
declassified. Our gratefulness,
1:29
our appreciation to Captain
1:31
Williams for joining us, and I
1:32
hope he will come back. It
1:33
sounds like he may want to, so
1:35
that was good.
1:36
Well, he, his, his stories, uh,
1:39
just, well, first of all, we, we
1:41
spent a lot of time on the, on
1:43
the MiG engagement, but his
1:45
career spanned 37 years. And he
1:50
flew, well, let's just say this.
1:51
He, if it wasn't made, he didn't
1:53
fly it. If it was a fighter.
1:54
From World War II, uh, through
1:58
Vietnam, if it, I mean, really.
2:00
Uh, because he did an exchange
2:03
with the Air Force, so he flew
2:04
Air Force metal. Like I said, if,
2:06
uh, you could list the jets you
2:08
didn't fly, it'd probably be a
2:10
shorter list. Right. That was,
2:12
yeah, that was pretty much spot
2:14
on. I, I was, I got half a page
2:16
worth of airplane notes here. So,
2:18
that was awesome. You know,
2:21
Hellcat, Bearcat, Corsair,
2:24
Panthers, F9F, Cougars, F86,
2:29
F100, F4A4. And I'm sure, uh,
2:34
did I say F100? Yeah, you did. I
2:36
think I did. Yeah. Uh, but, and
2:38
the, and then out of nowhere, he
2:40
starts talking about, oh, being
2:42
on fire in an F4, two engines.
2:45
Uh, they had lost a bunch of
2:46
them already and everybody had
2:48
jumped out and he thought, well,
2:50
this one's still flying. I'm
2:51
gonna try to bring it back. And
2:54
his backseat or jumped out. I'm
2:56
out of here.
2:59
But, uh, you know, he, uh, they,
3:01
they were able to figure out
3:03
what was going on with these
3:04
planes because he brought one
3:05
back. Probably saved some lives.
3:07
I could be wrong. Saved some
3:08
more lives. About crossing the
3:10
pond. Oh my God.
3:11
What a, what an amazing day.
3:14
And the world's smallest...
3:14
Let's just get out of the way
3:16
and listen to what he has to say.
3:17
On the tanker.
3:18
Here he is without further ado,
3:20
Captain Williams.
3:21
Oh, and to the tanker crew who,
3:22
uh, did that. Thanks a lot. We
3:25
really appreciated that.
3:28
I'm just kidding. No matter.
3:39
There I was crossing the pond
3:41
and you could see that I wasn't
3:43
exactly fun.
3:44
So there I was.
3:47
Which is how all great aviation
3:49
tales start. And this is going
3:52
to be an amazing aviation tale.
3:54
This is Fig. Welcome to the
3:56
podcast. So there I was with my
3:58
co-horse, Repeat. Where are you
4:00
today, Repeat? I'm in an
4:01
undisclosed location.
4:04
Somewhere in the country. I
4:06
don't know. I'm, I'm, I'm warm
4:07
and dry, but, uh, where I am
4:09
doesn't matter. Where we are is
4:11
with a legend of naval aviation.
4:14
Yes. And we are so honored. This
4:17
is going to be the greatest of
4:19
aviation tales. Captain Williams,
4:22
United States Navy retired
4:24
recipient of the Navy Cross.
4:26
Captain Williams. Welcome, sir.
4:28
Thank you so much. So Captain
4:32
Williams, do you mind me stating
4:33
your age, sir?
4:34
No, I'm, uh, about one month
4:36
away from 98. Beautiful.
4:39
That is amazing. So amazed. So I
4:43
read a little bit through your
4:44
bio. You went in the Navy
4:47
shortly after Pearl Harbor, was
4:49
it?
4:50
I first joined the Army. I was
4:53
16. But when I turned 17, I was
4:56
eligible for the V5 aviation
4:59
cadet program in the Navy. And I
5:02
made the switch. Nice.
5:05
That is awesome. So how did you
5:07
become interested in aviation,
5:09
sir?
5:10
Well, I first flew when I was
5:12
four and, uh, barnstormers would
5:15
come through the area. My
5:19
brother and I would run out to
5:20
greet them. Uh, a friend of mine
5:24
became a barnstormer. And for
5:27
the sake of flying, I'd go with
5:29
him to county fairs, sell
5:31
tickets, wipe the airplane down,
5:33
enjoy the aerobatic
5:35
demonstration, and, uh, at least
5:37
get to fly both ways with me.
5:40
Wow. That's pretty awesome.
5:41
That's very cool. Do you
5:43
remember what kind of airplane
5:44
was it? Yes. Uh, travel air.
5:47
Okay. Travel air. Nice. Nice.
5:51
You became eligible to join the
5:52
air cadet program. Can you walk
5:54
us through what that
5:55
commissioning source was like?
5:56
Did you have to go to boot camp
5:58
and then OCS? How did that work
6:00
in those days?
6:02
Yes. I came into the Navy as a
6:04
selectee for aviation, but I
6:07
went to boot camp and following
6:09
that to a squadron at Corpus
6:11
Christi waiting space around the
6:16
end of 1943. It happened and I
6:20
switched into a cadet program
6:23
and started in the various
6:25
schools that, uh, encompassed.
6:29
Okay.
6:29
Oh, that's amazing. Captain
6:31
Williams, what aircraft did you
6:32
train in initially? Uh, through
6:35
your... An M3. M3. Okay. And
6:39
then when you got to the fleet,
6:42
what year was it that you
6:43
actually got to a fleet squadron?
6:45
76, 45, uh, 45. Late 45.
6:51
So all the action was over.
6:53
Yes. Yes.
6:56
All that training and nothing to
6:57
do with it, right, sir? Can't
7:00
blame me. That's probably good.
7:04
That's probably a good thing.
7:05
There were an awful lot of
7:07
casualties in aviation training,
7:12
especially the Army Air Force
7:14
lost an awful lot of their
7:16
cadets. Uh, not so bad in the
7:19
Navy. I lost a few friends, but,
7:22
uh, basically it went as
7:25
scheduled.
7:26
Yeah, unfortunately that, that
7:28
hasn't changed a whole lot. We
7:30
continue to, uh, uh, to lose
7:32
people in training. Just true.
7:35
So you got to your first fleet
7:37
squadron at the end of 1945. Did
7:41
you stay on active duty in the
7:43
Navy or were you, did you go
7:44
into the reserves?
7:46
No, I was a reserve, but I was
7:49
selected for rigging the Navy
7:51
and I remained in it for 37
7:55
years. All right.
7:56
Can't stick with anything. Can
7:58
you, sir? Couldn't even do the
7:59
full 40.
8:02
Wow. They kicked me out.
8:05
Oh, there you go. Right. What
8:07
was the training like both to
8:09
get your wings and then
8:10
afterward? I imagine it was,
8:12
well, let me, let me just not
8:14
imagine anything.
8:15
This is before simulator. You
8:17
didn't have a simulator to sit
8:18
in and fly before you got in the
8:20
airplane, right? They pretty
8:20
much handed you an ATOPS manual
8:22
and said, go, go get it.
8:24
Basically, he was just showing
8:26
me how to start.
8:28
Oh, my gosh. They'd get you in
8:35
the cockpit. Went to a few
8:39
interesting items like stick and
8:41
throttle. Tell you how to start
8:43
it. Good luck. There's an
8:48
attitude indicator, a slip
8:54
indicator to keep the ball in
8:56
the center. Sure. Sure. And a
8:59
great view. We'll just look
9:00
around.
9:02
Keep the blue side up and step
9:06
on the ball, right? Right. Yes.
9:09
Sure. Before we get into the
9:12
bigger story that we first read
9:13
about you, I want to ask, do you
9:15
have any memories? What was the
9:18
funniest thing you saw either in
9:19
boot camp or officer candidate
9:21
school or in Navy flight
9:23
training or for that matter, at
9:25
any time in your Navy career?
9:27
Might have been funny. Might
9:28
have been funny to some people,
9:29
but it was serious. I came out
9:32
late for a flight in a stearman.
9:37
The instructor was ready to go,
9:39
so I jumped in, and away we went.
9:42
Wow. So, the next thing he did,
9:45
he got up to a couple of
9:46
thousand feet, and he did a slow
9:48
roll. I hadn't fastened my
9:52
parachute, and I hadn't buckled
9:54
it in, so I was hanging on to
9:57
anything I could grab. Oh, dear
9:59
God. Stay below.
10:02
While you were in this slow roll,
10:07
you were about to fall out of
10:08
the cockpit. Yes, yes. No canopy
10:11
to stop me. No. And you weren't
10:14
even strapped into the parachute.
10:16
That is terrifying.
10:18
Terrifying. Yeah. That's right
10:20
up there. The most terrifying
10:21
stories we've heard.
10:25
That's terrifying.
10:27
That's probably one of many.
10:29
Oh, my goodness. Well, if it
10:32
gets worse than that, I don't
10:33
even want to know about it,
10:34
because now my palms are
10:36
sweating just thinking about
10:37
that. I have nightmares about
10:38
things like that.
10:38
That's like the nightmare
10:40
showing up to school naked? No.
10:41
Going flying without strapping
10:42
in. Yeah.
10:46
In an open cockpit, upside down.
10:50
But, well, I guess let's get
10:53
into it. The fact is, you did
10:55
find yourself in a far more
10:57
terrifying situation. Hey, wait.
10:58
Before you go there, Captain
11:00
Williams, so your first flight,
11:01
fleet squadron that you were in,
11:04
what aircraft was that? What
11:06
aircraft did you fly?
11:07
Hellcats. I flew SBD in training,
11:11
but then I was selected for
11:13
fighters, went to 6F training
11:18
down at Opelaka, Miami, Florida,
11:22
and carrier qualified on the USS
11:25
Ranger CV4, Captain McCain.
11:29
Okay. Commanding. So that was
11:31
Senator John McCain's father or
11:33
grandfather? That would have
11:34
been his father. Grandfather.
11:35
Grandfather. Grandfather. Okay.
11:37
Grandfather.
11:38
So Hellcats. So Hellcats, your
11:40
first fleet squadron. So did you
11:42
fly Hellcats until you
11:44
transitioned to jets or did you
11:45
fly something in between
11:47
Hellcats and F9Fs?
11:49
I flew Corsairs. I flew Corsairs
11:53
out of Los Alamitos. Well, an
11:57
interesting thing. I first went
11:59
on the FDR shortly after that,
12:02
transferred to the Princeton.
12:04
The Princeton was carrying
12:07
Emmanuel Cuisin's body, the
12:09
president of the Philippines,
12:12
who spent much of the year in
12:14
the United States and died here.
12:17
And through the Panama Canal,
12:19
San Diego, there we got a group
12:22
of Naval Academy, Lieutenant JGs,
12:28
that had just gotten their wings.
12:30
We had spent tours in surface
12:33
craft in combat. And we were
12:36
going from a support squadron, a
12:39
status where the maintenance was
12:41
done by a maintenance squadron.
12:43
Now, a squadron was going to do
12:45
everything. And we needed
12:47
trained department heads and so
12:50
forth. So they stepped in and I
12:53
stepped out. I went to Los
12:55
Alamitos. My brother was
12:58
stationed over at El Toro, just
12:59
a short distance away. And
13:01
matter of fact, when I did my
13:04
initial flying, he was the guy
13:08
that gave me the checkout. Is
13:11
that right?
13:11
Yeah. In the Corsair? So if you
13:15
had to pick. Those are cool
13:17
airplanes. I would gladly cut
13:20
off one of my testicles to fly
13:21
either one of those aircraft
13:22
right now. I had a better one.
13:26
Following that, I went into the
13:29
F-8 Bearcats. My favorite. Oh,
13:34
man. What great airplanes. I am
13:37
so jealous. Right. I made two
13:41
South Pacific tours in the
13:45
Princeton in fighter squadrons.
13:48
And I came back from that. And
13:50
in as much as I had been
13:52
selected for regular Navy, they
13:55
wanted all their pilots to have
13:57
at least two years of college.
13:58
And I was out of high school. So
14:01
they sent me to the University
14:02
of Minnesota for 18 months. And
14:05
I got a four-year degree. And
14:09
they sent me on to a PT school.
14:11
Okay. What's PT school?
14:15
PG.
14:15
Postgraduate. Postgraduate. Okay.
14:17
Oh, PG. Postgraduate. Got it.
14:19
Okay. So you got a four-year
14:22
degree in 18 months. And then
14:23
you went to postgraduate school.
14:25
Boy, you couldn't do that today.
14:27
No. Repeat. No. I couldn't do
14:29
that. So your undergraduate
14:33
degree, would you say, was the
14:34
University of Minnesota?
14:36
Yes. Was that because you hail
14:38
from South Dakota originally,
14:39
right?
14:40
Yes. At age 11, my dad got his
14:44
World War II bonus. And it
14:47
allowed him to select to run a
14:52
grocery store on his own. And
14:54
looking around, we found
14:58
appropriate storefronts on the
15:00
other side of Big Peninsula Lake,
15:03
the border lake between South
15:05
Dakota and Minnesota. So just a
15:09
short distance from where I grew
15:12
up, but now in Minnesota.
15:14
Nice. Well, now that we've
15:17
established he's flown every
15:18
single aircraft, I thought.
15:20
Every cool airplane on the
15:22
planet, right? Right. So after,
15:25
I guess after Corsairs, you
15:28
transitioned to F9Fs at some
15:29
point? Yeah. After you got all
15:32
educated up.
15:34
Right. So the jet transition,
15:36
how long was that?
15:40
Well, it was in a squadron. It
15:43
wasn't a transition. It was
15:45
somebody told me how to start
15:46
the airplane. Yeah.
15:49
Repeat. This is right out of
15:52
those old squadron files that I
15:54
found where they transitioned to
15:57
jets in one day. They handed
15:59
them. Yeah. No two-seat F9s,
16:04
correct, sir?
16:05
I know. Here are the keys. Don't
16:08
screw it up. Oh, my gosh. Wow. I
16:14
didn't fly two-seat airplanes
16:18
until I got in the Phantom.
16:20
Unbelievable. No kidding. So
16:26
what time frame does that put
16:27
you at when you first got into
16:28
the F9? Is this late 40s, early
16:30
50s? 1952. Okay, so it was 52.
16:34
You were brand new to the
16:35
airplane then, or relatively
16:36
brand new to the airplane when
16:37
you found yourself in the North
16:40
Pacific off the coast of North
16:41
Korea.
16:43
Yes, I suppose I had almost 100
16:48
hours.
16:51
Almost. Almost 100 hours. That's
16:55
crazy. Because what you did was,
16:59
well, I guess let's get into it.
17:00
Can you tell us about that day
17:02
when you woke up, what the brief
17:04
was like, what you were supposed
17:05
to be doing, and then what
17:07
happened to find yourself
17:09
completing one of the greatest
17:11
accomplishments in the history
17:12
of aviation, all aviation?
17:15
Yeah. We arrived at our standard
17:22
operating area off the coast of
17:26
Korea at about the border, 38th
17:33
parallel, border between North
17:35
and South Korea. And pretty much
17:39
the Navy was responsible for the
17:43
war on the eastern half of North
17:49
Korea. It didn't allow us to
17:52
spend a lot of time and
17:54
attention to some of the more
17:57
potent targets near the Yalo
18:00
River, which was the border
18:02
between China and North Korea,
18:05
and Russia, Soviet Union, and
18:08
North Korea.
18:12
Admiral Jocko Clark, who's Task
18:15
Force 77, came up with the idea
18:18
of moving a pretty good-sized
18:21
task force north to where these
18:24
targets would be well within our
18:26
range. So that night, a group of
18:29
three carriers and escorts,
18:32
maybe 20, including the
18:35
battleship that was the command
18:40
center for Jocko Clark, moved up
18:44
off Changin, a city on the coast,
18:48
a major city on the coast of
18:51
North Korea, and probably about
18:54
100 miles south of Vladivostok.
18:56
And we were out from Changin,
19:02
and arriving in the morning, I
19:04
was on the first flight, and
19:07
with carrier airplanes from all
19:11
three carriers, and I was in the
19:13
very first group that hit the
19:15
target at a city of Orion that
19:18
had a lot of
19:22
manufacturing and warehousing.
19:26
So we pretty much tore that up
19:30
while the people across the
19:32
river, the Soviets, got pretty
19:35
excited and a lot of chatter,
19:37
and they launched a lot of
19:40
airplanes and showed keen
19:43
interest. Well, I went back and
19:46
made my landing, and bad weather
19:48
had moved in, a blizzard frontal
19:51
system, and I was told on the
19:53
landing to get a quick lunch,
19:55
come back, because I was going
19:56
to be on the combat air patrol,
19:59
which I did. Four of us briefed
20:03
together, took off in miserable
20:07
weather, joined up, and then
20:09
climbed through the clouds to
20:13
clear sky above it, 12,000 feet.
20:16
And in the clouds, CIC informed
20:20
us that there were a group of
20:23
unknown aircraft coming from the
20:25
north, and for us to be heads up.
20:28
You know, once coming into clear
20:31
air, I saw a flight of seven in
20:36
the fingertip formation, heading
20:40
our way, all in contrail,
20:43
probably 50,000 feet or maybe
20:45
higher. They often flew to
20:48
55,000. So they said, well,
20:53
that's your target. My flight
20:55
leader had a warning light in
20:59
his fuel system, and so he was
21:02
directed with his wingman to
21:05
return to over the task force,
21:07
where I took the lead with a
21:09
wingman that I did for phone
21:10
with me for, and tested by guns
21:14
and gunsight and everything. He
21:15
was ready to fight, and climbed
21:18
in the direction that I saw him.
21:20
As they went over, they turned
21:22
back north, and we were climbing
21:28
to engage if possible, if
21:31
necessary. And at 26,000 feet,
21:35
they broke up in two groups and
21:39
descended from the contrails,
21:41
and we lost sight of them. And I
21:44
reported that to the carrier,
21:46
and they lost sight of them as
21:47
well as they became a smaller
21:50
target. So I was instructed to
21:52
come back and establish a
21:54
barricade between the last
21:56
sighting and the task force. And
21:58
so in that turn, here come four
22:02
of them at my 10 o'clock
22:04
position, all firing. Oh, geez.
22:07
I wasn't given the instruction,
22:11
but intuition and my job. I
22:14
turned hard into him. Ended up
22:16
right on the tail of number four.
22:19
Short burst, and he started
22:20
smoking and dropping. And my
22:23
wingman followed him on down for,
22:27
I don't know why. But he left me,
22:30
and I didn't work with him
22:34
anymore. Thanks a lot.
22:36
He already shot him. Don't go
22:38
after him. Oh, my goodness. Oh,
22:41
my gosh. So you've got, so now
22:42
you're alone with six. You've
22:45
gotten one, and there's six more
22:46
in the fight somewhere. Yeah,
22:50
that's right.
22:50
Oh, my gosh. Oh. So I think if I
22:57
could take what I know now and
23:03
parlay that into what I think
23:05
happened, was that the three
23:08
remaining in the division that
23:10
just lost their tail end,
23:14
Charlie Gly, pulled up abruptly
23:16
and climbed smartly to 2,000
23:19
feet or so above me. And I was
23:23
trailing them, but following,
23:27
and as they turned to attack me,
23:31
I switched my aim and tracking
23:35
on the lead aircraft. And as I
23:40
completed the ready to attack
23:44
him, that airplane was firing at
23:48
me at a distance that, as far as
23:52
for the weapons I had, I felt
23:54
was out of range. So I just
23:57
tracked for a while until I
23:58
thought, okay, in which case, I
24:01
fired a brief shot, and he
24:03
stopped firing and turned away.
24:06
And as the later on, my guess
24:11
that this, who was the leader of
24:13
all seven, probably nicked him,
24:17
and he didn't want to continue
24:20
the attack. I switched my aim
24:25
and readiness on his wingman,
24:28
who was heading toward firing,
24:33
and went in range. I fired at
24:36
him. He stopped, didn't maneuver
24:39
anything, just slid right under
24:41
my airplane. I think he was dead
24:44
at all.
24:45
Okay, I have to ask, right now,
24:48
Captain Williams, were these
24:50
face shots? In other words, were
24:52
you shooting at each other,
24:54
going at each other, or was
24:56
there turning involved?
24:58
No. It was like we were just
25:01
pointing at each other.
25:02
That's what I thought. Holy cow.
25:07
That's, that's, that's, that's
25:10
terrifying. Repeat. What's one,
25:13
what's rule one when you're
25:14
training? No face shots. These
25:17
guys. Oh, my God. This is. Okay.
25:20
So I'm, I'm, I mean, my, my feet
25:23
are sweating. My palms are
25:24
sweating. So you've got two of
25:25
them, and you're still in a fur
25:27
ball, though, with these guys.
25:30
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. The other three
25:34
came in from the other side, and
25:36
now, instead of in formation,
25:37
they were, individuals, and it
25:39
was like our, uh, gunnery
25:42
training of, uh. Right. One in,
25:45
four off.
25:47
Yeah. And taking their turns.
25:49
Yeah, so you were, you were, you
25:51
were seriously maneuvering now.
25:54
Uh. Yes. Fighting off multiple
25:57
attacks.
25:57
At what point, uh, do you
25:59
remember how many rounds you had
26:01
on board, you know, in your gun?
26:04
I think 780, maybe 720. Okay.
26:08
Yeah. So, uh, we've, still,
26:11
you've got some left, though.
26:12
It's not, it's not unlimited.
26:14
It's not unlimited. It's not
26:17
unlimited. But you weren't done
26:18
with these guys yet. You've
26:20
gotten two of them. Now you're
26:21
1v5.
26:24
What, what happened next? Yes.
26:26
And maybe, uh, I think he stayed
26:33
above the fray. Okay. He was in
26:35
charge of the whole thing. Okay.
26:36
I don't think he ran off. But,
26:39
uh, according to a book that, uh,
26:42
came out written by a military
26:45
historian that, uh, two
26:49
airplanes were returning to
26:51
Vladivostok. And along the way,
26:55
one of them dropped, I suspect,
26:56
that could have been the lead
26:58
and was losing fuel and just, uh,
27:01
ran dry and died in the ocean.
27:04
Okay. Wow. And I don't mean to
27:07
put you on the spot. Do you
27:08
remember the name of that book
27:09
or was it in Russian?
27:13
The name of the book is called
27:15
Red Devils Over the Yalu.
27:17
Red Devils Over the Yalu. Okay.
27:19
Written by Igor Seidov.
27:22
S-E-I-D-O-V.
27:24
Okay. Perfect. Perfect. All
27:26
right. Sorry to interrupt. Oh,
27:28
that's my brain talking. There
27:31
you go.
27:32
She has, she has a, your brain
27:33
has a wonderful voice. Captain
27:35
Williams.
27:37
This book came out in what, by
27:39
1992? Oh, no. 2013. 2013? In, uh,
27:46
1992, Soviet Union broke up and
27:52
newspapers telling the story of
27:55
this 1952 event disclose the
28:00
name of four. So I have those
28:02
names, they've been published,
28:05
that were shot down. There's the
28:09
confirmation. Yeah. Tammy feels
28:12
that maybe two more could have
28:15
been lost, but could well have
28:18
been other communist nation
28:22
personnel flying with them and
28:24
they didn't have the right to
28:26
publish their names. We don't
28:28
know.
28:29
So in this fight that you're in,
28:31
you shot down two airplanes.
28:33
Nick to third. Yeah. Possibly
28:37
Nick to third. So that means
28:38
there's four making gun runs on
28:41
you.
28:41
Yes, that's right.
28:43
So, so how do you even survive
28:46
this? This is amazing. So I know,
28:48
uh, that eventually you got a
28:50
fourth and then at some point
28:52
they decided, uh, that maybe you
28:55
were not the right person to be
28:57
hangling with and chose the
28:59
better part of valor and went
29:00
home so they could live to try
29:02
the other day.
29:04
Well, no, I don't think that's
29:06
the way it was. So I'm dying.
29:08
Let's, let's hear it. Well, the
29:10
next one that made a mistake.
29:13
Instead of abruptly climbing and
29:17
getting out of it and getting up
29:19
on the perch to come back, at a
29:21
level point crossed me. And I,
29:24
uh, uh, at a close range track
29:26
and fired and, uh, uh, the
29:28
airplane broke up. Uh, and then
29:31
so I'm back there, there are
29:32
fewer, but they're still making
29:34
runs on it. And my attention is
29:36
not following who else is where,
29:39
except for the guy on my tail.
29:41
And I was maneuvering to loss up
29:44
his name and survive. I came on
29:47
another one and I was dead
29:50
behind him in fairly close range
29:53
and, uh, firing, he started
29:55
smoking and dropping out, going
29:58
low, leaving 26,000 feet. And I
30:03
ran out of ammunition. And at
30:06
that point I looked around and
30:08
here's the leg on my tail. So I
30:10
made a hard turn right. And he
30:13
got a lucky 37 millimeter into
30:16
my accessory section of the
30:18
engine and knocked out all my
30:22
hydraulics and severed the cable
30:25
to the rudder. Jeez. The
30:28
airplane was out of rig at that
30:30
point. I had to really use two
30:34
hands on the stick to do my
30:37
flying, but he stood nicely
30:39
right on my tail and I was still
30:43
some distance from the clouds
30:45
that were between us and the
30:48
task force. But I was aimed just
30:51
accidentally at the clouds and I
30:56
started dropping altitude, quite
30:58
steep, but I pushed the stick
31:00
forward and I pulled it back. I
31:01
just pulled a lot of G's in both
31:04
directions or a big yo-yo. And
31:06
though he just sat back there
31:08
and fired and fired all the way
31:10
until both of us got into the
31:11
clouds, he didn't nail me.
31:14
Thank goodness. Wow. That's so
31:17
fortunate then. And so now
31:18
you're trying to, now you have
31:20
to make it back to the ship in a
31:21
crippled bird. That's true.
31:23
Yeah. Either that or the other
31:26
options weren't very popular.
31:28
I can't imagine wanting to bail
31:29
out in that cold water. Yeah.
31:31
Well, my intuition was that I
31:36
got an airplane and I got an
31:37
ejection seat, but I mulled it
31:41
briefly and said, hey, that was
31:43
going to come to my rescue in
31:45
time. To save me from dying from
31:49
the cold water. So obviously I
31:52
stuck with it and I knew the
31:54
base of the clouds were about
31:57
four or 500 feet. So I just
31:59
lowered myself down, heading
32:01
toward the task force and
32:05
checking things as it went. And
32:08
as I came out underneath the
32:10
clouds leveled off, I was right
32:14
near the task force. And my
32:18
commanding officer and his
32:20
flight were just launched to
32:22
come up and relieve us. And he
32:26
saw that the task force, who had
32:29
been at general quarters, which
32:30
he was, hadn't been informed
32:34
that I was friendly. So they
32:36
were shooting at me. Of course
32:37
they were.
32:39
Oh, dear.
32:40
They called the darkness off.
32:41
And I started to figure my next
32:44
step to try to get aboard a
32:45
carrier in terrible weather and
32:48
a bad airplane. Seeing at what
32:51
speed I could slow to and still
32:53
fly, and I got down to 170 knots
32:57
and it was going to stall out.
33:00
So I had to come in above that.
33:03
Wow. That is fast. Notify the
33:06
landing signal officer. And he's
33:10
been ready for a tough job to
33:13
get me aboard. Well, I had to
33:16
wait till the aircraft that had
33:18
been lined up for launch for
33:21
another attack on North Korea.
33:25
Now the plans had changed, and
33:28
they were pulling everything
33:30
forward to make room for me to
33:32
land on a street deck airplane.
33:36
So it was some time, and I'm
33:40
assessing myself and positioning
33:41
it as best I could to be in the
33:44
right spot when I got a Charlie
33:47
permission to land. And when
33:49
that happened, I was in fairly
33:52
good shape behind the ship as it
33:55
went into the wind. And I let
34:00
them know I was fast, of course.
34:02
And the commanding officer said,
34:04
Brigham, any speed he wants. We
34:07
had plenty of surface wind plus
34:09
speed of the ship. But I
34:11
couldn't line up, and I was
34:13
going to cut crossways on the
34:15
carrier and would have put me
34:16
over the side. And the captain
34:19
knew that, and as I got on in
34:21
and pretty close, he whipped the
34:23
ship around and lined it up with
34:25
me.
34:26
And boom, I landed in a fairly
34:29
good landing. That's awesome.
34:31
Wow. And so then you tail hooked,
34:35
no barricade. Did they even have
34:36
barricades, then? Oh, yes. Okay.
34:39
So that was pre-hook. It was
34:41
major. On a straight deck, it
34:43
was more important than on an
34:45
angled because they had all
34:47
aircraft forward being armed and
34:50
fueled.
34:51
They're starting that as soon as
34:53
they land. But if an airplane's
34:56
coming in and has a problem,
34:59
they probably already put the
35:00
barricade up. But they had
35:03
operators right there who were
35:04
swift. If somebody was starting
35:07
to skip wires, they were going
35:08
to put the barricade up. So that
35:11
was my second defense.
35:14
All right. So you said you
35:17
couldn't get any slower than 170.
35:19
What was a normal landing speed
35:22
for a Panther? About 105. So
35:28
you're 65, 70 knots faster than
35:31
you normally are. Yeah.
35:33
I never heard of anybody landing.
35:35
Oh, it's terrifying. You think,
35:37
you know, is the cross-deck
35:38
pendant going to break? Is the
35:39
hook going to hold?
35:40
All that, you know. Well, and
35:42
I've seen that happen. Boy, that,
35:45
uh, his day comes flipping
35:47
across. I saw a chief penny
35:49
officer out there to, uh, drop
35:52
the, um, his pendant and clear
35:57
the hook. And that came around
35:59
and cut off both of his legs.
36:02
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Dangerous
36:03
place to be on a carrier deck.
36:05
Oh. Yeah. Indeed.
36:08
And if, uh, if, uh, my, my
36:11
memory's correct, I, cause I, uh,
36:12
from my reading, uh, of your
36:15
event that your aircraft was so
36:18
badly battle damaged that after
36:20
you, uh, got out of the airplane,
36:22
they, they just pushed it over.
36:24
Well, we, this was the last day
36:27
on the line for Princeton. So we
36:30
headed toward Yokozka and it
36:35
took a little time to get there,
36:36
but I received orders that on
36:39
arrival to report to Admiral
36:41
Briscoe, the senior naval
36:44
officer in the Western Pacific,
36:46
and I was prepared to, when we
36:49
docked, I went down on the
36:51
hangar deck and I saw second
36:53
class, uh, patty officer, uh, or
36:56
Boson, who handles these
36:59
aircraft in his pocket.
37:02
And he said, sorry, sir, but we
37:08
pushed it over the side. Well,
37:11
it turns out that, uh, that was
37:13
not true. It probably wasn't
37:15
true. And, uh, Admiral Shelton,
37:18
who picked up, uh, volunteered
37:23
on it. He started a look-see
37:25
into this many years later,
37:28
thinking that I hadn't been
37:30
properly awarded. And, uh, in
37:33
his study, he, uh, booked all of
37:37
the data on the, uh, bureau
37:41
numbers and found that it went
37:43
into overhaul and was useful
37:46
again in the training command.
37:47
Nice. I'll be damned. That's
37:51
beautiful. How about that?
37:52
Because, yeah, because Wikipedia
37:53
says they pushed it over, but
37:54
had, uh, it had 263 holes in it.
37:58
Yeah. That's all right.
38:00
Swiss cheese of an airplane by
38:03
the time you brought it back.
38:04
Wow. Okay. I, I have a couple of
38:07
questions that haven't come up
38:09
since I've been listening to you
38:11
talking, sir. One, one question
38:13
is, um, it, when you were
38:16
engaged, when you were already
38:19
engaged with MIGS, the article I
38:22
read said that you were informed
38:24
by the CIC to not engage. And
38:27
your reply was, I'm already
38:29
engaged.
38:30
Yeah. Yeah. There wasn't any
38:32
choice of the matter. I couldn't
38:36
turn tail, run, or with that
38:39
many ready to jump, man.
38:41
Right. No, that would have been,
38:43
that, that, that wouldn't have
38:44
worked out well. No. So at what
38:48
point did you, were you told,
38:52
okay, this, this didn't happen
38:55
because these were Russians? Uh,
38:57
was, was that, uh, when you went
38:59
to see the Admiral?
39:00
At first he wanted to know what,
39:03
uh, was meant and why did the,
39:07
or risk any of the carrier put
39:09
out the message that it did,
39:11
which was entirely false. And,
39:14
uh, it was because our
39:16
intelligence officer, without
39:19
debriefing us, had to make a
39:21
report to Washington. uh, and,
39:24
uh, uh, and his fertile mind
39:26
came up with what he thought
39:28
would be a good story and
39:29
treating everybody fairly. But,
39:33
uh, but that wasn't true. And,
39:36
uh, we proceeded to him say that
39:41
what I'm about to tell you, you
39:43
can't tell anybody ever. And
39:46
they told me about the, uh, NSA
39:51
group and first operation aboard
39:54
the USS Helena Navy cruiser off
39:58
the coast of Vladivostok with
40:01
their team on board of
40:03
monitoring and they, they had
40:06
these guys from their takeoff
40:08
until the remnant came back and
40:11
they would like for the Admiral
40:13
to let me know that I got at
40:15
least three and now don't tell
40:19
anybody. So, with that
40:24
admonition, I was pretty much
40:26
out of the game because I felt
40:27
if I'd start talking about the
40:30
report, the lie that went out, I
40:32
would get myself in trouble
40:34
saying things I wasn't
40:36
authorized to say. So I just
40:38
stayed out of the fray and
40:40
didn't assess, uh, credit to
40:44
anybody except I accepted that.
40:46
I got at least one. Nice.
40:49
Okay. What was the official
40:52
story, uh, that, uh, that went
40:54
out the press release or
40:56
whatever that went back to not
40:58
press release, but what was the
40:59
official combat? Yeah. What,
41:01
what, what was the Navy story
41:02
for 50 years?
41:04
Because it was top, it was, this
41:05
was top secret until 2002,
41:07
correct?
41:08
Yes. Uh, I don't know if they
41:12
said or Soviets at any point,
41:14
they talked about a MiG
41:16
engagement, uh, that I was there
41:20
in the flight of four and it
41:22
ended up pretty much just me.
41:25
however, uh, they gave credit
41:27
for my wingman for one damage.
41:30
And unfortunately he'd never
41:32
fired a shot. and, uh, uh, the,
41:36
uh, wingman from the flight lead.
41:39
And I said, I need some help was
41:42
vectored on this plane. And then
41:43
I was coming down smoking that I
41:46
ran out of ammunition on. Uh,
41:48
and, uh, as he made a run at him,
41:50
the guy ejected and they gave
41:53
him credit for her kill. Okay.
41:57
That was the story. And then
41:59
somebody, and I have any idea
42:01
who it was made up a mythical
42:05
report that each one of we're
42:07
telling about our involvement.
42:09
And they had me doing things I
42:11
didn't do. And these others
42:14
deeply involved in twisting and
42:16
tearing and shooting.
42:18
That's so frustrating to not be
42:22
able to say anything and go,
42:23
look, I was there. This is what
42:24
happened. You know? So there I
42:26
was. Wow. Can't say nothing.
42:29
There I was. Oh, that must've
42:31
been so frustrating because what
42:33
I also read was you didn't even
42:35
tell your bride. No, no pillow
42:37
talk on this one. No one at all.
42:39
Well, that, what an honorable
42:41
man, you know, told, told this
42:42
is top secret, keep it to
42:43
yourself. And you did for so
42:44
many years. Did I, did I also
42:46
read, you got to meet president
42:47
Eisenhower over this? Oh, very
42:49
much so. Yes.
42:50
As a president elected, his
42:54
promise while he was running for
42:56
president was if elected, he
42:59
would personally go to Korea and
43:02
assess the situation. And as he
43:06
came out, he declared that he
43:08
wanted to see Royce Williams.
43:10
Nice. And so everybody made it
43:13
so. Very cool. It happened.
43:17
That's, that's out, that's So
43:20
that was in 1952. Yes. You
43:24
finished that combat tour and
43:27
then, did you do another combat
43:29
tour in Korea? No. In 1953. In
43:32
1953, the fighting part of the
43:35
war stopped.
43:37
And Panmunjom agreements, they
43:42
made a division of north and
43:44
south. And I've been there since
43:46
then. And then down to Panmunjom,
43:49
which is kind of a strange place.
43:52
But it's all the distance
43:56
between the two countries
43:58
heavily mined and a lot of
44:01
forces at the ready. Right. Oh,
44:03
yeah. Right. I'm, I'm speechless.
44:06
I am.
44:07
I'm so honored. Yeah. I know.
44:10
Where do you go? We, you know,
44:13
we're, we're talking to a, we're
44:16
in the presence of greatness. My
44:18
friend, Captain Williams.
44:21
We're honored. Well, okay. Go
44:24
ahead.
44:24
Well, not now. So I want to, I
44:26
want to go. Not only did you fly
44:29
combat missions in, in the
44:32
Korean war, but you also flew
44:34
combat missions in the Vietnam
44:35
war.
44:38
In both the F-4 and the A-4 or,
44:41
or just the F-4? Oh, both. Both.
44:44
It was the wing commander and
44:46
the Kitty Hawk.
44:49
Were you flying two, the two
44:51
airplanes at the same time? Yes.
44:54
The A-4 and the F-4? Because
44:56
there's a. Same period.
44:58
Not at the same time.
45:00
Okay. Okay. Same period. Well,
45:03
that's all right. So what, now
45:04
I've, I've flown the A-4, but
45:07
never the A-4. The F-4. So
45:09
between those two airplanes,
45:11
which, which one. Which child
45:13
was your favorite? Yeah. Which
45:16
child's your favorite? The F-4
45:17
or the A-4? The A-4 for fun and
45:22
the F-4 for fighting. Okay. Nice.
45:26
I like that answer. I like that
45:28
answer a lot. Well, do you
45:29
recall how many hours you got in
45:31
the Panther? Because I know you
45:32
had just a little under a
45:33
hundred when you, when you, when
45:35
you had the combat with the MiGs.
45:37
Yeah. Maybe $200, $300. And when
45:41
we came back, we were reassigned
45:45
Cougars aboard the USS Boxer.
45:48
Okay. And we served pretty much
45:52
off of South Vietnam. And this
45:55
would be 50, late 53 and 54.
46:00
And we, we came near to the war.
46:04
We had the third fleet admiral
46:07
come out and join us and we
46:09
couldn't be in charge of the
46:11
fighting forces in Vietnam. And
46:15
President Eisenhower had pledged
46:17
help to the French. And, and the
46:21
French operation was starting
46:24
and I had to target a sign in
46:26
that area with the Cougar ready
46:29
to go. When communications
46:32
between French and American
46:35
decided to shut it down. And I
46:39
talked to the French and they
46:40
said, no, the Americans backed
46:43
up. Of course. Yeah. I just,
46:48
according to my recollection,
46:51
the truth, they just decided,
46:54
get out of the colonial business.
46:56
Right. Right.
46:58
And that was, the Diambam Phu
47:00
was the major disaster for the
47:02
French in Indochina, in Vietnam,
47:04
that led them to basically go,
47:07
done, we're done here. Yeah.
47:09
And it was a mess. The
47:11
Vietnamese ended up showing
47:14
force that nobody knew they had.
47:16
They were, they would have
47:17
cleaned house.
47:19
There's a couple of good
47:20
documentaries on that, but the,
47:21
the, the French lost entire
47:23
classes of their military
47:25
academies. Yes. It was a total
47:28
slaughter. Indeed.
47:30
Yeah. Yeah. They ran right into
47:33
a trap.
47:34
Yeah. They thought the
47:35
Vietnamese couldn't get their
47:36
cannons up the hill and that
47:37
sort of thing. They just
47:38
disassembled them and brought
47:39
them up piece by piece and put
47:40
them back together. And
47:42
ingenious.
47:45
So after a Coug, after you flew
47:47
Cougars, what, walk us through
47:52
your naval career from that
47:54
point. Came back from that tour
47:56
flying Cougars off the coast of
47:59
Vietnam.
48:00
Actually, I got orders in the
48:03
middle of my deployment to go as
48:06
a Navcat procurement officer at
48:09
Miami, Florida. Started on that
48:11
and got to the Philippines. We
48:13
were in China and went to the
48:15
Philippines and I got another
48:18
set of orders at Navcat
48:21
procurement officer, Akron, Ohio.
48:24
So by flying in a kind of a
48:27
borrowed DC-3, we finally got
48:30
back to the States, had some
48:32
farewell parties at our church
48:34
and had the movers at the house
48:38
packing, but nothing but nothing
48:39
in the van yet. When I get a
48:42
call from Washington, D. C.,
48:44
report tomorrow, ROP 05, for
48:47
briefings in connection with
48:49
exchange duty with the Air Force.
48:52
Okay. Oh, boy. So it happened.
48:56
One of my favorite assignments,
48:59
I was treated so royally, I was
49:02
the Air Force representative
49:04
with FAA in Los Angeles. I was
49:08
on, ended up on the colonel's
49:12
staff and then instructing in
49:14
the fighter weapons school and
49:17
kind of his favorite nation. I
49:20
was given command of an F-86H
49:23
squad, brand new. Another cool
49:26
jet. Goodness.
49:30
I am so jealous. Yeah. I know. I
49:33
was a Navy lieutenant and all
49:35
the other commanding officers
49:36
from majors and lieutenant
49:38
colonels. They could hardly wait
49:40
until I got out of there to pick
49:42
up some of the choice jobs that
49:43
I was holding. Okay. So Cougars,
49:47
F-86s, air exchange.
49:50
F-100. F-100. Okay. Can you list
49:54
the airplanes you haven't flown?
49:56
Maybe that is a short list.
50:02
Yeah.
50:03
GBM. Wow. So F-86s and F-100s
50:08
with the Air Force. Yes. And
50:11
then at some point you got in.
50:15
I returned to the Navy at El
50:18
Central, the fleet air gunnery
50:19
unit. And I was flying FJ-3s
50:23
very similar to an F-86. And I'm
50:26
getting a signal low battery.
50:28
Okay. We'll wrap this up pretty
50:29
quickly then. I do have one
50:30
quick question about the whole
50:31
Air Force Navy thing. That was
50:34
– so today there's a saying
50:36
that essentially is the Navy
50:38
rules don't say you can't do it,
50:40
then you can do it. And the Air
50:42
Force rules don't say you can do
50:43
it, then you can't do it. Was
50:45
that the case back then, or has
50:47
the Air Force changed since the
50:49
– I'm assuming the early 60s
50:51
when you were doing that? Oh,
50:53
goodness. Yeah. I learned Air
50:57
Force ways pretty well.
51:00
I wrote the air-to-ground manual,
51:04
which went along with boost,
51:05
blesse, no gusts, no glory,
51:07
air-to-air fighting. Cool. But
51:11
years – I'm skipping years
51:14
ahead, I'm commanding officers
51:16
of the Phantom Squadron. And
51:18
we're flying out of the String
51:21
of Islands out of – Oh, out of
51:24
the Keys, the Florida Keys, Key
51:26
West. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So I'm
51:30
on a missile shoot, so I shoot,
51:33
I think, a Havar, and then I
51:35
shoot it down with the sidewind.
51:37
And I did that, but when it
51:40
exploded, I went into a big
51:42
victory roll. And on the top of
51:44
it, loud explosions,
51:46
everything's turning red and
51:48
blinking. I declared a mayday
51:52
and straightened out, pulled
51:56
back in the power, proceeded
51:58
back toward the base, lowering
52:00
and gliding to use air for
52:03
distance. Looked around and fire
52:07
both engines.
52:11
And so I'm mainly trying to get
52:16
back to the base, but I recall
52:19
that in short order recently,
52:23
that 16 situations like that
52:26
around the world, including Air
52:30
Force cars and Australians and
52:34
Belgians and whatnot, they were
52:36
flying the airplane, and they
52:39
all ejected. And I know in the
52:41
Air Force training, as they say,
52:43
in the event of that happening,
52:46
get up. Well, I've been told
52:49
that. And so I thought it's
52:51
still flying, and I stuck with
52:52
it. And as I got down to a lower
52:55
altitude and had to come up on
52:57
power, more power, more power,
52:59
and I had to go into afterburner
53:01
to keep it refending. And my RIO
53:07
ejected, and then I took it in
53:09
there, and it was a pretty
53:11
dangerous situation. I had both
53:13
engines on fire and afterburner
53:15
to land. But I did it until, for
53:19
the first time ever, they got an
53:21
airplane bad. Engineers
53:23
descended on it from all over
53:25
the world. And a month or so,
53:28
they had solved the problem. It
53:30
never happened again. Nice. Did
53:33
I hear you say your backseat are
53:34
ejected while you were flying it
53:37
back? He got a convertible ride.
53:43
Yeah, well, that itself was
53:45
interesting because there was a
53:47
helicopter coming from Air Force
53:49
Homestead to Key West. And he
53:54
said, F-4 on fire, we see your
54:03
RIO, we'll pick him up.
54:06
And he got back faster than I
54:08
did. There's a naval aviator
54:11
extraordinaire for you, Fig. It
54:13
was, quote, interesting. Yeah.
54:15
Unquote. Yeah, it was
54:17
interesting. You shouldn't get
54:20
so excited about it next time
54:22
you tell us that, sir. Talk
54:24
about understatement. Wow. Thank
54:27
you so much. Well, I've got one
54:28
other question. Of all the jobs
54:31
that you did, of all the flying
54:32
that you did, what was the best
54:34
job that you had in the Navy?
54:37
Well, my most important one, I
54:39
guess, was I was the first
54:42
Inspector General Sink Pack
54:44
under Admiral McCain.
54:46
Under Admiral McCain, you cut
54:47
out. You say Admiral McCain?
54:49
Yes. I served with all three of
54:51
the McCains. So they needed
54:55
somebody right now, and it was a
54:56
two-star job, but Captain
54:59
Williams was it. And so I wrote
55:02
the instructions and the plans
55:05
and made the first inspections
55:07
on four-star generals and so
55:09
forth. And then I got relieved
55:12
from the job by the most senior
55:15
Air Force two-star in the
55:16
Pacific. Okay. And it went up
55:19
another job. Wow.
55:21
So all the responsibility and
55:23
none of the pay.
55:26
That would be true. Yes. Wow.
55:30
This has been just an amazing
55:34
pleasure, Captain Williams,
55:35
hearing your stories. And I feel
55:38
like I'm in the presence of
55:40
royalty. And if I was there, I
55:43
would want to shake your hand.
55:44
And unfortunately, there's a
55:45
little bit of distance between
55:46
us. But thank you so much for
55:49
your service, first of all. I
55:51
aspired to be a Naval Aviator
55:53
extraordinaire, but I had no
55:55
idea that there was a giant
55:58
shadow cast by you. There was no
56:00
way I was ever going to get
56:01
there.
56:02
I understand you're a Marine,
56:03
right?
56:04
Yes, sir. Both Repeat and I were
56:06
squadron mates together.
56:07
We flew the Aviator B, B-model
56:11
Harrier. Yeah. I was a Naval
56:17
Aviator Marine. And his final
56:21
assignment was on Edmund
56:22
McCain's staff as a colonel. And
56:24
I came aboard as his numerical
56:27
relief for the Navy Department.
56:29
And he retired the next day.
56:30
Okay. I'm sorry.
56:31
We got all of that except who it
56:33
was. You broke up when you
56:34
stated who was a Naval Aviator
56:36
Marine.
56:38
Your brother. Oh, your brother.
56:39
My brother. Okay.
56:39
Oh, your brother. The same
56:42
brother that checked you out in
56:44
the Corsair? Exactly.
56:48
How awesome is that? That's
56:50
awesome. Is he still with us?
56:52
Oh, he died on, yeah. Fourth of
56:55
July, two years ago.
56:57
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. What
56:58
was his name, sir?
57:01
Ninety-eight. He wasn't a young
57:03
fellow. What was his name? He
57:07
wasn't a young fellow.
57:10
Lynn. Lynn Williams. They want
57:12
to know his name. Yeah, Lynn.
57:13
Awesome. Well, and thank you to
57:15
your brother for his service.
57:17
You have a family with a
57:19
tradition of service and
57:20
sacrifice. And I am so grateful,
57:22
not only for your service, but
57:24
for your time that you have
57:26
honored us with your presence.
57:27
Well, I appreciate it. Thank you.
57:30
We're humbled that you're here
57:31
with us. And I hope the campaign
57:33
is successful. I believe fully
57:36
in my heart that you are worthy
57:38
of the Medal of Honor, sir. And
57:39
I hope that they come to their
57:41
senses and award that to you, as
57:44
it should have been done 70
57:46
years ago.
57:48
Right. Thanks, sir.
57:51
What a true honor it has been,
57:54
talking with you personally.
57:55
Thank you for your time.
57:57
Well, it was enjoyable.
57:59
Thank you. I just feel like
58:03
we've got about six months worth
58:06
of stories to pry out of you,
58:07
but that's not going to happen
58:09
today.
58:09
If you're willing to come back
58:10
sometime, we would love to have
58:11
you back.
58:13
Well, there are other stories.
58:15
Oh, we've got to get them. I
58:17
know. Oh, my gosh. You know,
58:19
this is just the tip of the
58:21
iceberg. I can't wait to hear
58:22
the Phantom and the A4. Well,
58:23
the fact that he talked about
58:25
being on fire in an F4 and his
58:27
Rio jumped out like he was
58:29
standing on the corner waiting
58:30
for a taxi cab to go by.
58:34
That was an interesting day. Oh,
58:37
my goodness. All right. Well,
58:40
sir, we know you've got a low
58:41
battery, so we'll let you go.
58:42
We'll do away with most of the
58:44
formalities that we usually do.
58:46
I'll show announcements and that
58:47
kind of stuff. And just say
58:49
thank you and God bless you. And
58:51
please, if you're willing to
58:52
come back, we would love to have
58:53
you. It would be a joy.
58:56
Very well. God bless you. Well,
58:57
we're going to take you up on
58:58
that, sir. Thank you so much.
59:00
All right. I'll have a list of
59:03
questions. Good.
59:04
I just want to thank you both as
59:06
well, and I'll be in touch with
59:08
you. And I really appreciate you
59:11
spending the time with Captain
59:13
Williams today.
59:13
It was all our honor. All our
59:15
honor and privilege. Yes.
59:17
Absolutely. Well, we're going to
59:19
need your, you're going to need
59:20
your support.
59:21
Why don't you like to see you?
59:24
Thank you for helping today.
59:28
Thank you. We still have work
59:31
cut out on this medal of honor,
59:32
and we're not giving up. So I'll
59:36
look forward for your support
59:38
for that. Whatever we can do.
59:39
We can help. Anything we can do,
59:43
we'll do it. Absolutely. We have
59:45
a good, well, we have a pretty
59:47
good following so far. And we'll
59:49
just keep spreading that. We'll
59:50
be waiting for our list of
59:50
people listening.
59:50
We'll be waiting for people to
59:50
have any people that can make
59:51
this happen. Get busy. Get busy.
59:56
Contact your senators. The
59:59
Congress, the House has already
1:00:00
approved it.
1:00:01
Be well. God bless. Semper Fi.
1:00:06
Semper Fi. Thank you, sir.
1:00:10
Well, Captain Williams, thank
1:00:12
you so much for your time with
1:00:13
Fig and me today. We are deeply
1:00:16
honored that you spent time with
1:00:17
us. And we look so much forward
1:00:18
to having you back and hearing
1:00:20
more of these stories that were,
1:00:22
as you put them, interesting.
1:00:25
Right? Oh, my gosh. Right? Our
1:00:27
gratitude also goes out to Dave
1:00:29
Hamilton over at the Mac Geek
1:00:30
Gap. Folks, here's some of the
1:00:33
feedback that I get over and
1:00:34
over again. Please go to our
1:00:36
website, sothereiwas. us. We
1:00:38
have a glossary page there. Go
1:00:40
look up all these terms. We know
1:00:41
there's a lot of terms that you
1:00:42
get hit with during the show,
1:00:43
and it's hard to listen to if
1:00:45
you don't know what they are.
1:00:46
But if you'll go to our page,
1:00:48
glossary page there on
1:00:49
sothereiwas. us. If you don't
1:00:51
see what you're looking for,
1:00:52
shoot us an email. Repeat at
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sothereiwas. us or Fig at
1:00:57
sothereiwas. us. And ask us to
1:00:59
get it up on the page. Ask us
1:01:01
what it is. We've had a few
1:01:02
emails like that, and we've got
1:01:03
them up on the glossary page.
1:01:05
Thanks also to our sponsor,
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Angels. Yeah. Yeah. It looked
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like they were flying beer can
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formations. We're getting closer.
1:01:30
They were beer can with, right?
1:01:33
What? I saw 65? Are we up to 65
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We need 35 more of you. Get off
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share, share, share. Keep
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growing exponentially.
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You know, I've gotten feedback
1:02:08
too from friends that are not in
1:02:12
the aviation business and they
1:02:14
are in love with this show just
1:02:17
because it's something different.
1:02:17
You know, we don't talk politics.
1:02:20
It's a chance to get away from
1:02:21
the crazy out there in the world
1:02:23
and just listen to good stories.
1:02:24
Listen to the crazy that is
1:02:26
aviation. Yes. So if you know
1:02:28
people that just like a good
1:02:30
story, you don't have to be a
1:02:31
pilot to enjoy this show.
1:02:32
Keep sharing it. And lastly,
1:02:34
thanks to our friends, the Dos
1:02:36
Gringos, the two men who give
1:02:37
the Air Force a great name,
1:02:39
great music that brings us in
1:02:41
and brings us out every week.
1:02:43
We're so appreciative. And
1:02:45
hopefully they'll come back soon
1:02:46
and chat a little more about
1:02:47
some of their next things in the
1:02:50
airplanes. I'd like that one. So
1:02:51
BUL, everybody. Until next week,
1:02:53
stay safe and check six.
1:03:22
Another MiG came round and
1:03:24
Williams managed to get his
1:03:25
sights on him and fired. The MiG
1:03:27
blew up, Williams narrowly
1:03:29
avoiding the massive fireball.
1:03:31
When he looked back and saw
1:03:33
another Soviet plane coming in,
1:03:35
he wove and jigged to foul the
1:03:37
Soviet's aim, but a burst of
1:03:39
fire found the Panther hitting a
1:03:41
wing and the engine. He managed
1:03:43
to pull up hard. Cannon shells
1:03:45
roaring past his canopy as he
1:03:47
did so and dived into cloud
1:03:49
cover. He performed an extremely
1:03:51
hazardous carrier landing.
1:03:53
Lieutenant Williams is credited
1:03:55
with four Soviet MiG-15 kills.
1:03:58
After the Cold War ended in 1991,
1:04:01
the Russian government confirmed
1:04:02
that Williams had down four of
1:04:04
their pilots, including their
1:04:06
names.