Latest / Adventure Sports Podcast / Ep 1155: An Amazing Life of Whitewater Kayaking with Brad Burden

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Ep 1155: An Amazing Life of Whitewater Kayaking with Brad Burden · Adventure Sports Podcast

0:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the Adventure Sports podcast.
0:08
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk with adventurers from around the globe to bring you the inspiration and motivation you need to get started in the outdoors or to keep you moving if you're already there.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, here's your host, Kurt Lindville.
0:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey friends, happy hump day.
0:22
[SPEAKER_03]: It's always fun to know that the work week is about half over.
0:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's also fun, I think, to listen to a great podcast about something you might want to try on the weekend.
0:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Today's episode is fun.
0:34
[SPEAKER_03]: It's on white water kayaking.
0:36
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's one of my favorite sports that I enjoyed so much over the years, so it's going to be great.
0:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to make a couple of quick announcements.
0:44
[SPEAKER_03]: One is a reminder that we have a discord server now, so there is a way that you can interact with us.
0:51
[SPEAKER_03]: You can interact with each other.
0:53
[SPEAKER_03]: And the idea that you might be able to share tips and tricks about your favorite adventure sports might be able to even meet up who knows what will come from it.
1:04
[SPEAKER_03]: But I'm putting the access lane to the Discord server in the show notes.
1:08
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you click that, you can join up and we have a few people on there, we exchange ideas back and forth.
1:16
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a lot of fun, so I hope to see you there.
1:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, keep in mind, we do have an account on Patreon.
1:23
[SPEAKER_03]: If you would like to help support the Adventure Sports podcast, you know, buy us a cup of coffee.
1:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Whatever it might be, we want to say thank you to advance for that.
1:32
[SPEAKER_03]: We have Patreon members there that give a little every month, and it's making a big difference for us.
1:38
[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you very much to all the people that are helping out with Patreon.
1:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And now let's dive into this episode.
1:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi friends, I'm glad that you joined us today because this episode is going to be, well, I'm just guessing an advance is going to be one of my favorites because it is on white water kayaking, which is something that I did many years ago, a sport that I love.
2:02
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's fantastic and we have the man here to talk to us about it.
2:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Brad Burton was a high school teacher.
2:10
[SPEAKER_03]: He taught health and basketball, but he was also really, really into kayaking.
2:14
[SPEAKER_03]: But he took a hiatus from it and for like 20 years and then has recently gone back into the sport again and so it's going to be a very unique perspective Brad welcome to the program.
2:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Kurt.
2:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me.
2:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this show and I'm just, it's an honor to be, uh, to be at a, I guess on the show, have been listening to it for so long.
2:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So thanks again for having me.
2:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we haven't talked quite what are kayaking in a while.
2:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I, okay.
2:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember the last episode on, on kayaking.
2:44
[SPEAKER_03]: So we are overdue.
2:46
[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for joining us.
2:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's start with where you're coming from.
2:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I just got into the sport via my father through the 90s and then started working at the Nanahella Outdoor Center, which is for people who don't know.
2:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the kind of epicinners for rafting, kayak construction, and it really attracts a lot of people to that want to be in white water to that area because you can kayak you around and you're surrounded by
3:12
[SPEAKER_01]: great athletes and all kinds of different disciplines of the sport and I kind of just really took off from there and was able to you know
3:20
[SPEAKER_01]: become pretty proficient, pretty quickly, and then started teaching kayaking, started doing a venture travel, lead trips in Mexico, Panama, Chile, Argentina, and then started competing and traveling as a sponsored athlete through the early 2000s.
3:36
[SPEAKER_01]: But I grew up in Indiana, so I grew up playing basketball and I always had this, it's to be a high school teacher in basketball coach.
3:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And literally one day in 2005, I got an opportunity to start helping
3:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were a need of coaches and a lot of different sports and it up coaching there and I kind of just took all that energy and motivation that I had with trying to become the best kayaker that I could possibly be.
4:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just cold turkey quick hike and put all that energy into basketball and I've pursued that for the last 23 years.
4:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a couple years there, I was still kayaking a little bit.
4:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But then I was like, if I'm going to not, if I'm going to do the basketball thing, I got a quick kayaking completely.
4:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
4:18
[SPEAKER_01]: But now the river has just been really calling me back.
4:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And 20 years later, I'm ready to get back on the water and reconnect with the sport.
4:26
[SPEAKER_03]: There's wisdom in that.
4:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Some of us want to do everything.
4:30
[SPEAKER_03]: and when we try to do everything we end up not doing anything very well sometimes i mean there are some amazing people out there do do a lot of things really well but i think learning to manage our time and being able to concentrate and focus i mean i'm sure i can already tell by your enthusiasm you're the coach that everybody loved and you put your heart and soul into it am i right
4:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that second part is definitely true.
4:56
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're coaching basketball, you're never the person that everybody loves.
5:01
[SPEAKER_01]: There's only five people on the floor.
5:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So, in Italy, there's definitely some people who are not gonna be happy with you.
5:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And coaching high school basketball in Indiana is pretty intense.
5:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, it's definitely not a career that you're gonna make everyone happy.
5:15
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want that, you gotta go sell ice cream.
5:17
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the right way to say it.
5:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and I shouldn't get into teaching too much.
5:22
[SPEAKER_03]: I used to be a teacher as well, Brad.
5:24
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of teachers try to sell ice cream all the time.
5:26
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure they're getting there that way.
5:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so.
5:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you just try to do the right thing at all times to do the next best action.
5:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes, you know, some of those players are still, you know, 20 years later that the kids who invite you to their wedding and you text on your birthdays that they call you for letters of recommendation.
5:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's others who you're probably not their favorite, but as long as you're trying to do what's best at the time, then I think you can sleep well tonight.
5:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we could we could do a whole show just on that, but that's not what we're here.
5:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's not what we're talking about.
5:58
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's super cool.
5:59
[SPEAKER_03]: It tells us a lot about who you are, I think.
6:02
[SPEAKER_03]: So you already mentioned that you really got into whitewater kayaking.
6:06
[SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about in the early 2000s, right?
6:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, late 90s, early 2000s, yeah.
6:12
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you took this break.
6:13
[SPEAKER_03]: We need to know both sides of this time's sandwich.
6:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Why don't we start with the before the break?
6:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
6:20
[SPEAKER_03]: It just dive in a little bit.
6:21
[SPEAKER_03]: You already mentioned you started doing adventure travel, kayaking in different places.
6:28
[SPEAKER_03]: What about the Golly River?
6:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Now that one is, I'm completely ignorant.
6:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm assuming that one's in the US.
6:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the Golly's in West Virginia.
6:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
6:38
[SPEAKER_01]: That is one of the most special places on earth for cackers.
6:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a damn release river and it's one of the most popular rivers for rafters and things, but it's one of the probably one of the hardest commercially raft rivers in the United States.
6:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It's class four or five, but it only runs in the month of September.
6:56
[SPEAKER_01]: For a lot of pro cackers at the time we would just there's a can't ground at the put in it's actually now closed for camping, but it used to be just a can't ground right at the put in and pro cackers would kind of take a pilgrims their pilgrimage there every September and just live at the put in and kayak the river every day during the month of September and for me doing adventure travel outside of the US.
7:19
[SPEAKER_01]: that usually happens in the fall and winter.
7:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So golly season as they call it that month of September always had a little an air about it because I knew soon as golly season was over, it was going to be hopping on a plane to go to central in South America.
7:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, several years just living right there at that golly put in.
7:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Very cool.
7:37
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it sounds like Yosemite for climbers, except we're talking about kayakers.
7:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I got very, very much so.
7:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's, it's, and then they have a huge festival American Whitewater puts on the festival and it's their largest, one of their largest money makers of the years is this big festival that they have in mid September there.
7:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And it brings people from all over the world to come and go down the river and then have a little fun in the evening afterwards.
8:03
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm also catching the element of the community in this, and that's a big deal, right?
8:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Whatever your adventure sport is, the community that develops around it is something special.
8:13
[SPEAKER_03]: What was that like?
8:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, 1,000 percent.
8:16
[SPEAKER_01]: The white water community is really unique.
8:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And being this is my first season kind of reconnecting with that community in this sport, I was blown away because I just kind of, I started back again in early July and I kind of done some local rivers in North Carolina, Tennessee that I was very familiar with and ran into some folks who were very welcoming.
8:37
[SPEAKER_01]: But then I went back to Gali Fest and ran into a lot of the still people who are still involved
8:44
[SPEAKER_01]: and for them to like number one, just even remember me 20 years ago, but then said to be like, oh my gosh, this is so great.
8:50
[SPEAKER_01]: We're so glad to have you back.
8:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just welcoming dagger kayaks was one of my sponsors back then and they were welcoming with open arms and invited me to be back as one of their ambassadors.
9:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So it just really shows not, you know,
9:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all about people, but even the companies that are, I mean, they're driven by people, you know, wanting to reconnect with folks who have been out of the sport.
9:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just really humbling and I loved it.
9:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It was great.
9:16
[SPEAKER_03]: that's fantastic.
9:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you said here was the day after 9-11 that you had an experience on the Gauly River.
9:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
9:24
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, a lot of our listeners now matter of fact, it's considered the division point between generations as whether or not you can remember 9-11.
9:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of our listeners now, they weren't with us yet.
9:37
[SPEAKER_03]: 9-11 was a while back, but describe that day.
9:42
[SPEAKER_03]: What was that like?
9:44
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's just one of these that when I think about my life or my paddling career, it's one of those days it really sticks out and this past 911, I was just really motivated to, I guess, you know, reconnected with the sport to I contacted a kayak session magazine, which was one of the premier.
10:01
[SPEAKER_01]: publications in kayaking and asked them if I could write this story and they said yes because it's just always been like really vivid in my mind.
10:08
[SPEAKER_01]: The Golly River I mentioned his damn controlled and it doesn't run on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
10:14
[SPEAKER_01]: and for folks to remember, nine eleven was on a Tuesday.
10:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and I also mentioned that after golly season, I would go to Central and South America for the fall.
10:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember my early twenties at this point.
10:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm still wanting to go home and visit family and things.
10:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And from where I grew up in Louisville, Kentucky was only about a four and a half, five hour drive.
10:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Got off the river on Monday night and I decided I would drive home.
10:39
[SPEAKER_01]: go visit my folks for a couple days and go back to the golly because again in a couple weeks, I'm going to be heading to South America for the winter.
10:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
10:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Get home.
10:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have some dinner with dad.
10:47
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes off the work the next morning.
10:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I sleep in.
10:50
[SPEAKER_01]: My grandpa calls me and tells me to turn on the TV and share the same experience that so many Americans and people across the world did just watching the terror unfold on the television.
11:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It's course spent the whole day doing that.
11:04
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole day wins day doing that.
11:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, this is kind of at the the infancy of the internet and email.
11:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we certainly have it, but this is definitely before social media, but people are starting to find out that the lake, summers bill lake, that the gala draws from, is pretty high, and they're going to go ahead and release.
11:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But all these dams across the southeast, these white water rivers, like the Nanna Hela and the Kowy, they all shut their dams off, and everybody close to commercial white water traffic.
11:36
[SPEAKER_01]: But as the Whitewater community started hearing about, hey, the Gali is still going to be running, because the lake is so high, they have to release.
11:43
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's going to be no rafters on the water.
11:46
[SPEAKER_01]: We all just went back to the river.
11:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody just flock back to the put-in, and that campsite that I described, it was just full of professional kayakers, video boaters and raft guides from the Gali who weren't going to be working for the foreseeable future, because commercial traffic had been shut down.
12:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And then to add this other really unique international element, there was a slalom world cup competition being held on the Akoi River in Tennessee, where the Akoi River shut down, their dams turned off, all these slalom kayakers from all over the world here that the Golly River is running, so they all get in their cars and their RVs and their buses, and they all drive to West Virginia.
12:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So we wake up on the morning of that Thursday after
12:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And the parking lot is full of professional freestyle kayakers, white water, raf guides, and slalom kayakers from all over the world, and we'll just put on the river.
12:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And what we call blue angel, just do the storm down the river.
12:48
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not worried about really, you know, we knew everybody on there, their skill level was really high.
12:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And we just bombed on the river in this kind of active global solidarity that was just so special and so unique.
13:01
[SPEAKER_01]: and very healing and cathartic after witnessing so much terror for the last three days.
13:09
[SPEAKER_03]: So much there, you know, when people go through really, really disturbing, might be a word for it, disturbing times, difficult challenging times.
13:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Then they often lean into their friendships, they lean into their family.
13:23
[SPEAKER_03]: But what's so cool about your story is that everyone convened on this one location, almost happens, stands.
13:30
[SPEAKER_03]: But they all convened on this one location,
13:33
[SPEAKER_01]: and it's like a culture came together and you knew each other it was like okay we're friends we've all just been put through this horrible thing but the river still flows right and I want to be clear like you know we wouldn't have seen it on TV is not the same as being a first responder absolutely I've forgotten being in its hours or you know or having a love one there I mean so but we all shared this sense of fear and horror and just
14:01
[SPEAKER_01]: unknowing of what was going to happen.
14:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I was one of the first, I was on one of the first planes to leave the US after like you know air travel was allowed again and then going back into the air and having this sense of
14:16
[SPEAKER_01]: security and things that didn't exist pre 9-11 was really neat to me as well.
14:22
[SPEAKER_01]: But yet the community and the river just convening back in nature and being at a place where you're not going to be watching TV and again this is before you know kind of smartphones but just being away from the tear and the fear and back in this place that all just had seemed right was what we were all
14:43
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess I want to just shine a light on that a little bit because there are a lot of people going through a lot of challenging things.
14:49
[SPEAKER_03]: And in my life, I leaned into adventure to blow off steam to recharge my batteries and define a healthy place in difficult times.
15:00
[SPEAKER_03]: It really works, doesn't it, Brad?
15:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It does.
15:02
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just something about it, you know, for some people and I'm also a person of faith, you know, for some people that's, you know, reconnecting with their church community.
15:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And I certainly think that there's power in that if that's what people are drawn to.
15:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's just something about nature and adventure, like you said, I mean, you know, you can go out into a cornfield in Kansas.
15:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have limps in here in Indiana.
15:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have some forest, but there's something about wild nature, whether it's mountains or rivers that add another element to it that in our oceans that really make you connect and feel a sense of
15:40
[SPEAKER_01]: one this with the universe, but also realize that you are so minuscule and, you know, that your life has meaning, but also that you're just this spec as well, kind of both sides of those coins.
15:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I think extreme while nature makes you feel that those two, those two sides.
15:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.
15:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, the creator's canvas.
16:01
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the way I think of it.
16:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Thousand percent.
16:04
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm in the painting.
16:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
16:06
[SPEAKER_03]: And I connect with that.
16:08
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's just super meaningful.
16:10
[SPEAKER_03]: So then you when they opened up air traffic again.
16:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And people, they don't know what happened.
16:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe we should do a quick bullet point review.
16:19
[SPEAKER_03]: But pretty much every vulnerable location in the United States was shut down.
16:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Air traffic was shut down.
16:26
[SPEAKER_03]: The skies were empty.
16:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Which was kind of shocking.
16:30
[SPEAKER_03]: It was hard to get used to because, you know, you don't think much about it.
16:33
[SPEAKER_03]: But their contrails up there, you look up, you hear a flame flying over in.
16:39
[SPEAKER_03]: all of a sudden it was just silent and this this lasted for quite a while and you know one of the places that I used to kayak was the Blue River Blue Green Mountain Reservoir and the put in there meant you had to be right by the dam while they closed all of that you couldn't get right by any dam during that time.
16:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they were very good targets.
16:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they're going to be targets and I'm going to take out a damn then you're taking out cities downstream, you know, it's crazy.
17:04
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I mean, all of this time and no one really knew what was coming next.
17:10
[SPEAKER_03]: We didn't know if it was a one-off or if this was just the beginning, right?
17:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Such an uncertain troubling time for those of you who weren't there to experience it,
17:26
[SPEAKER_03]: you then headed south for your your work in where were you in South America this time?
17:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So at that trip I was heading to Panama not to work this time was just for fun and teamed up with an international group of extreme professional co-workers.
17:44
[SPEAKER_01]: One fellow pet co-worker from the United States, a professional co-worker from Israel and a female professional co-worker from Norway and we all convened in Panama
17:55
[SPEAKER_01]: to stay at this rafting company that I had done some work for the year before and they hosted us and we kind of just explored a lot of the extreme class five rivers.
18:06
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of them had had already been mapped out and explored and but then we were able to do some first the census well while we were there.
18:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Brad, I want to pause for just a second there and talk about campfire ranch and the reason I thought this was a great place to do it is because we just spent the last 20 minutes or so talking about community around a sport and how fun it is and what campfire ranch is offering in Belivista Arkansas is the facility that can really accommodate that sort of an idea where you can get a community of friends together, stay together, write on the
18:43
[SPEAKER_03]: What some people are calling, the mountain bike capital of the world, think about it for a second.
18:49
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a lodge that has seven private bedrooms with on-sweet bathrooms and communal spaces for gathering, for relaxing after a long day on the trails.
18:58
[SPEAKER_03]: What a great place to take a group of friends to enjoy what this place has.
19:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And this location is called Campfire Ranch Little Sugar.
19:08
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a trailside lodge, again in Bellovista, Arkansas.
19:11
[SPEAKER_03]: The campfire ranch is all about creating meaningful human experiences in the outdoors, and at all of their locations, from campgrounds to trailside lodges and backcountry huts, there goes to help you stay where you want in the way that you want, so you can spend more time just being out there and getting after your sport.
19:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Little Sugar has immediate access to over 160 miles of public trails designed for mountain biking, gravel biking, trail running and hiking and easy access to the food art and music scene of downtown Bentonville nearby.
19:46
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you would like to try campfire ranch little sugar, then you can get 15% off all the way through the end of 2026.
19:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Just go to campfirerange.co-slash-asp for the adventurous sports podcast that's campfirerange.co-slash-asp for 15% off.
20:16
[SPEAKER_03]: not everyone knows what we're talking about.
20:18
[SPEAKER_03]: We can't assume that people do.
20:20
[SPEAKER_03]: So we should talk about the class system so people understand when you say class five first dissents, that means something to me.
20:28
[SPEAKER_03]: But how does the classification system work?
20:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so moving water would be class one.
20:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Class two, you see some ripples and some waves.
20:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Class three, you have to, you just have to start navigating your, your craft to kind of get through successfully.
20:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you don't, it's probably not going to be too bad.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Class four, you definitely have to make some maneuvers with your craft, whether it's kayak, canoe, raft, whatever it is.
20:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Class five,
20:53
[SPEAKER_01]: there's going to be several maneuvers that you're going to have to make.
20:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you don't successfully make those maneuvers, there could be pretty dire consequences, either injury or worse.
21:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And then one of the jokes in white water is, you know, you class six is unrenable, because if you can rent it, it's class five.
21:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, with it probably class five is the classification that has the the greatest disparity of what people consider class five.
21:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Because for some people class three maybe class five.
21:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It all depends on skill and then you're talking about big water high volume rapids with.
21:29
[SPEAKER_01]: enormous waves and hydraulics.
21:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of those are class five versus tight, technical creaking class five really takes a totally different skill set and could have totally different consequences where at a creek you can get pinned or you know suffer head injuries from hitting rocks where in high volume class five you could flush drown if you come out of your kayak and just because the volume can overwhelm you even
21:54
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're talking about class five, you're talking about the upper reaches of what people can do in a kayak.
22:01
[SPEAKER_03]: There are a lot of terms there.
22:02
[SPEAKER_03]: You mentioned hydraulic.
22:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Explain hydraulics.
22:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so rapids in a river is, if people have seen them or been on them, they're formed by water going over a rock and then that elevation that it takes, then crashes back down to the riverbed and that forms a wave traditionally.
22:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But if the angle of it is such that it hits the water and then that wave comes up instead of traveling continuously downstream, it folds back on top of itself and another
22:30
[SPEAKER_01]: a colloquial turn for a hydraulic as a whole.
22:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So it'll actually just form a hole.
22:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll the water will fold back on top of itself.
22:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And that motion of the water crashing and then folding back on top of itself can hold people or boats in and in a retinative manner.
22:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes those are really fun places for people to go and kayaks if anybody has ever seen freestyle kayaking and I competed for several years and that we go into waves or hydraulics because you want to be in a written and a feature that's going to keep you in one place so you can do tricks in maneuvers.
23:04
[SPEAKER_01]: But then sometimes they can be
23:07
[SPEAKER_01]: really bad places to be.
23:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if you think about it, if anybody's ever seen a low-head dam, those are perfect hydraulics because of the angles of them being 90 degree angle, pourovers, that water folds back on top of itself and has no exit points on either shoulder of the hydraulics.
23:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why low-head dams are so very dangerous in our notice drowning machines because they're not natural features that have exit points for people.
23:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's like you can't get out of this one not easily.
23:40
[SPEAKER_03]: So public service announcement, if you're caught in a hydraulic like this, it's like water is going uphill on both sides and it's trying to push you down from both sides.
23:49
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's really, really difficult.
23:51
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't really vote or swim out of a keeper very well.
23:55
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you get out?
23:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so most of the time in natural features, there's going to be shoulders, but not always.
24:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So the shoulders being the edges of the hydraulic, and that's where we call it green water and the green water is the water that's flowing downstream.
24:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you can get to the edge and catch enough green water to get downstream, that's one way.
24:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes that's not a possibility.
24:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there has to be some water going downstream from the keeper or there would be no water downstream, right?
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: The other way is there is water that's going downstream, but it's usually on the surface of the riverbed.
24:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So the other option is to get recirculated back to the water that's coming over the rock feature, and let that push you really deep and catch the green water on the bottom of the riverbed and hope that that pushes you downstream to clear the hydraulic.
24:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the other method there.
24:52
[SPEAKER_01]: another public service announcement for people swimming in white water.
24:55
[SPEAKER_01]: The big thing you want to never do is try to stand up and move in water.
25:00
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like the the big no-no.
25:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So you either swim on your back with your toes pointed downstream or you can see your toes or an aggressive posture like on your belly swimming like like you would be in a pool trying to expedite yourself rescue.
25:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's nuts.
25:17
[SPEAKER_03]: If you are out of your boat and you're in one of these hydrologs, if it's a keeper, it's kind of counterintuitive to think down is out.
25:23
[SPEAKER_03]: I've got to go where I'm trying not to go, but it works.
25:28
[SPEAKER_03]: You just swim down the current kicks you out and then you're able to recover as a general rule, but that's also one of the distinctions about the different classes of water.
25:39
[SPEAKER_03]: In class three, you can generally just swim out of stuff.
25:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Class five self-rescue is gonna be extremely difficult.
25:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and so when you see people running class five often There's someone on a on a rock perched over the water with a throw rope They're there to help anyone who gets in trouble and you need a spotter like that.
26:03
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's it's kind of crazy But man waters no joke.
26:07
[SPEAKER_03]: It's no joke
26:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the most powerful force in nature.
26:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Water always wins.
26:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just look at your basement.
26:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, every every basement is going to flood at some point because water will always win.
26:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You may have a new basement.
26:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It just means it's not going to get water in it yet, but you know, water always wins.
26:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't care what the force of nature is water is the most powerful.
26:28
[SPEAKER_03]: I've had a lot of people here in Colorado compare kayaking to skiing to downhill skiing.
26:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Because when you're on a river that has lots of features, your boat is skipping over the top.
26:40
[SPEAKER_03]: You're actually sliding on the water.
26:42
[SPEAKER_03]: You're not always going with the flow.
26:44
[SPEAKER_03]: You're actually going faster than the flow.
26:46
[SPEAKER_03]: And it starts to feel like downhill skiing.
26:48
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like skiing the moguls, except you're on water.
26:51
[SPEAKER_03]: But one huge distinction is that the snow is solid, more or less.
26:57
[SPEAKER_03]: And the water is ever changing.
27:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and so the, it's just so much more dynamic.
27:04
[SPEAKER_03]: You see a feature on a river, and if I were skiing, I would know exactly what to expect, but when you get to that feature, I've been spun around, turned upside down, it worked so many different ways.
27:16
[SPEAKER_03]: So just, I didn't expect, and a lot of that comes with experience Brad that I never got enough of.
27:21
[SPEAKER_03]: How do people get good enough to be able to boat
27:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the first thing I think people should definitely do is to take a class, take lessons, because of how counterintuitive the sport is.
27:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you need to be comfortable upside down in that low oxygen environment and then learn proficiently how to roll yourself back up.
27:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But then when people start to progress, one of the things we always say in kayaking is you practice hard moves on easy water.
27:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't want to be in the middle of that class five creek and have this move that you have to make or there's going to be really bad consequences.
28:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And you've never made that move before, because a lot of times you can replicate the skills needed to make that move on a class three, but without the consequences or class four.
28:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So you would have had practice those maneuvers and putting your boat in such tight, small windows in different, all kinds of different ways backwards sideways.
28:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I think play boating is one of the best ways, you know, if they're in Colorado, you think it'd run like the Shashone, you know, a class two, three, go out there in a play boat and stirren squared and try to, any line cartwheel and surf waves and inevitably you're going to flip in those things and you're going to be in moving water and that's going to have, have make you roll and combat situations where I think a lot of people have the mindset of like, I just got to get down this river and I want to do it without getting my, my hair wet.
28:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's usually pretty good goal if you're running class 5, but if you're running class 2, 3, especially with a group of people in a controlled setting, you want to push yourself and get out there and flip as much as possible so that you're comfortable being upside down and rolling and then rescue and if you have to.
29:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Real practice is like everything for me at least at where I was on my skill level.
29:11
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like learning how to have a bomb proof role that you can do in any current in any situation.
29:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think I ever got there.
29:19
[SPEAKER_03]: But Brad, I have to tell you one thing that was super fun.
29:21
[SPEAKER_03]: My buddies and I decided we wanted to kayak every day of the year in Colorado.
29:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Not every day, every month.
29:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry.
29:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
29:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Every month.
29:29
[SPEAKER_03]: and that meant some winter boating so we had to find a river that wasn't frozen and access was always a problem and we learned the funnest way to do it was to go up the mountain next to the river and get in the boats up there and then we would tobog and down and it go off some sort of a drop and splash into the water it's that was just that was some of the funnest times I've had.
29:49
[SPEAKER_03]: I enjoyed that so much and the water was so cold so we said all right so it's January and you're kayaking it doesn't count unless you do a roll.
29:59
[SPEAKER_03]: That was our rule.
30:01
[SPEAKER_03]: We had to get wet.
30:02
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know.
30:03
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a ton of fun ton of fun.
30:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, living in the southeast, you know, like I said, I traveled to Latin America a lot in the winter time.
30:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I had three years where I had an endless summer.
30:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't feel temperatures below 60 degrees for three straight years.
30:15
[SPEAKER_01]: But then, like, going to college in the Western North Carolina, the winners are pretty mild.
30:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So we were able to kayak all year long.
30:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So actually one of the only times I've kayacked in snow was in June in Colorado.
30:30
[SPEAKER_01]: In Crested Viewed on OB-Joyful Creek.
30:32
[SPEAKER_01]: We had a race there.
30:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And we had like six inches of snow and it was the middle of June.
30:38
[SPEAKER_03]: as it as it does here.
30:42
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean that I don't know if you realize but that's that's where I live just down Valley from OB joyful Creek.
30:47
[SPEAKER_03]: That's it's super cool.
30:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah OB joyful Daisy that whole area we have been there a lot.
30:53
[SPEAKER_03]: That's fantastic.
30:54
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's go back to Panama.
30:55
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to take a rapid trail there, but it was time for me.
30:58
[SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about first descents on class five.
31:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
31:03
[SPEAKER_03]: What was that like?
31:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just incredible and in a fellow by the name of John Miller, he was the one really opened up a lot of the first descents in Panama and was one of the first people to take me there and show me
31:15
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of these and I went back like said that the following year I met up with this international group and we were doing this this run that had been done a few times but there's one rapid that several groups had been on this run.
31:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean talking some of the best kayakers in the world and everybody had decided to portage this rapid.
31:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And this one day that year, we were there and we were looking at it and me and the kayak from Norway, we decided it, it looked pretty good and we decided to go and it was a really complex boulder garden lead in with a big drop, like a 10 foot kind of slidy waterfall in the middle that all funnled left to this like 20 foot waterfall in the base of this 20 foot waterfall, it funneled into a cave.
32:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And because we lead in funneled left and that's where you would go off if you went off wrong and you'd go into the cave you wanted to go off right, but this lead in drop forced you left and so in any of those three drops by themselves would have been pretty manageable for.
32:19
[SPEAKER_01]: our skill level, but it was just the way that they set up as the reason why so many people had portage in the past.
32:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But that that pattern I, we decided to run it.
32:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I went first and was successful.
32:30
[SPEAKER_01]: That pattern just came off and came off wrong and got pushed into that cave.
32:36
[SPEAKER_01]: We were with the the pattern.
32:38
[SPEAKER_01]: But we weren't able to get to the the kayaker without we try to throw ropes and things so we decided the only way to get the pallor out of there was I had to paddle through the base of the waterfall into the cave and join the pallor in there and then get the boat out get the pallor out of kayaking back through kind of the the force of the waterfall coming coming in so that was.
33:03
[SPEAKER_01]: pretty scary, and probably one of the only times, well, you've rescued people a lot of times, especially teaching kayak, and maybe to beginners and things, and they may feel like their life's in jeopardy, but that was one of the only few times that I felt like what I was doing at this point was definitely the lives were in the balance.
33:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
33:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Man, that'll, that'll sear a memory into your brain.
33:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but do you ever think of that and kind of like, dang, wow, you know, I did a little shiver runs up your spine.
33:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm glad we got through that one.
33:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm glad we got through that one and, you know, it very easily could have been me on the other side.
33:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And that pattern is one of the best kayakers in the world.
33:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And went on to have an amazing, amazing career.
33:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I have, would have been the roles reversed
33:52
[SPEAKER_01]: uh... that that kind of could have very easily got me out of just the way it happened that day and uh... certainly i have been on the receiving end of many rescues and uh... what since i've come back in a kayaking where your skills and you're strengthened is not as strong i had to be on the receiving end of a rescue this fall on the galley river speaking of uh... so you know you're just you're just fortunate that either
34:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You're able to help somebody or that you've got really good strong friends who are there to help you in case it need be so that you can stay safe because it is it is a really dangerous sport and unfortunately, you know, we've lost a lot of really close friends who are all very, very skilled top of the top of the sport pathers because of the dangers involved.
34:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, what you'd said, the water always wins.
34:39
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't mean you want everyone's going to be hurt in the water.
34:44
[SPEAKER_03]: But it does mean that the forces you're dealing with are out of this world.
34:49
[SPEAKER_03]: They are unbelieveable forces.
34:52
[SPEAKER_03]: You think it wouldn't be so bad.
34:54
[SPEAKER_03]: I got pinned at the bottom of a little drop, tiny little drop.
34:58
[SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't that big of a deal.
34:59
[SPEAKER_03]: But the way that I was pinned, the boat folded, because of the currents, folded the boat across my knees.
35:05
[SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't get out.
35:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I was there because I was, I was literally folded into the boat and it kept trying to turn the boat upside down at the same time and I thought, okay, so I'm not going to have air, I can't keep my head up and I can't get my legs out and these sorts of things happen.
35:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
35:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
35:23
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the most scary things in a boat is to be trapped pinned in your kayak, not be able to get out.
35:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a bad situation for sure.
35:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it is.
35:33
[SPEAKER_03]: How can you avoid those sorts of things?
35:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they're, they're, they're just really, really bad luck.
35:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And you end up getting pinned in a situation where you didn't expect it didn't see it.
35:45
[SPEAKER_01]: But just proper scouting, proper experience.
35:48
[SPEAKER_01]: running rapids in in reading white water and kind of you start to get familiar with the way Rapids look and sometimes they just look you just get this innate sense through experience of scene waves The way they're shaped sometimes will tell you that Iraq is not shaped friendly We definitely what rocks that are rounded but if they have kind of flakes or you know kind of ledges that stick up that could pin a kick
36:17
[SPEAKER_01]: just prohibit you from going downstream.
36:19
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what you want to look for.
36:21
[SPEAKER_01]: But then there's river features called SIDS and that's where you have two rocks and they're close enough together that a kayak cannot go through it but far enough apart that water can and so you want to avoid those type of those are probably those in strut will be called strainers where you've got something in the water like a tree that again is blocking you or the kayak from going down
36:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are the two most dangerous features of a river, I think.
36:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Even worse than a hydraulic that we talked about earlier.
36:50
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, we're probably scaring people a little bit.
36:54
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's caution is warranted with this sport.
36:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
36:58
[SPEAKER_03]: But you can do it safely and you can do it without the more extreme experiences.
37:03
[SPEAKER_03]: But what's your recommendation, Brad?
37:04
[SPEAKER_03]: How can people get into it in a safe way?
37:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely shouldn't scare people.
37:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, when you come on an adventurous sports podcast, I think sometimes stories lend themselves to the extreme, because you're entertaining, you know what I mean?
37:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's what we talk about.
37:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't think people would want to hear like all the trips down class to rivers that I've done.
37:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, you, those stories stick out for a reason because they are extreme.
37:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But I really think kayaking, it has a,
37:31
[SPEAKER_01]: a slow learning progression at first because of being upside down and having to exit out of your kayak and swimming and things.
37:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But once you get proficient, class two, two, two, three, and you're able to have a role, people can really progress really fast.
37:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we started recording, I mentioned that I got into the sport through my father who was a downriver and flat water racer.
37:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And so in 1997, when I went to work at the Nanahail Outdoor Center as a rough guide,
38:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And I could paddle very, very fast.
38:04
[SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't know how to catch eddies that I didn't know how to roll.
38:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm working as a raf guy in the largest rafting company in the United States.
38:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
38:11
[SPEAKER_01]: The end of 1998, and I always spent three months there because I went back to Indiana to go to college.
38:16
[SPEAKER_01]: By the end of the next summer, I was running class for white water.
38:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Really regularly had gotten checked out as an instructor.
38:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the end of the next summer,
38:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to Mexico to work with my first adventure travel trip.
38:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So like when I went, you know, October of 99, I've really only spent about seven months in a kayak.
38:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So my progression was really, really fast.
38:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I was in a place where I could do that every day, and I was surrounded by great kayakers, and I was young.
38:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I was 18, 19, 20 years old.
38:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had this super ambition to push myself to be the best kayaker that I could possibly be.
38:50
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, the first trip then Mexico I was for one years old that never been out of the country before and I'd got hired to work as a safety kayaker at a rafting company in the very cruise region of Mexico.
39:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And they had just,
39:03
[SPEAKER_01]: suffered some really tragic floods there and another rafting company hired me to come along to basically be the test dummy on some of their runs to make sure that it was safe for commercial traffic again, so that was pretty interesting as well.
39:18
[SPEAKER_03]: well and rivers do change and when when they've was they change especially and so you might think you know what you're getting into but the crazy thing is a river will be different one day to the next is because of the flow rate the level of the water everything changes yes and so every run is a different run
39:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
39:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And in North Carolina and East Tennessee, right now, they've experienced this really recently.
39:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Last year, we had the tragic flooding from Hurricane Haleen.
39:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And it has changed the course of several rivers, very, very popular whitewater destinations like the Green River.
39:54
[SPEAKER_01]: the pigeon river and the no-lo-checky river.
39:57
[SPEAKER_01]: The green river specifically was a class five destination.
40:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So many great cikers come from that region kind of around Asheville, North Carolina because the green river is damp controlled.
40:09
[SPEAKER_01]: but it's class five, and so it runs every day.
40:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And so people who live there have this training ground where they can go out and paddle class five, we talked about Colorado.
40:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got class five creeks everywhere, but you might only have a three month window when you can do them, where it's too cold and the winter and the water's all frozen on top of the mountains.
40:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But in Western North Carolina it's rain dependent.
40:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So we would have the same issue except here's this beautiful river that runs literally every single day and as a very very extreme class five run.
40:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a race on it every year, and it's one of the most famous extreme races in the kayaking world, but halene devastated that whole, that whole gorge in that whole area, and it totally changed all the rapids and knocked out the dam, so the river no longer runs with a continuous flow every day.
41:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But just the first week in November, they were able to have the race again, and so it was really happy for that community to kind of start to heal and
41:07
[SPEAKER_01]: and bring everybody back together on a river.
41:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I never, that in the Golly River, probably the two rivers that have the most, just since a community that people, it just attracts people from all over the world too.
41:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was really happy for that community to start to heal and start to rebuild.
41:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's a good sign when people are like, okay, back back to normal, see the new normal, whatever it is, right?
41:31
[SPEAKER_03]: And frankly, that's what we have to do.
41:33
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to sound insensitive, but that's one of the secrets of life.
41:36
[SPEAKER_03]: His suffer when you need to suffer, grief when you need to grieve and then start living again because there's no other way to do it.
41:44
[SPEAKER_03]: You just have to.
41:45
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
41:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, for those people who experienced that, I mean, you know, there was obviously lives lost, homes lost, businesses lost, yeah, tragic.
41:54
[SPEAKER_01]: But that community really banded together.
41:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And that fell in the time of my life when I was out of the sport, but following and had so many friends who were impacted by it and was so heartwarming to see how that community banded together.
42:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you think
42:08
[SPEAKER_01]: With all this water, that would be the perfect time for everybody to go kayak and everybody just hit pause.
42:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, nope, we're not going kayak.
42:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You number one, lots of people need our help.
42:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Number two, it's disrespectful.
42:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Number three, we're impacting places that may not have the infrastructure yet, just because we want to go recreate.
42:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And so those kayakers in that community, all hit pause and banded together and got people water.
42:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes, whether through kayaking skills or just outdoor skills, they had the skills necessary to get two people,
42:37
[SPEAKER_01]: to help in the back country and things and people that might have been flooded or trapped, so they all banded together really, really well.
42:46
[SPEAKER_01]: helped a lot of people in need and the whole Western North Carolina East Tennessee community as a special place and it was it was great to see I was terrible to see what happened but great to see how the community very similarly what happened after 9-11.
43:00
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the worst things in our country's history but the way people banded together afterwards was heartwarming and you saw the same thing and the aftermath of pulling
43:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, very much so and I love the way that people come together in times of need it's I'm going to say community again you find out what your community is made of When this happens and there are so many people that are are so willing to give so much it's uh I don't know it redeems redeems my opinion of humanity every time I see it so yeah absolutely well
43:36
[SPEAKER_03]: So you had to remap a river in Mexico.
43:40
[SPEAKER_03]: You mentioned this trip, I think, already, but it was after a dramatic flood, too.
43:44
[SPEAKER_03]: So what was that about?
43:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Except, it went down there to work as a safety kayaker.
43:49
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the other local companies there, one of the bigger companies, reached out to me.
43:53
[SPEAKER_01]: They were having, um,
43:54
[SPEAKER_01]: One of those multi-discipline races, adventure races, where people have to, they might mount near and then they might swim across the river, or they might raft on a river, and they were having one of those there in this area of Mexico, and one leg, these people had to swim across this class to rapid, to get from one side of the river to the next, and they were in the eat of safety cackers to kind of patrol and make sure that the people didn't get swept further downstream
44:23
[SPEAKER_01]: and the guy who owned the rafting company was kind of in charge of the safety for that and hired me to do that.
44:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And then after spending that a couple of days with him, he said, hey,
44:32
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to this other river that we normally raft on, but he got really impacted by the flood, and we don't know how it's been changed.
44:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like villages got wiped out kind of thing, and we want to take rafts, but we would like first in really advanced kayakers to kind of go in front of us to kind of scout it out to tell us if it's navigable for rafts or not.
44:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I joined them on that kind of the next kind of a,
44:58
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it wasn't a first to sit, but kind of a re-first to sit, right?
45:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of a re-election for the first time, unfortunately, saw some pretty bad devastation from some of the villages that were impacted downstream, but, you know, quite the adventure as well.
45:12
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, again, 20 years old, everything is new and experienced for me, but also wanting to push myself and challenge myself at the highest level.
45:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So, kind of battling those dynamics and those feelings of seeing this,
45:26
[SPEAKER_01]: this human tragedy, but also really excited for what I'm getting to do.
45:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.
45:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, a lot of mixed feelings.
45:40
[SPEAKER_03]: you know what's neat about it is that you were able to use your skill to potentially help people and that's something that I think is super cool and you also mentioned that talking about heline people that had the ability in the skill became an asset and that's something that we don't talk a lot about with the adventure sports podcast.
45:58
[SPEAKER_03]: But it really is true.
46:00
[SPEAKER_03]: When you develop your skills and any of these things, it empowers you then to make a difference in times of need.
46:06
[SPEAKER_03]: And it can be that country skiing.
46:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
46:10
[SPEAKER_03]: It can be wilderness rescue.
46:11
[SPEAKER_03]: It can be, you know, water sports like you're talking about.
46:15
[SPEAKER_03]: But as you you improve your skill, you actually have the opportunity to help other people.
46:21
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I want to go to the modern day now, right.
46:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
46:24
[SPEAKER_03]: So you, you taught for 20 years and still teach you to get a high school teacher.
46:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Last fantastic.
46:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've got to be the bills.
46:34
[SPEAKER_03]: That's even better.
46:35
[SPEAKER_03]: But you're getting back into kayaking now and you even have a kayak school.
46:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Am I right about that?
46:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm just, I wouldn't call it a school, but I'm starting to do some of my own instruction again.
46:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I was a kayak instructor for many years at the NNL Outdoor Center.
46:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
46:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, kind of launching a program to help kayakers here in the local Kentucky area.
46:56
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a really strong growing club here and kind of reaching out to them and finding out ways that I can help kayakers either get into the sport or advance their skill level so that we can continue to grow this community.
47:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And urban white water parks have become a great asset to the sport.
47:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we're going to be one of the things that really help the sport grow.
47:16
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a great whitewater park in Charlotte and with Carolina.
47:18
[SPEAKER_01]: There's one in Birmingham, Alabama.
47:20
[SPEAKER_01]: There's one Oklahoma City, Oklahoma that's going to host the Olympics in 2028.
47:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So the Olympics are in Los Angeles, but the white water is going to be in Oklahoma City.
47:31
[SPEAKER_03]: So not where I would think of white water.
47:33
[SPEAKER_01]: No, not at all.
47:34
[SPEAKER_01]: These urban whitewater parks are kind of bringing whitewater to the masses because, you know, unlike skiing, where families can go on vacation to Vail or Aspen or Steamboat and there's restaurants and there's bars, and you can go down the bunny slope or you can go, you can pick your your poison right for how extreme you want it to be.
47:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you get done, you've got a cozy fire and a restaurant and a steakhouse and things.
47:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
48:00
[SPEAKER_01]: with kayaking.
48:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Now granted, you can certainly go back country and not have those things, but for families from Denver or St. Louis, and they want to go out whatever, you know, they can go find that adventure for a weekend and being as pretty controlled environment.
48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: But with kayaking,
48:18
[SPEAKER_01]: like steamboat or like Durango or you're from or for where I'm at like the Nanahel out or center they're pretty remote or they're in small towns but now bringing urban whitewater centers to these major cities is really going to expand the sport because people can go for a hike along the river they there's there's pubs and there's activity centers there's zip lines not bike trails and so they're building one right here in my backyard and so I'm hoping to get to
48:47
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, do some activities there with them as well.
48:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's going to be right across the river and the southern Indiana area.
48:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're really excited about that coming coming to our area.
48:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was another kind of motivation for me to want to get back into the sport is I'm now going to have white water in my backyard in this urban white water park.
49:06
[SPEAKER_03]: That's very cool.
49:06
[SPEAKER_03]: What's the name of this park again?
49:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So the the park the greater park is called origin park and then the white water center is going to be wild water at origin park.
49:16
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, they've already announced that I'm not breaking anything that I shouldn't they've already announced and everything that just got to finalize the funding, but they're hoping to open in summer of 29.
49:25
[SPEAKER_03]: One thing that I love about these is that they can craft the rapid, so that it's challenging, it's playful, it's fun, and you don't have the extreme keepers or strainers or, you know, that sort of thing.
49:39
[SPEAKER_03]: They can put them together in a way that reduces the risk as you're learning.
49:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for a lot of most of kayaking, there was this just complete crossover of all the different skill sets, people who did freestyle also did extreme people did extreme did freestyle slalom kayakers would also do extreme, but if you think about like skiing
49:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be a backcountry skier and never get on half pipes, right, or things.
50:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
50:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And St. Bay, you could go to your lift every day and never be in backcountry.
50:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Now with these urban parks, it's really like said opening up, kayak into so many more people that may not feel comfortable going to the middle of the mountains in the middle of the back country, to do extreme or to go to South America.
50:22
[SPEAKER_01]: But they can go after work or school and go down class two, three white water and then grab a burger and a beer afterwards.
50:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That means those people are buying gear.
50:31
[SPEAKER_01]: They're taking lessons.
50:32
[SPEAKER_01]: They're contributing to the sport and the sports growing by bringing white water to those areas.
50:39
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, that's that's super cool.
50:41
[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of like the ski hill idea.
50:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, except you back, but at wherever there's some water.
50:45
[SPEAKER_03]: That's that's super fun.
50:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you don't even need water because they're making them where they're just their self-contained in their pump.
50:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So obviously, you've got to take a little bit of space out of it.
50:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to bring water in.
50:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, they're not even some of them are taking natural river beds and forming them and building things around them.
51:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But like this one, the one in Charlotte and the one in Birmingham and the one in Oklahoma City were just built completely artificial.
51:09
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm going to, I'm going to share this one.
51:11
[SPEAKER_03]: That actually has another advantage, Brad.
51:16
[SPEAKER_03]: But, depending on the water quality, it was in the middle of the city, and we'd get out of there, and my wife would say, man, you do not smell right, even after a shower.
51:26
[SPEAKER_03]: We started calling it the sewer surf.
51:28
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
51:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, that's the beauty of what you're talking about.
51:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Is the water quality can be safe, and you don't have to take that risk.
51:36
[SPEAKER_03]: What about GRD, and water borne illnesses?
51:39
[SPEAKER_03]: What should kayakers know about that?
51:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and there was actually a case in Charlotte on one of these, these pump features, and I don't really know how it happened or anything like that.
51:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been really fortunate I've only gotten sick one time.
51:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it was kayaking or if I was just in Panama, and Panama is a really safe, clean country relatively speaking for Central America.
51:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't know if I got waterborne illness where I got six, some other way, but I lost like 20 pounds in a month.
52:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
52:06
[SPEAKER_01]: and Panama from some sort of tropical disease.
52:09
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people wear those plugs.
52:11
[SPEAKER_01]: If they're going to be flipping a lot, there's even really good ear plugs that they make where you can still kind of hear pretty well that at the same ones that they make for like scuba diving and surfing.
52:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That also help with, there's a really weird disorder called surfers here where you get bone gross on the inside of your inner ear canal from exposure to cold water.
52:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, and I have those people in the doctors in the Midwest aren't familiar with them.
52:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So the first time when I moved back home and got it Just kind of regular check up the doctor kind of jump back was like, what's wrong with your ear?
52:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, that's the video.
52:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just bone gross from cold water But those earplugs can help with that as well.
52:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Just not getting that exposure to cold water.
52:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are things you can do but for the most part, you know, kind of Be smart about where you're packing looking at the water color and clarity and
53:03
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, higher up the mountains, you go, usually the better off you are, but, you know, I wouldn't want to be downstream of a lot of cattle farms and major cities and when I was in Mexico, the river that we were on was relatively clean for Mexico, but downstream of where we took out there was another creek that flowed in.
53:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And it had these beautiful waterfalls that flow that, you know, it cascaded in.
53:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, why don't we go up there and check that out and let we drove up closer in the locals and the other people at battle, they're like, that's why.
53:33
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if like puss, it was like the sewer of one of the towns and they're like, that's the reason we go upstream of where that comes in, I was like, okay, yeah, we don't want to go there.
53:44
[SPEAKER_03]: haha man yeah we tried a lot of stuff in places we probably shouldn't have been learned that there's just some waterways regretfully and i'm serious regretfully i mean the water is a lifeblood of the planet if you want to know if if nature is healthy in a place just look at the water if the water is not healthy you know there's a problem and uh it's just like you know we we go to the doctor they take our blood so that they can figure out what's wrong with us if you sample the water in these places you can learn a lot
54:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Brad, for just a minute, talk about the why, what is kayaking done for you, and why are you getting back into it now?
54:21
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, what's the motivation behind this?
54:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You saw like my wife.
54:26
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what she's asking me.
54:27
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, are you missing something alive?
54:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, no, I'm not really missing something alive.
54:31
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, coaching took me away from it.
54:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm just kind of at a age and stage of life now where I have a little bit more freedom.
54:37
[SPEAKER_01]: My daughter's a little older now, so as you know, not needing me as much.
54:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just really missing it.
54:43
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, why when I was younger,
54:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It was partly ego.
54:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely had a desire to be one of the best kayakers in the world and wanted to pursue that dream.
54:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But it then also took me to incredible places to see canyons and jungles and things that you could not access other than being a proficient kayaker.
55:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really love the adventure.
55:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Also just love water.
55:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I've dabbled in sailing and I've surfed kayaks in the ocean.
55:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And I like to swim.
55:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I like to just go to like water parks.
55:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if we go to music park, I want to go to the water park and just ride water slides because to me of those things like kayaks.
55:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So water is kind of my natural habitat and where I feel the most at peace and at ease.
55:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But now that I'm older,
55:32
[SPEAKER_01]: the ego's gone and I just love being on free flowing rivers and going downstream and feeling that boat move with the rapid and be able to plant my blade of my paddle in the water and then for just a moment I can not control the water but I can work with the water to make my boat do these really beautiful things and then the community that people involved but I just
55:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I love kayaking, I love nature, I love mountains, and it brings all those things together.
56:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm now even at an age where I don't mind going out for a flat water workout or getting into the pool to practice rolling, which I'd never would have done when I was younger.
56:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So like I said, when I was younger, definitely the extreme, the adventure, chasing, the dream of trying to be a sponsored athlete.
56:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So the student at the work, you could just kayak.
56:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Now it's just all about being on the water and feeling that flow of the rapids again.
56:27
[SPEAKER_03]: That's nice.
56:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Very, very cool stuff.
56:31
[SPEAKER_03]: So if people want to learn more about kayaking with you, how do they do it?
56:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so for right now, I think the best thing to do is to check out my podcast and that's B flow sessions.
56:45
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find it Spotify and Apple on YouTube.
56:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But then, you know, people can also reach me at bflow kayaking at gmail.com and going to be offering kayak lessons starting in 2026 where people can reach out and learn how to kayak and take pool rolling classes.
57:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm pretty geographically based.
57:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, you know, in your podcast goes globally.
57:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So I advise people to find a local paddling club, find a local kayak school, and go take a pool-rolling class, go reach out to somebody just to find whoever you can in your area and get involved in the sport because it's so beautiful.
57:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Connection with nature.
57:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great workout and it's something you can do for a very very long time I have mentors of mine who are in their 7 late 70s who are so cocky and class 4 or 5 white water So you can you can do it for a very very long time and You know, it helps you in so many ways physically and mentally spiritually all the above So definitely when everybody to try to get involved in kayaking if they can
57:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Man, absolutely.
57:47
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's fantastic for core strength.
57:50
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what you're gonna have.
57:51
[SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna have a strong core, if you do this, and I would recommend staying on the class three a little bit longer than you want to.
57:58
[SPEAKER_03]: That would be a good idea.
58:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Stay on the class three a little bit longer than you want to and practice those tricks.
58:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Find a place where you can serve a hydraulic safely and learn how to do everything the boat can do.
58:12
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean,
58:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, I really lose on, do hard moves on easy water for sure.
58:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
58:19
[SPEAKER_03]: That's so cool.
58:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Well Brad, thank you so much for sharing all of this.
58:24
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so jazzed and makes me want to get back in the boat.
58:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I do still have my old overflow sitting in the yard and I, what a boat, you know, back in the day.
58:34
[SPEAKER_01]: On my podcast, I ask, I bring on the top kayakers in the world and I ask them, what advice would you give to a young kayaker someone starting?
58:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And what advice would you give to people like you and I who are who have left the sport and getting back into it And one of the things all of them say and people told me this and I was like, oh yeah, whatever is throw away your old boat.
58:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So your overflow is no good anymore.
58:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to go get all these people
58:57
[SPEAKER_01]: the designs of them, the rocker, the alfitting, their cheat codes.
59:00
[SPEAKER_01]: They make it so easy.
59:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So I definitely advise people to go to your local outfitter.
59:05
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the price of a kayaks about $1,600 brand new, which sounds like a lot, but compare that to other outdoor adventure sports.
59:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's still one of the cheaper sports to get involved in.
59:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to pay lift fees and all those things that you do, sometimes a scheme.
59:20
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
59:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, compare that to a full suspension mountain bike
59:25
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a relatively cheap entry point, yeah, definitely, and yes, it's funny because the advice when I was doing this sport, when I got the overflow, was get rid of your old kayak, because the overflow was so much better.
59:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but you're right, it's just an awful lot of both these days, and I'm sure that the technology is taking this to amazing places.
59:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely, I've been blown away by these new boats, it's been a lot of fun.
59:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, in the same thing with the ski industry, I finally got new skis a while back, and then I got new skis again, and every time I get new skis after a few years, I'm like, wow, I'm 10 years younger.
1:00:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so it's fantastic.
1:00:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, Brad, thank you so much for sharing kayaking.
1:00:10
[SPEAKER_03]: You're enthusiasm, you love for the sport, your experiences.
1:00:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I've had a good time.
1:00:14
[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for having me too.
1:00:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate it, and again, thanks for everything you do with this podcast.
1:00:19
[SPEAKER_01]: keeps winters and days and midwest, you know, a lot more fun sometimes.
1:00:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, good.
1:00:26
[SPEAKER_03]: We can get through the the off-season a little bit better together, you know?
1:00:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
1:00:31
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
1:00:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, everyone out there, kayaking might be your thing.
1:00:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Man, water sports are so good.
1:00:36
[SPEAKER_03]: If you live in the right place or even if you don't, find one of these urban kayaking centers fantastic.
1:00:41
[SPEAKER_03]: But whatever you do, make sure you do get out there and have some fun.