Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / The Leaf Killer - Matthew Hoffman

Transcript

The Leaf Killer - Matthew Hoffman · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: True crime stories often talk about and show brutal cases
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: involving individuals who set out to take their victims down
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: before moving on to the next, and so on and repeating.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: These horrific stories show murderers and monsters alike, many with
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: the same motive to hurt, to abuse, to mane, and
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: to kill. But we often forget that there are crimes
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: that get committed out there out of brash decisions, out
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: of panic, and out of fear. Today's case blurs those lines,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: and it's up to you to decide just where on
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: the spectrum this story lays.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben and I'm Nicole, and you're listening to
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast. The following podcast
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: in your audience, listener discution.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: They're not getting in opening this time. No, it happened
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: on Patreon.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Sorry, it happened in the pre show.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: It did, so I do have a drink. But you're
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: not getting a next time on Wicked and Great.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Well, lots of times, yeah all have one, or you'll
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: have one, But yeah, we got nothing today, we got nothing.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Which okay, Nicole just brought up a.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Jedious well, I don't know, Okay, there could be some
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: accounts that are listening to this that are just like, no.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: But it's a possibility. It's a legitimate possibility.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I think I just blew Ben's mind because.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Before we reveal what it is, those accountants would have
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: listened to the show and would know that it is
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: a legitimate part of the episodes. Uh huh and our
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: brand and Wicked and grim. Yeah, so go ahead lay
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: this wisdom on us.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: What did you say, Well, because we had discovered when
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: we were doing our taxes that we can write off
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: our purchased merch for ourselves because like we're basically like
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: a walking billboard.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: We're wearing our merch like our uniform sort of thing. Yeah,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: which blew my mind and I was so excited.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: So then as Ben was literally doing his intro, I
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: don't even know what the fuck he said, because I
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: was just going off in my head here. Thanks, but
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: could we not write off alcohol? You know, like, could
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: we some brewskis a year?
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Because well, think of it this way. If we open
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: up each if we each open up an alcoholic beverage
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: each episode, Yeah, one episode a week, there's two of us,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: we could theoretically write off one hundred and four alcoholic
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: beverages per year, not not mentioning how week.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Or like our Patreon episodes, so exactly, I don't know.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: I think we might be onto something here.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Can we write off booze?
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: Because you actually can though, because when you're doing your restaurants, right,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: say you go out with like a client and you
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: have a glass of wine or something, Oh yeah, you
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: then go write that off. So I feel like writing
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: off alcohol is allowed.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: But how much?
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: And I actually do write off alcohol too in another
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: sense because lots of times I'll give out like a bottle
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: of wine when I'm delivering a wedding, so like as
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: a client gift. So we need to talk to our
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: account I think we just solved it yet we can.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: But yeah, So that's been our first week is talking
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: about business stuff, taxes, really trying to get the root
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: of all these things because I'm officially doing this now
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: full time. It's it's here, it's you're real, You're a weekend.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: It's crazy and we haven't killed each other yet.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going strong. We've done iemasks, spends trying to
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: get me to drink coffee. You know, it's just it's
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: going well.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll be seeing all this stuff on Patreon if
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: you guys want to sign up. If not, though, that's cool.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: You guys are here and we appreciate that. But we
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: do have people who have signed up for Patreon that
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: we have to thank we do. And how many people
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: did you say signed up this week?
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Think were twelve? Were? They're just like pumping over there.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: It's awesome.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: Twelve people signed up this week, which is incredible, So
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: thank you so much. I'm probably gonna butcher some names
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: we actually do there too. We did, so we have
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Christine Kennedy, Amanda Shory, Amber Lee, Marie Lafontaine, Timothy Stewart,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Laura Aldridge got to go over the next list here
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Isabella Wall, Cecilia Ink, the cat Ty Colombo, Kyla Sparkman
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: and Jessica Watts. And Jessica Watts actually just won the
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: getaway too.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just signed up. That's awesome, so.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Boom that easy. Just sign up for Patreon. You win something,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: but you've done, You've win.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: Okay when first, so well, thank you to all of
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: them that, like, yeah, it just blows our mind that
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: we're getting that much the word over there, so thank you.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: But it's funny as you're reading the names. I can
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: see in your eyes, like as you're about to approach
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: a hard name, there's a little bit of fear, just
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: like coming out and I'm like, Okay, that last name
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: is gonna be hard.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, some of them are difficult. It's it's true. And
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: even if you try, and even if you pronounce it correctly,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: like there's different enunciations something, there's different inflections and different
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: languages and heritage, and you don't know if you're actually.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Getting it right, and some words can literally be pronounced
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: like a few ways. Really yeah, that's yeah, it's basically
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: what you said. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so but you did good.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Thank you and thank you to all those people who
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: have signed up.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: And our patrons are are awesome. They're getting some cool
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: content behind the scenes. If you want to sign up
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: join them, link is down below in the description of
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: this podcast. If not, you hear that's cool too, So
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: thank you.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: We appreciate you either way.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: But we also got to talk about fearful. So if
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: you don't know Jacko, who is a part of our
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: podcast and is who are EMC for Halloween week, yep,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: he is coming out with his own podcast.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't have we dropped that on here yet.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: We dropped another thing was coming.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, this is it.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: It's Fearful. Jacko is hosting his own podcast called Fearful,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: and it's all about paranormal mysteries and just creepy shit.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: This is a big deal.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: It's dropping on June first three, so coming up soon.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: You guys can go check out Fearful people over on
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Patreon again. Kind of get a little bit of heads
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: up on this, and they kind of got a little
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: bit of nose no on what's happening there.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: So yeah, very exciting though.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, lots is happening for the world of Wicked and
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Grim absolutely Anyways, shall we press forward?
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: I think so? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, it's gonna
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: be a total surprise since I was thinking about alcohol
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: during your intro.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: So didn't listen to it.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: At all, hardly. I was very distracted.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, the intro didn't say a whole lot about
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: this episode. What it did say is that it kind
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: of blurs the line between those people who are very
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: much so murderers who go out to murder, okay, and
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: those who commit murders and crime via accident. And I'm
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: not saying accident per se but to self defense or whatever.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Something goes south. Right, Oh, so this is gonna be yeah,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: so it's going to blur the line in between, and
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: I want you guys to decide where exactly this lies.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: If it was more accidental, if it was more on purpose.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Interesting, Okay, Okay.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Now I will say right now it's definitely on purpose.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: But I want to know how much on purpose? That's
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: the question.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: So this story takes us off or starts us off
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: with an individual by the name of Tina Rose Hermann. Now,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: Tina was thirty two years old and living in Howard, Ohio.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: She was described by her friends and family as a
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: loving mother. She that's a single mother, raised her two kids,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Sarah Maynard, who was thirteen and Cody Maynard, who was ten. Larry,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: who was a kid's father, was unfortunately no longer in
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: the relationship with Tina, and you know, things just didn't
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: quite work out. So Tina lived with her two kids
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: alone at four eighty one King Beach Drive. Now, being
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: that Tina was supporting herself and her kids now without Larry,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: she was a very diligent and dedicated employee where she worked,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: which is why it was odd when she didn't show
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: up for her scheduled shift one day without calling in.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: Uh oh.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: So usually her day started at work near the evening
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: after her kids came home from school. Okay, she greet
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: him they come home from school, maybe even make him
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: a little dinner or something, and then she head off
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: to go punch the clock. Ok So, when she didn't
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: show up, her manager thought it was well, definitely.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Odd at a character.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she didn't even hear from her, it's not right.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: So she tried to call Tina, but she didn't answer
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: her phone. So, being as concerned as she was, this
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: really was out of character, as you said, she decided
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: she was going to call nine one one. So on
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: November tenth, twenty ten, she called and asked for a
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: welfare check on Tina at her home. So it's not
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: like it's a super emergency, but she's definitely concerned. This
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: is aut a character. Can we get a welfare check?
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Okay? But I also have to admit, like, well done
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: on the boss there, definitely like realizing right away that
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: there could be an issue and actually going about doing
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: something about it. Like I actually loved that. That's good.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: That's good.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that plays a very big part in this actually, Okay,
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: how quickly she was to respond. So the police stopped
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: by her home and made their way up to her door.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: They knocked, but got no response.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: No answer. Now the house kiddos should be there.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Well, exactly, the house was quiet. There was no sound
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: of Tina or her kids. Didn't seem like anyone was home,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: so the police couldn't really do much. They assumed no
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: one was home, maybe she went out of state or something.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: So they walked back down the driveway, got in their car,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: and drove away without any information, which I mean rightfully,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: So it's not like they can storm a house. They
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: don't have a warrant or anything. Right.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, but yeah, you're like, hopefully everything's okay in there.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and again they don't have suspicion, right, And I
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: think to do that just enter a home without a warrant,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: they need suspicion of I'm not sure the exact term,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: but they need suspicion without a reasonable doubt or something like.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: That, like if a window was broken or the door
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: was kind of open, then they probably could, you.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Know, exactly, no search. But yeah, but it was a
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: sealed up house, just like any other down the street,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: and nothing looked off exactly, so you can't just barge in.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: So the next day would come around and a missing
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: person report would be filed, but not on Tina. Oddly enough,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: it was forty one year old Sprang, who just so
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: happened to be Tina's neighbor and close friend. Now, the
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: last time anyone had heard from Stephanie, she was over
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: at Tina's house. Tina had been looking to move, ideally
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: a little bit closer to work, so Stephanie was there
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: helping her friend begin to process and organize and get
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: all the packagings together for starting to get things in boxes.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: So she was there now. It was also noted that
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: this day, Tina's two kids, Sarah and Cody, never showed
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: up for school.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, what's going on here?
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: The police were just beginning to get some information together.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: They were drawing these two connections between Tina to Stephanie
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: and the missing school right when they received a phone call.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: It was Tina's manager from work again. Okay, well, apparently
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: she wasn't satisfied with the well welfare check the police
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: did on Tina yesterday. Though she was aware they couldn't
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: enter the home without the warr int or anything. She
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: decided she didn't need a warrant to go into the home.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah, yeah, she's just like make check in
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: as kind of a friend, making sure she's okay.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Exactly now, it is unclear how she exactly got into
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: the home. I have some guesses on a later part here,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: but it's kind of irrelevant. Regardless, she let herself into
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: the home and when she did, she got inside and
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: was greeted with a gruesome scene. Oh no, and quickly
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: dialed nine one one.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Seriously, so it's Stephanie's the neighbor, right, correct? Did she
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: do some shit? Or maybe Stephanie's in there too, Okay,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: I'm listening.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Well. On the nine one one call, she informed the
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: police who she was and that she's there regarding Tina,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: and she was the one who called the day before,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: and she told them she went to her house to
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: check and inside she found quote blood everywhere.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Oh jeez.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: The police rushed to the scene, found a blood bath,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: but no people, no one alive, and no one dead.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Holy okay. I was also expecting there to be like
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: three or four bodies in there.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: No no one huh. So by the door, there was
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: a pool of blood and there was drag marks found
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: heading towards the bedroom.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: And then inside the bathroom it looked like a scene
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: right out of a horror movie, as the tub had
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: blood spatters and smears all up the walls and along
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: the tub, and spray marks and flecks across the floor.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Even on the toilet right beside the bathtub had flex
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: of blood all around the bowl.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: That makes my stomach just sink.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: It was immediately clear to investigators what took place in
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: the bathtub dismemberment.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, I don't know why I didn't go there,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: but I had not gone there.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: You did. Anytime there's a murder case and there's a
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: bloody bathtub, happens in the bloody bathtub.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very aware now. Well, I was just, for
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: some reason, was in a happier mind frame than that.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: You're a co host of a true crime podcast.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and a barely body dismemberment is blowing my mind.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: To day sunshine, lollipops and rainbows.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: So yeah. People will sometimes ask how do you cope
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: with having to do these stories? And I'm apparently just
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: an oblivion over here.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you block it out, that's how.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: So yeah, Unfortunately, this was a very real scene, not
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: sunshine and lollipops, and the bathtub was clearly used for dismounting.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, So by the scene left the house, they
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: were not sure if anyone was going to be left
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: alive as a result, but they were able to figure
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: out a few things as far as how it could
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: have played out. First, there was bags of groceries that
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: were found in the kitchen, but they weren't put away,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: still just sitting there in the kitchen.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Like someone had just gone shopping, like someone.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Had just come home from shopping. The receipt showed that
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: the purchase was made approximately around noon, so this meant
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Tina most likely would have come home shortly after doing
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: some shopping and brought the groceries in and before she
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: had a chance to put them away, was interrupted when
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: she had entered her home.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Then the bloodstains by the door also suggested someone was assaulted,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: either as they entered the home or as they were
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: trying to leave.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: They also found the garage door. It wasn't quite working,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: it was left open partially, and even in the closed
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: position it was open enough for a person to crawl
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: under and enter the home if they wanted to, which
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: is partially why part of the reason why, I'm thinking
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: that that could have been how the boss entered the
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: home if necessary. Okay, but she might have had a
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: key to it's kind of a relevant.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Information, or the back door was unlocked or something.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is how they presume the perpetrator would
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: have entered.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Now, in the garage there was also more blood and
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Tina's truck was also missing, which meant whoever was responsible
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: for this must have taken the truck away from the.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Scene with the bodies.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: I'm imagining most likely with the bodies.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Now there was one final thing they found at the
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: crime scene. It was a bag from Walmart. Now, a
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: bag in itself might not seem very conspicuous, but this
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: one had things in it. Tarps. Oh okay, multiple tarps.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Investigators then turned to Walmart for a history of their purchases.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: They didn't have a receipt, but since they didn't have one,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: they thought, let's look it up in their registry and
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: go do that and they can see what's been purchased.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: So they managed to find out which Walmart. It was
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: purchased at what items were purchased, and amongst just the tarps,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: there were several other like Latex gloves for example, being
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: on that list. And they also managed to find CCTV
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: security camera footage.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: Hey, that's what I was wondering.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they found footage of a Caucasian mail approximately
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: in his thirties. He was very casual when he's walking
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: through the till, purchasing the items and just walking out
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: of the store on his merried.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Way, good god, with just like tarbs to go murder people.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: That's he pretty much had a DIY murder scene kit. Yeah,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: that he just purchased for.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: More more and he's just yeah, just another day, just.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Lotty dotty dot not a big deal whatsoever.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: And he left a bag behind at what in Walmart?
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: No?
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: No, sorry, oh at the crime scene of the crime. Okay,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: how do you like really?
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah? Actually, so he really wasn't too concerned about Well,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: clearly he wasn't. I was gonna say cleaning up, but
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: clearly he fucking wasn't at all. There's like a shit
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: show in there.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Well, I just I don't know. I can see both
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: sides of this. Especially considering you just did something so
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: horrific your mind might be cloud and convoluted situations, it
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: might be hard to keep track of everything. You leave
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: something behind easy enough. Also in that sense, you're going
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: to commit something like this and you can't look after
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: a bag yeah of stuff.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to get away with it. Obviously it
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: was planned right to some degree.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: So well, again, that's kind of where I want you
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: guys to figure out on your own. See where you
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: think it lays. If it was planned, if it was premeditated,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: if it wasn't. Where on that.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Spectator, I mean, if someone's buying shit from Walmart like that,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: I feel like, okay, no, I'll just listen and then
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: I'll decide.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, it didn't take long for police to be
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: able to take that footage of a rather rather normal
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: looking dude and actually find a name and identify him.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, his name was Matthew Hoffman and not the
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: infamous BMX legend Matt Hoffman that has like video games
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: out there and stuff. Not that dude.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, because I was like, where I'm a recognizing
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: that name. That's not the same last name that she had, right?
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: No? No, uh, Tina Herman. Okay, yeah, so Hoffman Herman
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: different close but different. So it was yeah, like I said,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Matthew Hoffman. Now, not a lot is known about his
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: early bringing up, his childhood per se, but we are
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: going to touch on him and who he is a
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: little bit here. So we do know that by two
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: thousand and one, at the age of nineteen, Matthew had
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: taken to crime to try and support himself. He was
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: living in Steamboat Springs, Colorado at the time, and he
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: had just broken into a condo complex in hopes of
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: finding some stuff to steal.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, he got what he.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Could, stealing anything that was worth something and was easy
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: to carry out Before he got out of there, he
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: was quick, quiet and left no witnesses, but Matthew was
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: still not quite happy with how it all played out.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: He later said that he couldn't get the thought of
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: any fingerprints that he could possibly have left behind at
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: the scene out of his mind, and that he came
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: up with his own way to make sure that no
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: one would f in them.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, what on earth did he do?
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: What do you think? What do you think he would
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: do to ensure that he erases all his fingerprints? That
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: could possibly be in an entire building.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, burned it down.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: He returned to the scene of the crime.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: That took me way too long to figure out.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: And set the complex on fire.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Do you know where my mind went first? Which is
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: so fucked what? As like he removed his fingerprints, That's
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: where it went first, And I was like, no, that's
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: not logical. What else could it be?
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Actually that that is logical as long as there's not
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: fingerprints already on file. If he removes his, they can't
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: match him.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's pretty like that's affecting your way of living.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Not necessarily you just have like burn scars or something
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: like burn the shit and the tips of your fingers.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it could work.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's actually not about it. That'd be much.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Easier than burning the place to the ground. Yes, it's
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: only affecting you, yeah, versus everyone in that apartment exactly.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: And I mean he did target just the condo he
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: broke into specifically, but however, all sixteen residents met units
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: I guess within this complex were affected.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: The whole thing ended up burning down, and he caused
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: over two million dollars worth of damages.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Holy shit.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So he actually wasn't caught, but he did eventually
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: turn himself over to the police and confess his crimes.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, and he was.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Sentenced to eight years in prison, but only served six
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: before he was released and moved to Howard, Ohio.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, that seems I'm like, I mean, a lot
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: of shit was went down there, which sucks, But like
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: the fact that he was remorseful and turned himself in
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: and then served like a decent amount of time.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I mean there is that there's some consolation
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: prizes there. Yeah. But now in twenty ten, Matthew had
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: just turned thirty and mainly kept to himself. A little
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: bit more on him now. In twenty ten, he first
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: found work as a tree trimmer, but he was rather odd,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: and by the October of twenty ten he had lost
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: his job and was collecting unemployment benefits. A lot of
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: people really found him odd. In fact, neighbors often saw
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: him out in his garden, lying in his hammock under
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: the two trees he had in its property. But they
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: also reported that Matthew resorted to shooting and eating squirrels
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: in his yard. I mean, this could be because he
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: just didn't want to go to the supermarket, or he
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: couldn't afford anything at the store, or who knows what,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: but either way, he was eating squirrels.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Hum At first, it was like, what the fuck's aught
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: about laying your hammock under your trees? That sounds amazing.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: No, it's not just laying in your hammock. It's an
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: accumulation of other things, like laying in the hammock and
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: looking up and shooting a squirrel and then eating inside
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: and cooking it.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something. How did they know for sure that
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: he was cooking it and eating eating it? They disassumed.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: I guess when some one's shooting squirrels and taking him inside.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Maybe he didn't like squirrels and he just wanted them dead.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Maybe, but who knows.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Most likely not just playing Devil's ad Forhgate, fair enough,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: I do that on a regular basis, so it's refreshing
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: for you to play that part.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: So something else did happen in October of that year
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: that may have tipped the scales from Matthew, if you
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: want to put it that way, And it was at
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: his girlfriend had left him. Now we're not exactly sure why,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: but there is a police report out there reportedly that
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: she claimed Matthew was becoming violent and choked her during
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: a domestic incident.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: So this left Matthew jobless, collecting benefits and needing squirrels
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: all in isolation.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Huh. I mean that sounds pretty rough. I'm not gonna lie.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So now this brings us to November fifteenth, twenty ten,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: five days after Tina had first failed to show up
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: for her scheduled workshift. The police remember that they had
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: actually met Matthew recently on the eleventh fact, when they
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: were investigating Tina's home. He had actually pulled up in
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: his vehicle outside the home.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: Really yep, okay.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: So as he drove up, deputies noticed him immediately and
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: they asked why he was visiting and what looked like
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: a murder scene basically, and Matthew was rather quick in
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: his feet. He told the officers right then and there
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: that he was there to pick up his girlfriend from
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: work just down the street. Matthew wasn't a suspect, but
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: the officers did question him and press him.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Asked whose girlfriend was and where she worked, and Matthew
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: was quick again. He told the officers that she worked
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: at a nearby inn, and that he said that he
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: wasn't sure about her last name because they only recently
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: just started dating, pretty new to each other still, but
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: he could tell them her first name though, and her
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: first name was Sarah.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: So that's so he's referring to the neighbor. Was that
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: the neighbor's name.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Sorry, her neighbor was Stephanie.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Oh shit, sorry, I'm getting like h's and s's.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: And Sarah was. However, the daughter's name. Oh yeah, I
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: wasn't gonna say anything, but you kind of started linking it.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I'll give you that it was the daughter again.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Thirteen Okay, okay, yeah.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: This is just getting a little bit more interesting here.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: So, believing his story, the officers let him go, which
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I mean at that time, they have no suspicion of him.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: He's just some dude driving up by a crime scene.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I mean obviously, like any nosy neighbor would probably be
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: doing the same thing. You watch any movie Hollywood, they
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: have like the whole neighborhood standing on the street staring
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: and gawking, right.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: And if anything, it's almost kind of like, oh, this
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: guy doesn't realize what happened here. But then someone like me,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: I'm like, that guy's freaking guilty. He's showing up to
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: the crime the day after it happened.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: But you have hindsight. That's that's a big part of exactly right.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so they did.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Know something serious was going on. When they drew these
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: lines between it, they realized he was at the scene.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: There.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: He's now the one scene on CCTV footage purchasing the
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: items found in the home. They also linked the vehicle
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: they saw when he pulled up this crime scene to
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the one parked outside of Walmart when the purchase were made.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: So it is confirmed. Okay, so they got a warrant
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: to search his home. When they got there, they were
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: ready and they were prepared to find anything. When they
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: entered the home, they burst in and they found something
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: they weren't expecting.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, what on earth would they not be expecting? I
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: feel like they'd almost be expecting anything.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you, would you expect this?
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Everyone is alive.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: When they burst open the door, they found leaves.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: What do you mean? Just like a shit ton of
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: leaves everywhere.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: There were bags of leaves, loose leaves spread all over
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: the floor like two feet deep, through throughout the house.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I definitely would not have been expecting that. Yeah,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: there's no way.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: It was leaves just everywhere, a shit ton of leaves.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: It's kind of nice though, No, I mean it was
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: the end of autumn, so I mean leaves were in abundance,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: which completely makes sense. But why they're scattered in the home.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Like raking them up and bringing them in their house
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: for some decor.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: It's beyond decor, but he was. He was raking them
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: up and bringing them into his home.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Really Okay.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: So needless to say, though, it was a tactical nightmare
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: for police trying to this. Oh gosh, they didn't know
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: what was in those piles of leaves. Oh man, there
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: could have been drug paraphernalia, say needles, for example. They
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: were afraid that Matthew would actually set traps within the
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: leaves or potentially the bodies.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Of the victims.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, laying in these.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Where I had gone. Okay, that's terrifying.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So they were ready for anything, but they were
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: not ready for that.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: No, No, you would not be. Wow. Okay.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: So when they entered the home, Matthew was sleeping on
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: his couch in the living room, so they burst in
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: they raid and they take him, and he doesn't really
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: say anything. He just watches the police slowly make their
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: way through his home and try and process what the
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: fuck is going on in this house. Not even when
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: they finally noticed a cabinet pushed up against a door
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: leading to the basement, did he say a word.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, they.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Noticed this cabinet, they moved it aside and it was
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: blocking the access, and they opened the door and they
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: slowly made their way into the basement.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: I like, still some serious hope that these this family's alive.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Well, they did find thirteen year old Sarah Maynard downstairs
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: in the basement, tied up to a bed made of leaves,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: with her hands completely bound in a plastic bag around
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: her waist, almost like it was a diaper. Whoa Sarah
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: when she saw the police went into absolute shock. She
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: began panicking and rambling and telling the police that she
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: was late for school and she had to get to school.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Huh, well, she's just terrified of her fucking mind.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: She also told police that Matthew had killed her dog
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: and she was very worried about her dog, which is
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: a portion I have so far left out.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: But he did oh Okay, I hate him. I mean
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: he already did.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: He later admitted to killing the dog because it wouldn't
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: stop barking.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, because you're an asshole. Yeah, that's why I
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: didn't stop barking.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay. Oh so Sarah, though, did have suspicions of that,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: she didn't have any idea of what happened to her mother, brother,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: or Stephanie. According to Sarah, Matthew had explained that he
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: was waiting for ransom money to come in from her parents,
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: and that he was going to return her home. He'd
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: even promise that she'd be home by Christmas.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Huh okay, so like she like he was basically like
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: abusing her down there.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: We'll get into that a little bit, but.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, yes wow.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Matthew, however, wasn't quite as forthcoming to the police when
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: they questioned Sarah. She told him everything, of course, right,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: but Matthew was lips tight.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: This guy is so interesting, how I just like im
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: picturing this person that just is not affected by anything,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: and just like going through this the motions and the
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: steps and just like like a straight line. And maybe
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: maybe it's very odd.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Things might change in that opinion. Here this is a
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: there's a little bit of different insight to this case,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: which is why again I want you to kind of
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: draw your opinion on where and the spectrum it lies. Okay,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: So he didn't say a word during any of the interviews.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Only once he pounded his chest with his fists and
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: signaled as something breaking with his hands. He didn't even
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: answer when the police asked him if that meant that
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: his heart was broken. Just silence. But everything did change.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: A few days later, his tune changed and he began
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: to talk. Matthew went into another interview and asked if
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: the camera was on, and the officers told him that
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: it wasn't. Yeah, sure right, No, of course we're not
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: recording here in this interrogation room. So he did believe
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: them and he started talking.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: That's lying, though, I feel like you have to I
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: mean maybe there was a few years ago, but like
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: you have to state if something is recording like that.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Do you not no, because I mean you're still talking
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: to police, which is like witness. I don't think so.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'd have to look into it.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: I feel like you would have to be like full disclosure,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: but I don't know.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know it's not like this is a you're
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: calling into a phone line or something. This call may
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: be recorded for a company policies.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Sure tell us, and it's recorded like this is obviously
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: recorded by YEA.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: So he started talking, and he said that he had
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: the same nightmare for a second time and he needed
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: to talk about it. He said that in his dream,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: he'd been in a food processing plant and when he'd
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: opened the bag in front of him, it was filled
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: with human body parts. He took that to mean that
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: he had to come clean, so he decided to tell
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: the police what he'd done. He did, however, have one condition.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: He would tell the police where to find the bodies
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: if they agreed to allow him to escape.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Oh no, but this, I'm okay, this isn't good.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Well, this wasn't going to be a real escape though.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Well yeah, his plan was only a cover up of
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: a falsified escape. Here. He was going to pretend to
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: run away so that the police could shoot and kill him.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: That's what he wanted, That's what he want.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: He's like, just just let me run away and then
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: you can be like, oh no, he's getting away, shoot
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: him and then you can kill me.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Well, so that's almost kind of like a suicide planet.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: It is only after that his lawyer would release the
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: information on where the bodies would be found. That's what
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: he wanted.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: The police, of course didn't agree. They're not going to
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: just kill him at his wish, right, Yeah, and Matthew
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: stopped talking again.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Frag but the lawyer knows where the bodies are.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know if the lawyer does yet or what.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: He was going to tell him.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, but it would be only two days later that
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: he changed his mind all over again. Matthew told investigators
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: where to find the bodies under the condition that the
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: prosecution wouldn't press for the death penalty.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Okay. I just have like this terrible thought though, that
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: like he was using food grinder of sorts without people knowing.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: And now what's been going on for those past four
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: days or whatever.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: There's no cannibalism.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, No, you're good, Okay, Okay, Well I guess I
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: mean I'm not doing the case. I'm the only one that.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Exactly that'd be you. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I do find
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: this super interesting though, because Matthew a started with I
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: will tell you where the bodies are if you kill me. Basically, Oh,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: and now he's like, I'll tell you where the bodies
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: are if you don't kill me.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: That's very interesting. He's a lot going on in his head.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: He has a lot going on in his head.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: So he would then write a four page confession detailing
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: his crimes, but he left out one very important part.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: According to Matthew, he'd only ever been nice to Sarah.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: He apparently had gave her a copy of Treasure Island.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: They'd watch movies together, he'd cook burgers for her, and
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: he'd even fall asleep with her in his arms. His
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: exact words are quote, I would not have hurt her.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: I could not hurt her. I planned on giving her
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: more and more freedom until she ran away.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Sarah, however, told a very different story. According to her,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: in the four days that Matthew had had tied her
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: up in the basement, he'd repeatedly sexually assaulted her.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Holy shit.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: This claim was backed up by the physical evidence and
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: evaluation on Sarah the abuse on her body.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: So a charge of rape was added to nine other
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: accounts that Matthew was facing.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: What the actual hell, Oh my gosh, I'm like, is
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: he just like delusional? And like, what's happening in his world?
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Or is he just stretching the truth to make himself
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: seem better and not like a complete ass or more
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: than an ass and disgusting monster.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Well, luckily, Matthew, like I said, did write a four
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: page confession.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, yes he did, so we do.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Have accounts for his side of the story, and by
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: all accounts, it sounds like this is the truth. I'm
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: not trying to sit here and say, oh, it's just
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: his side of the story. No, I think this is
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: is most likely how it played out by the sounds
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: So, after Matthew was left jobless and single, he went
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: back to his old ways.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Theft right.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: According to Matthew, he picked a house at random. That
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: one is up for debate. He found one in the
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: neighborhood that didn't have any other houses too close. In fact,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: this one was kind of on a block on its own,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: with kind of forested area around it, so he waited.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: He camped in the surrounding bushes near the home, sleeping
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: only in his sleeping bag to try and fight off
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: the cold, and finally, after a time period that isn't
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: quite clear, assumed a few days I've heard three days,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: but again not confirmed, but it was a few days
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: before he made his move. Matthew approached the home now
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: that it seemed to be empty. He tried the front door,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: but it was locked, and from there he went around
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: to the back and found the partially open garage door,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: and he slid inside. All he had to do now
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: was look for anything worth stealing, grab it, and be
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: on his way. He was looking for the same things
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: as he did back in two thousand and one. He
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: wanted something that was light, easy to carry, like money
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: or jewelry, but he had a hard time finding anything
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: worthwhile in this house. He searched the home for about
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: an hour when suddenly he heard the sound of a
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: car pulling up into the driveway.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Oh man, So.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: He had a choice to make. He could either sneak
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: out or he could hide. He knew that if he
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: tried to sneak out, he probably was going to get caught,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: so he chose to hide. He ran into a bedroom,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: closed the door and waited. Ideally, whoever it was would
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: come back and pick something up before heading out again.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: So he sat silently waiting, But then the bedroom door
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: started to open. In walked Tina and the whole situated
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: situation escalated incredibly quickly. Matthew came prepared to defend himself
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: or to attack whichever situation he found himself in. He
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: had a hunting knife and a sap, which a sap
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: is a small little leather pouch filled with like metal bearings,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: so think like a leather coin pouch. Basically, it was
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: like hit and okay, bludgeoning. Yeah, So he ordered Tina
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: to lie in the bed, bearing both the weapons and
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: fearing for her life. Tina listened. So as Tina laid
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: face down the bed, Matthew hit her across the back
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: of the head with the sap. His intent was to
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: knock her out, but all he ended up doing was
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: injuring her. Realizing that she was still conscious, Matthew hit
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Tina across the head again, but then he heard the
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: bedroom door swing open behind him. Oh no, He turned
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: around a look, and this time he saw forty one
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: year old Stephanie Sprang, Tina's neighbor and best friend. Okay,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: the pair of them locked eyes as Matthew stood over Tina,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: who was still conscious and laying in the bed. Stephanie
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: panicked and ran, but Matthew didn't want either of the
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: women to escape or call for help, so with his
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: knife in the other hand, he quickly stabbed Tina in
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: the back twice. Oh geez, before he took off after
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Stephanie through the house.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Ohly shit.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: He managed to catch up to her before she got
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: to the front door, and he stabbed her twice in
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: the chest. He then ran back to the first bedroom,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: stabbed Tina another couple of times, and realized they were
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: both dead.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm not too sure where it is. I
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: avoided researching this part because I love dogs, but somewhere
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: and around here he would have went after the dog
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: with a knife as well.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: The dog was barking at this guy. Yes, Okay, first
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: of all, so I'm assuming he was like camped out,
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: kind of like figure out their schedules, right, So he
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: was probably really thinking like no one was going to
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: be home at that time.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: That's what he was aiming for. Definitely that.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, this whole thing is freaking terrifying. But it is
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: so unbelievably terrifying to think that someone is just like
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: camping out behind your house, like just watching you.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know, like that just makes me feel
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: like shit.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: Gross.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, like, go check your backyards, but also don't
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: because it's scary.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Go do it, but don't lock your doors.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Wow.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, according to Matthew, killing anyone was never part
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: of the plan, and the fact that he now just
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: killed two women put him into a daze. He said,
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: he kept walking around the house trying to figure out
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: what to do, and then he came out with an idea.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: He took their bodies to the bathroom placed them in
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: the tub.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: He collected bins from around the house and started dismembering
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: the bodies into pieces.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: I I am sorry, but that's really fucked up.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: He put their body parts into a bag and started
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: loading them into Tina's truck, which was now in the garage.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: But during one of these trips, he heard the front
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: door to the house open up the sun. He was
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: not faced with two women this time, but Tina's two.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Children, both kids.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: They had both just come home from school and walked
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: in the front door.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: And saw Matthew and blood.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Blood. Sarah bolted and managed to make it to her room,
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: but Cody wasn't so lucky. Matthew swung his knife and
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: stabbed Cody in the chest, killing him almost right away,
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: but Matthew didn't stick around to check and see how
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: long he was alive for he was worried that Sarah
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: went to a room and was calling the police with
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: a phone in there, so he came in, bursting and
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: found her there. She wasn't calling for help, and Matthew
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: later said that he saw her he couldn't kill her. Instead,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: he ripped the cord from an electrical fan and tried
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: to tie tie Sarah up. He then would drag her
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: to the kitchen while he got back to work taking
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: out the rest of the bins, dismembering his victims, including
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: eleven year old Cody.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Oh brutal. Why could he not kill Sarah though? Do
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: we talk about that later or just like he just.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: All he said is that he couldn't.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: He couldn't. Huh.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Matthew then came back and bundled Sarah up into the truck,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: and Sarah had no idea that she was now within
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: a vehicle that contained her completely dismembered family and neighbor
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: shoved inside of bins. All she did know was a
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: man was taking her somewhere and there was nothing she
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: could do about it.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a lot, it is this is a lot.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: This is very very disturb and I already have my
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: answer in my head.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: So Matthew ended up taking her to his home, led
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: her to the basement, tied her up to the bed
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: before getting back to his work. He knew he had
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: to get rid of the bodies. He thought about driving
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: his truck to the lake and swimming it and swimming
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: ashore from there. So driving it right into the water,
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: letting it set swing your shore. Yeah, but it was
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: November and he was afraid that he wouldn't be able
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: to swim because of the cold. So he thought a
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: bit more and he figured out a place that he
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: thought would be perfect. He knew a sixty foot tree
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: in Cocosing Wildlife Area, and he knew this tree just
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: so happened to be hollow. So he hauled bags body
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: parts over several different trips and used his climbing equipment
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: from previous jobs that he had as a tree turmer
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: to haul him up the tree and dump them inside
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: the tree. He did this using multiple different vehicles to
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: attempt to cover his tracks. He used his own truck, Tina's,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: he used Stephanie's jeep. He even took his bike once
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: and walked back and forth twice.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Holy frig Okay, so he's like really thinking this part
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: through now, I guess he is.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: So with the bodies hidden, Matthew again reverted back to
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: his old ways. The next evening, he went back to
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: Tina's house ready to burn it to the ground. Oh okay,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: but that's when he discovered the police had already found
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: the scene.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: As he was pulling, he wasn't going to be able
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: to yep.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: So when he had talked to police, he was there
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: to burn the house down.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Okay, So he realized that he left shit there that
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: needed to be destroyed. Yeah, the bag or why did
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: he have that bag?
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: He would have in the process of dismembering the bodies
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: gone to Walmart to get some supplies.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: Holy shit. So he literally went to Walmart after yes,
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: and was just like calm as a cucumber. Yes, that's disturbing, Yes,
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: really disturbing.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Yes. So January of twenty eleven, Matthew would have his trial.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: He pled guilty to all ten charges, three accounts of kidnapping, kidnapping,
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: for abducting the three victims, three accounts of abuse of
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: a corpse, for dismembering the bodies of victims and scattering
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: the remains, and one account of sexual assault regarding Sarah.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: of parole.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Right, and that's.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: When the press had dubbed the leaf killer the leaf killer.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: He was the leaf killer and he will remain in
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: prison till he dies. Okay, So one final little note here.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Sarah did move in with her father, Larry, who said
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: that she went back to school and worked very closely
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: with therapists to deal with this tragedy.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that is some trauma.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Larry also said that regarding Sarah, quote, she is strong
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: and has gotten through this with her faith in God
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: and the love of her family.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Okay, that's good. That, oh that she's
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: like doing well. But gosh, just what she's having to
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: deal with.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: I imagine that she might be doing well, but I don't
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: think I think this is going to affect her for.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, of course, for her entire life.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, But the conversation I do want to have
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: is do you think he's just a cold blooded murderer?
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's something that just got out of
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: hand an accident and he just covered his tracks. What
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: what do you think? You said? You have your answer?
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, well I do. Okay, So I think
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: that he's a terrible person. I think that he's a
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: criminal for sure, Like he definitely is a criminal. But
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: I do I don't know, because it seems so weird
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: to me, Okay, Like I'm still processing. It seems very
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: weird to me that he saved or he didn't do
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: this to Sarah, but then he did it to the
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: other three. So could he not have easily just have
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: not killed all of them? You know? So that's why
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of like, well, did he intend to murder someone?
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Like he came prepared with some series weapons and stuff.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: He had a hunting knife in his hand. Yeah, right,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: And when he did have Tina, she was on the
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: bed and he just began assaulting her with that SAP
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: the weapon. Right, if he's going to ensure this doesn't
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: happen or you know, doesn't no one squeals or something,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: He's not gonna be assaulting her. He's gonna tire up
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: make sure she can't see shit.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: Well, because even as you were kind of presenting the story.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: I was like, there's opportunities for him to like get away, Yes,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: in that in that scenario there.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: In an hour in someone's home. That's a long time.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: And you did say that he potentially was abusive to
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: his girlfriend.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Potentially, yes, So.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, maybe he was going to
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: be escalating to be doing murders and this is this
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: is the time the one maybe.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: I I mean, clearly there's definitely some of my undiagnosed
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: mental disorders or something going on there, because he's is
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: not quite there now. There there was reports after searching
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: his home with the search warrent and everything, police did
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: find his freezer which apparently contained squirrels and popsicles. Wow,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: so that was his diet apparently. And there is also
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: a lot of allegations around this case regarding him being
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: very what's the best way to say, sexualizing trees.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, so that.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: The leaves, for example, in his home, the tree that
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: he hid the remains in apparently was a tree that
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: he was very fond of. I mean, he climbed it often,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: most likely, especially if he knew all the way up
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: and it was hollow in there in the specific tree.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: So there is allegations of sexualizing trees.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Interesting, I never heard of that.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: I mean to each the row, and I'm not going
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: to knock someone for something like that, right, but yeah,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: I will knock you if you go ahead and like
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: start murdering people.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Not illegal to sexualize trees, yeah, I mean lots of
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: people like wood. Right, Holy shit, you went there. Oh
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: my gosh. But yeah, to say he's like a cold
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: blooded murder my gosh.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: I mean he is definitely a cold blooded murderer for sure, yes,
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: But is he intentionally a cold blooded murderer? Is the question?
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Man? Okay, okay, I'm going to say.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: No, no, he's not.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I'm going with I think for all,
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: But that just destroys me to say that.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: So then here's my question that I want to beg
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: you with this one. What was he going to do
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: with Sarah?
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: I know that's like there's just so, but like you said,
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: so he has some mental health stuff that he's dealing with.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Maybe he just like saw her and was just like
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: had some sort of like connection, was like, oh my gosh,
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: like this this this girl's like an angel or whatever,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: like I need to save her.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: He sexually abused her. Oh fuck, he was charged with
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: with sexual abuse.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I don't know. Okay, no this, Oh okay,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: you are asking.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Me, I'm asking you impossible questions.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: Possible questions. This guy is literally like the biggest douce
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: crew ever. Like he's discussing he's a nasty motherfucker.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Because I do think he's not intentionally a cold blooded killer,
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: but I think he got way in over his head
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: and he's just going to roll with those punches, which
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: turns him into one after the fact.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: Well, the whole Sarah thing, Well, this would be easier
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: to answer kind of if he had murdered her as well.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: But the fact that he kept her is just continuing
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: the abuse.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Is it is horrible because put it this way, if
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: he keeps her in his basement, there's one of two
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: things that's going to happen here. Either he continues to
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: keep her and continues to abuse her, or he's going
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: to continue to abuse her and eventually she will die
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: as a result. Yeah, those are the two options.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: But then didn't he say that she was going to
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: let her go at some point? Well that's what he said,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: he claimed.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, I'm not not not to throw the idea
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: out the window that she could escape, that's definitely a possibility.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: But before that happens, those are the only two things
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: that are going to occur. Is either she's going to
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: continue being abused or continue being abused until he kills
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: her or she dies as a result. Yeah, so he
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: is letting this happen, letting this continuing continue to happen,
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: knowingly that there makes him a cold blooded criminal murderer
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: in my opinion.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like he I don't think if he didn't get caught,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: I don't think Sarah would have gotten out of that
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: situation alive. Right, So then, how remorseful was he for
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: murdering the other three and when he was literally going
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: to be doing that to Sarah. Yeah, like he did
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: turn into a cold blooded murderer.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think with the other three, Yeah, you can
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: make the argument of he panicked, he snapped, and he
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: didn't know what to do, and he dismembered and hit them,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: and sure, okay, not that it's okay to do that,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: it's still fucking horrific.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: He went next level.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, However, the whole idea of snapping or not knowing
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: or going into a haze as he put it. Sure,
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: you can make that argument for three. You can no
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: longer make that argument for Sarah because now you have
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: four days of sitting on this yeah and continuing Yeah,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: that's that's the part that makes it worse.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'm glad that he is in jail
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: and that he's going to be in there for the
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: rest of his life, because I mean he's already I've
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: been in and out of jail previously to this, right,
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: and now his crime has just like escalated to the nines.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: So that is kind of where he needs to be.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: So what happens if he got away with us, if
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: he did have Sarah still, do you think he would
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: have done it again to someone else? Yep, I think
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: he would have. Yeah, if he got to burn the
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: house down, then they never did find the Walmart bag
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: and never got to put anything together, I think he
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: would have done it.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Again, Oh yeah, because I think that this was just
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: like almost I don't want to say natural, but like
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: a progression of his like his criminal.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: Activity, because that's what he did. He broke into a
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: place looking for things, left, burned it down. He tried
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: to do the exact same thing here, only this time
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: the people came home, and he would have killed them,
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: taken one of them and gotten away with it, and
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: he would have liked it, and he would have done
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: it again.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it would have just become like almost a
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: new fetish or obsession for him.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Yep, which is where I think it's just escalating. It's escalating.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: He's letting it escalate. He's enjoying the escalation. He's he's
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: a cold blooded killer in my opinion. Yeah, we just
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: so happened to be just at the start of it
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: that he was caught.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Brutal. Wow, that is That is a brutal case
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: and one that I have never heard.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I've been researching that one for a few
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: weeks now.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: It kind of seems like it was a dozy it research.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: And it was very difficult to try and tell the
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: story not as Matthew's story, which a lot of articles
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: do talk about that out there, and I mean there's
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of information on Matthew, so it's kind
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: of hard not for it to be his story. But yeah,
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: I just want to highlight his victims more so Cody, Sarah, Tina,
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: and Stephanie. Yeah. Fuck Matthew.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally fuck him for sure.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you guys for being here, thank you for
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: sticking through this whole episode. And yeah, hopefully there's not
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: someone camped out your backyard for the next three days.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Why that's creepy, just bugging you, but we do appreciate you.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: If you want to check out our social media links,
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: they're all in the description of this podcast below. We
• 55:30
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• 55:33
  Speaker 1: go ahead and give us a rating that means a
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: lot you really appreciate. Yeah, So until next time
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: Though, stay wicked.