Latest / Future Christian / Does the Church Really Want the Truth? | Matthew Townsend

Transcript

Does the Church Really Want the Truth? | Matthew Townsend · Future Christian

• 0:05
  Martha Tatarnic: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and
• 0:11
  Martha Tatarnic: the future of the church.
• 0:17
  Loren: Today, Martha welcomes Matthew Townsend to the show. Matthew served as editor of the
• 0:23
  Loren: Anglican Journal, at the time a journalistic publication of the Anglican Church of Canada,
• 0:29
  Loren: from 2019 to 2021. Mistreatment of confidential sources prompted Matthew to leave his position,
• 0:35
  Loren: the denomination, and ecclesial work. Originally from Florida, Matthew and his family live in
• 0:41
  Loren: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, and worship at St. Vladimir Orthodox Church. OCA in Halifax. A
• 0:48
  Loren: reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the
• 0:54
  Loren: podcast, leave a review, and share Future Christian with a friend. You can connect
• 1:00
  Loren: with Lauren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. You can shoot us an email
• 1:06
  Loren: at Lauren at ResonateMediaPro dot com with comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes.
• 1:12
  Loren: We appreciate your support in making this podcast possible.
• 1:19
  Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your host for today's episode, Martha Tatarnic
• 1:23
  Martha Tatarnic: and I'm really happy to be joined by Matthew Townsend today. Welcome Matt. It's
• 1:28
  Martha Tatarnic: great to have you on Future Christian Podcast.
• 1:33
  Matthew Townsend: It's good to be here. Thank you.
• 1:35
  Martha Tatarnic: All right. So we go back a ways. We can talk about that momentarily,
• 1:40
  Martha Tatarnic: but our podcast has lots of people who listen who wouldn't necessarily know who
• 1:46
  Martha Tatarnic: you are. So maybe you can just introduce yourself to our future Christian community,
• 1:51
  Martha Tatarnic: share a little bit about your faith journey, what that has looked like in
• 1:57
  Martha Tatarnic: the past and what it looks like now.
• 2:03
  Matthew Townsend: Sure. So as as you mentioned, we've known each other for a while. I
• 2:08
  Matthew Townsend: used to be the editor of the Anglican Journal in the Anglican Church of
• 2:14
  Matthew Townsend: Canada from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty one. And and that was sort of
• 2:20
  Matthew Townsend: the end of my Anglican faith journey in ways. I I became a Christian
• 2:26
  Matthew Townsend: as an adult at twenty-four. I had been exploring for a few years before
• 2:32
  Matthew Townsend: that, but had sort of stumbled into Trinity College at the University of Toronto.
• 2:38
  Matthew Townsend: found Coral Evans song and had a wonderful one had a wonderful experience with
• 2:44
  Matthew Townsend: the chaplain there and was baptized that year. So I sort of entered the
• 2:50
  Matthew Townsend: church as a as an adult student and and then kind of worked my
• 2:56
  Matthew Townsend: way through the church both worshiping and and and also eventually entering the employee
• 3:02
  Matthew Townsend: of the church in a few different roles. and then then was at the
• 3:08
  Matthew Townsend: Anglican Journal, left after a very difficult incident at the journal when confidential sources
• 3:14
  Matthew Townsend: in my view were betrayed by the church. and and after a while stopped
• 3:20
  Matthew Townsend: attending Anglican churches. So have become Orthodox since. So so now my family and
• 3:26
  Matthew Townsend: I are worshipping at an Orthodox church in America parish in Halifax.
• 3:32
  Martha Tatarnic: Okay, so yeah, just a few pieces I'd like to pick up on. I
• 3:38
  Martha Tatarnic: mean, we're a lot of our conversation today is going to get into the
• 3:44
  Martha Tatarnic: Anglican Journal and the place of journalism in the Anglican Church of Canada. I
• 3:50
  Martha Tatarnic: think more broadly, what the role of journalism can be for the Christian institution
• 3:57
  Martha Tatarnic: in general. We don't wanna just limit the conversation to being an Anglican one,
• 4:03
  Martha Tatarnic: but yeah, let's just circle back to a few things that you said. So
• 4:09
  Martha Tatarnic: so your entry into the Christian faith was through the Anglican church.
• 4:16
  Matthew Townsend: That's right.
• 4:17
  Martha Tatarnic: Okay. But you grew up in the U.
• 4:20
  Matthew Townsend: I grew up in Florida. Okay so I was around Southern Baptists as a
• 4:24
  Matthew Townsend: child, and and this was in the interior of Florida, so it was it
• 4:28
  Matthew Townsend: was very Southern. And it just did not resonate with me. I sort of
• 4:33
  Matthew Townsend: declared atheism by the age of seven or eight. I was a really cynical
• 4:37
  Matthew Townsend: child. And and found science and I was sort of obsessed with Star Trek.
• 4:41
  Matthew Townsend: So Star Trek was really my religion.
• 4:46
  Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
• 4:47
  Matthew Townsend: And yeah, it I I was sick for about a year when I was
• 4:51
  Matthew Townsend: sixteen and and after that kind of began exploring. I went to some Catholic
• 4:56
  Matthew Townsend: services, but not as a believer, but just as someone who was curious. So
• 5:00
  Matthew Townsend: I I sort of wandered around for a bit. But it was really, I
• 5:05
  Matthew Townsend: mean, it was the even song that really brought me into Anglicanism. and I
• 5:09
  Matthew Townsend: was sort of ready at that point in my life. I as I've told
• 5:14
  Matthew Townsend: people before, I joined the church when I realized that everything I had ever
• 5:18
  Matthew Townsend: planned had failed. That my my attempts
• 5:23
  Martha Tatarnic: Hmm. Interesting.
• 5:26
  Matthew Townsend: to be God were not in fact successful.
• 5:30
  Martha Tatarnic: Go figure.
• 5:31
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah, yeah. No, I've I've said before that I think I was more of
• 5:34
  Matthew Townsend: an autotheist than an atheist. Like I b I believed that I could just
• 5:37
  Matthew Townsend: c I was God. I could control everything. If
• 5:41
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm.
• 5:42
  Matthew Townsend: I just planned, you know, well enough, if I was smart enough, I could
• 5:46
  Matthew Townsend: get what I needed and that's it turns out that's not true.
• 5:51
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's amazing how how much we can be led to believe
• 5:55
  Martha Tatarnic: it's true though. Exactly right.
• 5:59
  Matthew Townsend: well society wants us to it's everything is sort of self help, right? Self
• 6:02
  Matthew Townsend: made.
• 6:05
  Martha Tatarnic: Everything you need is inside of yourself. Yeah. Maybe
• 6:08
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah.
• 6:10
  Martha Tatarnic: not. Yeah, maybe the Wizard of Oz was wrong. okay, so you were not
• 6:15
  Martha Tatarnic: studying theology when you were at Trinity College. You were like what what's your
• 6:20
  Martha Tatarnic: education background?
• 6:26
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah, so I had already completed a a bachelor's in journalism in Florida. Okay.
• 6:30
  Matthew Townsend: and I'd come up to Canada, and I actually had enrolled in astronomy and
• 6:35
  Matthew Townsend: physics at U of T for a second bachelor's, which was an astoundingly stupid
• 6:40
  Matthew Townsend: idea, because I turns out I'm not that good at math. I'm fine at
• 6:45
  Matthew Townsend: it, but I'm not I'm not astrophysics good at math. And and it wasn't
• 6:50
  Matthew Townsend: really a passion. And in fact, I my my first time at Trinity College
• 6:55
  Matthew Townsend: Chapel, I had come in for Evensong, and I'd never heard it in person
• 7:00
  Matthew Townsend: before. I'd heard it on BBC radio streaming a good number of times and
• 7:05
  Matthew Townsend: was interested. But I was sitting in the pew before anything started. I was
• 7:10
  Matthew Townsend: the only person in the chapel and and I had calculus homework spread out
• 7:15
  Matthew Townsend: and on the pew. And the chaplain at the time who was the Reverend
• 7:20
  Matthew Townsend: Dana Fisher, she came up and I had not met her yet, and she
• 7:24
  Matthew Townsend: looked down at this pew just full of like equations and papers and with
• 7:29
  Matthew Townsend: this befuddled look and I very sheepishly said, I I hope it's okay for
• 7:34
  Matthew Townsend: me to to do my my calculus in church. And she said, Honey, God
• 7:39
  Matthew Townsend: invented calculus. And so that was that was my sort of first real experience
• 7:44
  Matthew Townsend: with an Anglican, which was hilarious and really welcoming. And and so I gradually
• 7:49
  Matthew Townsend: got involved with the chapel and then was baptized that that Easter. But I
• 7:54
  Matthew Townsend: was I was an undergraduate student who was a bit older than the others.
• 7:59
  Matthew Townsend: a a fish out of water or redneck at Trinity College, which for for
• 8:04
  Matthew Townsend: people who are not listening in Canada or unfamiliar, Trinity is is just think
• 8:09
  Matthew Townsend: Hogwarts.
• 8:14
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, definitely.
• 8:16
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah, you wear academic robes for dinner. I I don't know if they do
• 8:19
  Matthew Townsend: that still or not, but
• 8:23
  Martha Tatarnic: I don't know. I mean I'm a graduate of Trinity College, but it was
• 8:28
  Martha Tatarnic: a long time ago, so I I think they still wear robes. Yeah. I
• 8:33
  Martha Tatarnic: don't know. Yeah. So okay, so your background was in journalism, you got into
• 8:38
  Martha Tatarnic: the Anglican church, we're gonna talk about the Anglican journal. W you're worshiping in
• 8:43
  Martha Tatarnic: an Orthodox church now. Where where are you working now?
• 8:48
  Matthew Townsend: where I'm working, I fix appliances. so I'm working with my hands and I'm
• 8:53
  Matthew Townsend: working all over the place, in people's homes and businesses. I I spent several
• 8:58
  Matthew Townsend: years at home with my daughter looking after her. She was a b Winifred
• 9:03
  Matthew Townsend: was born in 2021, so very much a COVID baby. and daycare was very
• 9:09
  Matthew Townsend: unavailable and we weren't keen on the idea given the the sort of world
• 9:14
  Matthew Townsend: circumstances. And so I stayed at home. And I had already left, I left
• 9:19
  Matthew Townsend: my job at the Anglican Journal when she was two months old. So it
• 9:24
  Matthew Townsend: was sort of natural for me to enter into that position of staying at
• 9:30
  Matthew Townsend: home and parenting. So I did that with her through pre-primary, and a a
• 9:35
  Matthew Townsend: friend of mine towards towards the end of of of my time staying at
• 9:40
  Matthew Townsend: home had suggested that perhaps that. might want to apprentice and learn how to
• 9:46
  Matthew Townsend: fix things. And I've always been kind of technical. And and given that my
• 9:51
  Matthew Townsend: my background is in journalism, I've also done IT and programming, and every executive
• 9:56
  Matthew Townsend: I know, including those in my own family, are very keen to replace that
• 10:01
  Matthew Townsend: kind of labor with chat GPT. I thought, you know, maybe cleaning out washing
• 10:07
  Matthew Townsend: machine pumps would be more effective at raising money. So I'm doing that. I'm
• 10:12
  Matthew Townsend: also running a publication in Dartmouth, in Nova Scotia, which was all volunteer, but
• 10:17
  Matthew Townsend: we've received the the local journalism initiative grant from the Canadian government and and
• 10:23
  Matthew Townsend: the Canadian Association of Journalists. so we do have paid writers who are are
• 10:28
  Matthew Townsend: now working as freelancers for us. we're hyperlocal, so everything we do is is
• 10:33
  Matthew Townsend: about Dartmouth. It can relate to larger stories and and you know worldly matters
• 10:38
  Matthew Townsend: outside of Dartmouth, but it needs to be anchored in some way. Started that
• 10:44
  Matthew Townsend: about a year and a half ago. Okay. And so I'm I'm paying people,
• 10:49
  Matthew Townsend: but I'm not being paid. So it's it's it's a pretty standard journalism arrangement.
• 10:54
  Matthew Townsend: Well, you know, we're trying to grow it and so it's it's a startup
• 11:00
  Matthew Townsend: in its way. But we've seen we just lost our news radio station here
• 11:05
  Matthew Townsend: in Halifax, part of Rogers layoffs last week, I wanna say. it was quite
• 11:10
  Matthew Townsend: recent. The the the Metro Daily, the Chronicle Herald, has shrunk dramatically over the
• 11:15
  Matthew Townsend: years. So we argued to the the the Grantor that we're in a news
• 11:21
  Matthew Townsend: desert and we argued successfully enough to get money. So so it's actually been
• 11:26
  Matthew Townsend: quite exciting. but it's it's you know, it's it's not a money-making venture for
• 11:31
  Matthew Townsend: for me at this point. It's it's a labor of love.
• 11:37
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, passion, labor of love. Okay, good. Well thank you for thank you
• 11:43
  Martha Tatarnic: for sharing all of that and just providing the context for our conversation today.
• 11:50
  Martha Tatarnic: So why don't we talk about the Anglican Journal? to start with. So the
• 11:57
  Martha Tatarnic: Anglican Journal is our national Anglican Church of Canada newspaper. Maybe you can just
• 12:04
  Martha Tatarnic: share with our audience how the Anglican journal has functioned in the past and
• 12:11
  Martha Tatarnic: then what has changed because our conversation is prompted by a change in in
• 12:18
  Martha Tatarnic: the Anglican journal.
• 12:25
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah, so I I had to remind myself a bit of this. So I
• 12:30
  Matthew Townsend: went looking then and the journal's website, you know, has a history of of
• 12:35
  Matthew Townsend: the publication. And you can see that it's really sort of gone back and
• 12:40
  Matthew Townsend: forth as to whether it's an independent publication or whether it's published by the
• 12:45
  Matthew Townsend: church and what the the role of it is. it was established in the
• 12:50
  Matthew Townsend: nineteenth century. and you know, so it has a long history. The the journal,
• 12:55
  Matthew Townsend: even even when it was published by the church, there seemed to be a
• 13:00
  Matthew Townsend: desire from the the forties through the nineties of this past century to to
• 13:05
  Matthew Townsend: have it as an independent voice, a
• 13:11
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm.
• 13:14
  Matthew Townsend: a journalistic organ, a truth telling instrument.
• 13:18
  Martha Tatarnic: Really?
• 13:20
  Matthew Townsend: in which editors every editor I've heard of always fought for.
• 13:26
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 13:27
  Matthew Townsend: And and then I think with the nineties, we see the emergence of public
• 13:33
  Matthew Townsend: relations as being more universal, I think, among nonprofits, churches, other institutions, businesses, and
• 13:39
  Matthew Townsend: and so there's some cultural change Perhaps the church be becomes more preoccupied with
• 13:45
  Matthew Townsend: its messaging, you know, and how it's being perceived. the residential schools in Canada,
• 13:51
  Matthew Townsend: you know, that that were the revelations about their genocidal past becoming more apparent
• 13:58
  Matthew Townsend: around the year 2000, and the journal you know published and won awards talking
• 14:04
  Matthew Townsend: about that, you know, spurred some further evolutions in terms of the journal. But
• 14:10
  Matthew Townsend: its its mission was really journalistic from the start, and and that's really what's
• 14:16
  Matthew Townsend: been called into question or removed, you know, in in recent decision making by
• 14:22
  Matthew Townsend: the church.
• 14:29
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. So you wrote a piece for Broadview magazine, right? I have that
• 14:37
  Martha Tatarnic: correct. so I I'm gonna pull a few things from there. You you note
• 14:46
  Martha Tatarnic: in that piece that that there has been pretty constant tension between the institutional
• 14:55
  Martha Tatarnic: church leadership and the Anglican Journal. And you know, I think that you're you're
• 15:04
  Martha Tatarnic: kind of circling around what that tension is about, but like at its heart,
• 15:13
  Martha Tatarnic: what what has been the push-pull of the Anglican Journal's function and MO?
• 15:22
  Matthew Townsend: You know, I once had someone who was involved with the journal for a
• 15:26
  Matthew Townsend: long time tell me that they they felt that that changes had been appropriately
• 15:30
  Matthew Townsend: made to ensure that the edit editor of the journal wasn't acting as a
• 15:34
  Matthew Townsend: second primate, a second leader of the church. Which was really
• 15:39
  Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
• 15:41
  Matthew Townsend: interesting phrasing. and while I appreciate that the there's a hierarchy in the church.
• 15:47
  Matthew Townsend: journalism should sit, I think, outside of that. And so I think the the
• 15:54
  Matthew Townsend: a lot of the tension over the years have has emerged from the idea
• 16:01
  Matthew Townsend: that the journal could point out that the church is wrong about something.
• 16:08
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 16:11
  Matthew Townsend: I argued in my very first editorial that I I felt the role of
• 16:15
  Matthew Townsend: the journal was to serve as a a good and dear friend to the
• 16:19
  Matthew Townsend: church. And if you've had good friends, really good friends, you know that they're
• 16:24
  Matthew Townsend: capable of telling you truths that can just be devastating. But that you need
• 16:28
  Matthew Townsend: to hear.
• 16:33
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:35
  Matthew Townsend: And and so I think that the tension has come from the fact that
• 16:40
  Matthew Townsend: that the journal is capable of pointing things out.
• 16:46
  Martha Tatarnic: The
• 16:46
  Matthew Townsend: that the church wouldn't necessarily want to have pointed out. It's capable of of
• 16:53
  Matthew Townsend: contradicting It's contradicting messaging with with fact. And that's I mean, nobody wants that
• 17:00
  Matthew Townsend: when they're when they're coming up with talking points.
• 17:08
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 17:09
  Matthew Townsend: It's as I as I note in the piece I wrote in Broadview, I
• 17:12
  Matthew Townsend: I understand. Yeah, I've I've worked in church public relations too. I was the
• 17:15
  Matthew Townsend: communications director for the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester, New York for five years. So
• 17:18
  Matthew Townsend: I've been on the other hand.
• 17:21
  Martha Tatarnic: Right, right. You've been on the other side. Yeah.
• 17:25
  Matthew Townsend: But but I I think there's something very particular about how the the the
• 17:31
  Matthew Townsend: the culture around the journal I think evolved over the years in the church,
• 17:37
  Matthew Townsend: where that that tension was very toxic and and sometimes I I still find
• 17:43
  Matthew Townsend: it hard to explain to some degree. You know, I I think there are
• 17:49
  Matthew Townsend: reasons you can point to, like like I said, you know, having a a
• 17:55
  Matthew Townsend: a a someone in the room who can contradict you can be difficult.
• 18:02
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 18:02
  Matthew Townsend: But but yeah, it's it's it was it was tough.
• 18:07
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean I have some thoughts about that tension too and maybe we'll
• 18:12
  Martha Tatarnic: we'll get into that as as we go on. so just to clarify, the
• 18:18
  Martha Tatarnic: change that has now been articulated is that that journalistic autonomy has been removed
• 18:23
  Martha Tatarnic: and the Anglican Journal is going to function as a communication arm of the
• 18:29
  Martha Tatarnic: Anglican Church of Canada. Is that correct? Like that there's not going to be
• 18:34
  Martha Tatarnic: that that independence any longer.
• 18:40
  Matthew Townsend: That's how I understand it from from the publication from the Council of General
• 18:44
  Matthew Townsend: Synods and and that it's effective immediately. Like the the journal is now a
• 18:48
  Matthew Townsend: part of the the communication strategy of the church.
• 18:52
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, okay. All right. So, I mean I think that there is a really
• 18:58
  Martha Tatarnic: specific Anglican component to all of this and particularly a Canadian Anglican component to
• 19:05
  Martha Tatarnic: all of this. I wanna broaden our conversation to the the wider church as
• 19:12
  Martha Tatarnic: well, but I do just wanna name like In the Anglican Church of Canada
• 19:19
  Martha Tatarnic: there are very few like just the way that the system is set up,
• 19:26
  Martha Tatarnic: there are very few measures of accountability for our leaders. and and in some
• 19:33
  Martha Tatarnic: ways, you know, I I have friends in the Episcopal Church and the the
• 19:40
  Martha Tatarnic: Church of England. and they actually have more arms of accountability built into their
• 19:47
  Martha Tatarnic: system than we do here in in the Anglican Church of Canada. So that
• 19:54
  Martha Tatarnic: that accountability piece that the journal offered, even if imperfectly, because of that tension
• 20:01
  Martha Tatarnic: that you that you name, like that's a really that has been a really
• 20:08
  Martha Tatarnic: important piece of the health of the Anglican Church of Canada. And I think
• 20:15
  Martha Tatarnic: a lot of us are feeling pretty worried about having that accountability taken away.
• 20:22
  Martha Tatarnic: As you say, I mean, any of us who serve in church leadership, we
• 20:29
  Martha Tatarnic: know that, you know, when you're beleaguered by a million different concerns each and
• 20:36
  Martha Tatarnic: every day, yeah, you don't necessarily want to hear from the critical voice in
• 20:43
  Martha Tatarnic: the room, but you also know that you need to, right? Like, that goes
• 20:50
  Martha Tatarnic: for the parish level of the church and it goes for the the institution.
• 20:57
  Martha Tatarnic: Level of the church. You say in your piece, your broad view piece, that
• 21:04
  Martha Tatarnic: you know, Canadian Anglicans don't really deserve good journalism. we've we've sort of had
• 21:11
  Martha Tatarnic: a track record of eating up and spitting out a long list of editors
• 21:18
  Martha Tatarnic: of the Anglican Journal that has made it clear that we as an institution
• 21:25
  Martha Tatarnic: haven't always been interested in or supportive of independent journalism. But you say like
• 21:32
  Martha Tatarnic: we do need journalism. We need independent journalism. Do you wanna I mean I've
• 21:39
  Martha Tatarnic: said a few of the reasons why I think it's important. Like why do
• 21:46
  Martha Tatarnic: you see that independence to be so important to the health of the church.
• 21:53
  Matthew Townsend: Well, I th I think speaking to the Anglican context, which as I've noted,
• 21:59
  Matthew Townsend: I'm I'm not Anglican anymore, so I I speak as an outsider at this
• 22:06
  Matthew Townsend: point. the Anglican Church of Canada is i i it's it's a colonial organism,
• 22:13
  Matthew Townsend: right? It is it was involved in a genocidal colonial project very directly, you
• 22:20
  Matthew Townsend: know, in in terms of residential schools. it's English fundamentally and it's so it's
• 22:27
  Matthew Townsend: part of of the history of the colonization of Canada. And so I I
• 22:34
  Matthew Townsend: think truth telling in the colonial context is and and truth telling and accountability
• 22:41
  Matthew Townsend: have historically been fairly limited. They're not well received, you know, because colonialism is
• 22:48
  Matthew Townsend: all about one larger power deciding What should happen somewhere else.
• 22:55
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm.
• 22:55
  Matthew Townsend: And doing so with a great deal of liberty. and and usually at the
• 23:01
  Matthew Townsend: expense of the liberty of others. and and so I think the Anglican Church
• 23:08
  Matthew Townsend: of Canada has some very particular needs in in terms of truth-telling and accountability
• 23:14
  Matthew Townsend: that might perhaps be more aggressive. Than some other denominations. Which for many Anglicans
• 23:21
  Matthew Townsend: might seem counterintuitive because Anglicans tend to lean more liberal, not entirely. You know,
• 23:27
  Matthew Townsend: there are certainly conservative pockets in the church, but but the Anglican church is
• 23:34
  Matthew Townsend: home to many progressive people. And I think progressives like to imagine themselves not
• 23:40
  Matthew Townsend: suffering from these kinds of problems. But when it comes to the colonial project
• 23:47
  Matthew Townsend: in Canada, many progressive people have been involved with that or have benefited from
• 23:54
  Matthew Townsend: it in some way. And and so thinking about how is is is the
• 24:00
  Matthew Townsend: Anglican Church of Canada descended from from institutions and from people who were good
• 24:07
  Matthew Townsend: at truth telling? Hm, maybe not. because, you know, if if we look at
• 24:13
  Matthew Townsend: what has happened in Canada, you know, especially in terms of indigenous peoples, it's
• 24:20
  Matthew Townsend: it's awful. And so so I think the Anglican Church has a a fairly
• 24:26
  Matthew Townsend: high burden to to try to speak truth to itself and to the world,
• 24:33
  Matthew Townsend: and to understand its its crimes against people. that it's committed and and that
• 24:39
  Matthew Townsend: that whilst it has this burden it also perhaps doesn't isn't isn't inclined because
• 24:46
  Matthew Townsend: it comes from that that has that colonial seed within it which is is
• 24:53
  Matthew Townsend: is not really geared towards accountability but was part of a project of expansion
• 24:59
  Matthew Townsend: or or domination You know, I mean Dominion is is a word that means
• 25:06
  Matthew Townsend: something in Canada, right? And it you know, the Anglican journal used to be
• 25:12
  Matthew Townsend: the the Dominion Churchman, right? So so this is this is a part of
• 25:19
  Matthew Townsend: of the Anglican story, in which truth is probably more important than it might
• 25:25
  Matthew Townsend: be or or more n you know, more necessary than it might be in
• 25:32
  Matthew Townsend: other denominations to really embrace the truth and to seek it.
• 25:39
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I really appreciate your naming that colonial dimension. I I hadn't exactly gone
• 25:45
  Martha Tatarnic: there in in my list of concerns around all of this, but you're absolutely
• 25:52
  Martha Tatarnic: right. And I think, you know, naming that as a specific not exclusively Anglican
• 25:58
  Martha Tatarnic: concern, but but a specific concern for the the Anglican church. I I think
• 26:05
  Martha Tatarnic: that progressive piece is really interesting as well. Because I think that all of
• 26:11
  Martha Tatarnic: us who define as progressive and I do, you know, I define as a
• 26:18
  Martha Tatarnic: progressive Christian. I think that we have a real like we can very easily
• 26:24
  Martha Tatarnic: slip into smugness and patting ourselves on the back and thinking like we've said
• 26:31
  Martha Tatarnic: the right progressive things so like everything must be fine. so I feel like
• 26:37
  Martha Tatarnic: that that that journalism truth telling piece is so important to hold progressive feet
• 26:44
  Martha Tatarnic: to the fire and say like these are the things that you say but
• 26:50
  Martha Tatarnic: like you know here might be some places where you're not living up to
• 26:57
  Martha Tatarnic: to what you say. And those are important things to hear. We need to
• 27:03
  Martha Tatarnic: hear that.
• 27:10
  Matthew Townsend: And it's it's something I've talked with with people who who advocate for survivors
• 27:15
  Matthew Townsend: of abuse in church context that which which I've done multiple times now since
• 27:21
  Matthew Townsend: leaving the journal, that progressive Christians often think they're they're immune. And there's a
• 27:27
  Matthew Townsend: a certain kind of magical thinking that can come with with progressive thinking that
• 27:33
  Matthew Townsend: that we just we might see ourselves as as incapable of doing those harms
• 27:39
  Matthew Townsend: and if we did, we would recognize them, we would say something and and
• 27:45
  Matthew Townsend: make it right. And that that doesn't always happen. You know, interesting example, around
• 27:51
  Matthew Townsend: the time that that I was drafting that Broadview piece, The Anglican Journal published
• 27:57
  Matthew Townsend: an op-ed by the primate of the Anglican Church of Canada, Shane Parker, about
• 28:03
  Matthew Townsend: the importance of of holding one another's stories accurately, which is very interesting at
• 28:09
  Matthew Townsend: the same time as the the church is removing editorial independence or journalistic mandate
• 28:15
  Matthew Townsend: from the journal. And a lot of what he wrote was about treatment of
• 28:21
  Matthew Townsend: Indigenous people in Canada, including by the church. And there was this phrasing in
• 28:27
  Matthew Townsend: it that was something like that the the forebears of the of of many
• 28:33
  Matthew Townsend: sort of settler Anglicans, you know, failed to recognize that the Holy Spirit was
• 28:39
  Matthew Townsend: already moving in and amongst the the indigenous people of Canada when they arrived.
• 28:45
  Matthew Townsend: And that great harm followed because of that. And you know, as I read
• 28:51
  Matthew Townsend: that I was pretty aghast because that's just not what happened, right? Like the
• 28:57
  Matthew Townsend: church didn't harm indigenous people in Canada because it failed to see that the
• 29:03
  Matthew Townsend: Holy Spirit was moving among them any more than white people enslaved black people,
• 29:09
  Matthew Townsend: Africans, because they failed to recognize they weren't farm equipment. That's just not what
• 29:15
  Matthew Townsend: happened, right? Right. What happened was part of a a determined effort to take
• 29:21
  Matthew Townsend: a culture and make it extinct.
• 29:27
  Martha Tatarnic: Hmm.
• 29:28
  Matthew Townsend: So I think this is part of the discomfort that comes with having a
• 29:32
  Matthew Townsend: journalistic voice present, or even just an an openness to irritating voices, because church
• 29:36
  Matthew Townsend: churches don't necessarily need journalism. You know, an openness to the voice that will
• 29:40
  Matthew Townsend: say that's that's just not accurate. You are not describing what happened. So you're
• 29:44
  Matthew Townsend: sort of you're you're you're patting yourself on the back for the apologies and
• 29:48
  Matthew Townsend: for the the the efforts to to build up the indigenous church, which is
• 29:52
  Matthew Townsend: a good thing for sure.
• 29:57
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 30:00
  Matthew Townsend: But on the other hand, you're you're describing something in a way that to
• 30:05
  Matthew Townsend: me is just it's not factual. It's not what happened. You know, indigenous people
• 30:10
  Matthew Townsend: children weren't stolen from homes and forced into schools where they died of tuberculosis,
• 30:15
  Matthew Townsend: among other things. Because of a misunderstanding of their faith or how they you
• 30:20
  Matthew Townsend: know or the presence of the Holy Spirit among them. So I I
• 30:25
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 30:25
  Matthew Townsend: just find that kind of phrasing repugnant. And and you know, having having people
• 30:29
  Matthew Townsend: inside the church who are charged with thinking critically and talking about the church,
• 30:34
  Matthew Townsend: it it's it's challenging.
• 30:39
  Martha Tatarnic: It's challenging, yeah.
• 30:41
  Matthew Townsend: So are you receptive to those kinds of voices? What do you do with
• 30:43
  Matthew Townsend: them?
• 30:46
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I wanna I mean, I think at the heart like
• 30:54
  Martha Tatarnic: of that particular conversation, like we're we're diving into really complex waters. Like it's
• 31:02
  Martha Tatarnic: a very complex thing to do. anything about truth and reconciliation beyond talk, right?
• 31:10
  Martha Tatarnic: Like I I've been working in Indigenous water partnerships for 14 years and it
• 31:19
  Martha Tatarnic: is like hard work to build relationships that have been fractured and to work
• 31:27
  Martha Tatarnic: with communities to try to find healing ways forward. Like it's Complex, difficult, challenging
• 31:35
  Martha Tatarnic: work. And you're right, like having critical voices at the table so that we
• 31:44
  Martha Tatarnic: can make sure that we're investing the kind of complexity that these issues deserve
• 31:52
  Martha Tatarnic: is, I think, incredibly important. and again, that's a piece that is specific to
• 32:00
  Martha Tatarnic: the Anglican Church of Canada, but not exclusive to the Anglican Church of Canada.
• 32:08
  Martha Tatarnic: I mean that I think the church. all across the globe has has a
• 32:17
  Martha Tatarnic: lot of really significant controversial issues to to wade into, history to interrogate, and
• 32:25
  Martha Tatarnic: and finding healthy way forwards is a healthy way forward is by no means
• 32:33
  Martha Tatarnic: straightforward.
• 32:42
  Matthew Townsend: Well, church church is dangerous, right? Congregating
• 32:44
  Martha Tatarnic: The church is dangerous.
• 32:46
  Matthew Townsend: congregating together is dangerous. So it's not just Christian churches. It's you know, i
• 32:52
  Matthew Townsend: if you've ever been involved in like a a a salsa dance community, like
• 32:58
  Matthew Townsend: the worst kind of human behavior can come out, you know, any time you
• 33:04
  Matthew Townsend: you put people together and and some have authority over others. And so you
• 33:11
  Matthew Townsend: know this is think a huge challenge for for the Christian church at the
• 33:17
  Matthew Townsend: present moment because in my view like society is bonkers. We we're in this
• 33:23
  Matthew Townsend: incredible space right now where the climate is is trashed and is getting worse.
• 33:30
  Matthew Townsend: You know the the the labor market is is really confused, you know, automation,
• 33:36
  Matthew Townsend: AI, and po politics is astounding, you know, and is painful to even to
• 33:42
  Matthew Townsend: pay attention to.
• 33:49
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 33:49
  Matthew Townsend: And so the church should be, I think, a a a stabilizing force in
• 33:53
  Matthew Townsend: the midst of that. and and so part of that is being able to
• 33:57
  Matthew Townsend: deal with these very complex subjects well.
• 34:02
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm, yeah. Well and honestly and courageously, I think. Yeah, so I we're sort
• 34:09
  Martha Tatarnic: of edging into that, you know, broader conversation around the role of journalism in
• 34:17
  Martha Tatarnic: Christianity in general. and, you know, my thought goes back to the tension that
• 34:25
  Martha Tatarnic: you identified, across many years between the Institutional Church and the Anglican Journal. And
• 34:33
  Martha Tatarnic: I wonder what role institutional decline plays in that. You know, I I'm fascinated
• 34:41
  Martha Tatarnic: by looking at other institutions that that feel under threat. that where the future
• 34:49
  Martha Tatarnic: is by no means secure. And I think, you know, across a whole variety
• 34:57
  Martha Tatarnic: of of institutional forms and stories, you can see that when that decline starts
• 35:05
  Martha Tatarnic: to be felt, that there can be a real doubling down on managing the
• 35:13
  Martha Tatarnic: message and keeping critical voices in check, which is ironic because it's the exact
• 35:21
  Martha Tatarnic: opposite of probably what is needed in order to address decline in in healthy
• 35:29
  Martha Tatarnic: ways. You know, you need you actually need to have a lot of voices
• 35:37
  Martha Tatarnic: at the table. You need to be looking at a variety of perspectives. But
• 35:45
  Martha Tatarnic: that that instinct just seems to to be so strong in the face of
• 35:53
  Martha Tatarnic: decline is to make sure that everybody is saying the same thing and pulling
• 36:01
  Martha Tatarnic: in the same direction. where do you see that piece around decline, around the
• 36:09
  Martha Tatarnic: the more general future of the church, not specifically the Anglican church, and what
• 36:17
  Martha Tatarnic: purpose journalism can serve?
• 36:25
  Matthew Townsend: Well, I mean, speaking broadly, you know, certain pockets of Christianity are in decline,
• 36:30
  Matthew Townsend: other other pockets are growing. you know, I I presently belong to a denomination
• 36:35
  Matthew Townsend: which is seeing growth. you know, our our parish has a terrible building problem,
• 36:41
  Matthew Townsend: which is the building is far too small for the number of people coming
• 36:46
  Matthew Townsend: to church. So, you know, so th there's there's a variety of of circumstances,
• 36:52
  Matthew Townsend: you know, across Christendom, so to speak. but in terms of decline, I I
• 36:57
  Matthew Townsend: think you you're bang on and that and that in I think what might
• 37:03
  Matthew Townsend: be special in terms of the Anglican Church is that it was the state
• 37:08
  Matthew Townsend: church, right? So, you know, it's it's it's it ha it held a position
• 37:14
  Matthew Townsend: in society. You know, where I used to worship at at St. Paul's in
• 37:19
  Matthew Townsend: Halifax. Anglican. And there's a there's a pew for the king.
• 37:25
  Martha Tatarnic: Hmm.
• 37:25
  Matthew Townsend: Right. You know, the the Lieutenant Governor of Nova Scotia gives an annual address
• 37:30
  Matthew Townsend: at St. Paul's by tradition. Right. And and so like the the the Anglican
• 37:35
  Matthew Townsend: church held a very specific role in Canada, as it does in England. You
• 37:40
  Matthew Townsend: know, who puts who puts the crown on the king's head, right? It's the
• 37:45
  Matthew Townsend: Archbishop of Canterbury.
• 37:51
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 37:53
  Matthew Townsend: So Anglicanism has some special features, you know, that that aren't present. there are
• 37:58
  Matthew Townsend: no You know, there are no Mennonites who are are are crowning kings and
• 38:03
  Matthew Townsend: queens.
• 38:08
  Martha Tatarnic: That's true.
• 38:12
  Matthew Townsend: So so I think part of the the struggle with with truth telling in
• 38:17
  Matthew Townsend: in terms of decline in the Anglican church is that it has that history
• 38:23
  Matthew Townsend: of power, right? Right. Of influence. and maybe more influence than power, right? That
• 38:28
  Matthew Townsend: it's you know, the the the bishops are the ones moving around diagonally on
• 38:34
  Matthew Townsend: the board, right? They they're they're important. they're not the king and queen, but
• 38:39
  Matthew Townsend: they matter.
• 38:45
  Martha Tatarnic: Right.
• 38:46
  Matthew Townsend: And and they have the they have the ears of people. And so I
• 38:51
  Matthew Townsend: think there's a certain kind of intrigue that can be present in Anglicanism, as
• 38:56
  Matthew Townsend: it can be s in the Catholic Church as well. where you know that
• 39:01
  Matthew Townsend: that proximity to power, that proximity to state Which was certainly the case in
• 39:06
  Matthew Townsend: the Anglican Church of Canada, carries with it a lot of baggage. And and
• 39:11
  Matthew Townsend: so I think, you know, what does it mean? You know, if we we
• 39:16
  Matthew Townsend: think about like the Church of England, what does it mean to be in
• 39:21
  Matthew Townsend: in institution in decline while you also are the the person who has to
• 39:26
  Matthew Townsend: literally put the the crown on the king's head? You know? It's it's sort
• 39:31
  Matthew Townsend: of ridiculous. Right. And and so I I I think that that There's an
• 39:36
  Matthew Townsend: absurdity that kind of comes w with Anglican decline because we have. I say
• 39:41
  Matthew Townsend: we, I'm not Anglican anymore, but within Anglicanism, there's there's a lot of pomp,
• 39:46
  Matthew Townsend: there's a lot of circumstances, circumstance, there's that proximity to power.
• 39:51
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 39:53
  Matthew Townsend: and and a lot to uphold with that. You know, there's music that's meant
• 39:58
  Matthew Townsend: to be sung by massive teams of people in huge buildings.
• 40:03
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 40:03
  Matthew Townsend: Right. you know, the there's Anglicanism is tied to to these these ideas of
• 40:08
  Matthew Townsend: of power and and awe and might. I go to a church that doesn't
• 40:14
  Matthew Townsend: have running water, you know, in in the our our Orthodox parish. It's in
• 40:20
  Matthew Townsend: a former Anglican building, like a summer chapel. There's no running water. People people
• 40:25
  Matthew Townsend: bring dishes in. clean and they bring them out dirty and wash them at
• 40:31
  Matthew Townsend: home.
• 40:37
  Martha Tatarnic: Wow.
• 40:38
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah. Which I've only ever really I've seen Anglicans do things like that, but
• 40:42
  Matthew Townsend: only really on reserves in in indigenous context, right?
• 40:46
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:48
  Matthew Townsend: but I think for most Anglicans like that idea would be insane. You know
• 40:54
  Matthew Townsend: we it's just not something Anglicans would do. so I I do I do
• 41:00
  Matthew Townsend: think that that decline in that context of that rich history, which many Anglicans
• 41:07
  Matthew Townsend: are proud of, and I I don't know that they shouldn't be. you know,
• 41:13
  Matthew Townsend: and certainly musically and and visually, like Anglicanism is rich. It has its liturgy
• 41:19
  Matthew Townsend: is beautiful. it's meant to be in grand spaces, you know. it's meant to
• 41:26
  Matthew Townsend: be performed in certain ways. but like when you're when you're declining in those
• 41:32
  Matthew Townsend: circumstances, I think the decline really stings.
• 41:39
  Martha Tatarnic: Right.
• 41:40
  Matthew Townsend: You know, if you're declining as a primitive Baptist church, you've just got fewer
• 41:44
  Matthew Townsend: people singing a cappella. I guess it's just not the same circumstance, you know,
• 41:49
  Matthew Townsend: versus like literally not being able to hire an organist anymore. Literally not being
• 41:54
  Matthew Townsend: able to to have the number of people necessary to put together the liturgy
• 41:59
  Matthew Townsend: in the way that you think it should be.
• 42:04
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I hear that. I mean, I hear the the specificity of it.
• 42:10
  Martha Tatarnic: And at the same time, you know, we talk to leaders across a lot
• 42:17
  Martha Tatarnic: of different denominations and that fear for the future and fear for survival and
• 42:24
  Martha Tatarnic: anxiety about survival, it gets ingrained pretty deep no matter where you look. like
• 42:30
  Martha Tatarnic: when when people feel like something that they love is slipping away, anxiety can
• 42:37
  Martha Tatarnic: definitely take hold. And and I think it's easy to have cloudy decision making
• 42:44
  Martha Tatarnic: when anxiety is the the driving the bus, you know?
• 42:51
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah, you you can't. You can't make good decisions when you're anxious. It just
• 42:55
  Matthew Townsend: doesn't work. And and I think that that's you go going back to journalism,
• 42:59
  Matthew Townsend: that can be one of the the helpful and difficult aspects, right? Because journalism
• 43:04
  Matthew Townsend: can point the way towards better decision making. But it can also make you
• 43:08
  Matthew Townsend: more anxious too. And so maybe that's part of the concern in in the
• 43:12
  Matthew Townsend: church. It's just too much to worry about. And maybe it really is too
• 43:17
  Matthew Townsend: much for the Anglican Church of Canada to worry about. It's the church is
• 43:21
  Matthew Townsend: shrinking. You know, I mean, it it's it's trying to to navigate very difficult
• 43:25
  Matthew Townsend: decisions
• 43:30
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 43:31
  Matthew Townsend: in that decline. and and then to have this sort of rogue arm. You
• 43:35
  Matthew Townsend: know, saying, Well, haven't you thought about this? Like for I cited that that
• 43:39
  Matthew Townsend: that column by by the Primate that was published in it was published in
• 43:44
  Matthew Townsend: the journal. If I were the editor of the journal, I would have sent
• 43:48
  Matthew Townsend: it back to him and said, I can't publish this. We need to talk
• 43:52
  Matthew Townsend: about it. That's
• 43:57
  Martha Tatarnic: Right. Yeah.
• 43:58
  Matthew Townsend: irritating. It's time cons it's time consuming. And so I
• 44:03
  Martha Tatarnic: Expensive. I mean there's like the whole resource piece, right? Like we know that
• 44:08
  Martha Tatarnic: that becomes a factor as you're sort of identifying. Yeah.
• 44:14
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah, so you know, I I I it's I Th I understand why there's
• 44:18
  Matthew Townsend: a lot of an anxiety. There's not anxiety, you know, th there's a different
• 44:23
  Matthew Townsend: kind of anxiety in my my present denomination, right? I think everyone is worried
• 44:28
  Matthew Townsend: about something. which is is kind of funny given our instructions, right? You know,
• 44:33
  Matthew Townsend: consider the lilies of the field. Yeah,
• 44:38
  Martha Tatarnic: Right, yeah.
• 44:39
  Matthew Townsend: we're not supposed to worry too much about these things. And yet we're we're
• 44:42
  Matthew Townsend: almost in a constant state of of worry.
• 44:46
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I feel like Jesus does understand that saying don't worry doesn't necessarily mean
• 44:51
  Martha Tatarnic: that we won't.
• 44:57
  Matthew Townsend: well we're I mean, we're going we're going to do all kinds of things
• 45:02
  Matthew Townsend: that Jesus says not to do. So that's that's the nature of being human.
• 45:07
  Matthew Townsend: but I think, you know, we need to be reminded that that a clear
• 45:12
  Matthew Townsend: eyed view, you know, ev even if it's harsh, is better than than perhaps
• 45:17
  Matthew Townsend: a more fanciful take on things. And is is more important for decision making.
• 45:22
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. like, is there a theological or biblical lens you would put on
• 45:31
  Martha Tatarnic: the role of journalism in in the church, not just the Anglican church?
• 45:41
  Matthew Townsend: Well, I think, you know, truth telling is is vital in any church. You
• 45:45
  Matthew Townsend: know, every Christian church needs to be open to the truth.
• 45:50
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 45:51
  Matthew Townsend: and with that truth being first and foremost Jesus Christ. and then the expression
• 45:58
  Matthew Townsend: of of the truth in each church as as you know, as as a
• 46:06
  Matthew Townsend: church is engaging its Congregants, its neighborhoods, its context, you know, just constantly seeking
• 46:14
  Matthew Townsend: truth. so I I think, you know, a theological framework for me is merely
• 46:22
  Matthew Townsend: that that Christ invites us to look very deeply into ourselves and to make
• 46:30
  Matthew Townsend: good decisions based upon that, you know. to to to follow the path that
• 46:38
  Matthew Townsend: he set for us. And and and I and I think there are a
• 46:46
  Matthew Townsend: lot of really clear instructions, right, about who's important to God.
• 46:54
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 46:56
  Matthew Townsend: how should what is discipleship look like?
• 47:00
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 47:03
  Matthew Townsend: And and as I've argued before, and I think I said this in my
• 47:07
  Matthew Townsend: resignation from the Anglican Journal, which I eventually made public, to me like journalism
• 47:11
  Matthew Townsend: is compatible with these things. I think it's entirely possible to be a Christian
• 47:15
  Matthew Townsend: journalist.
• 47:20
  Martha Tatarnic: I hope so.
• 47:22
  Matthew Townsend: So there's nothing I don't I d and I and I think it's it's
• 47:24
  Matthew Townsend: it's in keeping with. You know,
• 47:27
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 47:28
  Matthew Townsend: the I mean most journalists I know are are are quite keen to to
• 47:33
  Matthew Townsend: serve people who are are in danger, who are are being ignored, you know,
• 47:38
  Matthew Townsend: who are are are crushed by society. They they want voices to be heard,
• 47:43
  Matthew Townsend: they want problems to be seen. Which is work that the the church does
• 47:48
  Matthew Townsend: as well.
• 47:53
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. I think the two words that like really come to the forefront for
• 47:59
  Martha Tatarnic: me would be prophecy and discernment. You know, I think that like scripture is
• 48:06
  Martha Tatarnic: extremely clear about that prophetic role of that voice crying in the wilderness, saying
• 48:13
  Martha Tatarnic: the things that you'd rather nobody said out loud, calling people to look at
• 48:20
  Martha Tatarnic: things that they don't want to look at. you know, that is like that's
• 48:27
  Martha Tatarnic: the bread and butter of our scriptural tradition. And, you know, the other piece
• 48:34
  Martha Tatarnic: is around discernment. Like, we do have really important things to wrestle with in
• 48:40
  Martha Tatarnic: terms of how God is calling us to serve the needs of the world.
• 48:47
  Martha Tatarnic: And you can't do good discernment without having a variety of voices as part
• 48:54
  Martha Tatarnic: of that that that discernment process and that process of prayer and that process
• 49:01
  Martha Tatarnic: of listening. if you're if you're just trying to manage what voices get into
• 49:08
  Martha Tatarnic: the mix, that really clouds the discernment.
• 49:15
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah, I've always been hesitant around the word you know, prophecy or or speaking
• 49:19
  Matthew Townsend: of prophetic voices because various people would sort of refer to me as that
• 49:24
  Matthew Townsend: when I was the editor of the journal as having a prophetic voice. And
• 49:28
  Matthew Townsend: and you know, although I I I didn't really want to be the editor
• 49:33
  Matthew Townsend: editor of the journal, I tried to avoid the job, even though I applied
• 49:38
  Matthew Townsend: for it, and then when I didn't get it and someone else got it
• 49:42
  Matthew Townsend: and then was fired in a month, I went back and said, you know,
• 49:47
  Matthew Townsend: I'm still available. I I would joke that I had I had booked my
• 49:52
  Matthew Townsend: ticket. It's Tatarshish. you know, I was really wanting to avoid where God was
• 49:56
  Matthew Townsend: sending me. but I I do think like what's interesting about prophecy and discernment
• 50:01
  Matthew Townsend: when we look in the Bible and I I think, you know, the Old
• 50:06
  Matthew Townsend: Testament especially, you know, people in power don't like prophets. They don't. Yeah. because
• 50:10
  Matthew Townsend: it's it's it's t it's terribly inconvenient, you know. And And it's so for
• 50:15
  Matthew Townsend: profits can be quite stressful. you know, I I think, you know, at this
• 50:20
  Matthew Townsend: point in my life I just try to develop a you know, an attitude
• 50:24
  Matthew Townsend: of, all right, well, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna tell ya what I
• 50:29
  Matthew Townsend: know and then I'm gonna go dance in this furnace over here. And that's
• 50:34
  Matthew Townsend: just that's just all that I I can really do at this point. You
• 50:38
  Matthew Townsend: know, so I I I think, you know, i i in in a church
• 50:43
  Matthew Townsend: Having people who are charged with with prophecy, with truth telling, with describing the
• 50:48
  Matthew Townsend: world as it is, or describing the church as it is is important. Having
• 50:52
  Matthew Townsend: people who make decisions, that's also important. These do not need to be the
• 50:57
  Matthew Townsend: same people, but they should probably be cooperating.
• 51:02
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 51:03
  Matthew Townsend: and and I think that's what that's clearly not been present in the Anglican
• 51:08
  Matthew Townsend: Church of Canada. going back to the specific context where you've had people who
• 51:14
  Matthew Townsend: are trying to to offer a a description of reality, right? As they see
• 51:19
  Matthew Townsend: it and understand it. Who are trained to do so because they're journalists, right?
• 51:25
  Matthew Townsend: And then you have people who are charged with with decision making, with discerning
• 51:30
  Matthew Townsend: a path forward. and and I can tell you that The the twain didn't
• 51:36
  Matthew Townsend: exactly meet all that often, you know, in in my experience. And then ultimately
• 51:41
  Matthew Townsend: really didn't, you know, in in terms of what prompted me to leave. you
• 51:47
  Matthew Townsend: know, and I tried to, you know, because I was Anglican when I was
• 51:52
  Matthew Townsend: where I think I was one of the probably the the first Anglican editor
• 51:58
  Matthew Townsend: of the journal in in years when I became editor. So I I wanted
• 52:03
  Matthew Townsend: to have a cooperative conversations. you know, where I could provide useful information for
• 52:09
  Matthew Townsend: decision making. but it was it wasn't looked it was it was not viewed
• 52:14
  Matthew Townsend: in that way. you know, especially as as my time there dragged on.
• 52:20
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm. Are there are there any places that you would point to where you
• 52:27
  Martha Tatarnic: would say, okay, like there's an example of where good Christian journalism is supported
• 52:34
  Martha Tatarnic: and it is serving the the church.
• 52:41
  Matthew Townsend: Well, I can think of some past examples. As I mentioned, the the journal
• 52:46
  Matthew Townsend: did some really groundbreak breaking work back in year 2000 in relation to residential
• 52:51
  Matthew Townsend: schools. I'm pretty sure that Broadview's predecessor, the the United Church Observer, did fantastic
• 52:57
  Matthew Townsend: reporting about the the martyring of nuns in El Salvador. Like I think they
• 53:02
  Matthew Townsend: they happen to be on the ground for that. In in terms of present
• 53:08
  Matthew Townsend: examples, I think it's it's You know, religious news service does good work. they're
• 53:13
  Matthew Townsend: not in a particular denomination. Right. You know, I I worked at the Living
• 53:19
  Matthew Townsend: Church for a long time, which is an American magazine, it's Episcopalian, but it's
• 53:24
  Matthew Townsend: not integrated into the church. So you can see some very good reporting that's
• 53:29
  Matthew Townsend: happened over the years that has impacted things. I a specific example from my
• 53:35
  Matthew Townsend: time there, I was attending the twenty eighteen general convention. which is is for
• 53:40
  Matthew Townsend: non Episcopalians and Anglicans is is the massive triennial governance meeting that which at
• 53:46
  Matthew Townsend: least at that time was like the largest bicameral legislature in the world. so
• 53:51
  Matthew Townsend: a a lot of Episcopalians getting together to meet and talk about things and
• 53:57
  Matthew Townsend: and make some decisions. And I was news editor, so I had some reporters
• 54:02
  Matthew Townsend: and I assigned them out to things. And I think everyone sort of agreed
• 54:08
  Matthew Townsend: that the Cuba committee meetings were probably the most boring. And so I said,
• 54:13
  Matthew Townsend: I'll take the Cuban meetings. And I speak some Spanish, so I thought it
• 54:18
  Matthew Townsend: would be fun. But I also, my my spidey sense was tingling anyway. And
• 54:24
  Matthew Townsend: so I I went and within the first meeting of that committee, which was
• 54:29
  Matthew Townsend: to decide how to integrate the the diocese of Cuba. back into the Episcopal
• 54:35
  Matthew Townsend: Church because it had left after the revolution, like it was sort of forced
• 54:40
  Matthew Townsend: out of the church, politically, you know, because of the circumstances after Castro took
• 54:46
  Matthew Townsend: over. And and it was ministered to by the Anglican Church of Canada, I
• 54:51
  Matthew Townsend: think by Barbados and one other I can't I can't remember the exact makeup,
• 54:57
  Matthew Townsend: but it was sort of looked after, but it was orphaned at the same
• 55:02
  Matthew Townsend: time. And so there was an effort to reintegrate the diocese back into the
• 55:07
  Matthew Townsend: Episcopal Church, which would have meant a lot, especially in terms of pensions, because
• 55:13
  Matthew Townsend: anyone who is involved in ministry in Cuba faces some some problems, you know,
• 55:18
  Matthew Townsend: in terms of social safety net. and so the retired clergy there were were
• 55:24
  Matthew Townsend: dealing, I think, with quite substantial poverty. so I went to the meeting and
• 55:29
  Matthew Townsend: it became apparent very quickly it was not going to be boring and that
• 55:35
  Matthew Townsend: in fact the chancellors of the church had decided that the The diocese could
• 55:40
  Matthew Townsend: not really be readmitted at that time because of the canonical structure. Like the
• 55:46
  Matthew Townsend: they needed to to vote over like two successive general conventions to to make
• 55:51
  Matthew Townsend: that kind of decision and that the process had been irregular, and so they
• 55:56
  Matthew Townsend: wouldn't be able to admit it at that point. And so I stayed up
• 56:02
  Matthew Townsend: until probably two AM writing, I think it was something like thirty five hundred
• 56:07
  Matthew Townsend: words about that. In which it was both reporting on what I was hearing,
• 56:13
  Matthew Townsend: as well as like a probably a fairly vicious analysis of that kind of
• 56:18
  Matthew Townsend: thinking when it, you know, in terms of like these these Christians, you know,
• 56:24
  Matthew Townsend: who were suffering, you know, because of their choice to be Christian in a
• 56:29
  Matthew Townsend: place where that's not easy.
• 56:35
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 56:37
  Matthew Townsend: And, you know, I had a couple of the committee members say to me
• 56:40
  Matthew Townsend: a couple of a couple of years later, that it was that piece that
• 56:44
  Matthew Townsend: made them understand what was happening in their own committee.
• 56:48
  Martha Tatarnic: Right, yeah.
• 56:49
  Matthew Townsend: And and so the the the the church, I think between the the the
• 56:55
  Matthew Townsend: bishops and and the the deputies decided pretty I think unanimously to to readmit
• 57:01
  Matthew Townsend: the Diocese of Cuba and to suspend suspend the rules basically which timing-wise was
• 57:07
  Matthew Townsend: was probably quite important. And so for me that was one of the best
• 57:13
  Matthew Townsend: moments of my career in religious journalism because I got to see something happen.
• 57:19
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 57:21
  Matthew Townsend: and you know, and it was I think it was important and it probably
• 57:24
  Matthew Townsend: irritated the chancellors of the Episcopal Church at the time, but for others, they
• 57:28
  Matthew Townsend: were like, I actually that that's that's not great with the direction this is
• 57:32
  Matthew Townsend: going.
• 57:36
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 57:37
  Matthew Townsend: And and my reporting was received well enough that it affected things.
• 57:43
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 57:44
  Matthew Townsend: You know. So I think it's possible, when there's openness, right, to that kind
• 57:49
  Matthew Townsend: of truth telling, you know, no one that I encountered the next day was
• 57:54
  Matthew Townsend: saying, Matt Townsend is from the living church, he's you know, he's a troublemaker.
• 57:59
  Matthew Townsend: They were like, that's a that's sort of a devastating take on the situation.
• 58:04
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 58:06
  Matthew Townsend: and I won an award for that piece. And but the far more important
• 58:09
  Matthew Townsend: to me was that that I had said something that I thought was true.
• 58:12
  Matthew Townsend: You know, that that
• 58:15
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 58:17
  Matthew Townsend: there were people who were overlooking the gospel imperative in that moment because of
• 58:24
  Matthew Townsend: of r rules, you know, because of things on paper.
• 58:31
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I I I think that's a a wonderful example and
• 58:37
  Martha Tatarnic: like points to what we hope for in in trying to continue to carve
• 58:44
  Martha Tatarnic: out places of truth telling and and places where complex things can be talked
• 58:51
  Martha Tatarnic: about in serious ways. There's a lot of anxiety right now in the Anglican
• 58:58
  Martha Tatarnic: Church of Canada around this decision and this the loss of of that space
• 59:04
  Martha Tatarnic: for that truth telling. So I really appreciate you being willing to talk today
• 59:11
  Martha Tatarnic: and to talk so candidly and to have a conversation that I think a
• 59:18
  Martha Tatarnic: lot of people are are looking to be had. So Thank you. We're gonna
• 59:25
  Martha Tatarnic: we're gonna go to some closing questions, change the the tenor a little bit
• 59:31
  Martha Tatarnic: here of our conversation. but thank you for helping engage with such a serious
• 59:38
  Martha Tatarnic: topic at what feels like a a really a real turning point. So thank
• 59:45
  Martha Tatarnic: you.
• 59:52
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah, well thank you for for inviting me on.
• 59:58
  Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Welcome back to the Future Christian podcast. I'm joined by Matt Townsend and
• 1:00:03
  Martha Tatarnic: we're going to wrap up our conversation today with some closing questions. Matt, we
• 1:00:09
  Martha Tatarnic: always tell our guests that you can take these questions as seriously as you
• 1:00:15
  Martha Tatarnic: want or not. So, you know, they're not they don't have to be answered
• 1:00:20
  Martha Tatarnic: completely. You know, nobody's gonna make you sign a contract on any of your
• 1:00:26
  Martha Tatarnic: answers. All right. If you were a pope for a day, what would be
• 1:00:32
  Martha Tatarnic: the priorities of that twenty four hours?
• 1:00:38
  Matthew Townsend: Abolish the papacy.
• 1:00:40
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 1:00:42
  Matthew Townsend: I'm sure you've had someone say that.
• 1:00:43
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:49
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah. I mean I'm not papist, so it's it's it's hard to to put
• 1:00:54
  Matthew Townsend: my myself in that headspace. but I I think, you know, are we talking
• 1:01:00
  Matthew Townsend: Catholic Church or or sort of generically the Pope?
• 1:01:06
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think we're just trying to say like if you had a lot
• 1:01:08
  Martha Tatarnic: of power to
• 1:01:10
  Matthew Townsend: If I were Queen for a day.
• 1:01:12
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, shake things up in Christendom.
• 1:01:16
  Matthew Townsend: I I think I would would really try to to sit people down who
• 1:01:23
  Matthew Townsend: are in profound disagreement and charge them with with talking.
• 1:01:31
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 1:01:32
  Matthew Townsend: Because there's there's been a a a lot of there's been so much schism
• 1:01:36
  Matthew Townsend: over the years and I this past weekend I was in Guysboro County in
• 1:01:40
  Matthew Townsend: Nova Scotia. And if you've never heard of it, you're with most people on
• 1:01:44
  Matthew Townsend: that. It's rural.
• 1:01:48
  Martha Tatarnic: Never heard.
• 1:01:49
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah, it's rural. It's the county has the population density of like Wyoming. It's
• 1:01:54
  Matthew Townsend: like three people a square mile or something like that. and there's an Anglican
• 1:02:00
  Matthew Townsend: church there that was deconsectr deconsecrated two years ago. And there's a churchyard there
• 1:02:05
  Matthew Townsend: with seven hundred souls buried in it or more. But the church is in
• 1:02:11
  Matthew Townsend: terrible disrepair. It's it's deconsecrated now. And and a lot of the headstones are
• 1:02:16
  Matthew Townsend: unreadable and are sort of falling over, whereas one of the other cemeteries in
• 1:02:22
  Matthew Townsend: town is just full of of of flowers and and that just wasn't really
• 1:02:28
  Matthew Townsend: apparent in this this old churchyard. And And so I was thinking about that,
• 1:02:33
  Matthew Townsend: you know, and thinking about coming onto this podcast, actually, as I was standing
• 1:02:39
  Matthew Townsend: in in the cemetery and thinking, you know, when church decline occurs, sometimes that
• 1:02:44
  Matthew Townsend: means that that people won't be prayed for anymore, you know, after they're gone,
• 1:02:50
  Matthew Townsend: that they won't be remembered.
• 1:02:56
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm.
• 1:02:57
  Matthew Townsend: in this case, the the Counties Historical Society actually created giant placards that are
• 1:03:01
  Matthew Townsend: outside of the churchyard that has the names and and dates of and and
• 1:03:05
  Matthew Townsend: and lifespans of people who are buried. So, you know, you can stand there
• 1:03:10
  Matthew Townsend: and read them one one child noted as living for for ten hours. And
• 1:03:14
  Matthew Townsend: you know and Kate and I, my wife and I were looking at that
• 1:03:18
  Matthew Townsend: and I said, that is some Anglican record keeping right there. This was I
• 1:03:23
  Matthew Townsend: think in the eighteen fifties or something like that. So I would bring people
• 1:03:27
  Matthew Townsend: together, I think, to to think about these things.
• 1:03:32
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 1:03:32
  Matthew Townsend: And to think about how how future and past should be bridged by the
• 1:03:37
  Matthew Townsend: present, which is very hard because we live in an ever present right now.
• 1:03:42
  Matthew Townsend: That's what we're invited into. Into society
• 1:03:48
  Martha Tatarnic: And
• 1:03:49
  Matthew Townsend: we're we're living in and and and the anxiety we've talked about through this
• 1:03:52
  Matthew Townsend: episode, I think that speaks to that. Right.
• 1:03:55
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:57
  Matthew Townsend: We're we're we're we're always worried about what's coming, we're worried we haven't made
• 1:04:03
  Matthew Townsend: the right decisions before, but actually being like on a on a continuum as
• 1:04:09
  Matthew Townsend: Christians who are connected through time and and connected in heaven, you know, that
• 1:04:15
  Matthew Townsend: that feels lost to me. So I'd like to do something.
• 1:04:22
  Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Well that, yeah, the first answer abolished the papacy we have gotten before,
• 1:04:28
  Martha Tatarnic: but the the second part of that answer was unique to you for sure.
• 1:04:35
  Martha Tatarnic: So thank you. Okay, theologian or a historical Christian figure who you would want
• 1:04:41
  Martha Tatarnic: to meet, bring back to life, have a conversation with.
• 1:04:48
  Matthew Townsend: you know what the the George W. Bush answer to this was Jesus, which
• 1:04:51
  Matthew Townsend: is a good answer.
• 1:04:55
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, not bad.
• 1:04:57
  Matthew Townsend: I yeah, I often think about Maximilian Colby,
• 1:05:02
  Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
• 1:05:03
  Matthew Townsend: who is celebrated in the Episcopal Church, I think as well. He's he's cat
• 1:05:06
  Matthew Townsend: he was Catholic.
• 1:05:09
  Martha Tatarnic: Hmm.
• 1:05:10
  Matthew Townsend: because every everybody remembers Bonhoffer being
• 1:05:13
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:13
  Matthew Townsend: martyred in the concentration camps, but But Colby was he was also a martyr
• 1:05:18
  Matthew Townsend: in the concentration camps, but he he volunteered to take someone else's place when
• 1:05:23
  Matthew Townsend: they when they came to exterminate, to them, to to take you for execution.
• 1:05:28
  Matthew Townsend: And and hi in his doing that, another man, a a Polish Jew, I
• 1:05:33
  Matthew Townsend: think, was saved, actually. He had a family. And he that man spent the
• 1:05:38
  Matthew Townsend: rest of his life going around and talking about what happened of having this
• 1:05:43
  Matthew Townsend: man who we didn't even know say, No, no, take me.
• 1:05:48
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:50
  Matthew Townsend: And I think all of us need that kind of thinking, that kind of
• 1:05:54
  Matthew Townsend: being in our lives. so I think I'd I I wouldn't mind buying him
• 1:05:58
  Matthew Townsend: a beer.
• 1:06:03
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. Good a a real witness. I mean that's that's what martyrdom is,
• 1:06:14
  Martha Tatarnic: witness. what are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
• 1:06:26
  Matthew Townsend: Well, I I think as I've noted, I think the world is in a
• 1:06:31
  Matthew Townsend: pretty tough spot. And so I I think the present of Christianity, as well
• 1:06:36
  Matthew Townsend: as its future, needs to be speaking to that but also offering balm. Ministering
• 1:06:41
  Matthew Townsend: to it.
• 1:06:46
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:06:52
  Matthew Townsend: You know, the the future of the churp church is wrapped up in the
• 1:06:58
  Matthew Townsend: future of of us all. You know, we're all we're all going through the
• 1:07:04
  Matthew Townsend: same thing right now. Rapid changes in our world, disturbing changes, a real concern
• 1:07:10
  Matthew Townsend: about our children, our grandchildren, what what will what will come of of them.
• 1:07:16
  Matthew Townsend: So my my hope for the future of the church is that it can
• 1:07:22
  Matthew Townsend: be present in the midst of that, and stable in the midst of that,
• 1:07:28
  Matthew Townsend: and loving in the midst of that. You know, that that the church can
• 1:07:35
  Matthew Townsend: be the church. And so that to me means setting aside a lot of
• 1:07:41
  Matthew Townsend: our anxieties and and recognizing that we have a very particular calling in this
• 1:07:47
  Matthew Townsend: moment. You know, I I hear people talk about the church needing hospice care,
• 1:07:53
  Matthew Townsend: you know, which is sphere in a lot of contexts. Right, you know, where
• 1:07:59
  Matthew Townsend: the church has whittled down to nothing or has s shrunk, has you know,
• 1:08:05
  Matthew Townsend: been left in the dust by secular society. But what if we're all in
• 1:08:11
  Matthew Townsend: hospice together? You know?
• 1:08:18
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, no, I I think that you've absolutely named what keeps me going in
• 1:08:24
  Martha Tatarnic: ministry. Like that is exactly why I keep fighting for the life of the
• 1:08:30
  Martha Tatarnic: church. Is because I like believe at the core of my being that we
• 1:08:37
  Martha Tatarnic: actually do have something to offer in response to the profound desperation, need, anxiety,
• 1:08:43
  Martha Tatarnic: uncertainty, fear. That's the world around us.
• 1:08:50
  Matthew Townsend: Well and it's something we should be good at. You know, because like eschatology
• 1:08:54
  Matthew Townsend: and and Christianity are is is peanut butter and jelly, you know, like we
• 1:08:58
  Matthew Townsend: we should be good at speaking to a world that is ending because the
• 1:09:02
  Matthew Townsend: world has always been ending. You know,
• 1:09:07
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 1:09:07
  Matthew Townsend: I mean it's part of our understanding that all things are passing. And so,
• 1:09:14
  Matthew Townsend: you know, how do we how do we be that? that presence, you know,
• 1:09:21
  Matthew Townsend: that is there for people in in in a good way, you
• 1:09:28
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm-hmm.
• 1:09:29
  Matthew Townsend: know, as as things are are worsening. You know. for me it's been really
• 1:09:33
  Matthew Townsend: interesting being in an Orthodox church. And in a lot of ways Kate sort
• 1:09:38
  Matthew Townsend: of pushed us in that direction, even though I I have Orthodoxy in my
• 1:09:43
  Matthew Townsend: heritage, but I I wasn't raised as such or around it. But you know,
• 1:09:48
  Matthew Townsend: orthodoxy is very old fashioned to say the least. And in ways that are
• 1:09:52
  Matthew Townsend: still uncomfortable for me. but there's a real desire to be anchored in orthodoxy.
• 1:09:57
  Matthew Townsend: We we get a lot of young men, even in Halifax. Orthodoxy, you've probably
• 1:10:02
  Matthew Townsend: heard of ortho bros. Maybe you've talked to some people about them on podcast.
• 1:10:07
  Matthew Townsend: You should.
• 1:10:12
  Martha Tatarnic: No, no we haven't.
• 1:10:15
  Matthew Townsend: It's a very interesting topic, and you'll find people, I think, very willing to
• 1:10:20
  Matthew Townsend: talk about them positively and negatively. But there's a lot of young men who
• 1:10:25
  Matthew Townsend: come from the internet, right? Who are looking for a place where they can
• 1:10:30
  Matthew Townsend: maybe be more conservative. Right. You know. And, you know, our our priest at
• 1:10:36
  Matthew Townsend: our parish, and when he starts off any catechesis, you know, class where people
• 1:10:41
  Matthew Townsend: learn how to become Orthodox. He he begins it by saying, if you've come
• 1:10:46
  Matthew Townsend: here by way of YouTube orthodoxy, you know, or or or internet orthodoxy, that's
• 1:10:51
  Matthew Townsend: great. Now you can stop watching YouTube.
• 1:10:57
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 1:10:58
  Matthew Townsend: You know, you do not need to keep consuming this. You are in church
• 1:11:01
  Matthew Townsend: now. Right. You're gonna be with people. And you're and and I am the
• 1:11:04
  Matthew Townsend: person responsible for helping you understand the church.
• 1:11:08
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 1:11:09
  Matthew Townsend: Amazing. Not not Reddit. Right. You know. And and I think that's that's actually
• 1:11:13
  Matthew Townsend: it's what's interesting in the Orthodox context is that I think can mean de
• 1:11:18
  Matthew Townsend: radicalization for young men, actually. Right, right. Who are coming because the internet is
• 1:11:22
  Matthew Townsend: highly radicalizing. Then
• 1:11:27
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 1:11:30
  Matthew Townsend: You know, you walk into a church with with Russian or Ukrainian or or
• 1:11:35
  Matthew Townsend: Lebanese women and you try to talk to them in a way that's that's
• 1:11:40
  Matthew Townsend: sexist. See what happens. These are not cultures known for meekness among either sex.
• 1:11:45
  Matthew Townsend: Right. so I I I think you know, I I find I do find
• 1:11:50
  Matthew Townsend: something actually quite hopeful in that stability.
• 1:11:55
  Martha Tatarnic: Mm.
• 1:11:56
  Matthew Townsend: And I think we we do need that. You know, the the future of
• 1:12:00
  Matthew Townsend: the church needs a great deal of more more stability than what we've been
• 1:12:05
  Matthew Townsend: seeing. and it needs ministers who will will make note that a person lived
• 1:12:09
  Matthew Townsend: for ten hours.
• 1:12:14
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you.
• 1:12:16
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah. We're w because like that meant something to us as we were standing
• 1:12:21
  Matthew Townsend: there reading that. And e and even though it was the county's historical society
• 1:12:26
  Matthew Townsend: who, you know, had published that, it was an Anglican priest who wrote it.
• 1:12:32
  Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, thank you.
• 1:12:34
  Matthew Townsend: Yeah, so just just bearing witness. being present, being stable. Not not constantly seeking
• 1:12:40
  Matthew Townsend: the new. Because the new things they don't s a lot of them don't
• 1:12:47
  Matthew Townsend: seem so good.
• 1:12:54
  Martha Tatarnic: Hmm. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for our whole conversation. Thank you
• 1:13:00
  Martha Tatarnic: for for those hopeful notes. I I really appreciate that. We always end with
• 1:13:06
  Martha Tatarnic: a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you, Matt.
• 1:13:13
  Matthew Townsend: And also with you.