Latest / Messy Minded Mama / Episode 19 - Can We Talk About The Rage... Again?!

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Episode 19 - Can We Talk About The Rage... Again?! · Messy Minded Mama

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Messy Minded Mama, a podcast for moms who look managed but might feel a bit messy on the inside.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Keith and I'm Jen.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we are here creating space for real talk about motherhood, mental health, and the invisible load so many women carry.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Messy Minded Mama.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're so glad you're here again.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm especially excited about today's episode because it's actually one that you all have been asking us for.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: We released our episode on Mom Rage like very early on when we started recording.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was episode four.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: And after that, after you all listened and tuned into that, we had so many people reach out and say, Can you do a part two?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: So here we are.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're doing part two coming at ya.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: And today isn't gonna be a recap of what we discussed in four.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: We might hit on some of the same things because it's all related, but today's conversation is really to go deeper.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about the parts of rage that I think honestly feel really uncomfortable, right?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: The parts that feel embarrassing, that feel lonely, even I think feel scary.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know for me, reflecting on some of it, it just feels scary to admit some of this stuff out loud.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's the door slamming, right?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's the tears that happen behind that door slam.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's the moments where we maybe dream of an ex an escape, not just think about it, but actually envision that escape.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not because we don't love our kids, we love them more than anything in the world, but it's the rage showing up, right?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's telling us that sometimes we need to shut down, that sometimes we need to cry it out.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we're so overwhelmed, and we often wonder like, what is wrong with me?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what this conversation is about today.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're creating the space for it, we're gonna share our own stories with it.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Some of it might be hard to hear, but it's all for good reason.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's all because we want it to be something that you can relate to, that you can take with you, and that you can realize at the end of the day that you are not alone in this.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we are here with you, we are feeling it just like you are, um, and here just to share our stories.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think it's such an important thing to talk about because it's one of those pieces of motherhood that I know I tend to keep quiet.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily talk about it in the group chat.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a group chat really, but if I had a group chat, I wouldn't talk about it.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't talk about it with my friends out in the open all the time of I just had a really bad mom rage moment.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: I tend to keep them to myself because I'm not proud of how I showed up.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in the situations of mom rage, when we talk about mom rage, when we think about mom rage, when we think about how we acted or the behavior that came out, we focus on the reaction, the snapping or the moment that we wish we had differently.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for me and and probably for a lot of moms, it's actually not that one moment that is the problem.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's the 72 things that happened before I got to that moment.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's the buildup of stimulation, it's the buildup of maybe not feeling heard or feeling sometimes disrespected, yeah, or whatever it might be, feeling rushed, right?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: All the all the inputs that we're having.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I know, and I've said this a few times on the podcast, my rage comes out when I'm overstimulated.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's the noise, it's everyone needing something from me at the exact same time.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: The touching, touching me is a big one.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, doctor.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the dogs bark.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: I just can't do it.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: The the touching, the dogs barking, trying to make dinner, and then hearing mom for the 400th time.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's all of that environmental piece.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe I'm also cycling through 47 browser tabs in my head at the same time while I'm trying to do these things.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so that for me is when I tend to find my rage comes out.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or when I have to repeat myself over and over and over again.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I know you and Tyler talked about you having to ask Jack before a bunch of times and he didn't answer and he didn't respond, but he did for Tyler.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: So frustrating in those moments.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is a daily occurrence, right?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this isn't just a one-off in that moment.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is the life that I live every day of asking my children to do things multiple times before they even act like they heard what I was saying, right?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's it's that piece of not feeling heard, validated, or seen, I think, in that moment that I've never really stopped to think about that in the moment.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel filled with the momster, right?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: The mom range.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel full of that because I'm calm the first time, I'm calm the second time, but by the fifth time of asking someone to put their dang shoes on, it's like, why is no one actually hearing me?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then the reaction that comes out doesn't match the size of the problem.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: My big reaction doesn't match the shoes needing to be put on.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think what's really hard is this idea that they're kids and they're not doing these things on purpose.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that logically, they're not intentionally pushing our buttons.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they are sometimes.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, but they're not intentionally trying to push our buttons.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's they're having an age-appropriate moment, perhaps, or maybe they're just preoccupied with something else, but my nervous system is on fire saying I cannot handle one more thing.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think this is the place where we have to change the conversation to from why am I such an angry mom, why am I such an angry person, because we're not typically, to what was happening before I got to that moment.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's interesting when you talk about kind of the age-appropriate reaction.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when we start to think about what rage actually looks like and how it comes out, then it often can feel, I think, for us as moms, that our reaction isn't age-appropriate, right?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: We shouldn't be behaving this way, we shouldn't be acting this way.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: But when we do really step back and start to think of all the ways, all the things that are leading up to it, like you said, everything that we talked about these building blocks last time we did rage, but it's like all the building blocks that get us to that point, and our body being so overstimulated and dysregulated, right, in those moments that our responses don't necessarily feel age appropriate, but they are what we need in those moments to get that sense of relief, right?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: To be able to truly um let it out at that point in time.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: What do those I know for me my reaction tends to happen quickly, which it doesn't internally necessarily like it feels like it happens quick, like there's a quick trigger.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: But again, when we're when we're pausing and thinking about it now to all these things we're building, it doesn't feel quick in that sense.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I know that in the moment I feel like I go from can you please put your shoes on to put your shoes on from zero to 60.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what does that look like for you?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: That reaction period, that reaction time.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's rage is not just yelling, right?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: It can be crying, it can be like body language of tensing.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does what does it look like for you in those moments?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, so for me, it very much depends on the time of day.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I we've talked about like morning madness before.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: I am not a morning person.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if if I wake up on the wrong side of the bed, or if my kids wake up on the wrong side of their bed and we are up kind of with like this mood that is already starting our day off, kind of in maybe a more negative place, then my reaction, I have like a much shorter um leash that I'll give them, right?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like I cannot, my patience is shorter, I am just not ready for my day yet.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is pre-coffee gen, this is just getting out of bed, waking up to my children and like whatever mood is starting our day.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: So mornings aren't great in my house.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I typically find if I reflect back over all the years as being a mom so far, the times when my rage was maybe the highest, or the times that it has come out the quickest, the times that when I reflect back on are the hardest for me to reflect back on, I can point most of it to morning time and just not being in a good headspace or kind of ready for what's coming to me.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's very quick.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: If I fast forward later on in my day, I'm usually in just a different headspace, right?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm usually more um ready for whatever comes at me.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm usually just like in a happier mood, to be honest.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like afternoon evenings are kind of my like happy place, and where I'm just kind of settling into like life as a mom, picking up the kids from their day, whatever that looks like.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very much for me related to kind of time of day and where is my patience at that time has been my experience so far.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I find that interesting of the morning is hard and morning madness, all of the chaos of trying to get the kids out the door, get their shoes on, get their backpack.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, as we've talked about, it can be a fight for you to try to get them out of the door, which can also feel really frustrating.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the complete opposite.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, mornings are hard, and I definitely have the like get your shoes on.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And this morning in particular was one of those mornings where I was like, Am I even speaking the same language as you in this moment?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've asked you to get out of bed five times.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I'm like, hey, you need to get out of bed a little more sternly, yeah.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I'm in trouble now.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, right.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't say you were in trouble, I just asked you a little more sternly because we need to actually move.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I find my patience wears thinner towards the end of the day because I'm processing all the things that happened through the day and the stimulation, trying to make dinner, the kids want to play, they want to tell me about their day.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I don't really make dinner, but I'm trying to like get the table set.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: But but those pieces, I'm trying to do all the life human pieces, and that's where I think my capacity tends to like hit its breaking point.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And as much as I hate to admit this out loud, I can be a yeller, and that's really hard for me to say out loud and to settle with internally.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but mine comes out in tears and it comes out in yelling.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it definitely doesn't make me feel proud of that in any capacity, but that's just how it comes out.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, sometimes it's zero to 60 where it's out of my mouth before I even had time to think about what it was.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it for you it comes out in yelling, but also these other things, right?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when we go back and we really talk about rage and all the ways that it can show up, and wanting really today to normalize that, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: It can come out in so many different ways.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And one might be like the go-to for someone, right?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And a good signal of this is a moment.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I am I am full of rage, right?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: The monster is here.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: But what do other things look like?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I know door slamming's on the list, right?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like the crying is on the list, crying uncontrollably is on the list.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Snapping over those tiny things.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but fantasizing about the escape, right?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: About being able to kind of get away, drive away.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that need to withdraw.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a big one for me too.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was just telling you before we hit record about I I literally took an extra half a mile, maybe walk back to our house after a moment because I needed to withdraw.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: I needed the space.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I didn't want to yell.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I also just needed to be alone.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's a normal reaction too when you're filled with emotion and and each person, you can have a combination of all these ones, right?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: We but and they come out at different times, and they're hard to admit sometimes of like I need space to not be with my child.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: That one brings up a lot of emotions for people.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean you love them any less, but it's not bad.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we need we need that space sometimes in that time.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think spending another minute on that, like when we think about escape, when we think about withdrawing and what that looks like, I think the thought that can come to people's minds sometimes, and I think the scary thought is that I want to disappear.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think trying to put some more context around that because disappear doesn't mean I want to go away forever, right?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: It means that I wish someone else would step in and maybe take on more for me, right?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to do bedtime tonight because I'm capped out, right?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I have I'm at my capacity, I need someone else to step in.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: I want to check into a hotel because I dream of a night where I can just like have sushi and a glass of wine and watch a rom-com, maybe, and like wake up whenever I choose to wake up the next day.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think trying to normalize some of that too, of wanting to disappear, wanting to withdraw, needing that, it's not a shameful act, it's not a shameful thought.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that, again, is your mind, your body telling you something is putting me at capacity.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if I really thought about this, like I need some escape.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then what does that escape look like?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it can be really small, right?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And small moments.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Your little half a mile extra walk didn't take you long, but it was the escape that you needed, and I'm sure it put you in a much better mindset, you know, once you got back and you had that time to kind of give yourself what you needed.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and I know I I had told you the story, but for context, of we were walking back and my oldest was pushing our wagon, which had my youngest in it, and some of our stuff from the beach, and um, she was pushing it, and she started to go off the path a little bit, which then she's there's a hill that goes towards the lake, and so she started to go down that a little bit, and I I grabbed the wagon to course correct, put the wagon back up there, and she was like, Oh my god, I guess I just won't push anything, right?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And she was expressing her frustration, but it elevated mine, yeah, because I wasn't trying to take something away from her, and for that to be her default, hit me in a different way.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So then my emotions were rising, and then because it was just a perfect storm cloud of things, a skateboarder was coming up on the path behind us and not really paying attention was coming up quick.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I grabbed her to move her out of the way, and then she just got furious, which again escalated me because she's like, Why did you do that?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you grab me?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm just trying to walk.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I can't do anything.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I literally am just trying to protect you.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so in that moment, I I had a combination of feelings that are again hard to talk about.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Of I just grabbed my kid, and I don't ever love doing that.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I was trying to protect her, but in her mind, I was doing something wrong, and that stirred up a lot of emotions.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like my husband was talking to me, she was crying slash whining at me, my other kiddown was singing a song while we were going, and it's like all that input plus the feelings.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wanted to disappear and I wanted to scream all at the same time of like, I'm just trying to protect you.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I just need to be alone because I felt so many emotions.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so I did take a I told I told my husband, I said, I need a minute, I need to be away, and so I walked a different way home because I I had to have that space.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was a really like normal thing that can happen, yep, but it brought up so many emotions, yeah.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I love how you're describing like this perfect storm, right?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: It was like one thing gone wrong, and then you trying to help, and then another thing, and then trying to help, and the perfect storm of like these things coming together.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I also I'm hearing you say, like, grab my kid, and don't love doing that.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can think of so many times where trying to get them off the playground, right?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or trying, um, you know, just to leave the house, or they're making a scene in a store multiple times of like grabbing my kid and grabbing them like a little extra two tight, and then then being like, Oh, you hurt me, or saying something, and then immediately being filled with like the grabbing the child came from this like red hot feeling in my body, right?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like the rage was there that they're not listening or they're not doing what I need them to, or I'm embarrassed by their behavior.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it came out in this way that again immediately filled with this shame in the moment, but this guilt around why did I do that?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Why did I let this red hot feeling in my body turn into something that was not what I'm proud of?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And normalizing like that, your body is reacting in a way that it feels like it needs to, and then trying to figure out how to take that back a little bit, right?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or like calm yourself down in those moments.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we've talked before about sometimes the kids' voice and then telling us out loud what that did to them, then does kind of allow us to like, okay, I need to take that deep breath, I need to calm down, and it's a good signal for us, but it still comes with like the guilt and the shame of doing it in the first place, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's important what you just said of guilt and shame because we use them interchangeably a lot as humans and as moms, but for me and in our therapy headspace, they actually have different meanings.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think learning more about those and is it guilt or is it shame showing up can be really powerful.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because guilt is, and and please, you know, chime in as as you feel.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: But the way that I tend to explain guilt versus shame is guilt is I'm not proud of how something happened.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not proud of how I showed up.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I maybe wanted to handle something different, so I feel guilty about it.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Where shame is the internal piece, yeah, shame is the spiral.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Shame is something about ourselves that we don't like, or that we are telling a narrative to ourselves about who we are as humans.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: That intrinsic I told you words were hard.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: That internal side, I'm not, I'm just gonna change my word I'm using.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: That internal side that we we really start to spiral in, and then it gives us a negative perception because we're telling ourselves a story about who we are, like our values.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I like you said, we use it so interchangeably.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just did.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I still do that all the time.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I think when you can reframe some of those thoughts and truly just recognize that it's not about the shame, it's not something that is wrong with me and this thing that I can't change, right?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: But when you truly do say, I feel guilty about this, it's okay to accept guilt.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay to voice it, it's okay to acknowledge it.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I do agree if you can kind of stay away from the shame side and just focus on the guilt, and what do you need to do to release that?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: What do you need to do to repair that with those around you, right?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: If need be, um, I think all of that can be a little more freeing and allow it just to live um like moments in time, right?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And not be something that feels true to you.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: When we talk about I'm not an angry mom, right?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just a mom that has is having a moment.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think that allows us to kind of shift um and reframe some of this too.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: It does, it's not who I am, it's something that is happening in this moment.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think naming it's a huge thing.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we've talked about that before too.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have literally sat in this exact spot having a moment.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't even about my kids, it was about something else.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: The day just wasn't going the way that I wanted it to.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to stop and say, it's just a bad moment.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't deter, like doesn't uh determine my whole day.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just a bad moment, it's not a bad day.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think if we can take that practice into when we start to tell ourselves narratives about who we are as moms, I'm a bad mom because I yelled.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a bad mom because I went and cried in the bathroom or cried in my car because I had feelings.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Feelings are what makes us human.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Emotion is what makes us human.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, naming it for what it was, it was a hard moment.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Not that we're bad parents or bad moms or yeah, bad humans.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, here you're talking about crying.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the crying.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about crying, Jen.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: The crying that nobody sees, the crying that everybody sees, what comes along with it.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I heard you say earlier, Kate, that it's like I I'm a I'm a yeller sometimes, right?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like when that rage comes out, then I tend to yell, but then I also tend to cry.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious, your experiences when you think about rage and connecting kind of those two together in those moments, like how does that show up for you?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think I mean, I my eyes water at every emotion, whether I'm happy, whether I'm sad, whether I'm mad, whatever.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: My eyes are watering, but I sometimes will full on sob because I'm so mad or I'm so filled with emotion that I just don't really know what.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: To do.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's it just feels stuck.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm stuck in this this emotion space.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um there is a book that talks about being stuck in a tunnel of emotion.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that is what happens a lot of time with this rage is that I can feel it in my body.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: My body goes tense.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: I want to scream or I want to cry because I need to move it out.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I can't scream, because it's not always appropriate to scream and I don't want to be screaming at people, but sometimes I just need to move it.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that moving it looks like crying.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times I will go to my car and cry, or I will, when I was a kid, I used to sit in the bottom of my closet and cry.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was my space.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: That was like a safe space.
• 22:49
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was a safe space.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I can't sit in the bottom of my closet now.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but having a space where I felt I could move some of the emotion out in some fashion.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I have also cried in front of my kids when I just feel so overwhelmed, overstimulated, or or rageful.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's not typically rage, it's what's underneath the rage that comes out as rage.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've cried in front of them and I've just tried to normalize it for them of I'm having a lot of feelings.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm feeling really frustrated and I'm feeling really overwhelmed.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's coming out as crying, and mommy just needs a minute.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I try to name the emotions.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not perfect at it.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I have to cry for a while before I'm ready to talk about it.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And my kids are like, what's wrong?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna be like, Well, I'm mad because you didn't listen.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm and so I just say, I need a minute, and then we can talk.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I try to reassure them the best I can because they're not actually again what caused it.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a reaction to all the underlying things.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: But it definitely comes out crying.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a big, we've talked about this before, big believer in movement.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes I need a walk, sometimes I need a kitchen dance party, sometimes I need to like scream and I'll go scream in a pillow.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I can't always catch it right away, right?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: We said it's zero to 60.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes I cry in front of my kids, sometimes I will say grown-up words, as we call them in our house.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because I have to, I have to move it.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think everything you're describing, I'm hearing like your body is screaming for relief, right?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: In some way, shape, or form.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it does come on quick because it feels like I don't have the tools to lean into or I don't have the capacity to even like understand what's happening to me right now.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I would argue that crying is a healthy tool, right?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that being able to have that release, being able to get that out, can be such a good way to be able to reset, to slow down, right?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: To calm ourselves down.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like once you get that out, then you can actually sit with the emotions a little bit more, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: You can actually understand it and like take those kind of deep breaths to get through that.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: What does it look like for you?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's funny, you talk about crying for your kids.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Jack actually told me, I think last week, like, I've never seen you cry.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, like sad tears.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's like, you cry when you read letters or cards or whatever.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I've never seen you cry, sad tears.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And in my mind, I was like, Oh, you must have just forgotten all the times.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think maybe there's some truth to that because I don't know that I often do cry in front of them.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: But when we when we think about me crying kind of and separating myself, typically going back to rage and like the full-on rage moments for me that I am that are hard to reflect on.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think back on toddler years for either one of my kids in our house, mornings, like I said, in particular, but something setting me off and then door slamming immediately before crying.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: So for me in my house, it's not just like one door slam, it's two.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I will I have vivid memories.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a little bit since this has happened for me, but going to my room, slamming that main room door, and then going into my bathroom in my room, slamming that door because for whatever reason I needed two, but it felt like I was just trying to get like as far away as I could.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was trying to distance myself from the quote unquote problem at the time, which is also in a lot of ways a healthy tool, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not staying there and being rageful in that moment.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm recognizing something needs to change.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm slamming the doors, I'm going to then my bathroom or maybe my closet, like furthest to get in distance I can put between me and the problem, and then just crying.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the cry is because of my lack of ability in those moments to handle it, right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: But also just like the stimulation, like overstimulation of what was happening in that moment that led me to that point.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And being like, I am exhausted.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm exhausted for probably a number of reasons in that moment.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And just sitting alone and crying in my bathroom or my closet.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Not proud of the door slamming, but those are real things that needed to happen.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't trying to scare anyone, I wasn't trying to hurt anyone.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Again, going back to nervous system, like my body was screaming for some relief.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that door slam was a way for me to let out some of that anger.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And again, what feels like a healthier way, because I'm not harming anyone.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to scare anyone.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just doing what I needed to in those moments.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, not proud moments, I think, to look back on.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think I have one week in particular where I think I probably did it five days in a row, all in the morning.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: But something was happening to my nervous system at that point in time that I needed to let it out.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how it came out.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: I and I think what you said is really important that mom rage and the rate or the rage, the feelings that we feel are the invisible becoming visible.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's the everything we're carrying, every emotion, every task can feel so overwhelming.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we carry it a lot of times invisibly until we can't.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that capacity piece.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's these feelings becoming visible, and us having to find ways to do something with it because we can't just let it sit, right?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Then we get stuck in that, and then we continue to show up in a way that we maybe don't want to because we're not processing through it.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I said it earlier, and I'll say it again.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Emotion is what makes us human, and moms are allowed to be human.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally, and and recognizing, I think, in that piece of it, why it's happening in the first place, right?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there is so much going on there and so much leading up to it, and it doesn't mean we always know in that moment, but it's like the mental load we carry, lack of sleep.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about sleep a lot in you know, in these episodes of what lack of sleep does to us, and not just one night, but when you stack up multiple nights, like what that can do.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Decision fatigue, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Never fully being off.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think sensory overload, you talk about being touched out, like yes, the touching.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: There is so much that goes into why these emotions are coming up, being very human, being very real, but again, our nervous system saying, like, I can't carry one more thing.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I need a break and I need to figure that out.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to better listen to our nervous system in those moments and then figure out what that break looks like.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just thinking out loud on like a list of what are the things that we could share today that are helpful and healthier escapes and how we actually do this for ourselves.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: I heard you talk about movement earlier, and that's a big one for you, and being able to feel like you can regulate.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think movement is is something that's pretty key for me.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, used to be running back when I ran a lot.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's dancing, it can be like doing push-ups.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I actually had a client tell me that they do jumping jacks sometimes because they just have to move it out, walking, some just something physical because they don't want it to get stuck.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that I feel that in my soul of I don't want that feeling to just get stuck in there.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I think movement can be really key.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's a lot of talk, and I and I believe in it with breathing.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think what's really hard about breathing or other types of of regulation like that is if you are heightened, if you are at the top of your escalation, you are in that peak, breathing isn't going, you can't rationalize with yourself in those moments.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have to be able to find a space between that zero to 60, which can be really hard before you hit peak to interrupt it for some of these tools to work.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are at that as that, you know, top of the mountain of that feeling, how can we get from there down to a place where we can maybe rationalize with ourselves, where we can talk to ourselves and regulate?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't know if you've ever tried to talk or negotiate with a toddler, but sometimes that's how it feels when I'm trying to negotiate with myself or talk to myself when I am so escalated.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: I can't break through.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where the movement can be really helpful to release some of the energy before I can then focus on my breathing.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or do um, I really like the progressive muscle relaxations because I already can feel tension in my body, and so purposely tensing up different parts of my body and trying to release it has been really really helpful for me too.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: And outside, like I have to be the sunshine, be outside and try to.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I like the again, you have to be down from the peak, but the 54321 senses.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that is one of my favorites to re-ground myself into being present of where I am and not being like seeing red.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I love that one too.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: I use it more for like panic and panic attacks in my past, but I think definitely can just really reset your system, help you stay grounded in where you're at.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And for anyone that's not familiar with that, we'll share that in the show notes today.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: The thing that comes to mind for me, it when I think about rage, I do kind of go back to my toddler um years with my kids, but thinking about even just some of the brand new moms that I've been working with lately and how taxing that can be in those early days, and especially sleep deprivation, all the things we've talked about that can lead up to that.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to think about some tools that are really helpful in those moments too.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think 54321 is a great one that anyone can use there.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think about some of the things we've been talking about in some of my therapy groups lately is you can hold your crying baby, inconsolable baby, and put headphones on with music or something to try to shift your energy and your mindset to something that feels more relaxing versus hearing the baby cry or tagging your partner in, right?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: If your partner's home and available and all the things, then obviously being able to tag them in.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: But there's there's so many ways that, and I think we could even share a list right after this of just like easy, simple ways.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Do what works for you, do what helps in that moment, get creative with it, right?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've talked about notice it, right?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Name what's happening, kind of figure that piece out.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: But then once you have, then how can you kind of escape from it and provide yourself that break that your body's telling you that you need?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love all of those ideas and putting the headphones on.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've said this before, overstimulation is a pretty big trigger for me.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: So finding ways to turn down the volume on the stimulus, and sometimes again, sitting in the bottom of my closet was that for me.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: But headphones of blocking out some of the noise.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's um a different type of headphones that, uh, or not headphones, but like earbuds that you can get that help filter out some noise, those are great.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: And those have helped me a lot with stimulation.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: But also tapping in your partner, I think, was a really important one that you said because asking for help is how we can sustain.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and that can be from a partner, that can be from a friend, it can be like someone that we can say, I need five minutes, or I need an hour.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and to allow ourselves that permission to say, I need some support without feeling like again, the shame spiral that we are not good moms because we need a minute to ourselves.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think uh highlighting asking for help, maybe now we can shift a little bit into like when does rage become something that we should pay more attention to?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're in this space trying to normalize that anger is a normal human emotion.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: It does not mean you're a bad mom.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: It um is a a normal way for you to be able to show up sometimes.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to be able to show up authentically us, right?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be able to let those things out and have those emotions.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I think the times that it becomes more intense, the times that I'm feeling like it's I'm on all the time in like this high alert way, and this um, you know, more on edge sort of way, those are the times where it feels like, okay, something bigger is going on here.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: I need to figure out what's underneath it, what's causing it, and then I need to figure out what support I need to kind of help me through that.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and support can look so many different ways, we know.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually had a thought as we were talking about this.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one, two thoughts.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: One, anger is not or rage is not typically the first emotion we feel when when we get to that point, but it's the loudest.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's the one that comes out in full force.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second thing I had, which you've talked a lot about on here too, and and I have a little bit, but anxiety.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times I have found that in situations where I may be anxious, a lot of times I am triggered more quickly because I'm already heightened through my anxiety and then I am quicker to react in a way that I'm not proud of or react, have a have a big reaction to something that may look like rage, but really it's because my nervous system was already being hyper-vigilant, it was already scanning for things, and so it was kind of primed to react.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know for me, my anxiety is a lot of times one of the underlying things and something that I have to actively check in with myself about like I know I'm anxious, so what do I need to do to interrupt again before I hit that peak?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think anxiety or depression can be present here, right?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: So when I think about perinatal mood disorders, and depending on where you're at, kind of in your journey, if that's true, going back to the ideas of like when to actually seek support, I think it's if your rage is feeling uncontrollable, right?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you're afraid, if you're scaring yourself in a way, right?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you're afraid of how you're reacting, those are clear indicators of something else might be going on and when to reach out for support.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Rage can happen at any time to anyone, right?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: It will and it does all the time.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I think just trying to give clear signals of like if this is happening, if this is where you're at right now, there are ways to be able to get some support around this and to be able to make yourself feel better.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, we're all human and we all want to feel like we can be our best selves in these moments.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Getting help, getting support, whether it's through your partner, whether it's through a friend, whether it's through therapy, whatever that looks like, there are ways to be able to get that to kind of help navigate some of this.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're local, Jen and I are both therapists here in Colorado.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not, I think there's a lot of options for therapy.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: And finding the way that works for you for therapy.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Jen offers walk and talk, which I think can feel different than coming into an office and sitting toe-to-toe with somebody, because that can feel hard for some people.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And virtual can feel different.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: So finding a therapist that that has something that connects to you in the way that you may want to try is really important.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: I also want to highlight that, and Jenna and I might be biased about this, but coming to therapy because you're having emotions doesn't mean something's wrong with you.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to have something wrong with you or be in crisis all the time to seek out therapy.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: It could just be I need a little bit of support.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that support again can look like therapy.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: It can look like finding some community to talk about these things with.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can also message me and Jen if you just need to vent for a minute.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're here.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: But but building community, I think, is one way that we can normalize some of all these feelings that we have.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the the reason that we're here talking about this, the reason like we preach kind of the signals of when you might need support and the support that's available is because we're so passionate about this.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because we are living proof of two moms here that have experienced it all, have gone to therapy ourselves, right?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Are working on ourselves through this and are wanting to provide the space uh for moms to feel like they're not alone in it and that they have a place that they can turn to in whatever way that looks like for you.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we again want you to hear loud and clear that a hard parenting moment where you maybe showed up in a way that you didn't want to, or maybe you cried, or you yelled, or you felt the need to disappear and withdraw and all of those things, that doesn't erase the times that you read a bedtime story or gave a hug, or you showed up, or you apologized and repaired, or you made your child feel safe and loved, because what they're seeing is how to model having emotions, but how to repair when we don't necessarily show up the way we want, and so it you are still a good mom.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're not letting one moment define you, you're letting your kids learn that imperfection is okay, that we're humans and we have big feelings, just like they have big feelings, and sometimes they come out before we can catch them, and you're showing them that that's part of being a human, but then you're also showing them how you show up afterwards, and I think that's really important.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think with that, Kate, I think that's our like closing affirmation today, is the reminder again, because it's so important to hear, it's so important to take it to heart and to soak it all in that you are a good mom.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, that is it.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Period.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: You are a good mom.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're a good mom.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: We are so happy to have been able to come talk about this.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it wasn't easy to talk about some of the ways that we've shown up, but we hope that it helps normalize for any of you that may feel that you're having these hard parenting moments and that we're here for you.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: And coming up, we're working on what our next few episodes are going to look like, but having some of these conversations too that might be hard to talk about, but normalize motherhood, some fun ones coming up.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: We have some real moms with real stories coming up.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: So stay tuned.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, you can message us Instagram at messi.minded dot mama.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let us know what you want to hear, or you can send us it's called fan mail through uh Spotify, BuzzSprout.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think Apple Podcast has it too, where you can send us a message because we really do like hearing from you.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks for being with us today, and we will see you next time.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being here with us today.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: If something in this episode resonated, we're really glad you listened.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Messy minded or not, you're not alone in this, and you don't have to have it all figured out.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you'd like to stay connected, you can follow Messy Minded Mama wherever you listen to podcasts.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: And follow us on Instagram at messy.minded.mama.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back to connect again soon.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.