Latest / The Backdrop Podcast / Episode 3 - Paul Grinnall, 35 Year Global Events Industry Veteran

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Episode 3 - Paul Grinnall, 35 Year Global Events Industry Veteran · The Backdrop Podcast

• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the backdrop.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Our next guest has had a tremendous influence on the events and entertainment landscape, not only across the Middle East, but internationally as well.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: With more than 35 years of global experience, he's helped shape some of the region's most ambitious attractions, events, and destinations.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: From transforming global village into a$120 million powerhouse to leading landmark projects such as Riad Oasis and Imagination Park, his work has consistently pushed the boundaries of what's possible in live experiences.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: His portfolio spans world-class sporting events, including Formula E and the Duck Car Rally, major concerts, television, film, sports management, and digital transformation.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Beyond delivery, he's also played an important role in shaping policy and industry development through collaboration and with governments and engagement with both British and European parliamentary institutions.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Known for combining commercial vision with operational excellence and for championing sustainability and inclusivity, he's successfully led organizations ranging from fast-growing startups to major international enterprises.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: So now please join me in welcoming our next guest, Paul Grinnall.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Paul, thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: It really, really is a treat to have you here.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're doing okay?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: How's everything?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, firstly, thank you very much for inviting me, Michael.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasure to have you.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, over the last few weeks, few months, it's been quite a challenge.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we we've had to really rethink how we do things.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, innovate, innovate, innovate, pivot, and innovate again.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if that doesn't work, pivot and innovate some more.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So uh ultimately it's been really quite exhausting.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, this is the environment we're in.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's unfortunate because we've we've had to put a few things back, but everything is racing forward now.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: I see a lot of activity happening over the summer, which typically is a quiet time.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: But when you, you know, when when we get back to this, you know, what we want to do here is we want to we want to sort of, I guess, educate, but we want to get people sort of behind the scenes on what makes events tick from from all sides.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: You've seen every side of it, and you've seen it not just here, you've seen it internationally, um, in all of its forms.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: But probably the most powerful thing is the storytelling aspect.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, from your perspective, when is storytelling genuinely powerful?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: When is it real?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when is it just sort of on the surface to to appeal to to some sort of optics that are in play at the at the time?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, storytelling really is it's at its most powerful.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, when it's relevant and emotional, and and you get a real connection with it.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, the word storytelling is is being really overused because a lot of the time it's a euphemism for content and simple basic output, not a consideration of a journey.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and those touch points that your guests go through way out when the event is announced, that's when the storytelling starts.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's the greatest stories in the world.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember it when I was at school having to do uh creative writing.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: There was a beginning, a middle, and an end.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes we find ourselves in situations where uh an activity is launched and that's all that matters.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's that vertical pillar of the moment in time when the guest arrives, rather than considering way out when you that you first announce it, what it is that you want them to feel, how you want them to uh react to not just the activity as a whole, but all those interactive points where they get to see specific uh ideas, specific exhibits, specific interactions, and all of those uh connections need to be considered.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and you have to spin, and not in a negative way, but a really good story that uh guides people through what it is that you're delivering and brings them out the other end with a real connection to what it is that you've wanted to do.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so storytelling isn't just about clipped sound bites or nano messaging uh and and social media output, it's about the journey from the moment that somebody sees your first advertisement or promo piece to the moment they arrive, to the moment they go through it, and the moment that they come out of that experience, and how you interact with them after that as well.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: And developing the community.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: But this needs to be curated and thought through uh rather than reactive.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, that's that's that's a very good point because we talk about the storytelling, which is a critical, critical and vital element of any event and uh in in one form or another.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: But you really nailed it when you talk about when you're talking about the expectation of experience, the experiential, sorry, the experience economy um really is a big part of the events industry now is and that is really a huge burden put on a lot of events organizers, a lot of brands, um, a lot of stakeholders, where you're not just telling a story, you're also providing something that is a true experience that they're gonna walk away from and talk about.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully come the year after, hopefully follow it around like a Grateful Dead concert, um, you know, from from place to place, because they really got something out of it from the storytelling part, from the content part, from um, you know, from the the ideas and the information they're gonna get, but it's the experience, you know.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you see that change over the years of all the years you've been in?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: How do you see the change and that expectation uh put on the organizers to create something that is a true experience?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: How has that changed over the years for you?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: People don't attend events any longer to gather information.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they they they want personal engagement.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um they want to have interactivity at an emotional level.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're very discerning now.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the you know, you've got much shorter attention spans, you know, what with uh short form uh broadcasts, uh TikToks, reels on Facebook and so forth.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also they're being in absolutely inundated with impulse input.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the attention to anything is naturally becoming a lot shorter.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And if it doesn't feel authentic or somebody feels that they can engage with it, whether it is a cultural experience, an entertainment one, or an educational environment, all these activities can be made much more fun by creating the um exhibit in a more engaging and entertaining way.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there was uh an exhibit, I think it was in Washington, that was uh all about telecommunications, and they had um, I think it was um uh an interactivity with either Marconi or Alexander Graham Bell, um, where you could pick the phone up and you could have a conversation with them.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it was it was AI-generated and LL, but the beauty of that was you learned something in a more fun way.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so as a result, you walked away from that.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: You had passive education, but you also had a great memory because you got to know stuff in a much more enjoyable way.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you'll never forget it.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it'll stick with you.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm I'm glad you mentioned Marconi and and and Alexander Granbell, shameless plug.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm from Cape Breton Island, where they both lived.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a Marconi station there, and of course, Badek.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I won't go into that.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: But before the experience, you've got to get people there, you know.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you get people there?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Those campaigns um that are uh, you know, need to be well planned out, targeting the right people, the right demographic.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So to get people there, the campaigns that you've seen run, where where are the mistakes?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: We can talk about the success stories, but I think it's probably more valuable to find out where many groups and organizations go wrong with their campaigns for an event.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: An event, not just a conference, not just a sporting event, not just a concert or a festival.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: It just in general, uh to to bring people in to experience that that uh that event itself.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Many people in those different disciplines and different industries will always say to you, ah, but it's different in life.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I have the belief that except for subtlety, they're all pretty much the same.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And essentially, it's the strategy, the objective, and the planning.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of client organization are in such a rush to get the vertical aspect of their plan, which is it's an event, so we're not thinking about much else.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the teams within those organizations then tend to get quite focused on what the leadership teams directives are to deliver.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: And what I've experienced is there seems to be a great rush to get it done.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a there's an old expression, good, fast, or cheap, choose two.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where it it kind of trips up because you cannot think of delivering anything unless you've considered uh your digital marketing, your above-the-line marketing, your uh data capture, and the analysis of that data.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you cannot consider anything unless you've thought about uh weird things like zone Q, which is the area from which is somebody's threshold, their doorstep, the journey they have from there to your doorstep.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of events have fallen foul because uh the facilities to get there, whether they be public transport or roads, are uh uh complex and cumbersome.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Even if they're walking to from point A to point B, the journey that they take there, is there any collateral uh on the out-of-home advertising sites that brings them all together in their mindset and emotion to where it is that they're going.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, this journey has to be considered, and this is what I was saying about the storytelling.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, we we're not writing scripts for movies, what we're trying to do is create a journey where people go from their sofas to your venue and have a complete connection with what it is that you're gonna provide them when they get there, and ensuring that then, all the way through your activity, that storytelling is is connected.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And even after that, when you've done your pre-event marketing and and your and your digital promotion and you've built community on social media platforms, that you're still communicating with them, that you are maintaining the relationship for as long as you can after the time that they went there.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Keep that tether.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's vitally important that it isn't just about the delivery of the action, yeah, it's about the connection and the very first step pre-during and post.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and many organizations are just all about the during.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: And they forget that opportunity, which means they miss an awful lot of opportunities to their benefit.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: They don't rinse it out enough.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: When we, you know, we talk about the the campaigns and and how to build them up, or whether whether you're delivering uh a proposal for a bid for a large-scale event like Expo or COP or Special Olympics or any of these, when do we start sort of pitching less on resource-laden elements and more on creating something more creative?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do we start getting away from the resource side and getting more into the creative side where we're not focused on you know commercial practicality for everything or resource practicality for everything?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: But we're thinking out, I don't like say thinking outside the box.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's a little bit cliche, but in that way, how can we how can we sort of become a little more creative in our thinking?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Time.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: The clients need to give the agencies and the vendors involved more time and better greater clarity.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I oftentimes I've had an RFP, sometimes it can be as little as a paragraph, and sometimes it can be quite complex, but only on the technical and operational side, and and the gaps between which is where the creativity and and the wow factor that they are seeking isn't communicated clearly.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I know exactly what you mean.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I and uh sometimes there's not enough information, but time really is critical.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and we know that we've all had the RFPs where when when does the event take place?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's next month.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Come on, you know, I mean forget the fact that sales and marketing need a real lead time to be able to make it successful, to bring in the right partners and and to bring in the right funding and all of that.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I I think you're uh you you hit the nail on the head.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: It really does require more time.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but the creativity, let me ask you.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the creativity is is something that is usually with the client.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they don't, unless they're specializing in an agency that is creative.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes if it is an event agency, they'll retain the creative thinking within the stakeholder and say, you know, we we want to do it this way or do it that way.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the technical side, as you mentioned, that's your share.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: The heavy lifting part with the technical, the look and feel and logistics and operations, that's you.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: How are you gonna do it?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: But from the creative side, sometimes there's not enough given to maybe an agency.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'll contradict you slightly, sure, if I may.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: The event, the gig, the conference, whatever anecdotal title one wants to use.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: That is proprietorial to the client.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: They should know what they want, they should know what they want to see.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they have a much clearer idea of their business than anyone else.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yet time and again I've been asked to provide an entire concept.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: What I've done in more recent years, and technology's really contributed to this, is in in the more analogue days, I'd get a napkit, I'd get a piece of paper, and I'd sketch.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: So is that what you mean?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're looking for?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now with technology, I've been able to produce an image pretty rapidly.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's a concert, I can create very fast uh a stage, a set design, um, even to the point where the um mixing desks go for the sound engineers, what the audience areas would look like, what the um l assets could be positioned on for sponsors and commercial relationships.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: And all of that comes out in one master image.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then out of that, you can either you get a checkpoint, yes, that's what was in my mind.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or no, can you alter it?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Quickly do that.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Then you say, okay, that picture matches what the vision in my head was.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then that gives you a really good jumping off point because with that image, you can then start drilling down into BOQs, SOPs, um, SOWs.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you start building your technical and operational list of what you're gonna need, as well as where the opportunities are commercially and how the marketing teams can engage and build out a campaign based on that.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it won't look the same by delivery, yeah, but it near as damn it will.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: However, when you're not in that situation, a lot of clients push onto the agency a demand to guess what's in my imagination.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and what that does is puts a lot of pressure on the creative content ideation.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, creating an operational plan and a technical requirement, I don't want to undermine it.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not simple, but it's easier because it's an ABCD process by and large.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: But to create the image and the look of what it is that you want to have when you pull the curtain back, that's a lot of man hours.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I should say person hours goes into building that, often with little direction from the client, um, and a whole lot of guesswork, hours and cost.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're averaging 35,000, 40,000 dirhams of pitch, yeah, and you're throwing mud at the wall.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's not enough collaboration.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now, a part of that's because of the ways that the organizations work, which is your contact point doesn't always have the authority to make decisions when they have to refer up.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: So then you're you're getting a plan looked at by somebody who's no emotional connection to it whatsoever.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're right.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the challenge is getting more collaboration out of the client and them giving you, as I said earlier, more of their time for you to bounce back suggestions.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's done in the way that I suggested with let's produce an image real fast and then modify and enhance that, you're working from an agreed picture from the outset.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then that gives you a lot more assurance that both you and the client are gonna get the gig and deliver what they want with a lot less adversarial relationship.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: I agree completely.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: I and I think my point at the beginning was really just the fact that the stakeholders know their business better than anybody else.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: The ones that you know, the ones in control, the ones that are you know dominating the positioning and the messaging of what they want.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I I get that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: They they have an End result in mine.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: But the shaping of it, the creative shaping of it is many times the reason why they go to an agency because how can we make this impactful, powerful?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: How can we create something that is a little different, a little unique than someone else is doing it in another country, whether it's a road agency or it's a pharmaceutical manufacturer, wherever the client is, how can we shape it in a way that's unique and creative?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's so I get your point absolutely.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um but when we talk about creative, I mean, uh something that has, I think holds a big interest for you is where we're going with AI.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: AI decision making, um, asset management, workflow optimization, um, everything, not everything, but a lot of things are now being slowly being filtered for the right or the wrong reason.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: I uh, you know, I know that there's good and bad in everything, and I and we're seeing the good in in AI in some ways and and the bad in some ways, but it's up to us to try to mold it and and use it as the right tool for the right reasons.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we have this conversation all the time on the on the show.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, where do you see the event industry and audience engagement going?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and how is it being transformed through AI?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: AI is a tool, it's not an answer, and there's nothing to be frightened of.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm 60 years old and I'm having to come to terms with it.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I like to think I've come to terms with it pretty quickly and quite well because when I got over the intimidation of what the hell does this thing do?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: I use it all the time now.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I absolutely love it.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: It is fun.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a firstly have expectations that there's no one tool that does all that you want, and even in a in the specific activity, that one tool doesn't do all of those specific activities the way you want it to.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: You have to m work with a range.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and sometimes you work in conjunction with tools.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: So once you've got its output, you have to put it through another tool to get a more refined version of what you look like.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Filter, filter, filter.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: How the events industry are going to benefit from AI.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's hands down operationally, you know, that as you suggested, workflows, um uh audience engagement, uh, delegate communication, a lot of these analyzing assets and asset optimization, yeah.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because and because a lot of these um interactions are absolutely able to be automated.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, we do have the frustration with bots and chat bots and things like this, but the technology's moved on significantly since then, and you can have um avatorial relationships with what you think is a person on screen who will guide you through the process of registration, guide you through the process of finding hotel rooms, guide you through the process of what the schedule of the conference is going to be, and based on the inputs that you may have put in to register for the event, can guide you to the ones it thinks you're likely to be more interested in, and then introduce you to like-minded people in that room.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because we we all struggle with networking a room, you know.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Outwardly, I may appear confident, but you put me in a room full of strangers, I hate it.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the worst experience ever.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: But if I know there's somebody I can have already connected with through the platform or social media because the information's guided me to them, you've instantly got something in common that you can break that ice with.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: So all of these approaches can be much better managed through uh the use of AI.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but don't ignore the human touch.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, of course, of course.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be curated by a person.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And don't let it think for you.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: None at all.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's the biggest dilemma is so many people are getting a quick fix out of it.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: They think, oh, well, that's it then.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: 30 seconds, my job's done.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's just the beginning.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: AI is like a smart toddler.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: You could be very smart, but you have still to hold its hand once in a while, make sure it does the right stuff.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, Paul, staying on the um on the technology front, obviously AI is uh is like you said, rightly said, it's a tool.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: You have to hold its hand, make sure it's it goes through the right, you know, the right processes, filter, filter, filter until you see what you feel is correct and and relevant to what what you're using it for.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: But also from a technology perspective, from a tele technology standpoint, you've got a lot of data.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of people coming to these large-scale events, which means you're dealing with a lot of data.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: That data needs to be managed responsibly, but it's a huge, huge resource.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: How do you see data now, maybe opposed to a few years ago, being used strategically and in the right way or responsibly?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's got better, but there's a long way to go.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: What I said earlier about time and collaborating with clients, which equals more time to get it right, and organizations working or departments working in silos, because they uh it might be the PR department, it might be the event team, it might be marketing, it might be the digital team, any of those.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: They they all have a slightly different objective, and it's not cohesive.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Where you've got those touch points, whether it's registration from somebody's home PC, laptop, or handheld, that's a touch point for data.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And every stage through the journey, all the way out the door and back to their own home, all of these are touch points for data.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: The challenge with not having enough time is that that strategy is not put together properly, so it all tends to be focused on either registration at home or registration on site.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's a there there are other companies uh that use heat maps to see where people move and how they uh uh track around the the the venue or the the hall, etc.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: But that's only useful next time.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's something that you need to have access to in real time.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: The challenge is everybody's got data.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: As I said, some are using it better than many.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's what I call data saturation without strategic interpretation.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it just means I've got an awful lot of information.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to get answers out of it quickly, but are they the right answers?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Have we had the time to ask the right answers?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Did we set up the touch points before we opened, having planned it properly, so we could glean as much benefit as possible?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're almost in a situation, you know, in political campaigns they have these uh research companies that are upholsters, and they almost always get it wrong because they're asking rapid decision strategy questions, not based on thought through objectives.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you've got an event which you've got six, maybe eight weeks if you're lucky, to pull it all together, get it done, get it out, get it up, get the client happy, you've missed so many opportunities to get more meaningful, qualitative information.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: But then you've got to have the people in the organization who know how to read it properly.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't, find a vendor who does.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: But because it takes time to find a trusted vendor, because we haven't spent time with them to get to know them on a personal level and build that human connection.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: That we're in a rush just to get somebody that can interpret something as fast as we can.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Our employees, if it's their task to do that, oftentimes it's a marketing department because statistics and data analysis is marketing, right?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's a science.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so we don't use our data anywhere near as well as we possibly can.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And there's an old expression that I remember years ago, and this was about uh CRMs, crap in, crap out.
• 31:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 31:26
  unknown: Yeah.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there you have it, because you've even got people in your organization that don't fill the fields in proxy.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: They just want to get it done and move on to the next screen.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or you've got people who register or or the general public who come to your activities, they don't want to be bothered with it.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got to find a way to make it easier and a pleasure to do.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: But this is where being strategic and smart about those touch points, yeah, that you're enabled to pick up more information.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Have uh Bluetooth-enabled interactivity where they're stood in front of uh uh an exhibit, have QR codes, have any other technological uh interactive method that means passively people are playing a game.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: So gamify it that they are being encouraged to give you, even if it's drip feed, a little more information about themselves, but as at as many points as you possibly can, and not exploit, but take them, get as much out of the activation and the exhibit where the dwell time has been that you learn a little bit more about them, and then you're building that community, you're then enabled to communicate with that community after your activity because you can provide them offers, you can provide them the next thing that you're gonna do.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: You could partner with a uh a commercial organization and maybe even your sponsors enabled to get more connectivity to those people.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they're gonna want to sell them more stuff, but do it in a way that makes it feel like I want to do this.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's more intimate, more personal, and you're appealing to them in a way that you know now from their data how they can be appealed to because it's you you can make it a little more personal than just casting a net.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that data just in the old days would just get shipped to the sales department.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: But there is something to be said about having the intuition um of being of doing this for a long time, understanding the feel in a boardroom and knowing what's problems are gonna happen around the corner and detecting them before they happen, sort of thing.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that I guess I don't know if it can be taught, but if it can be taught, how do you feel about or or what what is your opinion on mentoring younger people in this in this events industry, in the events industry uh here internationally?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Where where would you where would you start?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: What are your first recommendations, suggestions, advocacy for for people that are in in any part of this industry starting up 100% behind it?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mentor people now you know not in my business, um, and from different parts of the world.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a hundred percent behind it.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Firstly, uh when I'm dead and buried, all that information goes with me, so it's no good there.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, so you know, so I I and and in in in the environments professionally, there have been teams that I've worked with that have have come up against an issue and uh they've stopped, stock, stare still, because in that moment they're overwhelmed and they don't know what to do.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's where the experience comes in, sometimes it's innate and you just react, sometimes it's considered because you pull from memory and you go, ah, we this is how we solved it the last time.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or I'm just need to adapt it for this time.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh or going through the process, because experience tells you that things go wrong, you've maybe not had a crisis plan, but you've you've had a plan A for the objective, but a B and a C and what ifs because you know these things are going to be pinch points, you can see them, but so this is this is for me the benefit of experience, and it is imperative and incumbent on us all to uh pay that back to the the community that's coming into the business, and also we've got such a lot to get out of them, you know.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many times, particularly with uh you know laptops and um uh communication and artificial intelligence and with with uh iOS and MOS programs, where somebody who's been significantly younger than me has either said, Oh, well, there's a better way to do that.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, all right, show me.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or it works both ways.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Can I do this?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I've prompted it, and and and oftentimes, like people do, they take over the mouse and I say, no, no, no, talk me through it so I can do it myself.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you only have to show me once, and I got it.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it and it's been such a pleasing experience because uh they've spent a bit of time with me, which has built a relationship in a slightly different way than a hierarchical one.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I spent a bit of time with them, and they've also taught me something.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so when the time comes that you do need to leave on the people in your team, you've you've got much more trust and affection because you've had that interaction.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: But if things are done in silos and it's all done by email, yeah, you don't know who to count on when the chips go down.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have that that friendship, you don't have that bond.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: And this is this this is a slight dilemma for me that I haven't got a problem with hybrid or remote working.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: It has a time and place and it's great.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: But equally, in in the office environment, there are people that sit next to each other and email one another and don't say a word.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we all that fill yeah.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I understand that there's that comfort in not having to interact, yeah, but equally, well, that's the glue that bonds a team together.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and you know, I've got I've done deliveries of shows, events, festivals, etc.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: And because we've had that connectivity beforehand, it's made things a lot more pleasant on site.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then when things inevitably go astray on site, you you don't shout at one another because you you don't have that tension because you know who you each of you are.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: You can get the right person involved, or you can um just pick someone and say, uh, Ahmed, Tony, with me.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to deal with this.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and they don't mind because they like you, because you've spent time with them.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you know their character.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of it, we all sit round the table on site and have have sometimes very emotional experiences.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Or it adds to the banter, yeah, the two and the for fro of of uh Nicky taking that you couldn't have because they don't know you.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're not in on it, but they do now.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's a very special bonding in in events teams when you work together.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Once a project is completed and everything went pretty much the plan, at least for in uh the perception of a of a solid, solid finish.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be little things here and there.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: You fix them, you move on.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end, when you're having a little dinner at the end, or you're doing the family photo on the stage, and it's finished and you're just fatigued, but there's just a feeling that it's like a band of brothers, you know.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you've been you've been you remember shouting at someone down here quickly because you needed to get something, and and you know it's not personal, but we need this done, we need that done.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Quick fix that, fax that.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's a panel.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody has come together and fixed the problem, or have made someone else look good, or have made the client happy.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And no matter what, all of it is this cumulative, just holistic feeling of wow, you know, that was we've done it, it was a great event, tear down time.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's let's just you know relish in this.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: And there is a a camaraderie in that that a lot of people don't get unless you're in that industry.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you're absolutely right.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: The young will teach the old and the old will teach the young, or I should say the experience will teach the less experience and the and vice versa.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to finish off with this, Paul.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we, you know, we are coming into possibly a condensed period of events.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to play catch up a little bit.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're really good at that because we can operate fast, especially in this region.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're speaking internationally, of course, um, to anyone that's that's that's following us, but here we move very fast, expeditiously, we organize quickly.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: What what's going on with you now?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: With with what's good, you know, with uh with your uh consultancy and all that you're involved in.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Anything on the horizon that we should know about?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing that I'm comfortable to speak publicly about, or no, and not I mean this is just the fact that we didn't get this beforehand, by the way.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just I'm catching them off guard, by the way.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, and and and it's it's you know an absolutely fine question, Michael, because when I say I can't, there's probably a handful of projects that have an NDA on them.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I know.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like they're that I could literally count them on one hand, but there's a number that uh are being pitched for, and here's the dilemma.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if they're gonna get awarded.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've recently had uh was it the esports World Cup relocate from Riyadh in June to Paris?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: That was a month-long gig.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: At least.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and that's not build-up delivery and breakdown, that's the the event open day period.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a significant change.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so yet, you know, I've seen it all the time.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're filling out RFPs like crazy.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: Great, I think it's a paper exercise.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because as I said before about the cost of uh pitching, I you know, I I can fill out RFPs till the cows come home.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if I've an endless bank account, I can create pitch decks and throw mud at the wall till the cows come home.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's understanding whether there's a guarantee you're gonna pitch to win.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I totally understand that that's not viable, but in terms of what we have on the horizon, um, and I've said it recently, waiting for Q4, it's a trap.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a folly.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I've got to be as I believe realistic.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and it isn't right.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: I come from a background where don't tell me what you want me to hear, tell me what I need to know.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's going gray, I can do more of that.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: If it's going astray, I can look at what it why and fix it.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like surprises.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this statement comes out of that fact that uh if Q4 lands the way we hope it's going to land, it's going to be a tsunami.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing good ever comes out of the tsunami.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, things will be delivered, income will be made, but I question the quality because it's all gonna be done good, fast, cheap, use two.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's gonna be fast, possibly cheap, because people won't have the revenues due Q2 and Q end of Q1 being so poor.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: So they're gonna look to do things at the same level, but with a much lower budget.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think we need to correct our expectations.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, Q1 2027.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I can't promise that.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: And largely due to confidence, it isn't about appetite, but good god the appetite's there.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're starving, so we you know, put a banquet in front of us will devastate it.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's gonna be whether the confidence is there, not only by the stakeholders who are paying for the party, and are they gonna get their bang for the buck, but also the audiences are they gonna be there in sufficient footfall to make it worthwhile?
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been trying to get um AAA and double A concert and uh performance uh content for the last two months.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've forgotten the US because there's a uh a man a moratorium from the US not to travel here.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the biggest impact has been whether the act can get insurance, right?
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the insurers won't cover that.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: So even Europe and the UK uh performers won't come.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's not whether they can get insurance, it's whether they have the appetite, but they're using insurance as an excuse and the confidence to come here.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because is it gonna be okay?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and the the authority I'm working with have given me a guarantee that if they need medical, if they need repat, if they need housing, it's underwritten.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: But that's still not good enough because the public are looking at it and thinking, I don't know if I'm gonna be safe.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now we know the reality and it's it's a it's a hundred and eighty degrees different.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course, of course.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a shame how it's it's framed, you know, uh the wrong way.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, 180 degrees, the perception is completely way off the mark.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um hopefully that's gonna see the light of day in terms of the reality of things.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, and the ground and this is where that you know I've contributed directly to uh ministry in in the GCC about change your approach, um restructure your budgets and alter your expectations.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Then you're not going to be misled into what the outcome's gonna look like, but also let's focus more on national and regional activity and take ego out of it and stop looking for the big bang wow, because you'll be spending a lot of time and effort chasing your tail.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: And there's an awful lot that we can do in the UAE, in Saudi, um, hopefully in Qatar, hopefully in Bahrain, but within the GCC as a whole, both nationally and collectively, to sustain our own uh economies, because we have the population.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: We have the market.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:05
  unknown: Yeah.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: We just got to adapt the storyline that resonates with the people that are here.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than an easy win of just make the internationals happy.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: Global this event, global this summer, global this conference, or or bringing in uh the Rolling Stones.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's probably easier to No, it makes a lot of sense.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: We we do have the appetite here, we have the interest here, we have certainly have the resources, we have the funding.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh it makes a lot of sense.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: And my concern has always been, again, with when we said earlier about a very long summer.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my concern's been that the freelancers and the vendors, they've only got so many, so much cash flow and so much bank deposit to last as long as they can.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: And almost certainly they'll go elsewhere.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then when and if Q4 comes in like we hope, this is why I question the quality of it all.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Where are the people?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Where's where's the hardware?
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: Where's the know-how?
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then the danger, of course, as I've seen with deliveries that have been planned very short term, they set a budget to it and then realize that you're hitting rush fees.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: All the people that you want aren't in the place that you want them to be, so you've now got to fly them in at great expense and and accommodate them.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: And suddenly your budgets just burnt blown up.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: The stuff I did in Saudi was on average 35% over budget.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was working with EMC This year.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, uh the the year before and the year before that.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the year before that.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: So some of these major giga deliveries, yeah, they've they I mean they've had millions as a budget and dollars, but they've ended up being 30 to 35% over budget.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: Skewed projection reality.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's just yeah, well, and also because they what they wanted was more than they were able to budget for.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody somewhere didn't tell somebody what they needed to know, they told them what they wanted to hear.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then start um applying for budget overruns.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Or somebody in that authority gets involved and says, no, we want to change it to this, we want a bigger of that, we want all of the uh signage and the wayfinding and the branding altered uh because we want we don't like what it looks like.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know there's going to be a but no, that's in the budget.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, it isn't.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's additional.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're sitting down with the authority going through line items for months trying to explain to them that there is a budget.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: But that's also the result of a nascent industry, right?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the events industry is fairly nascent in uh in Saudi.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they don't know what the expectation, they don't the line items, half the line items are missing because they don't know that these exist or they're compulsory.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: So well, in a way, it goes back to what I said about getting that image created, getting a graphic.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: So then when you're building a scope of work and a bill of quantities, yeah, you've got a picture to work from, and then innately your mind goes, Oh, if I've got to get this, I've got to get all the electrical cables, then I've got to get gen sets, then I've got to get, and you start putting these steps into place.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you're just given a blank sheet of paper and write me a scope of work or write me a BOQ, it's a bit like saying, give me your top ten favorite movies, you'll probably run dry by about three or four.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: But and then given a bit more time, you'll think of five, six, seven.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what happens.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: But if you start from something that's that's evident, cohesive, and everybody's agreed to, that helps you build out that that operational and technical plan so much more clearly.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you get on site, you haven't forgotten something.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of these things are insurance permits, little things that that you know add up.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, I what do you mean I have to have this, I have to have that?
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's part of it, you know.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, there's there's a lot that uh require scrutiny by a real, a strong event organization that can tell you the facts and the truth and the reality behind what you're expecting.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, but Paul, that was a it was a longer conversation I thought, and I'm really glad that it was because we had a really, really great chat.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's not often you get to speak to someone that it knows the industry inside and out for so long, especially in the region.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: Really uh great to have you here.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for taking the time.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: I hope there's something of value in there, and and thank you very much again for inviting me.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: The Backdrop Podcast was recorded at One Central Dubai, hosted by Michael McClennan and produced by Dan Powell.