Latest / Legally Brunette / KILLER THRILLER DOCU: One Murder. Two Men. Two very different versions of the story. Who’s lying?

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KILLER THRILLER DOCU: One Murder. Two Men. Two very different versions of the story. Who’s lying? · Legally Brunette

• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Killer Thriller, docu-edition. So what if two
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: people tell you completely different stories about a murder and
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: both stories sound believable? That's the mystery at the heart
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: of Murder in Glitterball City, which is HBO's documentary from
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: filmmakers Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbato. In 2010, the body
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: of James Carroll, a talented hairdresser and drag performer, was
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: discovered buried in the basement of a Victorian home in Louisville, Kentucky.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: And inside that home were two former lovers, Joey Banas
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: and Jeffrey Munt. And when police began asking questions, each
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: man had a very different story about what happened to Jamie,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: with each ultimately accusing the other of murder. And then
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: there was this video. It was a strange recording made
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: by Joey Banas will become one of the most compelling
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: and puzzling pieces of evidence in the entire case. And
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: today we are going inside murder in Glitterball City with
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Fanton Bailey. and Randy Barbato to talk about this extraordinary
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: case and the people behind the headlines and why sometimes
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: the most difficult mysteries aren't about what happened, but who
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: you believe. Gentlemen, first, welcome. Thank you for joining me.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Let me congratulate you on the documentary. Gripping, fascinating, really creepy,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: but also I knew nothing about Louisville. So I thank
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: you for that. What a fascinating place. Beautiful, fascinating, I
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: don't know, eccentric, colorful, very much bent in like your background.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: The homes are beautiful.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: So I really didn't know anything about Louisville and I
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: really enjoyed learning about it. Just a colorful, fabulous place
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: filled with history. But let's talk about why you chose Louisville.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: And again, listeners, we're talking about the men behind RuPaul's
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Drag Race. Very unlike this documentary, right? In terms of
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: genre and what you're doing. But what about this case
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: made you guys want to make this documentary?
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: Well.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Initially, HBO reached out to us and told us about
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: this book written by David Domine.
• 2:30
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: And we read the book and we said, well, this
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: seems really interesting.
• 2:37
  Speaker 5: So we went to Louisville.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: And immediately, and just to meet some people, talk to
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: some characters in the book to get a sense of
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: the city. And it was that visit that made us say, oh,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: my God, you know, we got to do this. And
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: it wasn't just the story, because we thought that the
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: story and the crime, although there were two trials that
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: had already taken place, and one person was convicted and
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: the other person was found guilty but never really served
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: significant time in jail. So there were some questions about
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: the crime, but we were also just interested in the
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: community and interested particularly in learning a bit more about
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: the victim and trying to tell his story as well.
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: I think you did, in my humble opinion, such a
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: good job of showcasing the community and the quote unquote characters.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: such interesting, colorful, endearing group of people, right? And so
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: all of that in contrast to the viciousness and what
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: actually happened, there's like that juxtaposition. I just thought the
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: whole thing was fascinating. But let's move on. And what
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I want to know is, you know, you guys open
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: it with Joey confessing to murder. And then you find
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: out that the video is something– potentially very different than
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: what it appears. When you guys first saw that footage,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: did you think that that was a genuine confession?
• 4:18
  Speaker 6: When we saw that, I remember we saw it and
• 4:21
  Speaker 6: we thought, that is the beginning of the film.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: That was like... Because the.
• 4:26
  Speaker 6: Story is so complicated and there were so many different
• 4:29
  Speaker 6: versions and they each accused the other and it was like,
• 4:32
  Speaker 6: where do you start with it? And when we saw
• 4:34
  Speaker 6: that tape, we were like, that's where you start.
• 4:38
  Speaker 5: Because.
• 4:39
  Speaker 6: Even though the tape itself is pretty, I mean, it's
• 4:42
  Speaker 6: unusual that someone confesses to a murder on tape. But
• 4:47
  Speaker 6: then there's this bit before it and after it that
• 4:51
  Speaker 6: calls all that into question. And we were like, this
• 4:55
  Speaker 6: is kind of really, you know, it puts you right
• 4:59
  Speaker 6: in the middle of it from the beginning. And you
• 5:02
  Speaker 6: may think you know what's happened, but. if you watch
• 5:06
  Speaker 6: the beginning and the end of that, you're like, what
• 5:08
  Speaker 6: is going on here? Like, it looks like Joey's confessed,
• 5:11
  Speaker 6: but it seems that Jeffrey isn't really being held hostage
• 5:14
  Speaker 6: on the bed. And then it looks like Jeffrey's sitting
• 5:17
  Speaker 6: up on the bed, writing on his computer.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 5:20
  Speaker 6: And Joey's saying, did I give you what you need?
• 5:23
  Speaker 6: You know, it's like very, it suddenly feels very performative.
• 5:27
  Speaker 6: It's just, and so you see it two ways. You know,
• 5:31
  Speaker 6: the first time you see it without those bits, you're like.
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: This is a confession. Then you see it with those,
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: bits at either end you're like well yeah this.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Is you know when i first saw it i wasn't
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: convinced i i don't know maybe i am just so intuitive.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: But i don't really think that.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: I think you are i think yes yeah.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah i don't i think i don't know the way
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: the delivery was so um robotic in a way it
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: felt forced and i don't know that i thought oh
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: you know he definitely didn't do anything i but something
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: there was definitely, I had like, something feels a little
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: off about this moment.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: Did you guys feel like that?
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: I mean, yes. And I mean, it's so arresting. I
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: think that's the first thing that we felt. And then yeah,
• 6:22
  Speaker 5: it felt stilted.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: And, and as we, you know, as we really immersed
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: ourselves in, in trying to find out more about the
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: story and when we talked to, you know, the prosecutors
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: and when we started talking to people who knew both
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey and Joey, then it started to really become clear
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: that this story was not as clean.
• 6:48
  Speaker 5: Cut as it was presented. And also, you know, we
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: didn't speak with Jeffrey.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: No one can find him, right? Is he still listening?
• 6:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: We did talk to Joey, and I think the combination
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: of all the people we spoke with and the prosecutors
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: and looking at the evidence, it became very clear that
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: this was not– two people should be behind bars, not
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: just one.
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: That felt very, very clear to me.
• 7:25
  Speaker 6: I think the other thing was, you know, that when
• 7:29
  Speaker 6: we saw that tape, You know, they talk about the
• 7:31
  Speaker 6: method to the madness.
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: There's also, like, the crystal method to the madness.
• 7:36
  Speaker 6: Like, these guys were on so much drugs and taking
• 7:42
  Speaker 6: so many drugs over such a long period of time
• 7:44
  Speaker 6: that they weren't behaving normally. And you're right that something's off.
• 7:50
  Speaker 6: But I think we just thought they were both so
• 7:53
  Speaker 6: drug addled it was hard to get a read on
• 7:55
  Speaker 6: what was real and what was not.
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: You know, I didn't understand... Jeff got such a light sentence.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: And even with, um, even with the jury saying, okay,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: he's not responsible for the actual murder.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: He was there. He was an accomplice.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: He didn't report it until he was, you know, until
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: the phone call and he was brought to the police station.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: How did he, how didn't, I don't get it. He,
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: what'd he get?
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: He got out after a year, he got three years.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: I found that I couldn't quite grasp that.
• 8:29
  Speaker 6: He got a much shorter sentence, I think, not for murder,
• 8:32
  Speaker 6: but for, like, interfering with a dead body and, you know, theft.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, he was there. He was there to put
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: the body into the box.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: And they also lived in that house with the body
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: in the basement for, I think, nine months.
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: Oh, God.
• 8:54
  Speaker 6: But it was a different jury, and Jeff was– a
• 8:58
  Speaker 6: more presentable, um, you know, person and witness.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: I thought he was only more presentable because he didn't
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: have a background officially. I didn't find him. I found
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: him whack a doodle do on stand. I mean, I,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: I found him scary and I actually, weirdly enough, didn't
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: find Joey as off-putting.
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 9:23
  Speaker 6: I mean, Joey had the colorful background, but seemed more
• 9:25
  Speaker 6: authentic or integral as a person, right? Whereas Jeffrey was
• 9:31
  Speaker 6: just this very sort of arrogant, trying to make fun
• 9:35
  Speaker 6: of the lawyers kind of point.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: Of view and stuck up, you know? Yes, yes.
• 9:42
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 9:43
  Speaker 6: Also, Jeffrey had the better lawyers, though. You know, his
• 9:46
  Speaker 6: parents paid for The lawyer admits he's an expensive lawyer.
• 9:52
  Speaker 6: You've got to be able to afford him.
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: Whereas Darren, what was his name?
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: Darren. Darren's a great lawyer.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: It's just the reason. It's kind of the resources of
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: how they can build up the defense. I mean, even
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: the prosecutors didn't have the resources to convict in some
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: ways because at the time this happened, they didn't have
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: the kind of digital expertise they have now. And there
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: was so much, all those, you know, we got access.
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: To Chloe's laptop. And we were able to spend the
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: time to go through that.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of stuff in there that didn't
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: necessarily make it into the courtroom.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Guys, I don't, explain to me, and I know one
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: was an Apple and the police only had access to,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: what was that?
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: It wasn't that, it wasn't 1950s. What happened there?
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: Why couldn't they, I mean, you guys got in, why
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: couldn't the cops?
• 10:51
  Speaker 6: It was just a sheer volume of texts, you know,
• 10:54
  Speaker 6: hundreds and hundreds of pages of texts.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: But you all had the wherewithal to go through them.
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: You know, the theory.
• 11:00
  Speaker 6: Goes that the problem for the prosecution was that they
• 11:04
  Speaker 6: weren't able to access anything that wasn't on a Mac.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: Doesn't that sound strange to you guys?
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it does seem strange, but it was, you know,
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: it was.
• 11:15
  Speaker 5: 2009.
• 11:17
  Speaker 6: It was like, you know, a while ago and it
• 11:20
  Speaker 6: was before this sort of mountain of evidence was generally
• 11:26
  Speaker 6: available or that people had the know-how to go through it.
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: You know, it's extraordinary.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: And I think we were, we were also, I mean,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: in addition, like we were really intrigued by that relationship
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: and we were trying to understand who, who might be
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: more responsible if they were equally responsible.
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: I think we were looking at things in a slightly different.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Way than they were. And yeah, we had different technology
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: and more access so that we were able to go
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: through things.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: It just seemed to me when you all, when you
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: did start showing us what was in that laptop, that
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: is all information that seems very necessary. You know, if
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: you're going to try this case, And what now, what
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: now that there is all that, all this additional information,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: are they going to bring Jeff back in if they
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: could find him?
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: I don't think so. No, I don't think there's any,
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: any chance of that.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: That is.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: And then even when they said I was blown away
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: when I want to say it was Jeff who claimed
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: that Jamie's throat was slit and Joey said that Jeff
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: stabbed him and there was the stab wounds as opposed
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: to the slit throat. That freaked me out. I mean,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: that to me seems like a really powerful piece of evidence.
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: Me too.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: And the moment they said that, I remember just thinking, wait,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: I don't understand. Like, how is that not part of
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: this case? And the police officers were agreeing. They're like, exactly.
• 13:02
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, just, it really does feel like something went
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: terribly wrong here. Well, something definitely did go terribly wrong here,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: but in terms of of justice being served, you know,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: and I, it's, it's, it's, um, it's, you know, the
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: whole thing is so a lot of times I, obviously
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I watch a lot of true crime and I get
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: to interview fascinating.
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: People like you.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: And it's, it's a much better feeling when at the end,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: when you feel like somebody there's, there's justice, right.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: And the justice is served.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: It's always horrible to watch, you know, crime and true
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: crime documentaries are not always fun for sure. But at
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: least at the end of so many of them, at
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: least you see justice being served. And I just, when
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I was done with this, I was just pissed.
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: I don't even know for sure that Jeff did it.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: But, you know, even what you guys revealed made me
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: feel like this is not, nothing's wrapped up in, you know,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: a nice little ball here.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: This is all over the place. It's very frustrating.
• 14:04
  Speaker 6: I do think the justice system is really, I know
• 14:07
  Speaker 6: it's the best we've got. but it does seem very
• 14:11
  Speaker 6: flawed and unreliable.
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:15
  Speaker 6: And I, for example, the whole, the whole forgery thing,
• 14:18
  Speaker 6: you know, like the idea that Jeffrey got a hold
• 14:21
  Speaker 6: of Jamie's computer and used it to forge money.
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: And it's like, that doesn't seem to.
• 14:28
  Speaker 6: Be the actions of someone who's not involved in a,
• 14:32
  Speaker 6: in the other crime, the murder.
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 14:34
  Speaker 6: Like how cold can you be that, someone has died
• 14:39
  Speaker 6: in front of you, you've participated in burying the body,
• 14:43
  Speaker 6: but then you use their computer, and then you start
• 14:46
  Speaker 6: forging money, and then you're like, well, if you can
• 14:50
  Speaker 6: do that, maybe that's what you were intending to do
• 14:53
  Speaker 6: all along. Maybe it wasn't just like, well, what do
• 14:55
  Speaker 6: we do now? We need money, so let's forge something.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: And if you were truly terrified of the person you
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: were with, that moment when he got arrested, when... There
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: was the opportunity for.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: Him to run or.
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: Go to the police or anything.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: And instead he bailed him out.
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: $ 20, 000. Wasn't it?
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: Something real dollars.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: Real, real dollars.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: You know, it's funny because, uh, I don't.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: From what I, from what I saw watching this documentary,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Joey was no angel and I don't know. It's like,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: so I, and I was very taken with his, uh, ex-boyfriend. Wouldn't,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: the one that he took the glass and stabbed him
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: in the arm and that, and the guy, then the
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: way that Joey moved in next door to him. I mean,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: that's some excuse me.
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: No, it is.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: And I, when he said it, he was like he,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: and he got choked up and I felt sick for
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: this guy.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: So I'm, I didn't get the impression watching the documentary that,
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: you know, Joey is an angel, right? No.
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: But there's something about Joey, though, that we kind of.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: We know who he is in a way. Like, I
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: don't think he, I think we got a lot of
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: his truth from him. And I don't think that, and
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: I think he's exactly where he belongs.
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: Where he belongs.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what it feels like. It just feels like
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Jeff should be there, too.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: In some way, I think Jeff's scarier.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, I agree.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, whatever you guys, however you guys made this,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: made the film, I was definitely more creeped out by Jeff.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: And they're both creepy.
• 16:46
  Speaker 6: Every time my computer glitches, I'm like, you know.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: Is Jeff in my computer? Oh God.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: Fanta, don't put shit in my head.
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: No, I mean. I gotta go.
• 16:59
  Speaker 6: I mean, I think it takes some know-how to forge money.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's not like... I mean, that was for sure.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: He's very savvy. He was absolutely talented. I mean, this
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: is not a stupid guy.
• 17:14
  Speaker 6: And then so out of it on Crystal Meth that
• 17:17
  Speaker 6: he hands off wet sample notes to the valet parking
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: as opposed to... using the money that they've properly forged.
• 17:28
  Speaker 6: So it's a crazy story.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: So many of the characters. I say characters, these are
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: people involved. Um, I was so touched by, and the,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: so Jeff had those two friends that stood by him
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: and that then he disappeared and they were so hurt
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: by that. And I thought that that was fascinating. Like,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: are you serious? You actually like, what part am I
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: missing where you really care about this guy? Or there
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: was some kind of real love and affection. I don't,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't really get it right. Like What
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: kind of history did they have with him where he
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: was so special to them?
• 18:24
  Speaker 6: I mean, I wonder if there's something slightly psychopathic about
• 18:29
  Speaker 6: Jeff in that maybe he spotted them as vulnerable people
• 18:33
  Speaker 6: who would befriend him and who felt that he was
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: sophisticated and worldly and, you know, I think they were used.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: And he was leading a complete double life.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: And I think when he met Joey, like those two
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: lives kind of- Inverged. Yeah, and then he became sort
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: of the secret Jeffrey kind of took over eventually. I mean,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: we had the carpenter who was hired.
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: By Jeffrey. There's a carpenter who was hired by Jeffrey
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: to cover the floor with cement after they buried him.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: The little guy that said he offered him his clothes?
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: No, no, not that guy.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: He was the guy, the little guy who they offered
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: the clothes to was looking after the cats.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, right.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Another guy in the film who was... is like a
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: carpenter and a fix-it man, handyman.
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: He got hired. to to cover the floor with cement and.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: And then um then he never heard back and um
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: you know, shortly thereafter they found the body.
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: So it was very close to that body never being
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: found if.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: He had the cement over.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: But he told us, and I don't think we included
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: any of it in the film, that there were times
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: when he was doing other work there because he was
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: cleaning out the basement. And there were times when they
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: had guys, they were having like, daytime sex parties, madhouse.
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: So I think there was a point in time where.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: This secret life of Jeffrey's sort of overtook the rest.
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: Of his life. Yeah.
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: So one thing I thought was particularly interesting. So you
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: talked about how Jeff used to get very jealous that
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: he would have to leave for work and leave Joey
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: and Jamie there. But then I sort of forgot about that, right?
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I thought, I kind of felt like it all happened
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: because it was just so drug-fueled. I mean, I don't
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: know if there are enough drugs that would make somebody
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: else commit that kind of a heinous murder. That could
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: be just drugs or whatever. But So, and then I
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: sort of forgot about it. Like, do you think that
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: that was a big piece of this? Do you think
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: that Jeff or Joey were, you know, jealous and scorned
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: and that took them?
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: That's what Joey says.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Joey's kind of defense is that Jeffrey.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Was- Was jealous of them.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: And he walked away and he took a break and
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: then the two of them were- you know, fooling around
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: and he went into a rage.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was just like, did that play? Cause, cause what,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: you know, if not for that, why, how did it,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: was it the drugs that turned this into murder?
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: Because that's the only thing all of a sudden, right.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: According to, we don't, I think it was Joey that
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: says that he was tied up when Jeff do it.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: Jeff did it.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: And Jeff claimed that Joey started, I don't know if
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Jeff said he was tied up and, but I couldn't
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: figure it out.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: You guys like what other, what happened?
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: It is a drug, like it is all a drug haze.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: And by the way, even the idea, cause certainly the
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: prosecutors felt it was sort of drug-fueled frenzy. And that also,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: you know, it was part of this, that Jeffrey had
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: these really extreme, like, S & M, mummification, these extreme,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: you know, fantasies that they, you know, their thinking was
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: that this, you know, was one of those fantasies coming
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: to life, the thrill of having sex and killing someone.
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: It's horrific to think about.
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: But you could see it in Jeffrey, like that sort
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: of cold, calculating thing of, what would it be like
• 23:19
  Speaker 6: to kill someone? And maybe this is the way I
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: can do it. And I think that that's quite possible. Especially,
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: I mean, we're not really, Ren and I aren't necessarily
• 23:31
  Speaker 6: true crime filmmakers, but we did make another true crime
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: documentary called Party Monster. which was actually also about a
• 23:40
  Speaker 6: drug-fueled homicide, murder. Michael Ehrlich, this club kid, killed his
• 23:46
  Speaker 6: drug dealer with another person, actually. Actually, there were three
• 23:50
  Speaker 6: people in the room who killed Angel, that drug dealer.
• 23:54
  Speaker 6: And there is this same sense of, like, they say
• 23:59
  Speaker 6: the drugs. They use the drugs almost as an excuse.
• 24:03
  Speaker 6: You know, we were all out of it on drugs.
• 24:06
  Speaker 6: But underlying it, I think with Michael a league, for example,
• 24:10
  Speaker 6: there was a, a dark side and a desire or
• 24:14
  Speaker 6: a drawn to like, you know, like he liked to
• 24:19
  Speaker 6: watch faces of death and video things like that. And
• 24:23
  Speaker 6: I think I, I do see some similarities with, with
• 24:27
  Speaker 6: Jeffrey in this scenario of being, I don't think it's incredulous.
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: I don't think it's unbelievable that Jeffrey wouldn't, harbor this
• 24:36
  Speaker 6: desire to do such a thing.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: You guys really think Jeff did it, right?
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: I do.
• 24:42
  Speaker 6: And I think Joey, Randy and I do say this,
• 24:44
  Speaker 6: there's a little daylight between us, but I think Jeff
• 24:47
  Speaker 6: did it and Joey was his accomplice.
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: Witting, unwitting, not entirely sure. Yeah.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Like you said, it's not, it's okay that Joey's in
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: jail for the rest of his life, but also you
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: kind of think that Jeff had the knife.
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: You think the mastermind should be the one who's behind Joe.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: Randy. Randy.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he's more responsible for it, Jeffrey. And
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: certainly the sort of cleanup part, I think he thought
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: of that or at least equally orchestrated and planned it.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Because it seems very, you know, It just seems in
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: character with his mummification and just thinking about how to
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: deal with it.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: You know, I tried to separate when I was watching it.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Lots of people have fantasies. Lots of people have kinky fantasies.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: That doesn't make lots of people murderers, right? There's a
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: big difference. But it was so graphic. They showed the
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: sex to the jury. And which I thought was, I
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: don't know. What did you guys think of that actually?
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Did you think that that was fair game or solicitous?
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: We thought that it was important to show to the
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: jury and to show it in the film.
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: Because it was, it was the exam. Here is this
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: guy claiming he's terrified.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: His defense is that he didn't come forward because he was.
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: Terrified by this, by, By Joey.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: And there they are having hardcore sex. And no one
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: looks like they're being forced to do anything.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: No.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: And he is penetrating Joey.
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: I'm not going to get into the politics of one's
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: a top and one's a bottom, whatever.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: But it was just so clear that no one was
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: being forced to do what they were doing.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: That makes sense.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: And it was also pretty, for us, it was like,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: oh my God, you know, here we are down south
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: in Louisville and this, you know, courthouse, they're watching this tape.
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: I mean, it was kind of an extraordinary thing.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: It certainly was. I felt uncomfortable.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: It was.
• 27:19
  Speaker 6: Actually, that was one of the hardest things to edit
• 27:22
  Speaker 6: because it was like Renny and I went back and
• 27:24
  Speaker 6: forth and we thought about it a fair amount.
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: I wanted less of the sex, Fenton.
• 27:30
  Speaker 6: Randy wanted less, but I felt if you showed an
• 27:33
  Speaker 6: insufficient amount, you don't land it.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: You want the audience.
• 27:39
  Speaker 6: To feel as uncomfortable as the jury must've felt. Like,
• 27:43
  Speaker 6: otherwise there's no point in, in sharing the moment.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I, as a viewer, I think I would have
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: preferred less, but also I think it's important that I
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: saw more.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: So I'm kind of, I'm kind of with both of you.
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: Good answer.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: Good answer. Exactly.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: No, I just think, and the sex in and of
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: itself was, for me at least, it was scary. It wasn't,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: it didn't feel like, you know, I'm all for whatever
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: turns you on.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: But there was a feeling of violence in it. And
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: that was real. Do you know what I mean? It
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: didn't feel just like role playing or like fantasy. It
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: felt like scary.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Scary.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: Yes, I think that's true.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey seemed to be like the ringleader. Like he was
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: the one who was most verbal.
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: He seemed to be in charge.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he did.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I don't want to not talk about Jamie. I want
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: to make sure we talk about him. And I was
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: really touched by the stories about him and the people
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: that loved him. I was really happy that you guys...
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: included that kind of, you know, information background. Uh, I
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: feel like it was just, I hate when that kind
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: of stuff is not done, right. When the victims, when
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: you don't get to really get to know the victims.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: So I appreciate, always appreciate when that's done. Um, and
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: he just, he seemed like a confused guy and a
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: drug addict, but he was so beloved, right. Not just
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: by his customers, by his friends. You know, he just
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: seemed like a charismatic, special guy.
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: Yes. And a vulnerable guy.
• 29:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 29:33
  Speaker 6: Clearly really talented. Could do the hair and the makeup.
• 29:38
  Speaker 6: A great drag queen, but also a brilliant hairdresser.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: Right. And obviously a very giving and generous person.
• 29:43
  Speaker 6: And I think the story of him being beaten up
• 29:46
  Speaker 6: by his dad, you know, and almost dying.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:50
  Speaker 6: It's just so heartbreaking because in a way it establishes
• 29:54
  Speaker 6: a pattern in his life that he's not going to
• 29:57
  Speaker 6: be loved and respected.
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:59
  Speaker 6: He's a vulnerable soul and, and that's, that's so, that is.
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: So heartbreaking that, that, you know, for.
• 30:08
  Speaker 6: All his talents and kindness, he is someone who's going
• 30:14
  Speaker 6: to end up in harm's.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: Way or be exploited by people.
• 30:18
  Speaker 6: And because I do think that for all of Joey's faults,
• 30:22
  Speaker 6: I don't think Joey is a cold blooded killer. I
• 30:25
  Speaker 6: think he's a bad boy and, breaks laws and does
• 30:30
  Speaker 6: illegal things. I don't think he's a, I still think
• 30:33
  Speaker 6: it's really in him. Joey, I think was very, is
• 30:37
  Speaker 6: not lying when he says that he and Jamie were
• 30:40
  Speaker 6: friends and there.
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: Was a spark of warmth between them. But I think
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: that's what Jeffrey was jealous of.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: And the, the, the other really tragic thing about Jamie, um,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: By the way, making the film, it was great getting
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: to discover Jamie because we knew so little about him.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: And so we actually went there and like, you know,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: even finding the beauty parlor or the, you know, his
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: old teacher from the beauty school, that was just like
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: live knocking on doors and then asking the women in
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: the beauty parlor.
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: And then they were like, oh my God is, you know, the,
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: his ex teacher lives right up the street and they
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: called and brought her down.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: It was like, it was really great getting to, to
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: know them, these characters, but getting to know him through that.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:36
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: It was great as a viewer too. I really enjoyed that.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: And what you kind of learn about him and what is,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: he was so close to, to kind of surviving beyond
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: his circumstances. Like he was self-made and.
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: Was trying to escape.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: And, you know, sadly, you know, you can't beat drugs,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: you know, it's like he got sucked into the drugs and,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: you know, one way or another, like, I don't know
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: if it would have.
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: Ended, had a happy ending.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Cause it seemed like he really was, deeply addicted, but
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: too bad because he seemed like such a great guy.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: It was too bad.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: You know, you had the other character, and I'm going
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: to forget his name. He was there with his mom.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: They used to do drugs together, and he's been sober
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: for a while.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: Do you guys, what is his name?
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I know.
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: Like, for some reason, everybody's name begins with J. I know.
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: I know.
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: Joey, Jamie, Jeff.
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: But he's somebody who I thought he was such a warm.
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: Oh, my God. And that interview was so intense.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: So was the mother also, the mother saying, you know,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: I wasn't, something to the effect that she wasn't a
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: good mother. And he was like, no, no, no, you
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: were a fun mother. I guess they partied together. And
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: it's given a lot of grace to your mother, right?
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: He seemed like a. Yes.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: He was sober and his mom was fighting to be sober.
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: Like she was in that, when we did that interview.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Imagine. He got there early with his son and we,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: you know, they were both sweet people, but she was
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: still struggling a little bit. And since we made the film,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: she passed away.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: No.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so sad. That's so sad. I'm so sorry
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: to hear that. I loved watching the two of them together.
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: They were amazing. They were amazing.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: Let's talk about Louisville.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, you juxtaposed all of this, this nightmare with
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: this fabulousness that is Halloween or whatever the night was
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: in Louisville with everybody dressed up and, uh, their skits
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: and their.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: Act, you know, all the actors and the wannabe actors
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: are out.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: And I thought that was, um, I thought that was
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: so cool because it For me as a viewer, it
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: gave me a break, right?
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: Yes, it gives you a break.
• 34:21
  Speaker 6: But also, you've got, I mean, this old Louisville is
• 34:25
  Speaker 6: this extraordinary bubble inside Louisville. And Louisville itself is this
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: kind of hollowed out, kind of desolate place.
• 34:34
  Speaker 5: I mean, some of it.
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: It feels like The Walking Dead a little bit.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm not looking to visit anytime soon.
• 34:43
  Speaker 6: But the little, you know, the little, the strip, the
• 34:46
  Speaker 6: Victorian strip of Old Louisville is gorgeous, just so beautiful.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the homes are beautiful.
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: And it's that contrast that was pretty extraordinary.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: And it's also, you know, they claim it's one of
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: the spookiest towns in America.
• 35:05
  Speaker 5: And there are all these amazing ghost stories. And David Domine,
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: who wrote the book, He was cool. Yeah.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: He does these ghost tours and all that's real. And,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: and so, and, you know, where they have done these
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: ghost tours in the area where, you know, the spirits
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: are thought to be, you know, the house where Jamie
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: is killed is, is in that area. And it has
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: this incredible history and, and rich history of, dead bodies.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Do you all believe in that? Do you guys believe
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: in ghosts? Especially after having been there?
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: Well, I think it was.
• 35:50
  Speaker 6: This isn't really answering the question, but I think that
• 35:55
  Speaker 6: when you think about it, a lot of ghost stories
• 35:57
  Speaker 6: are basically gruesome murders, right?
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: Someone gets murdered hundreds of years ago and haunts the place.
• 36:04
  Speaker 6: And in a way, this whole story is like the
• 36:06
  Speaker 6: making of a modern ghost story.
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: And I thought I personally.
• 36:14
  Speaker 6: Have to say I don't, but I hate to say
• 36:18
  Speaker 6: that in case the next thing I know it's clanking
• 36:20
  Speaker 6: chains and some ghastly.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: You know, I don't, but I'm like, I don't either.
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: So terrified.
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: I might run into a ghost, you know?
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: Oh, you think they're going to, but they're coming for
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: you now. They're, they're coming for you.
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: I don't want to tempt fate. It's like, I don't
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: want to.
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: They're listening.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: Randy, do you believe in ghosts? Um, you're scared too.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: We're all scared.
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: We're scared to say no, right?
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: Maybe a little bit.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: You're keeping your options open.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: The thing about the ghosts that always occurs to me
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: is that even if they're real, they're not really bothering anyone.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: You don't hear about the hurt, like physically hurting. They're
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: just whatever. They're clinking around and clanking around.
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 37:00
  Speaker 6: Well, the ones in Poltergeist and The Exorcist don't seem
• 37:03
  Speaker 6: so nice. You kind of don't want them in your bedroom.
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: No, I don't want any of them in my bedroom.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: But the ones in Louisville are tickling them and, you know,
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: meowing like cats and crazy stuff.
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: Actually, this house was built in 1927, 26. And Tia,
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: who comes here.
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: The house you're in, that you're sitting in? Yeah, yeah.
• 37:27
  Speaker 6: And she comes in and she says she hears people
• 37:30
  Speaker 6: walking around.
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: She hears things.
• 37:31
  Speaker 6: And maybe it's possible that she hears things and I'm like,
• 37:34
  Speaker 6: I don't hear them. She hears doors closing. And this
• 37:37
  Speaker 6: actual room I'm in, in the house, used to be...
• 37:42
  Speaker 6: It's where they would put the... When someone died, they'd
• 37:46
  Speaker 6: lay out the body and have the wake around the body.
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: It was built for that purpose. So.
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: But if they are here.
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: They seem very friendly.
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: I'm not interested in you, Fenton. I'm sorry to tell you. Yeah,
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: you're okay with that.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: You're okay with that, yeah. You know, the ghost is really,
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: to me, the ghost is really Jeffrey. You know, he's
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: more like a ghost. Like, where is he? What's he doing?
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Do you guys, I always wonder this about documentarians. I
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: know you don't necessarily think of yourselves as true crime documentarians,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: but you have done two very big ones, so.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry to let you know that you.
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: Sort of are. And we're doing a few more, too. Oh, wow.
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: So you can't really hide from it, you guys. No,
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: you've got to own it. Do you get nervous?
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Because I sometimes think to myself, like, I don't know,
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: poking the bear here. You know, there are a lot
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: of crazies out there.
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: We got, this project we were very nervous about. I mean,
• 38:43
  Speaker 5: we still are a little.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: You faced your fear.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: After we finished it, we did get more information on
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: where he was.
• 38:53
  Speaker 5: And thankfully, it was after we finished it. He was close. No,
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: because had we, like, I don't know.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: I just, you know, I don't think that we didn't
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: need to have him in there. And I mean, he's
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: obviously seen it.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: Jennifer, years ago, we made a film about Hitler.
• 39:19
  Speaker 6: And it was about, based on this book, the pink furor, um,
• 39:26
  Speaker 6: which was about the idea that Hitler was gay. And
• 39:29
  Speaker 6: we went to Germany, and we.
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: Were filming in Germany, and that was a creepy experience.
• 39:35
  Speaker 6: We started getting calls at the hotels as we were
• 39:38
  Speaker 6: driving around Germany making this documentary, like, who are you?
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: What are you doing? And that was a little... That was...
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: That was a little unsatisfying.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: I bet it was. The Pink Fuhrer, I haven't heard
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: of it and I'm going to watch it. I'm very
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: interested in that.
• 39:52
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I am.
• 39:53
  Speaker 6: I don't think anybody wants Hitler to be gay. I mean,
• 39:57
  Speaker 6: we're gay, but we don't, it's not like he's a
• 39:59
  Speaker 6: role model.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: You don't want to claim him, I understand.
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: No, right, exactly.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: Yes, nobody would.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: So you guys describe this, I'm told, as a queer
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: true crime story.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: So tell me a little bit about, you know, making
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: this through a queer lens. So how does a traditional,
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: how did you, do you feel like doing it through
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: that lens, you got, you were able to capture something
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: that a true crime doc wouldn't have otherwise?
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Well, I think, I think partially we come in with
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: kind of a certain kind of empathy because like the
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: crime is important to us, but also all of the characters.
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: The victims and the perpetrators. I mean, we're really trying
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: to understand. And that, that I think comes from a
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: queer sensibility because we know what it's like to grow
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: up and, and not necessarily be victimized, but, you know,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: with the B yeah. So I think we come in
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: with a slightly different perspective. And then I also think,
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: you know, for us, part of this story is also
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: about the crystal meth epidemic. And that's an epidemic that
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: actually in that area, it's not exclusively epidemic within the
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: gay community, but for a long time, it was really,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: it was, yeah, it kind of was. And, and it it's, it's,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: It was surprising to me that there was as many
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: people still doing it.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: So while you were there, while you were filming, there
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: were people that was around?
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: There were stories of people doing it, yes.
• 41:51
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: And it felt like– and it is everywhere, I guess.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Not as much as it was, I think, 10 or
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: 15 years ago. But it's– so just including– information about
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: crystal meth and, and what it can lead to was
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: important to us.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: It's interesting. What do they say?
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: It was, it was like the glitter ball, right? It
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: was almost like raining crystal meth. There was so much
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 42:19
  Speaker 6: I mean, it was like, it was like a, it
• 42:22
  Speaker 6: was such a big business and Louisville was such a
• 42:25
  Speaker 6: well-placed sort of stop for the, for the drugs highway,
• 42:31
  Speaker 6: if you will, you know, And Crystal definitely has been
• 42:34
  Speaker 6: a devastating epidemic. As Randy says, you know, a lot
• 42:40
  Speaker 6: in the gay community and also now spreading out wider.
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: And I think as queer filmmakers, we weren't bringing really
• 42:51
  Speaker 6: a lot of judgment to the characters. And I think
• 42:54
  Speaker 6: that the story has been told in different ways before us.
• 43:00
  Speaker 6: but always it seemed to lean into the sensationalism of like, oh, gross,
• 43:06
  Speaker 6: you know, sort of gross out tabloidy thing, as opposed
• 43:12
  Speaker 6: to saying, yeah, this is a gay, this is a
• 43:16
  Speaker 6: queer story, and this is what queer people do.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that, yeah.
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: You know, it's not about judging that.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, again, these colorful humans, a lot of
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: them seem sad, A lot of them, I felt, I
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: don't know, I felt like maybe they were sad and
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: didn't seem like there was a lot of resources. And
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I could be wrong. These are just the feelings that
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: I got. And yet there was this warmth that radiated
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: from almost all of them.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: You know, they're really invested in the story.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: And something endearing about these characters, right? And I.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Was taken very taken by that. And then again, that
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: juxtaposed against Jeffrey and, uh, Joey.
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, but it was touching. It was really touching.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: I found so much of this to be, and then
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: so much of it to be horrific and so scary
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: and upsetting.
• 44:18
  Speaker 6: Well, you know, when we, when we went to Jamie
• 44:22
  Speaker 6: Carroll's where he's buried, we first had to go to the, uh,
• 44:28
  Speaker 6: church or the mortuary where we found the mortician and
• 44:33
  Speaker 6: they gave us the directions to find the grave. And
• 44:36
  Speaker 6: the grave isn't in a graveyard. It's literally in a
• 44:38
  Speaker 6: small plot of land beside a house. And the, and the,
• 44:41
  Speaker 6: and the guy told us, he said, be careful when
• 44:43
  Speaker 6: you find it, don't get out of the car right away.
• 44:45
  Speaker 6: Cause there's a very savage dog around. So make sure
• 44:48
  Speaker 6: it's safe to get out.
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: Of the car. So we did that.
• 44:51
  Speaker 6: And the first thing we saw was a sign on
• 44:54
  Speaker 6: this kind of shack of a house.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: The dog was inside barking.
• 44:57
  Speaker 6: And the sign on the check of house said something
• 44:59
  Speaker 6: like transsexuals will be shot on site.
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: Like what?
• 45:04
  Speaker 6: And that, that made us think like, I don't know,
• 45:07
  Speaker 6: but we went on and we, we, we, we filmed,
• 45:10
  Speaker 6: but what the reason.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: I'm saying, why would he have been buried in a
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: place like that?
• 45:13
  Speaker 6: Well, it's like, it's not that piece of, it's like
• 45:17
  Speaker 6: you then walk up a little path to a little
• 45:19
  Speaker 6: hilltop and there's a separate field, but it, it sort of,
• 45:24
  Speaker 6: you were aware of a sort of hostility towards queer
• 45:28
  Speaker 6: people and almost an assumption that Jamie Carroll, that's reflected.
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: To some degree in the media.
• 45:36
  Speaker 6: Jamie Carroll was a drug dealer and a drag queen.
• 45:38
  Speaker 6: And so in some sense deserved what his fate.
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean?
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but you did. Yeah, I guess. I don't know
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: how the media has portrayed him.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: I only know what you all, the story that you've told.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: He definitely didn't lead with drug dealer.
• 45:51
  Speaker 6: No, no, and anyway, like, drug dealers don't deserve to die.
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: Of course not. Homosexuals don't deserve to die.
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: Of course not.
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: Transsexuals don't deserve to die. Quite the reverse. And I
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: think that that's what, in.
• 46:03
  Speaker 6: Such a dark story, there is this, I feel, by
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: virtue of being, not virtue, by being queer filmmakers, we
• 46:12
  Speaker 6: were able to keep or bring a certain humanity to
• 46:17
  Speaker 6: an otherwise really dark story.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: I'm happy that I don't travel around with the two
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: of you. I think you're nuts.
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: I don't know why you would got into that car.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: What are you crazy?
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: We did.
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: Don't you remember Randy?
• 46:27
  Speaker 6: We did.
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: We sat in that car a while thinking like, I know.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Cause then off to the side, there were two dogs
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: humping each other.
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: Don't you remember? I was like, Oh my God, get
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: the camera.
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: Go back to RuPaul. What are you two doing? Oh
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: my God.
• 46:41
  Speaker 6: I mean, it does connect with drag race in the
• 46:45
  Speaker 6: sense that, you know, every season of drag race, you, you,
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: hear stories that these incredibly talented creative artists face a
• 46:53
  Speaker 6: lot of discrimination and a lot of challenges to become
• 46:56
  Speaker 6: who they are and have a lot of courage.
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: There's another very specific connection because during the making of this,
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: which took us over four years, we met a lot
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: of drag queens there. We filmed at drag shows. And
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: we followed around three drag queens, and one in particular
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: who I was really taken by. She was just amazing.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: And she was a recovering crystal meth addict. She was
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: in recovery. She hadn't been high for.
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: A long time. And we followed her around.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: We actually filmed a lot with her. She's only in
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: the film like a snippet.
• 47:42
  Speaker 5: But during the course of it, at one point.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: You know, she said to me, you know, I was
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: thinking about auditioning for Drag Race.
• 47:51
  Speaker 5: And I was like, well, if you want to do that,
• 47:54
  Speaker 5: you can do that.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: But I, you know, I will need to normally I
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: kind of participate in when we're looking at the casting
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: tapes and stuff like that. I said, I won't be
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: able to participate. But I totally encourage you. And without
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: me ever saying anything to anyone, she got cast. Get out.
• 48:17
  Speaker 5: She did really well in the competition.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 48:20
  Speaker 5: And people loved her. Her name's Lexi Love.
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: Which one? Who was she? Who was she? I can't remember.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: She's barely in.
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: She's like backstage.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: Okay. She makes a joke about how she looks like
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: one of the girls in Sex and the City.
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: I'm forgetting. But she's barely in it.
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: Miranda.
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: Miranda.
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 48:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Anyway, we shot incredible footage with her, but it's like
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: for a different film.
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Because she told us so many insane stories about her.
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: Oh, my gosh.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Crazy stories. We'll probably do something with that at some point.
• 48:58
  Speaker 5: But anyway.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: She went on to become quite, she's now quite a success.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, she was a pretty success, well-known queen in
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: that area, but she's now known throughout the country.
• 49:12
  Speaker 5: Cool.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: Good for her.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I wanted to ask you before, just
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: to skip back for one second. Um, if you had
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: been able to locate Jeff, And you did have his–
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: would you have then interviewed him, do you think, if
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: he had agreed to it?
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 49:46
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: We sincerely tried to reach him multiple times.
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: And I believe he was aware of that and avoided that.
• 49:57
  Speaker 7: Because we found an address and we– outside– yeah, we
• 50:02
  Speaker 7: found a bunch of things, a bunch of leads, different properties, and–
• 50:10
  Speaker 7: We sent FedEx packages.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God. I am never getting in a car
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: with the two of you. Not that you've invited me.
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: No, thanks.
• 50:18
  Speaker 5: As long as Ben's not behind the wheel, you're fine.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: What is this idea that I'm not a good driver?
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: It came up somewhere else the other day.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: So let me ask you one more question. Okay.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: What is it about this that sticks with you? I'm
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: sure there's so much about it. Maybe that's a silly question,
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: but is it anything that just kind of keeps you
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: up at night? Maybe it's the fact that Jeff is
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: free or when you look back at this experience in
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: this story, is it the injustice of it or what is,
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: what sticks with you?
• 50:49
  Speaker 6: You know, for me, what sticks is that when we
• 50:54
  Speaker 6: read the book and it was, the book's called A
• 50:56
  Speaker 6: Dark Room in Glittable City, I say, what is Glittable City?
• 50:59
  Speaker 6: And the understanding that the disco ball, the mirror ball
• 51:02
  Speaker 6: was invented there for a long time was just thinking like,
• 51:07
  Speaker 6: how does this tie into the story? And I think
• 51:12
  Speaker 6: in some ways it does actually. And that's why we
• 51:14
  Speaker 6: ended up putting a, glittable in every single interview if
• 51:18
  Speaker 6: you can spot them that all over the place because
• 51:21
  Speaker 6: the idea is like you know a single beam of
• 51:23
  Speaker 6: light hits this thing and it shatters in all directions
• 51:27
  Speaker 6: and that's like this story because you've got one event
• 51:31
  Speaker 6: that happens it's one thing happened in that room with
• 51:36
  Speaker 6: those three people and then you have all these different ideas,
• 51:42
  Speaker 6: all these different stories, all these different fragments, some of
• 51:45
  Speaker 6: which are more true than others, you know?
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:48
  Speaker 6: And it's like sort of trying to piece together the
• 51:52
  Speaker 6: story from all these shattered glimpses or reflections.
• 51:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Louisville feels also just glittery in some way, right?
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:07
  Speaker 5: I mean, so many times when you see true crime stories... It's.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: The crime and it's that small circle of the crime,
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: the key players just specifically to the crime.
• 52:22
  Speaker 5: But I feel like the film we made is about
• 52:25
  Speaker 5: the community.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: It is, yeah. I agree.
• 52:28
  Speaker 5: The way it sort of.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: Echoes out and the impact it has on the community,
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: but also just like how.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: By looking at something like this, you can get to
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: know a little bit more about the place and the people. And,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: you know, crimes never happen. Even though this crime happened,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: you know, in a room, in a house, and it
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: was isolated, it really, it happens in a community. And
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: it was really great to get to learn the community
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: and create a profile.
• 53:08
  Speaker 5: Of the community.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, yeah.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: I think that's what I really, yes, I, that's what
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: I think struck me. Thank you for putting words to
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: it because I, it, the community doesn't take on the
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: character that it did normally in, in the crime documentaries
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: that I watch this, you gave the community character and
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: it made it also, I think maybe it made the
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: whole thing more palpable in a way because it's such,
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: it was so vicious.
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: And scary and, and not pleasant.
• 53:46
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: But you let us.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: Into sort of the background and, and the community of
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: where it happened. And there was, there's so much good there.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: So I thought that was so well done.
• 53:57
  Speaker 6: You guys.
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: You're very welcome. So will you, uh, I don't, what
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: is your, what are you working on now? Can you
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: tell me? You don't have to.
• 54:06
  Speaker 6: No, we have a series that hasn't been announced yet, but, uh, Well, actually,
• 54:11
  Speaker 6: it kind of has, actually.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: It has, because we showed a sneak peek at Tribeca
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: Film Festival.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 54:17
  Speaker 6: It's called Not a Very Good Murderer, and it's about
• 54:22
  Speaker 6: someone who is not a very good murderer. So in
• 54:26
  Speaker 6: this series, no one actually is murdered.
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: Is it true?
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: It's a true crime, but with no murder. Yeah, it's
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: a true story.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: And we sort of follow Ronan Farrow as he sort
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: of investigates. And it's a really unusual series. It's about
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: their relationship, him and this woman.
• 54:53
  Speaker 6: Who's a former beauty queen in Arizona.
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 54:57
  Speaker 6: And he starts off, investigating one story and then quickly
• 55:03
  Speaker 6: realizes that the story he's following is not the story.
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: She is the story.
• 55:09
  Speaker 7: Wow.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: When is it?
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: Is it out? When's it coming out?
• 55:12
  Speaker 5: Next year.
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: Will you come back?
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: Oh yes, please. You're so good. It's such an honor
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: to be on the show.
• 55:21
  Speaker 7: Oh, please.
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: The honor is mine. As you know, I appreciate you
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: so much. All right, guys. Well, well done. Congratulations to
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: you both.
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much.