Latest / Fit Happens: Why CEOs and Leaders Succeed or Fail / How Scott Pulsipher Found His Fit as CEO of a 200,000-Student University
Transcript
- Jason Baumgarten [0:00:00] I'm Jason Baumgarten and you're listening to Fit Happens, the podcast where top leaders, investors and board directors share the stories, surprises and hard earned lessons behind finding the right fit. Let's get into it. Leadership isn't about being the best, it's about being the best fit for the moment. Today on Fit Happens, we're exploring how fit shows up in a career defining way with Scott Pulsipher, the CEO of Western Governors University. Scott, welcome to the show. Scott Pulsipher [0:00:33] It's great to be with you. Thanks Jason, for having me. Jason Baumgarten [0:00:37] Absolutely. Well, I'd love to start with something kind of fun which is what was your first job ever? Scott Pulsipher [0:00:44] Oh, my first job ever was probably when I was 14. I was like a part time bookkeeper for my aunt's interior design decorating store in California. So pretty good gig as a 14 year old. Earned enough money for some activities on the weekend, I would say. Jason Baumgarten [0:01:03] And I'd be curious, Scott, as you sort of started your career, what did you think your superpower was? What was that defining strength that you leaned on? Scott Pulsipher [0:01:15] You know, I think I probably started feeling like I was really good at learning new industries and new technologies, new products, if you will. I think I honed a lot of that skill as a consultant early in my post college career, if you will. I worked at Monitor Company straight out of undergraduate and I seemed to gain an awareness that I had a knack for kind of developing a quick understanding of a whole bunch of different industries and kind of the processes and the value chains that drive them and the economics that ultimately allowed those companies to thrive. And that seemed to be something that was going to shape what I pursued and what I found interesting. And it certainly served me well, this ability to just try to get to really what matters and what drives the value for the customers being served and what are the practices and processes that drive the organization of the company that provides that product and service. So that I call it learning or I don't know what you call that, this ability just to deconstruct, if you will, something that we maybe see an end product of. And I was always interested — it's like, well, how did that end up there? Jason Baumgarten [0:02:26] It's definitely true that everybody's got to figure out what is the job to be done, what is the thing that needs doing. And I think you've always been fantastic at breaking that down and figuring out what the most critical priority is. I think leaders always go on interviews and talk about how amazing things are and it's always easier from the C suite. I'd love to hear a story. It can be from early in your career or something more recent where you weren't crushing it, where something just wasn't clicking, it wasn't working and it made you stop and pause and think about what was going on. Scott Pulsipher [0:03:00] Oh, am I only allowed one of those stories? Jason Baumgarten [0:03:05] You can come back and do a second. Don't worry. Scott Pulsipher [0:03:07] Yeah, I've probably a few times kind of pop into my mind. I think for me, somewhat the most seminal one probably occurred as I transitioned from Sterling Commerce into Amazon and I was going from leading the products and marketing function at Sterling Commerce, which is about a 600, $650 million enterprise software company, and then going into the general management position to lead a new and emerging business that was called Amazon Web Store at the time. And what was notable is that I felt like I had been crushing it, if you will, at Sterling Commerce, that I had gone from a startup being acquired into that organization. It kind of felt like I was developing my leadership capacity. How do I connect and motivate and inspire the individuals that were on my team, that I felt like I'd kind of figured this out and then I was going to bring all that to kind of power things forward at Amazon and what we were doing with the startup inside of it. And the reality was probably the exact opposite. It was a bit of a soul crushing experience. But it was seminal in the sense that as part of the program of developing leaders at Amazon, I had the opportunity to participate in a leadership development program. And in that experience you kind of go through a simulation. You interact with 26 other colleagues that are also ambitious, aspiring leaders inside of Amazon and all incredibly capable individuals. But one of you, and I was that one, was going to be in a position where you in fact then were observed or you interacted with so many that then you were one individual who was going to get feedback from all other 26 participants plus three or four coaches that were part of it, et cetera. And they kind of warn you about this up front. But you know, long story short, the feedback was honest, but it was also really brutal that everything I thought I was good at, I think the reality or the perception was the exact opposite. And I'll be frank, Jason. It was so hard sitting through the feedback sessions that twice I was so emotionally drained that I had to take a break. Otherwise it just felt like you were going to break down. And I still just remember how after that first week of that session that I'd lost so much confidence in my capabilities, I'd lost any sense that I was who I thought I was as a leader, as a manager, or even just as a colleague. I remember even going out to dinner with my wife after you'd come home from being off site for this week, and she herself just commented, like, what happened? It just seems like you're a shell of what, who you were, and your confidence had been completely rocked. And I will say, it just felt like maybe what I was aspiring to be — a CEO, a general manager of an organization trying to inspire people to do great things — that maybe it wasn't in my toolkit, it wasn't my skill set. However, I will say that without that kind of feedback and that data, I would have never started to discover that, in fact, all the dimensions that were necessary for me to develop into the person I wanted to be, into the colleague I wanted to be, into the leader I wanted to be, and quite frankly, Jason, a husband, a father, everything else, it was so important to kind of get exposed to all of that. And what was also really important was having a manager who was so adept at recognizing that, hey, you have all this inherent skill and you have all this inherent talent and capability and worth, and now we have the kind of data to start working with, like building up from that foundation and helping you become a better version of yourself. And without that — honestly, without my wife and probably without that manager, that leader, Tom Taylor — I don't know how one recovers from that kind of experience to where you feel like everything you thought you were, you weren't, but in fact, you could then build from there. And that, to me was incredible. Now, I wish I could say that, hey, only once do you live that, because oh no, you get subsequent experiences where you also feel like you're not crushing it. You know, going into another startup and everything you thought you learned from that, you apparently don't know how to apply it to the next thing. But that still stands out to me as one of these inflection points in my development as a human that has really, really helped me lead at WGU and quite frankly, like I mentioned, be a better father, better husband, better friend. Jason Baumgarten [0:07:52] You know, those moments of feedback are so powerful, especially early when we think we can do anything. You know, I always laugh. It's like the elementary school kid who says, I'm going to be an NFL player or maybe an NBA player. And in business, everyone sort of starts by saying, I'm going to be a CEO or I'm going to, you know, do something amazing. And that's a great ambition. Did that moment of feedback also help you think about what situations or positions you wanted to put yourself in a little more critically? Both so you could be successful, but also so you could really tune and recognize what you were good at. Scott Pulsipher [0:08:30] It helped me actually think differently about the context in which I needed to develop the skills that you know. So how did you start seeking out circumstances and the roles and context that would actually help the weaknesses that you are now exposed to develop and become even strengths? You thought differently about that. I thought differently. I thought beyond the scope of even leading Amazon Web Store at that time. You started thinking about what are the adjacent connections and networks that you need to be affiliated with to foster this development of capability that wasn't going to be core to the organization I was running, but it also helped me realize — one of our early interactions also helped me realize — that I was likely better suited to an environment where I could establish the rules, if you will, that I could work on influencing what were the principles of leadership and what were the tenets that were going to drive the organization. So I was more drawn to that startup, high growth kind of environment versus leading inside of a well established organization that had all of its culture and practices. So even that became more apparent to me to where even two years — yeah, it was about two years after that experience — I realized like for me to feel even like I was thriving, I was going to be seeking out those high growth startup-like experiences. Not that Amazon wasn't at the time, but it was kind of like I need to have a little more influence on the types of practices that we want to develop. The other opposite side of that though is I will say it helped me think differently about how am I supposed to adapt in my engagement and my connection and leadership given the context. And so sometimes it just said if I can't control the circumstance of the context, how do I need to think about my influence or my role in that context? One benefit, not that I didn't know this before, but it felt like it just became so much more important that the skill set amplified in the sense that I learned out of that, that I just need to be much more aware of the other individual in all the circumstances I was in, that for me to be better or be the kind of version of myself that I wanted to be, I'd say it that way — I just need to be much more focused on what is the objective and the thing that this other individual needs to see happen. How do I help that come about and how do I put them at the focus of what my role is in that? And so it's weird to say it, but it just helped me become less self centered. It's just not about me. If anything, I would just say it pivoted from a mind of, hey, I'm going to be the one, I'm this leader, et cetera, to actually I'm just a steward. And a steward thinks about, given my role here, how should I behave? That's from Uvo Levin — he particularly says that, like, that is really consequential for me and my life since these kinds of experiences I've had is like, all right, given the circumstance and given the role and given the institution of which I'm a part of, how should I behave? And if I focus more on that stewardship, then I start realizing that I'm helping other people succeed more than I'm worrying about my own success. I assume Jason has all those controls because I'm just here in the passenger seat on this one. Jason Baumgarten [0:11:55] Scott, you started to get into this that things were working at Amazon. You were starting to pivot from that feedback and certain things were clearly energizing you more than others. And you started to ask yourself those questions before WGU even entered the picture. Was there a specific moment or realization when you knew WGU was the context you'd been kind of preparing for? Scott Pulsipher [0:12:20] Yes. And it may not be what one imagines it is, because in some ways it almost had less to do with the role than it had to do with WGU. And so maybe that still answers the question you're asking. But I say that because I think if I focus more on, if you will, the role and the opportunity for leadership and influence and driving strategy and creating a new dynamic culture that people could thrive in, et cetera. That realization wasn't what, in fact convinced me that WGU was going to be a great fit. It was actually attending a commencement. And it's just so unique. It still just stands out in my mind. And now it's almost 10 years ago that I first attended that commencement in February of 2016. And this was still during the recruiting process, I'd met with many members of the board, and so they invited me to come visit a commencement in Orlando. And you spend the night before the commencement kind of mingling among the graduates and talking to them and asking a simple question — just like, tell me your story. And you'd start just hearing these incredible uplifting and edifying experiences about how education had catalyzed a change in their life in a way that they always hoped it would be, but for many different reasons they were unable to access it or enroll in it or progress itself, etc. And then at the right time, a right offering came along with the right design that allowed them to fit education into their already busy lives. And then when they were able to advance to that and attain this credential, they just felt this level of confidence that now they could show to the world that they had all this competency and skill and talent that they had yet been able to previously communicate. And then the world saw them, if you will, in their kind of full talent and glory and everything else like that. But what was also telling is they had not just parents there, but they also had children there. And you started just seeing how this seminal moment in their parents' life was manifesting a true memory as something that was going to be a catalyst for their own children. And you started just kind of learning about how now they're getting these great jobs and advancing economically and having a degree of satisfaction that — I'm realizing dreams that previously felt unattainable. And I just remember walking away from that with this simple experience to say the attainment of their degree for them seemed to matter more to them than mine did to me. Somehow, through all the hardship and the barriers and the challenges and everything else, that having their talent and their attainment fully realized was just a milestone that I had never actually given the same level of weight to, if you will. And it just struck me that there is that truth that talent is truly universal. There's just that inherent worth and capability in every human. And here was an organization that was helping all of those individuals, regardless of their circumstances, background and everything else, start to live that reality. And that to me was like so empowering personally, that it just connected to say, man, if there were ever a professional pursuit that I wanted to be a part of, that also had so much meaning — that was it. And then you just hope from that point on — I was hoping that mostly all the other skill sets for me fit into the role enough for the board to go like, all right, let's take some crazy bet on some former technologist, startup person to come run already a reasonably sized organization — and thank goodness they did. Jason Baumgarten [0:16:00] And Scott, a lot of people have heard of WGU, but a lot haven't. Just give us a second on some of the amazing outcomes and statistics. Scott Pulsipher [0:16:12] Yeah, and you probably remember this from when we were talking before about this — too quickly an individual can hear "online university" and go like, oh, that's the legacy version of that, that could be perceived as not high quality or enrolled a lot of people but didn't graduate a lot. What's unique about Western Governors University is it basically was founded literally by governors. So the name itself has that heritage or that legacy — governors of 19 Western states and one territory contributed the seed money to create this new institution that was going to leverage two things. One was the Internet. It is a digitally native institution in higher education. So it's going to leverage that. Why was that really important? Because you could basically reach and teach individuals wherever they are — you now overcame barriers of time and location and space and everything else to say actually the Internet is going to be able to democratize access the way nothing else could previously. Second, they anchored more on a competency based model which basically said if you're serving working adults and many who have some college but no degree, they likely are actually demonstrating a lot of the proficiency that we grade first time, full time students on. But these individuals have been learning a ton. So competency based — what the real point is — is you need to demonstrate proficiency in the learning outcome. And time can vary. Like time is not a measure of learning, proficiency is the measure of learning. And so those two anchored things form this institution, Western Governors University. It was first accredited in the year 2000. It was incorporated in 1997. Fast forward really quickly. It's now the leading institution in the country in terms of graduating more teachers, especially in STEM. It's the only teachers college that licenses teachers in all 50 states. It's a leading nursing college and health professions institution across the country. I think we account for more than 10% of all Bachelor's degrees in nursing in the country. It's a leading institution across computer science and cybersecurity, being an NSA center of excellence. And we do the same across business and MBA programs and business administration, accounting, et cetera. Today WGU is the largest online university in the country. We serve about 200,000 full time students concurrently right now. We'll graduate nearly 70,000 individuals this year. But what's more telling, Jason, is that those graduates are also achieving income gains and income improvements that are higher than the national averages. They're employed at rates equal to or better than national averages. Their employers — the vast majority — are saying they're ready for the jobs that they're entering into, and that nearly 100% of them would hire WGU graduates again. And so it's created this incredible model of education that personalizes and adapts the journey to every individual to increase the probability that they complete. And in so doing, they're also readied for the opportunities and the jobs that will advance themselves economically. And it's doing that regardless of your background, your circumstance, and otherwise. So it's a pretty inspiring organization to be a part of. Jason Baumgarten [0:19:25] I couldn't think of a better guest to talk about Fit Happens than what you do at WGU because you're unlocking 70,000 moments. I mean, every one of those learners goes on to have, you know, not just more money, but I certainly remember talking to students who would talk about being in a job that was fine, but it wasn't what they aspired to, wasn't what made them — they weren't unlocking their whole selves. And then through this degree, they got to do something that really was their moment. And so I think that's really powerful. Scott Pulsipher [0:20:02] Yeah, you can't quite — the viewers of this won't be able to quite see it, but over here on my right shoulder, there's actually a little counter that we have on the wall that actually every day at 8:15am it updates with the number of graduates. And from our first graduate to now, we're just past 470,000. It's 470,019 graduates today. I fully anticipate, hopefully, that I'll still be here when that will tick to 1 million. So, yeah, so to your point of fit is like, you know, not many get to participate in an organization where they can say they were part of helping 1 million individuals change their lives for the better. Jason Baumgarten [0:20:42] Scott, Amazon was certainly a masterclass in customer obsession. And I'd be curious if there's something you didn't fully appreciate when you were there, but coming to WGU, you look back and think, wow, that's a very powerful lesson I brought with me. Scott Pulsipher [0:20:59] Yeah. There are probably, I would say, two things. One is that many organizations out there may give lip service to customer obsession. But doing that so consistently and deeply across so many different kind of business lines and products and service offerings — that's something that was incredible in terms of experiencing at Amazon. I will say that meeting Bob Mendenhall, my predecessor, and then learning about WGU, whether they understood that or modeled it, or whether they just also had the same obsession about students as the primary beneficiary of everything that we do at WGU, that is really, really clear. When you came into WGU, now, as WGU also has a broader portfolio of pathway services and value added models and things that we do — that still is paramount. You have to be really, really, really, really clear as to what is it that delivers value for the customer that you're serving. And in our case, we've been absolutely clear in all circumstances that the student is the primary beneficiary of everything. And that also has to be true even while we're serving employers with highly readied graduates into their workforce too. Because if you don't first serve the individual, serving the employers first won't do much for the individual. And so that is, I guess the thing that you really learn — the operative word in that student obsession or customer obsession is the obsession part. But the other thing that I think we took — that I took away from it — is that they obsess about process as much as they obsess about customers. And I think the reason that's really important is because if organizations become too dependent upon an individual or certain thinking that might be timely and purposeful at the time, but they aren't obsessing about process, then you're not going to build a scalable organization. There's just this notion that basically if something kept failing or you had a problem, or there were gaps in the customer value proposition, it was the default thing — well, there must be a process problem. The benefit of focusing on process basically says you can build a process with all of its associated tasks, activities and reporting. Even to say if you can build that and repeat that thousands, if not tens of thousands and millions of times, it becomes highly scalable. And it's not then dependent upon individuals that come and go. And so if you want to build a lasting product, a lasting process, a lasting organization, process matters a ton. And I think this is one of those weird things that sometimes process is also held up as like, oh, it's so bureaucratic. But in fact really, really good process is the least bureaucratic because the process just helps everyone understand what is the role that you have and what are you supposed to do and contribute. So I think that's something that we are learning at WGU. I think we're roughly four times larger than when I started. And so you better figure out what your processes need to be for you to scale because otherwise it's really hard to hire that many people and keep serving that many students. So process matters. Jason Baumgarten [0:24:11] Scott, can you bring that to life? I was so struck with your early passion for entrepreneurial startup ventures and the notion that many startups find that it's all about the founder and process is terrible. And how do you think about bringing that to life for a listener who's thinking about, oh man, he just lost me, he's a bureaucrat, right? Scott Pulsipher [0:24:35] Maybe I can capture this by just thinking about the transition from Bob to me. Bob was very much the startup CEO of WGU. I don't know what that would make me. Maybe it's a scaling or a growth — I don't know. But what I will say is that one of the things that was notable is that a lot of startup CEOs are really, really good at solution and product design. They may even be good at the go to market and the selling and marketing and sales and delivery, who knows. What's notable though, I would say, is that they're also pretty autocratic in their decision making and alignment of effort. And I was actually surprised — even of how big WGU was when I joined — how many decisions were ending up on Bob's desk. And I was like, whoa, that's not at all scalable. And then I was also even joking — I can remember with someone bringing questions to me and me flatly saying like, what is it about my skill set that you think I'm the one who should make that decision? It's like, I'm sorry — I want to do what you want to do. Like, that's what we want to do. And I remember even having a very explicit conversation with our head of marketing about something like that. Scott, what do you want to do? And I'm like, I want to do what you want to do — you are empowered to actually make that decision. Such that then this transition from that startup anchor, autocratic, almost like a CEO who's directing and aligning a lot of things, isn't actually scalable because that person is also constrained by time. We don't get any more time than the next individual, or even an entry level hire. And so if you really want to scale, I think you have to build a model by which you can delegate down and throughout the organization the decision making authority and the accountability that comes with that. Because if you want autonomy, that has to happen. The autonomy that the leaders are desperately wanting — well, you have to have some checks and balances in place around process to say, all right, you're actually designing a process that we know will deliver this value proposition, will address this challenge, will tackle this opportunity, whatever it is, but you're designing a way that's repeatable and scalable and you have to have the autonomy or the decision making authority to design that. But paired with that, you have to have the accountability for impact. Because if what you design isn't working, then your process needs to be fixed to fix the outcome. And so I think what we recognize — or at least I recognized when I came in — was like, man, for this to actually keep growing and scaling and innovating the way we wanted to, there's no way that I could be making all these decisions and driving everything else. But what I do need is really good governance around management practices. And to me, that comes through really effective processes. Whether it's in your product lifecycle, whether it's in your student acquisition lifecycle, whether it's in your learning lifecycle, et cetera. What are the things we're designing that are highly repeatable and scalable so that as leaders change in and out, as individuals come and go, we're continuing to innovate around what that process is because that's what helps us scale. So with that comes that delegated decision making and accountability and it's worked. I mean, I don't get more time in my day, so if I can only handle three to four things at a time, what are the three to four things I'm uniquely suited to do and how do I get out of the way of those that are uniquely suited to do the other three to four things that WGU as a whole also needs to be doing? That's kind of how I think about it. Jason Baumgarten [0:28:10] No, I think it's a great example for people to reflect on. And you're touching on this question of what are you great at? What are your superpowers? And people often talk about flow. Those moments where the challenges we face balance with the skills we have in these high intensity moments where time evaporates. And sometimes it's something like skiing or playing chess. But for you in your day to day work environment, is there a moment where you recall — the minute I'm describing that — like that team, that project, that outcome, we had it, it was special. Unpack that a little bit. Scott Pulsipher [0:28:53] I love the notion of flow. I will say I think I'm hard pressed to identify moments where I felt like I've been totally in the flow. And I say that because I think if there were moments that maybe get my creative energy going, that's a period where I can feel that state of flow, if you will. But that's not necessarily the only one. I can feel also when we're dealing with some process design or we're dealing with some other kind of our own people practices and how we think about other process models. But I think the areas where I personally have developed interest in — I guess I would say, because there's a quick arc here — I just want to share a little bit, Jason, because early on I felt like I was not the creative innovative thinker; I was the one who could be a great complement to that creative innovative thinker because I could sift through all those and figure out which of those ideas actually had any market potential, if you will. If I had a CEO at my first startup, he'd like bring 10 ideas a week and I'd shoot down nine of them, like, yeah, that one's going to be awesome. And I could figure out how to operationalize it. So I share that simply because I've discovered later in my career that in fact I'm more creative than I thought I was. Where I now feel like I flow, it's actually in these sessions where we're dreaming up what future state things could be and we're applying all the dimensions of the kind of customer obsession, the student obsession. We're applying dimensions of process design and core differentiation and value proposition and a whole bunch of different things. In those moments I found that I really, really thrive in those kinds of environments where you're envisioning future state of stuff. You don't know all the parameters. I'm really comfortable with accepting a lot of risk in that where half of your assumptions are going to be wrong. Because directionally I feel like we can start organizing in a way that I start feeling like — in those moments you give us a whiteboard and we start writing all the dimensions of like what are the problems to be solved and what are the unique new opportunities that are out there that the customers aren't even aware of yet, nor could they articulate it. What are the core product differentiators that we would have and how would we deliver that uniquely? Like that's the area that I thrive. An example of that would be how we've been envisioning work based learning in the future of education post secondary and the investments that we're making around the core technology platforms and how we design that and how you need both policy working with you as well as institutional working. And that stuff to me is a big hairy mess that I kind of really enjoy weaving a path through it. So that's to me, like, give me a whiteboard and that's what I love to do. Or at least it kind of gets all the energy flowing in a way. Now that's not to say that I don't enjoy the other things, but they may not feel like the same flow state as others do because they're hard work. If you're talking about motivating, inspiring people and all the practices you want to have in place — it's like, well, it may not seem like a really big challenge, but man, it's really rewarding when you start seeing the benefit of doing the hard work to design and implement practices, cycle the feedback, everything else. That's really hard work. But I wouldn't say it feels the same way. This energizing thing around envisioning and creating future solutions and offerings and businesses — quite frankly, it just varies. I guess I enjoy all of them, even if the feeling is different. Jason Baumgarten [0:32:36] We see this with so many leaders and institutions that the moment that needs to be solved, the leader at that moment, sometimes a leader changes and adapts to what's needed and sometimes the person just isn't the right person anymore for what that organization needs. And it sounds like as WGU has not only scaled four times as large, but is now facing new constraints and opportunities in education, you're embracing this other side of you about how to innovate and be creative, which I'm not surprised at actually hearing you say that. I think you were always pretty excited about the future. And when I think about the visioning exercise you did, even going to WGU, you were thinking 10 years out then about what you'd see in front of you. Scott Pulsipher [0:33:28] So yeah, it is interesting on this point really quickly — and you probably see this a lot more than I do — but it is interesting is like, the thing that I enjoy and do a lot of. But also I'm very cognizant of the oversight that's needed around scaling our operations and continuing to deliver our core value proposition, et cetera. But then the dialogue with the board is very much like, yeah, 40 if not 50% of your time, you need to be working on that R&D innovation portfolio because we need a lot of at-bats in that. And even if you have a .300 batting average, that's going to be great. Because it's almost like saying the core of WGU is ultimately tech-enabled, student-centered innovation. And we certainly want to do that at speed and scale. And so that's the area, I think, that they feel like — and I feel like — I'm uniquely suited to do. And so there's some nice fit there. And it doesn't mean that you can do that and completely abandon the oversight. It just means like, all right, how do you figure out the other leadership things that need to be in place to ensure that sufficient time is given to the thing that I might be uniquely suited to do, while also scaling up and developing all the leadership that's needed for other things that are also part of WGU's priorities? But it's an interesting arc to kind of see where even the board with me are getting like, all right, what's the next phase of leadership at WGU? Jason Baumgarten [0:34:52] So, Scott, that brings us to, you know, the importance of the team. And often when we think about the team, we start with, you know, we need these skills or these experiences. And it's a very linear process. Sometimes towards the end of that journey, we realize the thing we're really recruiting for is a little bit different than what we started with. And the superpower you need to recruit for isn't what's obvious in a set of skills or experiences. Is there a moment as you were building the team over the years, over the last decade, where you shifted what you thought you needed to what you really needed? Scott Pulsipher [0:35:31] That's probably happened multiple times, and that would be an interesting kind of question for you because maybe I'm still getting it wrong. But I will say that there's a little bit of a success story that we had recently where we actually published — we made a list of the top organizations to work for for culture. And WGU ended up at 89 on the list. We're not a huge organization. I think we're approaching 10,000 employees. I only reference that because I think one of the things that I may have thought of when I started is I indexed heavily on the expertise that was needed to lead program development or lead the provostial chief academic functions, or lead the marketing and enrollment function, or drive new business innovation, et cetera. That there was this expertise and quite frankly, that was probably influenced by my own thinking around, oh, my unique skills. I have expertise in certain things, but you hire those individuals and then you realize that they may be terrible at motivating and inspiring individuals to do the great work they already want to do. Coming to a place like WGU, we already have a high score of individual intrinsic motivation because they want to be a part of the mission and purpose of WGU. But if we squander that because we index so heavily on like, oh, no, I'm going to tell you how to do this and I'm going to drive this thing and all of you need to follow me on this thing, then you realize the reason they're here is to be able to provide that space to innovate, to do the thing that we already want them to do, which is to help people change their lives for the better. And so if they index high on expertise, but they were really low on figuring out how to motivate and inspire individuals, we got like one third of the impact that we really wanted. I have likely shifted now to where sufficient expertise, but really indexed on how do you motivate and inspire people, which to me is the anchor, the foundation of leadership in the first place — which is leadership is about helping individuals realize a better version, a better future, giving some sense as to what our priorities are that we need to pursue to realize that future, and then empowering them to drive the innovation, the execution, the accountability that's necessary to realize that future. That's really, really important. We recognize, oh, we're going to index higher on how are you, as a leader, influencing people for the better? Because we're in the people business to begin with. And so if you're not good at that as a leader and as a human, then it won't matter how deep your expertise is on curriculum design or in marketing or anything else — it won't matter because you won't actually harness the power of all those individuals into a force that becomes a massive contributor to the pace of innovation that we're trying to drive. So that's pretty notable — we've had a lot of really talented individuals that have fallen flat because they couldn't connect with the people they're trying to lead. Jason Baumgarten [0:38:40] It just goes to show that experience and skills are part of the puzzle, but certainly not the whole piece. And I was going back to our founder conversation. You know, most founders start companies with almost no prior experience or relevant experience to what they're doing and discover things along the way. And yet certainly when we put job specs together, it always starts with what's all the experience and skills that people need? And so sometimes inverting that to say, well, what is necessary but not sufficient? And what is sufficient? To your point on the skills and Scott Pulsipher [0:39:12] experience, I was just thinking about a recent conversation I had with one of our leaders and they were trying to hire or they were trying to at least establish a criteria that says, oh, we need to see experience at scale. I said, if you're not careful, you'll end up missing the most talented or the best fit individual to this point. Because I highlighted that prior to WGU, the largest organization that I directly led was maybe 250 people because I led all products and marketing at a $650 million revenue company. And then I led a startup inside of a behemoth at Amazon which is already like five times or who knows how much bigger than when I was working there. But you weren't the one leading at the top. You were leading a startup inside of that, et cetera. And then you leave to do another startup. So if that was the criteria — has this person led with this many direct reports and this much budget, et cetera — then you would have missed all the reasoning ability, the intuition, the capacity for innovation that was necessary, et cetera, to maybe even being willing to kind of drop constraints or plow through sacred cows, whatever it is. If you're not careful, you'll use the wrong criteria to source and evaluate candidates. And so it was a notable time where I was like, yeah, I would have never been a candidate at WGU if the criteria was, oh no, we can only recruit somebody who's had prior experience including leading an organization of 1,000, 2,000 plus individuals directly. Like, well, you know, say goodbye to Scott as a candidate. And that would have been — maybe it would have been fine and WGU would be great. You never get to see the multiverse of corporate leadership, I guess. Jason Baumgarten [0:41:04] It's such an important lesson though, because I think really understanding that potential matters so much in making all of these critical decisions. And it happens all across the career spectrum. It's not just CEOs, it's at every step — how are you weighing potential versus experience, motivation versus achievement, readiness, even personal readiness — you know, does somebody have the right support system. I do think a lot of people, whether it's a board, a set of investors, they certainly come to me and say we need somebody who's already done all these things. I'm like, well if they've already done it, why are they motivated to do it again? And you know, to your point, some of the best leaders we can all think of never did what they are doing now previously. And that certainly many people have said, well actually the beginner's mind or the ability to see it novelly is often more important than just bringing something from my past and dropping it on. And even your experience brings some of Amazon, but certainly not all of Amazon in any way, shape or form. You were really selective in what you picked to bring with you and what you didn't. Scott Pulsipher [0:42:13] Yeah, and I think even if I wanted to do all of the Amazon playbook, I would have likely stayed there versus, like, another startup seems well suited for me and a fit in terms of what I want to do. And so what do you take in terms of learning from that? And there are some things that we would prefer. Some of the candidates we have interview with us have that education bias — they've been in higher ed for a long time, but man, they're so influenced by the centuries-old model of the way things were designed. Like it's really, really hard for them to drop some of those biases when we're trying to say, man, we need to kind of innovate without constraints, including the things we ourselves have designed. And you try to suss that out in the interviewing because if they can't drop everything they've done previously to reason for what the future will be — or rather not even reason, more like intuit — what we could be designing or should be designing, then that's really the type of thinking that is a great fit for us. And so we're learning that — be careful you don't over index on someone who's worked at a large organization, driven this curriculum innovation, etc. Because if it's done within these constructs, it's not going to map well to what we're trying to do at WGU. And that same is true regardless of which level you're recruiting for. You know, so even as leaders — if I'm imagining my coming into WGU, it probably really came down to: one, it felt like it gave me a space to innovate around the products and offerings and the way in which we were going to serve students. Two, it had a huge opportunity for me to develop as a leader who cares a ton about people and motivating and inspiring them. Three, that extension of that caring about people went to the whole purpose and mission of WGU — the whole reason WGU exists is to change lives for the better. And that's something that I want to be a part of. And so thank goodness they didn't sit there like, well, where have you done this before? Like, nowhere. Everything I'm telling you, I've never done before. But it's incredibly motivating, inspiring, and I think I have pretty good reasoning ability. So yeah, those are the challenges often in trying to find fit. Jason Baumgarten [0:44:23] Well, Scott, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you for all the parents or grandparents that are listening. You know, education has had such a powerful role in shaping careers and shaping people, but it's also changing at such a rapid rate and certainly artificial intelligence in terms of young people pursuing meaningful work for them. Any advice or perspective that you'd offer to the parents and grandparents listening, or even potentially some of the kids? Scott Pulsipher [0:44:51] I would start with this question for the parents and for the individuals themselves who are seeing education as a potential pathway for them: what job are you trying to do? In the spirit of Clay Christensen's job to be done, what job are you trying to do? Because I think if they were honest, they'd often say that they might index as much on the emerging adult experience as they do on getting a good job. So if you want the emerging adult experience, then the highly integrated value proposition of a campus based college experience — that might be the right thing for you because you care a ton about the social experience, the interaction and community, the coming of age experiences of young adults. You may care a ton about that. Now I will just say that's not the only place where they can come of age because they come of age anyway. It's just — what do you want to have the experiences that will shape them, which ones do you want to be formative for them? And if that's what you really, really care about, then you'll probably identify places that are going to be different than what WGU is going to really focus on. If your job to be done is how do you ready yourself with the knowledge, skill and ability for the opportunities that are going to be now and in the future, then it's really about the education. And you should be really, really careful to not commingle the education with all this other stuff. Because you end up getting this big monolith that in fact didn't serve you well in any of them — meaning it didn't prepare you for a job, it didn't really give you a great emerging adult experience, you weren't as connected to the community as you thought, et cetera. Like you could end up not doing well at all of that. And so I think that job to be done is really important. On the education front, I will say as a parent, I'm indexing on the education so much more because I just don't think the way the coming of age is designed is fit for purpose today for our rising adults. I think it is actually a centuries-old model — if you want to live in the 19th century, like that's what we still kind of reminisce about. I'm sorry, that's not fit for purpose. And so I think the coming of age is adapting quickly in a way that the institutions providing the legacy model have not adapted to. It's much more digitally immersive, it's much more expansive than it was before, et cetera. So I actually focus on — listen, how do you as an individual become indispensable? And you really have to think about all the technology fluency that you need, regardless of which field you're going to go into, whether you're going into health or business or law or whatever. Technological fluency is really, really important today. That is AI fluency. And you have to even be making decisions about what's the right skill development pathway that's going to give you that technological fluency. Like if I need to be tech fluent, then going to a conventional institution is not likely going to do that. So I think about that — all right, the Internet already dramatically advanced the world of work, and AI is going to do that even more. How am I going to learn all the AI fluent skill and capability for the field I want to go into? It's going to be a combination of academic experience and work. And so I think the best models are going to be the ones where the institutions who are providing those pathways are heavily integrating work experience into the learning journey. Or they're combining internships with academic, or they're doing apprentice based models, or they're doing more immersive kind of project experience. Because that is where so much of the fluency comes to fruition because you see it applied in the world of work — that's really hard to replicate in a textbook as a proxy for a purely academic experience. It's just — you need to apply the knowledge, not just gain the knowledge. So that's a long answer to that question. But I would say start with the job to be done. What is it that you really want? And second, tech fluency matters a ton. So regardless of your field, what is the combination of learning models, academic experience, service, projects, et cetera that are going to increase the applicability of the knowledge you're gaining into the opportunity you're pursuing. Jason Baumgarten [0:49:15] Well, it's an important question, so I appreciate you taking a little extra time with it. Let's end with a couple of really quick speed round questions. Leadership advice you hear often but you think actually is pretty harmful. Scott Pulsipher [0:49:28] I don't know, maybe the whole notion of refueling or self care. I actually think the best self care for me at least is when I'm actively serving other individuals. When I see actually the influence of even just some focused time with someone else and how that is a balm to their souls. I think that is the kind of refueling that every leader needs. And sometimes that's the opposite of like, oh, you need to go have your me time, et cetera. I'm like, actually I personally have found that even while so many would want something from you, it's incredibly motivational to see how your even just personal attention in a moment can make such a difference for someone with whom you're engaging. And so that's one of those things I think is what has served my soul well — it's been the opposite of this notion of like, oh, you've got to refuel and do self care. And I'm like yeah, the exercise and sleep — don't kid yourself, that's really, really important. But I think if you're always focused on how do I help other individuals be a better version of themselves, then that's all the fuel you'll need. Jason Baumgarten [0:50:33] So a little me time is you time. Is there a skill that you thought mattered earlier in your career that you've changed your mind about? Scott Pulsipher [0:50:43] Well, the analytics are still really important, but I may have thought that was something that I had as my unique skill set. And that is probably one that's more universal than not. Meaning I think individuals' capacity for analytical thinking or really strong reasoning is really high. It may just have been more developed for me earlier and I thought that's what was going to make me a great leader. And like, nah, there's a lot of great people who can do that work well. And I think that's the part where I realized I'm not uniquely suited to do a lot of those things. There are others who are better at it. It's maybe more in my integrative thinking, my visioning, et cetera — that's a different skill. Jason Baumgarten [0:51:24] One thing that surprised you the most about being the CEO of WGU. Scott Pulsipher [0:51:30] I think that one's easy. The policy work. I never anticipated that level of it. I think of my software technology days — you spent a lot of time with the analyst firms, and those are kind of influencing the perception of the space — but policy apparatus influences so heavily what goes on in education. So that was a muscle that I didn't even think I had. And so then having to develop it is like, okay, that is one thing that I did not anticipate. Jason Baumgarten [0:51:58] And then a book or TV series that has had a lot of impact on you in the last year or that you're reading and watching now that you want to share. Scott Pulsipher [0:52:06] TV series aside, I do appreciate Slow Horses. I find that kind of as a fun Apple TV series, but it hasn't changed my life. I would probably put on — I really thought Jeff Rosen's book The Pursuit of Happiness was a really good book. I think just kind of reminding us about our humanity in a way that says it starts with you and trying to really understand how to utilize your reasoning ability to moderate your passions and desires, to become content — to pursue that balanced life that says you've bettered yourself and you've done that through contributing to the world, everything else. And so I really have liked Jeff Rosen's book The Pursuit of Happiness. Jason Baumgarten [0:52:46] And then a hobby or pastime where you get to totally zone out from every other distraction, whatever it is. Scott Pulsipher [0:52:54] That's still probably golf for me. I don't play enough of it, but it's one that I can still obsess over. Jason Baumgarten [0:53:01] You're clearly a better golfer. Because when I golf, there's no zoning out. Scott Pulsipher [0:53:05] It is a lot of swearing. Throwing of clubs. Jason Baumgarten [0:53:09] Yeah. Scott Pulsipher [0:53:10] Yeah. Jason Baumgarten [0:53:10] Well, Scott, thanks for taking the time today and showing us what a meaningful role can really have and the incredible impact you've had at WGU. And it's an amazing example that leadership doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens in context. And we like to think that fit always happens. Scott Pulsipher [0:53:26] Thank you, Jason. It's always been a pleasure to associate with you. You have certainly contributed to the trajectory of my life, and I'm grateful for it. Jason Baumgarten [0:53:35] Thank you, Scott. Take care.