Latest / The Horsehuman Connection Matrix / Katie, formerly lead Turtle, now following her passion for singing with a firece gentle passion!

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Katie, formerly lead Turtle, now following her passion for singing with a firece gentle passion! · The Horsehuman Connection Matrix

• 0:03
  This is the Horse Human Connection.
• 0:06
  A captivating podcast where we extend into the world of equine assisted learning.
• 0:11
  Horse Training.
• 0:12
  and gentleness in working with these magnificent creatures.
• 0:18
  Captivating stories from the leading professionals and ordinary people alike unravel novel ideas in being with horses.
• 0:26
  The horse human connection is an idea, a place, and a voice.
• 0:32
  The idea is to support the quiet revolution and recognize the intelligence and true nature of the horse.
• 0:40
  The place is a destination farm near the Umpqua Forest and River that slows down visitors and patrons enough to experience the shift.
• 0:49
  The Voice is this podcast.
• 0:52
  Welcome to today's episode.
• 1:04
  Hi, I'm Ishi Abel with the Horse Human Connection Matrix, and today I have Katie Sontag with me, who is a singer and musician, and I just want to know a little bit more about her journey.
• 1:19
  So she's agreed to do an interview with me today.
• 1:22
  Welcome, Katie.
• 1:24
  Thanks.
• 1:24
  I'm really excited.
• 1:26
  Me too.
• 1:28
  So tell me a little bit about how you got started with music.
• 1:34
  Well, when I was eight I, my, my mom enrolled me in a summer arts camp and a part of the camp was like a theater program and We had these auditions, like I didn't know it was an audition when it was happening, but they had us all sing individually and I ended up getting picked as like Peter Pan, like the lead role in that little like song we were doing.
• 2:05
  And so that was my first exposure to like singing and, well, I was in Like little choirs and stuff.
• 2:14
  I mean, it kind of developed from there.
• 2:16
  So that was my first memory of like being seen as someone on stage who has some level of skill or that want, that people want to see on stage and sing.
• 2:26
  Yeah.
• 2:27
  Like, like, like a worthiness of an audience at eight.
• 2:30
  Yeah.
• 2:30
  And it was very, like, it was like, really, I remember being very surprised.
• 2:35
  Like my family is not musical at all.
• 2:39
  It's not something I grew up with.
• 2:42
  So I mean, I did grow up with it when I was eight, it started.
• 2:46
  And then then pretty soon after that, when I was like 11, my parents won a piano and a raffle.
• 2:55
  And so, yeah.
• 2:58
  And so then I my babysitter like taught me like heart and soul and like little things like that.
• 3:03
  And I started playing and then my parents, my parents got me piano lessons.
• 3:07
  So I played classical piano with a teacher until I was 18.
• 3:13
  And so that gave me like a really good foundation and reading music and like being like music being like a personal practice.
• 3:21
  And that was, so my high school years.
• 3:24
  Had a lot of that and also being in the musicals and taking music theory and dating musicians and singing a lot and being in the choirs and like the special acapella choirs.
• 3:38
  And so, yeah, like it, it felt like my childhood, like I I grew up with like mentors that were wanting to help me become a musician.
• 3:52
  And there were also forces of like discouragement too, which I think is something that so many of us have experienced as children.
• 4:03
  And I recently have been like really thinking a lot more about what it means to be a musician and that we're all musicians and that this is something that is a birthright for all of us.
• 4:17
  And like wanting to really encourage all people.
• 4:23
  To be making music and singing together and just wanting to be cultivating that in our community here.
• 4:29
  So did you have a lot of goals with, like you said, you had mentors and you were pretty much immersed in music and theater and singing too.
• 4:42
  I like the way you phrase that, that you were discouraged or they were discouraging forces.
• 4:47
  What, what, what were those?
• 4:49
  Well, I think in my life it was like, Oh, we're so glad that you like to sing or so glad you like to play.
• 5:00
  But like, That's a hobby.
• 5:04
  That's just for fun.
• 5:05
  And like, I get that now as an adult and a parent.
• 5:11
  And I think that that's really not what I wanted.
• 5:15
  I wanted more than that for me.
• 5:18
  So you think that they were trying to create a buffer so you wouldn't be disappointed if you didn't?
• 5:23
  Yeah, yeah.
• 5:24
  Yeah.
• 5:25
  You know, I grew up in New York.
• 5:28
  Oh, I did not know that.
• 5:30
  Yeah, I grew up in New York in the suburbs of New York City.
• 5:33
  in Westchester County and there's a lot of professional musicians and artists in that area and it's like there's just kind of like a different or my personal experience is like the way people view the arts is really different than here and do they take it more seriously?
• 5:57
  Yeah.
• 5:57
  Is that what you mean?
• 5:59
  That's my opinion.
• 6:00
  Yeah.
• 6:01
  Like, and, and like seriously, and maybe like not the most positive way of, I mean, my experience was that if it's not classical and it's not like perfect, then it's not, you're not good enough.
• 6:21
  That was sort of like the message I received, like ultimately, like when, when I was like, so I had a lot of, There were like various mentors and like encouraging adults, you know, and then when I was like 18 and it's like time to leave the kind of like bubble of my community growing up, it felt like that disappeared.
• 6:47
  And even within that, it's like, it was really difficult to maintain a belief in myself in that context because you know.
• 7:02
  Like, for example, there was this thing called NISMA that I remember where you go, where we would go in and like play a piano piece for like a judge.
• 7:12
  And I don't remember what the judge, who the judge was, like some classical musician, probably in some orchestra.
• 7:19
  I don't know.
• 7:20
  And they would critique it and like evaluate it.
• 7:26
  And have a conversation with me.
• 7:29
  And so I did that a few times and I just, the nerves, the nerves, like the nervousness of it, and I remember that being discouraged by the evaluation, like her actually saying like, well, like, Is this really what you want to be doing and like lots of judgment, lots of judgment.
• 7:53
  Yeah.
• 7:54
  Like, not like, not like this is how you get better.
• 7:57
  Right.
• 7:57
  But you might not fit.
• 8:00
  And I, it, that I got that a lot.
• 8:04
  I feel like I got that a lot, like in like, like eight around 18, 19, like when I was when like the possibility of studying music at a college level could have happened.
• 8:16
  Crucial years.
• 8:18
  Yeah.
• 8:18
  Crucial.
• 8:18
  Like, yeah, exactly.
• 8:20
  And now looking back on that, I feel really sad.
• 8:24
  Because I made the choice at that point to not, like, I basically didn't, I like forgot that I played music my whole college, like for four years.
• 8:36
  I just like, I didn't really sing, didn't play.
• 8:41
  I didn't play guitar at that point yet.
• 8:43
  Abstinence.
• 8:45
  Yeah.
• 8:46
  Because I just told myself I wasn't good enough and it wasn't the right thing for me to pursue and I just stopped.
• 8:52
  Even though I remember applying for college and like, letting myself have the fantasy and the thought like, could I study music?
• 9:00
  Like, could I?
• 9:01
  You know and wanting that.
• 9:04
  And then.
• 9:05
  shutting it down.
• 9:05
  And I really blame like the culture that I was of that region in part, and that's part of why I don't live there.
• 9:15
  Because then coming to the West Coast, after I graduated from college, almost immediately, my friend, a friend I met, put a guitar in my hand and taught me three chords.
• 9:29
  And I started writing songs, you know, and so, yeah, it was like a total 180.
• 9:37
  And all of that stuff about, I mean, of course I still struggle with my not enough conditioning, for sure.
• 9:48
  But so much of that went away and, And just finding this more heart centered way of playing and being together in music.
• 9:56
  And it's that it's just been a journey deeper into that ever since then.
• 10:01
  I think anybody that's pursuing their dreams bumps up against that and how we handle it is, and how people around us, how adults around us, and like you were saying, your community and the people that support you handle that is, is is really crucial and it, it can make you or, or break you or send you on a journey to, you know, come back to yourself.
• 10:30
  Yeah.
• 10:30
  I don't even know, realize like how the, some of the very small things we might say to a young adult or even a fellow adult who's our age, like could really affect them.
• 10:44
  Right.
• 10:46
  Not knowing if it's I mean, it's good to have other perspective for sure.
• 10:52
  But if we could teach kids and people to filter best.
• 10:59
  You know, what comes in like that whole filtering process that is part of those exercises that we, that we would do in those workshops we did together of taking it in and is this true?
• 11:10
  If it's not true, is there something like this that people are seeing that looks like that?
• 11:14
  Like that's, that's such an important skill that isn't really part of our culture.
• 11:19
  And so we hurt each other all the time because we don't have that inner strength.
• 11:27
  Yeah.
• 11:27
  Like it becomes more about like, who am I?
• 11:31
  From seeing it from everyone else's eyes.
• 11:33
  And like, instead of like, who am I in here?
• 11:38
  Right.
• 11:38
  I mean, and that's normal.
• 11:39
  I think until we're 25, we're looking to the outside world for that reflection to make sense of.
• 11:46
  where we do fit in and who we are.
• 11:48
  But at some point there, there needs to be a shift or the solid, solidarity that happens as we grow for sure.
• 11:59
  So the whole thing about being famous, did you, did you allow yourself to dream?
• 12:05
  Do you now allow yourself to dream?
• 12:08
  It's a good question.
• 12:10
  I mean, I remember, I remember having dreams when I was really young of like, I mean, musical theater is a really big part of my.
• 12:19
  Initial love affair.
• 12:25
  And I, and it still is, honestly, I, I love it.
• 12:29
  I listen to it all the time.
• 12:32
  And I would have like fantasies of like being on Broadway.
• 12:35
  When I was like eight and nine and you know, really young.
• 12:40
  And now, yeah, I, do I let, let myself dream about being famous?
• 12:47
  I don't really, I mean, I have.
• 12:50
  Yeah.
• 12:51
  Obviously, and like sometimes that comes up but it's kind of, it feels a little too painful to really allow that dream to become like a goal because it's I've, I've realized recently, like maybe even in like the last year that my, I feel so much better when I.
• 13:20
  focus on what's right here in front of me and what's accessible to me now.
• 13:26
  And I, it's, yeah, it's sort of like that psychological truth that like, when we accept what is, then like we can grow kind of, it, it kind of feels like that.
• 13:38
  And yeah, this summer I did have some opportunities to like travel and lead songs in other cities.
• 13:48
  And that was sort of like, a little like step toward like maybe being a little bit more well known and it did feel really good and I would like to be more well known and and I would like it to be easier like I would like to write songs and have it not be like like a labor to be heard that I, I struggle with that.
• 14:14
  And I'm sort of trying to see it as just like, I put one foot in the of the other and like, I put out my email list at my gigs and I get a couple extra emails every time I play a gig and, you know, over time that grows and I go to a singing event in Pennsylvania and I, I meet people there and I have a good experience and then I come home and I'm with my daughter and like, I don't know.
• 14:40
  Yeah.
• 14:41
  Well, I, I just, I just want to say like, I hadn't seen you.
• 14:45
  We reconnected last summer.
• 14:46
  I came to one of your events and I hadn't seen you in what?
• 14:51
  Like eight, 10 years, something like that.
• 14:54
  Wow.
• 14:55
  Yeah.
• 14:55
  I think it, I think it had been that long at 20 2016 or 2017.
• 15:02
  Maybe.
• 15:03
  And, and my experience of you was quite different now that you're a mother and that you've been performing and just like really come out of your shell.
• 15:16
  And there was just so much joy and energy that radiated from you as a performer that I, you know, didn't see before, but of course before when I saw you perform it was, you know, for a small group of people at the end of a gathering.
• 15:32
  It wasn't like a public event either where you're, where there's a lot of projection or room for that projection, but I just so enjoyed being with you and how uplifting the singing was and opening art and the callback.
• 15:46
  I am not a singer.
• 15:48
  I, I truly do not have a good voice.
• 15:50
  I think I'm tone deaf.
• 15:51
  And yet I felt good participating with what you were doing.
• 15:55
  It was amazing.
• 15:58
  That's awesome.
• 15:59
  Yeah.
• 16:00
  I love that you felt that.
• 16:02
  Yeah, I, I did.
• 16:03
  And I want to say the turtle thing because a long time ago, and it, this, at this workshop we were in, there's an opportunity to give other people a reflection.
• 16:15
  And the reflection I had given you was that I was, it was like, you were a turtle where you would stick your head out and, and be all you could be.
• 16:26
  And then you would like pull everything back in your legs in your head and just be in your shell.
• 16:31
  And then you would come out again and in.
• 16:33
  And then I remember someone else saying it to you too.
• 16:36
  And when you're talking about the influences that you had that were suppressing you as you were, you know, growing as a kid with, with your love of this art.
• 16:50
  I can totally see where, where that might've come from.
• 16:54
  And I just, I don't, I don't see it anymore.
• 16:58
  And that just feels feels really expansive and big.
• 17:03
  Thanks.
• 17:04
  I it feels really awesome to get that reflection.
• 17:08
  It's kind of funny because when I was in fourth grade we had a school play and I told you musical theater really influenced me and I was a turtle.
• 17:19
  I was actually the, I was the main turtle and I saying this turtle song and like all, it was this play that someone wrote, in the community and.
• 17:30
  We were all animals or these groups of animals.
• 17:32
  I the lead turtle and there were all these other turtles who would dance around me and I staying in the middle and this whole turtle song anyway.
• 17:39
  So it's, it's very pleasing to me.
• 17:42
  The turtle energy and, I.
• 17:45
  understand looking back that and I might still have a little bit of it, but honestly, like the experience of becoming a mom, has been the, the single most transformative experience of my life.
• 18:01
  Absolutely.
• 18:01
  And I think I'm still coming.
• 18:05
  I'm still like in that on that path of being birthed from that.
• 18:10
  Because It's not just about me now, obviously.
• 18:14
  I mean, like it ever was, but just having her as my guiding light of who do I want to be?
• 18:24
  Who do I want to show her?
• 18:26
  You know, what example am I to her?
• 18:29
  Just knowing so much in my heart that I want her to be bold and I want her to be fully herself and embodied and confident.
• 18:38
  And so I do that the best I can.
• 18:43
  You lead by example.
• 18:44
  It's a lot of, it is a lot of responsibility.
• 18:49
  I think not enough women really talk about what happens in like psychologically after giving birth to a child.
• 18:56
  I mean, it is so much pain.
• 18:58
  And going through this amazing, painful, incredible experience, and then having your life completely changed on the other side of it, if you're conscious about it, it is huge.
• 19:12
  And it is life changing.
• 19:13
  And the responsibility that comes with it.
• 19:15
  With having children that I don't know that everybody fully recognizes.
• 19:21
  Yeah.
• 19:21
  I don't think so.
• 19:22
  Unless they have one or, or have had one or yeah, I, I've been like kind of in shock about the way our world treats this and how different it's been from my personal experience.
• 19:38
  But then when I have conversations like this, it's apparent that we all get it, you know?
• 19:44
  It's not depicted really fully in the media.
• 19:48
  It's not like when I got pregnant and everybody says congratulations, that's the thing everybody says, like, congratulations.
• 19:56
  And I was just like, this feels totally inadequate for what is happening to me.
• 20:03
  Like, thanks.
• 20:05
  because it wasn't just like, I had a really rough pregnancy where I was literally.
• 20:14
  Puking every day.
• 20:16
  Yeah.
• 20:17
  Like I got a little better at one point, but it wasn't like the typical, like, yeah, the first trimester is morning sickness and then you're good.
• 20:28
  It was not like that for me.
• 20:30
  So it really felt like an initiation, like literally.
• 20:36
  So it was really difficult to be like, kind of just like trying to stand.
• 20:42
  Like every day and just like trying to like get by and be okay and have people be like, congratulations, like eggs, but yeah, anyway just like all the different stages of like pregnancy, birth, postpartum and going through postpartum and, and simultaneous to postpartum is infancy.
• 21:04
  So like, you know, that's a really big deal to be complete, like that's all consuming.
• 21:10
  And so now my daughter's almost three and I feel like I've reached a new place where I'm calling it in my head post postpartum because I feel like postpartum in a lot of ways was like a death experience for me.
• 21:31
  And like which makes sense.
• 21:33
  Death and life, like.
• 21:35
  You know, your old life, your old life definitely died when you're taking care of an infant.
• 21:40
  There's no ability to like, take care of myself.
• 21:44
  I mean, like, this is, this is normal.
• 21:48
  I mean, I think if we like lived in a world where, you know, There was like, it was, I mean, more ritual, more ritual around and more recognition community like real community where it's like, Oh, here's the like, lactating women all together, you know, like I had a lot of issues with breastfeeding that were really upsetting to me where my daughter wouldn't latch wouldn't breastfeed.
• 22:16
  Immense amounts of shame because I was so set on her breastfeeding and like, I was literally like every three hours around the clock pumping, like pumping, pumping, pumping.
• 22:31
  People don't probably don't even know what pumping is.
• 22:33
  Pumping is when you put cups on your boobs and you like are milked like a cow.
• 22:40
  Not to like, it's sacred.
• 22:42
  It has its sacredness, you know what I mean?
• 22:45
  And it was so like, weird, you know?
• 22:51
  And so I just had these fantasies oh, I want my lactating women to be like, living near me.
• 22:58
  I want to be able to them to show me.
• 23:01
  I had five lactation consultants and it like didn't work.
• 23:04
  Yeah, it was really hard.
• 23:05
  And there's this, I hope it's okay to go off on this, but sure.
• 23:08
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:10
  Okay, cool.
• 23:11
  There's what happened for us, and I think this is really common is that she was born and my milk hadn't come in.
• 23:18
  And so there's this period of like three to five days where your child that you just birthed, they need you.
• 23:29
  So much, and she's basically starving, because she can't get my milk.
• 23:36
  And this is just like, proves to me that we are not living the right way, because if we were living more family big family, world, then like, there would be a woman who has her milk, who's like, takes my baby and, and my baby feeds, perhaps that's a really radical idea to some people, To me in that moment, it was like all I wanted, you know, no, this, you know, this goes back.
• 24:03
  I know you probably haven't listened to very many of my podcasts and you're a very busy woman, but I've been on a thing about primitive activities, primitive cultures, the activities that happened when we lived in tribes or people that still live in tribes.
• 24:19
  And there's a lot of brain health that.
• 24:24
  Is neglected because of these activities we don't do.
• 24:27
  There's a lot of physical health that doesn't happen.
• 24:29
  Like walking barefoot on the ground, sitting on the ground, cooking over a fire, being in a group, drumming, singing together, dancing together, walking off trail, hunting and gathering all of these things that, and those are just a few of the things.
• 24:44
  And what you're talking about is, you know, the shared experience and community and caring for.
• 24:51
  for children that would happen in a tribal society.
• 24:54
  Yeah.
• 24:55
  We need, I feel like if we could bring the, a lot of those activities back into our culture somehow.
• 25:04
  Yeah.
• 25:05
  Even if there's two or three of them and people could participate in that, like even just being in the forest or at the river or the ocean, we would be so much better off.
• 25:17
  Yeah.
• 25:18
  And so what you're talking about is absolutely on topic and, you know, the name of the podcast about the horses is about slowing down is one way to enter back into that.
• 25:30
  And that's one of the things the horses offer is this doorway into slowing down enough to realize, you know, what we're missing and pull some of those pieces back into our culture and into our lives.
• 25:47
  Yeah.
• 25:48
  Yeah.
• 25:48
  As you're talking about that, it makes me think about my love for these singing gatherings that I've been going to for, I mean, some I've been going to since I came to Oregon.
• 26:02
  So that was part of, that's really part of why I've remained here is this experience that people have cultivated.
• 26:14
  It's now exists, it doesn't just exist here, but there's a pretty big strong community of people who like to just gather in the woods and sing together and sit like and teach each other like what you said you experienced at in Elkton, call and response singing.
• 26:34
  It's like that kind of singing, where we're, it's accessible.
• 26:38
  It's taught orally and like, usually without written music, even though I am a fan of written music, but I think it's really cool in this setting.
• 26:49
  To me it does feel like a return to something that my ancestors were in touch with, that I'm not even aware of exactly what songs they were singing or like how they were doing it.
• 27:01
  But just like singing and making music as like.
• 27:07
  Yeah, a way to connect and be present and in community and, and connect to that primal.
• 27:15
  From a very somatic experience of like, like being involved versus being the audience how that felt in my body and my heart opening and, and the connection.
• 27:29
  It feels like a very spiritual, sacred thing and so missing and such a different experience than singing where there's so much judgment, especially since it's not something that's in my skillset, you know, I'm much more comfortable dancing than I am singing.
• 27:47
  That there's, acceptance of it and participation and joining.
• 27:56
  That's exactly what I'm trying to create.
• 27:59
  So I'm really glad you experienced that.
• 28:02
  Yeah.
• 28:02
  And I'm really glad you're creating it because it's so important and so healing.
• 28:08
  Yeah.
• 28:09
  Way better than being famous.
• 28:11
  Although I hope you get to be famous too.
• 28:15
  Yeah, it's yeah, I think maybe being famous is overrated.
• 28:19
  I mean, it seems like a lot of people who are famous, at a certain level are not doing well psychologically.
• 28:28
  I, it's so nourishing for me to be in a situation where people are singing with me.
• 28:36
  So I do what we're talking about, the community singing.
• 28:39
  And also I, what I do like 10 times a week is I go to residential care facilities and I lead sing alongs with the patients there.
• 28:53
  And that's also really nourishing in like a totally different way because we're, we're doing I have a song book of 120 covers.
• 29:08
  I let them choose usually, and we do songs that they know, a lot of them from their childhood.
• 29:17
  And just try, so I just try to make it as inclusive as possible.
• 29:22
  And like, yeah, hope that they get that same, that same quality.
• 29:31
  I bet there's so many health benefits to what you're doing too.
• 29:34
  I wish somebody would do a thesis on that and do some measuring and some non profit would coordinate it and pay for it.
• 29:40
  And I mean, there's so many studies like that, that we could be doing that.
• 29:45
  Once there's clinical evidence that things are working, there's more funding for it, you know, and that means it spreads.
• 29:53
  And unfortunately I mean, it's great when things can just be organic and volunteer based.
• 30:00
  But in our culture, people, people, I would like to see people get paid for doing valuable work that makes a measurable difference.
• 30:08
  That I know right now is making a measurable difference, but nobody's measuring it.
• 30:12
  I, I truly am not educated about that.
• 30:17
  The studies, but I think there've been some studies, it's just not my expertise.
• 30:27
  Years ago when I, when I was 38, I was in the nursing program and I had to do a research paper and I did it on aging.
• 30:35
  And I had one peer reviewed article back then where peer reviewed articles were still very respected that talked about.
• 30:42
  In a retirement home, they just had people have pictures of themselves as younger people out.
• 30:50
  And I think they even wore a badge of themselves younger, like around their neck.
• 30:55
  And they measured the interactions and they played music from the decades that those people were teenagers and they did do some measuring and it just the pictures of the music had a huge effect.
• 31:05
  Wow.
• 31:07
  So yeah, I'm sure there's more studies out there too.
• 31:09
  I don't know what they are, Yeah.
• 31:11
  That's really interesting.
• 31:13
  Yeah, I feel like our, we don't value aging in the way that I think would help all of us and benefit all of us and us as aging people and also us as needing the wisdom of all the ages, you know?
• 31:32
  So yeah, I just do my best.
• 31:36
  When I'm there to, yeah, treat every person like they have something to offer me.
• 31:44
  I have something to offer them and It's really joyful in that way.
• 31:50
  Like I kind of see myself as like a joy bringer, which sometimes is difficult when I'm not feeling joyful, you know, and I and like but Somehow it's like if I'm having a bad day, I'm tired Whatever, like, I walk in there and it's like, I can.
• 32:11
  I can bring it.
• 32:12
  I can bring it.
• 32:13
  It's like, I feel the joy of the music.
• 32:15
  Like, I feel the joy.
• 32:17
  Like they, like, so often they're so grateful to have me there.
• 32:22
  We connect.
• 32:23
  It's like, it's such an awesome way to connect.
• 32:26
  Like, yeah, of course I want to like hear their stories and like know them and we all want to know each other.
• 32:32
  And it's like, I just love connecting in this way.
• 32:35
  Like, for me, like singing with people, it's like, We bond, you know, and that's, it just fills me up.
• 32:45
  And I, and I just trying to bring together all the other people that feel that way.
• 32:50
  Not everyone does.
• 32:52
  And that's cool.
• 32:53
  But like, I just, yeah, the experience of us.
• 32:57
  And, and I think a lot of people don't make time for it.
• 33:02
  They don't understand how much joy and connection is there because Singing just is really not a big part of our culture.
• 33:13
  Like, like it used to be like when I was growing up, I had a best friend who had a great voice and she would sing and I would love it when she sang, you know, just when we were doing something, we're playing with our little trolls or, you know, as we got older, we might be just, you know, walking or hanging out by a river.
• 33:31
  Or a creek and she would start singing and it was sweet.
• 33:34
  It was just really sweet.
• 33:36
  And I never, I didn't feel the permission to join in just because I didn't have the skill.
• 33:40
  I didn't have the voice, but I really enjoyed it.
• 33:45
  And I don't, I don't think people just sing.
• 33:49
  I mean, I don't know anybody else that just sings, you know, just around the house or out in the back or in the car.
• 33:56
  No, it's pretty rare.
• 33:57
  I do, and probably other people in my like community singing world do.
• 34:03
  But it is rare and it feels like every time I do it, I'm like, I feel like an outlier.
• 34:11
  Like, I feel like I'm being ostentatious and I'm when you say outlier, do you mean that in a good way?
• 34:17
  I feel pretty good about it personally.
• 34:20
  Because it's, it's an identity I've cultivated for myself.
• 34:24
  So like when I'm playing at one of the assisted living places or something, like I'll, I'll sometimes start singing, like, let's sing together.
• 34:39
  Or like, I just make something up like about coming together or, you know, Like I start, I, so in the songbook there's page numbers.
• 34:47
  So it's one of the issues a lot of time is folks can't hear the page number or they mishear the page number.
• 34:56
  So I've been like singing the page number a lot more because I find that that communicates it better.
• 35:03
  And I just do it.
• 35:05
  And then sometimes people laugh for like, they think it's silly and it's like, I'm comfortable.
• 35:11
  Being seen that way at this point.
• 35:14
  But I'm aware that that's No.
• 35:18
  But it seems appropriate.
• 35:20
  You know, there's things like when we're in a leadership role like that, I was just thinking about this because I went to I've been back dancing this week.
• 35:27
  And so I'm thinking about instructors and all the different ways we learn and what instructors or leaders do.
• 35:33
  And it's a way of accessing.
• 35:36
  the way people learn or hear.
• 35:39
  You singing the page number probably hits a different part of their brain than saying it.
• 35:45
  Yeah, seems like it.
• 35:47
  And so in intuitively doing that to help people doesn't seem silly at all to me.
• 35:55
  It seems smart.
• 35:57
  Thanks.
• 35:58
  But then I'm autistic.
• 35:59
  What do I know?
• 36:01
  I mean, they're into it.
• 36:03
  Like, it's just fun.
• 36:05
  And I mean, singing is really just Like we're talking right now, we're making tones with our vocal cords that like have different pitches in them, as we talk singing is kind of, it's just an extension of that, it's more breath.
• 36:21
  It's more intentional in terms of pitches and tones.
• 36:26
  the more we can just get in touch with we're kind of already doing it it's interesting having this conversation with you.
• 36:32
  Cause we started with like my upbringing and living in New York and the kind of like classical music worlds.
• 36:38
  And I'm like now seeing like, wow, I think part of what I'm doing is just like, I'm still undoing that.
• 36:44
  Like, I'm still just like rebelling against that.
• 36:47
  Like it's okay if we're not on pitch together.
• 36:51
  It's okay.
• 36:53
  If, you know, it doesn't sound the way that we think it's supposed to sound.
• 37:00
  That's not what it's about.
• 37:01
  It's not what it's about.
• 37:02
  Pursuing our passions I would like to, I want to say should, and I don't like to use the word should, but if there is a way to pursue passions without having all of these judgments and self criticism come in, judgments and self criticism can be helpful to improve what we do, you know, but if there If they're not interpreted that way, or if they're not delivered in a way that makes interpreting them that way easy, they really do get in the way.
• 37:31
  And, and I, I just want to kind of resonate as you were talking about this cultural attitude in New York, you know, my dad was from New York.
• 37:38
  And when I was in college, I wanted to study dance and my mother was all in favor of, you know, dance and art and all that.
• 37:44
  And dad was like, why do you want to waste your life with that for?
• 37:47
  You know, like, again, the arts or anything creative wasn't seen as legitimate.
• 37:55
  And, and yet, gosh, let's honor how we feel.
• 38:00
  And if being creative is what brings us joy and what we're meant to do, it's sad that so many people have to overcome these judgments and it's like squashing.
• 38:15
  Of our culture.
• 38:16
  We in this like capitalist world that commodifies everything and puts us against each other because there's all this scarcity around these things, whether they're, that's real or not created perhaps created in our minds, in this capitalist society, so many of us Have to squash that creative spark in us in order to get by, in order to, cause, it was my dad too, mostly, who was the force of that's not legitimate.
• 38:57
  And only recently has he now, like in the last five years, he now respects what I'm doing and honors it and, and it means a lot to me that he does that at this point.
• 39:09
  But I just wonder, I mean, I feel like that is coming from their need.
• 39:16
  They had to do that, right?
• 39:19
  As, like, at some point in their life, they had to come up with that way of structuring their worldview in order to survive right.
• 39:29
  It comes from survival and protection.
• 39:31
  Yeah.
• 39:31
  Yeah.
• 39:32
  Yeah.
• 39:32
  And so even though the reality is like you studying dance, who knows like what that would lead to, I believe that, we need to follow our passions to the absolute end.
• 39:47
  And not perhaps, you know, It's not being in the ballet of some company or whatever, but perhaps it's something else, you know?
• 39:58
  And what makes, what makes life worth living, right?
• 40:02
  It's like, if spending the day, for me if spending the day writing a song brings me joy that day, even if The next day, nobody hears it.
• 40:14
  I'm still really glad I did it.
• 40:16
  And it's what I want to do.
• 40:19
  So anyway.
• 40:22
  And that's where it starts, that self commitment to, to joy and following your passion and your creativity.
• 40:31
  Yeah.
• 40:31
  It's nice to find other folks who feel that too, because it's just not, it's not the dominant paradigm.
• 40:40
  Right.
• 40:41
  that there's value in, in that.
• 40:44
  But there is.
• 40:46
  I agree.
• 40:47
  This seems like a natural ending spot.
• 40:50
  Yeah! It does.