Latest / Hiking without a stitch / EP. 17 – Brotherhood Without Masks with Northman

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EP. 17 – Brotherhood Without Masks with Northman · Hiking without a stitch

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Who first told me to cover up?
0:02
SPEAKER_02: What if the best nature is in football?
0:12
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Hiking Without a Stitch.
0:14
SPEAKER_02: Get naked, be free, and be kind.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: I'll share my journey into futurism, stories from the trail, and conversations with others who have found freedom in the open air.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: How's it going guys?
0:26
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Hiking Without a Stitch.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: I'm John, your host, and I'm really excited for you to hear today's episode.
0:32
SPEAKER_02: When most people hear the word nudity, they usually think of shame or sex.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: And what if it's really about freedom, authenticity, confidence, and connection?
0:42
SPEAKER_02: My guest today is Northman.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: His journey into naturism has taken him all the way from Canada, visiting Australia, and that essentially led him to building communities centered around brotherhood, vulnerability, and genuine human connection.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: In this episode, we talk about his path into naturism, the experiences that have shaped him, the role nudity has played in his life, and why he believes so many men today are searching for deeper connection and authentic friendships.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: We'll also explore naturist culture, nude hiking, men's retreats, and what happens when we start letting go of the masks we all wear from day to day.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: Let's get into it.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: All right, thank you.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: I am joined by Northman.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for coming on.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: I've really been looking forward to this conversation, man.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Been looking forward to it as well.
1:33
SPEAKER_02: To start this off, can you tell listeners just a little bit about yourself?
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: So my online name, I should say, is Northman, and I am a full-time nudist.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Um so I love all things nudist, been living as a nudist for going on seven years now.
1:50
SPEAKER_02: Aaron Ross Powell That's super cool.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: Um how did nudity kind of take or enter the picture for you?
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's if it's definitely increased over the years.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: So it actually originally started off with uh my dad.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: So he was a nudist in everything except for title.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Um so he wouldn't identify as a nudist, but he really was.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Um we came from a very religious conservative family, so that kind of thing was officially frowned upon, but it was something that the guys in the family very much still did.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: Um and my father was a nudist in the sense that he would very often go skinny dipping in our pool, walk around the house naked, and he would always love doing it with a bit of a cheeky grin on his face.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: He loved the freedom of it, he loved the guyishness of it.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: And um, it's something that for a long time he started doing this um in my adulthood, but for a long time I was kind of grossed out by it and repulsed by it.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, how could you be naked?
2:47
SPEAKER_00: That sort of thing.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think as as time went by, I started to view it as very much a liberating thing.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: Um he had so much fun doing it.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: He was so cheeky with it.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Um and one day I decided that I really wanted to try it.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: And I just remember that first day of going skinny dipping.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: I was so embarrassed.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: I felt like I was doing something absolutely insane.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: But going into that pool for the first time and then coming out was just an amazing feeling.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: And I've never looked back since then.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's super cool.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: So the very first time that you decided to strip off and and do that, um, you said you felt embarrassed.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: Who was all around?
3:30
SPEAKER_02: Was it just you and your dad, or was there kind of a group of people?
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: So the very first time that I did it, um, I did it alone.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: I was probably 18 or 19 at the time.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: And I remember it was a hot summer's day, and I think I think I had just gotten back from a roofing job or something like that.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we had this kind of like pool house that was probably about five or ten meters away from our living house.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: And I just remember, it seems so simple now looking back on it, but I just remember taking off my bathing suit once I got into the water and just kind of swimming around and being hella nervous about being caught.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I remember while I was underwater, I heard our pool house door open and it was my dad.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: And luckily, before I came up out of the water, I slipped my bathing suit back on.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: But then about a week later, I was like, you know what?
4:25
SPEAKER_00: I think he would actually be quite proud because he's a nude swimmer and he's always doing this.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I kind of casually brought it up.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh I had this little script that I brought up, and um, yeah, the rest was history.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Went skinita ping the next week um while he was in the pool and he didn't care.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: I think he was totally proud of it.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: And then yeah, just kept doing it and it just grew from there.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love that.
4:49
SPEAKER_02: What did uh see d did he start doing the his nudist journey kind of you said a little bit later in life, like not when you were a kid?
4:59
SPEAKER_00: I think I think it was yeah, he pretty much waited.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: I think that was mostly for proprietary reasons, and then once we were, once I was an adult, uh he was a bit more free with it.
5:09
SPEAKER_02: Aaron Ross Powell That's so interesting.
5:10
SPEAKER_02: Were you was it off-putting when you first started doing it?
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Were you like, ugh, what are you what are you doing this for?
5:17
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: It kind of made sense because we had just gotten a pool.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: I think it was that natural like inclination to go skinny dipping in your own your own pool.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: Um but I really didn't understand it.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: Like it was something that I hadn't considered before.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: Um I was a very self-conscious teenager, so I didn't even swim shirtless a lot of the time, and there he was totally nude.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: So I was like, yeah, what what's the point of this?
5:40
SPEAKER_00: What's the, you know, like what's the reason for it?
5:42
SPEAKER_00: And I just didn't get it until I, until I did it myself.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's awesome.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: I love that your dad's uh uh played a part in your journey.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, totally.
5:51
SPEAKER_02: In the pre-interview, you described the experience almost like a rite of passage um into like freedom and manhood.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: Can you explain to me what you meant by that?
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's um for me, nudity is such a for myself, like uh such a liberating masculine experience.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: And then also almost like uh it's being in touch with almost like a spiritual side of masculinity for myself.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: And I definitely don't mean to say that it's limited to just men.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm just talking about my own experience.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: Um I always felt that skinny dipping and walking around the house naked was very much limited to kind of like um my dad was the only one that really did it.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: So I very much associated with kind of like man of the house vibe sort of thing.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: And he made it so cheeky the way that he did it.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: Um I just associated it instantly with being kind of like a man.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, when I when I went into that pool nude for the first time and came out, I never felt that sense of masculinity before in my life and like so proud of being a man.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's just that's awesome.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when you're a teenager, you're really self-conscious about like the changes that are happening in your body and that sort of thing.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: So when I was 18 or 19, um, to be proud of it and shameless about it was such a liberating feeling.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's huge.
7:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
7:18
SPEAKER_02: Especially with just the way that I don't know, the generations are brought up now.
7:25
SPEAKER_02: We're lacking that um those rights of patch passage, you know, from youth into manhood or or even for women, you know, youth into womanhood.
7:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think we're missing a lot of those rights of passage.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of people would benefit if we had more of them or more group uh dynamics like that.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: And I remember as a Canadian, um, so growing up, I always um it may sound weird because I think I'm a minority here, but I always wanted to be an American.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: I lived right on the US border and I always wanted to be part of the country.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: Um and one thing that I was always really jealous of was that it seemed that those kinds of like rite of passage things were very common for um like American universities, like fraternities and that kind of thing.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: They'd go streaking around the university campus as a way of initiation.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: And I think we had that to some extent in Canada.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: Most of the time it was way too cold.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I I really uh really wish that was still a thing.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: So um I'm gonna flip the question on you, John.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: So what was your kind of first experience getting naked?
8:32
SPEAKER_00: Because I know I've seen a lot of you on Instagram.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, what were your first experiences and was it always something that appealed?
8:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I didn't grow up uh as a nudist or naturist.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: My family was just sort of free.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: So when we were being brought up, nudity wasn't like that big of a deal.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: And we lived kind of out in the country, so we could be out in the woods and and be naked and not be like an issue.
8:57
SPEAKER_02: Um and then kind of went away with away from that, you know, as I got older and started wearing clothes for basically a mask um to put on, make me make myself feel included, um, and that I was okay.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: And then we moved to Tucson, and before that, I just had gone skinny dipping with like my best friends.
9:25
SPEAKER_02: So and that was really just because we didn't have bathing suits, so there wasn't it wasn't intentionally we were going out and being nude.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: But then by moving to Tucson, there's a nude beach here in the desert, and I had read about it online, so I went and um thought for myself and was really pleased to see people just existing, not not expecting anything sexual, nothing weird going on, and it was pretty freeing because before that I put a lot of uh weight on nudity, you know, just with the Western culture that we get that sex sells and you know all of that.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: So I had to unlearn a lot of things, but that's kind of where my journey started.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: And I stripped off at this nude beach and kind of sat in a pool by myself and was like, I I think I I'm gonna start doing this a lot more.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's always fun that kind of first-time experience.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: It's a total game changer, isn't it?
10:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's real wild because you feel like you're doing something wrong.
10:29
SPEAKER_02: Because you're so used to not doing it or or it needing to be hidden that when you first go to do it, you're looking around a lot.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: You're really concerned that someone's gonna jump out and catch you and get you in trouble.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: But once you ease into that, it's so freeing.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is definitely that feeling of kind of doing something wrong, which I think it's so unfortunate because so many people do disapprove of nudism, and I hope that that changes with time.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, as nudity and like naturism started to grow and become a bigger part of your life, how did that change your relationship kind of like with yourself and then the interactions with other people around you as you got more comfortable in it?
11:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like as I become more of a nudist, I continuously feel like the naked me is the real me.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: I often feel I do love clothing and I love dressing up and that sort of thing, but I often feel like if somebody isn't accepting of my nudist lifestyle, they don't know the real me.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: And at this point, a lot of people, except for work colleagues, most of my friends and family know that I am a nudist.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: Um I think Yeah, when I first moved out on my own, I guess I was 21 at the time, um, I decided to start living around the house totally naked, uh, which was an awesome feeling.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: And after that, um, especially during COVID, I bounced between different accommodation and different housing.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes I was alone, sometimes I had flatmates.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: And when I was with flatmates, I just didn't feel like myself, like having to go to the kitchen or come out of the shower and like put clothes on to go into the common areas.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: It just didn't feel natural and it didn't feel right.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: And when I was living with other guys, I just didn't see the point in it.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: I was like, if we're both guys, we both know what a guy looks like naked.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: What is the point of wearing clothing around the house?
12:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, so now I'm living with my partner right now, so it's I have total freedom to do that.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: But I feel if I if I were living with flatmates again, I would probably try to take steps to select someone who is at least accepting of a more nudist lifestyle.
12:46
SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
12:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:48
SPEAKER_02: That's so interesting.
12:49
SPEAKER_02: Did you have a lot of would you say negative reaction when you tried to tell people like your your roommates or anything?
12:56
SPEAKER_02: How would they like kind of treat you after that?
13:00
SPEAKER_00: I think most people, I didn't really get any negative reactions.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Most people kind of just um nod silently and not really know what to say.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: Um the most negative reactions was unfortunately from people that thought it was like a sexual thing.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: Where um I just remember there was one time I was telling a friend that I'd gone to Wreck Beach in Vancouver, which is like I'm I'm pretty sure it's North America's biggest nude beach.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful place.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: And his first question was, did you get lucky?
13:28
SPEAKER_00: In other words, like, did you find somebody to pick up there?
13:32
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, it's so not like that.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: Um you like you feel like lucky in the sense that you just get to get naked anywhere, you know, because it's such a taboo thing.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, so the idea of turning it sexual just takes all the fun out of it for me.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: Um so I think yeah, it's definitely become more of like an identity thing as I've gotten older.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: Um and I can't imagine I'd be where I'm at today in terms of like my sense of masculinity and my sense of pride if I hadn't kind of lived that nude lifestyle over the last seven years.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: At what point did you start like going out into nature and like what what did your first like nude hike ever look like?
14:17
SPEAKER_00: So this was a really cool story, actually, because um after I went skinny dipping for the first time uh in Canada, I just remember instantly thinking, like, even though it felt so wrong and like like such a taboo, I remember thinking I really want to make this like a full-time lifestyle.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: And because I was from the middle of the prairies in Canada, I didn't have a lot of outlets for it.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: And I turned to Instagram and I found so many nudists on Instagram um that were posting their nudist or naturist lifestyle.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: And um for those listening, if you're on Instagram, you all know that um the censorship is really actually quite it's annoying on Instagram because it'll censor you sometimes for your just for showing butt or something like that.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: But I actually quite like it because it prohibits like sexualizing it too much.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: So I loved being on Instagram and seeing all of this nudity that wasn't sexualized.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Um so when I moved out on my own, I actually contacted some Instagram people that I had followed.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh I didn't even follow their accounts, but I had just kind of visited their pages for years.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: And I remember the first um, the first Instagram nudist who I think is not on Instagram anymore.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: I contacted him when I ended up moving to a city nearby him just by chance.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: And to my surprise, he responded.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: And we went out for this nude hike, and um he kind of taught me about like where to find secluded areas and how to dress um to be able to get naked and get dressed again really quickly.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: And it was just an absolutely like fantastic day.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: And um I just remember it was this person that I had followed on Instagram for years, not even from the same country.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: And I just be remember being like totally amazed um by that experience.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: And that was my first time.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: Um it wasn't my first time being out naked in nature, but it was to that, to that extent.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I need to do more of this because it's actually there's such an art to it, um, but it's not uh an impossible thing to do, especially in our countries, Canada and America, where we have so many, you know, off-trail areas, so many isolated areas.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: And um, I actually, because I'm yeah, I come from kind of like the woodlands areas of Canada, I really kick myself for not going nude in those areas more now.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's cool.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: Um so at some point you went from Canada to Australia.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: Was what you experienced in Australia going there and visiting is the nature's culture different than North America or is it kind of similar?
17:06
SPEAKER_00: I think it's um it's more open and I think it's a little bit more prominent here.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: I think by virtue of the fact of the weather.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: Um so where I'm from in Canada, because I'm from central Canada, very, very cold area.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: So you only have you know three or four months where you can be naked outdoors.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: So I heard of a lot of guys doing it.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: Um but in terms of opportunity and just meeting other guys that are willing to do it, not as many opportunities.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Um in Australia, especially if you're along the coast, which most of the major cities are, um, there's such a culture of like um not wearing as many clothes.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: So so many people will go barefoot, like in the streets and into the stores or um shirtless.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: Like I've gone shopping in essentially swimwear, like shirtless and barefoot before.
17:56
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's so interesting.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so they're a lot more it's a lot more socially acceptable to be in a state of less stress than in than in North America, which which I absolutely love.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's so much more of a body positive area.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: There's lots of body toxicity as well, because you have like, you know, the whole um uh like beach body culture as well, which has its own negatives, but um people celebrate um degrees of nudity if not if not full nudity.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: Um in in quite a few of the major Australian cities, you have nude beaches in the middle of the city, uh, which is quite different from um even Vancouver in Canada, where Wreck Beach is tucked away down a flight of, I think it's something like 350 stairs, so you really have to trek out to get there.
18:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Um Yeah, so we kind of hide them away, um, which yeah, which I feel like makes us nudists and naturists.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: We have to make our own spaces because they're not really created for us infrastructurally.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell Yeah.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: And you we have to fight a lot more to keep them up and active and not shut down.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Um Yeah, that's it.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: And I'm um I'm curious, John, are you a do you identify as a nudist or a naturist?
19:09
SPEAKER_00: Or how do you kind of distinguish?
19:11
SPEAKER_02: I use them kind of interchangeably.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: I would probably say I'm more of a naturist just because I really there's something so deeply profound to me to go out and be naked out in nature and just feel everything.
19:25
SPEAKER_02: So I'd probably lean more to as a naturist, but yeah, I here I I feel like we use them kind of interchangeably.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, awesome.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: Do uh in Australia, do you feel that they use those terms interchangeably, or is it kind of one or the other?
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Um I'm not really sure about Australia.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: I would say that I find um just from the people that I've I've met, they um I I don't know if I'm accurate in saying this or not, but for me the distinguishing factor is if you walk around the house naked, you're a nudist, and if you just get naked out of the house, you're a naturist.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, I use them, I use them pretty interchangeably as well myself.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's that's funny.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: Is there any legal differences that that kind of stand out to you between North America and when you went to Australia?
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so one thing that r is really interesting to me, um, and I guess I I can't speak with full authority on this because I only know from Google, but um, there are quite a few nude beaches in Australia that are nude by understanding.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: So there are some where like um there's been like a city ordinance or whatever, um, and it's an official nude beach, but then there are a bunch where it's an unofficial nude beach, but there's this understanding between like local councils and nudists that it's like, okay, this this area is nudist.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: Um the other thing in in Canada, which I think is wild that we have is public nudity laws are extended to some types of dress as well.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: So I think our our wording is something like so clad as to offend against public order.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: So it's like if you're dressed in a way that's offensive to people, it can be illegal.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Um I think it's such um like I don't know the specifics of it because I'm not an expert in in-law, but I feel like it's such a vague kind of wording.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Um because yeah, in Australia you can walk down the street in speedos and be fine, but then um yeah, in Canada, it's like if somebody complains, like you you ask yourself how far that extends.
21:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: But um in Canada as well, we had a precedent.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: I want to say in Ontario in the eighties, I believe, where three guys got caught skinny dipping out in nature.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was taken to court and they were let off the hook, and it started a precedent.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Where now allegedly, if you are in a reasonably secluded area or a place that you think is reasonably secluded, it's um permissible to go skinny dipping or to be naked in nature as long as you're being like cautious about it, which I think is really good.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's awesome.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: And I haven't like tested those limits at all in Canada, but you know, it's good to know that there's a precedent there.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's super cool.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: Um common sense common sense laws make me make me happy.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: What are the laws like where you're from?
22:34
SPEAKER_02: So here out on public land, it's more like the tolerated nudity.
22:39
SPEAKER_02: So there's no strict law saying you can't be naked, but it's also if you get caught or if someone sees you and is offended, they can call the sheriff.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: And if the sheriff comes out, then it follows the the law of the county.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: So it it would fall, it would fall down to the public nudity laws.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: And here, if if you did get a ticket or get arrested for being out on public lands naked, you could get arrested and get put on like a child sex offender list, even for non-sexual activity, which is just wild to me.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: That's why when I hear like common sense laws about, well, if you're out in the middle of nowhere and not upsetting anyone, you should be okay to skinny dip or lay in the sun or hike around.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
23:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's wild.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: What um what state are you in again?
23:34
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm in uh Arizona, southern Arizona.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: Oh, right, okay.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: All right, yeah.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: I guess at least there would be lots of places, lots of secluded places to kind of get away with it down there, eh?
23:44
SPEAKER_02: There is.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: There is.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: I've found the best um way for me is to find canyons and just follow the canyons way back into where people don't really drive or hike.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: So any anything that kind of gets you out and away from the crowds is real good.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: So have you um have you ever thought that you were isolated and then ended up being caught by somebody?
24:10
SPEAKER_02: I I have.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: I have.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: Um I was swimming, I went, I actually flew up to Washington State to uh visit my family, and I went hiking on some like national forest land and drove way out on this um old two-track dirt road and hiked down to this swimming hole with the big uh rope swing.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: And so while I was down there, I stripped off now swimming and just having a blast, not paying attention.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: And these two women, probably my age, come walking down the path.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: And it's the type of trail where they had to walk down and there's like a viewing spot up above.
24:46
SPEAKER_02: So I don't know how long they were up there, just like there's a naked dude down there.
24:51
SPEAKER_02: But when they both walked down, one of them was like, Oh, is it is it cold?
24:54
SPEAKER_02: Did you jump off the top?
24:55
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, No, and the other one, you could just tell.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: She was like, I can't believe you're naked.
25:01
SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's it.
25:02
SPEAKER_02: But there wasn't anything about it, like, wasn't a problem.
25:05
SPEAKER_02: I just put my shorts on and wished them good day and left.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
25:13
SPEAKER_02: Have you uh have you been caught by anyone out out on the trail?
25:18
SPEAKER_00: Um trying to think.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: I've definitely been caught a few times.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: So I remember I went to Europe in 2023 and it wasn't really on trail, but I was just doing some nude photography around Copenhagen and Berlin because like the laws there are so accepting of nudism.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, I'd go out with uh photographers in the evening time and I'd try to find these like isolated areas of the city to get some kind of like urban photography, and a couple of times I was caught there.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: Um and then one of my favorite stories was I was going um for a skinny dip on New Year's Eve, uh, and I thought I was at this isolated beach and the fireworks were going off in the distance, and me and uh my partner and two buddies, we all ran into the water naked and we thought we were in this isolated area.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: And during the fireworks, like three or four people go down to this isolated beach and set up and just look at the fireworks, and we all had to do a yeah, we had to do a nudie run back to the clothing.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, no reactions.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: So it was we were partially silhouetted, but it was just it was the irony of thinking that we were super isolated and then apparently it was a fireworks viewing spot.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: So that was hilarious.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
26:33
unknown: Yeah.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: Those are always great, uh great moments.
26:36
SPEAKER_02: Like, oops, sorry.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like it's pretty fair game, like at night too, because people are expecting you to do like nudie swims at at nighttime.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: Um of the of the darkness.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: And it's like the main thing that I always think of is you want to make sure that you're avoiding being seen by children.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: Um and at nighttime, you can always guarantee that.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: So like everyone that came down was an adult, and that was that was, you know, good.
27:07
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's awesome.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: Um what does like the word brotherhood mean to you personally?
27:16
SPEAKER_00: Um so I think for me, brotherhood, it's like it's camaraderie, but it's being able to express yourself as a as a man in the context of of male friendships, kind of like what we were talking about earlier with fraternities and that kind of thing.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's very much a a lost art and being able to just be totally um like at liberty to express yourself how you want around around other guys.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: What do you what do you think why do you think nudity helps create that deeper connection between men and like masculinity?
27:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's so many things.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: It's it's like a connection to your kind of primal self, I think.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: Um and it's also that feeling of doing something slightly cheeky with your with your buddies as well.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: So being able to kind of um I don't know, just do something that's a bit a bit taboo and to be able to do it as a group and just have a laugh at it.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, there's nothing like just being able to hang out naked with with other guys and for it to not be sexual and to just have a laugh at it and enjoy it.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Um so it's always kind of hard to pinpoint exactly what it is, but I think it's that kind of connection to the the primal self and just not taking life too seriously.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: Um and it's it is really bonding to like you were saying, when you both where anyone, if you're in a group and you do something together, it just bonds you, especially when it's something like that where you're like, oh well, we shouldn't be doing, but that's really fun and kind of like funny.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: Um so I love that.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: Do you what's the difference that you've noticed in like a group setting to compared to like being at home just naked by yourself?
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: I guess I guess when I'm by myself, it's so much I tend to like feel it a bit more spiritually, I guess.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: Like it's very meditative uh when I'm alone and I'm nude um and contemplative.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh if I'm in a group setting, I feel like it's I guess in a way I feel freer because I'm I'm around other people.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: Um I'm feeling that inhibition, but I'm letting myself feel that inhibition around other people, around other guys.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: Um So yeah, it's an interesting question.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure there's I'm not sure there is a huge difference to me.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: I think it's I think it feels deeply freeing either way.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: I guess maybe the sense of cheekiness is kind of there more if you're around other other guys, because then yeah, you're breaching into the territory of um not breaching, but you're getting into the territory of um, you know, doing something taboo with it with other dudes.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: Well well, like for someone listening, it it probably sounds really surprising that for someone that's not used to this or into this way of life, and a lot of people outside the community have this idea that it is somehow sexual and that there's there's undertones of sex going on.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: If someone attended like uh one of the retreats that you've done or gone hiking with you, walk me through kind of what those experiences would look like to like a newcomer.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it it kind of depends on the the exact kind of retreat.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes I'll host events that are even just at at home.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I always say that everything done is better done naked.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: So it might even be that we have you know a buddy over just for video games and we'll suggest that we do it nude.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: And so we've just played video games nude all evening.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: And I think for kind of first timers, that can be a really good one before they get in in front of a bunch of people uh naked, because at the retreats, we try to make them as kind of spiritually grounding as possible.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: So the idea is to be naked for a whole weekend and to essentially connect with the earth.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: So we try to include artistic and craft activities, whether that's like clay modeling or drawing or whatever it is, but something that we can disconnect from our phones with.
31:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: So typically speaking, we will do a Saturday and a Sunday.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess in a Friday night too.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: And on the Saturday night, we'll usually finish a craft or a hobby or something manual like that.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: And we'll go into naked neon uh body painting, which is always really fun.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: So we'll have like a little Yeah, we'll have like a little naked neon dance party.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I would have to say that that's probably like the most liberating part of the whole thing.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: But if you're someone who hasn't been casually naked in a non-sexual setting, it can be a little bit intimidating, I think.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like, you know, building up to that point and just getting people comfortable with it throughout the day.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: Um we haven't really had anybody who has been too nervous about it.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh we've had people that have kind of taken their time in getting naked, which is totally fine, but nobody where they've been like, oh my gosh, I can't do this anymore.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: I need to put clothes back on.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, because I think so many guys just find it so liberating once it starts.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: The um the kind of difficult thing I always feel is that some people I feel once they've hung out naked, the excitement is kind of over for them and they don't really like seek it out anymore.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: I think it's an experience that they want to have, and then when they have that experience, they're not really interested in pursuing it more, which is totally fine.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: But um I can't relate to that.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: I always, yeah, I always love doing it more.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: So exactly.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: At this point, um, a lot of friendships that I cultivate are ones where they are comfortable with that level of nudity.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, even if they're not nudists themselves, they're comfortable with me being nude around them and that sort of thing.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: So um it's been good to kind of let that be a larger part of my identity as the years have gone by.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: It makes it easier than to do the mental gymnastics of oh, can I do this?
33:54
SPEAKER_02: I can't do that around them.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: So that's really cool.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: Um when you're like creating these spaces, whether it's a retreat or maybe a hiking group, how do you maintain like the brotherhood and avoid anyone trying to like bring in um anything sexual or to push like boundaries?
34:19
SPEAKER_02: Have you had that before?
34:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, not especially actually.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: I've been quite good about it because we'll always tell people when we first invite them that it's not a sexual thing.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: Um and like the we thought that um well, my approach is always that I always say don't do anything sexual in the common areas.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Like if I don't know, if two people go and do something behind closed doors, it's kind of their business, but don't bring that into a common area.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, like I'd I'd rather have them not do it at all, but people will do what they're gonna do sometimes, unfortunately.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: Um So yeah, I think also by nature of the fact that it hasn't been like 20 or 30 people, it's usually been a maximum of like 10.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: Um interesting.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, it's generally intimate enough and small enough um that I kind of really do set the tone for it.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: Um so it's not really been a super in a lot of cases you'd have to be pretty antisocial to try anything because it's just not the the vibe.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: But I've also sought out people that share that mindset as well, where it's like, um, you know, we all love being naked.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: There can be that like cheeky thrill to it, but we want to leave it at that.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: And for that to be the satisfaction of it, that cheekiness and that brotherhood to not take it a step further into like sexual territory.
35:43
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: Yep, absolutely.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I'm really fortunate that a lot of people have, most people have um respected that.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: Do you um do you have a lot of friendships as well where um like you can be your true self around them, you can be your natural self around them.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: Luckily, uh the people in my life are people that I could be naked around and it wouldn't wouldn't really bother them.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, but that's probably only a handful of people, like my best friend Robert, um, and a couple coworkers, and my wife and my my brothers, but yeah, not not too many people.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome that you can still do it around your your brothers, because that's that's one person.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like siblings, I probably wouldn't be comfortable around myself, but yeah.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: Well one one of my brothers, uh one of my my youngest brother.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, I haven't tried it around him.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: He seemed um standoffish when I brought it up to him.
36:43
SPEAKER_02: I just kind of thought it was really weird.
36:45
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then my other brother, Jamie, he'll go to the the nude beach with me or come over and sunbathe, but he's not he's okay with the nudity, but he doesn't want to be nude himself, I guess.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
36:59
SPEAKER_02: So that's that's good.
37:01
SPEAKER_02: And it took a little time to get to that point when when we first started, and I was like, Yeah, come over and I'm gonna lay in the sun naked.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: He's like, Well, what the hell are you doing?
37:09
SPEAKER_02: Why can't you just wear shorts or something?
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's it.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: So are you the oldest or I'm the oldest, yeah.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good um good precedents that are then.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: Push the boundaries a little bit.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's it.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: Um one thing that I really love about these conversations is hearing the impact that nudity and nature and just being free has on people.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: What have some of the friendships within this space taught you kind of about trust and vulnerability and connection with other people?
37:47
SPEAKER_00: Um I think some people just need a bit of a helping hand in terms of finding their self-confidence.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think that self-confidence has been one of the most rewarding things about being a nudist and help helping other people explore nudism.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: Um there's nothing more satisfying than seeing someone that wants to participate in something naked, but doesn't quite have the confidence.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: And then by the end of the night, they're dancing naked to ABBA, covered in neon body paint.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: Um it's such a liberating, yeah, it's such a liberating and satisfying experience.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: And I think it has really showed me how far support can go.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: I feel like so much content online nowadays is all about yourself.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: And I know that's kind of like rich from coming from us because we post a lot of ourselves because we are near the nature's profiles, but um I think it's so important to support other people and to give them that encouragement and to tell people that, you know, like you're you don't have to be some ripped guy with six-pack abs to post yourself or to be naked or um anything like that.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's just really it's really helped me, I think, establish that kind of um like desire to support people emotionally a little bit in that space.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: Dude, that's awesome.
39:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: What uh looking back at your journey, kind of like what advice would you give the younger version of yourself that was just starting out and a little uncomfortable with nudity?
39:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh I guess, you know, just keep doing what you're doing, like get naked as often as possible.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: Don't be ashamed.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: Don't be ashamed of nudity, don't be ashamed of being a man.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, and just if you feel like being naked, being be naked.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: So do you do do you do retreats and like nude hiking groups often?
39:48
SPEAKER_02: Or how long have you been doing those?
39:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I try to.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Um it's quite difficult to find a consistent group.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think at every retreat, probably 70% of my attendance has been different each time.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Um but I would love to set something up that's a bit more regular.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: I think um it's quite difficult to find people that are at um, I don't want to say my level of nudism, but like that love being naked as as much as I do.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: Um like so many people will go swimming naked and enjoy, you know, going to the nude beach, but I want to be naked 24-7.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that's it's hard to find people that are are like that.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: And I have found a few.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: Um so I would say right now my events are probably probably like twice a year for big ones and then like smaller ones just at home throughout the year, probably every month or two.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: But I would love to be able to do these events like quarterly or something like that.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, that'd be real cool.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: Another thing is that I've started going to uh Burning Man events where nudity is allowed, even though it's not the norm.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: Um and that kind of awakened a bit of a passion in me because that was just like my ideal life, being able to live naked as much and wherever you want.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: Um so I'd love to start traveling around to those more, and I'd love to have a group of nudists um to go to those, to those with.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, that'd be awesome.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll definitely go to um Nevada's Burning Man.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: Is it Nevada?
41:27
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to Nevada's Burning Man, because I know so many of the American nudists go there.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to kind of have a reunion there.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: I think that would be awesome.
41:38
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's awesome.
41:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: Keep me, keep me posted.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: I might try and uh make that.
41:42
SPEAKER_02: That'd be cool.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, one 100%.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: It's so it's interesting what you were just saying about people trying it, and then they're like, ah, you know, it's not for me.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: Because I too had the opposite um experience.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: I tried it and then wanted everything to go 100% more into it.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: I was like, I need to recreate this feeling and these experiences as much as possible.
42:07
SPEAKER_02: So it's real interesting to see people try it and then go, maybe not for me, because I just can't I can't relate to it at all.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: And I do wonder sometimes if that is the people that are maybe more inclined to sexualize it, like when they come and they find that um when they come to an event and they find that it's not ending in something sexual, maybe they get disappointed and and leave, which I guess is a good way of kind of weeding out those that are viewing it a little bit differently.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: Um but it is unfortunate.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely can't relate either.
42:40
SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell Yeah.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: Do do you find that most people come to your events looking for friendship or camaraderie, or are they just coming because it's something funny or out of the box to try?
42:54
SPEAKER_00: I feel like a lot of them come just for the camaraderie and the the brotherhood around it.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: Like um naked video games and naked board games over some drinks is always a great time.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's I think it's just that that friendship with a little bit of cheekiness involved is um is what draws in a lot of people.
43:15
SPEAKER_02: Oh, right on.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: What uh what outdoor nude experience has kind of stayed with you the most?
43:28
SPEAKER_00: Um So I think there was Yeah, I think the one that stands out is um for Christmas one year I decided to rent an Airbnb in the mountains and spend a whole week totally naked.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: And my goal was to spend multiple days without even touching a piece of clothing, which was fantastic.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: Um and on that same trip with some buddies, I was able to do a Naked hike, but um with the caveat of leaving everything in the car.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: So like finding a super isolated trail at night and then just leaving it all in the car and walking down the trail totally naked.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Um and like I tell you the liberty from that was amazing.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: Like just not having anything to cover up, not having anything to carry.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, you just feel like you're part of nature, and I think that's probably stood out to me the most over the years, and I would love to do, love to do more of that.
44:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's awesome.
44:34
SPEAKER_02: Night hikes are so cool because it's yeah, you're just shoved into this dark screen where you can't really see.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: You're in this dark bubble.
44:45
SPEAKER_02: It's wild.
44:46
SPEAKER_02: Did you go on like a uh uh full moon or just take little like headlamps?
44:52
SPEAKER_00: Not that time.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: No, there was another time though.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: Um it was one of my first times.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Was it one of my first times skinny dipping?
44:58
SPEAKER_00: Like at night, I think so, apart from in my own pool.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: Um and it was a full moon, and I just remember this huge moon on the horizon, and I was with a buddy at the time, and we were under the the stars, and the decline into the water was really, really shallow.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: So you could walk out like probably like a good 50 meters before it got deep at all.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: And just looking up at the stars and being naked was such like a spiritual, amazing experience.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that one's really stood out with me as well.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what the anomaly was that night, but it was one of those nights where like the the moon is on the horizon, but it's a lot bigger or it looks a lot bigger than the.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like a supermoon.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, supermoon, that's it.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: And that was just uh that was an amazing night.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: So I would love to do more of that as well.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's awesome.
45:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would love here we have um what do they call dark skies.
45:53
SPEAKER_02: So it's where we don't really have street lights and people have there's an ordinance that you can't have lights at a certain angle, they all have to face down.
46:02
SPEAKER_02: Um so you can see the night sky really good.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: I've and I was thinking it'd be cool to do like a group of people to go out in the desert at night and do like stargazing, bring like a telescope and like do nude nude stargazing.
46:15
SPEAKER_02: That would be amazing.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: There's something special about the night.
46:18
SPEAKER_02: It's just really really cool.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: Where you are, have you had uh the opportunity to do that kind of thing where you're like you leave everything behind and go for a bit of a walk without carrying anything?
46:29
SPEAKER_02: I have.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: I have done I don't do it often just because where I go, there's a lot of people on like four by four little quads or horseback, so you can be back somewhere and then all of a sudden someone's whipping around a corner on their quad.
46:45
SPEAKER_02: But uh a couple times I've dropped my pack and just walked like a wash or a drainage.
46:51
SPEAKER_02: Um it's super freeing because you don't have to worry about carrying anything, you don't have the weight of something in your hand, it's just you existing with your thoughts and and you know, moving.
47:04
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean do you do you have a special pack that you carry with you for trips, or do you just kind of carry just your arm arm full of stuff?
47:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's so funny because I have different kind of like naked-friendly outfits.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: Um so it really it really depends on where I am.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: Like I have different shorts, different shirts based on like where I'm planning on getting naked.
47:31
SPEAKER_00: Um So I always try to carry bags that don't um that don't like have a zipper and that don't um what's the word that won't get intertwined.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: Like um I used to think a drawstring bag would be really good, but it's actually really annoying if you have to get dressed quickly and you're sifting through all these strings.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: Um and then kind of same thing with um shorts.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: So like if you're gonna go get naked in nature for a photo or for a skinny dip, um, if you're wearing something that involves like um like my biggest offender is probably jeans with sh with tears in them, like we had in the 2000s.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: Um because you'll try to put it on and your foot will go through the hole instead of the actual hold of the pant.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: And of ripping the front of your pants out.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: And shoes are probably the worst offender as well.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: So like having to get the socks on and the shoes.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: So I've um luckily, depending on where you are and what season it is, I try to go just um bare chested and barefoot as much as possible and just a pair of shorts.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: Um that's always my preference.
48:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it does really depend.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: So when I did a nudist trip to Europe a few years ago, I um I think I wore yeah, shorts for most of that, but then I had this big square backpack that was really easy to get in and out of um when I did want to get naked.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: So Yeah.
48:59
SPEAKER_02: That's so funny.
49:00
SPEAKER_02: I love the uh I love your your story about the progression of like you have different outfits and you you you dry you try to draw a string bag and realize that it didn't work out.
49:10
SPEAKER_02: I think there's uh a commonality that people have with that because I think we all go go through, oh I'm gonna bring this bag and then it doesn't work, and you're like, well, I'm gonna chuck that bag and get a different bag.
49:22
SPEAKER_02: And so you just your your gear evolves as you you keep exploring.
49:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's funny too, because then when you go out with somebody who's a little bit new to the experience and they show up in like, you know, jeans and a drawstring bag, and you're able to strip and get dressed within a couple seconds and they're there five minutes later, still getting their ass in their jeans, you're like, hurry to hell up.
49:43
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
49:46
SPEAKER_02: It's real funny.
49:48
SPEAKER_02: Like I've been there.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: Um Exactly.
49:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: If someone's tuning in today and they're listening right now and they feel like disconnected or lonely, um, and they're looking for a try, what would you want them to hear or take away from this conversation we're having today?
50:07
SPEAKER_00: Um what I'd recommend for someone who's feeling disconnected who is a nudist and knows that they're a nudist is honestly to connect online.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: And it's not probably I know it sounds a bit weird coming from people that, you know, want to connect with nature and and nudity as much as possible, but the number of friendships I've found online through Instagram and genuine friendships that have lasted in some cases going on seven years now, and I've met some of them and traveled across the world to meet them.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: Um it's made me feel so connected and like such so so much part of a community.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think at this point in history, it's kind of the only way to connect with like-minded people who do appreciate nudity in the same way, which is online.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, that would be my my number one piece of advice.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: And I think a second piece of advice would be to try to create the opportunities in real life as well.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: Like I've I kind of tend to believe that a lot of guys enjoy being naked and are just ashamed to say so.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, go for a hike and find an isolated water uh water hole and just just see what happens, stay open-minded to it.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, but at the same time, respect people's boundaries, don't push it too much.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, just just live your life.
51:29
SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely.
51:31
SPEAKER_02: Um Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you want to talk about or anything that you want to say before we kind of wrap wrap things up?
51:41
SPEAKER_00: Um I don't I don't think so.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: Um I had a another question that came up in my mind uh for yourself because I know um as I've been following your content and listening to the podcasts, I've noticed that you've um interviewed and hung out with, had the opportunity to hang out with guys and girls in in nudist context or nature is context.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: Do you find that there's a a difference like as a man um being with both different genders?
52:10
SPEAKER_02: Um Yes, yes and no.
52:14
SPEAKER_02: Um on the surface, not really.
52:18
SPEAKER_02: Like I just went on a hike with my good friend Dieter, and she stripped off, and it was just like hanging out with like one of my guy friends.
52:26
SPEAKER_02: Um the the nudity really wasn't that uh sensational, you know what I mean?
52:31
SPEAKER_02: We were just having good conversation, walking the trail, uh just really hanging out, and it's been very similar with uh the guys.
52:40
SPEAKER_02: Uh so yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't really say so.
52:43
SPEAKER_02: Maybe in the sense like when I first approached the idea of hiking with her, um I I wanted to make sure that she was comfortable and and felt comfortable in the whole situation.
52:57
SPEAKER_02: And so I like walked ahead of her for like the start of the hike just so she could get comfortable being nude and you know in her own space.
53:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
53:08
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that would be the only the only caveat is I just want to make sure that uh anyone that comes with me is comfortable and feels like safe and and okay to if they don't want to strip off, they don't have to.
53:21
SPEAKER_02: And if they do, that's totally cool too.
53:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's really cool.
53:27
SPEAKER_02: Have you have you done any um male-female hikes or male male-female like nude skinny dipping?
53:37
SPEAKER_00: Um not really hikes.
53:39
SPEAKER_00: There have been like sometimes at the nude beach where you just socialize with, you know, both genders.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: Um and then the the most kind of the closest proximity one was probably um there used to be a nudist reserve that was 3,000 acres over um in the Blue Mountains, which is close to Sydney, west of Sydney.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, and that was a really popular spot for, you know, long time nudists, like nudists that have been naked since the 70s, essentially.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, that was there was lots of interaction between between the genders there, which was great.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, and I'm I'm totally open, open to that as well.
54:22
SPEAKER_00: I um most of my experience has been with with men so far, and I've really enjoyed that brotherhood.
54:27
SPEAKER_00: But it's also awesome just being able to do it around anyone.
54:31
SPEAKER_00: I think I would say at this point, like I agree with you, you kind of have to be on guard, especially as a man.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: Like you don't want to come across as a creep.
54:38
SPEAKER_02: So that's always, you know, exactly constantly.
54:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, constantly in my mind.
54:42
SPEAKER_00: So you play it really cautiously.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: Um so I guess you just feel more at liberty around other guys because there's a mutual understanding.
54:50
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, definitely nothing against co-ed.
54:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
54:53
SPEAKER_02: That I guess that's exactly what I was I was meaning.
54:56
SPEAKER_02: I I just being a little bit more on guard that I'm not, I don't know, offending someone or or being perceived as, you know, a threat.
55:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
55:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:06
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I remember at that retreat as well, um just a random story that popped into my head.
55:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know if it's relevant, but there were a lot of first-timer nudists that came as co-ed husband and wife groups.
55:19
SPEAKER_00: Um and that part was really like unfortunate, actually, because they rented these cabins and they would catcall the guys as they would walk by.
55:27
SPEAKER_00: Uh which was like really Yeah, which like if it if the roles were reversed, it would be really, you know, be a big deal.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: So it would not be good.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: Not be good, no.
55:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, most of the time guys aren't super offended by that, I find, but it was just, yeah, random thing.
55:43
SPEAKER_02: It it is, it is interesting the the role reversals on different things.
55:49
SPEAKER_02: Like that, like the cat calling.
55:51
SPEAKER_02: Um Yeah, it's just it's very interesting the perception society has on the male gender and the female gender.
55:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
56:00
SPEAKER_02: Kind of kind of in the same vein.
56:02
SPEAKER_02: Men can strip topless and walk around without a shirt, but women can't, and it's like Yeah, yeah.
56:10
SPEAKER_02: Not that much of a difference.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: Canada actually, um, it's legal for women to walk around topless in Canada.
56:17
SPEAKER_00: I've never seen it happen before, but technically Yeah, technically it's legal.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: Um I know um you probably have to go soon, but I was also gonna ask.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: So um I think I started following you probably less than a year ago or something like that.
56:31
SPEAKER_00: What um what's your long-term goal for for like your nature's profile and and everything?
56:37
SPEAKER_00: Where do you see your nudism going?
56:39
SPEAKER_02: I would love to start doing more group group hikes and like trail cleanups.
56:46
SPEAKER_02: Um at some point, I'd love to sit down with some like land managers to talk to them about like the BLM lands and the national forests and how they manage them and like creating maybe potential places where nudity would be not legalized, but you know, tolerated or or allowed.
57:06
SPEAKER_02: Um so that's kind of like what I would I would like to see down the road.
57:12
SPEAKER_02: And right now it's just I want to keep interviewing cool people and hearing stories and just really being um being a place for people to see that non-sexual nudity is totally normal, there's nothing weird going on, and that you know, nature creates a great space to do that and and and enjoy it and learn a lot about yourself.
57:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks so much for for doing the work.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: It's great to see other people raising awareness for it as well.
57:43
SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
57:44
SPEAKER_02: You too.
57:44
SPEAKER_02: Your uh your Instagram profile, your pictures are so well done and you stand for like non-sexual nudity.
57:52
SPEAKER_02: So it's cool to see people who are presenting themselves, you know, in the right light and showing the rest of the world that, you know, this is totally okay.
58:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you so much.
58:03
SPEAKER_00: All my profiles are are private, and I honestly I'd love to make them public.
58:07
SPEAKER_00: And if if I didn't have to worry about losing a job, I totally would.
58:10
SPEAKER_00: It's really unfortunate that we have to worry about that as nudists.
58:13
SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
58:14
SPEAKER_02: It's it's kind of crazy that that that's even a thought that you can lose your job for for something you partake in outside of um your workplace.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
58:26
SPEAKER_02: Cool.
58:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, if you don't have any more questions, we'll wrap it up and thank you for for coming on.
58:31
SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate your time.
58:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, useful John.
58:34
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
58:36
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story today, Northman.
58:40
SPEAKER_02: I think this conversation highlights something a lot of people are looking for right now authenticity, connection, friendship, and community.
58:48
SPEAKER_02: Whether someone is interested in naturism or simply looking for deeper connections in their life, there's a lot we can learn from showing up as ourselves and creating spaces for others to do the same.
58:58
SPEAKER_02: Northman, thank you for sharing your experience and perspectives with us.
59:02
SPEAKER_02: And to everyone listening, thank you for joining us for another episode of Hiking Without a Stitch.
59:07
SPEAKER_02: Until next time, get naked, be free, and be kind.
59:10
SPEAKER_02: See ya.