Latest / The Media Odyssey / THE FILMTOK EFFECT: BONUS EPISODE
Transcript
- Evan Shapiro: [00:00:00] So what's interesting is, Eli Shell, who runs Sidewise Productions, is joining us, and he and I met, as many do these days, actually, Marion, as you and I met, on social media in the DMs. Marion Ranchet: Okay. Evan Shapiro: Eli, runs a really interesting vertical production studio, that focuses not on the typical genre in vertical. But we became friendly because we were DM'ing about the state of vertical drama or micro dramas, on TikTok. And we started a conversation and a friendship, and then he dropped this show a couple months later, and I was fascinated. So Eli, welcome to the podcast. It's good to see you, not in person, but virtually [00:01:00] to your face. Eli Shell: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity. Longtime listener, first time caller, that sort of thing. I'm a fan of the show. Marion Ranchet: Nice. Eli Shell: I'm glad to be here. Marion Ranchet: Awesome. So Eli, I don't know you. I, don't spend that much time meeting strangers in DMs. So where did you get your start? And what led you to Sidewise? Eli Shell: Yeah, thank you. So I'm gonna try to give you the quickest version of this possible, 'cause I can give you my whole life story. We'll be here for a couple hours. So yeah, I went to, I went up to school up in Portland, Oregon. That's where I got my film degree. And, then from there I created my own production company, and I was freelancing up there, doing stuff for educational institutions, nonprofits, startups, that sort of thing. Decided I need to get a real job was what led me to California. I ended up at Stanford as a producer there for five years. And from there I went to an agency adjacent sort of [00:02:00] position. I worked for a media company, by the name of Ozy Media. If you ever want like a fun rundown of a company that crashed and burned, I was- Evan Shapiro: Holy moly. Yeah. Yes. That's quite a story unto itself. Yeah. Eli Shell: It is. It is. I was actually at the center of it. I was the studio producer for the Carlos Watson show. So I was, my office was right next to his, and I heard all the fun conversations, associated with it. Evan Shapiro: All the made up characters, fake investors and things like that. Eli Shell: Exactly. Exactly. I was, I was right there. I was at the heart of it. So when that company went under as it were, I went back to freelance and then I ended up at a brand by the name of Zenni Optical, where I was the producer, the lead producer there. And we created, I moved down to LA, to create a studio for them. I built a studio, like we got a physical space and I hired photographers and videographers and editors and all that sort of thing, to create their content. And what was [00:03:00] really interesting about that was we were shooting commercials, we were shooting social media content, and everything we were shooting, we had to frame for both horizontal and vertical. So I was already thinking in vertical at, by that time. And then I, when I left that position in July- I was thinking about my next steps, going back to freelancing, and I was seeing these vertical micro drama ads on Instagram. And, so I kinda went down the rabbit hole. I was like, what is happening here? What even is this?" And I started to really understand the world of verticals, and I thought to myself, there is a world now, post-Quibi, that people are watching narrative shows on their phones. And so that's what got me really excited, and I was seeing the the drama, the romantic drama, which is great that they were able to, lead with that. But I was just like, "I don't really have any interest in making that. That's not something that I feel c- confident in or comfortable shooting, that sort of thing. But, [00:04:00] if people are watching narratives on their phones, let's see if we can expand the genre, expand the audience." And so I created, my show. I call it, it's called In-House. It's very loosely based on my, career going between being in-house at different companies and being freelance, and some of the characters that I've met in my life. and so we shot that in December and then launched in January. And it's just been, it's been an exciting ride learning about this world and creating my company focused on it and seeing the sort of, the audience reaction to the show. Evan Shapiro: And you, so you launched, how many episodes did you shoot? Eli Shell: It was eight episodes. I'm calling it my pilot season. Rather than, in traditional media, we have a pilot episode that we shoot and then go out and try to get, streamers and people like that behind it. with vertical episodes, these episodes are a minute and a half to two minutes long. I wasn't gonna go shoot a one-minute episode [00:05:00] only. That's not valuable at all. Yeah. So I called it my pilot season, so eight episodes, that take place- Evan Shapiro: Between one and, between one and two minutes each. Yeah, and, give the elevator pitch there. It's, 'cause it is based on your own reality there. It's an in-house agency at a brand. Eli Shell: Right. Yes, exactly. So In-House follows a creative team at a failing aromatherapy brand. It's very much loosely based on my life, some of the characters that I've met in my life. So this creative team, we've got our creative director, our art director, photographer, social media person, and the owner of the company, who is rich beyond all belief. So it's fun, it's funny, it's cute. There's it's sweet in a way, and it's, it's something that I feel like is missing from the traditional media landscape right now. We've got a couple shows on some of the major streamers, but, comedy is largely nascent nowadays, and especially comedy [00:06:00] that's not extreme in any sort of way. That it's fun, it's funny, and it's not. Evan Shapiro: Sure. There's a lot of traditional television comedy in here, but it's shot in the vertical format for short-form content. So it's, it is premium vertical television, I think in its kind of very DNA. And I wanted to have you on because I think there are a lot of people who identify with you, who they've been through different parts of their careers as creatives at companies on their own, doing their own freelance stuff, and they're micro drama curious 'cause they see all this activity happening out there in the marketplace. You went and you did this on your own. You launched it how many, it's gotten millions of views in total since you've launched it, correct? Eli Shell: 2 million views total, and, continues to grow. And that's across all three platforms. So I have it on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube Shorts. So the aggregate of all [00:07:00] those is around 2 million views. Evan Shapiro: And you funded this on your own? Eli Shell: I did. I did. I've done the crowdfunding thing before. I just, I'm at a point in my life where I don't feel like I can go begging for money again, and I believe in this. I'm seeing the numbers on the people who are watching micro dramas. And again, that's, I'm thinking of people who are watching narratives on their phones and we all are walking around with TVs in our pockets. So 8 billion people on the planet, everybody has a TV in their pocket. Is there a world where we start watching serialized shows on those TVs that we're carrying around? My bet is yes, I think there is that world. Evan Shapiro: And it's happening. You're watching this happen on these apps. To your point, these are Marin and I like to make fun of them a little bit, but they're soft-core porn, telenovelas, gamified. They're not necessarily proper entertainment, and especially [00:08:00] the, variance in budget from marketing to production. They're spending way more acquiring customers than they are on the shows themselves. And, the actors and performers have all kind of noted this. But, everybody notes this, and everybody's kinda seeing this happen. Not everybody goes out and makes their own show on their own dime and puts it out there. So what compelled you to do this? What got you off your ass and actually got you beyond talking about it and into making it? And if you wouldn't mind sharing, what did you spend on the show? Eli Shell: Yeah. So part of this, what really made me get off my ass and make this show was, again, I'm at a point in my life where I've made content for others my entire career. And we all make content for others. If you're working at NBC or CBS or something, you're making something for the executives there. That being said, those, when you're working at those companies, you're making something that you are, like, passionate about, hopefully. And I've been [00:09:00] making, branded content and communications videos and educational videos for organizations that I think they're doing good work, but it wasn't exactly what I wanted to make. And I was just like, you know what? Life is short, let's make something that you actually want to make. and that was, and that's what led to it. I feel like it's a combination of the fact that there is an opportunity here, and I would encourage anyone who's thinking about this, about making their own show in a vertical format, even if it's, especially if it's not a, romantic drama, to do it. We, the more we have, a rising tide is gonna lift all boats. The more we have, the more, the audience is going to be there, and they're gonna be cross-pollinating. Evan Shapiro: And there are a lot of people out there sitting with their pilot right now and wondering what to do with it. This is a great way to not just make it, but actually get it seen, because it's not in a half-an-hour format sitting in one clump on a YouTube channel somewhere that nobody goes to. But what did you spend in total on this, if you don't mind me asking? Eli Shell: Yeah, so it was right around [00:10:00] 25K, for the whole show all eight episodes. So just about 3,000 per episode, which is, actually on par or even a little bit lower than some, than what some of the major microdrama players are doing. And the reason why I was able to get that cost down was because people wanted to make this. There are, the talent took a lower rate, not just because they were newer or that's just what microdramas do. They saw it and they were like, "This is so much better than things I'm, that I'm auditioning for and playing right now." And they all, everyone came on board for my vision of let's expand the genre. Let's make this into more than just romantic dramas. Imagine you went into a bookstore and all it was Harlequin romances. Like [00:11:00] that would be insane, right? That would be a, you'd just walk out, be like, "This is a weird bookstore. I'm not, I'm leaving," That's where we're at, we need to make the Barnes & Noble. We need to make the large bookstore that has something for everyone. Marion Ranchet: And business model-wise, what are we talking about? How are you making money? Eli Shell: Money? No, so the idea here is I'm using this as a loss leader to create the larger season. I'm in development on season two. The script is ready. I'm talking with brands, I'm talking with co-production partners, and I'm actively looking for investors in Sidewise as well to build out a slate where we do this exact same thing. My whole point with Sidewise is to create something that we can test against. I come from the Bay. I spent most of my career in the Bay, so I come from this very like tech approach. So we talk about minimum viable products in tech, [00:12:00] so this is like a minimum viable season. The same thing. Test it with the audience, see if they're into it, and then what, take your learnings and then scale from there. So that's what I'm doing with the,company as a whole and that's what I'm doing with the show. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. and that's why I thought this was interesting. A year ago you went to the Micro Drama or the Vertical Drama Conference as somebody kind of- looking to learn the business, right? What's the conference that you went to? What's it called? Eli Shell: Yeah. It's called the LA Vertical Drama Market. Evan Shapiro: And so you went there last year, and that's actually where you kinda popped onto my radar a little bit and you were just kinda like looking around, and you had this really great rapport on the Vertical Drama Market, which I then stole and reposted as you do in the mixtape world of social media. Both on LinkedIn and on TikTok, and that's actually where our personalities intertwined first. But now this year you went and you're a speaker 'cause you made a show. And this is somebody who made their own show. And [00:13:00] what was your different experience between those two markets, and what do you think that journey and where you are in the market says about this sector writ large? Eli Shell: So when I went in September, I was still learning about the space. I had this kind of idea of in-house, but I wasn't sure how to break the show. And I, went to the Drama Market and I was very much I was in the back of the room. I was listening. I was quiet. I didn't really make any connections. I wasn't sure what was going on in this world. But I did come away with some learnings, some thoughts, where I talked about in that video that Evan's, you're referencing, that they couldn't do walk and talks or they couldn't do two-shots, and I was just like, that's completely insane. There's gotta be a way to do that." And, and I, I put a few two-shots in to in-house. I, did some, if not walking directly at [00:14:00] camera, at least characters crossing, so there's some action there. It's not just single, single, single, that sort of thing, just to prove, those people wrong. I've always done that. Like someone says something and I go, "You know what? let me test that. Let me see if I can do that." So that was, back in September, and now this time, I just came from it. It was in early May. It was a great conference. It was a lot of fun. I made a lot of great connections. Being on the panel with other indie vertical producers was great. with the panel that I was on, is the future of vertical indie. Now, this, the independent vertical space, there's literally like a handful of us at this point. Like, all of the verticals being made right now are either in-house at the companies ReelShort, DramaBox, FlareFlow, those sorts of companies, or they are contracted out to production companies who are generally just given a [00:15:00] script that was written in-house. So these companies own this whole cloth, that is all there is to it. We are, There are now new apps coming out who are licensing content, but generally those are rev share with no minimum guarantee. So the economics are still pretty tough, but we're in the very, very earliest stages of independent production for verticals. And I do think that we are going to build this market up as it matures. But being at that Drama Market, being on the panel with the other independent producers was really great, and there's a lot of excitement around independent production for verticals. It was one of the larger audiences of the weekend because everyone is like, "Can I do this? Can I make this happen?" And I try to be very clear. It's difficult. It's expensive, and you're, making a bet, but you're betting on yourself, which is, the best kind of bet to make. [00:16:00] Marion Ranchet: And how do you view the big guys, the Netflix, the Disneys of the world going vertical? And by that, right now I have to say it's mostly used as a content, discovery tool more than anything else, so let's see what it does. But it does signal that they're, they wanna test the formats, right? And it seems that you're leaning more towards a premium ecosystem than you are towards maybe a typical microdrama. So are you hopeful? Does that mean that you're hoping your show could get picked up? A new show could be commissioned, that your show could be picked up as a license, et cetera? Eli Shell: Yes. Yes, that's exactly what I'm hoping for. The big players, they are, They're using this mostly as discovery. Netflix, everyone got Everyone in the microdrama world got so excited when they heard that Netflix is coming with a vertical feed. Yeah. And I was like, "Did you even read the article?" It's it's just their own shows as [00:17:00] vertical ads pretty much, Which is that's fine. That's cool. Disney's doing the same thing, but they did verticalize one of their, teen or pre-teen shows. And so people are excited about that. Peacock, I don't know if you guys saw this one that they just came out in the last few days, that they're gonna have five or six, microdramas, standard volume microdramas on their app coming this summer. Evan Shapiro: Micro-reality. But that's, that to your, point, it's an expansion of the genre. It's micro-reality shows with their Bravo stars. Eli Shell: Yeah, there's the two reality shows, which I'm actually very bullish. I think that reality, or unscripted if you will, is going to be big in the vertical space Evan Shapiro: Agreed. Eli Shell: Especially with the streamers. But they're also doing, they're also releasing six or seven, I married my stepbrother's best friend sorta shows that are not the Bravo stars. I don't know if they licensed those or if they produced them as originals, but they are coming out with some [00:18:00] very volume-esque microdramas as well. Evan Shapiro: And it does, if you look at, so Netflix announced, today, earlier today or yesterday, earlier this week, that they're taking the, Breakfast Club, which is a radio show, which has been a podcast on their platform, and now they're airing it three hours every morning- Eli Shell: Got it. Evan Shapiro: Live worldwide. And that's basically just, again, it's like a Morning Zoo, it's a radio show. Eli Shell: It's a morning show, yeah. Evan Shapiro: Very inexpensive for them to stream that on. Yeah. Does feel like the economics of vertical content, even if you get a little bit more expensive than the traditional micro drama, just feels like Disney, Netflix, Peacock, Paramount, that they're gonna start looking at least at testing out acquisitions in this space from the independent producers. It does feel like they're, we're at the beginning of a market, at least that's my assessment. Eli Shell: And then you add onto that what TikTok is doing, and I've said for a while that TikTok could absolutely decimate the big micro drama [00:19:00] apps if they really wanted to. If they wanted to jump in with both feet, ReelShorts and DramaBox and all the others, like they're gonna be in a pretty bad situation. Evan Shapiro: And TikTok is now funding micro dramas or ongoing series, yeah? Eli Shell: So we got Issa Rae's, from Hoorae Media is, her company. The show is called Screen Time, which is a- Evan Shapiro: Doing really, really well too, it appears, apparently, yeah? Eli Shell: Yeah, It's, she released the first half of 27 episodes, and that is, yeah, last I heard it was like 80 million views, something like that. And it is, it's really well done. It was directed by Kristen Brancaccio, who did an amazing job, and it's a thriller. And that's what's so exciting, this is, there is some romantic storylines to a certain degree, but it doesn't have the standard micro drama tropes. And so it's really exciting to see a big star like that jump in and create genre expansion as well. [00:20:00] And that's what we need. We need thriller, we need horror, we need comedy, we need reality. There's a lot of different ways that we could go. It doesn't all have to be romantic drama that's sort of high melodrama. Marion Ranchet: Awesome. Eli, thank you so much for coming on the pod. We'll put links to In-House so people can watch it on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. We'll see you next time. Evan Shapiro: And if you're interested in buying In-House, contact us. Eli Shell: Let's get in touch. Thank you so much, guys. Cool. Really appreciate it. Evan Shapiro: Thanks, guys.