Latest / Saving the World From Bad Ideas / Bad Idea #17 "rewilding VS the people" with Rebecca Wrigley

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Bad Idea #17 "rewilding VS the people" with Rebecca Wrigley · Saving the World From Bad Ideas

0:00
Rewilding is the mass restoration of ecosystems or
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mass restoration of nature to the point where it can take care
0:06
of itself but also take care of us.
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So at its heart, it's about restoring natural processes.
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My ideal would be that we have rewilding right in the hearts of
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our cities, kind of leading from people's doorsteps into their
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local parks, their gardens, and now that's connected into the
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wider landscape. One of the myths of rewilding
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that is about going back to the past rather than in a sense
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releasing the future. And as our climates are are
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changing, for instance, that our climate zones are changing.
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And it might be that it what it's releasing is a new array of
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species, for instance, that's going to be constantly changing.
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So it's not about fixing it in the past, it's about releasing
0:45
or allowing nature to do what it does best into the future.
0:51
Welcome to saving the world from bad ideas.
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I'm Mark Linus, and I've had a few bad ideas in my time.
0:56
I used to go out in the night time to destroy GMO crops, and I
0:59
also posed nuclear power. But then when I looked at the
1:02
science, I found I got it wrong. Oops.
1:05
I've learned the hard way that none of us are right all the
1:07
time. So now I'm here to challenge the
1:09
assumptions that we all too often take for granted because
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the future depends on us getting it right.
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Welcome to another episode of Saving the World from Bad Ideas.
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One of the things I like most about hosting a podcast is you
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get to talk to all your friends. So I'm particularly happy to
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welcome Rebecca Wrigley, who's chief executive of Rewilding
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Britain. Rebecca, welcome.
1:30
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
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We were just discussing with producer Rob before we hit go on
1:35
the recording, whether or not we had a bad idea for you.
1:38
Because obviously the theme here is saving the world from bad
1:40
ideas. And I'm we meant to have had a
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bad idea beforehand that I can use to introduce you with.
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But I thought maybe we could just talk talk this through.
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So and there's a lot of bad ideas about rewilding
1:49
circulating out there. What's like the worst idea about
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rewilding that you've heard? And we could maybe use that as a
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sort of conversation starter. The absolute worst, stupidest
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thing that people say about about rewilding.
2:01
And there must be a few to choose from.
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Oh God yes. I mean, I was.
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I'm just glad that you that the bad idea isn't rewilding, as in
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that you were proposing that rewilding was the bad idea.
2:11
No, because it is not. No, we'd love.
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Rather than bad ideas, there's lots of myths like rewilding is
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kicking people off the land or rewilding is just about bears
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and wolves. So there's lots of sort of myths
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about rewilding. Whether there is a bad idea
2:28
about rewilding. I'm not, I'm not so.
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Sure, just about but how about yeah, about bears and wolves and
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not people. Maybe that's C we're trying
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we've got to summarize it in in something that'll go on a social
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media slides that they can use. But so I think yeah, maybe about
2:40
about wolves, bears and wolves, not people.
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That can be that that can be the bad idea because I mean, it's
2:45
definitely a you know, it's definitely something you hear,
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isn't it? Is that rewilding?
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Ultimately, there's some kind of shady campaign to bring wolves
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back so that they can, you know, attack our livestock and our
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children. And in reality, rewilding's a
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totally different concept. So for those who for the kind of
3:01
uninitiated, can you give us a kind of very broad overview of
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what rewilding actually is as opposed to the myths that are
3:06
out there? So rewilding is the mass
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restoration of ecosystems or mass restoration of nature to
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the point where it can take care of itself but also take care of
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us. So at its heart, it's about
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restoring natural processes. So that might be restore
3:23
naturally flowing rivers, for instance, or reintroducing
3:27
species where they are missing to bring back the sort of
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dynamic of nature and to restore its remarkable weather life.
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But it's also about people. So it's about finding a balance
3:40
between people and nature so that both can thrive.
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So it's about linking nature's restoration with economic and
3:47
social regeneration, for instance.
3:49
So it can be an impetus for creating what we might call
3:53
nature based economies, for instance, or for a just
3:56
transition. I mean, ultimately it's about
3:58
the lifting systems on which we all depend.
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We depend on them for food and for protection from flooding,
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and for clean air and clean water and for our own health and
4:07
well-being. It's inherently A systemic
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approach, as is nature. I'd quite like to think back to
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where the rewilding concept first originated.
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I mean, I think I first heard about it, actually, and your
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husband George Mondeo's book Ferrell, which I always
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pronounced Ferrell for some reason, but apparently it's
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pronounced Ferrell. And yeah.
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And and that was such a sort of, it was probably the first
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positive book that George had ever written.
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And it was. And it was really inspiring.
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Just, you know, it was all about him out in this kayak, you know,
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seeing dolphins sleeping and, and just like, but it wasn't
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just about being out there and seeing nature.
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It was, it was actually kind of a, a rewilding of almost your
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whole sort of life and your whole philosophy was the origin
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of rewilding Britain around that time as well.
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I'm not sure exactly how it, how it got started, but you know,
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it's, it's, it's, it's become this, this world pretty, pretty
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big NGO. You've got large numbers of
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staff now and a big turnover. So like tell us how how the
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whole organizations have started and then then evolved?
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Yes, it was catalyzed, I suppose, by Georges, but
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Ferrell. And so a few people contacted
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him and got in touch and say look, we've got to do something
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about this. And as it happens, I come from a
5:18
background of conservation and developments.
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I worked overseas in Mexico, Uganda and the Pacific,
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initially working in forest restoration.
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But clearly we became very evident, for instance, land in
5:31
Mexico is largely communally owned that you can't do
5:35
conservation and restoration without community involvement,
5:38
community engagement and community regeneration.
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So that's kind of the background that I come from and I just been
5:46
made redundant. And the point, all these people
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were contacting him and saying we need to do something.
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I got involved and offered to help.
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And I think at the point where everyone else said yes, yes,
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yes, let's set up an organization and get something
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going in in Britain, people, you know, everyone else was looking
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at their feet and I happened to have my sort of head up and
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ended up getting roped into setting up Rewilding Britain.
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This is our 10th anniversary year, which is quite exciting.
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And yeah, we're now over 30 people, which I don't think I
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could possibly have imagined 10 years ago, but seems to have
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really generated some interest and helped start as kind of
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mainstream rewilding, both in our consciousness but also in
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our practice. And so, so what's the current
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size of Rewilding Rd. like? Just give us a sense of of where
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you are as an organization. So we're just over 30 people. 30
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people like full time or part time or.
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Combination actually I'm not sure what the full time
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equivalent would be, probably 20-5 maybe.
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And we primarily work on three things.
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One is catalyzing rewilding. So helping those that want to
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rewild are interested in in doing so to in the sort of
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develop solutions to rewilding in practice.
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So we have a rewilding network which now has over 1000 members
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and covers about 180,000 hectares.
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So that's a sort of peer support group.
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They learn from each other and share ideas and share practices.
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But we also provide support to them including some funding.
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So we have some innovation funding, some sort of small
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grants and an annual challenge fund that's 100,000 lbs to help
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a kind of early stage idea scale up.
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So more focused on the larger scale rewilding projects on
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land, but also at sea. So we also do, we did both
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marine and terrestrial rewilding.
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So that's helping to catalyse rewilding in practice.
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We also influence. So we want to create an enabling
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context for rewilding in terms of policies, legislation,
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regulation, funding and financing and research.
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So we work a lot in in advocacy. We've got got a quite a big team
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and across the devolved nations. So someone looking at UK stroke,
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England, Wales and Scotland, because obviously a lot of the
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policies and legislation covering all kind of relating to
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rewilding are devolved. And then we engage people in
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rewilding and primarily with an with the idea that we want to
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just normalize rewilding is just a normal way of managing the
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land and sea. And sort of in again, in
8:23
people's consciousness, this is just in the 21st century in
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relation to what we're asking of the land and sea.
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Rewilding is actually a really productive use of the land and
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sea. So it's, you know, why shouldn't
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it become just part of the way that we do things?
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Right. And it depends on scale, doesn't
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it? Because you know, I'm in Welsh
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borders, I've got 6 acres of, well, I kind of consider it
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rewilding. It's a lot easier to maintain
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not having to do huge amounts of work on it.
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But you know, I've got little blackthorn bushes appearing,
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lots of butterflies, even orchids have have come back to
8:55
the land. And it just has a sense has has
8:58
this kind of feeling of almost like being an Oasis because
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we're surrounded by a lot of livestock.
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Sheep wrecked, I think was the term that George coined and and
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dairy cattle as well. And it just feels vulnerable.
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But you know, I can't have a fully functioning Wolf Pack on
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and also all the different kind of trophic levels that you'd get
9:17
on on much larger scales. So give us a sense of of how
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rewilding looks in practice at different scales.
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So I mean, I think probably one of the other myths is that
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rewilding is, you know, distant from people or just on large
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landscapes, when actually it can happen at all scales,
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particularly where it's connected.
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So for me, my ideal would be that we have rewilding right in
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the hearts of our cities, kind of leading from people's
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doorsteps into their local parks, their gardens, and now
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that's connected into the wider landscape, maybe through river
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corridors, for instance. So you can get the scale that is
9:56
needed to allow nature to lead more through connectivity just
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as much as you can do through kind of large, probably isolated
10:06
landscapes. So, and at sea even more So what
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we're calling for. And there's some exciting kind
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of momentum building behind that, not least because of David
10:17
Attenborough's film Ocean, which has really identified the need
10:21
for not just protecting areas of of the sea, but stopping the
10:26
damaging activities that are currently happening here.
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And the benefits that that can bring both for nature, which we
10:31
bounce really quickly at sea, but also for the surrounding
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areas because of this spillover effect.
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If you've got these breeding grounds and nurseries and places
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of abundance, you know, fish obviously can swim and they can
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move into other areas where they improve fisheries.
10:47
So it's kind of win, win at sea. Yeah, I mean, there's, it's
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always difficult to imagine a more ecologically destructive
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practice than bottom trawling, which, you know, they're just
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dragging this machinery along this across the seabed, which
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plows it out, disturbs the sediment just hard, just
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destroys all of the marine life that's down there.
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And yet it's still apparently being done in our own marine
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protected areas around the UKI don't know what the case is in
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other countries. And I believe the government's
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just changed, just changed policy on that.
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And that was announced at the UN Oceans conference.
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So things do feel like they're moving in the in the ocean
11:22
space, don't they? I think.
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That's a really great example of a kind of how we see change
11:28
happening. So we need to normalise
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rewilding and what Ocean has done is, I mean in particular is
11:35
actually showing people because one of the problems with the sea
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is people don't see the damage that is happening.
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So they filmed, you don't have many of your listeners have seen
11:44
the film and I would encourage them to do so, but they filmed a
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bottom trawler trawling along the bottom of the sea and the
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damage and the devastation that that causes.
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I mean, you can even see it from space, the the sort of trails
11:58
along the sea beds that happen. So that's kind of shifted
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people's consciousness. It's almost like you can't Unsee
12:04
that and people now know what it looks like and the damage that's
12:07
doing. So that's kind of shifted
12:09
consciousness and public thinking that then has
12:11
influenced policy. So you rightfully say that
12:16
government has banned bottom trawling and dredging not across
12:19
all our marine protected areas, which is slightly odd because
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how can you call it a marine protected area when you allow
12:25
one of those damaging practices that we know of.
12:28
But they've increased the area in which bottom drawing and
12:31
project is banned across our system of our marine protected
12:34
areas, which is a really positive thing.
12:36
So that's kind of public thinking, public consciousness,
12:39
influencing politicians that change policy, that shift the
12:43
way that we do things. And that's kind of the way that
12:46
we work, I suppose, as an organization looking for systems
12:48
change and systems transformation to create the,
12:51
the kind of ambition for change that we want to see.
12:53
So ultimately we want to see 30% of our land and seas rewilding
12:58
and, and again, coming back to our what was it bad idea.
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That's not kicking people off the land and sea.
13:04
It's not about bears and wolves rampaging across the landscape
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or, but it is across a spectrum of, of approaches.
13:12
So in essence, it's a sort of shift in mindset towards
13:15
managing for natural processes rather than managing for
13:18
maximizing kind of production, as it were.
13:22
So that can include some, you know, on lands that can include
13:27
some forms of grazing because cattle aura or the wild former
13:31
cattle was a native species in Britain.
13:33
So you might have places like the Leper state, which many
13:36
people might know of because of the film Wilding, where they
13:39
still have cattle and deer and they kind of act as their as the
13:44
top predator and cull some of those each year and produce
13:48
meat, for instance. And we're looking at ways in
13:51
which we can would natural process LED forestry be, for
13:54
instance, so one of our native species or previously was
13:59
straight clust elephants, for instance.
14:01
So our our forests and Woodlands are elephants adapted in
14:04
essence, which is why many of them coppice so well, because
14:08
they're used to being knocked down, pulled up and then
14:11
regrowing. And so it'd be really
14:13
interesting to explore forestry practices, for instance, that
14:15
mimic natural processes and that could be part of a rewilding
14:19
system. Yeah, it's amazing to think
14:21
about what you'd consider to be a native, native species for at
14:25
least for for the UK and in fact for for everywhere.
14:27
Of course. I mean, it raises the question
14:30
of where you set the baseline, because elephant adapted species
14:33
in the UKI mean there might be maybe it's about mammoths, or
14:36
maybe you're even going back to the last interglacer when
14:38
there's lions and hippos and in the Thames and things like, is
14:42
there a particular point where you say, right, this is this is
14:44
what a wild ecosystem looked like before, I don't know, I
14:47
guess before humans came along? Or is it always about sort of
14:50
grey areas and nuance? I mean, again, that's one of the
14:53
myths of rewilding that is about going back to the past rather
14:56
than in a sense releasing the future.
14:58
So if you start to put back in those natural processes, it
15:02
builds the sort of functional resilience of nature.
15:06
And as our climates are changing, for instance, that our
15:09
climate zones are changing and it might be that it what it's
15:12
releasing or is a new array of species, for instance, that's
15:16
going to be constantly changing. So it's not about fixing it in
15:19
the past, it's about releasing or allowing nature to do what it
15:23
does best into the future. Yeah, I know you make a good .1
15:28
of the reports that I think I wrote alongside you actually a
15:31
few years ago with Rewounding Britain.
15:33
I think I worked out that the climate zones were shifting by
15:36
20 meters a day, you know, obviously going going to the
15:41
north in the Northern Hemisphere because of the warming process.
15:43
So of course, like species can't just well, return to the past or
15:47
stay in in a kind of stasis. I mean, these are going to be
15:49
rewilded. Ecosystems are going to be,
15:51
well, anthropogenic in that sense, and also quite novel,
15:54
right? Yes, and I think so.
15:57
That comes back to the idea of rewilding being about a sort of
16:03
spectrum of approaches, but also creating connectivity.
16:05
So one of the problems with climate zones moving N is if
16:10
they come across intensively managed land, it's like this big
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barrier that they can't cross because species will have to
16:16
move. And I think that work that you
16:19
mentioned kind of highlighted that having ecological
16:23
connectivity through the landscape and more resilient
16:26
ecosystems would I kind of reduce the threatened risk of
16:29
species extinction by I think it was 1/5 for instance.
16:33
So, so it's really important to have that connectivity so that
16:35
we build in resilience to the changes that are already built
16:38
in, as well as obviously rewilding in nature being a
16:42
natural climate solution in one of the most effective and
16:45
particularly cost effective ways of drawing carbon out of the
16:50
atmosphere and storing it. Yeah, in, I think, I can't
16:54
remember what the figures were, but regenerating native
16:56
Woodlands, wetlands, blue carbon and the coastal marine
17:01
environment, I mean, these are places where carbon can be
17:05
sequestered in the long term. And it's one of the biggest
17:07
drawdown options for removing the excess carbon dioxide that's
17:11
now in the atmosphere. And of course, it has the
17:14
benefit of being a way of enhancing nature and also
17:17
tackling the biodiversity crisis at the same time as climate.
17:19
So for me, that was one of the things that is so exciting about
17:23
about rewilding is, is that that's, you know, allowing
17:27
nature to restore itself, actually tackle some of the
17:30
biggest crises that we face. But I want to try and drill down
17:34
about how this looks. And maybe this is another myth
17:37
about, you know, kicking people off the land or perhaps also
17:41
look at rewilding and agriculture and farming.
17:44
You mentioned the NEP estate, which is a sort of totemic
17:47
rewilding estate in Southern England.
17:50
And in some ways it's like very low intensity regenerative
17:54
agriculture and producing a certain amount of beef, right.
17:56
I mean, you can you can tell me a lot more about this than I
17:59
know. So what's the what's the
18:01
spectrum there between like the most high intensive livestock or
18:04
arable farming and the, you know, a kind of fully wild
18:08
ecosystem? Yeah.
18:09
I mean, we've done some work including an infographic looking
18:11
at that spectrum. And so you might have at one end
18:15
what we might call Corey, welding areas where you've
18:18
restored as much as possible what they call trophic systems.
18:22
So trophic cascades are this way that nature works.
18:26
That works much more as a sort of way, with different species
18:30
playing different roles with the.
18:32
Terrific just means eating, doesn't it?
18:33
Well, yeah, I mean, so you've got predators.
18:36
I think they originally thought they were, and they were called
18:39
apex predators at the top of this system.
18:42
These are almost pyramid. And then predators eat the
18:44
herbivores that eat the grass that eat that, you know, And
18:47
whereas they're much more now realizing and understanding that
18:51
it's much more of a sort of web of life rather than a pyramid
18:54
with apex predators at the top. And there are particular species
18:57
called keystone species that play, you know, a really
19:00
important role in that in a similar way to the keystone of
19:06
an arch in a church, for instance, if you take a
19:08
keystone, which is a stone at the top out, the arch collapses.
19:12
And if you take keystone species out of a system, what can happen
19:16
is ecological collapse. And then it's very difficult to
19:18
kick start that or upgrade that ecosystem if you don't put those
19:22
keystone species back in. Beavers in the in Britain are an
19:26
example of a keystone species because what they do is create
19:30
wetlands and, and sort of engineer their environment
19:34
through cutting down trees for instance, and through the
19:37
channels that they make and through creating dams that then
19:40
create habitats for other species to to sort of come back
19:43
in. So they kind of are amazing kick
19:46
starters of nature's restoration, in addition to
19:50
helping us with flood mitigation and cleaning our waters and
19:54
allowing the silt and sedimentation and sort of
19:57
pollution to sort of filter out of the water.
20:00
So they're this amazing ecosystem engineer that if you
20:03
put them back into the system, help kick start regeneration.
20:08
I guess the question is how farmers and people who are
20:11
living on the land can actually make a living economically doing
20:14
this. And a particular challenge for
20:16
me is my neighbor dairy farmer who's found out what I do in
20:20
terms of advocacy with his rebuilding against my, against
20:24
all my efforts. And sometimes when the cows are
20:27
crossing the road for milking, he stops and, you know, we have
20:29
a chat and he says, well, what am I, what am I meant to be
20:31
doing? You know, you keep talking about
20:33
all this, you know, removing livestock and veganism stuff.
20:36
What am I meant to do? How am I meant to make a living?
20:38
So and I, I struggle, you know, I can give him verbiage about
20:41
carbon sequestration and stuff and he's not particularly, you
20:44
know, that's, that's not working for him.
20:46
So what should I be telling him about how his business can adapt
20:51
in a kind of rewilding direction and he and so that he can still
20:54
make a living with his family first?
20:55
Thing to say is that we're not calling for rewilding
20:58
everywhere. So you know what we have done is
21:01
had a look at. So there's this, there's a a
21:05
kind of global commitment to 30% for nature by 20-30, which our
21:09
leaders have also signed up too. We don't think it's good enough
21:13
to just halt the decline of nature.
21:15
We want to see the restoration of nature.
21:17
And so we want to see rewilding across 30% of Britain, not just
21:23
the protection of nature, because if we simply protect it,
21:26
we're going to end up with more national parks and protected
21:30
areas like the ones we've already got, which are nature
21:34
depleted. I mean, it's a very often quoted
21:37
statistic that we are one of the most nature depleted countries
21:40
on Earth. I think 180 ninth out of 218
21:44
countries in the world in terms of nature depletion.
21:47
So it's it's a pretty desperate place to be and we need to do
21:51
better. We need to restore nature.
21:53
So, and again, across, across the spectrum, not, we're not
21:58
seeing 30% people kicked off the land, bears and wolves,
22:02
absolutely not. Because in terms of our
22:06
principles of rewilding people, we see people as part of nature.
22:09
We are just another species within, within that ecosystem.
22:12
So it's not about reserves over there, nature reserves and, and
22:17
people over here have. And so it's all about how can we
22:20
find that balance between people and nature so both can thrive.
22:24
And when I say thrive, I mean not just thrive ecologically,
22:27
but also economically. Because if it doesn't work
22:29
economically, if it doesn't provide livelihoods and jobs and
22:33
help kind of regenerate a lot of the rural and coastal
22:36
communities that have suffered and are often the most deprived
22:40
in the country, then it's just not going to work.
22:43
It's not going to become part of the mainstream approach.
22:46
But a lot of the land that we're looking at is probably quite
22:49
marginal land already. It's not the high grade
22:52
agricultural land where we need to produce food.
22:56
Obviously that is what its primary purpose is, but there
22:59
are other areas of land and the mapping that we've done would
23:02
suggest that we could shift 30% of our land towards a rewilding
23:07
approach with very minimal input perhaps on food production.
23:11
But it does mean making some choices.
23:13
For instance. And you know, in essence what we
23:17
are calling for is a kind of rethink of based on the
23:21
challenges of the 21st century, what is the most effective and
23:25
and productive use of the land and sea.
23:27
And we would see rewilding as part of that for the reasons
23:30
that you highlighted earlier around its ability to store
23:34
carbon, it's climate resilience, restoring nature, health and
23:38
well-being, flood mitigation, drought resilience, clean water,
23:42
you know, any number of those benefits that sort of layer on.
23:45
It's not just one benefit, it's it's multiple benefits.
23:49
But what we're seeing is that it can and across the network that
23:52
I mentioned earlier, we're seeing that it can boost job
23:56
numbers. It's not about reducing them and
23:59
often it's about the existing jobs so that we're still seeing
24:04
roles for graziers and stock managers, for instance, because
24:08
capital and other herbivores are part of or can be part of the
24:11
rewilding system and do still need to be managed, for
24:14
instance. But you then so, so there's
24:16
quite a lot of the sort of what you might think of as more
24:19
traditional land based jobs. We still need stalkers for
24:22
instance, particularly in England.
24:25
We have far too many deer damaging the ecosystem.
24:28
It's damaging farming, for instance.
24:30
And what we'd like to see is, you know, a national deer
24:32
management strategy that involves culling deer.
24:36
But, and so there's more jobs for stalkers, but we need that
24:39
to get into, we need them to be able to earn an income from that
24:42
and for that to get into the food chain, for instance, so
24:45
that we're seeing wild caught venison sold in our supermarkets
24:48
and not farmed business and from New Zealand.
24:51
And we're seeing lots of opportunities for what might you
24:53
might call nature based enterprises, as in ones that
24:57
help nature to thrive, but also provide opportunities for local
25:00
communities. But we've collected some data
25:02
from across our network and we're seeing, I think it's a,
25:06
it's certainly a doubling of, of full time equivalent job numbers
25:09
across that area. But also interestingly, it's, I
25:12
think it was 12 times as many volunteers are involved in those
25:16
initiatives. So we're seeing more people
25:18
engage with the land and with the way that the land is managed
25:22
and more jobs, so it doesn't have to be at the cost of jobs
25:27
or livelihoods or sort of local economies.
25:31
I wonder whether that will scale though, because the sort of the
25:33
NEP model is partly because NEP is so unique.
25:38
So people want to go there and they want to see this incredibly
25:41
diverse landscape which is thriving from after having been,
25:45
you know, previously rather desolate farmland.
25:48
And now it looks like a sort of African, you know, safari
25:51
almost. But if you, you know, if, if,
25:53
uh, 30% of farms in the UK were doing this, then it wouldn't be
25:58
so unique anymore. And you know, is, is there a
26:01
model there which is scalable and provides that kind of
26:04
economic benefits from what you've seen?
26:06
And I'd love to hear any kind of examples from across the network
26:09
because I know there's loads of interesting things are going on
26:10
which you're supporting with this small, small grant scheme,
26:13
including, including in my area. So it's, it's, it's the kind of
26:17
the diversity of different approaches, I think is what's 1
26:19
of the things that's most inspiring about, about what
26:21
you're doing. So I'd love to hear some
26:22
examples too. I mean, again, it comes back to
26:25
choices. And what are we asking of the
26:27
lands and then how do we support that and particularly support it
26:32
through public funding? So currently the way that the
26:34
land is used is largely determined by the subsidies,
26:39
public subsidies that go into farming for instance.
26:42
So we are paying to have sheep across the uplands for instance,
26:46
which is a loss making industry and wouldn't exist without those
26:49
public subsidies. And again, public subsidies,
26:52
what has been a good initiative in our experience at the sort of
26:56
UK, England level is around orientating public funding
27:00
towards the provision of public goods.
27:03
There's been a commitment towards that.
27:04
So that's sort of environmental goods and potentially rewilding.
27:08
So again, it's about choices. For instance, in Britain, a huge
27:12
area of our land is used for grass shooting and deer
27:15
stalking, for instance. I think, I think I'm right in
27:18
saying it's about 1.4 million hectares of land across Britain
27:22
is orientated towards grass shooting and 1.8 million towards
27:27
deer stalking. So that's that's a choice that
27:29
we're making about land use. And one of the things that we've
27:32
evolved in, for instance, is the UK government have proposed a
27:37
new land use strategy, which might sound like a, you know,
27:40
reasonably sort of boring and banal kind of initiative.
27:44
But actually what it's about is us as a nation deciding what's
27:48
the best use of the land in the face of the challenges of the
27:51
21st century over the next 25 years.
27:54
So it's a really vital thing. We'd love to see more people
27:57
involved in making those decisions, those that live and
28:01
work on the land, but also those of us who have a stake in that,
28:05
in making those decisions. And we'd like to see public
28:08
funding going into supporting a shift in in land use again, so
28:13
that it addresses the challenges that we're facing.
28:16
We're in a climate emergency, we're in a major emergency.
28:19
We need to produce food, we need to produce timber.
28:22
We need human health and well-being.
28:24
We need to be able to balance all of those things.
28:26
So it's not about is it food production or rewilding, or is
28:31
it timber or reproduction or rewilding.
28:33
It's about finding a balance between all of these different
28:37
needs and imperatives. And that's different from, I
28:41
mean, our, our land use at the moment really was determined
28:45
post war or post Second World War, the 60s we've got how how
28:49
long ago was that? And you know, what we're asking
28:52
of the land and sea is different in the 21st century.
28:54
And actually that's quite central to our world view at we
28:58
Planet, which is really I think what the real core concepts are.
29:02
I think land sparing is probably one of them, which is why we
29:07
support, you know, more high intensity agriculture on smaller
29:10
parcels of land so that we can then spare as fully for nature
29:15
as possible the the, the land that's freed up from that while
29:18
at the same time continuing to feed a growing human population.
29:20
But we all do need to eat a lot less meat and and dairy, rumen
29:25
and some particular. So it's like beef, beef and lamb
29:27
are particularly land. I think it's extensive.
29:29
So they use huge amounts of land to produce, you know, small
29:32
numbers of, of calories. That's also where we're keen on
29:35
alternative proteins and some of the plant based alternatives to
29:39
to meet, which are becoming more and more available.
29:42
And same actually with GMOs and some of the novel techniques
29:45
that can hopefully move move this forward.
29:47
Like do you get involved in that, that kind of broader
29:50
agenda with rewilding or do you just try and focus on, on the
29:54
specific projects that you're supporting?
29:56
Again, it's, it's if we get a mainstream rewilding as an, as
30:00
an approach we have to engage in, how do we rebalance our, I
30:05
mean, again, well, our land and marine use over the next 20-30
30:10
years. And that again does involve
30:13
choices. I mean, I think the national
30:15
food strategy, for instance, also identified that if we eat
30:18
less meat and it's not necessarily asking people to go
30:21
vegan, for instance, but eating a lot less.
30:24
So that land that is currently dedicated to pasture could then
30:29
shift into maybe some land could shift into more intensive
30:33
agricultural use and other land could shift into much less
30:35
intensive uses like rewilding, but could still involve grazing
30:39
again, because we need grazing as an, as a natural process.
30:42
So I think it again, it, it's, it is about having a kind of
30:48
national conversation about this.
30:49
How do we balance that? And logically eating less meat
30:54
would help with that balance. So yes, it is a debate.
30:57
It's it's not a central part of our work.
30:59
But for instance, we did a submission to the land use
31:03
framework consultation that the government put out and very much
31:06
called for this. For instance, at the moment, the
31:09
different classifications of land that were described in that
31:12
framework are agricultural, not agricultural and urban.
31:17
So you know, and to my mind, you can't define something by by
31:22
what it's not, not by what it is.
31:24
So what we'd like to see for instance, is a new land use
31:27
classification of natural process LED land.
31:31
And we'd like to see 30% of Britain reclassified so that
31:34
it's almost like this mindset shift again coming back to that
31:38
kind of how do we normalise this of how do we see this as a valid
31:42
and unproductive land use? And how do we then with the the
31:47
remaining land, how do we use that most productive?
31:49
And some of that will involve shifting things from pasture,
31:53
particularly the least productive past the most
31:55
marginal pastures, into a rewilding approach or make a
31:59
decision about whether to focus on other forms of protein
32:02
production. Yeah, I mean, the livestock
32:04
issue is so gigantic. I can't remember what the
32:06
figures are, but it's something like 1/3 or half of a land in
32:09
the UK goes to supporting livestock and, and, and meat and
32:13
dairy production. If you include the, you know,
32:15
the feedstock as well, and particularly the proteins that
32:18
are being imported from, from abroad.
32:20
So, and, and actually, if you look at it like literally
32:22
everything else is a rounding error.
32:23
Solar parks and golf courses or even housing estates and
32:26
urbanization, things that we argue over from a land use
32:29
perspective actually are really, really trivial compared to the,
32:32
the impact of livestock. And, you know, in, in in the
32:36
upland areas, huge parts of of the UK.
32:40
And I see this in Wales. You know, the Brecon Beacons
32:43
National Park, which is my closest one, I think has a
32:46
million sheep or, you know, and they had a nature restoration
32:49
strategy. And I looked at this document on
32:51
the web and I did a sort of control F thing to try and find,
32:56
you know, it's sheep. There's no mention at all.
32:58
I've tried livestock, no mention at all.
33:00
And so it's almost like the main threats to nature that they see
33:02
it come from, I don't know, dog walkers and climate change.
33:05
Literally, there was this cliche as the elephant in the room, but
33:09
they really weren't able. And perhaps for cultural
33:13
reasons, because livestock, such a sort of culturally significant
33:18
issue still, particularly sheep farming in Wales and other forms
33:21
of livestock husbandry elsewhere in Europe and around the world.
33:26
Like, it's the cultural shift, isn't it?
33:28
Which is going to be going to be key as well because nobody's
33:31
making money on this and it's in fact all taxpayer, taxpayers
33:33
supported. But if you say anything against
33:35
it and you criticize sheep farming, then you're in a whole
33:37
world of pain. I think we should find a
33:39
position where it isn't antagonistic.
33:42
Again, it's not anti livestock farmer for instance, it's about
33:46
a conversation about our common future and grazing for instance
33:51
in a rewilding model is a really important element of that.
33:53
And so again, as in the network members that we've got, many of
33:58
them are still using grazing and still using domestic animals to
34:01
do that grazing. Yeah, actually, I'll, I'll cite
34:04
our example for sorry to interrupt, but why Valley
34:06
Wilding, which has got one of your grants actually, which is
34:08
my local network that I actually helped to set up.
34:11
There's a local farmer here who supplies, you know, native
34:16
breeds of cattle, which then he moves around between all the
34:18
different rewilding areas because they're all too small to
34:20
have their own herds. And it's just a really, I think
34:24
it's just a lovely model. So he can bring the cattle on
34:26
off as is appropriate in a, in a rewilding system and he does the
34:29
same with sheep and so on. So, you know, there's, there's a
34:31
livelihood for for a local farmer which is entirely
34:34
integrated with some of the rewilding that's going on here.
34:37
And you know that could include tenants and and commoners for
34:40
instance. So met a great couple.
34:44
So I live South of Dart or on an estate National Trust estate
34:47
near Exeter who are a young couple tenant farmers.
34:51
They were looking for a way into into the sector really struggled
34:55
and the National Trust offered them a tenancy and they're now
34:58
they've got a model of native breeds managing them very
35:02
extensively. It was part of a kind of
35:04
rewilding system and then they're selling the meat.
35:06
For instance. There's also approaches being
35:09
proposed or visions being proposed.
35:11
But Dartmoor where there is still obviously grazing
35:14
involved, it's just what's the density and at what time of year
35:18
and how is it managed. And so again, there's still
35:21
roles for people managing stock and there's still livelihoods
35:25
both again, the more traditional ones and new ones and what
35:30
they're proposing on dart or is to manage to hurt them more for
35:33
instance, and control when that grazing happens, at what time of
35:37
year, what density and what type of animal.
35:39
So again, it's not taking grazing out of the Ecos, the
35:43
system completely and it's it's about finding that balance and
35:47
being able to have that conversation.
35:49
So it's really important to sustain local livelihoods and
35:52
sustain local culture, for instance, and to involve people
35:57
in decision making. I mean, I come from again, an
35:59
International Development background and worked in Mexico
36:02
where the land is communally owned and there are community
36:04
councils making decisions about how that land is is managed.
36:08
And you know, that is very much informed sort of our approach in
36:13
the sense that we would like to see much more community
36:16
engagement in an ownership of of of the land.
36:20
For example, there is the Langham initiative in the South
36:23
of Scotland where the local community of Langham bought out
36:26
an ex grass shooting estate owned by the Duke of Placlue and
36:30
are now managing that sort of linking rewilding in nature's
36:34
restoration with community regeneration.
36:37
So this can be an opportunity to revitalize, you know,
36:41
ecologically and economically. So what are some of the species
36:45
that we're seeing being brought back here?
36:47
I'm thinking of Beaver and elk and things.
36:48
And tell me, tell me what the most exciting sort of species
36:52
restoration that you've seen around the UK has been so far?
36:56
I mean, Beavers are obviously the sort of success story.
36:59
Didn't that, how did that? I mean didn't that, wasn't that
37:01
like gorilla rewilding? Weren't they mysteriously
37:04
appearing around the UK because the government was?
37:07
I mean, tell me the story of how this how this transpired because
37:10
I'm a bit vague by the details. Well, yes, they have appeared in
37:13
places where they didn't previously exist.
37:16
You know how that's happened. It's an is a total mystery yes,
37:21
but initially in Scotland, but they are but now spreading in
37:25
Scotland. Also in Britain in well near us
37:28
in the river Otter and Devon, they're also spreading.
37:32
We wouldn't necessarily advocate for illegal releases feces for
37:35
instance. There was a big controversy
37:37
recently in Scotland where I think it was 3 links were sort
37:41
of three basically hand reared lints were dumped by A roadside
37:45
and that was, you know, claimed to be gorilla rewilding, which I
37:49
think it was more like someone dumping their pet links.
37:53
So we wouldn't want rewilding reintroductions to be sort of
37:57
associated with that approach. Whereas there's much more
37:59
exciting links reintroductions initiatives in Scotland and on
38:04
the Borders to do this in a really considered way, as in
38:06
with community consultation and involvement and under IUCN
38:11
guidelines. So there's links reintroduction
38:14
for instance proposed. It hasn't moved to the stage of
38:17
actually doing that. But there's also, you know, any
38:20
number of those white tailed eagles, Golden Eagles spreading
38:23
S from Scotland. There's pine Martens, chuffs.
38:28
But I think I think that what is important to emphasize, it's not
38:32
just about the big charismatic species.
38:35
They're really important both in kickstarting the ecosystems, but
38:39
also in bringing attention and, and interest and excitement
38:42
that, you know, of an epistate that we mentioned before.
38:44
For instance, they've reintroduced white stalks and
38:46
that's created an enormous amount of interest.
38:49
But there are also projects reintroducing sphagnum mosses
38:52
to, you know, peatlands in the, in Yorkshire because they're
38:56
missing the, the peatlands were drained and the sphagnum mosses
39:00
dried out and now need reintroducing.
39:02
So, and one of my favourites is glow worms, which were, you
39:07
know, part of our ecosystem and were really common and and now
39:13
aren't. So I think it's kind of across
39:15
that whole kind of amazing sort of mosaic or we want to build
39:20
back that kind of web of life and all the exciting abundance
39:23
and diversity that comes with it.
39:25
And then we come to the, the W word, the wah wah word.
39:29
Now I'm meaning wolves. I did a, a early podcast
39:33
actually with Luigi Boyitani. I don't know if you had a chance
39:36
to hear it, but he was just fascinating to talk to, partly
39:39
because I didn't realise quite how extensive wolf sort of
39:42
recolonisation had been in, in continental Europe.
39:45
And you know, it's not like rewilders were moving the
39:48
wolves. They moved themselves from
39:50
remaining populations. Then I think in Italy and then
39:52
the Iberian Peninsula and one or two other places.
39:56
And I think it's now true to say there's wolves in every, well,
39:59
from time to time now in every, in every country in continental
40:02
Europe. And if you've got countries as
40:05
you know, densely populated as Belgium and or Luxembourg and
40:08
they can have wolves like why, why can't we in in the UKI?
40:11
Mean we would ultimately love to see wolves reintroduced in the
40:16
in the UK. There's no reason why it
40:18
couldn't happen. But the challenge is, is that
40:22
we're an Ireland and historically we have got much
40:27
more used to living without predators than on continental
40:31
Europe. And so things like our whole
40:32
sort of farming systems are systems of herding, for
40:35
instance, have completely changed.
40:37
So there's a sort of, in a sense, a bigger shift.
40:41
We're not living with many of the species that people are just
40:45
accustomed to in Europe. But as long as I mean, it's a
40:48
bit like Beaver reintroductions, there are always going to be
40:53
challenges and potential conflicts.
40:55
And we just have to find proactive and positive ways of
40:59
mitigating that and learning to live again with carnivores in
41:04
our in our ecosystems. And again, for instance, with
41:07
Beavers, some of the potential problems are when they down a
41:10
watercourse that could lead to flooding, for instance.
41:13
But you can, you know, there are ways of addressing that.
41:16
There's this thing wonderful thing called a Beaver deceiver,
41:18
which is a little plug that you put in the dam that allows the
41:21
water to flow that stops and then kind of deceives them into
41:24
not building that dam out. Or you can just move them.
41:28
And, and ultimately there needs to be, you know, mitigating
41:31
measurement of lethal control, for instance, I mean, in in
41:34
Germany, I think it was something like there's a
41:36
population of 25,000 and there's an annual call of 3000 where the
41:39
problems it caused. So we've got to be pragmatic
41:42
about this again, particularly working with those communities
41:45
that might be most affected by their presence.
41:48
Yeah, I'm still hung up on the Beaver Deceiver here.
41:50
There's got to be my phrase of the day.
41:51
I think I'm going to Google it later and try and see what 1
41:55
looks like. But I mean, but the issue is if
41:58
you've got all these proliferating herbivores and you
42:00
mentioned deer earlier on, if you don't have the the carnivals
42:03
that The Who are the top premises to use the old lingo.
42:06
You don't have to manage them, manage their populations with
42:08
with human intervention. Don't you?
42:11
So like simulates we have to have.
42:12
I don't know whether the lynx would do the job or not and keep
42:14
the deer populations in some kind of stable situation, or
42:18
whether you do need wolves and bears ultimately to get to get
42:21
the whole food web back to some kind of a functional level.
42:25
I mean, it's, it's degrees, isn't it?
42:27
I mean, you know, for instance, lynx reintroduction, a lot of
42:30
foresters would love to see that because deer are causing so much
42:33
damage to our Woodlands. Also, grey squirrels, which I,
42:36
you know, don't know how many people know, are not a native
42:38
species and are equally causing damage.
42:41
And they mean that we can't use some of the broadleaf and
42:45
continuous cover forestry practices that they use in
42:48
continental Europe because of the deer and squirrel numbers
42:51
that there are in Britain, for instance.
42:52
So again, it's about what we learned from nature that is, is
42:56
that it is about balance again and it's about degree of, of
43:01
management. So this spectrum of rewilding
43:04
that I've referred to, at the higher end of that spectrum, you
43:07
will have these full trophic cascades where you, we would
43:10
love to see places where we have predators maintaining the sort
43:14
of balance of that system. But at other levels of of the
43:18
spectrum, we might see humans playing that role, for instance,
43:21
in annual culls of deer. And again, that's an opportunity
43:25
to bring food into the food system, for instance.
43:28
So it's about, I mean rewilding, it's almost synonymous with what
43:32
we might call natural process LED land and marine management.
43:36
And again, it's a sort of almost a mindset orientation.
43:39
We're not managing this primary purpose is restoring natural
43:42
processes, but it also can those areas can also produce some
43:47
forms of timber and meat, for instance.
43:50
And I'd love to see, for instance, in our agricultural
43:54
and Land Management colleges, a new discipline called natural
43:58
process LED management, because it's kind of shifting that brain
44:01
as land is, you know, we tend to think in silos and tend to put
44:05
things in boxes. And we see land as either kind
44:08
of conservation LED or forestry LED or farming.
44:12
And actually lots of our areas of land could be a mixture of
44:15
that. I mean, one example in our
44:16
network is a place called Wild Ken Hill in, in Norfolk, where a
44:20
third of the land is rewilding, 1/3 of is more traditional
44:24
conservation, so manage management orientated towards
44:29
specific species and a third is regenerative agriculture.
44:33
So you can have an amazing mixture of on anyone piece of
44:36
land. And you might want more
44:38
traditional conservation if you've got a particular species,
44:41
which is, you know, threatened. And, and it's one of the last
44:45
places. It's it's it's holding out.
44:47
You know, if you, if you rewild high air and you just get it
44:50
covered in brambles or something, then that that's
44:52
probably orchid or whatever. Yeah, Brambles.
44:55
Is scrub and transition to something else, so shouldn't be
44:59
too too worried by brambles or bracken.
45:01
But the reality is if we see just a lot more of our
45:04
ecosystems and nature managed in this way, we'll see a greater,
45:09
you know, volume of an abundance and we won't have to protect
45:11
tiny little patches for single species anymore.
45:14
I mean, there was an interesting debate that happened in Scotland
45:17
between I think the lichenologists and those wanting
45:20
Beavers to sort of spread across Scotland because the
45:23
lichenologists were up in arms because Beavers chopped down
45:26
trees and that might damage lichen.
45:29
And you just think, well, but if you just saw our forests and
45:35
Woodlands expanding across Scotland, including our sort of
45:39
wonderful temperate rainforests and Caledonian pine forests, you
45:42
wouldn't have to worry about a single tree that might get
45:45
knocked down by a Beaver that has lichen on it.
45:46
Because there'd just be a lot more, you know, amazing mixtures
45:50
and mosaics of, of habitats and, and, and species.
45:55
So you wouldn't have to try and defend, you know, that single
45:58
plot with a single species. Maybe the lycologists will have
46:02
to invest in the Beaver deceivers.
46:05
But I, I what, what does rewilding look like elsewhere in
46:08
the world? Because it's, it's pretty much a
46:10
global movement, right? I mean, we've talked a lot about
46:12
the UK because that's your, you know, that's your patch.
46:14
But what's it like in, in North America, South America and the
46:17
global South? So, so, yeah.
46:19
How does rewilding look elsewhere?
46:22
I mean there's a growing network across Europe led and supported
46:27
by Rewilding Europe. I think it takes us sort of
46:29
almost as well. I mean rewilding is different
46:32
depending on sort of culture and context.
46:34
It is an orientation towards natural process LED management.
46:38
But that might take, you know, again, as we talked about in
46:41
Britain, the whole idea, we can't, can't let or wait for
46:45
predators to move in as they can do in Europe because very few of
46:50
them can swim across the Channel.
46:52
So again, it has to be kind of led by local culture and
46:56
context, I think. So what might be an appropriate
46:59
form of rewilding in in Scandinavia for instance, where
47:02
you have large areas of, you know, forest, but huge problems
47:06
with forestry, actually plantation forestry and and
47:11
selling. It's sort of challenges and
47:14
barriers and opportunities are different, but it is a growing
47:17
movement. There's a global rewilding
47:19
alliance now that is bringing together organisations across
47:22
the world. They've got an amazing website
47:24
with sort of maps of showing you where initiatives are happening.
47:29
I recently visited my sister-in-law in Kenya and
47:32
there's some a rewilding project I've visited there where it's
47:36
outside the Masai Mara National Park.
47:38
And it used to be a bean farm, intensively irrigated.
47:43
And they've now let a lot of that they're sort of rewilding
47:46
it Reg allowing regeneration. And you might as well be within
47:50
the Massa Mara National Park in terms of the numbers and
47:53
diversity of animals. And they have a financial model
47:56
that's kind of partly community livelihood projects, but also
48:02
some tourism, some carbon credits, for instance.
48:05
So again, it's it's the principles are I think the same
48:09
across the world. It's around letting nature lead,
48:12
working at nature's scale, involving people and
48:15
communities, ensuring that rewilding supports nature based
48:20
enterprise and livelihoods and ensuring that the benefits are
48:23
sustained in the long term. So the principles are the same,
48:26
even though the kind of articulation of it might be
48:28
slightly different in different places.
48:30
I mean, obviously there are places like Canada and the
48:32
States where there are much Wilder areas already than there
48:36
are in Britain, for instance, and.
48:38
Pretty much everyone listening or watching can do rewilding,
48:41
right? It's not something that happens
48:43
a long way away with people who own lots of land.
48:45
I mean, you could rewild your window box or your little
48:47
scrapper back garden or whatever it happens to be, right?
48:49
Yeah, I mean, that's lovely. Initiatives like Nomo Mae, for
48:52
instance. We don't have to cut the grass
48:54
as often. We can allow the mixer, you
48:56
know, or apply fertilizers to make it all wonderfully green
49:00
and uniform and allow those wildflowers to return, let a bit
49:04
of scrub return. Get involved in your local park,
49:07
for instance, has a brilliant urban rewilding project.
49:10
There's, you know, a number around the country.
49:13
For instance, in Derby they're rewilding one of their urban
49:17
parks. In London, they've Sadiq Khan
49:20
put together a London rewilding task force.
49:22
So they've now got a rewilding plan for London, which is really
49:25
important both sort of ecologically, but it's sort of
49:28
bringing it into that sort of hearts of, of our cities and,
49:33
and proximity to people. So, so there's lots of, you
49:36
know, exciting initiatives and fundamentally rewilding is a
49:40
story of hope. I think in terms of what could
49:44
be in the future. Again, it's not about going back
49:46
to the past, it's about releasing the future.
49:48
You have to be comfortable with things being a little less tidy
49:51
as well, don't you? Yeah, you do.
49:53
But you know, it's interesting because one of the things that
49:55
we got involved in slightly randomly was a garden at the
49:59
Chelsea Flower Show, which the designers, 2 brilliant
50:02
designers, got in contact with us and said we'd like to do a
50:05
garden. We'd like it to have a rewilding
50:06
theme. So they recreated a sort of a
50:10
Beaver pond with a dam and, yeah, you know, sort of wetland
50:14
around it in this small patch in the middle of London.
50:18
And amazingly, the garden one, slightly controversially, Monty
50:23
Don, took exception. And, you know, there was lots of
50:25
debate about it. But what was amazing was so we
50:28
had people at the garden itself having conversations with all
50:32
the visitors. And lots of people kind of
50:33
wandered past this line of very ordered gardens and came to the
50:38
Rewilding Britain garden. And it was messy and, you know,
50:42
but there was this sort of sense almost of like this sort of
50:46
breadth. And the shoulders went down and
50:48
it was like, oh, this is really interesting.
50:50
And and I think again, it's like we're a nation of nature lovers
50:55
and we love, you know, what David Attenborough, all the
50:58
films that he's produced and the sort of Natural History films.
51:01
And we love seeing it through the sort of screen of our TV's
51:05
and kind of we always inherently know that that's that's
51:08
scruffiness and messiness and, you know, is, is beautiful and
51:13
amazing, but we don't see the comparison with what we see on a
51:17
screen and what we see out the window.
51:19
But I think that is shifting, and again, more provocative
51:24
films like Ocean are helping to make that shift.
51:27
Yeah, my, my solution is to mow very neat little paths through
51:30
the wider welding area. Then it looks like it's
51:33
intentional, but it's it's amazing actually how people have
51:36
very strong feelings about this. I did a talk to just a small
51:40
parish council meeting nearby a few weeks ago and I thought I'll
51:45
wind them up with nuclear power and GMO some real, some real
51:48
controversy to get them going. And actually they were all like
51:50
fine with that. What really wound them up was
51:52
talking about whether the the the verges of the lane should be
51:55
mown or not in, in in May, because you know, that's when
51:59
the flowers are out. That's when the bees are
52:01
pollinating and you know, and people really, really got fiery
52:05
about that, about that issue. So it matters so much to people
52:08
what what happens in in their local area and how much nature
52:10
is allowed to to to return. And again, it's a good example
52:14
of really the need to bring people with you.
52:16
So there was a case in the paper that, you know, hit the news
52:19
last year of AI can't remember what the name of the council is
52:22
in, in the Midlands somewhere that had decided to, you know,
52:25
not mow and kind of rewild part of their park.
52:30
And it was partly for financial reasons.
52:31
They were saving quite a considerable amount of money and
52:34
not mowing and managing. But they didn't really spend
52:37
much time bringing people with them and informing people and
52:40
getting local people on board with that idea.
52:42
And so they just saw this as they've stopped mowing them,
52:47
mowing the grass, and there was quite a lot of opposition.
52:50
Whereas I think if they'd spent a bit of time first explaining
52:54
and talking that through and engaging people, I mean, it's a
52:57
sort of good example of how important that community
52:59
engagement and involvement is in processes of rewilding.
53:04
What's what's next for for Rewilding Britain?
53:07
So we're doing a lot more work again, in this sort of
53:10
normalising rewilding. So storytelling and working with
53:13
advocates, particularly advocates that you might, you
53:17
know, not expect working people from the farming sector, for
53:21
instance, and the forestry sector to have people that are
53:25
willing to sort of stand up and say, look, rewilding does need
53:28
to be part of our, of our future.
53:31
So lots of storytelling and, and fun.
53:33
And again, oceans is a ocean was a really great example of how
53:37
important, particularly visual storytelling is in shifting
53:40
those sort of mindsets. And then a lot we've got more
53:45
people working at a policy level.
53:47
So how do we shift like the recent announcements about
53:50
marine protected areas, how do we get more policies like that?
53:53
And then again, there was a recent announcement about the
53:56
release of Beavers into the wild and then building and growing
54:00
the network of rewilders that are out there.
54:02
So they're innovating and finding new solutions and
54:05
finding their way. And we want those to think that
54:08
those what might be kind of niche innovations to start to
54:11
become part of standard practice.
54:14
And then there's a the sort of glue in the middle is the
54:16
financing and funding. So we're looking at how can we
54:19
bring more financing and and funding into large scale
54:22
rewilding. And you know, in a sense we're
54:25
we're willing as a nation to invest in large scale built
54:29
infrastructure projects like carbon capture and storage or
54:32
HS2 or big hard engineering solutions, But we're not willing
54:35
to, we don't see it in the same way as investing in in nature as
54:40
a part of our critical national infrastructure.
54:42
So we want to shift that so that those flows of funding and
54:45
financing go into and can help kick start that sort of large
54:49
scale land use and marine use change.
54:53
And can people become members or can they donate to some of these
54:56
funds to help restore ecosystems?
54:59
Yeah, I mean absolutely that you can become a supporter of
55:03
Rewilding Britain both in terms of taking actions.
55:07
So 6000 of our supporters made submissions to this land use
55:12
consultation that I talked about.
55:14
And so we want people to to help people to take action to some
55:20
people just receive information and a part of a kind of that
55:23
network. We'd love to see people who want
55:25
to, you know, willing to donate as well.
55:28
And then there's members of of the network.
55:30
And so we want to grow that network, but we're also
55:34
supporting local rewilding networks so that people can get
55:37
involved at whatever level, whether you own land or manage
55:41
land or work on the sea or not is.
55:44
So we don't want it to be exclusive to those that are
55:47
owning and managing in the land and sea, but those that might
55:51
want to get involved in the local park, for instance, or in
55:54
their local rewilding group. Wonderful world, thanks so much
55:57
for joining us. I do wish you all the best.
55:59
I think rewilding something which has, I don't know, it's
56:01
kept me hopeful over the last few years and I think it's the
56:04
same for all of us in the In the Wee Planet network as well.
56:07
It's one of the things that that we are really inspired by and
56:10
really want to work to see more of.
56:12
So thanks Rebecca Wrigley, chief executive of Rewinding Britain,
56:16
for joining us on saving the world from bad ideas.
56:19
Thanks so much for having me. Thanks so much for listening to
56:25
Saving the World from Bad Ideas, a Weplanet podcast.
56:28
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