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Managing Misinformation in the Age of Social Media · The SHEA Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to our multi-part podcast series, Communication in Age of Fake News, brought to you by Society of Healthcare Epidemiology of America, Sheikh, promoting the prevention of healthcare associated infections and antibiotic resistance and seeking to advance the field of healthcare epidemiology and antibiotic stewardship.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: This series will focus on how to gain and maintain public trust while messaging throughout a challenging healthcare crisis, describing the impact of social media on public perception of health information and vaccine uptake, and how to communicate effectively with groups of people whom mainstream communications may not be effective.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Dr.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Wali Javed, hospital epidemiologist at Mount Sinai Hospital downtown, and I'll be your moderator.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Discussion on the podcast does not reflect Shay's perspective but facilitates communication of multiple perspectives and experiences on a topic that is becoming more important than ever.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Shay is excited to launch the second episode of podcast series, which is entitled Managing Misinformation in the Age of Social Media.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Today we are pleased to have Krista Neher, a six-time best-selling author, international speaker, award-winning entrepreneur, global thought leader, and the CEO of Bootcamp Digital.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Krista has written six books on digital marketing, including a textbook and a dummies book.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: With over 15 years digital marketing experience, Krista was a digital marketing pioneer, executive digital strategies before digital marketing was even a recognized term.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: She worked with companies like Facebook, Nike, Proctor Campbell, GE, Macy's, Google, and United States Senate, and has been featured as an expert in New York Times, CNN, Wall Street Journal, NBC, CBS, Entrepreneur, and Associated Press.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Krista is passionate about digital marketing and created one of the first certification programs in the world.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: We are also pleased to have Dr.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Jennifer Spicer, Assistant Professor of Medicine and Divinion and Infectious Disease at Amory University School of Medicine, joining us today.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Prior to her current role, she served as chief resident in internal medicine in Amory, and she also published several pre-reviewed articles and has conducted interviews with publications such as The Washington Post and NBC News.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you both for joining us today.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: We are happy to have you on our podcast.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks for having me join you today, too.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you again for joining us.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: We look forward to the fantastic conversation.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: First, I know our listeners would appreciate hearing your background, especially as it pertains to social media, how you have worked with misinformation and more.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: So can you give our listeners some insight into your worlds?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is Krista.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Hi.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been involved in social media almost since the beginning.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: I actually got started on MySpace.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: So woot-woot, if any of you remember that.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And since then, it's something that I spend a lot of time on, mostly helping professionals to communicate.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: But misinformation is really a big part of that because at the end of the day, everything that we consume is somewhat skewed.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I know we'll dig into the algorithm today, but that's also a big part of misinformation because the algorithm is kind of designed to show you the stuff you like.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I certainly have a lot of background in social media.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And when it comes to misinformation, I think social media does play a role in it, arguably not intentionally, but somewhat in the way it's designed to help people navigate what could be a lot of information.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really excited to talk about how that works and how you can overcome it today.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and this is Jen.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm actually primarily a medical educator by training.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting my master's in medical education currently.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I joined social media, it was primarily as a way for me to learn, but also for me to have a new venue at which to teach.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the nice thing about social media is it really opens up your audience beyond your local institution.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I found it to be a great way to network.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Primarily for my professional life, I use Twitter as my social media platform, although obviously use other platforms like Facebook and Instagram in my personal life.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, the way that I really got involved in teaching over social media was back at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, when healthcare professionals were really struggling to stay up to date on all of the new literature coming out.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so myself and a group of medical students and fellows at Emory University decided to start creating visual abstracts on new practice-changing COVID-19 articles coming out as a way to help educate health professionals understand the new literature and keep up to date when it was really difficult for all of us to be delving into the journals as we were busy taking care of patients.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, obviously, there's been a lot of misinformation during the COVID-19 pandemic.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had a lot of experience dealing with it at that time.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really kind of my time to just learn as I was doing it exactly how to manage dealing with misinformation, with other people responding to posts with things that were inaccurate and figuring out exactly how to deal with it.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now most of my social media use focuses more on medical education.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I also lead the IDSA medical education community of practice Twitter account too.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's really about growing medical educator skills, which is a little bit less prone to having misinformation posted on social media than with my COVID-19 work.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's really fantastic.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, use both navigating or being part of the social media since the beginning and also just using it as a tool to educate.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I've seen it more and more being used.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that's something I'm looking really forward to hearing more about.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, what do you both think is important when healthcare professionals share information through social media?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Should we be considering who are we reaching and what platform to use?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: And how should we think about that?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll start with Krista, if you can share your thoughts.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think when it comes to using social media, the first thing is who's the audience you're trying to reach, right?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if I think from a messaging standpoint, I'm just going to use COVID as an example.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: But if I'm trying to reach people who already believe in vaccinations, I would have a really different message than if my goal is to reach people who don't believe in vaccinations.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or if I'm reaching medical professionals, right?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the starting point should be what's your audience?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then what type of message are they most likely to be receptive to?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's important to sort of frame it in that way because I definitely think sometimes when we have messages that fall into what are considered maybe political areas, especially professionals in that field think really factually about it, right?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: So like if I was a professional, I'd be thinking really about the facts.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: But we need to step back and think who is the message built for?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the way to present the facts to them might be different.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the real first consideration is to focus on your audience.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing that I think is important is to create, you know, at the end of the day, most social networks, the content that works well is similar in the sense that it's easy to digest and easy to understand.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: People who want to be experts are going to click and read these long articles.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: On social media, you want to get the key components across in a quick, easy, and interesting way.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think crafting messages and being able to distill things into simple sound bites, which I know sometimes maybe takes away from the nuance of information, but finding ways to really simplify the message is really important because if you look at scrolling, people just don't spend much time.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: On Facebook, people spend an average of 2.5 seconds with a post on desktop and 1.7 seconds on mobile.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I think especially, obviously, I'm not a physician, right?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a digital marketer.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: But if I would think of physicians, if I think when I talk to my physician, right, they want to tell me all the detail and really get into it, which is great when I'm in a one-on-one conversation.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: But in social, we need to kind of rethink to these bite-side messages that people can quickly absorb and maybe break down things into multiple talking points to break through the noise a little bit.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, one to two seconds, it takes that much time for me to think.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, Jennifer, your thoughts as a physician, when you're using social media to spread information, what do you consider?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that what Krista already mentioned about thinking about the intended audience is really important.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that was something that I started out thinking about how I would spread information about COVID-19 to both healthcare professionals, including students and trainees.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: But what I hadn't spent much time thinking about was my unintended audience, who would also be seeing the message.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is something that happens on social media that most of us aren't as used to.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're used to going to a medical conference and speaking to our colleagues and people within our field.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the way we have to change a message for a different audience is, as Krista mentioned, very different, right?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so whenever we're speaking on a social media platform, we're actually reaching multiple audiences at once.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And to be mindful of what we put on social media and how it could be misinterpreted by others, I think is really important for us as a profession.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that was something that, especially when early articles were coming out looking at different therapeutics that we didn't know whether or not they worked for COVID-19, I quickly realized that we needed to be careful how we framed content for health professionals because other people were reading the content too.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so thinking about the unintended audience and how your post may look to them is an important thing to consider.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think the second thing for me is what I use different platforms for.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: So as I mentioned, I am on Twitter primarily in a professional capacity, but I'm also on Facebook and Instagram in a more personal capacity.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so the messages that I spread on those platforms, but also the conversations I engage in are very different and are more personal one-on-one conversations.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I've had to think about, you know, what do I and don't I want to share on Twitter where I'm really trying to keep up more of a professional appearance and to be a little careful thinking about what my mission is on that platform and what my message is.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So those are two things that I think about the intended and unintended audience and how things may be interpreted, and then matching the platform I'm using with my own personal intent.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Very, very good.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: So on the same line, like if I have to deliver a message on social media, when should we deliver our message on social media and why is this important?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: One would be the best time for me to send some message out or send my first tweet out.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, Dr.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Weiser, can you comment first?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: So this isn't my field of expertise.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm actually very interested to hear what Krista says.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I think in my own personal experience, what I've tried to remember is social media feeds get updated constantly.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So your message can very easily get buried.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So what's important to remember is that, you know, just putting something out there once isn't enough.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really important to re-amplify messages or put the same message out more than once and at different times of the day and at different times of the week.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I remember reading, if you're trying to reach medical professionals or other health professionals, there have been some articles showing that there may be certain times that people within our profession are more likely to be on social media.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember one article that was saying about one to three PM Eastern Standard Time was a time that there would be a large volume of people within our profession looking at social media.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: But instead of following those really specific guidelines, I try to think about when am I looking at social media?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: When do I have time in the day?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's probably when my same audience has time if I'm trying to reach other health professionals.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, I also think about when do I have time to post?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the best time to post is probably when you have time to post, because most of us as health professionals aren't necessarily using scheduling social media software.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if social media is a big part of your role, then that would be something to consider and look a little bit more deeply into the analyses of your own tweets or your own social media posts and see when you get the most uptake.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, I try to post when I have time and when my prior experience has shown that I receive a larger audience for my tweets.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: So just to build on that, it's interesting because if you Google it, there's like a thousand studies that say best time to post.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And usually, funny enough, it's one to three p.m.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: on Wednesdays.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: But that's just because that matches like an American time zone across the country, sort of.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And this was a relevant topic like 10 years ago when people weren't on social media literally every hour they are awake through their mobile phones.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Today, people are online constantly.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it just post when people are awake, right?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: So don't post at 2 a.m.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime like in the day when people are awake, we'll be fine.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: If there's context that's relevant.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: So like if I was trying to reach moms, I would probably think 8 p.m.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: after the kids are asleep, is if it's a sort of casual message, right?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you can think about things that realistically make sense within the scope of the day.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, the algorithms take into account recency, meaning if you post something and no one interacts with it for a while, they think, eh, no one likes this.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: But again, people are online kind of all day.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not really the most important part anymore.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: The most important part is that you're posting stuff people even care about.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so as long as you post when people are awake, I would say don't even worry about it.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: One to three p.m.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: on Wednesdays.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll remember.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think I got a good idea from both of you guys as to just post at a reasonable time, not at 2 a.m., but also post when it's relevant, right?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: When the information from CVC comes out that's relevant.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And if there is anything that we have to communicate out, I think that's important.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, very interesting how how we are evolving our communication overall with these new tools that we have.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we all know social media has very complex and sophisticated algorithms.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, Krista, given your background, can you share with us how these algorithms work and how they affect the spread of misinformation?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if you step back, every social network runs off of an algorithm because you could potentially see an average person on Facebook could be exposed to over 2,000 updates a day.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the idea behind an algorithm is to say, well, it's not just helpful to show you stuff in terms of recency.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's use an algorithm to get you the stuff you're most likely to be interested in.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why you see on social media, you see a lot of posts from certain people and no posts from other people.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the social media algorithms for almost every social network are based on the same three key components.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing that they look at is your relationship to the person or entity posting.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say I'm connected to Jen, and every time she posts something, I tend to like it or interact with it.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe on Facebook we're tagged in pictures together.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Facebook even knows if we're in the same location because Facebook tracks our phones.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: So all of these signals can tell them, ooh, Krista seems highly interested in Jen.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be reciprocated, right?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I could see all her posts and she could see none of mine.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: But they look at my interactions with her and say, ooh, you're really interested in this person in general.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that boosts her in the news feed.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: What this means is that if you post a bunch of boring stuff and then you have something that's great, it's much harder for that great thing to break through because it's almost like a snowball or an exponential impact, right?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's your relationship to the person making the post.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is the post itself, something that's getting a lot of engagements and interactions, or even dwell time, which means people just pause and look at it, that automatically gives you a boost as well.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the post itself is the second factor.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: So there could be someone or a page or something you rarely see.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then you'll notice you see big announcement posts, right?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Weddings, birthdays, babies.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's because those posts get a ton of engagement.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that expands the reach of those.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: So a post getting a lot of engagement will expand the reach of that person.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third factor is recency.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: All of the networks prefer more recent content versus older content.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And recency depends on each network.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Twitter, the speed of the feed is more quick, but essentially, usually you won't see anything beyond five to seven days, which links back to the point Jen made earlier about it's okay to repost the same message and reframe it because most people aren't going to see everything.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And after a few days, your message is essentially dead.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the real components of the social media algorithms.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Those are really, really good points.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: So as a follow-up for a person like me, is there anything we can do to avoid algorithm traps?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the most important thing with the algorithm is to post stuff people are interested in.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really is that simple.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people like to complicate it, but all it comes down to is posting stuff people like consistently.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that's important is to post regularly.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes people post infrequently.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: So every now and again when something strikes them.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's hard to build up an audience or for people to know what to expect from you.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: So post regularly, but also make sure your posts are good.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So good content reads exposure, is the easy way to think about it.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the more good stuff people are interested in you post, the better exposure you get for everything you post.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, really, in terms of what are people interested in, you know, we can talk a lot more about optimization and things like that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: But what it really comes down to is messages that resonate with people and match the things that they're looking for.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And if you post that kind of content consistently, you will automatically rise to the top of algorithms.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I always think about is instead of focusing on beating an algorithm, focus on delivering value.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that is hands down the single way you will beat the algorithm every single time.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's really, really good.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think another issue that all of us face is some misleading social media postings.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: Some of them are well designed to sound believable to journal public.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: How do we respond to these posts in a way that provides valid information while not overwhelming people with data?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Spicer, I'll ask you this question first.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Then you comment on how you have handled this previously.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think whenever I see true misinformation on social media, I do try to report it if it is within my area of expertise.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, this has come up a lot for those of us in the infectious disease field with COVID-19.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to report that information.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is, you know, that's not always going to get posts taken down.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I see misinformation that I know I'm not going to be able to get the post taken down, I think the most important thing is how I interact with people depends on who they are and where I've seen the information.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we all know that on social media, there are people whose job is just to spread misinformation.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: There are bots and trolls and, you know, there's endless misinformation out there.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so when it's a completely random person's post, I don't always try to engage with that because that's not going to be beneficial and won't necessarily have an impact.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: So the way that I handle it is if I'm on my personal social media account.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: So again, like Facebook, and I have friends, family, other people that I know who post something that is inaccurate, I engage with them in a very polite and professional way to just correct the information.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I don't go on a long rant.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a really short correction.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I try to reread it carefully because tone is lost over any digital medium.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so recognizing that I don't want to offend people, I'm just trying to correct something that is an inaccuracy.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'll try to do with people who I know personally.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: So they also know me, they know my intent.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that's a good way to get past the issue with tone.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when it's somebody who posts on my posts, I think that that's a little bit different.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I try to read the person's intent when they do that.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: So some ways I do that is first I look at who is the person who posted misinformation on my own posts.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I try to see, you know, are they posting things about COVID 19 everywhere and about misinformation on that?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or do they not believe in vaccines and they're posting that on their own newsfeed?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: If so, I know that engaging with them is.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not going to lead to any type of positive outcome.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I just mute them from the thread, block them, or disengage and don't respond.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: However, if I see that it's somebody who, you know, is trying to ask me a legitimate question or maybe respond to with something that's not completely accurate, I follow the same rules as with someone I know.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I do a very gentle, polite, professional short correction with facts.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then if they start repeatedly engaging back and forth in a way that I can see is not going to be productive, then I just stop the conversation because it's just not really worth my time to continue to engage with that.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I just try to instead, for my own sanity, just, you know, continue to promote my own message, do it in a professional manner, and just try to ignore things that aren't going to lead to a productive conversation.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's no magic recipe here, but I think that having a thick skin and just recognizing sometimes that you can't change everybody's mind, and that's okay.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: We all have different feelings and opinions and being a little careful with how you engage.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's such a wonderful message.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Dr.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Pfeiser.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: And Pista, what insights can you provide on this?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so interesting.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe I'm going to spread misinformation, but there's some study, again, I'm like misinformation because I can't quote it, but I'm pretty sure it's true.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: That says that, like, actually, if someone's mind is made up on something, like showering them with data doesn't really help, right?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So you gotta, I think, a little bit consider your audience in general, which I think is what Jen was saying, is like the people who are really just out there to get in arguments and whatnot, it really is a true waste of your energy, regardless of whether the sky is blue, orange, or purple, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're thinking though, about okay, that's not part of your addressable audience, anyways, right?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to avoid the people who are very strongly entrenched in disagreeing with you because it's just not productive.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Then you think about, okay, well, what does the rest of the world look like?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: And how do I best position myself and my commentary for them to see the value that I can add to the conversation?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And as I think about that, to me, what comes to mind is first of all, share your credentials on this.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that I think a lot of people realize is that there's a lot of voices and not a lot of educated voices.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so share your credentials so people actually know you're coming from a place of information.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is stick to the facts as much as possible.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you get into too many, you know, more like, well, this is ridiculous, right?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: That type of commentary is usually counterproductive.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: So if you just stick to the facts and information, that's gonna get your point across in a more neutral tone.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third thing is linked to resources.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: If we've learned anything, it's that everyone believes that 10 minutes of Google is more valid than whatever degree you might hold.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: So make their job easier then, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Give them access to the information that verifies it.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because what I see a ton of with misinformation, you know, I think people are acutely aware of it, even the spreaders, right?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: They just happen to think their information is more right.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: But what you see more and more is people saying, well, where's the link to that?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: What's the credible source behind this?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Whether they agree or disagree with the person.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I've seen posts more political in nature recently that were dramatic.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: To me, it didn't sound true.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: But what I saw in the comments was people who I know are on both sides saying, well, where's the source?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because the people who agree want to be able to spread it more and they don't want to look dumb.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: The people who disagree are thinking this can't be true.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if you kind of use those three components to your success, share your credentials, keep it neutral and stick to information, and then share the source.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that gives you the best probability of sort of being taken seriously as an expert or somebody with, you know, a unique point of view to offer on a given topic.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's such an important message that you're sharing that also can provide some degree of references so people can go back to look at it if they want to.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's so important.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think during this pandemic, we've all learned that some people are on one side or the other, but I think keeping ourselves in the side of science as we would like to kind of will help us.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: So kind of giving our references will be really, really helpful with that good advice.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, Krisa, you just mentioned politicized messaging.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: How do healthcare professionals avoid mixing scientific and political messaging and the appearance of politics and messaging then using social media?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, who would have thought science is political and like doctors in healthcare is political?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, 10 years ago that would sound nuts.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: But the truth of the matter is that it just is, right?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think to some extent, you're gonna have to realize that it is unavoidable and people associate those two things together.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's okay.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, you see people saying things like not a political post.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about you, but I would weather a guess that it doesn't really matter what you say next.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: That just actually means it's a political post, right?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Even though probably if I think of it from a healthcare professional, it literally is it, you know.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: But the point that I'm trying to make really is that maybe we just have to accept that this has become a politicized issue.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: We could discuss and debate five days till Sunday, whether it's a good thing, bad thing, what do you do about it?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: But you can't really control a narrative that exists at this point, right?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's also not unique to the United States.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm based in Europe at the moment, and there's politics around this kind of stuff too, wearing masks, all of this stuff.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's considered somewhat political, not to the extent as in the US.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I think to be honest, like I think you don't want to make it about politics.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to associate it in that way.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you need to have awareness that it is viewed as political and take that into account in the way that you choose to position things and what you talk about.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, even if you said, well, I'm associated with this party, but I believe blah, blah, blah.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think it doesn't add anything to it, right?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: So at the end of the day, my advice on that area would be that it has become political.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you need to make it political, but I think you need to expect that.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you need to expect comments and discussion that are political in nature.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can try and neutralize those as much as possible, but at the end of the day, it's probably going to be a reality of the way the discussion plays out.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd be curious, Jen's experience in this.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I think my advice would be recognize that it's viewed as political.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then, one, you're mentally prepared for it too.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: You maybe have some responses prepared for that.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then three, try to be as neutral as possible.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you're not going to be able to talk about these issues in a way that's not perceived as political by most of the people reading it.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: So, Jen, your thoughts.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: I completely agree.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think medicine is political in a way.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, although we are grounded in science and fact, we know that there's also advocacy that goes into being a health professional.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that is ultimately political.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think, again, as Krista was saying, grounding everything in fact and in what we are trying to do as health professionals and in our beliefs based on our credentials is the best thing that we can do.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And just recognize that it is going to be seen as political sometimes.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: We just have to be prepared to respond to that and to try to stay as nonpartisan as possible and really follow the science and the facts and advocate for those things.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess for a Twitter knows like myself, I'm gonna tell you what I'm thinking, hearing you guys is that I should post often.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: I should post at times that people will read it, but also if people are disagreeing and there's more political tones to that, I should probably tend to ignore that and move on.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: But this is really powerful and probably am not capturing everything, but I'm learning a lot.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, given the healthcare professionals are seen as trusted community leaders, how should we manage responses to public messages on social media?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: Spicer, what have you personally done in these situations?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think what Krista mentioned earlier here is really important.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Then when we are responding or amplifying public messages with the goal of amplifying facts and advocating for health policy or health outcomes, mentioning our credentials is a critical piece of that.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that is one thing that we can do is make sure that our credentials, when we are speaking in a professional manner on social media, are there in our Twitter handle or with our name and that we mention that when we're responding.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that it's really important to remain polite and professional.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I always avoid writing when I'm emotional about something.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: I avoid writing everything.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: I avoid writing emails when I'm emotional.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I may write it and then, you know, save it as a draft, but you got to be careful that you don't accidentally send that.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the same thing goes with social media.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes I may draft something in a Word document and save it away and then decide later how I feel about it.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I try to avoid writing when I'm emotional about something on social media because I think that is when we have more of a tendency to say disparaging remarks, which is not appropriate if we are on social media in a professional manner.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that is also going to make people less likely to listen to our messages.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to stay fact-based, I try to mention my credentials, and I try to avoid being disparaging or writing when I feel a lot of emotion about something.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna build on what Jen said.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, she really hit the nail on the head about responding to negativity.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: But if I can take a totally different approach, I would say expend more or equal efforts amplifying positivity.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think we spend so much emotional energy when someone says something we don't agree with and arguing, right?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you don't argue, they annoy you, right?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's emotional energy.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: But like step back for a second and spend 10,000 times more energy liking and resharing stuff that promotes the point of views you agree with.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Someone who leaves the productive positive comment, cheerlead them.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, thank you so much for taking the time because this was helpful to me.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like their stuff, you know, something I did.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, because of the nature of what I do, I steer so clear of anything political, which again, medicine is no political, right?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't post on any of this stuff.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: But one of my friends was posting what I would consider probably medical misinformation.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And this woman responded and she was like, I'm a physician and it was really well written.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't want to even like it because I just I tried and stay away.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: I sent her a private message and I just said, I just, I don't even know you, but I wanted to say, I appreciate that you took the time to do this and it's making a difference to me.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciated it.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So there's so many ways, regardless of how you want to get like, I don't want to get involved in any way.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I still was able to make a point to cheerlead someone who I think is spreading important messages.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something that none of us do enough of is liking and amplifying other people with those points of view.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say, you know, these people who want to argue, give them as little of your energy as possible because the probability you change their minds is low.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would say in the last year, you know, I can count on one hand the people who have actually said, I didn't realize that information you shared.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I'm rethinking this.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just not the best use of your energy.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I think a lot of people who are fighting the good fight feel maybe unsupported or insecure.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the more you can help them by sharing their messages, so maybe you don't feel so confident posting about this stuff because you're afraid of how your friends would react or what you might get.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Share a post from somebody else that's sharing something great, like their stuff, comment on their stuff, like the people who are commenting in a way that supports the data that you believe is important.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think all of that stuff can really make a difference over time.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's such a great information, just to utilize the energies for the positivity and just focus on that.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that might be because of the time constraints all the healthcare providers have.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think that might be the best strategy for us to maximally use the social media.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you both have given great information to our listeners today.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: And as we wrap up, what final pieces of advice can you provide our listeners?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Krista, we will start with you.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think at the end of the day, you know, we all have a powerful gift, which is the voice that we're given.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And social media allows us to really amplify that.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, the title of this is The Age of Misinformation.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And misinformation is rampant.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this is just on a personal level, I feel like we all have a piece to play in helping to get the right information in front of people and helping them to see, because the truth of the matter is we're inundated with information from all sorts of places.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Some of it is valid and some of it is not.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the way the algorithms work is if something seems popular, you know, it's more likely to be seen by more people.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so, to the extent that you can use the voice you have to share information that's helpful with other people, I think it's a good opportunity to do that and then to also support the other people doing the same thing.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I would really say when it comes to misinformation, you know, it's a tricky and difficult subject.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: We could probably talk about all sorts of aspects of this for far, far longer than this podcast is.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: But if you just step back from the emotion we sometimes probably feel around it all, what can we productively do to combat that?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's use our platforms and our voices and promote the other people doing the same.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And over time, that's the thing that is really most likely to have the biggest impact.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Spicer, what would you like to share?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I really loved Krista's message about focusing on the positive in social media rather than the negative.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this has been something really hard for us as health professionals recently, as we've been going through everything with the COVID-19 pandemic over the past year and a half.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know many people who got burnt out on social media and got off of social media during this time because of that.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think, again, focusing on those positive aspects and amplifying positive messages instead of focusing on dealing with the negative things is something that we can all take away from this.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think the second thing is what we've learned recently a lot with vaccines is that people are much more likely to respond to messages that are coming from someone they personally know rather than kind of amplified messages over social media.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so for us, if we're thinking about our own positions for health advocacy and how can we make a difference, I really think that this is where we may want to take our personal networks and think a little bit more critically about how we engage in those.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I know for myself, instead of talking a lot about vaccines on my professional social media account, where most people following me agree with me on a lot of this stuff, I'm gonna have less impact promoting messages there, although it still can help.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: I have actually taken more to Facebook and again engaging with people who I personally know in a way to offer myself up as somebody who's happy to answer questions if they have them, not telling them they're wrong about things, but just engaging in conversations with people who seem like they're open to conversations about it.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think as health professionals, that is one of the ways that we can have a tremendous impact right now, is more on the personal one-on-one level with people that we already have a relationship with.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's really, really, really great.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you, Krista and Dr.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: Spicer, for such a great conversation.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was a pleasure having you both on the podcast.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again for having me today.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed coming and talking about social media.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks so much.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: As a reminder, this is episode two in the three-part series.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: Be on the lookout for our remaining episode, communicating with minorities and underrepresented groups, which will launch in upcoming weeks.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: You can find more educational content like this podcast on Shay's Online Education Center, Learning CE, at www.learningce.sha-online.org.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: This concludes episode two of the communication in the age of fake news series.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for tuning in.