Latest / The Layback Podcast / Dylan Newcomer, Athletic Potential PT / Driveline Baseball

Transcript

Dylan Newcomer, Athletic Potential PT / Driveline Baseball · The Layback Podcast

• 0:00
  What's up everyone, Welcome back to the lay Back podcast Joining
• 0:03
  us today is recurring guest Dylan newcomer.
• 0:07
  As you guys probably know at this point, we work very closely
• 0:10
  with Dylan and what he does with his athletes at Driveline in the
• 0:14
  physical therapy program there, as well as his personal group
• 0:18
  with athletic potential PT Dylan has also become quite the force
• 0:22
  on social media lately. I, I'm remembering what seems
• 0:26
  like maybe your first viral video when you asked the world
• 0:30
  what the whole purpose of impulses were.
• 0:33
  And now we've come, I was about to say full circle, but full
• 0:37
  circle's the wrong phrase there because that would mean we're
• 0:39
  right back to the beginning. I feel like we've made a 180
• 0:42
  where we now we're widely accepting impulses as a part of
• 0:45
  rehab programs and even programming them for guys pretty
• 0:49
  regularly. But that's not why we're on
• 0:52
  today. Dylan, the part of the reason I
• 0:53
  brought you back is way back on episode 2 or 3, whatever it was
• 0:57
  when you so graciously joined us and we went over the bio of how
• 1:02
  you got to this point in life. There is so much more that we
• 1:04
  could have discussed beyond just who is Dylan newcomer and why is
• 1:08
  he doing what he's doing. Now we have an opportunity to,
• 1:11
  as I said via text, address the State of the Union.
• 1:15
  And that's what I want to do today, talk about our current
• 1:19
  state in the baseball, rehab and performance world.
• 1:22
  And I don't think there's anyone better poised to do that than
• 1:25
  you. So thanks again for coming on.
• 1:27
  Looking forward to the chat. Yeah.
• 1:29
  Thanks for having. Me, of course.
• 1:30
  So I guess we can get right into it.
• 1:33
  I, I don't know how this is going to play out timing wise,
• 1:35
  but it means that we skipped the bio.
• 1:38
  There goes like the 1st 10 minutes of content.
• 1:40
  So is there anything new that's happened over the last two years
• 1:44
  that we need to add to the bio or the resume at this point?
• 1:48
  No, you know, I mean, we've been consistently hammering away at
• 1:51
  improving the rehab process of Driveline.
• 1:53
  You recently had my my new partner, Jason Motafari, who now
• 1:58
  runs the Driveline Florida location.
• 2:00
  You know, beyond that, we're we're continuing to cruise and
• 2:02
  and in the future we're looking to expand into Driveline Arizona
• 2:05
  as well and get the rehab set up there.
• 2:08
  So if there's any listeners that is in the Arizona area and wants
• 2:11
  to chat that that may be a useful Ave. for some networking
• 2:14
  for me. I'll take it.
• 2:15
  That's pretty solid. I, I'm glad you disclosed
• 2:19
  upfront that we have as long as we are able to speak today,
• 2:24
  we'll, we'll still try to keep this pretty concise to our
• 2:27
  normal hour ish podcast time. Hey, you said it, you have
• 2:32
  nothing else on the docket. So if if we're 2 1/2 hours into
• 2:35
  this and we're still humming, I guess that's just what our
• 2:39
  listeners are going to have to stick with.
• 2:40
  But Dylan, right before we pressed record, you and I were
• 2:44
  kind of debriefing on a call that I had with an athlete, a
• 2:46
  call what you had with the university going over their
• 2:50
  rehab programs or the way they structure rehab.
• 2:53
  So I'm happy to push this over to you for maybe your kind of
• 2:58
  monologue to kick things off. And I'm I'm happy to offer my
• 3:02
  take as well. Hopefully you don't steal my
• 3:04
  Thunder and what I just shared to you before we press record
• 3:07
  because I do feel pretty, pretty confident in that phrase.
• 3:10
  But it go ahead, kick us off with your State of the Union
• 3:13
  monologue, if you don't mind. Yeah.
• 3:15
  I mean, I think we were talking about before is, is that the
• 3:19
  state of baseball rehab and just baseball in general has just
• 3:23
  evolved so significantly to the point where everyone is now
• 3:27
  trying to play catch up. It's like, and then, you know,
• 3:29
  you gave me a stat and I'll let you save the stat because I
• 3:31
  don't remember, but you know, high schoolers are throwing 95
• 3:35
  now everyone is trying to chase 90 plus miles an hour if you're
• 3:38
  trying to play at any kind of a higher level.
• 3:41
  And that capacity is being achieved earlier and earlier for
• 3:45
  for guys, which has created this incredibly disastrous problem
• 3:50
  for baseball rehab where we are seeing so many injuries
• 3:54
  skyrocket, but our rehab programs take forever to update.
• 3:58
  So now everyone's kind of in this scramble of like how do we
• 4:01
  get athletes A to try not to get injured?
• 4:05
  So we need to update our protocols for arm care and what
• 4:09
  we do to try to keep guys healthy and not getting injured.
• 4:11
  But if they do get injured, if they do have surgery, now it's
• 4:15
  about what do we actually need to do to update these rehab
• 4:18
  protocols to fully prepare these guys for the demands that the
• 4:22
  sport is forcing upon them. It's not like we're dealing with
• 4:24
  these one off athletes who are just like crazy.
• 4:27
  It's, it's every athlete that plays at any kind of a higher
• 4:30
  level that we have to start prepping for incredible demands
• 4:34
  that 10 years ago just really wasn't as common.
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  And so now it's time for the rehab protocols to continue to
• 4:41
  get updated and push forward and more and more people are coming
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  to that light. A few years ago, like talk about
• 4:46
  in social media, it was just people kind of spamming these
• 4:50
  exercises that everyone was saying this is going to cause
• 4:53
  Tommy John itself just doing the exercise.
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  And now everyone's starting to kind of slowly piece through the
• 4:59
  the puzzle of, you know, OK, there is application for these
• 5:02
  higher intensity stimuli that we can start to borrow and build
• 5:06
  progressions and regressions on. So that way we do actually
• 5:09
  prepare athletes for these high force demands.
• 5:12
  Yeah, as the younger population would say, now guys are injury
• 5:17
  maxing in their training programs.
• 5:19
  I'm trying to stay up with the trends.
• 5:21
  I I saw a couple of those posts recently.
• 5:23
  But I I do remember that on some of your posts of doing heavy
• 5:27
  loaded IR and ER work and guys are saying like Driveline is
• 5:31
  back trying to speed run UCL tears so they can get more
• 5:34
  business. Like you kidding me?
• 5:35
  No, like if the elbow experiences over 100 Newton
• 5:40
  meters of torque while you're throwing a pitch, that's insane.
• 5:43
  You have to try to build up a stimulus to that somehow.
• 5:46
  Of course. Like that's why we do Flex Pro
• 5:48
  Grip work, but Flex Pro Grip is a very contained movement.
• 5:53
  It's not, it's not going to be a fast rapid movement, rapid
• 5:56
  loading. At some point we do need to
• 5:58
  bridge the gap to the field and that's where those exercises
• 6:01
  come into play. But I'm glad you left my Thunder
• 6:05
  out there so I can actually kind of share it.
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  As I shared with you first, when we were about to record, I
• 6:12
  talked about how over the past two years, it seems like there's
• 6:17
  been some sort of illumination in the baseball world that
• 6:21
  things need to change. It's not necessarily that, as
• 6:25
  you said, not that we're necessarily doing things wrong,
• 6:28
  but we're leaving things on the table and what we're doing is
• 6:32
  outdated and it needs a shift given the fact that high school
• 6:36
  kids are throwing 95 miles an hour at least.
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  The top tier guys are then the stat that I shared with you,
• 6:42
  which I've seen go crazy on Twitter and Instagram recently,
• 6:46
  is now that the stock fastball in right-handed Major League
• 6:52
  pitchers or right-handed Major League starters.
• 6:55
  So as stock as stock can be is a 95.2 mile an hour heater.
• 7:01
  That's bonkers. Go back and tell, tell your
• 7:05
  whatever 16 year old self that hey, the only chance that you're
• 7:09
  going to have to play Major League Baseball as a starting
• 7:13
  pitcher as the average picture this is around 95.2 miles an
• 7:18
  hour. That's bonkers.
• 7:20
  That means the demands of the sport, as you were saying, or
• 7:23
  the demands of rehab now are higher than they've ever been.
• 7:28
  We, we need to look at what we are doing, look at the systems
• 7:33
  that we are creating and actually figure out how we can
• 7:36
  make a change. So now, Dylan, this is where the
• 7:38
  question comes in. I'd love if you could address
• 7:41
  where are you seeing systems begin to change?
• 7:45
  Yeah. I mean, first it starts off, I
• 7:47
  think it kind of always works private sector to more of like
• 7:50
  the institutionalized sector. You know, you'll have coaches
• 7:55
  that are independent that are trying new things, posting new
• 7:57
  things and it starts to catch wind.
• 7:59
  And that's kind of what we've been talking about the last
• 8:00
  couple years. It's this illumination of like a
• 8:03
  strength and conditioning really blending into rehab and that
• 8:06
  high performance kind of bridge. And now I'm starting to see more
• 8:09
  colleges, more groups, if you will, like rehab and, and, and
• 8:14
  orthopedic groups are starting to look at how they can update
• 8:17
  their protocols and what they can learn from the, from the
• 8:20
  strength and conditioning side. And it's, it's really that the
• 8:23
  standard approach of care was the the rehab side up to a
• 8:28
  certain point. And then there was the high
• 8:30
  performance side and there was this giant Gray area in the
• 8:33
  middle that really I think is kind of the rehab providers new
• 8:36
  responsibility that's evolved, but not all the protocols are
• 8:40
  there yet. So that's really kind of what
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  we're seeing is institutions and people who put out these kind of
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  protocols are starting to update and try to fill that Gray area
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  that's developed as a result of like there's such a high demand.
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  But the rehab protocols only got you to a certain point.
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  And there's a space in the middle that we've had to figure
• 8:58
  out how to blend over the last couple years.
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  So where do you think the farther reach is?
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  Do you think PT is becoming more aggressive or more broad
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  spectrum or is it strength coaches and high performance
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  coaches are having a greater, I guess greater appreciation for
• 9:19
  the skill acquisition piece? Or is it not even just in either
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  or it's just everyone is realizing how intertwined this
• 9:26
  whole system is? Yeah, I think, I think there's a
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  couple good answers to that question.
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  And I think some of it is like location and just background
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  dependent, right. Like if you're APT, that is more
• 9:40
  in the traditional clinical sense where you're relying on
• 9:43
  insurance based sessions, you're going to have to lean on like
• 9:46
  your high performance coaches more because your athlete is
• 9:49
  going to get cleared and discharged from PT early on.
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  The rising popularity of kind of the cash based or just like
• 9:57
  private sector model of PT where they can operate both as
• 10:02
  strength coach or as pitching coach and as rehab provider and
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  kind of do the full spectrum. I think you're seeing just this
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  nice blend of PTS that have that background are blending in the
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  direction of the strength coach. And some of the strength
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  coaches, Anthony Castrio is a good example of this, are
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  starting to blend downwards a little bit towards the rehab
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  side. But you know, they're they're
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  doing a good job of setting their kind of line of
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  demarcation where they're not going to crossover.
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  And then you know, you've got the full spectrum people as
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  well. And you know, I would categorize
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  myself as someone that's more on the full spectrum just because I
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  have the luxury of being inside driveline and working with
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  someone from day one all the way until they go back to spring
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  training. As you said, the strength
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  coaches or their performance coaches that are putting the
• 10:45
  line in the sand and to be fair probably is a line in the sand.
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  Granted some might be doing it in permanent ink, but I know
• 10:52
  Cassiola's cut off is he is he markets himself as a return to
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  throw coach, which is great. So you know exactly what you're
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  getting. Now, the reason I say line in
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  the sand is maybe that's something that even I fall into
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  like with with Flexpro grip, like yes, we're providing
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  Flexpro grip, but I'm also CSESII was a pitching coach
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  collegiately. I also coached infielders
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  collegiately. So I've I have coached, I've
• 11:21
  trained athletes. I work specifically now with the
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  forearm, but I can go well beyond writing a Flexpro grip
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  program for a guy if someone really wants it.
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  So to me, for me, it's a line in the sand.
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  For someone else, that might be something written, Nick.
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  But what that requires is I think not just the clinicians on
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  your side or the coaches or support staff.
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  I like what I fit into to not only not only have a better idea
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  of what they do know or like a greater, I guess a greater
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  requirement for baseline knowledge.
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  There's also much more of a necessity for people, especially
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  in my shoes or Cass's shoes or anyone else on our side or I
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  guess even yours, to admit what they don't know.
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  And I think that's probably been a breakthrough kind of calling
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  back to how this conversation started, a breakthrough that
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  we've seen in the industry of late where people are more
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  commonly saying, are we really so sure about this?
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  Or like, I don't know, we should probably look elsewhere.
• 12:32
  Yeah, yeah. We're really having to lean into
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  a more multidisciplinary approach with all of this just
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  because we do see that athletes that go through the standard
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  rehab process, I mean, you've encountered this I'm sure tons
• 12:47
  of times. I know Cass has and many people
• 12:49
  that kind of are in this space have, they'll go and take the
• 12:52
  standard rehab protocol to a regular generic PT.
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  And when I say generic PT, it's not like a negative term.
• 12:58
  It's just somebody who hasn't specialized in baseball and
• 13:01
  unfortunately for the standard population, baseball is becoming
• 13:05
  so niche of a rehab specialty with these injury types that
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  going to your generic PT will potentially put you at like risk
• 13:15
  of having a really poor outcome when you start your return to
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  throw. Just this week I had another,
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  you know, athlete come through where they they did the full
• 13:22
  protocol technically, but they're just nowhere near ready
• 13:25
  to start throwing. We did our objective testing,
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  which wasn't done elsewhere because it's not part of the
• 13:30
  protocol. That's another thing that I
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  think the industry is starting to wrap their head around is
• 13:33
  objective testing and what that means to clear somebody to
• 13:37
  throw. But you know, they they were
• 13:38
  nowhere near ready that the rehab side wasn't even close to
• 13:42
  the non rehab side at that point.
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  But they had the range, they had their basics done, they did
• 13:46
  their band work and they kind of stopped at the throwers 10 and
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  there wasn't much going on beyond that.
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  You know, that's kind of the the ground is that it's becoming so
• 13:56
  niche that we we need to be relying on like a
• 13:59
  multidisciplinary approach of if you are going to a generic PT,
• 14:02
  you need somebody on the baseball side that's a good
• 14:04
  performance coach that can help you blend that.
• 14:06
  Or if you're going to a rehab provider that specializes in
• 14:09
  baseball, they may not still have the throwing skill on the
• 14:12
  back end. So you should probably have
• 14:14
  somebody ready to pick up in the return to throw and make sure
• 14:16
  that mechanically you're sound as well.
• 14:19
  I even want to take this a step further though beyond the
• 14:22
  generic PT as you phrased it to the more sports specific.
• 14:26
  The baseball specific. For instance, there is a pro
• 14:31
  pitcher that we did our onboarding with in the past
• 14:34
  week, lifetime peak Velos in the upper 90s.
• 14:38
  I know this will mean something to you because you're very
• 14:41
  familiar with Flexpro grip. For the listeners out there
• 14:43
  familiar with Flexpro grip, this will make a ton of sense.
• 14:46
  For those who aren't, I encourage you to reach out and
• 14:48
  I'm happy to explain it more, but this is an athlete with a
• 14:51
  lifetime peak in the upper 90s. He's late stage rehab, he's
• 14:56
  about to enter a mound phase. He's been cleared to get up to
• 15:01
  about 83 to 86 mph in his return to throw, and he is about nine
• 15:08
  months removed from his surgery date.
• 15:11
  But like everything, according to a timeline, very late stage
• 15:16
  rehab, when we test him on Flex Pro Grip, we're looking at
• 15:19
  fingertip flexions around 140, midfinger flexion between 100
• 15:24
  and 110. And then we look at his two
• 15:27
  finger numbers. So we start to look at his RFD
• 15:29
  and he's producing force slowly. And Dylan, I know you, you can
• 15:34
  already picture the chart in your head.
• 15:35
  That means he's scoring on our system as a scored velocity
• 15:40
  ceiling in the low 70s. Does that mean the next throw
• 15:44
  that he makes above 73 mph and his return to throw is going to
• 15:48
  be the throw that ends at all and he has to restart from the
• 15:50
  beginning? No, not necessarily.
• 15:52
  But this is a guy that is working and doing his rehab in a
• 15:57
  professional organization. He's probably been tested on
• 16:01
  force plates every single week of his return to throw or every
• 16:05
  single week of his rehab as whole, even prior to the return
• 16:09
  to throw. He's probably doing Nord board
• 16:11
  stuff for his hamstrings, and he's probably doing traditional
• 16:14
  hand grip dynamometry and shoulder dynamometry.
• 16:17
  But there are still missing links.
• 16:19
  So it's not like I'm trying to use this Dylan, for you to now
• 16:23
  call out like why Flexpro grip is the number one thing.
• 16:26
  But where do you think even the specific rehab professionals are
• 16:32
  missing a link or missing something?
• 16:34
  Like where? Where are we still seeing
• 16:36
  athletes slip through the cracks even for for the baseball
• 16:40
  specific rehab professionals? I mean, this could be a soapbox,
• 16:43
  but I'll try to keep it PG. You can soapbox.
• 16:47
  Yeah, I, you know, I don't want to be disrespectful in any way
• 16:50
  to people. People are always doing their
• 16:53
  best that they currently feel is for the athlete in front.
• 16:58
  And so when it comes to saying I'm a baseball specific rehab
• 17:01
  provider that can also still just have a lot of wide
• 17:04
  variability kind of almost based off of what camp you fall into
• 17:08
  of like the old school, very conservative lightweights, lots
• 17:11
  of reps camp or kind of the newer school like, Hey,
• 17:14
  baseball's really hard on the arm.
• 17:16
  Rehab also needs to be really hard to get you ready for that
• 17:20
  kind of camp. And that's kind of the, the, you
• 17:22
  know, the newer age approach that I fall into that many of
• 17:26
  the others are starting to kind of lean into.
• 17:29
  But at the same time, especially at the org level, you're also
• 17:32
  potentially working along with surgeons who are putting, you
• 17:36
  know, downward restrictions on the PTS and AT CS.
• 17:39
  I know, I know many of the people that work in some of
• 17:42
  these orbs that do have those restrictions placed on them.
• 17:45
  And even if they want to, and this, this isn't MLB specific.
• 17:49
  This is even, you know, institutional places as well and
• 17:52
  ortho really where the PT wants to make these adjustments, but
• 17:56
  it's kind of a downward pressure from the surgical side.
• 17:58
  This is a conversation of how much control is is it for the
• 18:04
  surgeon to have over the rehab protocol.
• 18:06
  I know this is kind of a controversial opinion for the
• 18:09
  rehab setting in general. And this is almost like a
• 18:11
  pitting of surgeons versus PTS. Even though there are many great
• 18:15
  surgeons that we work with and that we really enjoy and who
• 18:18
  trust us as rehab providers, there are definitely still some
• 18:21
  oppressive is the word I'm going to use.
• 18:23
  But you know, take that with a grain of salt.
• 18:25
  But if they're set in their ways, they believe the things
• 18:27
  that they believe for the last 30 years and they don't really
• 18:30
  like to adapt forward. And so I think you're
• 18:33
  potentially seeing some rehab providers that maybe baseball
• 18:36
  specific potentially be withheld from progressing the demands
• 18:41
  simply just because that's the way things were always done.
• 18:44
  And I know you and I know certain names that we can say,
• 18:46
  but we're just not going to. But there there are many people
• 18:49
  who on the rehab side sometimes feel oppressed or restricted by
• 18:55
  surgical protocols. And this is something that is
• 18:57
  difficult to take on just simply because the surgeons are the
• 19:00
  ones who do the surgeries, they are the ones that write the
• 19:02
  protocols. This is more like a legislative
• 19:04
  level thing of how much, how much do we let P TS take over
• 19:08
  after a certain point and all of this fun stuff.
• 19:10
  And it's something that is slowly evolving in the industry.
• 19:14
  You are seeing more P TS start to kind of break away from, it's
• 19:18
  not like they're disregarding the surgical protocols, but
• 19:21
  they're going beyond what the surgical protocol minimums are.
• 19:23
  But at the same time, sometimes those minimums are the hard
• 19:26
  ceiling. And so it's it's kind of this
• 19:28
  give and take, especially when you do have those interactions.
• 19:32
  Obviously a natural step is to as APT break off and do the
• 19:38
  private pay cash base because you're basically operating your
• 19:43
  own silo at that point. You have greater control,
• 19:45
  greater reach, but then you still need to be significantly
• 19:49
  confident in your own approach that that is the right thing.
• 19:53
  But for those who might be subject to the control of a
• 19:58
  surgeon or a greater group, which is very much the case at
• 20:03
  both the professional. And collegiate levels, we we see
• 20:07
  that time and time again. I know athletes that have been
• 20:10
  put on major restrictions just because they showed up on campus
• 20:14
  and it completely shifted their paths in their rehab journeys.
• 20:18
  What do you think would be the straw that breaks the camel's
• 20:22
  back that would shift the power imbalance?
• 20:26
  And I'm not saying then it enables people in your shoes to
• 20:30
  tell surgeons what to do, but it just gives the power to the
• 20:34
  people in the sense where each rehab professional can make
• 20:38
  their own decision to do what they think is best.
• 20:43
  Yeah. I don't know if globally this
• 20:44
  will ever be a thing that gets adopted.
• 20:47
  And then, you know, I'm speaking this from baseball side, but I'm
• 20:50
  sure this is an issue with, you know, there's injuries in
• 20:53
  basketball injuries and hockey, whatever where these things kind
• 20:56
  of happened as well where there's kind of this downward
• 20:59
  restriction. But I don't know if it's so
• 21:01
  widespread like PT to surgeon that it would ever cause like a
• 21:04
  global level change of like every PT at your local ATI or
• 21:10
  sport and spine is going to be rallying to the legislation to
• 21:13
  be like we need control, you know, etcetera.
• 21:16
  I don't I don't think you'll ever get enough headway.
• 21:18
  I think this comes down to the individual be went being willing
• 21:23
  to have conversations with the surgeons.
• 21:25
  I think as surgeons cycle out over time, we have great
• 21:29
  surgeons like Matt Fury who are very much so in the newer kind
• 21:34
  of thinking, but still has a lot of great perspective from the
• 21:37
  people that he learned from that has that older approach.
• 21:40
  But I think overtime as potentially surgeons cycle in
• 21:43
  and cycle out, I've noticed that younger surgeons typically are
• 21:46
  more are, you know, willing to allow the rehab providers to to
• 21:50
  do a little bit more. So I think it's just kind of
• 21:52
  individual, go have a conversation with the person
• 21:54
  that you know is potentially holding you back.
• 21:56
  Try to provide resources and educational material if they're
• 21:59
  willing to it. But that also goes down to a
• 22:01
  personality level issue at a certain point where it's like
• 22:05
  you could give all the information you want and they
• 22:06
  may just still say this is how we do things.
• 22:09
  You stole the name out of my mouth.
• 22:11
  When you we're going to finish your response, even if you
• 22:14
  didn't say his name. I was going to say I wish he
• 22:17
  wasn't in the operating room this morning because I was about
• 22:19
  to say let's take a quick pause and I'll live.
• 22:22
  Call Matt Fury and see if we can get him to join the pod.
• 22:25
  Just for his perspective on this specific question, because I
• 22:29
  would be very curious From a guy who played collegiately himself.
• 22:33
  There can't be too many orthopedic surgeons who have a
• 22:37
  Tommy John scar themselves. Obviously Doctor Fury is in the
• 22:40
  select few. I think he should probably put
• 22:43
  that on his billboard somewhere. You might as well get operated
• 22:46
  on the guy that has the scar himself who played at a super
• 22:49
  high level. I mean, he played at LSU.
• 22:51
  So the dude gets it. He he gets the demands of the
• 22:55
  sport, not just to, he's not going to be the guy that's going
• 22:58
  to say like, oh, we have the advent of these new sweeper
• 23:01
  pitches or the power change up. And I mean, I, I heard her to
• 23:06
  take the other day that it made my skin crawl.
• 23:09
  There's no question about that. The individual being interviewed
• 23:13
  said that because the tack was taken off of the ball in MLB
• 23:20
  back in was that 2022-2023, because of the decreased tack of
• 23:25
  the ball, it enabled pitchers to finally start throwing this new
• 23:30
  sweeper because it didn't stick to their hand the same way.
• 23:34
  So like, whoa, OK. Like this is like a major jump
• 23:38
  in connection. It's maybe those two things kind
• 23:41
  of happened at the same time where the sweeper took took hold
• 23:45
  of baseball, grabbed it by the throat, and every single pitcher
• 23:47
  started throwing a sweeper. But that had nothing to do with
• 23:50
  the tack of the baseball. That was just holy shit.
• 23:53
  We can make a baseball go from right to left or left to right
• 23:56
  because of the way it interacts with the air.
• 23:58
  So that that was a crazy one to me that we have surgeons talking
• 24:03
  about pitch design and that should not be the case like
• 24:06
  that. That's one of those things where
• 24:08
  it goes back to like us, quote, UN quote, little people having
• 24:13
  to admit what we do know and don't know.
• 24:16
  Yeah, that that goes across the board.
• 24:18
  That's got to be across the board.
• 24:20
  Just because you've been to school for however many years
• 24:23
  and you've practiced as a clinician or as a surgeon for
• 24:26
  over many years doesn't give you the right to tell people what
• 24:31
  they should be doing to get hitters out.
• 24:33
  Taking that a step further, if the throwing programs and the
• 24:36
  training programs that these surgeons wrote were so freaking
• 24:39
  good, then why aren't the healthy guys doing them?
• 24:43
  Yeah, exactly. It comes down to the people who
• 24:47
  will probably write the better things are the ones that are
• 24:49
  actually seeing it play out in real time.
• 24:51
  And that's probably one of my biggest issues with kind of the
• 24:55
  downward restrictions that do get levied on people is it's
• 24:58
  like, have you ever been in the rehab room week after week
• 25:01
  watching a guy progress past those 50 LB dumbbells that
• 25:04
  you're scared of? Have you, have you ever been on
• 25:07
  the field with them while they progress from 50 miles an hour
• 25:10
  to 95 miles an hour over 24 weeks?
• 25:13
  Have you watched them deal with compensations and know when to
• 25:16
  pivot from the program and when to deload?
• 25:19
  Or when they start having pain and you're getting these
• 25:21
  objective markers, that's when I deload, etcetera.
• 25:24
  If you haven't been the one that's like actually
• 25:26
  implementing the protocols, but then you're levying harsh
• 25:29
  restrictions. I think that's probably the
• 25:31
  biggest error that occurs is like you need to be able to
• 25:35
  listen to the people that have to deal with the implementation
• 25:38
  and see it real time and be willing to adapt and learn and
• 25:41
  update the protocols. I would assume a lot of the fear
• 25:45
  in that comes from something I'm going to call from another sport
• 25:48
  that I saw two or three weeks ago on Twitter.
• 25:52
  I don't know how old this video is, so I might have just fallen
• 25:55
  victim to something that popped up in my Twitter feed.
• 25:58
  But I saw a video of the Texas Tech football weight room
• 26:02
  talking about how they don't have any dumbbell because you
• 26:07
  got to be strong to play. Like I'm going to be, I guess
• 26:13
  maybe stretching, stretching things a little bit to fit my
• 26:17
  narrative here. But if a surgeon or someone with
• 26:21
  a significant background in the rehab space is hearing strength
• 26:25
  coaches advocating that there is no purpose for any dumbbell or
• 26:29
  any weight below 40 lbs, it's like, OK, well This is why we
• 26:33
  can't just set people free and let them make their own
• 26:36
  decisions. Yeah, it's definitely a what the
• 26:40
  statement I made, you know, just a few moments ago is definitely
• 26:43
  with like a heavy grain of context.
• 26:46
  For sure. That the person that you're
• 26:49
  getting this recommendation from is somebody that understands
• 26:54
  what's going on and like is watching it play out in real
• 26:57
  time and has had enough volume to see trends like develop over
• 27:02
  time. So it's definitely like don't
• 27:04
  just take the random take off the Internet and be like, ah, my
• 27:08
  protocol is getting updated. But I think the other thing that
• 27:10
  holds this back and this is a real thing that all the medical
• 27:14
  community has to deal with is you have insurance and, and, and
• 27:17
  liability insurance is only going to potentially reimburse
• 27:22
  based off of certain factors. Liability may not cover you like
• 27:26
  your malpractice insurance and etcetera.
• 27:28
  If you are escaping the bounds of the very baseline, like this
• 27:32
  is our 80 year old research kind of stuff.
• 27:35
  When you start dipping in your toes into the new space and
• 27:38
  there's not a bunch of data to support it, you kind of get into
• 27:41
  risky territory in the medical profession and it's this
• 27:45
  difficult Gray space that baseball lives within because
• 27:48
  these are such high force demand athletes and rehab is not really
• 27:52
  been that thing in the past. Rehab is not had a ton of time.
• 27:58
  I would say in the grand scheme of like being, you know, with
• 28:00
  APT profession to really develop enough research or have enough
• 28:05
  good questions asked in the research of like what do these
• 28:08
  different inputs and stimuli do for a rehabbing body, etcetera.
• 28:12
  These long term outcomes that we see.
• 28:14
  I, I would say ACL research is probably the only Ave. that
• 28:18
  currently exists where there's a strong driving force for change
• 28:22
  and, and, and updating it and making it like really good and
• 28:26
  really top notch. It's like the one injury that
• 28:29
  affects so many sports that like as a group, researchers and PT
• 28:34
  providers are always like, we got to get better at this, But
• 28:37
  baseball is still too niche. Tommy John is still too niche, I
• 28:40
  think to really have that as like a driving research force.
• 28:44
  But I think in the future, hopefully that will start to
• 28:45
  change and and then the protocols will slowly get
• 28:48
  updated over time. My my old professor at Mizzou
• 28:51
  used to say that it takes like 20 to 25 years for research to
• 28:56
  reflect today's current practice.
• 28:58
  I don't think you're wrong or I don't think your professor is
• 29:01
  wrong by any means. I, I was even going to say
• 29:03
  something that a former pitching coach that used to be in an org
• 29:08
  that we were in told Darrell and I when we were rolling out flex
• 29:12
  pro grip, he said, I think your technology is great.
• 29:16
  I think this'll, this has the potential to be really big in
• 29:20
  baseball. I'd give it like 5 years.
• 29:23
  From the moment we heard that, we're like, you have no freaking
• 29:27
  clue what you're talking about, bud.
• 29:28
  Like, this is this is it, man. Like we have all the research to
• 29:32
  back it up. Like, this is going to be great.
• 29:34
  Like, and if we don't have the research, it means everybody
• 29:36
  else is wrong. So like, so be it.
• 29:38
  And that just means like, everything's been disproven.
• 29:41
  And that's not the worst thing in the world either, because
• 29:43
  then we just as an industry have to start from scratch.
• 29:46
  But as much as I hate to admit it, the dude's been like 100%
• 29:51
  correct. Like an adaptation by the
• 29:54
  industry as a whole. It takes five years and then
• 29:59
  that's five years for the people that don't need to see the
• 30:02
  research. Those are five years for the
• 30:04
  people that are willing to take the subjective feedback from
• 30:08
  others of saying like, oh, this thing is awesome, you should do
• 30:10
  it. Or the small little not so
• 30:14
  clinical case study of objectively our players got
• 30:17
  better or objectively our players got healthier.
• 30:20
  So it'll probably work for you guys too.
• 30:22
  But then as you said, while this is going on, it takes all those
• 30:25
  years for the longitudinal studies to be conducted for
• 30:29
  someone. Then however many years from now
• 30:31
  to say, Oh yeah, that thing that we were doing 20 years ago, it
• 30:34
  actually did work. So good for you guys.
• 30:37
  And now it's like the standard part of the protocol, right?
• 30:39
  And and and by. That then everything needs to
• 30:42
  change once again. Exactly.
• 30:44
  Exactly. You know, we Speaking of that,
• 30:46
  we had our friend, you know, I would say friend.
• 30:50
  There's that. I've had a few conversations
• 30:51
  with them. But Nick Katz, yeah, who's over
• 30:54
  in I think California at Berkeley, maybe.
• 30:56
  He is from, we'll try to nail the background.
• 31:00
  He goes to school in Wisconsin. He's from Berkeley means he
• 31:04
  trains in Silicon Valley so that the whole study that he's been
• 31:08
  conducting, he did it in the summer out has out at his
• 31:12
  Silicon Valley facility. But yeah, he's, he's currently,
• 31:15
  uh, balling through his senior season right now.
• 31:19
  Yeah, I. Want to make sure I get the
• 31:21
  specific shout out. So I'm going to in the
• 31:22
  background here. I'm going to make sure I get the
• 31:24
  the school and everything correct.
• 31:26
  But yes, our friend Nick Katz, I was actually texting with him
• 31:28
  this morning. Yeah.
• 31:30
  And he's a he's a good example of kind of like somebody that's
• 31:33
  paying attention is in a position to test out new things
• 31:38
  with his school and try to start, you know, initiating
• 31:42
  studies in these new methodologies.
• 31:44
  But again, he's, you know, he, he mentioned the limitations of
• 31:48
  the time constraints that he had and just a small population he
• 31:51
  had. It's like, yeah, 1 researcher,
• 31:53
  one kid that's interested in it. We're starting to get a little
• 31:55
  bit of favorable for a favorable data from it, but it's going to
• 31:58
  take a much larger adoption for it for it to be kind of
• 32:02
  something that the industry goes, Oh yeah, we can use this
• 32:05
  across the board, you know, and here's the here's the pros, the
• 32:07
  cons, the risks, the etcetera. Yeah, and that's the the perfect
• 32:13
  little teaser. So Nick Katz will be a future
• 32:16
  guest in the podcast. We've been planning it.
• 32:18
  Nick just has to present this specific study in this
• 32:21
  undertaking that he had at his school.
• 32:24
  He actually wants to present his thesis.
• 32:26
  And then once we get that taken care of and hopefully gets his
• 32:28
  passing grade and they let him graduate.
• 32:30
  So the school is Lawrence University in Appleton, WI.
• 32:33
  And as I said, he is having a very good year.
• 32:36
  So I'm stoked for him that he's going to be able to finish on a
• 32:38
  high note. And then eventually the point
• 32:40
  that I was making there with or I guess piggybacking off of you
• 32:45
  saying that he did this 11 man study of high school and college
• 32:49
  pitchers and like things were kind of raw.
• 32:53
  Every time I've spoken on the phone to him and talking about
• 32:56
  statistical significance or how many, how many test subjects he
• 33:00
  actually had in the trial, I said, dude, none of this, none
• 33:04
  of this matters from my perspective.
• 33:06
  What matters is that somebody is going to look at the trial that
• 33:10
  you performed and say this is not information that we have
• 33:15
  anywhere else and they are going to want to repeat it in a more
• 33:20
  controlled environment. Then that never would have
• 33:23
  happened if you didn't take the first step.
• 33:26
  Yeah. And so, you know, we got people
• 33:28
  taking first steps and hopefully that piggybacks into further
• 33:32
  studies and development. But I also want to slightly push
• 33:35
  back about this whole premise that we need to study right.
• 33:38
  We know that we have all of this and we, we, this is a common
• 33:43
  thing in, in application of strength and conditioning and
• 33:46
  physical therapy. We look at studies and animal
• 33:49
  models, we look at studies in distant joints and injuries and
• 33:53
  we extrapolate like this is a, this is a very common thing.
• 33:57
  So we know what things generally like on a principal level work
• 34:01
  for things like ACL injuries or ankle instability or whatever it
• 34:05
  may be. We have old shoulder studies and
• 34:07
  we can extrapolate, we can borrow from our strength and
• 34:10
  conditioning principles and build upwards towards, you know,
• 34:13
  these newer methods and stuff. And it doesn't have to be a
• 34:16
  comprehensive study, it just has to be well founded and principle
• 34:19
  based. No, I, I think that's a
• 34:22
  fantastic point because if you look at the muscular tenderness
• 34:26
  world, the majority of studies, I would actually love to see the
• 34:30
  breakdown in order of how often each muscle and tendon is
• 34:33
  studied. But even if we just, even if we
• 34:37
  just go like super broad and we don't say like the specific
• 34:42
  tendon or the specific muscle of the quad, generally the quad and
• 34:46
  the hamstring are probably the two most studied muscles of the
• 34:49
  body. At least it seems like after
• 34:51
  that, then we're probably going to fall down to either the
• 34:55
  gastrocnemius or biceps. I don't know.
• 34:58
  And then maybe after that it's the triceps.
• 35:00
  Maybe I I would be very curious though.
• 35:03
  I would have to believe that the quad and the hamstring probably
• 35:07
  account for 2/3 of total muscle tendon research that's ever been
• 35:12
  done. I mean you'd probably know
• 35:14
  better than me, but muscle tendon units still respond to
• 35:18
  load the same no matter where they are.
• 35:20
  So like why wouldn't we extrapolate that information?
• 35:23
  It only makes sense to like, what is the point of trying to
• 35:27
  bite off more than we can chew if we already have the
• 35:29
  information and it applies with why?
• 35:33
  Why wait? Like why wait for something
• 35:35
  different? Yeah.
• 35:37
  And you know, and this goes to that that tissue level stimulus
• 35:40
  adaptation like understanding like that foundational principle
• 35:44
  of like if we apply a stimulus to a muscular tendonus unit, A
• 35:48
  muscle belly, the the ligament itself etcetera.
• 35:51
  We already have like the the histological like research, like
• 35:54
  OK, what is what is mechanical strain do a ligament, what is
• 35:57
  mechanical strain do to a tendon or muscle, etcetera.
• 36:00
  And what is like the adaptation look like?
• 36:02
  We can take all of that and then we can also look at what do we
• 36:05
  do for our lower body when it comes to strength and
• 36:07
  conditioning, Like how do we get these big global muscle groups
• 36:10
  more powerful and more resilient?
• 36:12
  We have all of these methods from triphasic to variations of
• 36:16
  like eccentric or isodynamic or whatever at whatever fancy term
• 36:20
  you want to throw out there of like a different kind of
• 36:22
  application. We can blend all this together
• 36:25
  to say that OK, our J Band routine, our throwers 10 is not
• 36:29
  enough. What are these principles that
• 36:32
  we would use for something else and how do we extrapolate that
• 36:36
  and apply that to the throwing arm?
• 36:38
  And that also means that you need to understand them at the
• 36:41
  the forces that are occurring in the throat.
• 36:43
  You need to understand that when you go in the lay back like your
• 36:45
  internal rotators are under high eccentric demand.
• 36:47
  It's like a plyometric for the throw, right?
• 36:50
  So like what, what do we do to build up plyometrics for the
• 36:52
  lower body? OK, well, we can do that for the
• 36:54
  arm. Deceleration is a big component.
• 36:56
  Well, what do we do for the lower body?
• 36:57
  What can we do for the arm? You know, how do we go beyond
• 37:00
  just like the slow eccentric? What about RFD work, what about
• 37:03
  eccentric RFD work, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
• 37:06
  You could go on and on and on of like we already do things
• 37:09
  somewhere. We already do things for the
• 37:11
  Achilles, for the Co-op, whatever.
• 37:12
  We can extrapolate that and make the rehab protocols better and
• 37:15
  build a systematic process for that.
• 37:17
  And we don't need the studies to do that really.
• 37:19
  But I think for adoption and learning, you will have to have
• 37:23
  the studies like universities are not going to teach methods
• 37:25
  that are not study based. It's not going to show up on the
• 37:28
  the physical therapy board exam. I, I think that is the perfect
• 37:34
  encapsulation of how this change is going to happen.
• 37:38
  You generally think, and I say you as a very general term, you
• 37:43
  as the masses out there, maybe I'm projecting, but change
• 37:47
  generally comes from the lower levels.
• 37:50
  And then the upper levels are like, oh, we should look at that
• 37:54
  and determine if the lower levels are correct or not.
• 37:57
  And that's likely what's going to happen if information spreads
• 38:01
  the way that we think it can. You don't need a study to tell a
• 38:05
  kid whatever. If you stand on your head for 10
• 38:10
  minutes a day, you'll throw 96 mph.
• 38:13
  If we found out that Paul Skeens stands on his head for 10
• 38:17
  minutes a day, I guarantee 95%, if not more of pitchers in
• 38:22
  America are going to start trying to do a headstand for 10
• 38:26
  minutes a day, every single day. We don't need a study to tell us
• 38:31
  that that works or doesn't work for that matter.
• 38:34
  Because if, if Paul Scheme says he does, it was like, well, why
• 38:38
  not? Might as well try it at least
• 38:39
  that like that is how these things are.
• 38:42
  I think going to change if there are enough power players,
• 38:46
  whether it's individuals with say in the industry or just the
• 38:50
  masses. Mass hysteria can be good or
• 38:53
  bad. If it changes the way that we
• 38:56
  approach the industry and approach rehab.
• 39:01
  Eventually the date is going to come around.
• 39:04
  Yeah. And it's it's almost a little
• 39:06
  bit of a, it's chaotic at first. It's like, it's like reverse
• 39:10
  entropy, almost like things, you know, people start doing things,
• 39:14
  the approaches start getting really varied and then
• 39:17
  everyone's like this probably isn't the thing.
• 39:20
  Let's narrow this down, the scope down to what we are
• 39:23
  finding consistently across the board works.
• 39:25
  That's an analogy for like my practice as well is like I've
• 39:29
  dabbled in a few different approaches and you have to
• 39:33
  dabble appropriately, meaning like you can't just apply it to
• 39:37
  a, a kid that it has no means trying something out, right.
• 39:42
  But if you built it up, if you, if you're ready to experiment
• 39:44
  with it, you try it, you even try it on yourself first, right?
• 39:47
  That's, that's kind of the old adage of like, if you're, if you
• 39:49
  aren't confident doing it, you shouldn't be giving it to an
• 39:51
  athlete kind of deal. But you start to experiment with
• 39:54
  different approaches. OK, because a long time ago
• 39:57
  impulses would have been like, what are we even doing?
• 39:59
  Why are we doing this if this is dangerous, etcetera.
• 40:02
  But now it's like, oh, OK, we can really fine tune this to
• 40:05
  what is useful rapid eccentrics or kind of the drop catches that
• 40:09
  some coaches are doing now. OK, well, that makes sense.
• 40:12
  We, we do altitude landings, we do plyometrics.
• 40:14
  We can do this for the upper body, but how do we do this
• 40:16
  safely? These are smaller tissues
• 40:18
  though. It really just comes down to
• 40:19
  like. Try it out, trial it in a safe,
• 40:22
  controlled environment, figure out what does and doesn't
• 40:24
  probably work, and then distill that down to to advance your
• 40:27
  practice. I even think we can step this
• 40:30
  back a little bit. One of the places that we've
• 40:32
  seen this across the board is in the way we program S&C.
• 40:37
  And I, I feel like this is, this is a topic that gets talked
• 40:41
  about anytime I have anyone with an S&C background on the
• 40:44
  podcast. So I apologize if this sounds
• 40:47
  like rinse and repeat to everyone else that's out there.
• 40:50
  But again, the example is we tried to get so specific for so
• 40:55
  long where at the end of the day the equation is if we have
• 40:59
  athletes who are really strong and can produce force quickly,
• 41:03
  they're going to be the best athletes.
• 41:05
  Possible, yeah. Like we don't need to have every
• 41:08
  one of our baseball players do split stance internal rotation
• 41:14
  movements while holding a glove in their left hand or holding a
• 41:18
  1 1/2 LB weight in their left hand to simulate having a glove
• 41:22
  and like 2 finger grip on a cable because that's how they're
• 41:26
  going to be holding a ball. That's so unnecessary.
• 41:28
  It's not going to create, although it might look more like
• 41:32
  the sport because you are in a split stance, you're at ball
• 41:35
  release, you're doing these things.
• 41:37
  It's significantly less sport specific because it comes
• 41:40
  nowhere close to producing the loads that you will actually
• 41:44
  experience in the sport. So what would be significantly
• 41:47
  more sports specific is yanking the hell out of something that
• 41:51
  is going to simulate what we talked about earlier.
• 41:55
  Those 100 plus Newton meters of stress on the medial elbow, or
• 41:59
  the crazy fast degrees of motion that we're covering with the
• 42:04
  shoulder, or the shearing forces that we're going to experience,
• 42:09
  or the ground reaction force that you're going to experience
• 42:12
  landing from a depth drop. Yeah.
• 42:15
  And I think that's a good clarification to add.
• 42:17
  Like when we when we've been talking about, you know,
• 42:20
  advancing rehab, it's still this principal level, fundamental
• 42:24
  level, tissue level stuff. It's just that we're realizing
• 42:27
  that from an arm perspective, from an upper body perspective,
• 42:30
  we haven't gone to the necessary lengths.
• 42:33
  It's not like, yeah, we aren't, we aren't just creating random
• 42:35
  exercises, random applications that look fancy.
• 42:38
  You're trying to take the principles that are fundamental
• 42:42
  to tissue adaptation and preparation for stress and apply
• 42:45
  that and, and there are exercises that we are
• 42:50
  applications of the intensity, the volume, etcetera that
• 42:54
  stimulate those that we have to achieve.
• 42:56
  And that's what's been lacking. We haven't gone far enough.
• 42:58
  We haven't gone to great enough length and rehab.
• 43:00
  We stopped too early. It's not that we're coming up
• 43:03
  with crazy exercises that are harmful or threatening to the
• 43:07
  protocols or the OR the the the surgical procedures themselves,
• 43:11
  but it's that we're continuing to progress beyond just like the
• 43:13
  basic stuff. So I'm going to ask you to
• 43:16
  speculate now. I'm sure you went through this
• 43:19
  at a certain point. We certainly did in our own
• 43:22
  progression in building flex, pro grip.
• 43:24
  Why do you think so many rehab professionals out there, or even
• 43:31
  baseball specific skill coaches for that matter, or high
• 43:33
  performance coaches fall short when it comes from applying the
• 43:39
  tried and true methods for the lower body or for PEC
• 43:42
  development and doing bench press, Doing these things that
• 43:45
  have been done forever. And then when we go to apply it
• 43:48
  to the forearm or the shoulder, it's like we've never trained a
• 43:52
  human being before or we've never exposed somebody to forces
• 43:56
  before. Why do you think that breakdown
• 43:59
  exists and what do you think needs to be done for people to
• 44:03
  take that next step? I think it's just the old
• 44:06
  narrative of like small muscle groups, we always just say
• 44:09
  they're endurance muscles, so train them for endurance.
• 44:12
  It's like, yes, they're endurance, but endurance in
• 44:14
  training often means low load, high volume, like the capacity
• 44:18
  to go for a long period of time, not withstand immense force for
• 44:23
  75 plus pitches in and outing over and over again.
• 44:27
  And I think it was just this poor understanding at the time
• 44:31
  or poor description at the time of like, what does it mean for
• 44:35
  it to be an endurance tissue, right?
• 44:37
  Well, in the context of this sport, it's a very different
• 44:40
  thing than like a runner. But that narrative has lived on,
• 44:43
  and that's kind of what has been taught.
• 44:45
  And so it comes from from the ground level, like we've been
• 44:48
  talking about this entire time, slowly starting to cross the
• 44:51
  board. Coaches are saying, yeah,
• 44:53
  baseball's really hard. We have to adapt.
• 44:56
  We have to go further with the loading protocols.
• 44:59
  So yeah, it started with the narrative.
• 45:01
  I think in the past I've just like these are endurance
• 45:03
  muscles. Do your three sets of 25 one
• 45:06
  pound weights and we're realizing that's just not good
• 45:08
  enough. Here's another hyper specific
• 45:10
  example of something that will encapsulate this discussion of
• 45:15
  what it means to actually have endurance the way that we need
• 45:20
  it in the sport of baseball. And I'm going to be taking a
• 45:23
  couple liberties. I don't know if this is the
• 45:25
  specific player, but because I'm not working with him on this,
• 45:29
  I'm going to guess on who it was based on when the discussion
• 45:32
  occurred and the way these things played out and me just
• 45:35
  connecting dots in the background.
• 45:37
  Andy Galpin appeared on the Huberman Podcast a couple years
• 45:43
  ago. He's a recurring guest there.
• 45:45
  But this specific event that I'm talking about was a couple years
• 45:48
  ago, he talked about working with a professional baseball
• 45:51
  pitcher who I am 99% sure is Trevor Bauer, based on Bauer
• 45:58
  referencing Andy Galpin on a couple things that he has
• 46:02
  discussed. And they were looking at tissue
• 46:05
  endurance in the way that he needs his body to function to be
• 46:10
  a high level starting pitcher. So one of the tests that they
• 46:13
  were looking at was repeat Max effort counter movement jumps.
• 46:19
  So truly a single effort bout. How high can I jump on a counter
• 46:24
  movement? And basically how long can I
• 46:27
  sustain that Max height? I'm again, I'm calling from
• 46:32
  something two or three years ago, I don't know.
• 46:34
  And it was probably even longer now.
• 46:36
  I don't know if Max height was what they looked at.
• 46:38
  It could have been impulse, could have been breaking forces,
• 46:41
  but whatever, Doctor Galpin told Trevor.
• 46:44
  Like, OK, when you fall outside of 4% of your peak, let me know
• 46:54
  and that will determine if we need to adjust anything in your
• 46:56
  training. The story goes that like 106
• 47:01
  counter movement jumps later, Trevor calls Galpin say, like,
• 47:05
  I'm only 2% off. Like what do I do?
• 47:09
  And Galpin's like, no, you're good.
• 47:10
  Like I, you probably should have stopped like 40 reps ago.
• 47:13
  This is not this is not a stimulus that we need to expose
• 47:16
  you to anymore. But that's the reason I even
• 47:20
  bring up that story is that's endurance in baseball.
• 47:23
  How often can you repeat Max effort?
• 47:26
  It doesn't mean you don't need endurance, but it also doesn't
• 47:29
  mean you need the endurance of a triathlete.
• 47:32
  What you need to be able to do is repeat in handle Max loads
• 47:38
  over and over and over and over and over again.
• 47:40
  And that goes back to what you were saying way back at the
• 47:42
  beginning of where people are finally realizing we need to do
• 47:46
  something different in rehab. When high school pitchers are
• 47:49
  going out and throwing 95 miles an hour.
• 47:51
  And because they're a high school pitcher, that also means
• 47:54
  they're playing either shortstop, first base, catcher,
• 47:56
  center field, and then they're having to do that 95 mile per
• 48:00
  hour throw for the game that they're starting on the mound on
• 48:04
  Tuesday. And then they're gonna have to
• 48:06
  close the close the game out on Saturday.
• 48:09
  And in between, they also played shortstop, center field, first
• 48:12
  base for catcher on Thursday. Yeah, exactly.
• 48:16
  Yeah. And I think one of your
• 48:17
  protocols that you know, highlights as well like this is
• 48:19
  a trainable thing, right? It's very trainable endurance
• 48:24
  protocol. Is this in practice for the
• 48:26
  forearm flexors? And this is kind of the end
• 48:29
  stage stuff like we don't we don't throw guys into endurance
• 48:32
  training, right? You know, three weeks out of
• 48:34
  Tommy John. This is not stuff that we're
• 48:35
  trying to prepare them that early for, but best believe it
• 48:39
  that before I'm letting them get to a certain level in their
• 48:42
  below, they have done their RFD and their endurance and they
• 48:44
  have done other things for their shoulder and their upper body
• 48:47
  that has pushed them to like exert over and over again.
• 48:52
  And you know, I think it's also important to to to note you
• 48:55
  don't have to do it 100 times when you're training the
• 48:58
  endurance protocol. There is this, you know,
• 49:00
  diminishing returns whenever it comes to any kind of training
• 49:03
  application in the weight room. It's not like we're saying you
• 49:06
  throw 75 pitches, you have to do these 75 reps to be prepared for
• 49:09
  it. It's just that we are training
• 49:11
  the tissue to have this endurance, high output stimulus
• 49:15
  that we're putting into it. So that way when you take the
• 49:19
  skill itself and you progress towards that goal, you have the
• 49:23
  physical foundation to actually make progress and recover from
• 49:27
  the skill stimulus that you're putting on it.
• 49:30
  And I think it's another important note is like the skill
• 49:33
  is the stimulus as well. It's not just that the rehab or
• 49:38
  the training will solve all of this.
• 49:40
  It is the combination of building a physical foundation
• 49:44
  that prepares you for the gradual progression you will
• 49:48
  take in the skill re acquisition.
• 49:51
  Whenever you start your return to throw and you start getting
• 49:53
  back on the mound and you start doing these things, if you don't
• 49:56
  lay that foundation on the physical side and get the
• 49:58
  tissues exposed to those stimuli, the skill becomes the
• 50:02
  only stimulus. And that that can be very
• 50:04
  detrimental, especially at high levels whenever the skill is
• 50:08
  just way outpacing the physical capacities you've been exposed
• 50:11
  to. So it's, it's definitely this
• 50:13
  give and take. There is a relationship between
• 50:16
  the two. It's not just like, hey, I can
• 50:18
  get you right in the in the rehab gym and tomorrow you'll be
• 50:21
  able to go out and throw 100 pitches because you did these,
• 50:25
  these exercises. You've got to still build the
• 50:27
  skill up. For sure, it is weird to make a
• 50:31
  shift like an actually call for a shift in discussion, but based
• 50:35
  on you saying the demands of the sport outpacing where we're at
• 50:40
  in rehab or the preparedness of the athlete, I want to latch on
• 50:44
  to that for a moment. That kind of goes back to the
• 50:46
  rapid flexion testing example I gave for that professional
• 50:49
  pitcher way back. I don't even know how many
• 50:51
  minutes ago that was in the podcast.
• 50:53
  I wish I had a running counter with our with our chapters so I
• 50:57
  could go see that. It was probably like 40 minutes
• 51:00
  ago for all I know. But speaking on athlete
• 51:03
  preparedness, I want to talk about what we're seeing in the
• 51:07
  initiation of return to throw and return to performance
• 51:10
  programs. You and I have worked very
• 51:13
  closely on this. We obviously think very
• 51:16
  similarly. So I don't want this to just be
• 51:19
  like a pat on the back to one another discussion for like how
• 51:22
  good of programs that we feel we created or like how amazing
• 51:26
  these programs are. Like, yeah, of course we think
• 51:28
  they're really good programs, otherwise we wouldn't have put
• 51:30
  them out there and we wouldn't have put our names on them.
• 51:33
  But that doesn't mean every athlete is going to feel the
• 51:36
  exact same way that we do about the programs that we created.
• 51:40
  There are other programs out there that other athletes are
• 51:42
  going to do. For example, one of the athletes
• 51:45
  that I spoke to recently was encouraged before he even
• 51:49
  considered the return to throw, before he even consider getting
• 51:53
  in the weight room was to take six weeks off to literally just
• 51:57
  chill post surgery and let everything calm down.
• 52:00
  Why is that potentially good if you are going to look at it with
• 52:05
  rose colored glasses, like what would be the potential benefits
• 52:09
  just so we can try to get some good credit there and then from
• 52:13
  the biases that you and I possess, why is that the wrong
• 52:17
  thing to do? Well I think the the context is,
• 52:21
  is this a healthy athlete or a post op athlete?
• 52:23
  This is a post op athlete. Well, there's always an ongoing
• 52:27
  debate in a lot of different surgical procedures of like
• 52:31
  active versus passive rest. Rotator cuff repairs is like a
• 52:35
  good example of this where there is still like a very heavy camp
• 52:39
  of like delayed range of motion versus like early range of
• 52:42
  motion and how aggressive you want to be in those first six
• 52:46
  weeks. And like some surgeons are like,
• 52:48
  yeah, get them moving really quickly after surgery.
• 52:51
  And other surgeons are very much so like don't move at all.
• 52:55
  And I think from from 1 standpoint, the, the don't move
• 53:00
  at all crowd, like the chill crowd is, is essentially saying,
• 53:04
  let the body heal, let the body take care of it on its own and
• 53:07
  then we'll worry about doing this later.
• 53:09
  And I think that on on paper that sounds OK until we start to
• 53:13
  think about, OK, well, what drives healing?
• 53:15
  Well, like these are all tissues that respond to mechano
• 53:18
  transduction. Like the electrical signal of
• 53:21
  movement is how all of these cells work.
• 53:24
  The stimulus of load are how all of these cells repair
• 53:27
  themselves. And while there is this getting
• 53:31
  out of the way and letting the body do its thing, we can also
• 53:35
  provide the necessary like inputs to make sure that that
• 53:40
  process is well organized for the body.
• 53:42
  A good example of this is like if we know if we tear a ligament
• 53:45
  or a tendon, like collagen lays down super disorganized and it
• 53:49
  gets organized through mechanical loading.
• 53:51
  So I think our bias is what we want to be doing as much as we
• 53:55
  can as early as we can and not have an athlete sit around for
• 53:59
  six weeks. And I would argue that's the
• 54:02
  better response just simply based off of like the research
• 54:04
  that we have. And it comes with a
• 54:06
  responsibility when you're in that camp of understand the
• 54:10
  procedure that was done and like what you should not be doing and
• 54:15
  how safely you can progress things.
• 54:17
  Because if you are in the camp of move early, you can do too
• 54:20
  much and you can disrupt what the surgeon did.
• 54:24
  So this kind of goes back to that 45 minute ago take of like
• 54:27
  surgery and surgeon versus rehab.
• 54:30
  And the surgical protocols were there to prevent their surgery
• 54:35
  from being disrupted, right? So like, be conservative, don't
• 54:38
  let the surgery get disrupted. But at the same time, we've
• 54:41
  learned in a lot of different injuries that like there are
• 54:44
  necessary steps during that time period.
• 54:46
  And as long as you put the necessary constraints on, we
• 54:49
  should be moving probably more than not.
• 54:51
  I'm going to add a non data-driven take here and
• 54:56
  actually on both sides so I will provide both the counter
• 55:00
  argument and supporting argument.
• 55:01
  I think a pretty quality counter argument to our bias is by
• 55:08
  taking time off you potentially are giving the athlete
• 55:11
  separation from the event. You're letting everything calm
• 55:14
  down, nervous system calm down. Maybe they can become
• 55:18
  emotionally well just because of the trauma associated with the
• 55:23
  surgery, both physical and emotional trauma.
• 55:26
  I'm not trying to say that surgery isn't hard and athletes
• 55:28
  should all just get right back to the training and go grind
• 55:32
  because that's what we do. So yeah, there there's a piece
• 55:35
  of that. And there probably is a case for
• 55:37
  some athletes that just need the separation.
• 55:39
  They went through a lot. They want some time away from
• 55:42
  the sport. However, we can literally flip
• 55:45
  that exact counter argument on its head to the supporting
• 55:49
  argument for a much softer point, which is athletes are
• 55:53
  generally creatures of habit and they feel much better when they
• 55:56
  have their routine and they have everything in place.
• 55:59
  When you're talking to a collegiate pitcher, a
• 56:01
  professional pitcher, a high level high school pitcher, they
• 56:04
  understand what they need to do to be as good as possible.
• 56:09
  And generally being in the weight room or being in the
• 56:12
  training room and stressing themselves physically are things
• 56:16
  that they enjoy doing beyond just something that is going to
• 56:20
  help them recover. Due to all the fancy terms that
• 56:24
  you threw at us, I do think there is a significant positive
• 56:31
  emotional and mental response that comes from maintaining the
• 56:35
  routine of getting back to doing work.
• 56:38
  Even if you're not addressing the surgically repaired UCL of
• 56:43
  your right arm, if you go back in, you're doing leg extensions
• 56:47
  and leg curls and hip abduction work two weeks after surgery.
• 56:53
  I don't know. I I tend to feel that you're
• 56:55
  going to feel much better just as a human being, because that's
• 57:01
  what you've always done. We just generally know exercise
• 57:04
  makes people have better moods, better emotional stability,
• 57:07
  etcetera. Like that's that's the the
• 57:09
  Huberman podcast one O 1 right, right.
• 57:11
  Yeah, get out and move. Get out and move.
• 57:13
  Find something that works for you.
• 57:14
  This is all the crazy stuff that I do.
• 57:17
  But if you just like get out in the sun for an hour a day, and
• 57:20
  if you find a 30 minute workout routine that you can do five
• 57:24
  days a week, you're going to feel a heck of a lot better.
• 57:27
  Now here's all the data that I do on my own body like this.
• 57:30
  That's the podcast. You're right.
• 57:32
  Yeah. And you know, I can't tell you
• 57:35
  how many athletes that I've done post op where we start lifting
• 57:39
  when the surgical site is healed and we can start sweating and,
• 57:43
  and the risk of infection is gone basically or are very much
• 57:47
  diminished. You know, and that's kind of the
• 57:48
  early like first ten days where we don't really want the athlete
• 57:52
  getting too sweaty or, you know, too disgusting because of
• 57:54
  infection risk. Once that's done, we start going
• 57:57
  to we start lifting three to four days a week.
• 57:59
  We have conditioning two to three days a week and it's built
• 58:01
  around whatever injury has occurred, whether it's the
• 58:03
  shoulder, elbow or anything else.
• 58:05
  I can't tell you how many times I've had an athlete say, oh, it
• 58:09
  feels so good to move again and to train again and I can't think
• 58:14
  of one athlete where they said I wish I would have sat down for
• 58:17
  the next 4 weeks and not done anything.
• 58:19
  The, the other caveat, you know, bias or piece to add to our
• 58:24
  argument is I've seen the outcomes of the individuals that
• 58:28
  did the six weeks of chill or just like very low level.
• 58:31
  I'm only going to do range of motion on my elbow for six
• 58:34
  weeks, but only range of motion up to a certain point as well.
• 58:37
  And they didn't go to PT because the surgeon said don't go to PT
• 58:40
  for six weeks. And those guys have a lot more
• 58:43
  issues. There's if they're really
• 58:45
  uncomfortable, they're painful to regain the range of motion
• 58:48
  because six weeks is a long time to not be moving a joint post
• 58:52
  op. You're going to atrophy like
• 58:53
  crazy. The capsule is going to start to
• 58:55
  stiffen all this other stuff. So I think I think 66 weeks is a
• 58:58
  stream, two to three weeks, I think it's much more reasonable
• 59:02
  and I think in general, we know that movement is better than
• 59:05
  not. Now back to like the emotional
• 59:06
  stability standpoint. I think that applies at any
• 59:09
  point in any athletes career where sometimes it's step away
• 59:13
  for a week, step away for two weeks where it's like you either
• 59:16
  need to get a new perspective on how you want to approach these
• 59:20
  coming months and years or you just like need help.
• 59:24
  You know, stop stressing about the injury, stop stressing about
• 59:26
  what your arm feels like on a day-to-day, go on vacation.
• 59:29
  I've had multiple athletes that go on vacation and suddenly all
• 59:32
  the little aches and pains that they were feeling or just like
• 59:35
  washed away when they get back to like I feel so amazing now.
• 59:39
  The little ache I've had in my bicep, this whole rehab is gone,
• 59:42
  etcetera. You know, they don't think about
• 59:44
  it anymore. So there is definitely this
• 59:47
  emotional stability component of get away from the process for
• 59:51
  small periods of time and don't just be so ingrained in it.
• 59:54
  Don't make your entire identity about how my arm feels today in
• 59:58
  this process. And don't stress yourself out to
• 1:00:00
  the point where like you're losing perspective on your also
• 1:00:04
  your larger life as well. Most athletes aren't going pro.
• 1:00:07
  That's something that, you know, I've talked with a few athletes
• 1:00:10
  before in the past is like. Hey, put this into perspective
• 1:00:13
  like we're rehabbing this because you love baseball, but
• 1:00:15
  baseball is like 3 years of your life.
• 1:00:18
  What's after that? Let's also consider like what
• 1:00:21
  comes after baseball and like what you're interested in and
• 1:00:24
  I'm like what makes you happy outside of that?
• 1:00:26
  Because I think sometimes in the rehab setting in this like go
• 1:00:29
  hard, grind, get back, be be dominant on the field mindset
• 1:00:33
  that you can have with baseball. You also get lost in it and
• 1:00:36
  forget that like this is a game that's only going to be very
• 1:00:38
  short term in your life. Like go on, go consider what
• 1:00:42
  happens after college because right now you have like you're
• 1:00:46
  just taking your one random class 1/4 to play baseball.
• 1:00:49
  So like what? What's going on afterwards, bud?
• 1:00:52
  I apologize if this is something that I just missed because I got
• 1:00:56
  so caught up in like, where are we going next?
• 1:00:58
  Where are we going next? But the reason we even went this
• 1:01:02
  route is if you take the time off, there's a really good
• 1:01:06
  chance you're just stuck playing catch up at the end.
• 1:01:09
  And if you're stuck playing catch up, you're not going to be
• 1:01:13
  in a healthy place long term. You're you're just taking on so
• 1:01:17
  much more risk. Now, of course, if it means you
• 1:01:20
  have to take breaks, if we want to address all those things, I
• 1:01:23
  totally agree with you. I say time and time again, it's
• 1:01:26
  amazing what a clear mind can do for the body.
• 1:01:28
  When you're good up in the mentals, the body generally
• 1:01:32
  feels a lot better for granted. If you're stressing yourself
• 1:01:35
  physically, I like to think that impacts the mentals positively
• 1:01:39
  and then the body as a whole is going to feel better.
• 1:01:41
  But just clearing the head, clearing the mechanism, Bull
• 1:01:44
  Durham, that stuff generally works.
• 1:01:46
  If it means go, get away, by all means, go, get away.
• 1:01:48
  There's no question. It's easy to get caught up in
• 1:01:50
  the rehab process and really find yourself down a pretty bad
• 1:01:56
  spiral of how am I ever going to respond from this?
• 1:01:58
  Just kind of like the cassiola approach of labrum isn't real.
• 1:02:02
  Like if you just acknowledge that it never happened, you're
• 1:02:05
  probably going to be good. If you can legitimately erase it
• 1:02:08
  from your mind that you ever got hurt, you should be OK.
• 1:02:12
  Yeah, yeah. There's a good mental component
• 1:02:15
  to this that you know, and this is that every athlete is an
• 1:02:18
  individual case standpoint. And while the rehab protocols
• 1:02:22
  overtime will update and get better and we'll continue to
• 1:02:25
  push that forward, you still have to look at the person just
• 1:02:27
  like right in front of you. What do they need?
• 1:02:30
  What are they ready for? What can I do with them to help
• 1:02:33
  them get there? What's that old cartoon show?
• 1:02:37
  I don't know, I may be showing my age but Spice Girls or
• 1:02:40
  something Whereas. They powder puff girls.
• 1:02:43
  Powder puff girls. Yeah, like a little bit of this,
• 1:02:45
  a little bit of that. Everyone gets a unique mixture.
• 1:02:49
  There you go. Come on.
• 1:02:50
  Yeah, Spice Girls, I don't know, man.
• 1:02:52
  No powder puff girls. Yeah, yeah, Spice, everything
• 1:02:56
  nice. And then like all the superpower
• 1:02:58
  stuff that got tossed in there too.
• 1:02:59
  I can I can see the intro happening in my mind, so don't
• 1:03:03
  worry. I'm with you.
• 1:03:04
  We're the we're the same age demo.
• 1:03:06
  So it plays out for both of us now, Dylan, as we've recorded
• 1:03:10
  for a little over an hour at this point, or maybe right at an
• 1:03:12
  hour, I don't know. Like I said, I don't know where
• 1:03:15
  time is anymore. It's it's made-up.
• 1:03:17
  It's all construct anyways, and we're just living it day-to-day.
• 1:03:20
  But now that we've addressed where the industry is, where are
• 1:03:25
  you at? What do you have coming down the
• 1:03:26
  line? What do you been working on?
• 1:03:28
  Is there anything that you're able to share that you think
• 1:03:30
  will either push your athletes forward or hopefully push the
• 1:03:34
  industry forward? Now, of course, if there are
• 1:03:36
  things that you got to keep under wraps, go ahead and keep
• 1:03:38
  them under wraps because I know we're working on some projects
• 1:03:41
  together that I think will be really cool once they do come
• 1:03:44
  out. But I don't know if we're at a
• 1:03:46
  point of sharing all that. Yeah, you know, I'm happy to
• 1:03:49
  share it. You know, I'm working on an
• 1:03:51
  application that is built around like how we, how we program
• 1:03:55
  return to frozen general. And it's just like putting the
• 1:03:57
  power of everything that I've tried to learn and try to
• 1:03:59
  implement into coach's hands. I'm not sure when that will will
• 1:04:03
  come out or when I'll start marketing it more, but it's
• 1:04:05
  definitely like something I'm excited about.
• 1:04:07
  And as far as driveline goes, far as like my in person
• 1:04:11
  practice goes, for me, it's just like, how do I get better at
• 1:04:14
  working with the individual? And I think that's something
• 1:04:17
  that has been a very unique experience that I've had it at a
• 1:04:22
  driveline is I get to go out and play catch with somebody every
• 1:04:25
  day and like coach them every day.
• 1:04:27
  And what I realized is that no one person responds to what I
• 1:04:31
  did with the last person the same.
• 1:04:32
  And, and to me, trying to push that kind of knowledge into the
• 1:04:37
  field is really where my focus is, is just like, Hey, visit,
• 1:04:40
  these are things that I'm learning at the same time, just,
• 1:04:43
  you know, I, I do get the unique, the opportunity to to
• 1:04:46
  play catch with people as APT to like work with them on the
• 1:04:49
  throne side as APT. And I know that's something that
• 1:04:51
  people are hungry for. Continuing to to help people in
• 1:04:54
  that direction is kind of like my long term outlook as well.
• 1:04:57
  And maybe that's ACU course, maybe it's sometime or maybe
• 1:05:00
  that's, you know, building out a community at some point of a
• 1:05:03
  place to learn. But right now it's just head
• 1:05:06
  down work with the athletes I have and work on the little
• 1:05:09
  application I'm doing in the background.
• 1:05:12
  Awesome. Well then before I do let you
• 1:05:15
  go, because we're we're probably good at this point, do you feel
• 1:05:17
  there's anything that we missed? And for all I know, anything
• 1:05:21
  that we missed is going to lead to another 20 minutes.
• 1:05:24
  But feel free if that's the case.
• 1:05:26
  That's the case. No, I, I think we, we've
• 1:05:29
  probably rambled on a good amount at this point.
• 1:05:34
  I could, I could bring things up that lead us to another
• 1:05:36
  discussion of 1520 minutes, but I think that that just escapes
• 1:05:40
  the scope of what where we're at right now.
• 1:05:43
  For sure. Well, I think we will have you
• 1:05:46
  back on prior to another two years of requiring a new State
• 1:05:51
  of the Union. But it it really didn't seem
• 1:05:54
  like it was that long because you were on for the Baseball
• 1:05:56
  Rehab Network discussions. And of course, I released those
• 1:05:59
  podcasts and then because I'm zooming with you once every two
• 1:06:03
  weeks anyways, it feels like it feels like way more podcast
• 1:06:07
  episodes to me than being on episode 2 or 3.
• 1:06:11
  And now episode I think this will be 110.
• 1:06:14
  No one 10110. We're two years into it. 200
• 1:06:18
  would be crazy that. Would be crazy.
• 1:06:20
  But hey, we're we're one episode a week, every single week since
• 1:06:25
  we started this back in March of would that be 2024?
• 1:06:29
  Yeah, haven't missed. Rate.
• 1:06:32
  That's a good hit rate. It is, yes, of course, some
• 1:06:35
  higher than others. You were #1 listen to episode
• 1:06:39
  all time for a long time, and unfortunately, you've lost that
• 1:06:42
  crown. You guys have grown a bit.
• 1:06:45
  Yeah, but you, you should have a volume stats from being so
• 1:06:48
  early. So maybe we can bring this back
• 1:06:51
  and this one will do well for you.
• 1:06:53
  I'll be sure to keep you posted. All righty.
• 1:06:55
  Sounds good. Yeah you can, you can talk some
• 1:06:57
  smack to your boy Bryce Kreider cuz he he is either up there as
• 1:07:01
  #1 or #2 all time now. His went crazy.
• 1:07:05
  So go find him at the facility or no?
• 1:07:07
  He's down in Tampa now. He's in Florida.
• 1:07:10
  Yeah, yeah, he, he left dreary Kent for sunny Tampa.
• 1:07:14
  But next time, next time you guys are on like a team call,
• 1:07:18
  talk some smack and tell him you're coming for him.
• 1:07:20
  But I guess maybe, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned him
• 1:07:23
  here cuz this is gonna stay in the opposite and this is gonna
• 1:07:25
  be like, I didn't listen to that one.
• 1:07:27
  Let me go back and listen now. Who knows?
• 1:07:29
  Yeah, the plug. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:31
  So, Dylan, Drop once again how people can get in touch with
• 1:07:34
  you. Yeah, you can go to my
• 1:07:37
  Instagram, the baseball physio, you can reach out to me there,
• 1:07:41
  or you can go to my website, athleticpotentialpt.com.
• 1:07:45
  Or if you want, you can reach out to Driveline themselves.
• 1:07:48
  If you want to get in touch with either myself or my partner
• 1:07:52
  Jason Motafari down in the Tampa location.
• 1:07:54
  If for any reason you want to chat, whether it's a
• 1:07:56
  professional and athlete that wants to rehab, whatever it may
• 1:07:59
  be, I'm always happy to take calls with anybody in the
• 1:08:02
  industry as well. They just want to talk shop so.
• 1:08:06
  And I guess before I I do let you go, is it an official
• 1:08:10
  requirement to be below 510 if you're going to serve as a
• 1:08:14
  feasible therapist for athletic potential while looking
• 1:08:18
  potentially higher in Arizona? No, hopefully our Arizona guy is
• 1:08:22
  at least like 6-8 to make up for it.
• 1:08:25
  Yeah, so then you guys are coming out with an average
• 1:08:27
  height of 6/1 Exactly. Every, everyone who doesn't get
• 1:08:31
  the inside joke there, Jason Mofari, that Dylan's partner, as
• 1:08:35
  he's mentioned a couple times, is a little muscle hamster as
• 1:08:40
  he's called himself. I think he's he's about 5-5, but
• 1:08:44
  he is probably stronger than your entire team put together if
• 1:08:48
  it comes to total weight lifted. But everyone go check out
• 1:08:51
  Jason's episode of the Laid Back podcast as well, and he'll tell
• 1:08:53
  you a little bit of his bodybuilding background and just
• 1:08:57
  how strong he really is. He's ejected.
• 1:09:00
  Yes, he is there, There's no question about that.
• 1:09:02
  And I, I love what it's enabled him to do and how he's kind of
• 1:09:05
  connected the dots into the baseball world for these very
• 1:09:08
  interesting opposing demands. But Dylan, this, this was
• 1:09:13
  fantastic. I appreciate the time today and
• 1:09:17
  your willingness to, I don't know, maybe turn a few heads,
• 1:09:20
  maybe offer a couple hot takes. We'll we'll see where this goes,
• 1:09:23
  but hopefully, hopefully it leads to what you and I love,
• 1:09:26
  which is follow up conversations.
• 1:09:29
  Yeah, absolutely. All right.
• 1:09:30
  Thanks for having me, Adam. Of course, and to all the
• 1:09:33
  listeners out there, thanks for laying back with us.