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Interview with Jacque and Matcha, Jacque · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the Specialty Match Podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan, this is my Coho Sungjun.
0:04
Hello. Hello.
0:05
And we're the cofounders of Sanko Match Products.
0:08
Yeah. We launched this podcast to
0:09
discuss our learning journey in Matcha, share startup stories
0:12
and interview experts. And today we are happy to have
0:16
Jack from Jack and Matcha. Welcome, Jack.
0:19
Hi everyone. Thank you so much for having me.
0:23
Thank you. Thank you.
0:25
Thank you for coming on, we've been exchanging on Instagram for
0:29
quite a while. So so happy you could a friendly
0:31
get to see you face to face. Yes, that's true.
0:34
And hopefully like some way, like somehow in the future, we
0:37
all get to like share a bowl of tea together in.
0:41
Person, I think both Sam and I, when our mill prototype is to
0:46
the point where we're very happy, I think Manila and the
0:49
Philippines will definitely be on the road show of where we
0:53
take it. Definitely, we would love to
0:54
have that here. Yeah.
0:55
We, we think just Southeast Asia in general, the matcha scene is
0:59
just exploding and it's kind of exploding in a way that we're
1:03
not seeing a lot of other places, especially in the
1:06
Philippines, Thailand, Singapore.
1:08
It's really cool to see like Matcha gained a foothold in
1:12
those markets. Starting like crazy, like this
1:15
year alone, I feel like so many cafes have popped up, so many
1:21
matcha content creators have like signed up on Instagram, so
1:26
it's crazy. The girls from like the past two
1:29
years alone, it's crazy. That's awesome.
1:32
You can really feel it too, even remotely.
1:35
Yeah. It's it's been 2 years since
1:37
we've been back to the Philippines, so it's it's we
1:40
can't wait to see the scene in person too.
1:43
A time to go back. We'd love to have you guys soon.
1:46
That's awesome. So could you tell everyone a
1:48
little bit about your brand shock and matcha and a little
1:51
bit about your background as well?
1:53
Sure. So actually when I signed on
1:59
Instagram using the Jack and Matcha account, that was just a
2:03
way for me to post all my matcha content because I've been
2:06
drinking a lot of matcha and posting at my personal account.
2:10
And then I realized maybe the people who follow me there might
2:14
not be super interested with with so much matcha content.
2:18
So I decided to put put up a different one, right.
2:23
And then yeah, I think I started the account 2022.
2:27
So I was like deep in too much for like a year already.
2:32
And then it's just it just started to grow from there.
2:38
All the pop ups that I've been doing lately, that was all by
2:41
accident. So this the invention was just
2:45
for it to be a personal brand because I'm actually working on
2:49
a different brand for my matcha and Japanese teas in general.
2:54
So that brand is underway and hopefully I get to launch it in
2:57
2025. But for now, I'm going with my
3:01
personal account first as I like do my pop ups, introduce myself
3:06
in the community, in the market. So there my background would be,
3:14
huh? I'm just, I describe myself as a
3:17
matcha enthusiast first and foremost.
3:19
I really just enjoy drinking it in usucha in lattes and
3:24
desserts. And eventually because of my
3:26
love for matcha and all my travels in Japan, I discovered
3:31
Shadow or Chano U. So for a year now, I've been
3:34
practicing with Orasenke Tangkokai in Manila.
3:38
So there's a Manila association. I've been practicing with them
3:41
for over a year and I really fell in love with the idea of,
3:47
with the idea behind each other, not just like serving tea, but
3:50
all the parts about just being grateful for for all the
3:56
encounters that you're having. That's one of the things that I
3:59
really love about it. And then now I would consider
4:03
myself someone who's who wants to be in the F&B industry for
4:09
real. So I started I guess as like a
4:11
home Brewer and then now I really want to be able to share
4:16
and spread more about Matcha through like a brand for there.
4:20
Awesome, that's awesome. How long is your average cafe?
4:24
Cause pop up like when I see when I see you on Instagram, it
4:29
seems like you're like stationed there for quite a while.
4:31
It's almost like you're like guest chefing but like but for
4:35
like a matcha barista. Yeah, usually just two days.
4:39
So it's always a weekend because that's where most of the people
4:42
come in. So they invite me over the
4:45
weekend. Most of them are two days, but
4:47
some invite me for a day. OK.
4:50
So yeah, it just feels long I guess because I keep posting
4:54
about it prior to the to the actual pop up and then after the
4:59
pop up I have like posts, post events like roundups and stuff.
5:04
So it feels longer. I see so a lot of like other
5:08
macho brands and even like when sometimes Zhongjun and I are
5:11
talking, we're like, oh, we'd love to do pop ups.
5:14
Yeah, we we haven't done 1 yet. But like, what's good to know?
5:18
Like do you approach the coffee shops or do the coffee shops
5:21
approach you? How do you like plug into their
5:23
operations? How does that kind of unfold?
5:26
Yeah, it's really great because this all started through
5:30
connections that we have with our other like businesses in a
5:35
sense. So like I mentioned my husband
5:37
and his siblings, they own a cafe.
5:40
And then my job, my day job is that I'm a producer and I used
5:45
to work in a magazine. So I've had a lot of connections
5:47
also. And then it all started when
5:51
cafes would invite me. So they just told me as the
5:54
person who just loves drinking matcha.
5:57
And then one of my friends who owns a bakery, he just said you
6:01
want to do like a pop up this weekend because we don't serve
6:03
matcha, we only have coffee. So it would be nice for you to
6:07
serve matcha because a lot of people are looking for it.
6:10
And then it started from there. That was in August.
6:14
That was in August. We had a 2 day pop up.
6:16
I wasn't prepared at all. I ran out of matcha.
6:19
We had problems with like cups and stickers and all of those
6:22
things. And then it just snowballed from
6:26
there. Different cafes have invited me
6:29
from not just Manila. Actually, a lot of the people
6:32
who invited me are outside Manila.
6:33
So I did a few ones in the north and then at least one in the
6:38
South. Very cool.
6:39
So yeah. So for now, at first, I thought
6:42
I was like, OK, I'm only going to do this for a month, not a
6:44
month. Like, I'm only going to do this
6:45
once a month. So it adds to that mystery so
6:48
that people don't, like, always see me everywhere.
6:52
But that kind of changed because of the people who invite me,
6:56
which I'm grateful for. Now I would do pop ups every
7:00
weekend so that yeah, from like once a month to every weekend.
7:04
Since August, it became like the gaps between the pop ups became
7:08
shorter and shorter. And even in December, a lot of
7:12
people were asking for my schedule.
7:13
But I really couldn't commit anymore because of like personal
7:17
stuff and also will be traveling, so yeah.
7:21
Do cafe shops like tend to invite you when they do not have
7:25
a matcha program to begin with? Or like do do you see a mix of
7:29
both? There's definitely a mix of
7:31
both. So the first cafe that invited
7:34
me, they didn't have matcha at all.
7:37
The second cafe that invited me, they just noticed they serve,
7:41
they already serve their own matcha and they, they notice
7:44
that there's a growth in, in the number of people who would order
7:48
their drinks. So they wanted to invite me just
7:51
to see if people would really like interact with it, I guess.
7:56
And also based on I, because I have a big like a really long
8:00
menu. So that also allows the the
8:03
cafes who invite me to see and test out their markets, like,
8:07
what are their preferences, not just with matcha, but with like,
8:11
the flavors. And it's really surprising
8:14
because each and everyone will have different favorites.
8:18
Like, let's say in one place they'd be really like ordering
8:22
the lavender matcha, and then the other, another spot would
8:26
learn more towards Filipino flavors.
8:28
So we would do like, coconut Panda matcha latte.
8:31
So it changes for location. Yeah.
8:35
So it really changes for location.
8:37
So I really feel like it helps them figure out what their
8:40
market likes. So and also there are cafes who
8:44
invited me and they serve solely matcha.
8:47
So I'm like really confused why they would have me over.
8:50
But they said yeah, they just wanted to invite me to like, I
8:54
guess to interact more with the community.
8:56
And also most of the cafes here serve matcha from a specific
9:01
region like Uji, just because it's really popular and
9:04
commercialized, right? So I think whenever a cafe
9:09
invites me, I always say that, oh, perfect.
9:11
It's because I serve matcha from a different region.
9:15
So even if you currently have your own matcha menu, what I
9:19
have will be different. So it's it's also going to help
9:22
with your market to figure out their taste preference, if they
9:26
like a certain region more than the other.
9:29
So yeah, you. Specialize on yame.
9:32
All right. I think I see a lot of Hoshino.
9:34
Yeah. I.
9:35
Really, really love it. So the first time I tried
9:38
Hoshino, I was in New York. So I was going around trying out
9:44
different like cafes. And then we walked into
9:46
Satsugeka and then they had this menu which talked about Yami
9:53
matcha specifically and talked about the region in depth.
9:57
So I was super, super interested.
10:00
So they let me try. We ordered a bunch of things and
10:03
tried it out. And I'm like, I really enjoyed
10:05
this. And then after Setsugeka, I
10:08
tried Kettle, who also served at that time, Yami Matcha
10:12
specifically for their drinks and their.
10:15
I think it was. Yeah.
10:17
Not in their Brooklyn location, the other one.
10:19
That's just the window. Yeah.
10:21
So they were serving. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.
10:23
So they were just serving Yami matcha there.
10:25
And I'm like, hey, I think I really like the flavor nuts on
10:27
this one. And then since then, I got
10:29
really hooked. Yeah.
10:32
I love it too. That roasty, toasty refreshing.
10:36
I don't know. And I feel like that kind of
10:39
flavor profile really matches the Philippine old taste
10:43
profile. They're not used to it yet
10:46
because they're familiar with Uji or let's say Atmos Shizuoka.
10:50
But I feel like when it comes to like if you're an introductor, I
10:54
like if you're a beginner and you want to try something, I
10:57
feel like Yama is like a good entry point for a lot of
11:00
Filipinos. So that's what I'm trying to
11:03
also share when I do my pop ups that there are different flavors
11:07
of matcha depending on the region, depending on how it's
11:10
processed or something. So it really helps also with
11:13
education for me. Nice.
11:16
How do you approach that education?
11:18
I know you do a lot of workshops as well.
11:21
Like how do you decide what what makes the cut?
11:24
Like what do you include when you're like someone doesn't know
11:27
about matcha and like what do you include in your explanation
11:29
or, and or what do you specifically don't include?
11:32
Like how do you approach a lot of those conversations?
11:35
OK so actually I've only done a proper workshop once and a crash
11:40
course once. So like in total, I've only done
11:43
it twice, but a lot of people are already asking if I should,
11:46
if I can do it for them and their cafes.
11:49
So I finally decided on doing it just last Saturday.
11:54
So it took me a while to prepare for it.
11:56
And then at first I was really having a hard time narrowing
11:59
down the topics that I wanted to talk about because I could talk
12:02
about so many things and it would take hours and hours.
12:05
But I had to like make sure that first they won't get information
12:10
overload and also just to keep it slightly concise so that they
12:15
can also get on their own journey and like discover stuff
12:19
for themselves. So what I did was I definitely
12:23
use my Orsenke training as like a foundation because I feel like
12:30
not a lot of Filipinos practice Orsenke.
12:32
In fact, like in the association were only like 3 Filipinos
12:35
there. So I use that as my foundation.
12:40
I talk about the history a lot so that I can connect it to a
12:44
tea ceremony, like how matcha is traditionally consumed.
12:49
And then after that, I focus a lot on how matcha is processed
12:55
because I feel like here in the Philippines, they're not really
12:59
aware yet of like how much effort really goes into like a
13:03
tin of matcha. So I talk about how it's shaded,
13:07
how it can be machine picked or like handpicked and that even in
13:13
the milling process that there's a stone mill and there's a ball
13:17
mill. All of these like I've learned
13:20
also very recently. So I focus on all of those
13:23
things and kind of like let them know that based on the different
13:28
processes or the things that the matcha or tincha goes through,
13:32
the flavors change, the quality changes also cause.
13:37
Well, yeah, I feel like the biggest gap when it comes to
13:40
education here in the Philippines is the use of like
13:43
ceremonial grade, that term as a marketing term.
13:47
Everybody would either come up to cafes and be like, are you
13:51
serving ceremonial matcha? Or like cafes would then end up
13:55
using that term just to make sure that their customers know
13:58
that they're serving high quality matcha.
14:00
But that's not always the case because that there's so much
14:04
misinformation from the suppliers alone.
14:08
When it comes to my workshops, I try to clear all of those things
14:13
out as much as I can, because when I was starting out, I was
14:17
also misled somehow. And then everything else I
14:21
learned when we would visit Japan, when we would talk to
14:24
some of the farmers and suppliers.
14:27
So that's when I learned the hard way in a sense, like they
14:30
would say that doesn't exist here or that's not appropriate.
14:35
So I just so I make sure that I share everything that I was
14:41
looking for when I was starting out.
14:45
Yeah. So I, I start there and then
14:47
like kind of like expound on certain things when I see that
14:50
they're curious about something. So I always encourage them to
14:54
ask questions, especially if I feel like they have, they want
14:58
to know something that I didn't include in the workshop.
15:02
So I always tell them like just keep asking questions.
15:05
If it doesn't pop up now, like you can e-mail me, I can
15:09
definitely respond to you. So yeah.
15:12
So that's how I try to put together my My Workshop outline.
15:18
Makes sense? So so Jack, when you host a
15:21
workshop or a class, what are some of the aha moment for the
15:24
audience to find like super interested or get them super
15:28
inspired to, you know, want to learn more about matcha or drink
15:31
more matcha? I think the processes that kind
15:34
of like makes them realize how much effort goes into their bowl
15:38
of matcha. So they kind of like put more
15:40
value to it. They now want to learn more
15:43
about it in a sense that So what kinds of cultivars are in my
15:48
mind? How was it processed?
15:49
Was it handpicked? Was it machine pick?
15:52
Is it first flush, second flush? So they now, you know, the
15:55
wheels kind of turn on in their heads by having the right
15:59
questions to ask. So I feel like that's their aha
16:03
moment, that it's not as simple as just ground green tea that
16:08
there, there, there goes like, yeah, there's so many things
16:12
that go behind it for it to be produced like that.
16:15
So they also understand why certain things can also be
16:18
expensive while others can be like cheaper.
16:21
So they now know the reasons why the prices also fluctuate.
16:26
So yeah, I feel like it's really figuring out all the effort that
16:31
goes behind the production of Matcha.
16:34
It's not just ceremonial matcha, right?
16:37
It's like what kind of bar you know, what year does it harvest
16:41
or what's the flush and. You know, what's the, it's
16:45
really great because like even now, I would share with them
16:49
that a lot of the new brands that are, let's say Uweka MPCH,
16:55
they're very transparent when it comes to their labeling and they
16:59
kind of label their matcha just like specialty coffee.
17:03
And then I tell them that most brands, most of the newer brands
17:07
actually label their their matches a little more like
17:11
transparent, but like big brands from, from Japan, they're a
17:16
little more secretive about it. I guess they don't really share
17:21
that information so easily because even when I order my
17:24
matcha, so I order a bunch from Hoshino, Sisha and I order from
17:29
Yamamasakayama and I order from another farmer.
17:33
It's a family owned company, Kogacha Enyame.
17:37
Out of everyone, I think it was just Kogacha who was willing to
17:41
kind of share more details about their tea.
17:45
So they'll tell me more about it, like how long it's been
17:48
shaded, what are the cultivars present in it.
17:52
But when I asked the other companies, they're a little more
17:55
hesitant to share. They'll say that it's a secret.
17:57
It's like a trade secret that they can't share.
18:00
So yeah. We've gotten that answer a lot,
18:03
too. Yeah, that's the hard part.
18:06
Like I feel like I have to gain their trust 1st and I feel like
18:10
I'm only scratching the surface, but yeah.
18:12
Same. So for for the near future, I
18:14
guess in Philippines, Jack, how do you see the development of
18:20
specialty matcha? Do you see it as, you know, kind
18:23
of like a movement that's happening in some other
18:26
countries as well? Like people are focusing on, you
18:28
know, single origin single cultivar, they're drinking more
18:31
usucha. Or do you see like the consumers
18:34
are also generally more interested in like matcha mixed
18:38
drinks? And do you see that, you know,
18:39
being maybe a mix or do you see a geographic difference, for
18:43
example, like maybe people in Manila is more interested in,
18:46
you know, single cultivate or somewhere else?
18:48
Actually, I feel like right now the Filipino market, they're
18:52
more interested in mixed drinks, at least the general public.
18:57
But there's already like a growing community of like home
19:01
Brewers who are more detailed when it comes to the matcha that
19:06
they're drinking. So they are now exploring single
19:09
origins, although they still drink it with milk still or they
19:13
turn it into desserts. But I always think of it as how
19:18
specialty coffee grew here as well.
19:21
Like people really started with all the sweet stuff 1st, and
19:25
then eventually they transitioned to just drinking
19:27
the matcha or the black coffee on its own.
19:30
And then eventually they got really obsessed with pour overs,
19:33
which to me feels like usucha and koicha also.
19:39
Yeah, it's more volatile, the flavors, it's more subtle.
19:42
So I really feel like the Philippine market is heading
19:45
there because matcha has been available here for a long time.
19:49
But it's always the sweet stuff. So we've always had like soft
19:53
syrup, we've always had like matcha lattes, but it was only
19:58
that for the longest time. So only in the past few years
20:02
have I seen a lot of experimental drinks using
20:05
matcha. And I'm really hopeful that
20:08
eventually people are going to be more open to drinking it on
20:12
its own. Because right now there's only
20:15
one place in Makati that kind of serves osucha and not even
20:21
koicha yet, just osucha. So they would have like a tea
20:24
devustation and it's like they'll serve matcha as a latte,
20:29
they'll serve matcha as an ice cream, and then eventually
20:31
they'll have you transition to like drinking matcha as an
20:34
osucha. So there's only one place who
20:36
does that, All of the cafes or all of the brands that have been
20:40
coming up. Right now they're focused on
20:43
mixing it with lattes because I think that's how the social
20:47
media presence is like where it's at.
20:51
Also like everyone likes mixing it with drinks because it looks
20:54
cute, it looks pretty, They do the layers.
20:57
So I feel like we're there now, but there's so much more room
21:02
for improvement. Or like people are hungry to
21:05
also like explore matcha so. That's wonderful.
21:08
Actually, with the brand that I'm putting up, that's what I
21:12
wanted to focus on because right now with all the pop ups that
21:15
I'm doing, it is very fast-paced.
21:17
It's still very cutesy. It's still very like fun mixed
21:21
drinks, right? But once in a while, I serve
21:24
Osucha in certain places, have a warm welcome to it in a sense
21:29
that a lot of people order. So the biggest one, I think I've
21:32
had like 12 orders of Osucha and that was the biggest for me.
21:35
These people were so curious and I'm like, nobody orders Osucha.
21:39
So I'm super happy when like people order at least once.
21:43
But there's a place that ordered like 1212, people were open to
21:47
try it. So I feel like, OK, as long as
21:49
it's like presented in a way that won't intimidate them, I
21:53
feel like they're open to try it.
21:55
So yeah, like I'm really excited for for for the matcha market
21:59
here. Like, yeah, going back to the
22:02
brand that I'm putting up is that I wanted it to be a mix of
22:06
traditional and contemporary, just because I still wanted
22:11
rooted in the Rosenke practice that you appreciate every single
22:15
detail. You kind of take in the moment,
22:19
you enjoy the silence. So I wanted to highlight that,
22:23
but also not like intimidate other people who have never gone
22:28
through like a tea ceremony practice before or at least like
22:31
a tea ceremony in general. So that's what I want.
22:34
I want to do. I actually really look up to JEV
22:37
of MTCH because I'm like, yes, that's like a perfect balance.
22:42
Like when you enter his shop, which I've never been to yet
22:44
everything that I'm hearing is that no matter what your level
22:48
is when it comes to your matcha exposure, you'll have enjoy
22:51
something there. And I think that's really great
22:53
because it's like not just helping people be educated, but,
22:57
you know, they won't feel alienated or they won't feel,
23:00
like out of place. So yeah, I really hope that it's
23:04
a. Really well designed, well
23:06
rehearsed experience. Ryan and I went there a couple.
23:09
Times you can really capture anyone from anywhere in their
23:12
consumer journey in matcha so that.
23:15
That was really like. Yeah, yeah.
23:18
Because let's say, let's say a group of friends enter and like,
23:21
what if you're the only one who likes drinking koicha?
23:25
I mean, what, what are the other people going to drink?
23:27
Right. But when you enter a place like
23:28
MPCH, like they can find something, even if it's, say, a
23:32
dessert. So it's great.
23:35
It's very accessible. It's not intimidating.
23:39
So that's, that's something that I want to see here in the
23:41
Philippines. And yeah, hopefully in the next
23:45
year or two there'll be more cafes here that focus on matcha.
23:49
Yeah, and something I think MTCH does really well is they care a
23:54
lot about the quality of both ends is a place that specializes
23:58
in specialty mixed drinks. I feel like the usicha there is
24:02
kind of not good sometimes in a lot of cafes.
24:05
And then so like as you work your way up the ladder, you try
24:08
the usicha. It's like, well, I don't like
24:09
this. Probably not using very good
24:11
matcha. Yeah.
24:13
Or the other way to like a special or like a really
24:16
specialty place. It's really more traditional,
24:19
more everything right, like might water down the mixed
24:22
drinks. So it's that spectrum is really
24:26
rare I've noticed. That's what I try to do with my
24:29
with my pop ups like because a lot of people, they get turned
24:32
off with drinking usucha just because let's say they try
24:36
drinking their latte grade matcha on its own and of course
24:40
it's going to be astringent. Of course it's going to be
24:42
bitter. There won't be sweetness there
24:45
sometimes. So they get really turned off.
24:47
They'd be like, no, I don't like drinking it on its own.
24:49
This is great. That's why I like mixing it with
24:53
milk and sugar. So I always tell them to like,
24:57
don't let that stop you. Like for sure there is something
25:01
that you will try that will change your mind.
25:03
So that's what I do like I, I, when I do pop ups, I actually
25:06
bring different kinds of matcha for Osucha and then I ask them
25:11
for their preference. I let them smell it.
25:14
I kind of let them like, you know, play around with the tin
25:16
and see what they what they like to try.
25:19
So sometimes they ask me what the flavor notes are so at least
25:23
it doesn't come as a shock. So that's how I try to encourage
25:28
people to order something that they've never really tried
25:33
before, because most of the people here would really geared
25:36
towards the lattes, yeah. I think in most of the world
25:39
too, even Jeb was saying at MTCH it's like 70% of their business
25:44
is still in mixed drinks. Yeah, yeah.
25:47
So I think that's just where most consumers are at, which is
25:50
good. It's a good thing you have to
25:51
everyone. Yeah, I start somewhere.
25:53
Yeah, because at coffee, the coffee industry also started
25:57
that way. Like I would always say like,
25:59
don't be discouraged because a lot of us started with like a
26:02
really sweet vanilla latte before we transition to like
26:05
being able to drink like an Americano on its own.
26:10
So it's it's really like a journey.
26:13
Yeah, and you get a specialty coffee scene.
26:16
Azong Jun and I took our first trip to Manila in the
26:18
Philippines in 2018, and we were trying to find cafes to work out
26:23
of specialty coffee. We were like really into that.
26:26
And we found one really good one in Makati.
26:30
And maybe there were others, but we had trouble finding them.
26:33
And then we were just back two years ago, like boom, wow,
26:37
everywhere. Like the the speed of that in
26:41
the past four years, like, and it's crazy.
26:44
Same in China, same in even Bangkok, like all of like a lot
26:48
of these places, just the specialty coffee scene has gone
26:51
from niche to pretty mainstream. And I bet the curve on matcha.
26:56
I hope it looks the same. I know.
26:58
I really hope it goes the same for matcha.
27:00
It might take like a year or two years, but definitely I feel
27:04
like the boom is going to happen.
27:06
It's happening. So yeah.
27:08
But I understand about the specialty matcha.
27:10
It's crazy. Like before, we will only get to
27:13
visit one or two cafes that we would like.
27:16
And then now wherever we go, may it be let's say Kids in City or
27:20
Passing or Makati, we'll always find a specialty coffee shop.
27:24
It's not so hard to find anymore.
27:25
So yeah, so when you guys come back, there's so many things to
27:28
try. Like, can't wait, Yeah.
27:32
What does the current landscape look like?
27:35
For matcha. Larger coffee for matcha.
27:38
Cafe No for matcha. Well, right now there's a lot of
27:42
brands that are coming up. Some of them are like actual
27:45
spaces, meaning they have like a cafe.
27:49
So a lot of it have been opening in Manila like in in one St.
27:53
alone, let's say I know in Cajun City, 2 have opened in the past
27:57
few months. And then I would see also places
28:02
in Davao. So that's like a province, Davao
28:04
and Pampanga and Cebu, they would open up specialty matcha
28:10
places. So there's a handful already who
28:14
have physical spaces. Then there's a lot more of
28:18
people selling matcha under their own brand.
28:22
So now, like when I started posting on my Instagram, like I
28:26
feel like I discover a lot of them more like, because they
28:30
either like show up on my, my explore page or something, or
28:35
like their ads pop up in my feed.
28:37
Like just this week, I think I saw three people who launched
28:40
their own matcha brands in the recent months.
28:43
So those people don't really have their own space yet.
28:47
So what they do is they sell their matcha either via
28:51
e-commerce or in Manila. Bazaars are a big thing.
28:56
So these are Christmas bazaars where you sell like small
28:59
businesses can sell their their merchandise.
29:02
So there are a few brands who also show up there and then some
29:07
do consignment. So there's a lot of deli shops
29:10
here, let's say groceries, high end groceries.
29:15
They would have matcha now from local brands to take private
29:19
labeled stuff. Yeah, interesting.
29:22
It's really growing really, really fast.
29:24
Even with people who own coffee shops, like my husband and his
29:28
siblings, they also see the the growth of people ordering
29:33
matcha. So at first what I noticed with
29:37
specialty coffee shops is that they don't really invest in
29:39
their matcha lineup that much. So there are still specialty
29:43
coffee shops in Manila that just serve matcha to kind of like
29:50
satisfy the market a little bit. But it doesn't mean that they
29:52
have the same level as like same, same quality as their
29:56
coffee. It's just like satisfy the
29:59
crowd, right? There are still a few of those,
30:02
but so many people are now realizing that, hey, we need to
30:06
like take it seriously. We really have to have a proper
30:09
matcha menu because so many people order them already or
30:12
like look for it like, yeah, even here in Subic, it all
30:16
started as like matcha lattes only.
30:21
So when we tried serving sucha, like having guest matcha and
30:24
serving sucha, not a lot of people were interested.
30:28
But when we kind of introduce a menu that's not just a simple
30:33
matcha latte, people were really interested in trying and they
30:37
would order and try different things.
30:39
So I feel like, OK, it's like, it's really like coffee.
30:43
They want variety. Now they they're not just
30:46
satisfied with just a vanilla, not vanilla latte, but they're
30:49
not just satisfied with like a matcha latte.
30:52
They're willing to explore and try different things.
30:57
So yeah, now I'm seeing a lot of coffee shops investing in their
31:02
matcha and they're sometimes realizing that they now serve
31:06
more matcha sometimes than coffee.
31:09
At least I have a client that's like that.
31:11
They started as a coffee shop. I have two clients.
31:15
I have two clients that they started as a coffee shop, solely
31:18
coffee. And then eventually people were
31:21
looking for matcha. They started serving matcha and
31:24
then now they tell me that's their top selling drink.
31:26
It's not the coffee anymore. So I'm like, OK, OK, that's,
31:30
that's good to hear. I mean, that's really good to
31:33
hear because you'll see, you'll see the growth.
31:35
But also from a consumer's perspective, I feel like a lot
31:39
of people prefer making their matcha at home just because I
31:44
feel like they're not as satisfied with the ratios that
31:48
certain places offer. So even if they're like a matcha
31:51
centric cafe or a specialty coffee shop, I feel like most of
31:57
the matchas are not as potent or as strong as like home Brewers
32:01
would like it to be. And that includes me.
32:04
Like, I really like my matcha straw.
32:05
I don't want to just drink like a Milky drink.
32:09
Yeah. So I want to be able to enjoy
32:12
the flavors of matcha and yet the creamy milk based drink,
32:15
Right. So I think that's where all of
32:19
these new establishments need to find the balance, Like they
32:24
really should find the right ratio so that they can also
32:28
capture the people who prefer drinks that are stronger and I
32:32
guess more much a flavor. Absolutely.
32:34
Options like have the diversity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:38
BCH or Capture One? There's there's two cafes in the
32:43
Philippines that offer additional doses, right?
32:46
So if you want like an extra strong matcha, but only two
32:50
people offer that for now. So imagine all the other cafes
32:55
who already serve matcha, they don't have it on their menu yet.
32:59
So I feel like they should, yeah.
33:03
Be a default they should do like a single espresso, double
33:06
espresso kind of concept. Exactly.
33:08
There's no transition so well. Now you can order an extra shot.
33:13
You can do as like as many as four shots in your drink, so I
33:17
feel like you can do that with Matcha 2 for people who just
33:20
want to enjoy one but really strong drink.
33:23
What are the standard doses that you see like what are the ranges
33:26
of recipes and then how have you formulated all of your drinks
33:31
and like what how do you think about dosing or whisking ratios
33:34
and all of that? Because for now, a lot of the
33:38
cafes that I know would usually use 2 brass for a 12 ounce
33:44
drink. Like I think some cafes even do
33:47
like 2G or 3 grams for a 16 oz drink.
33:49
And I find that too little. And to be honest, I feel like
33:54
it's because that's what's available on the Internet.
33:57
Also like when you look for matcha recipes, it would be like
34:00
a masucha recipe that would pop up.
34:03
Like 2G of matcha is considered one serving.
34:07
So I feel like they just take that information and like run.
34:11
So yeah, so even my friends who started drinking matcha, they
34:17
would always, they would always ask me like, hey, mine kind of
34:20
tastes bland or doesn't taste as good.
34:22
And then I asked them about their ratios and it's always
34:25
just a 2G. So with the with the recipes
34:28
that I use for the pop ups, it really is from my personal
34:33
preference or my husband because we're the only like we, we, he's
34:38
the only one who gets to try my drinks before I serve them to
34:41
the public. So.
34:43
If it can. Pass yeah, if it doesn't pass
34:47
his standards, like we won't do it.
34:49
And yeah, I make sure that it's my personal preference because I
34:53
also, I'm not confident to serve something that I don't like
34:57
myself. So during that time when I was
34:59
developing the recipe, I would start at 4G for a 12 ounce cup.
35:04
So I would do 4G at first. I think I started at 5:00 and
35:09
then it was too strong. So we did 4, at least for the
35:12
match that I'm currently using. And then, yeah, I just make sure
35:17
that it would fit like a 12 ounce cup.
35:19
But a lot of people are now asking for a bigger size.
35:24
But the concern is if if you go bigger, you add more matcha.
35:29
So to me it's like around 6 grams for a 16 oz cup or more
35:33
even. And that would of course
35:37
increase the costs because I'm. Sorry, I mean too.
35:41
Yeah, a lot of caffeine. So I always this, I always tell
35:44
them that when I serve you 4G of matcha, consider that as like a
35:48
double shot already because it's like you drinking 2 two cups of
35:52
Fosucha and it's, it can, it can get really intense.
35:56
And then if I serve like a six gram latte, that's like triple
35:59
shot and it's going to keep you up for a while because it
36:02
doesn't have like that curve, right?
36:04
You don't crash. You're just like awake and focus
36:06
the whole time. So, so that's what I do because
36:10
yeah, a lot of the things that I hear is that, you know, they
36:13
don't, they don't like the flavors just because they don't
36:17
taste the matcha. Like most of the time the milk
36:20
overpowers it just because the ratio is off or like they don't
36:24
use the right milk. So, oh, that's one of the things
36:27
that I also learned when I was doing all of these pop ups is
36:30
that I tried different milks and sometimes I, I realized that
36:35
when the fat content of the milk is too high, it really just
36:40
covers everything. You won't taste so much at all,
36:43
even if you put 6g. So it will just taste like milk.
36:48
So there's a lot of experimentation, but I feel like
36:51
I didn't really deep dive yet. Like it was just me
36:54
experimenting and then I found something that worked and then
36:57
that's what I served. Like I kind of got lucky.
37:01
How do you do the base? Do you hot whisk?
37:04
How do you do the ratio for the actual whisking base?
37:08
Like what's what's the? Do you have a standard recipe?
37:11
Yes, yes. So what I do is I always mix it
37:14
with 50 grams of water, so 4G of matcha to 50 grams of water and
37:21
then I always do 75°C. Some cafes offer like cold
37:29
whisking method but to me I really don't believe in it
37:32
because I feel like I need to introduce heat so that I can
37:36
bring out all the flavors of the matcha or else again it'll
37:39
disappear in the milk. Then Filipinos like things
37:43
sweet, so my sweetener is roughly like at 20 grams.
37:47
Some people ask for more so that's let's say just a simple
37:50
syrup or like a flavored syrup. I'll do like 2025 depending on
37:57
the customer and then I'll fill up the rest with milk.
38:02
But my milk would usually just be 110 to 120 grams.
38:08
Wow, it's a very concentrated beverage.
38:11
Yeah. OK.
38:13
And then what I realize or what I see during my pop up is that
38:18
they really, really appreciate the fact that they can see how
38:21
green it is and then when they drink it, they can really taste
38:24
the matcha. So even if we do like flavored
38:28
matcha lattes, they can still taste it without it being over
38:32
overpowering. Yeah, I think MTCH uses similar
38:36
ratios. It's like they're very
38:38
concentrated beverages and you really taste it.
38:42
And also one of the things that I do is that when someone I, I
38:46
usually serve two kinds of matcha I have, I always have two
38:49
kinds of matcha powders with me when I do my pop ups.
38:52
So 1 is a stone milled matcha that I use for plain matcha
38:58
lattes. So that when people ask for a
39:01
matcha latte with or without sugar, I know that they'll enjoy
39:05
the flavors. And then I get that my second
39:08
matcha, which I use for all my flavored drinks is a ball milled
39:11
matcha. And then that one's a little
39:13
more bitter. There's a little more boldness
39:16
to it because I feel like I need that kind of matcha so that it
39:22
will translate to my to my flavored drinks and it won't get
39:26
lost. So that's one of the things that
39:28
I do. I don't use just one matcha for
39:31
all the drinks. And to think, if I had the
39:32
space, if I had the time, I would probably have different
39:36
kinds of matcha per drink. Yeah.
39:38
But like, right now we're like, I only do the pop ups with my
39:42
husband or with my sister-in-law.
39:43
And we're like three people Max. And that's like, not enough
39:48
hands. Well, that's way better than
39:50
what most people do. I mean, even having two it's
39:53
it's a rare sight for a cafe program too.
39:57
Yeah, yeah, that's what I know. What do you spend like?
40:00
So we're developing much equipment and trying to optimize
40:04
workflows. Like where do you spend the most
40:06
time in the preparation step? Like if there's anything that
40:10
could be automated away or something that we could design
40:15
certain features for to solve problems like.
40:19
Where? Where would be the low hanging
40:20
fruit as you see it? I think the one that takes the
40:22
most time is sifting the matcha and whisking it.
40:25
Like to me I've tried pre sifting my matcha before a pop
40:30
up but let's say sifting 500 grams of matcha the day before
40:34
is like too stressful for me and then only to find out that the
40:38
next day they're going to get a little clumpy.
40:41
So I, I shifted from pre sifting my matcha to just sifting it on
40:46
the spot. And that takes time for me.
40:49
That takes time. Even if I, I, I receive sift
40:54
from, is it Miseco, the one from Malaysia?
41:00
It's a brand from Malaysia. So their sift is slightly bigger
41:03
than the usual sift. So that one helped in a sense
41:06
that when I put like 4 or 8 grams of matcha in it, it won't
41:09
like explode when I try to sift it.
41:12
So yeah, that's one thing. I feel like sifting takes a lot
41:16
of time. And then the whisking, just
41:19
because there are times that I would whisk one or two servings
41:23
in one bowl and it kind of takes a while for me to get all the
41:27
much incorporated with the water.
41:29
So yeah. But everything else that he put
41:32
in, the syrups and the milks and the ice, like my husband, and he
41:37
has a system for it. It's really smooth.
41:39
But then I feel like sometimes he does more than I do, but it
41:44
takes time just because I have those like, little roadblocks.
41:47
So yeah, it would be the sifting in the whisking, I think.
41:50
The dosing too, I found even in like my own preparation, like
41:54
the dealing with dry matcha powder is so like so messy.
42:00
It's so. Messy.
42:01
So messy it's hard to wait. Gets everywhere.
42:04
You can't have any water near it like it's the.
42:09
I like I would notice that if a certain place where I do my pop
42:13
ups is kind of humid, it makes it worse.
42:15
Like I feel like my matcha sticks to all my utensils when
42:19
the place is humid. So that's one thing Also.
42:23
So sometimes when I'm doing my setup, I'd be like, oh, it's a
42:26
little humid in this place. I feel like I should, you know,
42:30
clean my utensils once in a while or else it's all like
42:33
super green because it clings to it because I'll notice.
42:36
It it's good to know. It's humid here, but there are
42:39
some spaces when it's indoors that it's extra humid.
42:44
So the matcha powder gets really, really like staticky and
42:48
would like stick to all my stuff.
42:50
And you're right, those say, ah, another one is the scale 'cause
42:54
I I use a scale, I think it's Timamor.
42:58
So I have two. The other one is a newer version
43:01
and I didn't realize that it doesn't it it's not as accurate
43:06
as it gets older. Does that make sense?
43:08
I feel like when I do it drips when yeah, it drips.
43:11
Like when I use my new way, my new scale, it's more accurate.
43:15
I'd be like when I use my old scale, I would need to do like 2
43:19
scoops. So how long have I have I been
43:22
dosing it wrong? Like I would have those
43:23
thoughts. So I would have those thoughts
43:25
because sometimes like the slightest difference also
43:28
matter, right? Like.
43:29
Yeah, totally does so. Yeah, I guess half a gram is
43:33
huge when you're talking about matcha.
43:36
Exactly. So yeah, I guess all of those
43:38
things before you pour out the matcha, it's the dosing, the
43:42
sifting and the whisking, which kind of means all the.
43:49
Whole process. The whole process of like
43:51
handling matcha, that's the hardest part, yeah.
43:55
How we can definitely relate to all those problems and we're not
43:58
even, we're not even pop up operators.
44:00
It's just in our like testing. How future products can need
44:04
some headaches? Yes, it would be really, really
44:07
helpful. And you're right.
44:10
Like, I've seen your bowl, but I don't have it yet, so I'm gonna
44:15
get one soon. We'll send one to you.
44:17
We'll send one to you. Thank you.
44:20
That's our pleasure. Because I really like the idea
44:23
that you streamlined it for coffee, coffee shop use, because
44:28
they're already like using like traditional tools, but like it's
44:33
not as efficient. And I really appreciate like as
44:37
simple as like a Katakuchi or like a spouted bowl.
44:42
It's already super helpful. So yeah, I look forward to more
44:45
products that you guys will develop that will definitely
44:48
help in like serving Matcha in a commercial way.
44:53
Yeah, thanks. That's our goal.
44:56
Yeah, even this the the mills, right?
44:59
Like my goal is to have a mill here in the Philippines, but I
45:04
feel like an Ishi Uzu is too big an investment to have here.
45:10
And when I heard Jeff's interview with you guys and he
45:13
said he doesn't want to do it again, I'm.
45:15
Like, oh, he's like a similar thought.
45:19
I was like, oh wow, interesting. Right.
45:22
Like this. I got inspired by Mark in Uweka.
45:26
He started with two and then he now has four meals and I'm like,
45:30
dude, how does he get to do it? He's so far from Japan.
45:33
What if something breaks? Like who fix?
45:36
It and it's not cheap. So my goal was to like
45:41
eventually have one in the Philippines, but then Oh no,
45:44
what about like the after sales care?
45:47
What about like if something happens to it, I wouldn't know
45:50
how to deal with it yet. So it might be too much.
45:54
So I look forward to your meal like and I hope like you get to
45:58
launch it soon. The timelines just keep getting
46:02
delayed and delayed and but hopefully by end of January,
46:06
beginning of February ish nice, we will have something
46:10
mechanically that we are finally happy with.
46:14
That's exciting. That's not too far.
46:16
Not too far if it all works, it's mechanically so different
46:20
than a coffee grinder because they you have so much pressure
46:24
and just even like the motor requirements in this type of
46:26
thing, it's just have to keep reengineering.
46:29
The belt comes off, something breaks, it's like.
46:33
So it's a lot of iteration. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
46:36
I can just imagine. I can just imagine.
46:39
As part of the we know it. Needs to really last part of
46:42
the. Fun.
46:45
It'll all be worth it. It's like it's crazy.
46:47
It'll all be worth it when it's finally out and people are
46:50
actually using it already. Yeah, absolutely.
46:55
It'll be a very exciting day. All right, so just to wrap up
47:00
one last question. I wanted to ask you a little bit
47:03
more about the brand you were launching and like when and when
47:06
it is and what it is and whatever information you can
47:10
share about. Yeah, sure.
47:11
So the brand that we're launching is actually called
47:16
Kamai. So Kamai is spelled as KAMAI.
47:22
So it was derived from the word Kamaimasu from Japan, which
47:27
means care. And then when you translate,
47:32
when it's in Filipino, combine means hand.
47:35
So yeah. So we wanted to, it was like a
47:39
way for us to to to show the care that goes into your tea
47:45
from like harvesting from Japan to like serving it to you as a
47:50
guest. So we wanted to incorporate
47:53
that. My goal for this is to have I
47:58
have three faces for it. So the first place will be like
48:00
an ecommerce site. So it will start with the
48:04
created matcha first from different well known brands from
48:08
Japan. And then eventually I will be
48:10
launching my own brand of matcha.
48:13
And then after that is to help share really good matcha to
48:18
other cafes too. So eventually supplying to these
48:21
cafes like B2B. And my third phase, which I'm
48:24
most nervous about, is to have our own space.
48:27
Yeah, my vision for it is that it will be like a slow bar so
48:33
people can come in, enjoy their time for themselves or with
48:36
their friends. It won't be as rushed as other
48:39
cafes. And yeah, ideally we get to
48:42
serve matcha to everyone who doesn't matter what their
48:46
background is, doesn't matter what their exposure to matcha is
48:50
or Japanese teas in general, because we really, we don't want
48:54
to just focus on matcha. Actually, we wanted to serve
48:56
Japanese teas, other Japanese teas as well, because I guess a
49:00
part of the learning is that when we traveled to Japan and
49:03
did all of these farm tours, we were also able to try other
49:07
Japanese teas. That kind of blew our minds.
49:09
So we wanted that same experience for other people too.
49:14
So yeah, I'm a little nervous because this is like, no
49:17
kidding, Three years in the making, kept getting pushed back
49:22
and pushed back and pushed back. But yeah, 2025 is the year.
49:27
So we're hopefully launching it soon.
49:30
It's awesome. I love the concept of a slow
49:32
bar. This is it's very exciting
49:36
because it's, you know, it's one step less commitment than a tea
49:39
ceremony, but like one step more focused than just quick grab and
49:44
go. So it's like the perfect to meet
49:46
in the middle of this kind of pour over reflection moment.
49:51
You're like, there's some waiting, there's some dialogue
49:54
like it's I love this concept. Yeah, because I really wanted to
49:58
have people experience a peace ceremony without having to step
50:01
into a tatami room. It's a little more relaxed in
50:04
that sense. But you have all the principles
50:06
of the child of practice there, like the tranquility, purity,
50:10
respect. So I wanted them all to feel
50:12
that when they enter the space. And yeah, so I'm really excited.
50:17
Love the concept and good luck as you launch through each of
50:20
those phases. And we can't wait to try it in
50:23
each phase. Yeah.
50:24
Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on.
50:27
Thank you for having me and I really hope that when you visit
50:30
the Philippines, we'll get to see each other and hopefully for
50:33
sure that space has been launched so I can invite you
50:35
over that. Would be awesome.
50:38
Thank you. Thank you.
50:41
Thank you. All right.
50:42
I think that's all we have time for.
50:44
So if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with
50:47
a friend or giving us five stars on whatever platform you're
50:50
listening to. It really helps us and other
50:53
people discovering this podcast too.
50:55
So thanks so much for listening and we'll see you in the future.
50:58
Take care. Thanks.
51:00
Thank you.