Latest / Glovisor Podcast / Ep. 56: Broadway Is a Business of Risk: Sue Gilad on Turning Ideas Into Hits (In Fine Company)

Transcript

Ep. 56: Broadway Is a Business of Risk: Sue Gilad on Turning Ideas Into Hits (In Fine Company) · Glovisor Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Behind every Broadway hit is a business machine, and behind
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: the curtain is the blueprint entrepreneurs never get to see.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Glowvisor podcast, where we explore business growth, communication,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: and personal development through real conversations with people that make
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: an impact. Our guest is a Grammy and five-time Tony
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Award-winning Broadway producer and co-founder of Infine Company. For more
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: than two decades, she's helped bring shows like Moulin Rouge!
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: The Musical, Jagged Little Pill, and Angels in America from
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: unproven ideas on paper to celebrated Broadway hits. Globalizer welcomes
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Sue Gillott.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Hey, Joe. I want to take you with me everywhere
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: I go. That's so lovely. Hi, I'm so happy to
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: be here.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Looking forward to it. All right, so Sue, let's begin.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Most people get to see the performance. We're all sitting
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: here looking at these amazing shows, but you get to
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: see the business side of it. What does producing a
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Broadway show actually look like behind a curtain?
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Well, I often say, Joe, that Broadway producing is really
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: entrepreneurship in one of the craziest businesses imaginable because we're
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: assessing the risk, we're building the teams, we're raising the capital,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: we're marketing a product, we're managing enormous personalities. And then
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: we have to respond to failure. And hopefully we create
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: something that people are willing to leave their homes and
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: pay a lot of money to experience. So each show
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: is its own entrepreneurial venture. The success of one show
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: will not necessarily assume or beget the success of another.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: And really the odds are against us in theater. Because
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: 80% of the shows that we produce that make it
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: to Broadway, statistically, 80% of them won't make their money
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: back while they're on Broadway. So you really have to
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: have a long-tailed longevity point of view. So we know
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: that Broadway will be the stamp of approval as seen
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: on Broadway. And then off we go on our North
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: American tour. Off we go to Australia, to the West
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: End in London. Off we go to the Netherlands, Germany, Japan, Australia. Korea,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: our show, The Outsiders, will have its very first international
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: production in Korea in 2027, in the summer. So everything
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: that we have to do is bootstrapping with no foreknowledge
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: that it might actually work. But then if our audiences
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: like it, then we have to focus on it for
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: a very long time as it rolls out to the
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: other 8 billion people in the world. Wow.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: You know, what blows my mind is that these shows
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: start with these unproven ideas. So how did you evaluate
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: these raw ideas into becoming these hits?
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: So for musicals in particular, I gravitate towards musicals, Joe,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: or plays that operate like musicals. And that means you're
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: going to have a very long development period because it's
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: collaborative art form. Which, by the way, in this age
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: of AI, I think we're so proudly analog. I think
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: we're going to save civilization with theater because you have...
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: to collaborate to do it. So musicals, because you have
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: the book writer, the lyricist, the composer, the director, the choreographer,
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: the costume designer, sets, projections, everyone coming and creating that
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: same work of art together, it takes a tremendous amount
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: of time. So the average Broadway show will be anywhere
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: between five and 10 years to get to Broadway. So
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: the first thing that I look for is an evergreen
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: title and an evergreen topic. So you won't see me
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: producing a show anytime soon that is about today's political climate.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Maybe it will be political issues that continue to challenge
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: us over time. For example, last night we had a
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: group at Buena Vista Social Club on Broadway, and this
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: is a beautiful show that toggles between 1950 Cuba and
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: 1990s Cuba and deals with when the political atmosphere becomes
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: personal and affects the person. But it walks a very
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: fine line not talking about or making a judgment about
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: what's happening in politics. Rather, you learn to care about
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: this from following one person's story. So I'm going to
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: look for stories that are evergreen, like Moulin Rouge, like
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: The Outsiders, like Purple Rain that we have coming to
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  Speaker 2: Broadway in 2027, and stories that people care about generationally.
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  Speaker 2: Because I know it's not just about getting to Broadway
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  Speaker 2: in these five to ten years. It's about what happens
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  Speaker 2: in the five, ten years. 20 years following as the
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: rest of the world gets to discover us as well.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Now, how many stories do you get to read through
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: to really identify those shows that you want to pursue?
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Did you write a play? Is that what you're telling me?
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: So we, first of all, we're very privileged that we
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: get pitched a lot. So, and we have readers who
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: will read scripts for us because it's just too many.
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  Speaker 2: And we really do try. Somebody on our team tries
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: to read absolutely everything. And then also because Broadway is
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: an expensive notion, we jump on shows and co-produce and
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: we have other co-producers that will work with us so
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: that it's never just one person. So we'll go to
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: developmental readings and developmental workshops. And that can be really
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: exciting because if Gloria Estefan wrote a musical, she did.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: We'll be sitting in the room and she's watching it
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: as well. And you're seeing it, no sets, no costumes,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: no magic, no lights, just simply the best actors in
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  Speaker 2: the world standing at music stands and reading through and
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: singing through the script. And it's our job to identify,
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  Speaker 2: is there enough of a juicy story here? Does it
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: do all the highs and all the lows and give
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: you catharsis? And by the end, maybe you're sobbing or
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: maybe you're screaming with laughter, hopefully both. Is this a
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: show that I'll be able to invest the next five
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: to 10 years in and champion it everywhere I go
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: so that it gets itself to Broadway and then out
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: into the hinterlands? So when we're not putting up a
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: show right this moment, we are going to as many
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: developmental readings and workshops as possible. And that happens over
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: time in the life of a show because you want
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: to make sure you have an audience. We never know
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: if a show is going to work. Until there's an audience.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: So we usually do an out-of-town tryout in a city
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: that mirrors New York. So The Outsiders started in La Jolla, California,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: the La Jolla Playhouse. Moulin Rouge started in Boston at
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: the Emerson Colonial. Purple Rain, of course, Minneapolis, Prince's hometown,
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: where they were like, you know, it was like a
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: rock concert. It was amazing. So our director and our choreographers,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: they're paying attention to what's going on on stage. So
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: are we, but I'm paying more attention to my audience.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: What I'm looking for, Joe, is like that moment when
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: you lean in and you're just mesmerized by what's happening
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: on stage. What I'm also looking for, more importantly, in
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: early development is like, where are people kind of like
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: fumbling for their phones? Like, oh, no, I'm not supposed
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: to be on my phone because I'm watching a show,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: but I'm restless and looking at the other audience members.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: And those are the moments that I know, great, we're
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: going to go back and review that with the creatives.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: What's interesting to me personally is how do you have
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: more bandwidth than the rest of us? Because as a producer,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: how many productions are you working on at one time?
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: So this is the moment that I tell you that
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: I actually am obsessed. I have been a theater kid
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: since birth. My big sister went to dance class, so
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: I went to dance class. But I don't know if
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: you know this, Joe, you're not supposed to talk in
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: dance class. So obviously that was a terrible place for me.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: And they said, loudmouth, go next door to the musical
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: theater kids. They never shut up. And I really, I
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: loved that environment. I was never very good at the acting,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: singing or dancing, but I was, I was transfixed by the,
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: all of us coming together as strangers and then making
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: this piece where everyone is equally important. The star. the
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: stage manager, the third tree from the left. That was
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: usually me. And I was on stage as an actor
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: for quite a long time, making friends with people who
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: had real talent. And then luckily, super lucky, after years
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: of doing that, some of my friends said, look, you're
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: the biggest theater fan we've ever met, Sue. I wrote
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: this thing. how do you feel about producing it? And
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  Speaker 2: I was like, yay, of course I'll produce it. What
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: does that mean? What do I need to do? And
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  Speaker 2: that's how it happened. And so, well, you know, you
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: need to find the theater and pick the director and
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: raise the funds and sell the tickets and never shut
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: up about it. And I thought I would pay money
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: to do this. So for me, nothing that I do
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: occurs as work, but also my kids know if they
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: want to find me, they'll find me in a theater.
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  Speaker 1: Now, you brought up raising funds. How difficult is it
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: to raise funds for these new startup musicals?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's as hard as the show is a fit
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: for you. So I always know, and this is my
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: cheat sheet, if I am having challenges raising the funds
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  Speaker 2: for a show, I need to give a hard look
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: at that show. Maybe, however wonderful it is, however good
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  Speaker 2: it looks on paper. Maybe it's not my show. Maybe
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  Speaker 2: it's not the show that resonates with me. And that's
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: where the art comes into play. This is where it's
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  Speaker 2: so subjective, Joe, that people in grown-up business, business that
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: actually its job is to make money, real estate, finance,
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  Speaker 2: they are baffled by theater. Because theater, at its core,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: is art. And art is subjective. And you can have one...
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  Speaker 2: You are going to love one show. And you're going
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: to recommend to your audience, see the show. And then
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: you're going to get irate podcast viewers that are like,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: I hated that. How dare you, Joe? Subjective. So... When
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: we raise funds, if I am shouting it to the
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: hinterlands and everybody is like, I am absolutely on board
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: with that show, it might not be the best show
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: in the world, but it's my show and I'm really
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: proud of it. So how we go about raising funds?
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, there are a million different ways. So
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: initially it's front money. We call it front money in
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: the business. And that means we don't even have the
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: option to produce the show yet. We need to actually
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: get the ball rolling with some contracts. So that's lawyers
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: fees and our general manager's fees. And front money is
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: considered such high risk, as in, you don't know if
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: the show will even happen, that we actually give, we
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: promise all of our producer profits down the line for
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: that amount of funds, we give those away. So if
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: we have a successful show, Joe, front money is going
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: to be very expensive for us. And then as you
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: get closer to production, once you have a workshop, once
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: you have a script, and the script has those two
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: magic words, the end, woohoo, Um, then you have something
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: a little more special. You've shown that you've put in
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: sweat equity. So the terms to the investors or the
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: producers will go down. And then by the time you
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: have like locked in a Broadway theater, as we just
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: locked in the majestic theater for purple rain, I mean,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: purple rain, uh, all the funds were invested a long
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: time ago. You can't get into that show, but usually
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: by the time you get a Broadway theater, that's when
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: you raise the bulk of the funds. Cause now you're
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: going to be looking at advertising, marketing, rehearsals, your cast,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: your costumes, all the things to make the thing, right?
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: But as you get closer to actual production and having
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: a real show, the terms become less attractive.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: So after everything you described, the chances of making any
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: money for these investors is very small. Why do they
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: keep doing it?
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I can promise you a really good opening night party.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: And sometimes people will just want to meet Josh Groban, right?
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: And that's fine. That's a good reason to invest. We
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: will equate it with alternative sleeve. We will say, okay,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: you're a family office and your recommendation is to buy
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: a Picasso. That's excellent. That's fantastic. But what about today's
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: artists that might become the next Picasso in 10, 20,
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: 50 years? So what we say with our art is
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: it's all alternative sleeve. It might become a Moulin Rouge
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: or it might never even open on Broadway. And we
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: have a fund actually because we want to mitigate the
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: risk of our investors because our track record is getting
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: better over time, I would say. And we've been so
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: fortunate with our shows. People love our shows and we're very,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: very lucky. So we just created a fund so we
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: can say, you can have exposure to these five shows
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: that we have coming down the pike. And some of
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: them have already been so successful on Broadway that we're
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: putting them out on tour. And that's where we're going
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: to put your funds in something that's as close to
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: guaranteed income as possible. Because on a tour, in effect,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: you're renting the show to each individual theater. So the
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: risk is as low as risk can be in theater.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Still high risk, but lower. So why would you invest
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: in theater? A, you're like me. You are bonkers for
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: Broadway and you just want to be close to the magic.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: You want to have an incredible night. You want to
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: be able to have access to the press before the
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: press comes out. You want to have bragging rights. You
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: want to maybe have a slight chance at a runaway
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: hit that's going to run internationally like a Moulin Rouge.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: like what we think will happen with Purple Rain. Who knows?
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: But if you need to pay rent next month, you
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: know what? Just buy a ticket in the mezzanine, cheer
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: us on, and be the person who starts the standing ovation.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: And that's good enough for me because my directive, my
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: personal feeling is to turn every kid into a theater kid,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: and I don't care how I do it.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Now, even before the first ticket is sold, how much
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: money is invested in these productions?
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: So we've seen a huge escalation in costs because of
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: really two things, supply chain and labor. So the average
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Broadway musical used to be somewhere between $ 10 million and
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: $ 20 million. You contrast that with a play, which is
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: about $ 4 million to $ 10 million. $ 10 million if it
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: has bankable stars above title. So the musical used to
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: be $ 10 million to $ 20 million. Moulin Rouge was an
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: outlier when it opened on Broadway in 2019. It was
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: a $ 28 million raise, which in today's dollars would be
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: about $ 34 million, Joe. But now what we're starting to
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: see is $ 25 to $ 30 million all in is becoming
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: the norm to go from initial option all the way
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: to opening night. Now you hope that once you open...
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: then your ticket sales and your merchandise sales will actually
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: cover your weekly costs for doing business. But you want
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: to leave a couple million contingency in there just in
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: case things go south. So what's now becoming more and
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: more common is a $ 30 million raise all in for
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: a Broadway show that's opening this coming season. And the
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: way to do it, it really does take a village.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: So we're seeing a lot more producers, general partners, co-producers,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: People who will raise parts of the funds in exchange
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: for being part of the production and maybe sitting in
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: the room while the decisions are being made and learning
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: at the feet of how I learned was being a
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: co-producer on other people's shows and going, what decisions are
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: you making today? You know, because there was no master's
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: degree in producing when I came up in the industry.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Now I think there is, which I wouldn't mind taking.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Or maybe teaching. But it's a lot of team building.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: And what I really love about it, really love, especially
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: since every conversation in the last year has been AI,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: is we are really the opposite of. You have to
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: be in the room where it happens. And honestly, a
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: lot of people who work in tech, they will come
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: to the theater as the balance for what's going on
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: in their real life, staring at a screen all day.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Now, producing a show seems to be a startup. Every
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: single project seems to be a new startup for you.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: And that's the joy. If you're ADD, if you were
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: the kid in school where, you know, your math teacher said,
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: sit down, then producing is the perfect thing for you
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: because you raise one baby and you pay attention to
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: it and you feed it and you water it. And
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: then you share it with the world. That's your Broadway opening.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: And if the world likes you and you hope they do,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Then a part of you gets to focus on selling
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: tickets and advertising and bringing new niche markets and then
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: going out on tour and then, you know, gradually expanding
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: outward like a child does. And then at the same time,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: you have one or two or seven shows in various
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: stages of development because it does take a very long
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: time to get to Broadway. So it's not only encouraged,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: but it's required in my profession to make sure you
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: have several, if not many balls that you're juggling at
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: the same time, because you never know. Because again, art, Joe,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: you never know when your show is going to pop
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: and the world is going to say it's ready. Or conversely,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: one of the theater owners will say, oh, one show
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: that was supposed to come in fell through. Are you ready?
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: What an opportunity. Listen, if that's your vibe, if you
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: thrive on bonkers madness, if you thrive on being on instability,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: I would say, and there are a lot of people
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: who do. I'm just lucky that I'm both a theater
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: kid and I really like playing games that aren't safe.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: I would say this is not safe, but in the best,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: most joyous, most self-expressed way. Because, you know, theater kids,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: until we find each other, we're a little bit lost.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: And then we find each other and all of a
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: sudden the world makes sense again. So one of the
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: initiatives we have that I'm really proud of at the outside,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you know The Outsiders, right? It's
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: a famous book. Susie Hinton wrote it, The Greasers, The Socs, Tulsa, 1967.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: And it tells the story of the haves and the have-nots, which, Joe,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: a universal story, particularly in America, particularly now. So we
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: have The Outsiders on Broadway, and it really speaks to
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: young men in particular. So we have an initiative, the
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Stay Gold Project, that brings in high school students from
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: high schools in the New York area that have never
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: seen a Broadway show, pays for their tickets so they
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: come for free. And then we have a pretty robust
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: study guide that goes along with it so that their
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: teachers can actually talk about the themes and they can
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: really make it personal for them. So one of my
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: favorite things is to stand at the base of the
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: mezzanine and watch them as they watch our epic rumble scene,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: our crazy fight scene in the rain and the mud
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: and everybody's getting bloody and it's, you have to see
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: it to believe it. But I watch them watch the
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: show and I can point out for you, Three theater
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: kids that never knew they were theater kids before. It
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: happens every single performance and it gives me chills every time.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: So I just, I want theater to be like 1%
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: as cool and 1% as funded as sports. That's all.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Conversion in live action. You get to see it right
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: then and there.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: It's special. And I will say something that technology does
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: for us that's really wonderful, Joe, is we have Hamilton
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: on Disney +. We have a show called, a beautiful
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: show called Come From Away. on Apple that you can watch.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Legally Blonde has a complete and total screen capture on YouTube.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: You can watch all of these YouTube for free. And
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: we find theater kids who are in places where they
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: don't go to the theater. They don't have a theater.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: It's not part of their culture. It's not part of
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: their family. I'm a theater kid because my mom was
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: an English teacher and she loved good stories. So she
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: would introduce me to incredible literature. I became such a bookworm.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: And then we would go to see shows that were
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: wildly inappropriate on Broadway. But again, before internet, before cell phones,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: you just walk up to the half price booth and say,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: what do you have available? So here I am seeing
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: shows at age 13 that are like, these are not
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: topics you should be watching. But I felt so safe
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: and seen in the audience as the story was unfolding
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: in front of me. I just wanted to be there forever.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Now, as a producer, what would you say is your
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: biggest challenge? Is it the team? Is it the funding,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: the strategy, the execution?
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Okay, so my biggest challenge first is when nobody cares.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: When you raise, you know, you raise your baby. Anyone
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: who has kids understands this. Don't you think your kid
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: is the most magnificent human in the world? And then
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: they don't get into the preschool of their choice or
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: some kid throws dirt at them in the playground and
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: you're like, what on earth? Well, each of my shows
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: is a baby. that I believe in 100% and that
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: important to me. And then a critic says, no, you know,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: or Reddit, people on Reddit, they see it in previews
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: and they say, here's what's horrible about this show. I
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: will say the flip side of that is we get
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of like our own focus groups information when
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: a show is in early development. and super, super theater insiders,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: kids like me, voice their opinion on the internet, sometimes
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: that will change the trajectory of the show and fix
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: it and make it better. So you guys keep chattering.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Those of you who are chattering on the internet with
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: early development, keep doing it. We need you. But first
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: and foremost, you put all your heart and all your
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: soul into it and you don't get good reviews and
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: you don't get audiences coming even once. Forget about what
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: we want is audiences coming back again. At The Outsiders,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: we call them insiders, people who come back 5, 10,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: 30 times. At Moulin Rouge, there's a famous dance called
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: the can-can. You know it, Joe. It's a knee and
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: a kick and a knee, right? So the super fans
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: at Moulin Rouge, we call them the fan fans, right?
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: They come back again and again and do the can-can
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: with us. And we love those people. But if you
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: have a show, and every producer has had this show sometimes,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: many times, where it just doesn't go. It doesn't even
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: get to Broadway. It doesn't open on Broadway. It doesn't
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: have a North American tour. It has trouble getting a
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: regional out of town tryout. That for me is devastating.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: And it's a part of our business. So the profound
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: rejection is real. And that's why I think I'm grateful
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: that I started out as an actor. And remember, I
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: mentioned not a very good actor. So I got rejected
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: all the time. So rejection to me is okay. It
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: actually gives me fuel. But you have to be ready
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: for that in our industry. It is an industry of
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: closed doors. It is an industry of no. It is
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: an industry of the deck is stacked against you artistically
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: and fiscally. So you've got to have a pretty thick
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: skin in order to stay with it.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Our whole lives, we've heard, it made it to Broadway.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: It's on Broadway. What is the process of getting on Broadway?
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question, Joe. So there are 42
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Broadway theaters. Many of them are owned by names you
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: might know, the Schuberts, Nederlanders. And then what used to
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: be Jew Jams, it was purchased by ATG, the ambassador
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: theater group, which has a huge hold in Europe. Really,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: they do both theater ownership and theater management. They do
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: it beautifully. And then you also have a few nonprofits
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: on Broadway, like Lincoln Center and The Roundabout and Manhattan
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Theater Club. So if you want your show to be
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: on Broadway, somebody of that group has to say yes
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: to you. With a show like The Outsiders, we were
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: very fortunate that Schubert's took a shine to it early on.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: So we knew in fairly early development with The Outsiders
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: that we would be in a Schubert theater and the
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: theater we got, and this is another concern because a
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Broadway theater, the criteria is you have to have at
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: least 500 seats. But there are some theaters that have 1,200 seats, 1,700 seats, 1,900 seats.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: So you have to know what story am I telling
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: and what's the scope. So The Outsiders, which is a
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: very intimate Very beautiful, very personal story. We wanted a 1,000-seat theater.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: So you don't just need a theater. You need the
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: right theater, and we got the right theater with the Jacobs.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Likewise for Buena Vista Social Club, which lives next door
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: to the Jacobs Theater at the Schoenfeld. Same size house,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: same scope of storytelling. But with Purple Rain, a big,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: big story, a big, big motorcycle, a big, big water scene.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Get ready. That's going to be in the Majestic Theater,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: almost 1,700 seats. So you want to make sure that
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: you have relationships. And again, another clue, if you're having
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: trouble getting a Broadway theater, maybe your show doesn't belong
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: on Broadway. Maybe you should try the West End in London.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Maybe you should try another regional production or a North
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: American tour. There are shows that go out with great
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: titles like Dirty Dancing and Flashdance and The Bodyguard that
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: are not Broadway shows. But Boy, do they like them
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: in Boise.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Now, if someone wanted to bring an idea to life,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: whether a show or a business, what's the first step
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: they should take?
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Write the thing. Please write the thing. Even if it's
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: going to be based on Metallica's music and you don't
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: have a relationship with Metallica and you don't know how
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: you're going to get the rights, write something. It's going
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: to hone your skills. Have a piece of art that
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: says the two magic. You remember the two magic words, Joe?
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: the end, right? Those are the magic words. If you
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: have that, I can't tell you how many people say,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: I'm working on an idea. I have a draft. I
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: have a treatment. We don't do treatment. You want treatment?
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Go to LA. We need a script, darling. So finish
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: your first script, whatever it is. Then pay for pizza.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: As you sit in someone's living room and have your
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: favorite people who read with expression, preferably actors, but if not,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: people like you, who can read the script and you
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: record it so you can hear the rhythm. Because reading
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: it is very, very different from hearing it. Then tweak
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: it as much as you need to. I like to
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: tell writers or ambitious writers, what got you into writing?
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Who would be your mentor if you could have your pick? Well,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: you know what? There they are waiting for you on Instagram.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: Send them a very polite, very short DM that says,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you that you
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: are my favorite writer because specific reason, specific moment in
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: specific scene in specific play. I would be honored if
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: you would consider a 15-minute Zoom with me. If you're
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: in my city, may I please take you to coffee?
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: I would love to have you as a mentor. I
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: understand that's a big ask, but you are the person
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: who inspired me to be who I am today. Worst
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: thing that happens, they ignore you, right? But the more
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: eyes on you can have on something before you share
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: it with someone who is a decision maker, the more
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: likely it is to be ever closer to production. Because,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: of course, our writers say it's a cast of 40.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: And the producers say, terrific. Can you get it down
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: to a cast of four, do you think? So you
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: want to have as much art as you can, but
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: then people who are in the industry say, look, these
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: are the producers' concerns, and if you can allay those
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: concerns before you hand this work to a producer, if
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: you can hand it producer-ready, then you're going to have
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: a much likelier chance of building a relationship with that producer.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And then maybe not this piece, because it's your first one,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: but maybe the next one you can work on together.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: So we like to develop longstanding relationships with the people
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: who are best in class because one show is not
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: your only show. You know, you could be Stephen Sondheim
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: and you could write hit after hit after hit because
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: we got a long life. So if somebody wrote the great,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: if you wrote the greatest American musical, my audience, please
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: send me a lovely, respectful, specific email that says, I
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: heard you on this podcast. This resonated with me. This
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: is what I have completed writing. Please don't send me
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: your treatment. Please don't tell me, send me act one.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: You've helped turn many scripts into hits. What's the one
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: message you want entrepreneurs to remember from today's conversation?
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: You really have to trust your gut. We've had projects
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: going south that I was like, my head said, it's
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: your responsibility to do this. You need to do this.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: And my heart was drowning. Like, no. This is not
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: your project. This is a mistake. Danger, Will Robinson. I
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: really want everyone in whatever you're doing, whatever you're entrepreneurial about,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: is it going in the right direction? There's usually at
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: least one bad apple in there. Your job is to
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: cut out that bad apple as soon as possible. And
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: if you can't cut out the bad apple, then it's
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: your time to cut and run. And we learn this
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: lesson over and over in our shows. It is the
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: rare show that is smooth sailing from day one. Sometimes
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: you need to start over with a different writing team.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: And you didn't know that in early development because, again,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: it's art. So you have to get in the room
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: together to determine, is this going in the right direction?
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: So really, in your heart of hearts, say, is this
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: my A-team? I have a producing partner, Joe. I'm really
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: fortunate that Larry and I met in 1996, I think.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: We were both rent heads. We were both doing shows.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: He was working at Disney. I was doing an off-Garway show.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: We went to go see Rent. we were just kindred spirits.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: And then when it came time to be producers, it
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: was like, this is the only person I really want
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: to hang out with and I trust with my life
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: and who's basically my family. we raised our kids together
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: and Larry is good at everything that I'm not good
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: at so he's remarkable at seeing something that is a
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: sketched out idea and saying this is the diamond in
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: the rough this is the idea that's going to be
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: universal and change people's minds and open their hearts and
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: then He'll say that my skill is as the thing
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: gets closer to development and more established, I'll say, these
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: are the elements that are missing or these are the
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: elements that need to go. So we really balance each
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: other out beautifully, but mostly we have such a great time.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: We're always laughing. If we're the only people who showed
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: up in the room for something, we're still going to
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: have a great experience. It's, you know, you celebrate your wins.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: You definitely celebrate your losses. So surround yourself with a
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: team like that. And even when things go south, because
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: statistically you, Things will get messed up. You can still
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: be proud of who you created it with and what
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: you created. That's great advice.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Now, finally, where can our audience go to explore more
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: about your work, learn more about the business of Broadway
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and stay connected?
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: OK, so first you have to see a show. If
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: I didn't make you go see a show wherever you are,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: if if you live in Dallas or Des Moines, please
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: find a local theater and go see something. It will
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: bring you joy. Don't sit on an end. Sit in
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: the middle. Turn to the people next to you. Say, hey,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: what brought you here today? Are you friends with someone?
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Did this woman on a podcast tell you you needed
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: to see theater to be a better person? So see
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: if you can get involved in theater. And each of
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: our shows has its own marketing press team. So you
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: can go online and you can literally search for Purple Rain,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Moulin Rouge, The Outsiders. We're going to start touring The
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Who's Tommy. So if you're like a Pete Townsend fan,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: you're going to love that show. Our company name is
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: In Fine Company. You can always follow me at Sugilad
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: and In Fine Company. But really, one of the things
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: that's great about being a producer is we like to
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: stay in the background and we like our beautiful actors,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: our stunning performers to be front and center and our
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: shows to be front and center. So if you want
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: to follow what I'm up to, simply follow each of
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: my shows and you'll get an idea. I'll show up
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: somewhere in there.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Now, Sue, thank you so much for pulling back the
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: curtain for us. And we really appreciate your time and
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: the value you shared.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: I like what you do, Joe. Thank you for bringing
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: so many different people to the fore. I'm learning a
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: lot from what you bring to the table. So keep
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: on keeping on. Thank you.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Thanks, everyone, for listening. If this episode inspired you, make
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: sure you share it with someone. And don't forget to
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: follow the Globalizer podcast for more conversations that make an impact.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Till the next time.