Latest / IB Unplugged / Applying Visible Learning at Kognity w/ Melanie Snow

Transcript

Applying Visible Learning at Kognity w/ Melanie Snow · IB Unplugged

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Welcome to IB Unplugged, a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators,
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that tackles your submitted questions and challenges by connecting you with
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experts and peers who share their ideas and stories from real classrooms.
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Hi everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of IB Unplugged.
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We really hope you enjoyed our previous episode with John Hattie.
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And so we decided to do something
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a little bit different than what we've done before.
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And we wanted to take some of the key principles and the ideas that we spoke
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about in Hattie's episode, and then talk about the way in which
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these ideas are actually implemented in Kognity’s platform itself.
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So today we're talking with Doctor Melanie Snow, who's part of the product team,
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and we're going to be looking into how do we take the actual pedagogy,
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the actual research and put it into reality.
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How do we make visible learning
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actually true in the actual platform that you see with Kognity itself.
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Exactly.
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I think this episode made a lot of sense for me.
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One, because when I first joined Kognity a long time ago,
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that was basically required reading when everyone first joined was
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like, you better know who John Hattie is if you're going to work in education.
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And, so it really has been a fundamental part
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of the way that the product's been designed,
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the way we talk about education within our company.
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And then I figured Melanie would be one of the best people to talk to,
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because not only is her job right now as a learning experience designer
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really deeply rooted in making these kind of pedagogical decisions
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on how the products design.
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But also this is really where her background comes in.
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Melanie was originally a high school science teacher in the United States.
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She's based in Chicago, but then she went and did her PhD, learning
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about motivation and kind of learning design and all of these things.
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And now that's really at the heart of what she's doing at Kognity.
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So great fit hearing about her background, her experiences, and really
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what her intentionality is in the way that she helps build Kognity’s product.
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We're so glad you're here.
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Let's talk about how we take this theory into practice with Doctor Melanie Snow.
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Hi, Melanie, welcome to IB Unplugged.
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Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me.
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Yeah. Of course.
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So what we want to get started with is usually when we have a teacher
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or a IB coordinator or something like that,
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we don't actually need to explain what their job is.
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However, your job is a learning experience designer, and I think there are probably
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quite a few people who are listening that don't really know what that means.
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Could you describe a little bit about what your role is
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and what it looks like in your day to day?
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Sure.
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So what I do as a learning experience designer is that,
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I help design, develop and implement,
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different learning experiences on our Kognity platform.
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And, that can look like, a lesson design for a student
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that can also look like teacher support materials for teachers.
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And, our high school science side,
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committees platform.
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Sorry.
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We design teacher support tools like,
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slide decks, worksheets, different performance
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tasks and things like that for students to do in the classroom.
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I also participate in a lot of discussions around the user interface design,
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in terms of what does supporting
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learning look like on a digital platform.
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Nice one.
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So obviously,
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Melanie, we want to talk a little bit about like how you apply visible learning
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or going from that research to reality and how you kind of get that in
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into Kognity’s platform.
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And I know you've just, been able to see that episode with John Hattie
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and kind of learn about that discussion and that sort of thing.
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I know you're applying a lot of those principles
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in the actual design of what you do within Kognity’s platform anyway.
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But thinking back on that conversation from John Hattie,
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what kind of resonated with you the most as, yeah, I'm all about that.
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What kind of stuck with you? I will say that,
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Hattie talked about this idea of,
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there's just too much stuff to learn.
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And I think traditionally in classrooms,
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one of the things that we've tried to do is focus on like, if students are going
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to learn chemistry, for example, we've got to get them all of this stuff.
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And, in terms of moving away from that,
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I know, here in the US, we've adopted next generation science standards
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and that has sort of retold what is important in the classroom to learn.
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And it really takes away sort of that, that breadth and going
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more into depth, which was something that, Hattie was talking about.
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And, you know, we've we found that students
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really love to dig deep into an idea rather than just learn all the ideas.
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And so that's something that really resonated with me,
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was when Hattie was talking about that,
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what do you remember the most about your classroom experiences?
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And it is those moments where you really just kind of like,
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went off the rails and you, like, dug into a topic rather than like, oh,
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I learned every single thing there is to know about elements.
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And I think also something else that resonated with me
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was that connected to this idea of like going deep in the subject
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is the idea that we are excellent at,
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training the curiosity out of students.
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I taught high school science, and by the time I got kids,
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in their junior year of high school or senior year of high school,
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the curiosity was pretty much like non-existent in kids.
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They were ready to know what were the right answers.
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What did I need to know for the test?
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And, it was really hard to get them engaged in that curiosity again.
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And, you know, having a daughter,
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I always knew the curiosity was somewhere in there, but having a daughter,
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young daughter, I realized that that's something that was inherent to kids.
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Is that, the curiosity is there. And,
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what do we do between these young ages and,
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almost young adulthood that we,
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sort of, like, train them not to be curious anymore.
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Yeah.
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I was talking about exactly that thing today
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with one of my colleagues about, like, what kind of happens in these years
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that suddenly this, like, passion and that spark for learning kind of decreases.
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I think there's lots of factors.
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We can't point to one thing, but I would agree with you.
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You know, it's almost like in that DP classroom, you're kind of trying to
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reignite or generate it again and be like, don't worry about the answers per se.
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Like, let's develop your curiosity again. Let's get you engaged.
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And the thing that's cool about this subject, right?
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Yeah.
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So another thing that obviously comes up with pretty much everything
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that Hattie releases is the knowing your impact.
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And in your role at Kognity, what does that look like in practice for you?
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I think what it looks like in practice to me is that,
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Kognity is full
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of great people that are experts at their jobs,
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engineers, UX designers,
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people who deliver professional development.
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She hasn't mentioned my job.
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I was noticing,
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but I wasn't going to say anything about it.
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Pretty much everyone except for.. No.
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No, everybody.
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Everybody.
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Especially Courtney.
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I saved her for last.
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You're saving best for last.
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See you ruined it, Court.
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Come on.
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But, not everybody has, classroom experience
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or has, education experience
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other than the education that they experienced,
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growing up and, that education
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back then, because we're all older, we're not all
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sitting in a classroom right now unless we're doing a PhD.
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That experience
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has looked very different over time.
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Most of us sat in classrooms where we sat,
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in rows, and our teacher talked about us all day.
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And, then we were supposed to absorb that information and then take a test.
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And learning has changed a lot.
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And so has teaching.
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And so I think part of the impact I get to make at my job,
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is sort of behind the scenes of sharing
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what is good teaching and learning look like in the classroom.
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And, how do we pay attention to that when we're thinking
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about the elements that we design for Kognity.
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And then also I participate in designing that stuff as well.
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And, so then I get to take those good teaching and learning practices
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and infuse them into the work that I do for Kognity.
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One thing I can think of specifically were when we made slide decks for teachers,
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people were like, yeah, we just take the information
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and we put it on the slide.
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Ta da!
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And I was like, actually,
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there are a lot of great things we could build into a slide deck.
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We could build, facilitation notes that tell teachers, you know,
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we're going to have a discussion here, some great discussion prompts or,
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I know you're sitting in a classroom full of diverse learners.
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Here are six different strategies you can use to address
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like six different, diverse learning needs.
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We know that time is precious.
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So here's, ballpark of the pacing
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that it's going to take to do this part of this lesson.
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So therefore you can decide, how you're going to adjust
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to meet the needs of your classroom.
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Building in simple things like, queuing icons,
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just a little thing at the top of the slide that communicates to the student.
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We're about to participate in the whole class
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discussion, or we're about to do a think pair share.
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And they're little things, but they really make
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a huge impact in the classroom in terms of, supporting the learners.
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I love that because it's absolutely true.
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And as, as somebody who uses the platform as well, you notice those things
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and it helps you be more intentional.
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So when it comes to I guess, yeah, knowing your impact,
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it's that classic quote of of being a teacher, right?
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You you kind of impact eternity.
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You don't really know where your influence stops.
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And I would say the same thing.
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And as education evolves, it is it's those little things.
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It's those small tweaks and small changes that suddenly make it a bit better.
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Increment by increment, you know?
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So I guess. Yeah.
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Just grateful for that. Thanks.
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You’re welcome.
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Is there maybe like a specific learning principle or something
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that you kind of always keep in your head when you're designing this stuff?
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When you're trying
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to apply that visible learning stuff in, in your resource development?
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Yeah. I think,
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one thing that I like
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to keep in mind is that,
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learning is actually very social.
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A lot of people think, learning can be individual,
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and there are some aspects that can be individual, but,
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learning inherently is social because it comes from
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you learn about something and then you discuss it with another person.
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And then they challenge you on how you're thinking about that idea.
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Or maybe they add insight to something that you're thinking about or experience.
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And you have this back and forth and, that's really
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where the learning happens is in this like, social dynamic.
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And so something I try to consider when designing things is
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how are we attending to that social aspect of learning,
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especially when we're talking about learning happening on a digital platform.
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Where are the places that you're giving students opportunity to both,
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absorb information or collect evidence and observations.
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But then,
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where do they go with that?
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Yeah.
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So do we provide them opportunities to have a discussion
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or to share out that learning in some way that can,
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you know, pay attention to that, social aspect.
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It's super refreshing to hear that, because I know a lot of people
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that would criticize the digital sort of learning
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or that sort of space would say it's because it makes them isolated.
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But to know that as an experience is, you know, as a designer
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of that content, you're thinking of how do we make this more social,
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is, yeah, that's great to hear, especially as an educator.
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As our last warm up question,
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I want to ask you, you mentioned you are a high school science teacher.
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Then you went in, you did your PhD, now you're here,
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stuck with us.
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What drew you to learning design and the space?
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I would say,
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it was sort of the
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thing that drew me out of the classroom is that,
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as a classroom teacher, I impacted
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150 students a year, and that was my boundary.
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And, I really enjoyed, teaching.
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And I really enjoyed learning about students, specifically,
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what motivates students to keep engaging with learning.
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And so when I left the classroom and stepped into a PhD,
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my thought was, I'm going to work with teachers,
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because if I can work with teachers and sort of,
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infuse them with, like, what good teaching looks like and how to be really
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supportive of students, then they can each go impact 150 kids a year.
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And that's going to broaden, like how good teaching
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practices are infused in the education community.
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But then I also thought, but that only works
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if teachers have great curriculum to work with.
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And so where could I make that kind of impact?
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And so that's what kind of drew me to Kognity
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is that I, I could help design learning experiences
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and also support teachers at the same time.
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So then I could make sure that while teachers are picking up,
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great teaching practices, they also have great curriculum to work
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with to enact those teaching practices.
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All right. Well, let's get into kind of the main parts here.
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We're talking about how we go from research into reality.
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And of course,
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kind of reflecting on John Hattie's episode
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and what he was talking there about visible learning.
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And I know,
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you know, any educator out there has probably done a little bit of work
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with visible learning, and they're aware of those things.
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But let's talk about how we kind of take
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that research, put it into practice, and expand on what you talked about here.
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I guess, first off, when you think of,
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the work that Hattie has done and some of the things that we spoke
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about in the episode,
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was there anything that really challenged or maybe shifted your thinking?
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I don't know if it's necessarily challenged
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my thinking or shifted my thinking, but it was almost like
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a reminder of something that I, I tend to forget about.
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And I it was when Hattie was talking about, reflection.
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He was talking about we tell kids to reflect, reflect, reflect.
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And we know from research,
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reflection is really important for like shifting student thinking,
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especially when that reflection involves,
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like, thinking about progress or thinking about, evidence
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and connecting that to current thinking and, shifting thinking.
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But we don't actually teach students how to reflect.
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We just embed
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opportunities for reflection, but we don't think about
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they might actually not know how to reflect.
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So I think that's something that,
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is something I have known,
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but it was like a good reminder for me that
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all of these strategies, the ones that how he talks about invisible learning or
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any of the strategies from research in general, are good strategies.
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But we never take that step backwards to say,
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do my students actually know how to do that?
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Discussion is another big one
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where we know that discussion has a high impact
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for many reasons.
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One of the ones I just mentioned, which was that it's social, right?
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When you have classroom discussions
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or small group discussions, we bring in that social aspect.
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But do we teach kids how to have discussions?
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And so in order for something to be impactful,
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we have to take a step backwards and say, okay,
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I want my
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students to participate in discussion, but do they know how?
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And and putting together
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the resources that support students and developing those skills
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so that they can do the high impact strategies in the classroom?
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And I think it's the same for teachers, too,
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as we want teachers to have all these great teaching practices.
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But do we spend time teaching teachers how to build that practice?
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I think that was like a good reminder for me
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that it takes more than just infusing the practice or the strategy.
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We also have to think about how do we support the development
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of that for teachers and students.
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Yeah. No, I, I completely agree.
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I think that really resonates
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with a lot of the professional learning that we've done
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at Kognity, where we host these conferences and things like that.
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And it's like nobody ever goes to a professional development being like,
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you know, I just really want to learn more about these details in chemistry.
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Like, that's not it.
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That's the part you can kind of figure out on your own time.
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And it is this like, I know I want my kids to be
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having discussions, but
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how do I get them to have discussions that are actually constructive
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and like being able to build these frameworks for them?
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I agree that that's that's definitely important.
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What do you think that educators are
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misunderstanding most often about what works best and learning like?
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Is there anything that you see time and time again where it's like
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they are trying to or think that they're doing,
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one of these kind of learning, high impact, strategies.
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But then actually, it's not.
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I think I have two thoughts on this.
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One of them Hattie brought up, which is,
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the idea of..
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You don’t just walk into the classroom and implement strategies.
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You first have to identify the problem and then find the right strategies
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to solve the problem.
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I think that's a big one where you can't go through
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a checklist and say, high impact, high impact, high impact.
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I'm going to do these things and magically transform my classroom.
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I think you really have to think about what's my classroom environment,
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what's the learning environment, what are my students needs
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and then pick the strategies that fit with that
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and in solving that problem.
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I think, too, is the idea that,
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sometimes in the classroom, we think we're enacting strategies,
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but we're actually not doing anything different in the classroom.
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I always come back to discussion because this was
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one of my research topics for my PhD, but,
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you know, when discussion came on the scene as like, this is really big,
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a big strategy for shifting and learning, and we got to have more discussions
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in the classroom.
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A lot of teachers are like, yeah, I'm doing that.
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But the discussion look like one way questions
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from teacher to student and then students answering those questions.
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And they were like, see, I'm having a discussion.
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But actually discussions are back and forth.
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Right?
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It's a partnership where both people get to ask questions
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and both people get to contribute answers.
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And that's what really is the richness of a classroom discussion.
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And so I think,
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enacting strategies, but not really understanding
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how the strategy is different
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than what you're currently doing in the classroom is one of the areas that
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are necessary for
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teachers to grow and enact these high impact strategies.
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So one of the things I love about what you just said is that I, I highly
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agree with it.
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There's so often that you have teachers who just feel like I'm
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doing the same thing, and this is just a new name for what I already do,
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and it kind of ignores the evolution of education and ignores
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what we can actually do to make those small increments,
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to make it a lot better when we're closed off to it.
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And we don't think about learning ourselves as a as an educator,
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I can learn about this and I can get better at it as well.
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And I can, you know, make an impact there.
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I know, as we kind of get into that second part here, like
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designing for impact, visible learning, that sort of thing.
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As you're designing this stuff for Kognity,
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how do you ensure that the content isn't just engaging?
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It's not just some sort of flashy gimmick that a teachers like,
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yeah, but that's just that's just this tech tool.
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I could do the same thing in a book.
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How do you ensure it's not just engaging but also actually effective?
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So one of the things we do is before we dive into the content,
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we think about the instructional model,
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and the instructional model, like, pulls together
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the pieces that are necessary to support, students in good learning.
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So, on the high school science side, one of the things we do
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is we think about the five model of instruction, where
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we put together components of engagement, explaining, elaboration.
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And we
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think about what is the right fit for the content there.
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But I think also, part of designing for that effective
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learning that goes beyond engagement, because engagement is only one aspect,
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is to think about the experiences.
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And how can we create experiences that are engaging but also challenging.
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And, one thing we want to consider is
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how do we put students into a place of, productive struggle?
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I'm not sure if everybody is familiar with that term, but it's the idea that,
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I'm going to present you
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with something that's engaging, but you don't quite understand yet.
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And, it's so challenging that
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I'm not able to, like, go to the internet and, like, look up an answer real quick.
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I have to do some work to figure out the pieces of,
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of what I
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need to know in order to understand this thing.
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And that's something that moves them out
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of that engagement space and into the learning space.
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So now there are a few things I need to know in order to understand,
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this concept or this engaging idea that you've presented me.
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And with that productive struggle comes element of reflection,
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which we've talked about before, being great for students, but reflection
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in a way that is going to shift their thinking from like point
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A to point B. So,
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initially when you see something, you always have
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like an idea of how to explain it.
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But is your explanation really the right explanation?
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And so through collecting evidence and observations
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and doing this sort of reflective piece, a supportive reflection for students,
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we get to take in that information and then apply it back to our,
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engaging scenario and think, oh,
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well, I had this initial idea, but now I've collected some evidence,
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I have done some observations, and I don't think my explanation quite fits.
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What do I think now?
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How can I update my thinking through reflection? And through that,
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what other questions do I have now that now need to be explored?
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So keeping them in that sort of loop of,
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I'm interested.
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I need to know more.
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I found out some things, but it doesn't quite answer my questions.
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Let's get back into it.
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And I think that's part of, designing
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the instruction that moves beyond engagement for the students.
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The first time that I came across the idea of, like, the productive struggle
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was when I, I remember,
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you know, when edtech tools were kind of first coming out.
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There was so much like, there's so much like gimmicky, gimmicky.
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This is edutainment.
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That was such a big word.
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That was coming across a lot.
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And it was like, well, how do we make sure that's not us?
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It's like, how do you balance being engaging but not just entertaining?
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And I think that that's a lot of the really hard work that you guys
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have been doing behind the scenes of like, yeah, we have to pick topics
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that are going to get that initial buy in from students,
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but if they don't do anything with it
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and they don't think hard about it and have that struggle like you said,
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then it is just edutainment or whatever, and then there's not
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actual learning happening.
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So no, I think it's so important.
25:06
I think it's also like, how do we think about engagement?
25:10
And if you don't dig deep into a lot of research literature,
25:15
we think of engagement as like showing up, like doing
25:19
those clicks, being present in a classroom, completing a task.
25:24
And there's actually two other modes of engagement that aren't talked
25:28
about as much in education, outside of research,
25:32
which is the cognitive engagement and the emotional engagement. So,
25:38
there's an
25:38
there's a need for that behavioral engagement, like,
25:41
you got to have kids show up to the classroom
25:43
or the platform and do those clicks, but it's how do you connect
25:47
to these other two types of engagement that are important as well.
25:51
And that's what creating like challenging scenarios or,
25:55
opportunities to like, really, struggle with how you understand
25:59
our concept that tap into these other two,
26:02
types of engagement, the cognitive and the emotional.
26:05
I love it.
26:06
As you were talking there, I had this image
26:08
in my head of as a teacher, you kind of constantly,
26:11
for lack of a better term, mining for like, where's the thing
26:13
that's going to get the student all the way into that?
26:16
And I love that productive struggle,
26:18
because then I had this image of like, that's the golden nugget.
26:20
That's the thing that like, I want that.
26:22
And, you know
26:24
when it happens as an educator, it's that hum in the room that suddenly happens
26:28
when the students are really engaged in the task
26:31
that has the right level of challenge, the right sort of level of stress,
26:35
you know, or anxiety like that, that sort of optimum zone of like,
26:39
this is tough, but it's interesting and I want to figure it out.
26:42
And I think about things differently
26:44
than I did just before, like everything you were just saying there.
26:47
That's all the metacognitive principles that we're hoping for.
26:49
That's all the like deep learning stuff that we're hoping for within our classes.
26:54
And that's the stuff that's really meaningful, that
26:56
when we talk about the deployment program, it's like we want it to be meaningful.
27:00
We want it to be enjoyable, we want it to be achievable.
27:02
And those things happen when you have those
27:06
those productive struggles that you're talking about.
27:08
So, I just love that that's, that that's a goal
27:12
that that's something that you're trying to make evident for teachers so that,
27:17
you know, as we search and of course, everything's going to be context specific.
27:20
But as we look through those things you're saying, like, here's
27:23
here's one, here's a golden nugget, go on, play with that a little bit.
27:27
I just I think that's awesome.
27:28
Yeah.
27:29
And I think, one of the ways I think that shows up in IB specifically
27:33
is, sort of those community projects that students tackle
27:38
because they learn a lot of things, but then they have a real world problem
27:42
that they're going to struggle with and try to apply that knowledge to.
27:46
And it's not going to be, like one size fits all.
27:50
Those problems are going to be unique, and the students are really going
27:53
to have to dive into that to sort of figure out,
27:58
as I observe and understand
28:00
this problem more, how how my knowledge fits with that.
28:04
And what are the other pieces of evidence
28:06
I need to collect in order to understand that problem and,
28:09
and help get to a place where I can do some sort of action,
28:13
to maybe not completely solve the problem, but,
28:17
work towards, like, solving that problem.
28:20
Yeah.
28:20
And none of that say like specific worksheet task or something like that.
28:23
It's the meaningful let's let's do something that's important
28:27
for our community, for example, or, you know,
28:30
do something that's going to engage the people around us in a better way.
28:35
Are you an IB educator wanting
28:37
to improve your practice and needing just a bit more support getting there?
28:41
Ever wanted to learn more about a specific aspect of the diploma program?
28:45
Or just ask a question to an educational theorist about a specific IB aspect?
28:49
IB Unplugged is the place for you.
28:51
Simply visit kognity.com/ibunplugged to submit your question to us,
28:56
and have your question explored in more detail in an upcoming episode.
29:00
And now, back to the show.
29:03
When we think about
29:04
the kind of actual parts of your job, you've talked about a lot of the different
29:08
pieces that you've designed, elements in the platform, to what degree,
29:13
I mean, you know a lot of things. Melanie.
29:17
No. You,
29:19
your your research is so relevant to the product.
29:23
I mean, that's why you're here.
29:25
How much have you seen the role of evidence and research actually
29:30
play out in designing Kognity’s content, designing the platform, things like that.
29:36
Like, were there when you were listening to Hattie's episode or when you've read,
29:40
obviously you read him before you joined Kognity, but you've he's come up
29:44
with some new stuff too, like what stands out as like these are practices
29:49
specifically, and this is research specifically that has shaped Kognity?
29:55
Yeah.
29:55
I think, when we think about, the things that we design,
30:00
we are taking in pieces from not only like education research,
30:06
but psychology research and also some anthropological research.
30:11
That's the, you know, learning is social aspect. And,
30:16
when we take in all those pieces of research
30:20
and we have to design something to infuse all of those things,
30:25
we think about, okay,
30:27
we have a learner and we're going to situate them in this,
30:30
digital learning environment. And,
30:34
that digital learning environment is sometimes
30:37
going to be orchestrated by the learner and sometimes orchestrated by the teacher.
30:41
And, that's all going to be around this like content knowledge.
30:47
Right?
30:49
And so in order for it
30:52
to be successful, you have to take
30:55
in those pieces of research and fit them where it's appropriate.
30:59
So, when we think about, research,
31:03
from education that tells us specifically, like,
31:06
what do teachers need to do in order to support good learning.
31:12
But it's also these elements of psychology,
31:14
like we were just talking about engagement.
31:16
So we also have to think about, okay, well,
31:20
if we're thinking about all three modes of engagement,
31:22
how do we design things on the platform that support those?
31:26
And that's how all of this research shows up
31:29
in the Kognity platform.
31:32
Because it's not enough to just say,
31:35
like, here's how you do chemical equations
31:38
and, stoichiometry.
31:41
But how do we tap into,
31:44
the behavioral engagement, the cognitive engagement.
31:47
And how do we design that?
31:49
And so it shows up in the platform in many different ways.
31:53
And I think, if you look at how content is presented, for example,
31:59
oftentimes content isn't just like go read this,
32:03
it's, it's read an article, watch a video, do a lab experiment.
32:09
Try out this thing.
32:10
And those are all different ways we're tapping into those different
32:13
research components of education, psychology
32:16
and anthropology.
32:19
And also the ways that we give students
32:22
opportunities to like, prove their competency in the platform.
32:26
So we have opportunities where they can do a little reflection.
32:31
They can also do a little self-check,
32:34
where they get feedback
32:35
on like, do I actually know what I think I know?
32:39
And then they also have opportunities to like practice
32:41
assessments or engage in assessments, which are, feedback on
32:45
where they are in their mastery spectrum of knowledge.
32:49
And I think that's how the research shows up.
32:52
Yeah.
32:52
You can see where there's so much intention
32:54
behind implementing good pedagogy into usability,
32:58
you know, and both from the teacher and from the students.
33:00
And what I love about what you just said is, you know, sometimes the learning
33:04
is going to be facilitated by the teacher and sometimes can be facilitated by
33:07
the student.
33:08
And it kind of leads us nicely into this next segment.
33:11
I guess I want to look into, you know, inquiry and instruction
33:15
and learning design because, you know, one of the things
33:18
we ended up talking about with Hattie, and actually something that just comes up
33:21
in most conversations is this idea of like the tension between genuine inquiry
33:25
and letting somebody discover something and come across it.
33:29
And that sort of explore, I think, is one of the five,
33:31
as you mentioned before, versus the direct instruction,
33:34
which I guess would be more on that explain area.
33:38
How do you
33:38
see that kind of playing out in the learning design itself?
33:41
How do we kind of balance or not balance, but I guess play with that
33:44
tension of inquiry versus direct instruction?
33:48
Yeah.
33:48
I think, something that Hattie mentioned is that these two things don't
33:53
have to be in conflict with each other because they both serve a purpose.
33:57
They're both good at doing different things.
34:01
And so, I think about,
34:04
when we develop learning experiences,
34:08
we have to think about what is,
34:11
the learning objective of this thing.
34:13
Is it to be in line with something that's a better fit
34:19
for direct instruction, or is it something that's a better fit for inquiry?
34:24
So, you know, let's take a simple example of, of labs,
34:29
some, space where you collect observations and you have evidence
34:33
and you come up with questions after you collect that evidence. And,
34:38
that's not really a good place for direct instruction.
34:41
It's not the place
34:42
where you tell students like, okay, do this, do this, do this, do this.
34:46
You want students to get into it and,
34:49
and and play with those materials and, you know, not necessarily
34:54
make mistakes depending on the lab, but because it can be a little bit dangerous.
34:59
But you do want them to sort of like, have the boundaries
35:01
of playing with different variables to see these different outcomes.
35:04
So then they can, use that to inform how they understand something.
35:09
And, and that's, a nice place for inquiry to show up.
35:14
I think too is, considering that
35:19
when we're designing those experiences, are we staying true
35:24
to what direct instruction is and what inquiry is?
35:31
A lot of
35:31
people think inquiry is just like free exploration.
35:35
Oh, yeah. We've talked about this, Melanie. Right?
35:37
Like the different stages of inquiry.
35:40
That's right.
35:41
And if we if we go back to, like, our father of inquiry, John Dewey,
35:46
he says inquiry is a cycle and that cycle starts
35:50
with, like, thinking about a problem so that you
35:54
you've observed something, you've observed a problem,
35:56
or you've observed something that is intriguing to you.
36:00
And, that's actually where the inquiry starts,
36:04
not in this kind of free exploration of something.
36:08
But rather thinking about the problem and thinking about, solutions
36:12
to that problem.
36:13
And, and that's where you then pivot towards this,
36:18
the exploration of like your hypothesis.
36:21
Right?
36:22
It doesn't start with the exploration of the hypothesis.
36:25
It starts back with that, problem observation that guides
36:29
you towards what you're going to, explore.
36:33
And so I think about when we're
36:35
designing these experiences, you can't just like plop inquiry somewhere.
36:39
It has to, you know, be part of this cycle that started with this problem,
36:44
that engage the students with thinking about trying to figure it out.
36:50
And the same with direct instruction.
36:52
Direct instruction isn't just
36:55
actually like facilitating information to students.
36:58
There's like a way that direct instruction
37:01
is engaging with students.
37:04
I like to rely on that idea of the Socratic method.
37:08
Right?
37:08
That is a form of direct instruction, but it does involve asking questions
37:12
and getting students to say things that then the teacher can push back
37:16
with different questions and,
37:19
you know, just sort of designing the experience
37:23
to sort of like be true to, what direct instruction and inquiry are.
37:28
Yeah.
37:29
We had one podcast with David Didau and he was basically saying,
37:33
like, you don't all have to hate direct instruction.
37:36
It doesn't like suck by default, which is really not the way that he said it.
37:41
He was a little bit more eloquent than that.
37:45
But I mean, it's exactly that, right?
37:48
Like, not all inquiry is like,
37:52
free for all experience and not all direct
37:55
instruction is just boring or just,
37:59
sage on the stage kind of, experience there.
38:03
It's like.
38:04
Like, I really like what you're saying about what are the right times to do,
38:08
which type of instruction and what are the strategies
38:11
that you're using within those realms?
38:15
Yeah, how you shaped those experiences
38:18
that actually show if it has that visible impact.
38:22
Yeah.
38:22
And I think that's something Hattie mentioned too, is that even doing inquiry,
38:28
students have to have a foundation of information
38:31
in order to engage in inquiry in a really authentic and productive way.
38:37
So, you know, if you want to engage students in some sort of like
38:41
science concept, but they don't have the sort of background knowledge
38:46
in order to ask the right questions or make the right observations,
38:51
then you know, you're not staying true to,
38:55
what inquiry is asking the students to do.
38:58
And that kind of foundational knowledge
39:01
most likely might come from direct instruction.
39:05
Now I know, obviously as you design, you know,
39:08
the resources with Kognity, you're thinking about this stuff
39:12
on the on the opposite side of it.
39:14
You know, I'm I'm the teacher here.
39:16
What's the ideal way that I can be using the platform
39:19
for those sort of moments of structured guidance,
39:22
as well as for those moments of student led exploration,
39:25
like when you're putting this together, what do you think is like,
39:28
when the teacher does it like this, then it meets each of these avenues.
39:32
I think the main thing is that the teachers
39:35
should always be thinking that this is not all or nothing.
39:40
It's not all platform.
39:41
It's not all off platform.
39:43
It's this nice, sweet spot of, blended, platform and teacher time.
39:49
So, I think about when a student approaches
39:54
something in the platform, let's say there's a reading for students to do, that
39:59
the teacher is thinking it doesn't end there.
40:01
It's not just that the students, maybe the teacher do the reading.
40:07
It's also, that the teacher is going to recognize
40:12
that we can take that reading and what's in the reading.
40:15
And we can also have a discussion about it in our classroom.
40:18
And so, you know, the teacher should be thinking about
40:21
how do I facilitate a discussion around this reading that the students just had
40:26
that will help them get the most out of that reading, and also help them
40:29
ask the questions that are going to get us to the next part of,
40:33
the learning experience.
40:36
And I think
40:36
that's something that is, definitely a struggle.
40:40
I see, just like everywhere, is that,
40:43
teachers receive a curriculum.
40:45
And now we think, like I enact it in its entirety, and that's all,
40:52
but it it's more about thinking about, like, how do we blend that?
40:57
And how do we incorporate our own learning experiences?
41:00
How do we include our own teaching practice
41:05
in addition to the platform that makes like
41:09
a complete picture of learning, for the student.
41:13
Not just like this, sort of like one sided experience.
41:17
Yeah. What I'm hearing
41:18
there is a lot of intention to be creative as a teacher as well.
41:21
You know, like use this as the baseline, but don't discount your own experiences.
41:26
Don't discount what you can bring contextually as well.
41:29
And I know for myself, whenever I'm looking at it
41:31
and I kind of think, okay, these are the main learning
41:34
principles, this stuff I want to go through.
41:35
And yes, I'll have some students read a bit of the Kognity work ahead of time,
41:40
but then even today I was like, oh, I could design something
41:42
about that now, because in our context, these things are starting to bloom.
41:46
Like our these plants are going.
41:48
So I can easily bring them out and we can start playing with those.
41:51
And yeah, so I just see the freedom to be creative.
41:55
And it sounds like that you're intentionally designing for.
41:58
Yeah.
41:58
And also thinking about the student experiences.
42:04
I was working with a
42:05
teacher in New York recently and they were saying,
42:10
we have a biology unit that, talks about mountain lions.
42:14
And then, a student came to them with an article that was like, hey,
42:18
did you see this article where, they found a mountain lion, like,
42:22
roaming around Buffalo, New York? And the teacher was like, say what?
42:27
And so it like, you know, it was like, that's not on the platform.
42:31
This article about, Buffalo
42:34
mountain lions.
42:35
But it's this opportunity for you to take sort of this information
42:39
from the platform and apply it to this new experience that the student
42:43
is bringing into the classroom and expanding on that. Wow.
42:48
We have mountain lions and buffalo, like, never would have thought that.
42:51
And, that opens up like, what other species do you think
42:55
are roaming around the, you know, New York that we haven't considered?
42:59
And how do the principles of what we learned here in this unit apply
43:04
to understanding, like how these animals show up in our spaces?
43:08
So I think that's part of it, too.
43:12
I think that you are talking a lot about like,
43:15
where does the where did the teacher in the platform work together?
43:19
And I think that one element that stands out also for me
43:22
is in the scaffolding and I but I think that it's in a lot of ways
43:27
that's where the teacher can really shine through,
43:30
because they know their students a lot more.
43:31
They know where the scaffolding is needed.
43:34
But also, I think it's, a responsibility of any curriculum and any edtech tool
43:39
to also effectively scaffold for developing these resources
43:44
and developing these learning experiences.
43:48
Yeah, what does it look like when it's done
43:50
effectively in the platform to best support teachers?
43:54
When you think about scaffolding, you're thinking about this,
43:59
sort of support that you're giving students before
44:02
they're able to act in these ideal ways in the classroom.
44:08
And so
44:09
sometimes that scaffolding is considering what's the prior knowledge
44:14
that students should have before they get to the starting point,
44:18
so that they can move forward?
44:20
And we know from, you know, being in classrooms that not all students
44:24
enter the classroom with the same set of prior knowledge for many reasons.
44:29
And so when we design things
44:32
and learning experiences on the platform, we have to consider,
44:36
how do we make sure that students have that prior knowledge so that they
44:40
have the level footing to even engage with this learning experience?
44:44
Sometimes that looks like, informing the teacher, here's the prior
44:48
knowledge students need before they start so that they can do something before,
44:53
to get students to that level, to be ready to engage in an idea.
44:59
But it can also look like
45:01
little seeds of information that we put along the way,
45:05
that are giving students that prior
45:07
knowledge, like, almost like a reminder of like,
45:10
you remember, like
45:12
you remember about atoms and their subatomic particles.
45:15
You remember about this.
45:18
And I think that's one way of, thinking about scaffolding.
45:21
And the idea is that scaffolding is impermanent.
45:24
So scaffolding is meant to fade away over time.
45:28
And, and so as we progress through,
45:32
different units and different topics, we are intentionally,
45:37
sort of taking those pieces away because students are,
45:41
gaining more and more mastery, as they move through
45:44
and so then we are presenting different
45:47
challenges, to students as we progress.
45:50
And, but, but we sort of put that scaffolding in place
45:55
when they get to that challenge so that they're ready to do it.
45:57
I think another thing to think about, back to thinking about what should teachers
46:02
be doing with Kognity in the classroom is you could also,
46:07
think about Kognity as a scaffolding tool. So,
46:12
you know, maybe
46:13
you have students do something on the platform
46:16
that is a scaffold to prepare them for something
46:19
you want to do,
46:22
in the classroom
46:23
directly, just, you and the students as a teacher,
46:27
or maybe something you do in the classroom as a scaffold
46:29
for something that they are meant to do on the platform, like an activity.
46:33
And I think it's, you know, you want to think about
46:36
scaffolding in multiple ways, how do these tools support each other,
46:41
but also how does the tool itself support students.
46:45
That leads really nicely.
46:46
I want to kind of get into maybe this last area here
46:49
where we're just talking about edtech, AI, future of learning, that sort of stuff.
46:55
And what you're mentioning there, I think is really useful for any
46:58
Kognity user.
46:59
I guess anybody's really using edtech platforms in general,
47:02
not necessarily Kognity, but let's talk specifically with Kognity.
47:06
How can these platforms ensure that that technology enhances
47:10
and doesn't just replace good pedagogy?
47:11
And I guess, you know,
47:12
you've given a great example here with, you know, maybe you use the platform
47:16
as a scaffolding to lead something you do in the classroom or vice versa.
47:20
Are there maybe two or other three great examples of things that you think,
47:24
like, teachers should be doing this
47:25
with that platform so that you're you're enhancing great pedagogy?
47:30
When you are doing things that require any kind of edtech,
47:37
are you doing it for edtech sake
47:39
or are you doing it because the edtech,
47:43
supports the thing that I want students to do,
47:46
or the learning objectives that I have for students?
47:51
Think back to like the OG EdTech was like,
47:54
PowerPoint slides, right?
47:57
Where teachers like using PowerPoint slides, just use PowerPoint.
48:02
It's like, oh, I just took my notes and now they're on PowerPoint.
48:05
Or were they developing slide decks that,
48:10
you know, would disseminate information in a way that,
48:15
would create engaging opportunities for students, which is something
48:19
that slide decks could do if you didn't just put like a wall of text
48:23
on a slide and call it, like using technology.
48:28
I'm just thinking about overhead projectors right now.
48:30
I'm not going to lie.
48:32
Exactly.
48:34
I know that, one of the last classrooms I worked in,
48:38
we were very fortunate that we had,
48:41
been given tons of money to do, like, upgrades.
48:44
And I had a fancy lab where I had, like a dedicated lab space,
48:48
a dedicated lecture space, and my lecture space came with a smartboard.
48:53
And, the smartboard is like this interactive thing.
48:56
You could have students interact with it.
48:58
It came with like student response systems where you could put up these
49:02
like engaging questions
49:03
and like in real time, get feedback like what students know.
49:06
And, you know, I saw most of my colleagues
49:10
just like, look at this fancy new PowerPoint presenter.
49:13
And I was like, oh.
49:16
And then all it is actually is a projector.
49:18
Yeah, it is just a projector.
49:21
Look at this bigger projector.
49:25
So, you know, I think about that.
49:27
It's like, what is the thing that edtech supports best for students
49:32
and enacting it in those ways. And,
49:36
you know, one great example is that,
49:38
edtech can be this great, like,
49:41
support for students who need support in either
49:45
direction in terms of like, going slower or going a little bit faster.
49:50
Right?
49:50
If if you're one of those students, you could take your time to go through
49:54
the material that's on the platform, or if you're very fast at it,
49:58
you can go through the platform like super fast.
50:02
And that's a great thing
50:04
that an edtech product can do that a teacher can't do.
50:08
I can't both be fast and slow at the same time.
50:10
I can only go the speed that I'm going.
50:14
And I think like there are tools that are evolving,
50:17
especially in the like, student feedback
50:20
realm where we're thinking about,
50:23
when a student answers a question, what can edtech tools do that
50:28
can look through their response to that and give some real time
50:32
feedback to a student that says,
50:35
great, you did excellent
50:37
in understanding this concept, but you kind of missed the mark here.
50:42
And here's some things you should do.
50:43
Like to enhance your understanding and also give that feedback to the teacher
50:48
to say, hey, all your students just took this test and I noticed
50:52
they all have this common misconception that a teaching opportunity
50:56
that says I, as a teacher, need to adjust my instruction to account for this.
51:02
So and that's something that, a teacher can do, but it takes time.
51:06
But, you know, leaning on the edtech tools to, to do that
51:09
kind of work for the teacher so that the teacher can focus on
51:13
what they do best, which is enacting those, like practices
51:16
that can't be done on a platform like a discussion.
51:19
Nice.
51:21
So keep the learning objective.
51:22
The main point don't just do the edtech thing because it's flashy, right?
51:26
Yeah.
51:27
Recognize the differentiation ability there.
51:29
And the ability to be kind of fast and slow at the same time,
51:32
or allow students to engage the way they want,
51:34
scaffold when necessary, and then also take advantage,
51:37
I guess, of the when you get a summary or here's
51:40
what kids know and here's what they don't know,
51:42
oh, you need to focus in on this area, that area that kind of takes off.
51:45
It offloads a little bit of that load for us as well.
51:48
Yeah. Good.
51:50
Well Melanie, this has been so fun to chat with you about all of this.
51:54
I think it's so interesting.
51:56
I mean, it's obviously interesting for me, I work here. But, it's
51:59
so I think it's important for people to be able to understand
52:04
how things are made to better know how to use them and to, you know,
52:09
really understand the intentionality behind the choices that are made.
52:13
And that's what sets a product up to be valuable for teachers and for students.
52:18
And I think you've given a lot of great, insight into the behind the scenes,
52:23
why things are the way they are, but also a lot of ideas for
52:26
how to use Kognity, how to use edtech products in general.
52:29
And yeah, just a bit more of that kind of practical dive into a lot of the ideas
52:34
that we talked about with, John Hattie in the episode before.
52:37
So thank you so much. Thank you so much.
52:41
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast hosted by John Patton and Courtney Marline
52:45
and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
52:47
Be sure to subscribe or follow and share with your fellow IB educators.
52:51
If you'd like to submit a topic, request, or a question, please do so
52:54
on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
52:57
Let's keep the conversation going
52:58
and support each other in teaching with confidence, creativity, and joy.
53:02
See you next time.