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Kim's Response to Seasons · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: Hello, lovely.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Hi. How are you? I'm doing good. I brought a friend just so that the little snow is all good here. Just want everyone to be comfortable.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: That's that's a lovely unicorn.
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: Just just in case. That's amazing.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: He's that's Noelle. Non gender. Just Noelle.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: Okay. Are you ready for this?
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: I think so. I'm holding on to my hat.
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: You're such a good sport. You're such a kind friend.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: So first of all, I want to apologize to you because you told me, you warned me, don't be talking about all your personal business on podcast.
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: You told me a year ago, y'all need to stop talking about your sex life. Don't do it. Don't do it. You tried to tell me.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Okay. Uh-huh. So I just want to acknowledge that I feel like the greatest lesson of the last year is that Kim is always right,
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: and pay attention to Kim. What happened?
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. I can't even tell you. Okay. So here's what happened, and we can chat about it. Okay.
• 2:27
  Is that okay?
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I just didn't wanna say anything. Since we can edit it, I didn't want you to, like, be out there and then all of your business is out there.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: Oh, my business is out there. That's the problem.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: True.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: So what happened is that, well, I could blame not listening to you. I could blame being human and struggling and sharing too much in the process, or I could just blame my therapist, which is easiest, to blame the therapist, that everything is her fault. Right. So basically the Reader's Digest version is that at some point in therapy last spring, in the middle of whatever, our therapist was like, when are we gonna talk about that you and your husband are both gay?
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: Uh-huh. You can't even keep a straight face.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: I try. I try to keep
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: it together. Right. Right. So we talked about this a little bit on the piece by piece episode. Right.
• 3:42
  Okay? So then in the meantime, for all these months this spring, the husband and are having different conversations. We're learning different things. Like, we're doing you know him. He's safe.
• 3:53
  He's good. He's kind in all of his context. So he is coming to a place of trying to learn language for this, learn words for this. And, yes, to the rest of the world, we sound like idiots because like it's such at the beginning of the process but everyone has a starting place and he has a right to his. Unfortunately it was in the context with me on the podcast as he found words and talked about things so vulnerably as we always do.
• 4:28
  And so so what happened was we did the seasons of love episode.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: I remember.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: And in that episode, he took the Kinsey test just for fun. It's not like a diagnosis. Being gay or not gay or anywhere in between is not a problem. He was practicing using words and practicing framework and trying to find validating experiences and tools to give himself a way to talk about things.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: And so he did that on the podcast. It was fine. It was. I was really proud of him, and it gave us, like, a starting place to talk about things. And one of the things that came up was how me looking at his life without judging him at all I mean, you know, you've heard him for years.
• 5:30
  You've seen him like Yeah. We're chill. We're chill. We're good. And I feel safe enough with him that I can think things and say things.
• 5:38
  And maybe I jumped the gun by pushing. But one of the things that I talked about was how I felt like his score would be higher if he did not have the context of the spiritual faith tradition that he does.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: I remember that. Yep. You did.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: So I was not at all meaning that everything about his church is bad, nor was I meaning people could be less gay if they went to church. Do not mean either of those things.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: I was just trying because of my own therapy to be less binary in my thinking.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Right. Which I understood and appreciated because I too have a serious big church background being born and raised. As you know, I like the ladies.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: Well, and I do too. So this was in the conversation. And so so it's a big thing. The other thing that's happening at the same time, this is why I needed you to sort out all the pieces. You've been such a good friend all the time.
• 6:50
  And I'm like, come, we can chat and we can sort it all out. And then I can take it back to therapy. You're such a kind friend. Thank you.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Well, So so the other thing that is happening in the background that I have not talked about on the podcast yet, but is coming very quickly. And by the time people hear this, like, this is the beginning of it really because it's so hard and so difficult is religious trauma. Yep. And so I am in a place, I got a lot of emails about how can you even be in church, how can you even be associated with these people, how can you even do this or whatever, you know that oppression is part of the history or when you know this is and here's why. At the very most simple layer, there are two reasons.
• 7:40
  One, because I'm just now starting to talk about it in therapy for one thing. And then for another thing, for me to say that my faith is all bad is still binary.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: Me to say parts of me who have a deep faith, for whatever that means to me, that those parts are bad is no different than saying parts of me with whatever sexuality are also bad. Like, I can't just pick and choose which parts are bad and good. The whole point in therapy is bringing all of that together. And I don't even mean integration like making parts go away. I mean including all of myself in my own life as I choose to create it.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I agree with that. And that whole religious trauma and all of that conversation, it's happening on a wider scale too. It's because it's it's not just in this context. It's it's everywhere. And everyone seems to be having that.
• 8:50
  Well, how could you still be as opposed to the people who are like, hey, I'm just kinda trying to sort it out. Give me five minutes.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: Exactly. Thank you. That's exactly it. Like, just in the last year, our friend from college who went through religious trauma with us found us through the podcast. They came on the podcast and talked.
• 9:10
  That was all about religious trauma we haven't addressed yet. The other girl that was our roommate and involved that she referenced is about to be on the podcast. We have reconnected. She's gonna come And on and she's actually the one who is reading the audiobook of the book. Okay.
• 9:30
  So that's pretty special. And
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: And so that's unfolding. And she has things that I need to respond to that have been in my inbox for months because it's so hard to address. Imagine. And in the background of all that, like you said, the wider experiences of society, the church I grew up in, this whole big list has come out about the whole sexual predators in leadership kind of thing and
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: the It list of names and all of
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: is so, so much to process. Yeah. And so those layers are hard. So, anyway, that's all happening in the background for me while I'm trying to say to him, I think if you did not grow up in this context, your numbers would be higher, not because his faith makes his numbers lower or that he should be more gay or that his church makes him less gay. I don't mean anything like that.
• 10:28
  I just mean he is filter in the place that he was in at the time. He is filtering his answers and has filtered his behavior based on those experiences as opposed to if that had not been the framework he grew up in, which is not the same as the framework I grew up in.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: True. Very true.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Right? So then the other thing that we really talked about a lot was asexuality and how for me that was a very safe thing in marriage while I was avoiding trauma because then nothing gets triggered.
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: Avoidance. Yay. Avoidance. Right?
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: So that's the thing. And I, in that conversation, did not at all mean to sexualize gayness or the LGBT community. And he even said at one point something about isn't that what gay means, meaning wanting to sleep with other men. He was not at all trying to sexualize the gay community. He was trying to sort through the layers and the difference of and maybe it was poor editing on my fault, but but he was trying to sort through the difference between, orientation and gender expression and all those things from the Lou Himes episode, like his awareness and language is so simple.
• 12:07
  He was not saying that because you're gay, you're sexual. Or Right. He didn't mean that. And so it's one of the reasons we took the episode down because when people gave that feedback, we were not trying to cause harm or add or reinforce stereotypes. He was literally meaning sexual orientation as opposed to gender or as opposed to role or as opposed to expression.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Does that make sense?
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: It does. I think it it for me, I think it's how we're listening to the conversation, how it's being filtered. I understood where he was going. I did know that It did just feel to me like he was just trying to feel his way through it. And sometimes the way you do that is just kind of bouncing things off of each other and having those conversations.
• 12:57
  Unfortunately, a lot of times, those conversations have to be private.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. So that lesson was learned. Right? Yes. But also the whole point of sharing that conversation was so that people could talk about it.
• 13:16
  Yeah. Because when people can't talk about it, it stays as part of the trauma.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, very much so.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: So it was a mistake on our part in any way that caused harm, but also a really important conversation moving us forward.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, because what could you have done? I don't know. I kind of feel like if you hadn't shared it, it would have been one thing. You shared it, and it was still another. I don't know if you would have won.
• 13:48
  You know what mean? Either whichever choice you made, I don't think there was a win win here. Because if you wouldn't have posted it, it would have felt some type of way for you all internally. And again, the conversation maybe that other people are now having, maybe they wouldn't have been able to have it. So I think this is one of those situations where you're kind of danged if you do or don't.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: I agree. I agree. But I also know that, especially in the LGBT community, is such a high risk of safety issues anyway that we don't want to add to the harm, which is why we took it down.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Understood.
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: So all of that is happening. The episode happened. We took the episode down. But all of that conversation, the reason it mattered is because our lives have so completely changed over the last year that even explaining what we're working on therapy needed that foundation in context. It may be the other thing I think I could have done differently is move that episode and left it in order.
• 14:59
  But because people were talking about related issues in the community, I bumped it up because I thought that would be helpful. So I think that's the other thing that made it hard is that it was out of context of, like, the order of our story, if that makes
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: sense. Yeah. I get it. Okay.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Okay. Thank you. Yeah. So it just is. I'm not shaming myself just acknowledging what I could have done differently.
• 15:24
  The other piece in that and we'll move on, I promise. But the other piece of that is that we talked about boundaries and the boundaries in the context of our marriage and what that means and what that looks like. And one of the issues that people had is that they felt it sounded like we were advocating that gay people should marry each other and raise hetero families, which is not at all what we meant. When I was talking about boundaries to free myself, I meant me responding to myself, learning about my own religious trauma, and making my own choices for my body, for what I want my life to look like moving forward, and boundaries that I set for myself as opposed to being either violated, like memory time trauma, or oppressed by black and white binary thinking of religion, which is not, to me, is not the same as faith.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: No.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: Does that make sense?
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Yep. Perfect sense.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: So all of that to be said, this is where I have come to you for conversation because I know you love the ladies, and I know I can talk to you safely like you have somebody. I'm not shopping or bothering you or being weird. We've been friends for a long time. And Right. And but I also know you're someone who has your own faith or brought up in your own faith.
• 17:11
  So my question, I guess, for you, what has that looked like for you? Not that you have to share of your own story anything you're uncomfortable with, but shifting and you don't have DID, your partner has DID, your loves have DID. But I say that now to my loves, by the way, I hear, I learned it from you, my loves. How are you, my loves?
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: I got that from you and
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: I love I was so delighted by it. I saved it until it was
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: my Good. I like it. Use it. Use it away.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: So so what does that look like for you as someone who does not lose time and has access to your whole own story of just being yourself and that including all these aspects of you?
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: So what does that look like for me? How am I juggling it? You know, I'm getting every year it gets better. I'll start with saying that. Every year it gets better.
• 18:16
  What I'm doing is unlearning a lot of the, religiosity of it all and learning more about just my faith, period. I had to learn that they were not the same thing because for many years I thought they were. When I wanna when I was maybe in my twenties is when the church that I was going to found out that I had a girlfriend. And the entire church, like, I don't know how it is in non Black churches, but in Black churches, you get publicly shamed. So it was this whole thing.
• 18:55
  I got kicked off the choir. I got kicked out of all these auxiliaries. They were preaching, you know, about me over the pulpit. It was this whole thing. Right?
• 19:04
  And, of course, you know, was, you know, God doesn't he doesn't like you. You need to change or you're gonna you're gonna go to hell. It was all of this stuff for many years. And I struggled there. And for a long time, I was just like, okay, well, I'm just not gonna date and it's just gonna be me and Jesus.
• 19:23
  And we're just gonna we're just gonna ride off into the sunset together. But, that's not reality. And I had to eventually come to terms with this is just who I am, and my faith building began there of accepting who I was. That's when it started, right? It started when I decided that I wanted to seek God and find God on my own outside of the confines of the institution of the church, let's say that.
• 19:53
  Because I don't like to just call it the church because it does feel shaming and damning, and I don't wanna ever do that. But outside of the institution of it, I had to find God on my own. And through learning how to love more of me and all of me and all of who I am, which I did get help through therapy and I got help from people who just supported me and, you know, rocked with me and and let me know that everything was okay, I started to learn that my my faith in God isn't shaken. He doesn't feel any way towards me just because I'm not dating a man or I'm not in love with men or I'm not out here, you know, procreating until I can't do it anymore or I'm not trying to be married to a man. It's not like that.
• 20:38
  To this day, it is very hard for me to go to church. I will say that. I have not been to church in many years. It has not stunted my faith, but I do miss, the fellowship and the community that, you know, the structured church gives to you. But I also stay away from my own safety.
• 20:59
  I I do not put myself or I I try very hard not to put myself in those spaces because I know where it can go. And I love myself enough now where I understand that I don't necessarily need them for that.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: See, that's so beautiful because that's what I was trying to start a conversation about. I was not at all saying you should sacrifice yourself for a faith tradition. Not what at all what I meant. What I meant was that even these people who say they represent God, whether that is abuse in memory time, which was religious trauma, or things or institutions in now time, that they have no right to who I am or what my faith is. Right.
• 21:50
  That they do not have the power to violate me in those ways, especially now that I am an adult with adult
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: resources and can keep myself safe. And I get to choose what that looks like for me. And like you are saying, safety absolutely matters most. And so knowing
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: those how you can participate or if you can participate or when you can participate is everything because safety matters absolutely.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And the and the memories still come up. I I don't you know, there are days when I remember I I kinda get a I don't wanna use these words out of context, but, like, a flash will come before me where I'm like, oh, I remember when I was in the church and this happened or they said this or they made me come to the altar and tell everybody what I did. Like, these things happen. They still come to me in my mind.
• 22:53
  But I always have to remember, yeah, but for me, you know, I'm sure it's easier for me because I don't have, you know, I don't have other parts, but I always have to say, okay, that was that was then, Kim. That's not today. Now you don't have to ride on the church bus and and be forced to deal with that because you're an adult. You drive yourself wherever you wanna go. And if you don't wanna go there, you don't have to.
• 23:14
  Yes. And those are the things that kinda bring me back and and settle me back down. But it still happens.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: I think that for me and my faith, part of my understanding is that who I know or what I know my faith looks like, part of how I know that's so valid is I can also see when it doesn't match that. Intuitively and spiritually or whatever words you wanna say, I can feel inside myself when that is true. Yeah. And whatever labels or institutions are out there, when just because they say they represent God or just because they say whatever they say does not mean that they do, nor does it mean it applies to me. And I get to decide for myself.
• 24:08
  I feel like, like, that's the whole point, right? Because my faith, because it's real, I can measure against it.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Right. Sorry. No, I didn't, the way that I came into the your your, podcast, that episode, I did not I did not hear the episode in that way. So what you're what you're explaining to me, I'm I'm taking it in now, but when the episode was airing and I was listening, I didn't feel that way at all. And, again, maybe it's just because of the lens that I'm using, but I didn't take it as any sort of attack or or demeaning or anything of that nature.
• 24:48
  It did just very much to me feel like you guys were trying to kind of figure your way out, and and things were popping up as you were having conversations. Just, oh, maybe it's this. Oh, maybe it's that. So that's that's where I am. So, I'm hearing you now say what other people are saying or where you where you were with it.
• 25:06
  And I understand now why you took the episode down. Because I did it
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: at first. I was like, was a
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: great episode. Now I see where you're coming from. And this will be a lot to have to explain to people. This is what I meant. This is what I meant.
• 25:21
  This is what I meant. This is what I meant. So I get it.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: Right. How do you and again, please, please, please, in my heart, anything that's too intrusive just pass. Because you are the one teaching me that while I learn, right? Okay, so I'm sorry. But how is that for you in your relationship with someone who has DID?
• 25:44
  And so often they're the one with this trauma or that trauma or this trauma or that trauma. But in this case, you have your own layer with that. What is that like to be the one having whatever kind of flash backs, you know, of just that, oh, yay, I have got trauma too. That's great.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: That's not the only trope I've got. Right. So my loves also grew up in a church background. So they're they were very active in church too, and they still go.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: They still go. They are, and they're fine where they're at. They but they set their limits early on. So, I can I can tell you this much without going into great detail, but they set a limit many years ago at their church because they they grew up in this particular church, and they were working in that church in, you know, different auxiliaries and stuff like that? And the church knew, of course, because my loves are more masculine presenting.
• 26:49
  So they they knew what was going on. It was more of a, know, don't ask, don't tell situation. But when someone else, though, came to the church, who also loved the ladies, then the church then had a problem with that person, but not with my loves. And that's when they drew the line up, okay, if you're gonna treat people like that, then treat me like that, and I'm out of here. That didn't happen.
• 27:12
  And so they're they're fine at the church. They have a relationship with the pastor, a beautiful relationship with a lot of the ministers. So I and it amazes me, to be honest with you, because I'm like, how? But they're fine. And they encouraged me to build my own relationship with God.
• 27:35
  That was kinda one of the things that we've always sort of had in common is, yeah, sometimes churches are trash, but that doesn't mean that God is. That's that's what they said. You don't have you don't go there for the people. You go there for God. And if you keep looking at what the people are doing and looking at what the people are saying, then you're never gonna see God for yourself.
• 27:58
  So that's the encouragement I get from them when I'm when I'm struggling in this kind of situation. And, I mean, I think a lot of it is is what helped me to get away from just kind of going to the building. And then COVID happened, which helped also because most churches were closed, right? So there was a lot of online going on. And that helped me too because the pressure now to go to the building was no longer there.
• 28:25
  And it helped me to kind of do a lot of my own healing and soul searching. And then I realized too, I don't need to be in the building. I don't have to be there. Like, me and God are cool over here by us. We're good.
• 28:38
  And that that was has been really helpful. So just the fact that I have the time and and I have the encouragement from them, while their faith is very strong, they just don't have the same church trauma that I do, religious trauma that I do. And they're very, very strong in what they do and what they believe. They also do not and have never, which has never believed that God, feels any kind of way about people who are non hetero or gender conforming or any of those things. They have never believed that.
• 29:13
  I I can't go any further into that because that goes into, like, their childhood and stuff, and I don't have access I mean, I don't have permission to get into that. But I think that's where a lot of it comes from is is how they were raised, who they were raised by in those formative years. And and that's why I think they're as, strong and steadfast more so than I am.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: That's amazing. Thank you for sharing with good boundaries.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I tried they know I'm on the podcast, so they know that we're talking, but they didn't give me permission to go all off into their personal stuff. I could text them and ask them, but No. That's okay.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: I that's okay. I don't wanna be in their personal stuff. I just appreciate it. Like, even the husband was like, I don't know if I can ever come on the podcast again because I was literally trying to come out, and I got attacked by the people who I thought would be the safest. And it wounded him.
• 30:09
  It hurt him. Said he said, I thought that the LGBT community were the people who accepted people who don't fit anywhere else. And so it's been a really hard piece for him, and and he's done a lot of therapy on that already. But
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, good.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: So then a couple of weeks ago he came up and he said, so there's this show I saw and I wonder if it has to do with DID and maybe we can talk about that. And I was like, do you wanna come back on the podcast? And he said, well, we're not gonna talk about sex. I said, Tim told me a year ago we never should have. So we're we're trying and we're healing from that and doing our own therapy, and and we'll keep that off.
• 31:01
  Like, I'm not here to do a spin off podcast about our coming out story and how we navigated that, But I want to say that we navigated it beautifully. We are co parenting very well. And not even co parenting. I learned a new word. We are parallel parenting.
• 31:20
  Parallel parenting. Yes. Yes.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Got it. Yes. Oh, that's cute. Wait a minute. Maybe I'm jumping the gun here.
• 31:32
  Coming out. Wait. Wait a minute. You're trying to be, you're sneaking something in without sneaking it in.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: I am. What I'm going to talk about now is how this is so helpful for me because I have to talk about this religious trauma. I do not want to make the podcast a religious podcast. That's not what it's going to be. It's not going to be a gay podcast.
• 31:58
  It's not spinning off in that direction, but it is part of my memory time work. Okay. And it's going to come up because I have these, everything that happened to me in college, which people already know from the book and from the roomies episode and the hallelujah episode where my friend from college came on. Her roommate is about to be on the podcast, so people will hear about that. But also, my father was the music minister.
• 32:25
  And there's a lot there that I need to work on and through in therapy, regardless of what parts of that end up on the podcast. What is important to me is that as I try to be more and more non binary, and I don't mean in my presentation because I feel like I'm already pretty truly myself. Like Yeah. I just a pretty plain girl that shaped like SpongeBob, and it just is. Like Oh
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: my god. You are not. Stop it.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: So so no. I don't mean that mean to myself. I just mean, like, sometimes I wear makeup. Sometimes I don't. Most of the time, I don't.
• 33:06
  I like, it's just not important to me. I Yeah. I have other I would rather read a book than spend an hour on my hair. The hair time, all my hair spoons go to my daughter.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: So Yeah. Those braids, I'm sure.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: Oh my do you know that Mary for her first week of eighth grade, because she's turned 14 now and because I worked really, really hard to save up $800,000, not really, but she bought her first box braids.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Don't be alright.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: She's so proud of herself. She's walking around strutting in front of the boys. I'm like, listen, child.
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: Man. Got some box braids. She's 14, honey. She's gonna
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: be talking about a boyfriend pretty soon.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. She looked 10 years older coming out of her pigtails. It was amazing. Well, that's the other thing that happens is the kids were like, we wanna have a podcast because they heard us talking about the podcast, and they haven't done one in a long time. And so they wanted to do one before they went back to school.
• 34:09
  So I just hit record, and we were at the breakfast table, and they just took off. And it was all about being a teenager and about all these things and not having sex yet or boundaries or this or that. Like, it was amazing in the context of them. I don't know if we'll get more hate mail about that, but that's coming up too because that's what's happening in our lives. What's happening in therapy, learning that touch can be good.
• 34:35
  What's happening in relationships, that sex does not have to be harmful. It's what's happening with the outside kids as they move from children to being teenagers, and learning about their bodies and everything changing. It's what's happening as their developmental stages reflect some pretty significant trauma ages in our life. It's like we can't not talk about it.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Right. We
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: This is life. Right.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: This is life.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: And we are, I mean, we still have a long way to go in therapy. I know that. But we're not anymore at the beginning stages of who is in here and what is your name and how do I know how to talk to you? Like, this is really just leveling up of, okay, you're here, what do I do with you?
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: What do I do with you? Yeah, what do we do now?
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: Right, you're here. What is it that you need and how can I respond to that? Yeah. And so my therapist calls it leveling up, where it's really not just like phase two or something, like we all joke about that because of the workbooks and everything that's out there. But it's really a different thing of like, okay, this is me.
• 35:54
  And if I'm really truly accepting me and all of who I am, then what am I going to do about that?
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. What are you what are we gonna do?
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Well, you brought a giant unicorn. Love her so much. She's looking at her. Right. So if parts of me are not bad by default.
• 36:19
  Mhmm. If I am not bad by default, then that includes I mean, then that means embracing Molly who has a faith. Yes. Years of study, years of study of different religions, not even just one particular one, to develop her own faith in her own way. Means doctor e and all the nerdy brain stuff and what she knows.
• 36:51
  It means embracing the Sasha ish ones who are more playful but more grown. It means talking to littles, which I don't want to do, but I'm having to get there and you keep showing the unicorn. It is the biggest stuffy I've ever seen in my life.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's it's huge. It's it's almost as tall as I am and I'm five feet tall.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. It's amazing. It's amazing. But that's exactly it. How do I if everything I have learned so far, whether that's on the podcast or with the interviews or with therapy or with stuff we've read or groups we've gone to, if all of those things have taught me all of what I've learned so far, then what am I gonna do about it?
• 37:42
  Because I want to heal and I want to get better. And I don't mean any offense to people who just like how they are and they're comfortable with it. That's Okay. Me, for me, my DID is trauma based and it is distressing and it interferes with functioning and I want to get better. Yeah.
• 38:04
  So that is my starting place in my own story of what am I gonna do about it?
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: And this is where you all are now or starting to be in therapy? What are we going to do about it?
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: Well, what we have to do about it is, you know, therapy.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Which some people hate, but you guys are working through it.
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: Well, we had all this time of learning about DID and this whole season of learning who we are and what DID means to us. And then we had this year of doing therapy for the trauma of quarantine and losing our previous therapist and all of that. And now we are back in therapy for therapy. Not just about those pieces. And so it's really digging in and it is much harder in lots of ways.
• 38:59
  That's why she calls it leveling up, but it's also better.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I could see it being better because, like you said, you're not where you guys were trying to figure out who's who and what are we doing, who's on third. And I can also see it being harder because you bypass that. Now you're trying to figure out what do we all do. And everyone has an opinion about what they wanna do.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: Right, right. So that was the whole question that brought up the Seasons of Love episode is just, I'm acknowledging these parts. I'm acknowledging these traumas that happened even in marriage, even if he's not a terrible person. This piece was traumatizing to me. This piece is missing.
• 39:44
  How do I heal that traumatizing piece? How do I find what is missing? How do I navigate all that? And in ways that are safe and healthy, where I am tended to, he has what he needs, the children are not abandoned, what is that going to look like? That's all we meant for that conversation to be.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And because that that to me sounds like a very hard conversation. Because how how do you how do you I'm not a mother. So not biologically anyway. So I see that you all are parallel parenting.
• 40:23
  And that's great because I'm sure that the kids are all good. But, like, what about you two as individuals? Because, I mean, clearly, you like the ladies. So, how do how do you work that out? How do you manage that in order for both of you to eventually get to a place where you fulfill feel fulfilled, happy and content?
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Right. Right. Well, deleted all those episodes. But but but we're okay. And now it's like, okay.
• 40:59
  I have the strength and the resources and the support to feel that I am filled back up, that I have a reservoir again of spoons instead of being so depleted as I was that I was in collapse. Like Yeah. So part of me, like, I want to just keep that to myself of Yeah. Now that I feel so good, I just want to avoid therapy and avoid parenting and avoid all the hard conversations. But I can't because that's not healing and that's not moving And so instead using that energy and those spoons and that reservoir for good, I am better at parenting than I was two years ago because I'm not used up.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right?
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: I am better at work because I'm not working on assignments that trigger me, that set me off, that activate me, that add to my trauma.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: There's no reason for me to be working in a war zone.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: No. I never understood why they kept sending you to those places. I'm like, excuse me. She was lying there.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Their war. War. This is the same thing I think why even bickering or contention or the drama in the community whenever that happens, which not often, and we try to circumvent that. But I think that's why we're so sensitive to it and watch out for it because war, for any of us who are trauma survivors, war should not be our baseline.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: Whether that's domestic violence growing up or specific kinds of abuse or historical trauma, it is not okay. That's the whole point. And so changing Yeah. Even my workplace and changing how I do my job or what work that I have so that I am safe even at work, Like, that's how you, that's what you do about it. Like when we say, this is who we are, what are we gonna do about it?
• 43:18
  That's what we do. We make changes that are That's a huge change. Every area.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Good job.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: But also stay in therapy.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: That's the hard part.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: It is hard. It is hard. So another question for you, which maybe changes the subject, but I'm curious. We have tried in the community to start the group for support people, like partners, for example, of those with DID. And we've gotten some people to join the groups to word out a little bit that it's there, but they just don't participate.
• 43:58
  And you even tried to show up for Zoom meetings for a while, but no one was coming. What do you think makes it so hard?
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: I think either there's a lot going on at home with the partner and they just don't have the energy and the drive, because I've been there, where you just don't wanna hear it. You're just wiped out. There's a lot going on. So I think it's either that and or, they just are not comfortable yet because it's not very easy to, talk about the what you go through as a supporter, for a partner. It feels sometimes like you're betraying your partner and your relationship when you talk about what's going on in the relationship.
• 44:54
  I think it's probably more so that than anything because it sometimes it does feel very much like you're betraying them. So maybe it's that. But those are my only two things that I think. Because I've seen them active. Like, they'll hop in on other posts here and there, and to support or to ask a question, and then you won't see them again for weeks or months.
• 45:15
  So I think that it's very much those two things that they feel either, A, that there's some betrayal going on, or, B, there's just too much going on with the partner that they don't have enough when you all call spoons to deal with it. I mean, when they were cutting up last year, oh, girl. Mm-mm. No. No.
• 45:37
  Because I'm not especially when it was really bad, like, when they were wandering around the woods in circles and crap, let me tell you, I was to my limit. And the last thing I wanted to do was talk about trauma and be be supportive. And I I did not want any anything to do with that. So it's those two things.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: So it stirs up almost as much as it helps as far as spoons and inlays.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Yes. It definitely sparks a lot of stuff because you're like, I don't wanna talk about this I'm living in. Right? And there's really not much that anyone can do because a lot of times as a supporter, you're looking for answers and you don't learn until later like I did, and I'm still learning that there aren't any quick answers. Some of this shit, some of this stuff, you just have to walk it out.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: You just have to walk it out and everyone is not going to walk it out and everyone doesn't know how to walk it out. So I think it's just that. I wouldn't push it necessarily. And I just think that they probably just need some time. Because like I said, I've seen them.
• 46:44
  They're some of them are are active sporadically.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: It's so hard. And that's a big piece about not wanting to betray the safety when there are so many different people inside or parts inside that really need so much safety and trust is so hard to build. And even if you're not betraying anything on accident or on purpose, for that to even open the system a little bit is so And hard to that's funny, not hilarious, but funny or interesting in that opening up that system is really part of what brings healing. But it's such a slow process to do that.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know. See, my love situations, it just seems different because, like, when I've read over some of the posted things in the community or even on some of the podcast episodes over the years, it seems like other systems have had, like, this time of trying to peel back this onion layer. And the crew, they just kinda busted in the door one day. So I don't know what's wrong with them.
• 47:57
  They didn't take their time and work anything out. One day everybody was just like, hey, I'm so and so. Nice to meet you. And I'm just like, What? Okay.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: Well, and it's so different for everybody, right? Know that there are times of some aspects of therapy being easier than others. And when it's in one of those intense periods or when things, when your partner is really struggling, then it is like an active trauma for you. As far as your brain is concerned. Even if cognitively you understand this is their stuff, they have a therapist, they're trying to deal with it.
• 48:40
  It's harder when they won't go to therapy or won't do the work. Those kinds of situations really limit what your options are. When they are doing the work and there is progress being made and there is healing happening, then it does free up a lot of spoons both to tend to the relationship and to get support from outside it.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: I agree with that. When they were not in therapy and they were just wilding out, there was nothing that that I could really contribute, not only to them, but to the podcast or anything, because there was nothing to work with. They were completely just in, you know, we're not doing anything except whatever our primal desire is to do, which is to live in the woods. But now that they have been in consistent therapy with the good therapist and in the trial or the study or what have you, things are 10 times better because they're doing their own work. And that is what has made the difference in being able to talk and talk about more things openly with the community and with them.
• 49:50
  So the betrayal, it it doesn't it's not there. I mean, they've always known that you and I have spoken, and I've always made sure to get, you know, the okay before I I run anything of their personal business, usually by you and all. So they know that there's trust there. But as a partner, when they're struggling or when they were struggling, to not have that does feel very, like, very much like a betrayal. Because it's like, they're not here.
• 50:18
  They don't know that I'm saying this. Even though if I bring this up, I might be able to help them out, they're so right now gone that there's nothing that I can say. And then you feel like also, this is my partner. I don't want people to think badly about them. I don't want people to think that they're, worse off than they are.
• 50:37
  I don't want people to think that they're stuck in their trauma. You know what mean? Like, we talk about that on the podcast stuff a lot. Like, you know, this person's stuck, and they're still here. When you're the partner, you still feel protective even when they're not at their best.
• 50:51
  So that you know, I think a lot of it for the people who just aren't into it, it's it's gotta be one of those two things. I don't see it being anything else because other than that, all they have to do is tap in and be like, hey, how's it going? But there's probably just a lot going on with the partner and some betrayal, maybe some betrayal that they feel. Oh, no, you're fine. I just said that's unfortunate.
• 51:14
  I know what that feels like.
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and I think that's a big piece that builds trust is even your example of just being aware that that's an issue and being in tune. Like that is attunement. Even if you can't fix anything or sometimes even can't tend to it directly, just being aware and being present even from afar sometimes makes all the difference in the world.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: That's what I hear. That's what I heard. I'm glad that they're better. Just know that because I was I was out the door. But they do they have a great therapist and and that has really helped a lot.
• 51:59
  So yeah, I think I think that that's it, which is kind of why they push it on the partner Zooms either. I think I I put a note in there, like, once or twice, and then I just backed off because I was like, I I kinda prob I kinda feel where they're probably at, and I just left it. Especially one of the men. I remember reading a post and he and his wife his wife was struggling with something and he had put a post out. So I kinda felt like, you know, they're they're having a hard time right now.
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: Right. Feel like resources for partners is one of the most requested things, but they don't have the spoons and privacy to actually access them even when it's offered.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I, I wanna write something one day. I, I definitely, me and the, me and the loves have talked about that. I'm definitely gonna write me a little book one day soon about being the partner to a survivor. From ours and from our aspect, not from like a clinical because I'm not into all of that.
• 53:05
  But yeah, you if you want the resources, I mean, there's not a whole lot out there. So when you find some, jump on it. It'll help get you through.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: Otherwise, you just feel alone. And
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: it's so counterintuitive because you can't fix it. Like, see that with with his the husband's depression, or I see that with the children in foster, adopted from foster care, right? Like, doesn't matter how much we love them or how long they've lived with us. We can't undo the hurt that they endured before they
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: Right, came to You can't. You can try to support them in in their healing journey. You can try to support, and you can learn things yourself. You can do all of your research. You know, that's what I was doing when I first started.
• 53:54
  Remember, you can read all the books. You can do the things to help yourself and you can be a support to them, but you can't fix any of it. You can't go back in time as much as you want to. You can't go find those parents and, you know, do bad things to them that you wanna do. You can't do that.
• 54:11
  None of that's gonna fix it. And that's a hard place to be too because you very much want to because that's the person that you are in relationship with. That's the person you love, so you want to fix it, but you can't. And every day you have to remind yourself that you can't. But they have a therapist who can help them to work out and work through what they have to.
• 54:34
  And so, I know for us, that freed me up a lot. Once they decided to do their own work with their therapist, I don't have to try to do that work anymore.
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: But what's going on? Did you do it? Did you take your manicure? Did you do did you do your homework? Are you gonna I don't have I don't do none of that, girl, no more.
• 54:53
  None of it. I can just be the partner.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: It's so funny, I sort of went through a similar thing where I stopped enabling everybody's stuff. Like I got to the point in therapy where I realized part of why I was so exhausted was because I was doing so much for other people instead of just caring or tending. And
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: when I
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: stopped doing that, everything kind of fell apart. Like nobody could function for a week or two because I wasn't rescuing them. And I just watched it all crash and burn. But it's so much better now. It's so like, that toxicity that I don't want in my family because I care about my family.
• 55:35
  Yeah. It's so much healthier and it's so much better and I am so much happier.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: You sound like it. You did not sound like the same person like a year ago when you were just like, well, I'm barely hanging on. And now now you're just like, yeah, we're all here. We're gonna figure out what we're gonna do because I wanted to get healed and I wanna do this. I want you were never talking about all of the things that you wanted to do.
• 56:03
  And now that's all you're talking about.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: It's amazing, Yes,
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: it is because it means that you have hope for a future and you're working toward it.
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I am.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Are you gonna be looking for the man?
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: I've solved a lot of my own problems.
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: Look at you. Did you I mean, this conversation wasn't it wouldn't have been able to happen three years ago. Look at you solving your own problems, girl. I know, right? Okay.
• 56:43
  Okay. I'm proud of you. You're just it's not the same. It's not the same as it was. Mm-mm.
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: Wow. So what's the plan? Why are you can you tell me your business or just tell me now if you can't? Why are you guys parallel parenting?
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: Well, I will I will first tell you thank you for coming on the podcast. I'm so, so excited to see your face and to get to talk to you for a minute.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: And I know. It's been a long time.
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: Right? But I'm glad you're taking care of you. I'm proud of you. I just imagine you out there at karaoke and and that you're all good.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna send you pictures this weekend. I wasn't at karaoke this weekend, but I was at the beach, and I did take a hike.
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: Look at you. That's what I'm Yes. Talking
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: It was wonderful. I do love it to karaoke. It Love it.
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: That's an example. Right? Like, you're reclaiming music.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's my stuff.
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: It's a way.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: It does something. It's a way. It does something. I love it. Thank you so much.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: I'm happy to see you.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you. This was awesome.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before. Not like this. Connection brings healing.