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Becoming Your Authentic Self (with Jeff Goins) · The Daily Writer

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: One of the most important concepts in writing and business today is authenticity.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: We all want to be our authentic selves, and we want to feel that we're seeing other people as they truly are.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: But what does authenticity mean?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you display it as an artist, writer, creative, or a business leader?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, hello, my friend.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: This is Kent Sanders from Equal Ghostwriting.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to this episode of the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: This is the show that helps you grow your business, amplify your authority, and increase your impact through the power of writing.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: As always, I really appreciate you joining me for this episode today.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to bring you this conversation with Jeff Goines, who is the author of several fantastic books, including Real Artists Don't Starve and The Art of Work.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Jeff runs a podcast called The Portfolio Life, and it is a great show where he and his guests teach you how to live a truly creative life.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: And Jeff also ran the Tribe Conference that went for several years in Franklin, Tennessee.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I had the privilege of attending a couple of those, and it was phenomenal.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: I really, really loved that conference.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: So Jeff has his hand in a lot of different things, and all of them have been really, really fun, and they're so creative.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: For many years, I have appreciated Jeff's thoughtful approach to his creative work.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: And in this conversation, we dig into the concept of authenticity and how we should think about this as business owners, writers, and creatives.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: I also dig a little bit into Jeff's new venture as a ghostwriter, which I find fascinating since that's what I'm doing as well.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I had a blast doing this interview, and I trust that you will be blessed by Jeff's thought-provoking ideas as much as I was.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get right to the conversation.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Jeff, welcome to the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you making time to do this.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Happy to be here, Kent.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I actually had something totally different planned for a set of questions I was going to ask about the book you did with Grant Baldwin on uh the successful speaker and some other things.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: But you sent out a really intriguing email to your email list back on Monday about authenticity, and it really sparked my curiosity.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: And because this is a podcast about business writing, and people who listen to this show typically are doing writing as part of their business, whether it's email stuff or blogging or books or whatever it is, marketing stuff.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think creative people who are also doing business writing face this real crossroads where do we give people what they want or do we give them ourselves?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd like to share because those who are listening probably they may or may not have seen this.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh if they're not on your email list, they haven't seen this.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I want to share a couple of paragraphs from that email if that's okay.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: As a way to kind of just set a context because this was really fascinating.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: So this is what you said.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: The truth is I've been lying to myself, playing a role, uh, I thought I was, only to realize there is something deeper beneath the facade I've shared with the world for the past ten years.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Today on Instagram, I made the following confession.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what you had written on Instagram.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Most people spend their whole lives never becoming themselves.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: They settle for a role or a routine, a facsimile of a life they dare to call real.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know I did.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: So afraid of being seen, I settled for quote unquote special, performing and acting my way into your approval, and never once believing the ruse myself.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Some of you bought it, and this only made me sadder because all I ever wanted was to be me.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: That was profound and and and moving and surprising all at the same time.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm wondering if you can elaborate on what did you mean by that?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because those who are listening to this, this podcast, I'm sure they all know who you are and what you've done in your books and what you're about.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Were there some things that have been a part of your public persona the last decade or so that you felt like were a facade or that you felt like weren't really the authentic expression of your creative work?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because by definition, a public life is not uh all of who you are.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: The word facade means door.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Front facing the the front of something, right?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: The facade of a house is the front of the house.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: It is not the house.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not not the house, it's part of the house.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it is the outside, it is the externality of uh, you know, something that has a lot more depth to it.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the inside of the house could be a wreck, it could be beautiful, it could be a mess, it could be anything, but the facade is not the whole thing.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I do not think that a writer necessarily needs to strive to be authentic.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, if you strive to be authentic, you will not be.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because now you will be this thing that lots of people on the internet are doing, which is you will be performing at authenticity.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: You will be engaging in performative authenticity, which I've done before, right?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, of course, yeah.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for me, an email like that uh is um an invitation, just an invitation.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, this is something that I'm exploring, and you're welcome to explore this with me.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've done the thing where I pretend to be someone so that you'll like me, uh, and thinking that it'll make me happy or successful or whatever.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that didn't work.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I'm trying to do now, uh, it didn't work in the sense that it made me happy, it made me somewhat successful.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm trying to do now is explore a little bit more the depths of me and see who wants to uh go down that rabbit hole with me.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, to be honest, Kent, um I'm not one of those people who, you know, wants to blow something up and burn something down.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I engage with clients, I'm working with a lot fewer people uh these days.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um we still sell online courses.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for those who don't know what I do, I write books and teach writers how to succeed, basically, through online courses.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I'm trying to go deeper with fewer people.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been doing that through my ghostwriting practice.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh my assistant and I are working on over a dozen books this year with various authors.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I run a mastermind for creative entrepreneurs of about 30 people.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I always invite people to engage with the work at whatever level they feel comfortable.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh meaning, here's the things that you need to do, the external things that you need to do to succeed, right?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's sort of the surface level.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, start a blog, right?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, start a podcast, write a book, whatever.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are those are the the things that you need to do, the actions that you need to take to get whatever you want to get money, fame, whatever.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, then there's the thing underneath it, which is the reason that you're doing it, which is um, you know, significance maybe, or whatever.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's some reason beneath it, right?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's sort of the level of emotion.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm doing this thing so that I think I'm going to get a feeling.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Plenty of people don't want to go there, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they go, no, no, just tell me how to like make money or publish a book or succeed or whatever.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I have no problem doing that.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: If that's a conversation that we're having, okay, great.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: I did have that conversation with a lot of people for many years and it got boring.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: I bet it did.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because it's like selling drugs.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning, uh, if I'm a doctor, it's a terrible analogy, but if I'm a doctor and you have pain, and I go, here's here's some morphine, right?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's gonna take away the pain for a minute.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then the pain's gonna come back, right?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because the morphine is just numbing the pain.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is the world of personal development, self-help, teaching skills that help people succeed.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is you are taking away temporary pain.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 100%.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it is.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there's nothing wrong with that.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's good.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that we have acetaminophine, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that we have ibuprofen.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that when I get a headache or my back hurts, I can take something that alleviates it.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: But a good doctor would go, why is your back hurting all the time?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the next level, which in the world of helping people, self-help, personal development, whatever you want to call it, uh, skill development.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: The question is, um, what do you think you're going to get out of this?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to tell you how to publish a book and sell 10,000 copies, and why?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you want to do it?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a lot of people would stop there, right?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I think there's a layer beneath that, which is the place that I'm trying to go to with whoever wants to come with me, which is not going to be a lot of people, uh, which is there's the thing that you're doing, uh, you know, and how to do it, right?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Then there's the reason behind it.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Then there is the story that you tell yourself about who you are.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think I'm X.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is my understanding of identity.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm whatever, um a good person or a writer or whatever.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I set a goal because I think it's going to give me this feeling.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the place that I'm interested in going with whoever wants to go there is there is a way to detach from the outcomes of your work.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: There is a way to be in the world where you detach from the outcomes of your work, where you are free to do your work in whatever way.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're free to offer your work to the world as a gift without needing any sort of compensation, recompense, or uh reciprocity.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't need anybody to give you anything to offer this gift.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a way to be an artist, a way to be a writer in the world where you're doing that.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing your work, you're making a living.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not some sort of uh um, you know, uh disassociated reality, but there is a way that I found that I bump into every once in a while where I know who I am and I'm doing my work in such a way uh where I'm detached from it.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: I can succeed, I can fail.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: It is a creation, it's not who I am.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if this is clear, I haven't really worked this out of processing, but if there's sort of three levels of you know being for a writer or artist, one is uh this thing hurts.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Give me some some pain relief.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I need more money.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Teach me how to make an extra thousand dollars a month blogging.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool, I can do that.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Then there's the emotional reason behind it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: When I have more money, I feel better about myself, right?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's not the end of it either, is it?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because then there's a story beneath it, which is who do you think you are?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think is true about the world that if you make an extra thousand dollars a month, you're gonna be happier?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's no right or wrong answer because we do this all the time in our culture.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: We go, money's not gonna make you happier.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: I just would like some more money.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like uh Pablo Picasso said, I would like to live as a pauper but with plenty of money.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're always doing this, we're always double-minded, we're like, I don't care about that, but I need that, right?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's totally fine.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: But there is a story that undergirds that emotion, right?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: The story is this is who I think I am, and it's not true, it's a conditioned self, but you have to at least understand the story to get to the soul, the essence, the true self, whatever you want to call it.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really interested in this.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: This may sound like ooey-gooey-woo-woo stuff for people, and that's fine.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let's stay on the surface and talk about how to make money as a copywriter.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Happy to have those conversations.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I at least have to offer the caveat when I'm trying to help someone, there are layers to this.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And any kind of writing, any kind of creative work eventually becomes soul work.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And there are certain successes, there are certain achievements and breakthroughs that you want in your life, external goals and outcomes that you will not be able to achieve until you do some of this inner work.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I think it's important to at least talk about it.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, why share something like what I shared on my email list?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one, I like sharing things, and I have a loyal enough following that I can take a little bit of risk.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just to be practical, I'm a very pragmatic person.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've I've spent 10 years uh entertaining an audience and helping them.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, like people like you go, oh, this is interesting, you know.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I have a little bit of um leeway there.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And because uh I've worked with over 20,000 people in the past 10 years.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: People have taken courses and bought products and stuff.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um I gave away a lot of pain medication, right?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I handed out a lot of morphine, you know.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and and some of those people are probably morphine addicts now.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so there's an ethical part of this for me, which is um yes, I will help you solve your problem.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to consider the the deeper, bigger picture.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh not, I mean, not just because of like moral reasons, but you know, that's important, but because like the mark of a sustainable business is that you're actually helping people solve long-term problems, so they keep coming back for more.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: If I keep giving you morphine, you're eventually gonna overdose and die.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that that's not good, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I want people to at least ask these questions because I think a lot of a lot of my audience, a lot of creative people are.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there is some there is some sense of of soul work, some question of who I am, who am I and what is this about, and why am I here?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, uh, what do I think this thing is going to give me?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen enough people get disappointed and disillusioned with their own success that um I we need to talk about it, we need to have a conversation about it.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't mean success is the enemy.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean money, fame, whatever are the enemies.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Those are just tools, but you have to understand going into any kind of creative work, um, that the best way to do it is free from attachments in the sense that I'm gonna do this thing and it's gonna make me feel a certain way.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Is that one of the reasons why that you have pivoted at least partly into ghostwriting?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Is because that that does give you a sense of detachment where you can serve someone at a very deep level, but it's not your own books.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's something inherently different about helping someone else with their book behind the scenes as your own stuff.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, are you are you getting something creatively from the ghostwriting process that you don't get from your own books or from something like a tribe conference or whatever?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I ask this partly because I'm ghostwriting now, and so I'm I'm really intrigued by your journey with all that and you're pivoting to that because it's it's unexpected and it's really, really fascinating.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, probably.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I hadn't thought of it like that.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: There is a freedom to it that um uh when I talk about detachment, I I do think it is possible for a creative person to make something and let it go.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Let go a sense of ownership of it.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And when I am my healthiest, I can write something and I can share it with you, Kent, and we can talk about it objectively as this thing.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, well, look at that sunset.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, isn't that beautiful?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or look at that painting.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about that painting?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's an ugly painting, I think it's a beautiful painting.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: I can do that with a piece of writing sometimes uh with uh another person and go, what do you think about this?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about this poem?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't really like this.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure about that.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yeah, I don't know.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me neither.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't what what's what does it need, you know?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is a healthy, good, whole place from which an artist can engage uh their work, and it is a necessary place to get to to approach mastery.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so in regards to um ghostwriting, it is easier.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and initially I started ghostwriting because one, I could write multiple books a year, make more money working on another people's work than working on my own work, just on my own work, because I don't want to write multiple books of my own every year.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, those those ideas take time, they take years to kind of uh germinate and grow into something that I want to share with the world.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, like when I write a book, I I'm committing to promoting it in some way for the rest of my life.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I like the idea of like, hey, pay me some money, I'll write the book.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: There you go, have fun, go, go promote it.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to market it, you don't have to do all that stuff.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, as an author, I mean, that's a whole different set of skills and a whole different kind of energy, writing a book versus promoting a book.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I liked the idea of, hey, I'm gonna write somebody else's book.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be great.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then I give it to them and they do with it whatever they want.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I will say that there's been uh an unexpected positive outcome from this experience.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and, you know, some people have been surprised by that, um, which has surprised me, honestly.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I understand it.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, why don't why not just write your own books?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, one, I can make more money doing this, and that's not a bad reason to do it.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Two, um it's fun.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: I did it because it was fun.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Grant and I worked on a on a book together, and it was fun to help him take his ideas and translate them into a good book.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: The third reason that I do it uh that surprised me, because I thought I needed my name on everything.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I remember talking to my dentist once about it, and he was asking about ghostwriting, and uh, you know, and they're like, so you write a book for somebody else.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I think people lots of people think you write a book to be famous or whatever, right?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: You write a book for somebody else and you let them put their name on it.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, why is that fair?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: How is that fair?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I said to my dentist, I said, sometimes people compliment me on my teeth.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh good point.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: They're my teeth, but it's your work.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Should I tell them that you should I tell them your name?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I said, more importantly, does that bother you that people are complimenting my teeth based on the work that you're doing?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't clean my you know teeth every six months and uh you know, uh and and he goes, No.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: I go, why?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: He said, because you pay me money to render a service to you, and I don't care.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're your teeth.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is the author's ideas.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the writer, the client is the author, they're their ideas, it's their story.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm simply rendering a service and then giving them a product.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I will say, Kent, that um what has been unexpectedly fun about this experience for me as a ghostwriter is the influence that I get.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I really do care about helping good ideas spread.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so if there's three reasons that I ghostwrite, one is I get paid well for it.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, two, it's a fun experience for me that doesn't require any any work after the book is written.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then three, um I get to I get to play with somebody else's ideas and see the impact of those ideas.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'm working with a number of online entrepreneurs, people like Grant, myself, yourself.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm also working with a uh a leader uh in the personal development world who has a tremendous amount of impact and influence.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this is uh her kind of magnum opus.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she's she's approaching the last part of her life, and this is this is the thing that she wants to leave with the world.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: This is a legacy.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: She's been in the personal development world for 35 years.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like so you get to a point where it's like, well, why don't you write your own books?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because I couldn't write that book.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working on a book with a Navy SEAL about how to create culture in teams.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can't write that book, you know.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I wasn't uh, you know, he has stories of you know doing this uh middle of the night invasion somewhere in the Middle East and having to completely change the plan at the last minute because the thing that they thought was true about their circumstances wasn't.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And here's how to do that.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how to lead a team like that to completely change things.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm learning so much about different experiences and worldviews and ways of being in the world.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's such an enriching experience, and I'm so honored to get to partner with a person who has brilliant ideas and needs help translating those into a book that can help other people.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's incredible.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I know that you're a big music fan.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: I know that you're a guitarist as well.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Something that has been fascinating to me in talking with people about ghostwriting is that we attach uh some kind of importance to a name on a book that we don't we don't apply that same principle to other types of creative work.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: For example, if you listen to uh Michael Jackson's thriller album album from the early 80s, it has his name on it, but you know that that that would never have happened without Quincy Jones.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Never in a million years.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Why is it that books are different in that people seem to become annoyed at the idea of ghostwriting?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, people who don't know about it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: They seem to be almost offended by that prospect of someone else did the work, but another person's name is on it.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Why do we treat books differently than other types of creative work that we know are collaborative things like songs or musical performances or even movies?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why that is, but we somehow we put books in a different category than other types of work.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Type of creative work?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know that that's true about music.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: I know that uh you and I know that, uh, but there are plenty of people, like when Beyonce's Lemonade album came out, uh, I wrote about this in Real Artists Don't Starve.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: There was something like, I don't know, 20 or 30 credited writers on that record.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like more writers than songs, right?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So lots of collaborations.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember reading a piece about that basically saying Beyonce is not a real artist because she got help from all these other people.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I live in Nashville.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a lot of friends in the music business.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, my friend Dave Barnes is a great example of this like good, solid, mid-list artist uh who has written songs for A-list uh, you know, platinum selling, multi-platinum selling uh artists, uh, and they're singing his song, right?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I think most people aren't super aware of that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're more aware of it with music and film, especially with films, because it's like the person on the screen is like there's a hundred people behind the camera with that one person on the screen.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I think the answer to your question is celebrity.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh, and celebrity is a very old thing.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: We don't realize this.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, human beings have always wanted to put other human beings on pedestals.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: We used to call it royalty.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Think about this.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: There used to be a royal court where you had not just the kings and queens and princes and whatever, uh, you also had uh all the people who were part of the court life, kind of like their friends and family and extended family members and people who just kind of got to be a part of uh you know the cool club.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this was a place, the court was a place like in medieval society, uh, where people drant dressed really fancy.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was a life of privilege, they didn't really have jobs.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um they uh they were always kind of on the cutting edge of fashion and style, and it was a place of gossip.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was a place of talking about other people.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you know, she did this and they did that, and it was it was it was a place of um gossip, deceit, uh lots of you know, sort of political mind games, um, because they really don't have anything else to do, right?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, compare that to a place like Hollywood, right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, or any number of places now um where you've got sort of this group of elite people that we're all paying attention to.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what do they do?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's lots of gossip, you know, there's lots of conversations about things, there's lots of fashion, uh, and and they're sort of on display.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not like denigrating the work of you know uh celebrity artists and um uh what have you, but like they make a phenomenal uh amount of money uh compared to the average person.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're on a pedestal and we talk about them and we sort of worship them.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we and human beings have always done this.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: We've done this with kings, we've done this with priests, we've done this with there are special people that have access to something that the rest of us don't, and we're sort of making them like deities, right?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're gods' representations uh on earth.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that that was sort of the rule of divine right in medieval society was the king is placed here by God, so you revere the king and therefore kind of all of the kingly royal people in his orbit as you would a god.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: How is that different from an author like J.K.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Rowling, you know, uh, where there's a big long line of people who want to get close to her, you know, to have her write her name on their book.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's wonderful and great and kind of absurd.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, why do we get upset when we find out there's a whole team of people?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because you this is true with books, aside from ghostwriting, it's like these aren't my ideas.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Did you read the bibliography?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everything really is a remix.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I would invite any listener who's having trouble with the idea of lone genius to Google everything as a remix and watch that YouTube video.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because like all of your favorite songs and films and books have been done before, and stories, you know, have been done before in some way by somebody else.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the historian Will Durant said, nothing is new except arrangement.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: What am I doing with a book?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm taking other people's stories, other people's ideas, and I'm rearranging them, sharing a little bit of my story, my voice, my perspective.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: But these are not new ideas.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're a remix, they're a rearrangement of other people's ideas.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: So being a ghostwriter is just another uh layer of abstraction, right?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just I'm I'm if if if I'm your client, you're helping me rearrange my idea of somebody else's ideas, right?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And stories and what have you.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but I totally get it.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people hear about whatever, like Donald Trump, the art of the deal, and he didn't write that, he had a ghostwriter.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course he did.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like anybody's surprised by that.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like 90% of every celebrity memoir or you know, uh anchor, woman, or man or whatever, you know, like uh, you know, on Fox News or CNN who like writes some book uh or political leader or CEO, like they're usually not writing their own books.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so what?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you mad that they don't answer their own email?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Some people are.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but anybody who understands uh the business world, like these people aren't writers, they're speakers, communicators, leaders, entrepreneurs.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, why would you expect them to do something that um isn't really their job?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it is interesting, and I do think the answer is celebrity.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Why do people get upset about it?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because that person puts their name on the book.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't know what you're, you know, uh how what you do, Kent, but uh sometimes people ask me about ghostwriting, like, isn't that dishonest?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And first of all, it in some part of the book, a ghostwriter is often named, even if it's in the acknowledgments.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and with the books that I work on, I leave it up to the author because it really is their idea.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: In the same way that like you didn't you don't necessarily put the editor's name of a book on the cover, but they were very involved in the arrangement of those ideas and words.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that that really is when I work with an author, like it's their ideas, it's their words.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just kind of arranging them in a way that makes it sound better.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I leave it up to the author.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like in Grant's case, uh we both agree that it was good to put my name on the cover, both for the success of the book, and he really wanted it.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I don't care.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's what the that's what the money's for.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: You pay me to do the work, and then it belongs to you, and that's that's great.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm happy to do my job.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need my my dentist to put his name on my teeth.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: That would be weird.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great perspective.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: So helpful.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: One final thing I want to ask about is uh is how you use social media.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: I am fascinated by your your comments on Facebook and your posts and other places.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because and the reason I say that is because so many authors and people who are in online business and they they're doing they're putting out content and books and so forth, is they have a very sort of a measured strategy for all the things they're pumping out and whatnot.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I love the fact that most of your Facebook posts have nothing to do with any of that, they're just great questions and observations, and sometimes they seem out of the blue.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I love that.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: So when when you go on Facebook, do you have any kind of strategy for what you're doing?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it just here's what's happening in my life, here's a question I want to throw out there, let's build community and talk about it.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean, I think it's helpful to understand why people do what they do.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I remember uh for years, sort of on my blog mimicking the style that copy blogger used on their blog.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I got like super nerdy about it where I was like inspecting the element of the, you know, like reading the HTML code, reading the HTML code of each blog post.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like they went from an H1 tag, which you know, nobody like who anybody who doesn't care about HTML is not gonna be interested in this, but they went from an H1 tag.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: I know what you're talking about.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: I've done it with an H3 tag for the for the H1 was the headline H3, not H2, which would be sort of the normal this descent.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they use an H3 subhead, and I was like, okay, that looks cool.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's what Copy Blogger does, that's what I'll do.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like two years into doing this, I remember like emailing Brian Clark, who who founded Copyblogger, became a friend of mine, and I just asked him, why do you do that?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, you know, I don't remember.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: We just have always done it that way.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was like the old pot roast, you know, cut off the two ends of the pot roast story.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think we have to be careful mimicking what we see people doing without understanding why they're doing it.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like, you know, whatever.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Seth Godin doesn't have blog comments, so should I not have blog comments.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well he is a he is very, he's a very measured, intentional person.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's a reason for everything that he does.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: So don't mimic the external without understanding the internal.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think it's really, really important.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for me, I my content strategy is once a week I write an article and record a podcast uh that it has something to do with creative work.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then I take pieces of that and I cut that up and distribute it uh through social media as sort of mini posts.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is often what I do.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that so you know, I'm a blogger, I'm a writer, I want my ideas to spread.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I start with one big idea for the week and then and then cut that post up into little pieces of content that are relevant for each um social media channel.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Social media for me is also a feedback mechanism, it's a way to throw to test things, to do sort of micro experiments.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: So uh and it's a it's a way to express myself and share what's going on.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: And like that's important too.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: When you see somebody on social media who's just a content marketing machine, you see a personal brand, an individual who's just like pumping out all kinds of DS.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just like it feels flat.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: People don't want to connect with ideas on the internet, they want to connect with people, and through those people, they want to experience new ideas.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you have to trust the person.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if all you're doing is like posting, I don't know, tweetables or like silly little aphorisms, but there's no humanity to it, that's going to work for a certain kind of audience.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work for me, and it's not how I want to show up in the world and how I want to connect with people.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do that in a way where there's some depth, as I've already as we already talked about earlier.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm interested in going as deep with the audience as they want to go, because that is important to me.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's fun.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: I just enjoy that.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I would rather go deeper with fewer people than um have a larger audience and stay on the surface.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I did that for a while.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was not very fulfilling.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: So to go back to you know why I sent that email, probably in part to sort of draw a line and go, if this offends you, like, you know, the fact that I was faking it and you liked it, and we're gonna go a little bit deeper now, like I'm then I'm not interested in you know, engaging with you.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can unsubscribe if you want.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't have to help everyone, I don't want to.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh social media.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when I ask questions on Facebook, people think there's some sort of engagement strategy.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: I ask questions because I want to know the answer, and I'm often not sure what I think about it.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you're talking about my personal Facebook profile, uh, which you know has uh several thousand followers and people that follow it.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: But really, what I I care deeply about is the fact that uh in my life, and maybe in your life too, um, I have two groups of people that um revealed themselves uh when Trump uh became president.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Very liberal.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of very liberal friends, uh, liberal and progressive, and I have a lot of very conservative friends.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I live in Tennessee, uh and you know, kind of in the middle of the Bible belt.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a lot of like conservative evangelical friends, and and I have a lot of like uh, you know, I I work in a field where I work with a lot of people in New York and LA, and so there, you know, there's a lot of um uh liberal and progressives that I know.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: And these people uh are often unaware of how the other side sees the world, and these are my friends, and so I will ask questions because I want I I do think that the solution to the problem of you know world peace or whatever is is understanding, actual understanding.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I see you, I can't hate you.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Really, when I understand you, um, I cannot hate you.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: I can hate an idea of you, I can hate a story about you in my head.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: When you actually experience another person, I don't believe you can hate them.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm sure somebody can find a you know a situation where that's true.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: But in general, when I really connect with somebody that I have conflict with and I understand the reason for why they did something that I hated or offended me or hurt me or whatever, um, I can bring compassion to that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I am very interested in getting people to understand each other.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: I will be honest, it hasn't gone that well.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: People tend to people tend to double down on their biases.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, they do.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it is fascinating to watch.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: I am curious about the way that other people see the world and and I and I want to learn.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: I so I will say strategically, social media is a place where I practice in public, meaning I try little things to see how they resonate.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: I write up, I'm writing a lot of poetry, so I'll share a poem on um Instagram.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is this a place that I could take my audience where they're interested in in you know deeper, more creative content?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, a lot of those posts get very good responses.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, well, that's that's fascinating.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm finding that when I take risks with my platform, I engage in deeper vulnerability.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it gives other people courage.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that is very rewarding.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: I posted something recently about race.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it wasn't uh, it was to other people like me who were um blind to their own privilege.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and I, you know, shared a little bit of that um in in in light of you know uh recent events.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um and had several people actually message me saying I did this as a result of that post.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, wow, this is really cool.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do more of this.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: This feels very meaningful.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm starting to feel you know the weight of the responsibility of having people follow you and pay attention to you.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh, you know, it's not a ton of people, but it's enough that I consider that the responsibility of that, the weight of that, and I want to um uh I want to steward that well.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Jeff, this has been so great.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's been so helpful.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that you've given us a lot of good stuff to think about.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: No, thanks.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: And um hopefully I can decipher my chicken scratches when I go back through some notes later.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the main reasons this is so helpful is because those of us who are in some kind of an online business, we're involved in creating content and that sort of stuff.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a big temptation to present yourself as this I'm this upstanding person who has it all together and I've always got to make sure I have a shiny image.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: But but it it seems like that we're entering a time and an age where people are craving more vulnerability and authenticity.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe the best thing we can do for our business is just being more of ourselves and letting that be our gift to the world instead of some facade or some image, like you've been talking about.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, here's I think we have to be careful with being authentic.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I'm hiring you to be a ghostwriter, I don't want you to be authentic.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: But in order for me to trust you, I have to get some empathy from you.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Donald Miller talks about this in his book, Building a Story Brand, to trust a brand, which is not what you are, but what you have, right?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: You have a brand, you aren't a brand.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a facade.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: But for some people who like the facade, you may open the door and say, Come on in, come into the living room, right?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then eventually you may say, Hey, we, you know, come into the kitchen, let's let's have a glass of wine, I'll make you dinner.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you get to decide, this is very important, I think.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: You get to decide as a brand what rooms in your house people get to see.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I do think that there is something um vulnerable and beautiful and important about for certain people who knock on the door, opening the door and say, Would you like to come in?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: That is an act of vulnerability.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not everything all at once.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not telling the world all of my things because it's none of their business.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I am learning to open doors and you know, pull back shades and let people see beyond the facade, uh, because those are parts that uh are worth sharing as well.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think in work, uh, we have to have both authority and empathy.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Don Miller says this in his book.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you have to have done something or be able to do something that people need.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to be able to empathize with the stuckness that people feel.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so vulnerability, opening the door, pulling back a shade, letting somebody peek into the window is a way of saying, I get it, I've been there too.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a lot more to show you.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if you trust me, I'll I'll lead you to where we can both go.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, vulnerability is a gift that you first give to yourself and then you give to the world.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: It happens gradually, not all at once.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's a responsible way to do it.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: And in work, you do it so that people can trust you, uh, so that you can help them uh more.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Jeff, speaking of gifts, I uh before we wrap this up, I want to say thank you for giving me so many gifts over the years of your writing.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: Going to the tribe conference a couple of times, that was really a gift.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um literally one time it was a gift because someone, this is kind of a weird.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: I remember that.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody on my email list, um, her name was Joanne.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: She had the year previous, she had won a free ticket.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you did a drawing or something.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: And she couldn't go, so she just gave me her ticket, which was really, really cool.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: So literally it was a gift.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: But what a great experience.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I hope in the future that uh I don't know what what's on the horizon for conferences and gatherings and stuff, but man, Tribe was so good.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: I I hope that there's something like that in the future on some level.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: I hope so too.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Jeff, thanks so much.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, where can our listeners go to find out more about your books, your writing, and all the cool stuff that you're doing?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Go to my website, goinswriter.com, g-o-i-n-s-writer.com.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm pretty active on Instagram at Jeff Goins.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to shoot me a DM, I read and respond to all of those.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Jeff, thanks again.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: We really appreciate this.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Kent.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I had a blast doing this interview with Jeff.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: I learned a ton, as I always do from Jeff.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: And here are my three biggest takeaways.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: Number one, let go of a sense of ownership of your creative work.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is a tough one for most of us because if you think of yourself as an artist, then you have a very close relationship and a connection to your creative work.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: However, it seems healthier to approach your public creative work as a product that you are creating for consumption by other people.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you're selling your work on any level, that's really what it is.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's a product that will be consumed and purchased by other people.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it's healthy to view your work as an independent creation that exists outside of you.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Number two, Jeff does ghostwriting because it pays well and it's a fun experience.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: And even though I'm a lot newer to ghostwriting than Jeff is, that's been my experience as well.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: There is a joy and a fulfillment that I get from writing for others that I don't get with my own stuff.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, he is correct, if you have the right clients, it does pay well.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Number three, Jeff creates one post slash podcast per week and then splits those up on social media into smaller chunks.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a fantastic way to repurpose your content.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked about repurposing content a lot on the show before, but I'm so glad that Jeff reiterated that because I think it's a wonderful strategy.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I want to give a huge thank you to my guest, Jeff Goines.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure to check out his podcast, his blog, books, and everything else at GoinsWriter.com.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you so much for listening.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: As always, remember that you can find lots more resources for writers at KentSanders.net.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, remember that your writing has the power to change people's lives.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'll see you in the next episode.