Latest / Go Wildly Podcast / Ep. 13 | How Claiming Heritage and Healing Through Adventure Shapes a Wild Life

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Ep. 13 | How Claiming Heritage and Healing Through Adventure Shapes a Wild Life · Go Wildly Podcast

• 0:02
  Hey, hey, and welcome to episode Lucky number 13 of the Go Wildly
• 0:06
  podcast. And buckle up because this one
• 0:09
  is coming at you live from the Rogue River.
• 0:11
  Mother Rogue herself. Yep, you're going to hear the
• 0:14
  wind on this one, and you're going to hear some Rapids and
• 0:17
  maybe even a bird squawking at us for interrupting its lunch.
• 0:20
  It's all a part of the vibe, don't worry.
• 0:22
  So treat the background noise like sound effects from Mother
• 0:25
  Nature herself, because that's what it is.
• 0:28
  Today we have somebody very, very special on Paris Geha.
• 0:31
  She's a mental health counselor, coach and clinical herbalist who
• 0:34
  basically fuses therapy with play, adventure and a deep
• 0:38
  connection to nature and her Ryukan heritage.
• 0:42
  Think adventure therapy, somatic practices, dogs as Co therapists
• 0:46
  and just this deep rooted sense of belonging to the earth.
• 0:50
  Like she makes healing feel wild and alive Again.
• 0:53
  We get into it. Her stories and nature that
• 0:56
  cracked her open. How heritage matters in the work
• 0:59
  of becoming whole and what adventure based counseling
• 1:02
  actually looks like out in the real messy magical world.
• 1:06
  Oh, and big announcement for here on the pod.
• 1:08
  The pod is now dropping on Mondays because honestly,
• 1:12
  Mondays deserve something a little better than emails and
• 1:15
  meetings. So here we are, sliding into
• 1:17
  your week with the river sounds and wisdom.
• 1:20
  So sit back, soak it in. Better yet, get outside while
• 1:23
  you listen. This is episode 13 with Paris
• 1:26
  Bija, and it's about to get wildly good.
• 1:29
  Let's go wildly the. Mics, yeah.
• 1:33
  So it doesn't matter like if we're facing each other or if
• 1:36
  the like footage is facing weird angles.
• 1:42
  It's. All real.
• 1:44
  I love it. I love my fuzzy.
• 1:48
  Or windscreen are my flip flops in the middle right there by
• 1:50
  your feet. They are.
• 1:51
  Do you want them? Nope.
• 1:52
  OK. I just wanted to make sure
• 1:54
  they're here. OK.
• 1:55
  Hi. Hi, hi.
• 1:57
  Welcome to today's episode of Go Wildly podcast.
• 2:01
  Are we calling it the Go Wildly podcast or just Go Wildly
• 2:04
  podcast? Just whatever.
• 2:05
  Flows OK. I think it's both relative, like
• 2:07
  both the RF can be the same. Yeah, like both are true.
• 2:11
  We're not strict. Great.
• 2:14
  That's excellent. Love that clarification.
• 2:16
  We're here today. We're launching from Indian Mary
• 2:19
  boat ramp on the Rogue River in Josephine County and we're going
• 2:22
  to float down to Ennis boat ramp still on the Rogue River in
• 2:25
  Josephine County. And we're joined today by Paris
• 2:29
  Eha. Hi, a clinical herbalist and
• 2:33
  therapist and all around wonderful, amazing human being.
• 2:37
  And as you know, we're going to learn all about her life and
• 2:40
  what she does and how the outdoors are influential.
• 2:43
  And we're also joined by her therapy dog, Kapa Joe.
• 2:48
  And he's going to also tell us how the outdoors influences his
• 2:52
  life and how he interacts with the great outdoors that we love
• 2:56
  and what's on his toe. He has a toe bean, toe bean grow
• 3:02
  toe. Bean Yeah, well, it's not a
• 3:04
  tick, so no. We've got our life jackets,
• 3:08
  we've got our waters, we've got our snacks.
• 3:12
  We're ready to roll. We're ready.
• 3:14
  Here we go. Yay.
• 3:19
  Kappa loves paddling sports. Oh, cool and water.
• 3:22
  Awesome. Then he'll be in the sneak
• 3:23
  between you. His name means earth and water.
• 3:27
  Oh, I love that. Yeah.
• 3:31
  And this is Kappa's second time on a raft.
• 3:35
  And this is Paris's second time on a raft with me.
• 3:44
  Paris joined me for a multi day a four day lower rogue trip just
• 3:49
  a couple weeks ago and got her first multi day river experience
• 3:54
  in. Yeah, exactly.
• 3:56
  And first time on the wild in Scenic.
• 3:59
  Yep, we did a nice wild and scenic Rogue River float.
• 4:04
  Now we're on day float. And I have to say that going
• 4:07
  down the road with you coming back, it gave me a different
• 4:12
  level of appreciation for the Rogue Valley, just connecting
• 4:16
  with the watershed in that way. Like I was looking around and
• 4:21
  just like the mountain seemed brighter and the sky seemed
• 4:25
  bluer. And it was, yeah.
• 4:28
  It was a really healthy perspective shift.
• 4:31
  I love that. Yeah.
• 4:32
  Just getting more exposure, literally adding more color to
• 4:37
  the picture of the Rogue Valley for you.
• 4:39
  Yeah, that's so good. I love to be the inspirer or a
• 4:44
  component of the inspiration. Yeah.
• 4:48
  Absolutely. The facilitator.
• 4:49
  Yeah, yeah. The conduit, Yes, the conduit of
• 4:55
  cerebral connection. Well howdy, I'm just trying to
• 5:01
  turn down the iOS here. The ISOIS.
• 5:07
  O yeah. Same.
• 5:10
  It's all one thing or another. Yeah, that's pretty decent.
• 5:13
  I'll fix the rest of it in editing.
• 5:16
  Perfect. Perfection.
• 5:18
  Excellent. And we've got, we've got about
• 5:24
  about an hour and a half OK on the water.
• 5:28
  Sounds good. Just want to make sure you're
• 5:35
  all set. I am great all.
• 5:38
  Right. Perfect.
• 5:39
  There she is, there she. Is so should we just dive right
• 5:45
  in? We could dive right in.
• 5:46
  You going to dive into the water?
• 5:47
  Yep, ready go. Take off your mic first.
• 5:50
  If you do everything else, fine. We're in the GoPro, Yeah.
• 5:54
  We do have one. We need to get it rolling.
• 5:56
  This is going to be, this is kind of pushing me to get that
• 5:58
  going for the whitewater so I can put this away and.
• 6:02
  Yeah. Anyway, luckily we have limited
• 6:04
  whitewater today, so should should be able to keep it out
• 6:07
  the whole time. Yeah, let's dive right in Paris.
• 6:13
  Tell us who you are, where you come from, a little bit about
• 6:17
  your background and your original roots.
• 6:21
  My original roots. So I've been asked this question
• 6:24
  before about what is my water and since we're on the river
• 6:27
  today I'm just feeling the water vibes.
• 6:30
  But my water that I grew up around is the Great Lakes in
• 6:33
  Michigan, and I lived there until I was about 18.
• 6:39
  And then pretty much since I left, I've lived in a different
• 6:42
  place every year of my life. The longest stint was here in
• 6:47
  Southern Oregon, and I'm a clinical herbalist.
• 6:52
  I studied clinical herbalism here in Southern Oregon and then
• 6:57
  at kind of the apex of that journey, we, some friends and I
• 7:02
  started a nonprofit called Rogue Gerbilism, and the goal with
• 7:07
  that was to bring row gerbilism. Wow.
• 7:10
  Real circleism? Yep, full circle.
• 7:14
  And obviously the name is place based inspired, but also we kind
• 7:20
  of wanted to go rogue and do our own thing and we wanted to focus
• 7:24
  on bringing herbal medicine to underserved population.
• 7:28
  So we were at the time mostly working with people who are
• 7:31
  unhoused in Medford, OR. And that journey brought me to
• 7:38
  the realization that a lot of people who are coming in for
• 7:41
  herbal medicine and holistic health and wanting just a
• 7:46
  different kind of interaction than what was typical for them.
• 7:51
  And the medical health spaces have a lot of trauma.
• 7:58
  And I didn't feel like I was able to meet their needs.
• 8:01
  It was out of my scope of practice.
• 8:04
  And so it was around that time, I think that was in like 2018,
• 8:08
  that I decided to go back to school for counseling.
• 8:12
  And so went to school for counseling.
• 8:15
  I got my degree, I now have my license in Idaho and I'm
• 8:19
  finishing up a certificate in adventure based psychotherapy.
• 8:24
  And now I'm back in Oregon, having some adventures and
• 8:28
  having fun. And doing your own psychotherapy
• 8:30
  for yourself? Yeah, definitely.
• 8:35
  I love it. That's a great little story.
• 8:37
  Was any of that inspired by like parents or familial
• 8:43
  relationships or like the path to herbalism?
• 8:46
  What took you? What inspired you for herbalism?
• 8:49
  Yeah, I would say all of it. I think that, you know, a lot of
• 8:55
  the stories on the podcast that I've heard so far are kind of
• 8:59
  like these peak experiences. And I think that even in
• 9:03
  adventure therapy, we're looking to create these peak experiences
• 9:06
  for people like those moments of being in awe or those like, oh,
• 9:10
  shit moments. Pivotal head change moments.
• 9:12
  Right, right. But for me, it's been I'm.
• 9:16
  Going to move your mic? To the other pal, it's a good
• 9:18
  idea. Since you're facing that way.
• 9:20
  Uno Momento wildly wonders. That's what I've been called.
• 9:26
  Yeah, I think it's the wild, the wildlings.
• 9:29
  Wildlings. I like wildlings too.
• 9:32
  Drop a comment down below. What do you guys like?
• 9:34
  Yeah, tell us what you want to be called.
• 9:36
  How do you identify fans? As a wildling, But yeah, for me
• 9:42
  it's been more of like the slow burn where I didn't feel very
• 9:47
  safe as a child, I was often dysregulated.
• 9:50
  I've had anxiety and depression my whole life, so I remember
• 9:55
  even my earliest memories just feeling kind kind of dissociated
• 9:59
  as a kid, which now I can recognize because I've done a
• 10:02
  lot of work around that and I know what that feels like.
• 10:05
  And when I have those moments, I have a lot of tools for getting
• 10:09
  regulated again. But like for so many people, it
• 10:13
  was nature where I felt the most comfortable and spending time
• 10:16
  outside. And I just remembered like
• 10:20
  naming the trees in our front yard when I was about 5 years
• 10:23
  old and. Like naming them Jerry and
• 10:27
  Rebecca. Again, and Climie in particular,
• 10:30
  we're a couple of the trees. Big wind gusts.
• 10:35
  We'll wait. We'll pick it back up here after
• 10:37
  this. Hold that.
• 10:38
  Hold that thought for the. The wind and the water.
• 10:43
  Different obstacles with river recording.
• 10:46
  Yay. We're here.
• 10:50
  All four. Yes, 4 There's under life.
• 10:54
  There's another life on here. Yes, OK.
• 10:57
  So you were naming. You were naming trees.
• 10:59
  I was. Naming the trees.
• 11:01
  I was about 5 years old. Looking back on it now, I was
• 11:05
  orienting. I was orienting to the place
• 11:08
  where I lived. It was the yard I was growing up
• 11:10
  in. You had five mostly wooded
• 11:13
  acres. We moved there after my parents
• 11:17
  got divorced and moved in initially.
• 11:21
  This was before and this man became my stepdad Mike, but he
• 11:27
  basically let my mom and my sister and I move into the
• 11:29
  house, into his home. And he moved out temporarily and
• 11:33
  was staying with family because we've needed a place to stay.
• 11:37
  And I remember arriving there and just being in awe of the
• 11:43
  trees. And I think it was probably the
• 11:47
  most woods I had really been in because we were more like in the
• 11:51
  suburbs of like metro Detroit before that.
• 11:54
  And so yes, I, I was orienting, I was naming the trees.
• 11:58
  I was learning how to feel safe in my environment and learning
• 12:02
  that I felt more regulated when I was outside.
• 12:06
  And like many kids with a lot of anxiety and fear, I was not a
• 12:13
  big risk taker. I've never broken a bone.
• 12:16
  I yeah, I've, I've taken things really slowly and like what we
• 12:20
  call scaffolding and adventure therapy is what I've been doing
• 12:23
  kind of my whole life of just slowly building up what I feel
• 12:27
  I'm. The same way I'm very much like
• 12:29
  that as well. I'm not big risk taker.
• 12:32
  Yeah, Yeah. So I haven't really had like
• 12:34
  these crazy like peak experiences where there was like
• 12:39
  a threat or a risk or a danger necessarily.
• 12:43
  It's been a lot more of like really like being in my head and
• 12:48
  just feeling unsafe and learning to go.
• 12:52
  Like the deeper I go in my body and into my nervous system for
• 12:56
  healing, the more I feel like I can take risks with adventures
• 13:01
  because I am really building that trust.
• 13:03
  But it's literally been like a lifetime of building that trust
• 13:07
  in myself to be able to go have fun and be outside and do more
• 13:11
  adventurous things. When you're 37.
• 13:15
  Yep, I'm a Sagittarius so I've always wanted to adventure and
• 13:21
  travel and just what that looks like and what that means to me
• 13:24
  has just evolved a lot over the years.
• 13:27
  That's great. It's good to recognize those
• 13:29
  things and move through it. I love that.
• 13:34
  Yeah. Sagittarius is there known for
• 13:38
  adventure. Yeah, well that.
• 13:40
  Would make sense. I know a few that are.
• 13:42
  My dad's a Sagittarius. Yeah, he's very much an
• 13:45
  adventure seeker. Yeah, archetype of the
• 13:48
  traveller, the philosopher and the lifelong student.
• 13:52
  I wonder what I am I'm. I mean well, I know I'm a
• 13:55
  cancer, but also I have a deep yearning for adventure, but I
• 14:04
  also equally love. My shell?
• 14:07
  Yeah. My home.
• 14:08
  Your home and your babies, right?
• 14:10
  Yeah. It's like a 5050.
• 14:12
  It's like, okay, I get one, I get like fulfilled in One
• 14:15
  Direction and then I need to fulfill the next.
• 14:17
  Like I need to fulfill that other side of me.
• 14:20
  And then when one is off balance, I'm fucking on balance.
• 14:24
  Yeah, yeah. Well, you, you know yourself and
• 14:26
  you know what you need to be able to go have fun and to go
• 14:30
  have adventures and learning to recognize those things as a
• 14:34
  specific skill set, right? Deep.
• 14:39
  Quick. I love that's so I knew Paris
• 14:42
  would be a good one because there's there's no shallow with
• 14:45
  Paris. It's all depth.
• 14:47
  It's all depth, yeah. I do like to go deep.
• 14:50
  It is my natural inclination, which is also why I end up why I
• 14:54
  ended up in the therapist seat I think too.
• 14:57
  But I that's typically that's where I like to go with
• 15:01
  conversations and with myself and my journey.
• 15:04
  And I struggled a lot with small talk.
• 15:07
  I still kind of do. You just want to dive.
• 15:10
  I dive, I do. Let's move past the small talk.
• 15:13
  Dive in deep. Yeah, I love that.
• 15:15
  Yeah, but also I. Think I do that weird, but I
• 15:17
  probably do it in a really weird way.
• 15:19
  I'm a little weirdo when it comes, I don't know.
• 15:22
  Anyway, I love it. I was like hearing that.
• 15:23
  Different, different tools for digging in and making people
• 15:27
  expose themselves, but in a like, hopefully safe and
• 15:31
  supported way. Not always.
• 15:33
  Not like I'm just gonna slice into you and see how your guts
• 15:37
  spill out, but. Let's.
• 15:39
  Let's unravel. Only to certain people.
• 15:41
  Yeah. And listen, that's what you're
• 15:42
  into, Yeah. Tell us about adventure therapy.
• 15:49
  Yeah. Tell us more about that.
• 15:50
  That's. I mean, tell us everything.
• 15:51
  We want to know everything. Tell you everything.
• 15:53
  Everything's relevant and we want depth.
• 15:54
  OK, Yeah. What is that?
• 15:56
  What is? It and you're the star of the
• 15:58
  show today, OK. Like what direction should we
• 16:00
  take it in? Adventure is anything outside of
• 16:05
  your comfort zone. OK, that's a good place to
• 16:07
  start. What just happened?
• 16:08
  The my boat tag flapped. I thought it was a fish for a
• 16:12
  second too. I was exciting.
• 16:13
  The wind, I thought. The wind.
• 16:14
  Adjusted my permit tag. I mean, I don't want to spend
• 16:18
  too much time talking about just adventure therapy because
• 16:21
  there's a lot of great podcasts that explore that topic.
• 16:24
  Since adventure therapy is part of you and your story, it is
• 16:27
  still relevant to give a little. Synopsis.
• 16:31
  Synopsis of what it is, what it entails, how people could get
• 16:35
  into it, if that's the kind of therapy that they're looking
• 16:37
  for. Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:38
  So is anything outside of your comfort zone technically,
• 16:41
  Classically what it has looked like is a lot of like wilderness
• 16:45
  therapy, like tracks, adventures, like Backcountry
• 16:48
  experiences. But it as a field has evolved a
• 16:52
  lot and it's still evolving where a lot of it is based off
• 16:56
  of more of the experiential education model where we're
• 16:59
  using, you know, these types of experiences or nature based
• 17:04
  experiences to kind of speak to whatever part of us is looking
• 17:11
  for some kind of feeling or to bring out a part of ourselves
• 17:16
  that's relevant to the therapeutic goals.
• 17:19
  So if you're somebody who is struggling with anxiety, like
• 17:26
  you know, that's a good thing to stand.
• 17:27
  That's where my personal experiences and you're having an
• 17:31
  experience out in nature that is anxiety provoking.
• 17:35
  Then you have something kind of tangible to work with, with
• 17:38
  whoever your facilitator or your person is there with you.
• 17:41
  So. That could be like jumping off
• 17:44
  of a rock or swimming in water that you can't see the bottom.
• 17:49
  Or just it could just be, oh, this is a group therapeutic
• 17:52
  experience and you know, being in a group is anxiety provoking
• 17:56
  for me. I've never, I'm not comfortable
• 17:59
  with water and I'm out on the water and the only way off this
• 18:02
  boat is through the, you know, it could be anything.
• 18:04
  It just depends on that person. But when we go in for therapy
• 18:08
  and it's in a room and it's just you and the therapist, it's an
• 18:15
  environment that's easier to control and nature is not easy
• 18:20
  to control. And so it kind of just gives you
• 18:22
  a lot of raw material to work with.
• 18:24
  Just like the wind today, guys. Sorry.
• 18:28
  But also what's beautiful about it is that nature becomes this
• 18:32
  extra therapeutic experience that you still have access to,
• 18:36
  hopefully. So not always.
• 18:38
  Like if you're in a program where you're like, you know,
• 18:41
  being shipped out to another state or another country for an
• 18:45
  adventure therapy program, you might not have access to that
• 18:49
  place. But certainly there's going to
• 18:52
  be something about that where you know, OK, I know this about
• 18:55
  myself now that I actually find water experiences to be very
• 19:00
  therapeutic. And even if I'm not in therapy,
• 19:02
  can I find a way to access water that's accessible for me that
• 19:07
  can then become part of how I continue to like, work on these
• 19:10
  things in my life or deal with this anxiety or just look, look
• 19:14
  to these things for soothings? And so when you say this like
• 19:18
  the adventure therapy, it's not that camp or not the camp, but
• 19:22
  the it's not that program you saw where like court would like
• 19:28
  like a judge would be like you need to go to this like outdoor
• 19:31
  rehab. And then they would they'd come
• 19:35
  in the middle of night and take the kids from their parents and
• 19:37
  they would ship them off in the middle of nowhere.
• 19:39
  And then they'd have to do this like survival thing.
• 19:41
  And it was like pretty brutal. This isn't.
• 19:43
  Or is that that's not what I do. It can be.
• 19:45
  So it's, you know, it's an umbrella term.
• 19:47
  Yeah, absolutely. And there are programs that
• 19:49
  still do that to my knowledge, but.
• 19:51
  I might need to get cruising while.
• 19:55
  I might try to adventure therapy.
• 19:57
  The light, the soft adventure therapy first.
• 20:00
  Right. And it's up to professionals to
• 20:02
  make those decisions. That's part of the matching
• 20:04
  process, right? It's like, OK, so maybe for your
• 20:07
  guy, that kind of intense experience where he's removed
• 20:10
  from his family and they're on deep wilderness tracks is
• 20:13
  appropriate for him and what he needs to work on.
• 20:15
  But for some people might be, let's just do walk and talk in
• 20:18
  the park near you because we're going to focus on how can we use
• 20:22
  walking as a bilateral experience to regulate your
• 20:25
  nervous system Or you're stuck in an office all day and you
• 20:29
  want to like, also get outside while you're doing your therapy
• 20:32
  session. Let's just do that.
• 20:34
  Let's Orient to the sounds of the birds.
• 20:37
  Let's let's name the trees in the park and just build those
• 20:40
  extra therapeutic relationships that you can continue.
• 20:43
  To how long, how long did these visits last?
• 20:45
  Because I often my son does go to a therapy inside, of course,
• 20:50
  in a little office which he's bouncing off the walls because
• 20:52
  he's like ODDADHD, like he's just all over the place.
• 20:57
  But also it's only like 45 like 50 minutes long and I'm always
• 21:03
  like right at that like 4540 to 45 minute spot.
• 21:08
  He starts to open up and he starts to like acclimate to the
• 21:11
  situation. And I'm always like, if we just
• 21:13
  had a 2 hour session every other week, that would I feel like
• 21:18
  would be more beneficial to him to really like open up, dig in.
• 21:21
  And stuff. Is he doing that because he
• 21:23
  knows the session is almost over?
• 21:26
  He's bouncing off the walls the whole time, OK?
• 21:29
  Yeah, and he just needs that time to get comfortable.
• 21:32
  And even though he's familiar with the therapist, it takes
• 21:35
  that long to like. Get back in the swing of things.
• 21:38
  Yeah, she's learning that like as soon as we walk in game or
• 21:42
  like a craft of some sort that kind of gets him on this like
• 21:45
  playing field because if he's if we just jump into it, he's like
• 21:50
  shut down he's like this is dumb Oh my God, why are we here?
• 21:55
  Like let's leave. Let's sleeve.
• 21:56
  And just like he's like up on the couch and he's down on the
• 21:59
  floor and then he's rolling and then he's over here and you
• 22:02
  know, he's all over the place. Unless he has something to
• 22:04
  regulate the nervous system, which is like a game or
• 22:06
  something. Right.
• 22:07
  Yeah. Or going outside.
• 22:09
  And. Yeah, I feel like he would
• 22:11
  bounce off the walls, but maybe a different bounce off the walls
• 22:14
  if he was outside, maybe it would be.
• 22:17
  Might climb a tree or somersault through the grass.
• 22:20
  Yeah, I don't know. I would just like to try that.
• 22:22
  I didn't even know it was a thing.
• 22:24
  So it's really cool. Yeah.
• 22:25
  And. So I've worked primarily in an
• 22:28
  office and I do. I usually bill 4545 minute
• 22:33
  sessions with kids. So some of these constrictions
• 22:36
  might have to do with billing and insurance.
• 22:37
  I'm sure it is. Adventure therapy is not a
• 22:41
  billable thing. So there's a lot of different
• 22:43
  ways like to look at how people pay for their programs.
• 22:48
  But I will say that integrating experiential education and, or
• 22:53
  adventure based and or nature based experiences or
• 22:58
  interventions into a conventional session is totally
• 23:01
  possible and accessible. And also I would do things where
• 23:06
  we would do like a scavenger hunt.
• 23:08
  So I would have a there's a pre printed list and we would just
• 23:11
  go outside and walk the perimeter of the building with
• 23:14
  parents permission to get them outside and get them orienting
• 23:18
  to the neighborhood, getting them using their senses.
• 23:21
  So it would be like a sensory scavenger hunt, but if we
• 23:24
  couldn't do that, we would do it in the office.
• 23:26
  And then which brings me to Kapa Joe, Mr. Therapy dog.
• 23:32
  He's an animal, he's nature. He's considered an adventure
• 23:37
  based therapist by way of representing the natural world.
• 23:43
  There with you come. On yeah, he's, he's there with
• 23:45
  me when we're in the office and kind of similar to going outside
• 23:52
  or out of the office where there's less predictability, an
• 23:56
  animal is slightly less predictable, especially with
• 23:58
  kids interacting with him. And so he's been an amazing way
• 24:03
  to bring the nature into the office because he's very intact
• 24:08
  with his instincts. He's very intact with his
• 24:11
  emotions. That's primarily how he's, you
• 24:14
  know, he's always using his senses and he's modeling how to
• 24:16
  use his senses. And so we will focus on him and
• 24:22
  what he's doing in terms of interactions with the kids.
• 24:24
  Sometimes it's a great way for me to focus on like positive
• 24:30
  feedback for the kids too. We're like, oh, wow, you're
• 24:32
  being so gentle with Kappa or like I noticed you're really
• 24:37
  respecting his boundaries right now.
• 24:38
  And so we get to just reinforce really positive things and not
• 24:41
  just be like, hey, you're bouncing off the walls.
• 24:45
  Hey, you're you're mad, you're angry, right?
• 24:47
  Kids don't necessarily want or need to process that way.
• 24:50
  Actually, adults don't necessarily want to need, want
• 24:54
  or need to process in that way either.
• 24:56
  And so setting up interactions for them where like one cop is
• 25:01
  there and he's just this like immediate report builder.
• 25:04
  Like so many people love dogs and animals.
• 25:07
  I think a lot of people with trauma love dogs and animals.
• 25:10
  And so it's like as soon as they see the dog, they like me
• 25:13
  better. They're like, oh, she's got a
• 25:15
  dog. She's got to be a reasonable
• 25:17
  human being at least, even though she's a therapist like.
• 25:21
  My son, my son would be, I keep relating to my son because we're
• 25:24
  yeah, we're in that like mode right now.
• 25:26
  So please excuse that if you would, but he would.
• 25:30
  He if there was a dog in the room, it would, he would, it
• 25:35
  would calm him. It would distract him in a
• 25:39
  positive manner instead of like bouncing up the walls like so I
• 25:44
  can totally I. Actually am really good at
• 25:46
  focusing when some things interesting and engaging like a
• 25:49
  dog or a puppy. So now we get to talk about like
• 25:53
  what does it feel like when you feel focused?
• 25:55
  Why is this easier for you to focus on and right and just get
• 25:59
  to focus on focus? Yeah, and how good that feels to
• 26:03
  be regulated and calm and attuned to something and not be
• 26:08
  in the panic mode in your brain of just.
• 26:12
  Oh. This, this does feel nice.
• 26:13
  This is a state that I want to practice being able to be in
• 26:17
  more. When you know that feeling, it's
• 26:19
  so appealing. Nice rhyme to come back to that.
• 26:23
  Yeah, as often as possible and as quickly as possible.
• 26:26
  Yeah, absolutely. And you're right too.
• 26:28
  It's like as soon as they see him, he's like the de escalation
• 26:31
  master. So we also, where I was working,
• 26:34
  we had a crisis center and so kids would come in where they
• 26:37
  were just very, very escalated with behaviors or sometimes it
• 26:41
  was internal and the, the parents too, if there was like a
• 26:44
  conflict happening at home or whatever, bringing their kids
• 26:47
  in. And it's like as soon as
• 26:48
  everybody sees the dog, it's just like kind of takes things
• 26:51
  down a notch and there's something to focus on.
• 26:53
  There's something to talk about. There's an energy just disruptor
• 26:57
  like in for the positive, yeah, yeah, for the positive for sure.
• 27:01
  Just kind of cuts that cuts the cheese.
• 27:04
  Cuts the tension. Yeah, totally.
• 27:06
  And then for me as an experiential therapist, I have
• 27:10
  sort of a framework for approaching, you know, the
• 27:13
  experience that they're having that I'm seeing them have with
• 27:16
  Coppa, with the dog. So that way I can kind of bring
• 27:19
  it back to like, what's, what's the goal for this session?
• 27:21
  We've got 45 minutes. The goal is not just to play
• 27:23
  with a dog, right? So how can we make this?
• 27:27
  It's inherently therapeutic. I think obviously working with
• 27:30
  animals, being on a river, there's, you know, things about
• 27:34
  it that are therapeutic and beneficial.
• 27:36
  And from that clinical lens, you know, there's frameworks and
• 27:41
  ways that we can help really integrate the experience that
• 27:45
  they're having or help apply this to their goals.
• 27:48
  Or, you know, maybe it's directly processing, maybe it's
• 27:51
  not. But so I'm always kind of like,
• 27:54
  it's very good for my busy brain and my my trauma brain to have
• 27:59
  these like multiple levels to focus on because along with my
• 28:04
  childhood anxiety was a lot of hyper vigilance in the egg
• 28:08
  shells waiting for the other foot to drop feeling.
• 28:11
  But actually having these like multiple levels to focus on for
• 28:15
  me have been really helpful. My brain kind of needs
• 28:20
  stimulation in that way. Is it true that are?
• 28:24
  We going to watch these guys jump.
• 28:26
  Are you going to jump? Do it.
• 28:28
  Do it. Come on.
• 28:32
  Podcast. Don't worry, we can't see your
• 28:39
  face. Are you doing at the same time?
• 28:48
  It's going to give you a best, OK.
• 28:50
  Safety first. I'm not doing OK.
• 28:54
  We want you to be safe. Yeah.
• 29:14
  I'm so glad we got a show. Thanks, boys.
• 29:18
  Have fun. So there's a there's a go
• 29:29
  wildly, thank you. You bet it's on YouTube.
• 29:40
  Go wildly like you're going wild.
• 29:42
  All right, Lee, thank you. Hi.
• 29:50
  There's AI think, there's say what's the right word?
• 30:00
  I want to say rumour, but rumour is not the right word.
• 30:02
  But but therapists are the ones who need the therapy the most,
• 30:07
  and they get into therapy because they're essentially
• 30:12
  trying to heal themselves, cure themselves, figure out what what
• 30:16
  their own needs and problems are.
• 30:20
  Would you relate to that, or agree to that, or see evidence
• 30:23
  of that? Yeah, 100%.
• 30:26
  And I don't think it's a necessarily a bad thing.
• 30:29
  I think it can be a good thing. I think about this with
• 30:32
  addictions therapy a lot and how I know people who are in
• 30:37
  recovery or covered. I'm like, they make awesome
• 30:40
  addiction therapist. They can really relate.
• 30:42
  They have so much empathy. And also I have a lot of family
• 30:46
  with addiction. And so I just think about their
• 30:49
  experiences trying to relate to people who hadn't been through
• 30:52
  it. And they're like, fuck, you know
• 30:54
  about so. So I think that it's a great
• 30:57
  tool for empathy. And if it's not integrated, if
• 31:00
  you haven't done work to regulate your nervous system and
• 31:05
  it's ongoing, it's not just like I did not show up.
• 31:10
  I still don't show up as a counselor fully healed by any
• 31:13
  means. But I would say that the draw
• 31:16
  isn't just for those in depth conversations.
• 31:19
  It is like this craving for knowledge about how to heal.
• 31:23
  Because do we ever get fully? Healed.
• 31:26
  I don't believe that that's even desirable, even if we could.
• 31:30
  Because damage or injuries continue to happen throughout
• 31:35
  life. So it's just we're healing from
• 31:38
  something of the past and getting tools for future
• 31:42
  challenges and then applying those to, yeah, the future and
• 31:46
  continuing to say, OK, well, here's a new, here's a new
• 31:51
  trauma trauma, here's a new injury, Here's a new complexity
• 31:56
  to address and overcome. Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:00
  And I, I was just thinking about this this morning where I
• 32:05
  experienced so much joy through my body.
• 32:08
  And I was thinking about the idea of, you know, trauma is
• 32:11
  stored in our bodies. And there's that, you know, the
• 32:13
  book everyone's heard of The Body Keeps the Score.
• 32:16
  And basically this is the the idea of trauma being stored in
• 32:21
  our body has a lot to do with the imprint that trauma has on
• 32:24
  our nervous systems and then the lifetime impact that that has on
• 32:28
  our personalities, our behavior, our functioning, our physical
• 32:32
  health. But the other side of that would
• 32:35
  be. I have something to add to that.
• 32:37
  Oh yeah, I just read a or listen to a podcast I can't remember
• 32:41
  not read. Definitely listen to it
• 32:43
  somewhere about how. Let me get my words correct
• 32:51
  before I start in. Okay, so how the trauma can be
• 32:57
  passed down in genetics and a lot of times possibly, obviously
• 33:02
  this is a theory, but how when people feel like, oh, I feel
• 33:06
  like I lived a past life in that place or that feeling or
• 33:12
  whatever, that's actually like imprinted trauma in the genetics
• 33:17
  potentially that. So it might not be a past life.
• 33:21
  Maybe it's an ancestor that felt that and you're feeling that.
• 33:25
  Absolutely. I don't know.
• 33:26
  How do you what do you think about that?
• 33:27
  I'm just really glad you brought it up because the ancestors have
• 33:31
  been a really big part of my journey.
• 33:33
  I think of why I felt called toward anything.
• 33:35
  So kind of going back to Emily's question, I have felt a very
• 33:43
  intuitive, but also like, I want to say like a somatic connection
• 33:48
  with my ancestors for a long time.
• 33:51
  And I I at least feel like they've been talking to me for a
• 33:56
  long time, asking for me. Not for healing, but just to.
• 34:01
  Like. I kind of go where I feel drawn
• 34:04
  to, which has ended up being a very healing journey.
• 34:08
  And I would say that kind of on that line of thought I was on
• 34:15
  before. Our bodies and our trauma are
• 34:18
  also where we are holding onto a lot of intergenerational
• 34:22
  resilience. There's a lot of it's not just
• 34:26
  the way that we cope with trauma and deal with it, but it's also
• 34:29
  like, you know, kill our sense of humor or like for some
• 34:34
  people, it is like that desire to get out and have these like,
• 34:38
  you know, maybe high cortisol experiences in nature.
• 34:41
  But if they if they can approach it and do it in a way that
• 34:44
  reflects healing for them, then that's not, that's not a
• 34:49
  negative impact of trauma. And those are the parts of
• 34:52
  yourself that you don't necessarily want to surpass or
• 34:55
  to let go of, right? They're they're still part of
• 34:57
  you. They're part of your story.
• 35:01
  And as far as like the intergenerational piece, yeah,
• 35:03
  like I, it's, it's super fascinating, all of the
• 35:07
  information about intergenerational trauma.
• 35:10
  And I don't know how other people experience it or relate
• 35:13
  to it, but I, I definitely relate to it in that way.
• 35:15
  If like I, I feel an ancestral imprint and calling towards
• 35:21
  certain things in my life. My, I have a little story.
• 35:27
  So I, I grew up knowing or thinking that we were Japanese
• 35:31
  on one part of my family. My Oba is from Okinawa, which I
• 35:36
  knew, but there was very little conversation around like what
• 35:39
  that meant in terms of identity. And as I got older, it wasn't
• 35:45
  until like, I don't know, probably, probably around 2016,
• 35:51
  I think around when I got Kappa that I learned that, oh,
• 35:54
  Okinawans are indigenous people. We have our own culture, our own
• 35:58
  language, our own identity. But I felt like I almost kind of
• 36:05
  knew because of I just had this intuitive draw to learn and to
• 36:10
  seek out that information. And I only found it because I
• 36:12
  was like digging around looking for more info.
• 36:15
  And I just have this gut feeling.
• 36:17
  So there's some missing information like.
• 36:19
  Digging through family photos and photo albums.
• 36:22
  Or Instagram, the Internet and Googling stuff and being just
• 36:28
  having cultural curiosity about Okinawa.
• 36:32
  And so that's how I came across that information.
• 36:34
  And I was like, wow, I had a feeling there was some
• 36:37
  information there. I know that in my family, I
• 36:41
  don't think anybody really talked about it because the goal
• 36:44
  was to fit in. So when my Obama moved here with
• 36:48
  my grandfather, who she met on the military base in Okinawa,
• 36:52
  they were not accepted by his family.
• 36:58
  There were a lot of kids making racist comments and things like
• 37:01
  that towards my dad. And they have this joke on that
• 37:04
  side of my family that they were all born looking Asian and then
• 37:09
  became white. And it's a joke, but it's also
• 37:13
  kind of just the sad reality of like everyone, Everyone just
• 37:16
  wanted to fit in and to not be seen for that part of ourselves
• 37:20
  and that part of our family history, so.
• 37:25
  There's as much as the US has praised itself or was kind of
• 37:31
  came up in the world as being a melting pot and being welcoming
• 37:35
  to all, all races and places. There's a lot of consistent
• 37:40
  stories of people emigrating, immigrating here and being
• 37:44
  rejected. Yeah.
• 37:46
  And also I don't want a melting pot.
• 37:49
  I think most people don't. So like having cultural
• 37:52
  specifics that you get to connect with and like specific
• 37:57
  parts of your ancestry or your heritage that you get to be
• 37:59
  proud of that don't. Traditions and into the culture,
• 38:03
  culinary experiences and. Yeah, and like having feeling
• 38:08
  safe enough to get to celebrate those things, which I, I feel
• 38:11
  very lucky that my sister and I have felt safe enough to explore
• 38:15
  those things. So there was one year, her and
• 38:20
  I. So is this the story?
• 38:22
  This is back to the story. Yeah.
• 38:23
  So her and I, it was Hallows Eve.
• 38:26
  It was Salwin. So the veils were thin.
• 38:29
  And her and I were doing a card reading.
• 38:33
  And I just told her I was like, Paige, I really feel like our
• 38:36
  ancestors want us to learn more about who they are and where we
• 38:39
  came from. I was like, I just.
• 38:40
  I feel like that's like our mission.
• 38:42
  Like we, we have to do that. And then it was just later that
• 38:48
  year that I found this woman on Instagram who was doing shibori
• 38:52
  dyeing and indigo dyeing and some other traditions that were
• 38:56
  like she's Okinawan and she's like 3rd or 4th generation in
• 38:59
  her family to do this art. And then Fast forward, it's like
• 39:03
  3 years later, Paige and I were at a workshop with this woman
• 39:07
  and learning about the Reu Qi, which is the the Reu Q Kingdom
• 39:12
  is what was Okinawa before? It was before it was, I guess,
• 39:18
  colonized by Japan. That's probably the best word
• 39:20
  for it. It was like under Japan and then
• 39:23
  it was under American military rule and now it's under Japan
• 39:27
  again. But historically it was the Re Q
• 39:29
  Kingdom. And so we were studying the Re
• 39:32
  Qi Indigo and learning with her. And the workshop was being held
• 39:37
  at this Cultural Center where these Okinawan elders, these
• 39:43
  Obas had been coming together so that they would have other
• 39:46
  people to just speak their language with.
• 39:49
  And so we were sitting around listening them to to them speak
• 39:54
  Uchi Noguchi, which is sort of the umbrella language, native
• 39:59
  language for Okinawans. That's the cutest name for a
• 40:03
  language. Uchi Nachu is where we're from,
• 40:06
  Okinawa Uchi Nachu. So there's so Okinawa is a
• 40:09
  Japanese name or word, but uchina is where we're from and
• 40:13
  I'm Uchi Nachu. But also there's other ways to
• 40:17
  say it, like Luchu. Yeah, there's there's a lot of
• 40:20
  languages and a lot of words, a lot of history there.
• 40:23
  But it's a very cute word. It's very cute.
• 40:25
  And we're listening to them speak and interact and just have
• 40:30
  this freedom and the safety to engage in culture and language
• 40:35
  and friendship. And kind of going back to that
• 40:39
  trauma piece, there's this physical feeling of not having
• 40:42
  had that, that I still feel at times.
• 40:45
  I feel this well of sadness and grief.
• 40:50
  Growing up, my primary emotion that I would feel was grief,
• 40:54
  just all the time, like a little little girl.
• 40:56
  Like I didn't have a word for grief until I was probably a
• 40:59
  teenager. And I didn't have a way to
• 41:02
  describe that experience until I was almost an adult.
• 41:05
  I would watch Moana and I would just bawl because I was just
• 41:08
  like, there's something more out there.
• 41:11
  Like what is it? What's going on?
• 41:13
  And then and we got to have this experience just kind of being
• 41:17
  immersed not only in, you know, some of the cultural specifics
• 41:22
  of part of our heritage, my sister and I, but also with
• 41:25
  women who seem to have gotten to have a very different experience
• 41:32
  from what my Oba had coming to the States and from what my
• 41:35
  family had. And it was, it was a corrective
• 41:38
  experience. Like I physically felt different
• 41:42
  after that day. And a lot of the grief was
• 41:45
  around this feeling of not belonging.
• 41:47
  And I still struggle with that. You righted that ship.
• 41:50
  Yeah. For your line, line your lineage
• 41:54
  like you righted that like you. Yeah, back on.
• 41:57
  Course. Yeah, totally.
• 41:58
  It was Moana being like, I know everyone's telling me not to
• 42:01
  listen to the ancestors and not to travel and to seek out this
• 42:04
  thing and to stay safe and comfortable with what we know.
• 42:08
  But I'm gonna go anyway because I can feel that.
• 42:11
  It felt like that. It felt like we had to go out of
• 42:14
  our comfort zone travelling her. her and I both deal with a lot
• 42:18
  of anxiety. I I.
• 42:20
  Your sister or Moana? My sister and I and we were in a
• 42:24
  city travelling to like go have this experience which was just
• 42:27
  just challenging for me. It still is being in a city, but
• 42:33
  we knew that we had to like seek this out and give it a try and.
• 42:36
  Because we don't grow in our comfort zone, we have to.
• 42:40
  We do have to move outside our comfort zone to for real to
• 42:44
  learn anything really, and then go back to the rooted
• 42:49
  comfortable place to apply those.
• 42:51
  Lessons and that trip was an adventure and kind of going back
• 42:54
  to the whole adventure therapy thing, it's it's not just
• 42:57
  getting out of your comfort zone, but it's having an
• 42:59
  experience. It's having a way to for your
• 43:03
  body to be able to pick up on all of these cues, like hearing
• 43:07
  the language, touching the indigo, touching the fabric,
• 43:11
  being around multiple generations of Okinawan people
• 43:15
  and getting to just have all the emotions that were part of that.
• 43:20
  And also it followed, you know, the the parts of a story, the
• 43:24
  parts of a journey where we left our comfortable homes, we went
• 43:28
  to a new city, we had this peak experience.
• 43:31
  And then we got to come back and integrate some of that.
• 43:33
  So that's cool. Yeah, I like that a lot.
• 43:37
  Real quick wind, you are my bitch lover.
• 43:42
  I mean if we're sailing on a ship we need that when to direct
• 43:46
  our course and move us along? Bitch love her.
• 43:51
  I love her also. Have you not like Wedding
• 43:53
  Crashers? Do we need to have a movie
• 43:55
  night? We always need to have a movie
• 43:57
  night. It's been a while since I've
• 43:59
  seen Wedding Crashers. Yeah, but not in a long but
• 44:01
  I'll. Find you, I'll find.
• 44:04
  You. Yeah, girl, she's the.
• 44:06
  Girlfriend, right? Yeah.
• 44:08
  Death, you are my page lover. I remember.
• 44:12
  At least the winds. The winds brief.
• 44:13
  It's strong, but it's brief. Crab cakes and football, that's
• 44:17
  what Marilyn does. I'm pretty sure it was so
• 44:22
  impression. That sounds right.
• 44:23
  Vince Vaughn. Yeah, he's good.
• 44:25
  Yeah. Love of Vince Vaughn.
• 44:29
  That's all right. I was going to ask you, did your
• 44:32
  sister experience the same kind of like?
• 44:36
  Now I'm going to. Childhood.
• 44:39
  Hold on a moment guys. Pointing down.
• 44:42
  I want it pointing up. Yeah, like the same anxiety
• 44:46
  trauma just like did. Was it something environmental
• 44:50
  that you guys that happened and you both experienced?
• 44:53
  I kind of skipped over it a lot, but.
• 44:55
  Then you don't have to talk about it if you want to.
• 44:57
  Here's all the trauma. Here's all the TT with a capital
• 45:02
  T Yeah. So intergenerational trauma on
• 45:05
  both sides of my lineage, I would say.
• 45:08
  I mean, for sure, I know my Oba had an alcoholic father who was
• 45:13
  not around, but she was about four or five.
• 45:17
  During the Battle of Okinawa, she hid in a cave with her
• 45:19
  sister. From the soldiers.
• 45:23
  They were told that Americans were going to kill them, you
• 45:28
  know, other worse things. But in fact, there was also a
• 45:32
  lot of like, abuses happening on behalf of the Japanese military.
• 45:38
  So a lot of Okinawans were kind of caught between.
• 45:42
  And then after the war, the island was decimated.
• 45:45
  So she grew up, you know, in a time period where she she
• 45:48
  remembers like begging the American military for food.
• 45:53
  And it was. It was survival.
• 45:55
  How old? She was four or five when this
• 45:56
  was happening. During the battle, yeah.
• 45:58
  And then? How long was the Battle of
• 46:02
  Okinawa? I want to say it was eight or
• 46:03
  nine months. Yeah, but don't Fact Check, Fact
• 46:06
  Check me. Don't take my word for it.
• 46:08
  That's just fine. I'm not great with numbers and
• 46:11
  details. But it wasn't multi years.
• 46:15
  It was. I don't think so.
• 46:16
  Relatively brief in the grand scheme of time.
• 46:19
  In the grand scheme of time, yes.
• 46:22
  And then she came to the United States, to Michigan.
• 46:26
  My grandfather, who she was married to, was very abusive.
• 46:30
  Believe he's an alcoholic. So how?
• 46:33
  Old was she when she came to the.
• 46:34
  States, well, we don't know when she was born for sure.
• 46:36
  There's no birth records, but I'm, I think she was in her 20s,
• 46:41
  I want to say. And then, yeah, just a lot of
• 46:46
  culture of abuse and my dad's side of the family,
• 46:51
  unfortunately, there was abuse that I grew up around.
• 46:54
  There's some domestic violence that I witnessed when I was
• 46:57
  little. And my mom is a recovered
• 47:01
  alcoholic. Her mother, my grandmother, is a
• 47:04
  drug addict. My mom kind of raised herself
• 47:08
  also like, very much a survivor. And so there is like a legacy of
• 47:12
  trauma there. There's also a legacy of great
• 47:16
  sense of humor. I would say a coping mechanism.
• 47:19
  Right. But yeah, to to be fair, there
• 47:23
  was just a lot on both sides of my family.
• 47:25
  And so my sister was an alcoholic for many years as
• 47:31
  well. She's also now recovered.
• 47:34
  And so is my And you're not like, how did you ever battle
• 47:36
  with drinking? My battle is to not have anxiety
• 47:41
  about drinking. So I was definitely, I am still
• 47:43
  recovering from deep, deep codependency from I think
• 47:47
  growing around up around addiction.
• 47:50
  But again, it's kind of like these nervous system responses
• 47:53
  and then the beliefs about myself, the beliefs that people
• 47:57
  develop about themselves and sort of in response to what we
• 48:01
  see, what I saw growing up. So I would say I'm still healing
• 48:06
  from the role that I played growing up around addiction,
• 48:10
  growing up around some, you know, some violence, some
• 48:16
  instability, things like that. Probably a lot of instability.
• 48:20
  Yeah, yeah, relative depends on who you ask.
• 48:24
  Yeah, but for you? Yeah, how many brothers and
• 48:27
  sisters do you do you have? There's five of us, so big
• 48:31
  family. Yeah, I'm the oldest.
• 48:33
  There's a meme that I love and it's like Happy Mother's Day to
• 48:37
  all of the eldest daughters of Asian families because there's
• 48:42
  just a trope around like, trying to parent the family and like,
• 48:47
  take on responsibility. Like my response to the chaos
• 48:51
  was like perfectionism and control.
• 48:53
  That's a lot of the older sibling takes that on.
• 48:57
  Yeah, absolutely. And I'm here so far.
• 49:00
  My house gets messy now. Kapa has taught me a lot about
• 49:02
  letting things go and trusting going with the flow.
• 49:06
  How has it been growing up in such a fak culture?
• 49:10
  You know, but also but not presenting as because to me you
• 49:14
  don't necessarily present as Asian.
• 49:17
  Oh yeah. So how has that played a role?
• 49:19
  I would say just feeling like I don't belong anywhere.
• 49:21
  A lot of the time it's it's been like even now I really struggle
• 49:27
  where it's like I don't feel like I I'm, I don't feel like
• 49:31
  I'm a great representative of Okinawan culture.
• 49:33
  I didn't grow up in the culture. There was like cultural
• 49:35
  artifacts in my family that I can look back and be like, yeah,
• 49:38
  we're like distinctly Asian and there's like Asian family.
• 49:42
  Funny. Well, you have beautiful
• 49:43
  features. Thank you.
• 49:45
  And, well, you're beautiful. Thank you.
• 49:47
  But I, yeah, if I'd meet you, I almost would have tagged you as,
• 49:51
  like, Native American just from your complexion and, like, your
• 49:55
  eyes. But that's just like my
• 49:58
  perspective. Yeah, and I, I identify as
• 50:01
  white, but I also identify as Asian American.
• 50:04
  I also identify as Rukian and Okinawan and Luchu.
• 50:09
  There's, you know, there's a lot of a lot of names for it.
• 50:12
  I have 1% Scandinavian heritage that I'm like, yes, I am Viking.
• 50:19
  Yeah, so I have a, you are a warrior.
• 50:21
  I have a percentage like Congo. Oh yeah.
• 50:24
  Yeah, so I'm just when that came, well, my dad, so my dad
• 50:28
  had his ancestry ran and then he told me that and I was all I'm
• 50:33
  black, Yeah. Elliott did that too.
• 50:36
  He had like 1% Congolese also. I'm just like I made it.
• 50:40
  I made it. And that kind of brings up the
• 50:42
  concept of blood quantum. Have you 2 ever?
• 50:45
  No. Across that, yeah, yeah.
• 50:46
  Well, so I'm Native American. I have my dad is has a line of
• 50:53
  Native American and then my son is like a registered Native
• 50:57
  American. My dad's also registered, but I
• 51:00
  don't think my quantum, my blood quantum is like like there for a
• 51:04
  registry maybe now because it dwindles and you still got to
• 51:07
  keep up with it like as a as like an Indian culture and like
• 51:12
  the tribe, they want to keep up like with the lineage.
• 51:14
  So I should. Probably get registered but.
• 51:17
  But my son is so I'm like familiar with how that works.
• 51:21
  Because his father. Yeah, Sam's like, I don't know
• 51:25
  like a full quarter or something native, but.
• 51:29
  Well, so one of the arguments is that no blood quantum where it's
• 51:32
  like let tribes define for themselves if you're part of the
• 51:36
  culture or not, right? Or if you're part of the tribe
• 51:38
  or if you want to register, right.
• 51:40
  Yeah. And so I think about that with
• 51:43
  my family and with my Oba, her and I have had conversations
• 51:46
  where she likes to joke around and say you're more Okinawan
• 51:51
  than me because you have a garden, because you go on
• 51:53
  adventures and for her. Like you're living the culture.
• 51:57
  Yeah. Not just because it's in your
• 51:59
  blood. And to her, that's what that
• 52:01
  means. To her, it means being wild, it
• 52:03
  means being adventurous. It means growing plants.
• 52:08
  It means food sovereignty. You know, it doesn't mean
• 52:11
  actually cultural specifics because she actually wasn't
• 52:14
  raised with a ton of culture even even growing up there for
• 52:19
  herself. And I think there's a lot of
• 52:21
  factors that play into that. But, and also when I asked her
• 52:25
  about cultural specific, like holidays and altars and rituals
• 52:29
  and dresses and songs and all of this stuff, she's just like, Oh
• 52:33
  yeah, we had that. That was there.
• 52:34
  It's not a big deal to her. And she has never thought about
• 52:37
  even passing it on or sharing those things with us.
• 52:39
  There's AI feel like they're that that like almost Silent
• 52:42
  Generation is like that. It's like they didn't really.
• 52:46
  They didn't take notice. Not that they they weren't
• 52:49
  allowed to. Yeah.
• 52:51
  Maybe that it was cultural erasure and they had to
• 52:55
  integrate into American culture and that meant not speaking your
• 53:00
  language, not practicing traditions, not eating for the
• 53:04
  culture, but eating American food, speaking American English,
• 53:08
  participating in American holiday tradition.
• 53:10
  Which is about survival, too. It's like we want to survive and
• 53:14
  if we're going to survive, we're going and to assimilate.
• 53:17
  And that even happened in Okinawa.
• 53:20
  Similar to some of the schools here in North America.
• 53:24
  She when she was in school, they were not allowed to speak Uchino
• 53:27
  Gucci. And if you did, you got in
• 53:29
  trouble. You had to speak Japanese.
• 53:30
  They learned to read and write in Japanese, so.
• 53:33
  I just what I I just take from what my mom.
• 53:37
  So like if my mom had a rich culture, I just take my
• 53:41
  personality of my mother, love her.
• 53:43
  She's got a big heart. But if she did have a Thiak
• 53:46
  culture, it would go yes, culture, culture, it would go by
• 53:51
  the wayside because she's just that she's just got like a
• 53:55
  breezy, simple nonchalant. She would not take it, you know,
• 54:00
  she it wouldn't be absorbed, it wouldn't be noticed because
• 54:02
  she's just living her life. So that's kind of what I meant
• 54:05
  of like, maybe because I'm just thinking about how my mom would
• 54:09
  act. My dad's the opposite.
• 54:11
  He's like, hold on to that shit. But anyway, I wonder if there's
• 54:15
  a little bit of that of like. Oh yeah, we're.
• 54:18
  We're just more, you know, I don't want to say woke, but like
• 54:21
  we're more a keen, we're more noticing.
• 54:24
  Yeah, and it's totally a different context, too, right?
• 54:27
  So like, not only was she punished for speaking her native
• 54:30
  language at one point, but then, you know, she moved to the
• 54:33
  United States and there was, like, multiple levels of
• 54:36
  survival in her life that she was navigating.
• 54:38
  Those things were way more important than, you know,
• 54:42
  reconnecting with her roots. But but for my sister and I,
• 54:47
  again, it's like we have this relative amount of safety in
• 54:50
  this opportunity, like to do our nervous system work. her and I
• 54:53
  are not in a place where we have to be focused on survival.
• 54:57
  And I would say that for a lot of my mother's life, I think she
• 55:01
  had to. I think my dad probably felt
• 55:03
  that way. My boss, certainly, and we also
• 55:10
  recognize that we're in cultural diaspora, so there's a.
• 55:13
  What is that? I've never.
• 55:14
  Heard of that before, basically like I can guess, but many
• 55:19
  Uchinachu leaving the island and going to other places for a new
• 55:24
  life and a new home. A lot of Okinawans immigrated to
• 55:27
  Hawaii. I think there's quite a few in
• 55:30
  South America. I want to say Brazil.
• 55:32
  But anyway, we're all over the place and a lot of people left.
• 55:35
  A lot of there's like almost, it's almost like a trope of like
• 55:40
  a generation of women that met men on the American military
• 55:44
  base, married and then left and went and had families elsewhere.
• 55:48
  And so the diaspora is this community of people who are all
• 55:52
  over globally doing our best to connect with the culture, but
• 55:57
  also continue culture in a way that's new and fresh.
• 56:03
  And like has adapted to the fact that, like, a lot of us are
• 56:06
  mixed and a lot of us didn't grow up in the culture or we
• 56:10
  don't have, you know, immediate, like cultural groups or centers
• 56:15
  to connect with. And So what does that look like
• 56:17
  when it changes and it kind of goes?
• 56:20
  Back to that identity question. Waters moving away from the
• 56:24
  rock. Let's see.
• 56:28
  And Emily knows. She called.
• 56:29
  Emily is the little. We might hit this little grass
• 56:32
  because it's going to peel us back in, but it's going to push
• 56:35
  us back out again. Grass Kappa.
• 56:38
  Kappa loves grass. We good.
• 56:40
  Has that got a good view? I mean, it's both of your
• 56:44
  beautiful faces. Most beautiful day Have you
• 56:48
  gotten a video of the beautiful rested dog?
• 56:52
  Yeah, I got a bunch of him. Oh, good.
• 56:54
  Yeah, that's so interesting. I'm really glad that you got to.
• 57:00
  You're like digging into that again.
• 57:02
  Like I hardly know yet, but like, that's so cool.
• 57:06
  Yeah. And just so wonderful to like
• 57:08
  I'm very much like that. I don't give my, I don't give
• 57:12
  myself the time to dig into like my native culture or even dig
• 57:17
  into like anywhere else. Like, I got some German and my
• 57:21
  mom's French and like, some other things.
• 57:24
  And I just, yeah, I don't have time to dig into it.
• 57:27
  I would love to one day dig into it, but it's really special.
• 57:31
  It's really inspiring. Yeah.
• 57:33
  Like, maybe I should do a little bit more.
• 57:35
  Maybe I should read some more books that my dad recommends.
• 57:38
  Well, I think for me it was like, it's that belonging piece
• 57:42
  again, where it felt like a missing piece.
• 57:44
  It felt like this source of grief in my life.
• 57:49
  It has helped with the belonging.
• 57:52
  It has helped with the grief. I I almost never feel alone.
• 57:56
  I often, I often speak to my ancestors now and, you know,
• 58:00
  thank them. Yeah, Whenever I pray, it's, I'm
• 58:03
  not necessarily praying to like obviously a higher power, but
• 58:07
  like when I'm in a really sticky situation, I'm praying to my
• 58:10
  grandma. You know, maybe like when you
• 58:12
  talk to your dad, you talk. To my dad all the time I'm.
• 58:15
  Praying, you know, like, yeah. Yeah, it's more like a
• 58:18
  conversation. And like, Can you imagine, like,
• 58:21
  not having those conversations with your dad, you know, or
• 58:24
  like, that's how I feel about the ancestors that I never even
• 58:28
  met. It's like, I think not having
• 58:30
  that sense of continuity in my life, like, no wonder I felt so
• 58:33
  alone and I wasn't having my needs met by my parents when I
• 58:37
  was little. Sorry, Mom and Dad, if you
• 58:38
  listen to this, I love you guys. You met many of my needs and
• 58:42
  there was a lot going on. I don't hold it against them,
• 58:45
  but I feel like it's it's part of my healing now to recognize
• 58:49
  that there's certain needs that were not met for me in childhood
• 58:53
  and now as an adult I'm finding creative ways to meet those
• 58:58
  needs. I'm learning to Co regulate my
• 59:00
  nervous system with a dog. Many years before I felt like I
• 59:05
  could do it with a person. And learning to Co regulate with
• 59:10
  nature because that's easier and safer than people who can be
• 59:14
  scary with my ancestors. And I feel like now I'm really
• 59:18
  starting to get to lean into my human relationships even more.
• 59:22
  Like yes, family's always been there, especially my siblings, I
• 59:26
  would say. But you know, human
• 59:30
  relationships can just be really complex and like bring up the
• 59:33
  very things that we're trying to heal, which is great in some
• 59:36
  ways. But like also learning that I
• 59:39
  don't have to put myself in triggering situations to heal my
• 59:42
  triggers. And that being being around
• 59:45
  safety and learning to feel safe and scaffolding my nervous
• 59:49
  system to feel more and more and more safe in the places that I
• 59:52
  want to heal in. That's that's where that's what
• 59:56
  I'm leaning into now. And that was also what I loved
• 59:58
  about herbal medicine was that it was how I was orienting to
• 1:00:02
  the places around me in a way that was like, I'm not only am I
• 1:00:06
  orienting, but like these plants could save my life if I was out
• 1:00:09
  here. And they, they heal my body,
• 1:00:12
  they heal my mind and my spirit. And I think that they were
• 1:00:15
  really the entryway to like the deeper relationship that I now
• 1:00:19
  feel like I have with my ancestors.
• 1:00:22
  The deeper relationship that I have with nature, it was just
• 1:00:25
  like that was the Safeway that I got to experience nature and the
• 1:00:31
  outdoors was through plants like before, I felt more comfortable
• 1:00:34
  doing more adventurous things. They're very connecting, they
• 1:00:37
  just connect you so. And while all this healing is
• 1:00:41
  essential, essential for you to live essentially, it's also kind
• 1:00:51
  of a privilege to have the space and time and capacity to do that
• 1:00:57
  work, to heal that generational trauma and not continue to pass
• 1:01:03
  it on. And to for your ancestors to see
• 1:01:08
  you doing that work and for them to feel that healing also.
• 1:01:13
  And for their spirits to be able to let go and release and live
• 1:01:19
  in their afterlife a little more peacefully, that they couldn't
• 1:01:24
  do that work, even though maybe they had also generational
• 1:01:27
  trauma, their ancestors had traumatic situations.
• 1:01:31
  They were continuing to live in a place of trauma, and they
• 1:01:34
  couldn't do that work. And I would imagine that they're
• 1:01:38
  very proud of you and very grateful that you are able to do
• 1:01:43
  that work. OK.
• 1:01:44
  Now we're on, we're back from the battery break.
• 1:01:47
  Y'all we just, we're going to touch on this little situation.
• 1:01:52
  I had a little download as we were floating about how cool it
• 1:01:58
  is to have you on and talk about this adventure based therapy,
• 1:02:02
  because that's essentially why we're doing this is because
• 1:02:06
  people have these profound moments in nature and or in the
• 1:02:11
  outdoors in general. And it's cool to have like a
• 1:02:17
  professional that knows that how important that is and you work
• 1:02:21
  with that on a regular basis and like it kind of like a little
• 1:02:24
  full circle moment download for me.
• 1:02:27
  So thank you for being here and like just kind of solidifying
• 1:02:30
  how important the wild is, the wildly is.
• 1:02:35
  And how therapeutic nature is, even if it is just as simple as
• 1:02:40
  identifying the trees in your neighborhood, or just in your
• 1:02:43
  yard, or out the window from where one is sitting.
• 1:02:48
  Just the value of being connected in some way to the
• 1:02:53
  natural world. How much peace and calm and
• 1:02:58
  place that can bring. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:03:02
  And I'm a baby therapist. I'm new to the field.
• 1:03:05
  I'm still completing my certificate in adventure
• 1:03:07
  therapy, but I've been integrating it into my practice
• 1:03:11
  and but it's so much more than that.
• 1:03:16
  Like, like we've been talking about being able to connect with
• 1:03:21
  nature. Nobody.
• 1:03:22
  You don't need any kind of training for that.
• 1:03:25
  You don't need a facilitator to have a healing experience, to
• 1:03:29
  have a profound, profound healing experience, right.
• 1:03:32
  It's and that's part of what's so wonderful about it.
• 1:03:35
  It's like it, it is. There's a an aspect of it that's
• 1:03:38
  always feral that we're always in surrender to, no matter how
• 1:03:42
  much of a professional or not you are.
• 1:03:45
  And that's, yeah, that's. You don't need to be a
• 1:03:48
  professional or like. Even an an expert or and even in
• 1:03:55
  the the profundity. Is that the right term for
• 1:03:59
  profoundness? You just did it.
• 1:04:02
  I like that. Bald Eagle.
• 1:04:04
  Where? Up in that tree where fuck even
• 1:04:08
  the. Hold on, bald eagle moment.
• 1:04:10
  Perched. This is the Itis Lukosephalus.
• 1:04:14
  I don't think this camera can zoom in close enough, but.
• 1:04:17
  I got it. But there's, there's bald eagle
• 1:04:20
  up. There the the profundity
• 1:04:24
  profoundness of an outdoor experience.
• 1:04:28
  Only the person experiencing that can measure the level of
• 1:04:34
  profoundness of it. It's not up to anybody else to
• 1:04:37
  say that wasn't profound enough, that wasn't life changing
• 1:04:41
  enough. Well, that it's not your, it's
• 1:04:43
  not your life that was changed. It changed my life and therefore
• 1:04:48
  it was life changing and it was profound.
• 1:04:50
  It's. So relationship based, it's like
• 1:04:53
  it's the relationship they're having with that moment, with
• 1:04:55
  that experience and with themselves.
• 1:04:58
  Yeah, we talk about a lot like Emily.
• 1:05:01
  One day we'll have her story be featured.
• 1:05:04
  She has some really pivotal, deep, like 2 really pivotal,
• 1:05:09
  deep, life changing outdoor experience stories.
• 1:05:13
  For me, it's like an accumulation of like an era of
• 1:05:18
  really fun little stories that kind of like shaped me as a
• 1:05:22
  whole. So it's like it can be
• 1:05:24
  anybody's. Perspective.
• 1:05:26
  And while I have those two incredibly significant life
• 1:05:31
  changing events, at the same time it is also that my whole
• 1:05:35
  every experience that has changed my life or altered my
• 1:05:39
  course or given me insight, perspective, direction have all
• 1:05:44
  happened outside or through some relation with the natural world.
• 1:05:52
  Yeah, And every time I feel like every time I go out right now,
• 1:05:54
  it's like having this conversation with you here.
• 1:05:57
  We're on the boat, we're filming, we're having this new
• 1:06:00
  day, this new experience. Yay.
• 1:06:03
  It's like I get to like this is a core experience and that I
• 1:06:09
  will hold on to, you know? And your life is forever
• 1:06:11
  shaping. Me now, as we are here, going
• 1:06:14
  wildly shaping me. This is This is why we're here.
• 1:06:18
  This is it. This exactly this conversation,
• 1:06:21
  this day, this event, these relationships, this is exactly
• 1:06:24
  why we're here. Why Heather and I felt called to
• 1:06:27
  do this podcast. Truly a a higher.
• 1:06:30
  Calling. Yeah, like truly, truly.
• 1:06:32
  It felt the more I look back on this moment where Emily and I
• 1:06:39
  came together and she was like maybe a podcast.
• 1:06:42
  And I was like, let me think about that.
• 1:06:44
  And I mean, I was just in the shower.
• 1:06:46
  Like how can we make this? And boom, it developed and it
• 1:06:51
  but it's like this. It was a thread almost that like
• 1:06:54
  came down. And it it literally came to me
• 1:06:58
  while I was on an adventure based therapy experience
• 1:07:06
  retreat. Essentially I was hi Michael, I
• 1:07:11
  was there goes Northwest tracking company Michael Hughes
• 1:07:15
  who is. On one of our episodes.
• 1:07:17
  I don't know what episode number it'll be, but there he goes.
• 1:07:21
  Yeah, I was at my second year of participating as a kayak
• 1:07:30
  instructor support raft for First Descents, which is a non
• 1:07:35
  profit that takes young adults experiencing cancer on adventure
• 1:07:39
  based therapeutic experiences. And I was there having
• 1:07:46
  incredible life changing experiences with young adults
• 1:07:51
  and observing their experience, experiencing their life
• 1:07:55
  changing, them showing up, being scared of so many things, this
• 1:07:59
  new new place, new people, new experience.
• 1:08:03
  They're going through cancer treatment.
• 1:08:06
  So they're experiencing different things with their body
• 1:08:10
  and medical treatment and the the stories that I was hearing
• 1:08:16
  and getting to be part of and the the moments that were
• 1:08:22
  changing their lives really showed me that that was
• 1:08:26
  something I needed to tap into more.
• 1:08:28
  And there was so much potential there and there were so many.
• 1:08:31
  Every single person has a story and a life experience that is
• 1:08:36
  unique and profound and worth sharing and worth hearing and
• 1:08:41
  hearing. Those people's stories changed
• 1:08:44
  my life and I carry them with me everywhere.
• 1:08:48
  I got literally nobody has ever asked, which is kind of blows me
• 1:08:52
  away. But these ties?
• 1:08:54
  I have. Have you Yeah.
• 1:08:56
  Oh, I don't remember your time, but these are called bossies and
• 1:09:01
  it's AI believe like a Nepalese tradition.
• 1:09:07
  I couldn't speak totally rightly on it so I'm not going to, but
• 1:09:11
  every first descents week we stand in a circle at the end of
• 1:09:15
  the week and energetically choose somebody that we feel
• 1:09:19
  called to to share a bossy with. And we tie each others bosses
• 1:09:24
  and we tell them essentially how amazing they are and how much
• 1:09:29
  the spending time that week changed our lives.
• 1:09:32
  And then we carry them with us everywhere we go.
• 1:09:35
  Yeah, you. Didn't tell me the back story,
• 1:09:36
  you just said that those are first descent like you you get
• 1:09:39
  them on the 1st descent trips. Yeah, it's all, it's like a it's
• 1:09:42
  like a culmination tying up of the time that we spent together
• 1:09:47
  and then carrying it with us. And and I only have four people
• 1:09:52
  tied here, but I've. They're connected.
• 1:09:55
  Who are they connected to? Yeah.
• 1:09:57
  Yeah, they're connected also to other people.
• 1:09:59
  And there's 20 something of us in this circle.
• 1:10:03
  And while I'm only tied to one or two, we're all still sharing
• 1:10:08
  that experience and we all get to come back together and we
• 1:10:11
  like stay connected over the years.
• 1:10:13
  And I know that if I was ever in a place where any one of them
• 1:10:17
  lived, we'd see each other and it would be amazing.
• 1:10:21
  So back to the main character of this episode.
• 1:10:25
  Yes. Yes, you and Papa Joe, Yeah,
• 1:10:27
  thank you for being here and providing us with this full
• 1:10:30
  circle moment, moment and realization that it's people
• 1:10:34
  like you that are making. My name.
• 1:10:39
  Sorry Heather's smack my my booty.
• 1:10:42
  Calling. It was I had to.
• 1:10:44
  It was like the year of shorts were eating like your ass was
• 1:10:47
  eating your shorts and I just had to do it.
• 1:10:49
  Thank you. I'm flattered.
• 1:10:53
  Continue. Yeah, You know what we're trying
• 1:10:54
  to say over and over again and distracting ourselves.
• 1:10:58
  OK, let me think about. You get on the horse and we got
• 1:11:00
  to get rolling down downriver here.
• 1:11:03
  And let her, and let her in the spotlight.
• 1:11:05
  The stories of the people that are connected through your
• 1:11:08
  bracelet, the healing stories and what we were talking about
• 1:11:12
  before the battery died, the battery break.
• 1:11:16
  I know you were used the word privilege and I really like to
• 1:11:23
  actively reframe that idea of privilege just because I I think
• 1:11:29
  healing is a right. I very much subscribe to the
• 1:11:33
  belief that we have an innate desire to heal and towards
• 1:11:37
  growth. And I do think that we all are
• 1:11:42
  very deserving of safety and pleasure.
• 1:11:45
  And you know, and if healing is part of that, I also like to not
• 1:11:53
  think of healing as being like the sole focus, like I think it
• 1:11:56
  should also be other things and having fun and enjoying our
• 1:12:00
  lives. But I, I think that like, in
• 1:12:04
  terms of intergenerational healing that it is, it is like
• 1:12:08
  an intergenerational effort. Like the ancestors did what they
• 1:12:13
  could with their time. We have downstream wind right
• 1:12:16
  now and that is a blessing. That is a blessing for being.
• 1:12:19
  The ancestors are saying thank you.
• 1:12:21
  We're. On the for.
• 1:12:22
  Reframing that, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:12:26
  And that I, I, I don't feel like I, I don't know, maybe this is a
• 1:12:31
  personality thing, but I don't feel like it's just me at all.
• 1:12:34
  Like, like how you're, you know, part of your healing was
• 1:12:38
  witnessing the stories of these other people.
• 1:12:41
  I feel that way at that living ancestors and past ancestors in
• 1:12:45
  my life where it's like I, I feel like we're very much in
• 1:12:49
  collaboration, even with our individual healing and that we
• 1:12:54
  all have a right to that. And I, I think it's kind of
• 1:12:57
  quantum too, like you were saying, where it's like they,
• 1:13:00
  the ancestors who have passed are maybe also getting to
• 1:13:05
  benefit and enjoy from what they get to see in these lifetimes.
• 1:13:09
  And, you know, I think a lot of people feel discouraged with,
• 1:13:14
  you know, it's a healing is a privilege because of the way our
• 1:13:17
  society is structured. And that can be a huge barrier
• 1:13:21
  to accessing the resources that we need to heal.
• 1:13:24
  Yes. And if we look at it as a multi
• 1:13:27
  generational process and we think about our children and our
• 1:13:31
  children's children or even just the people I work with kids, I
• 1:13:34
  don't have my own kids. But you know, that's part of
• 1:13:39
  what is so inspiring about working with youth is that
• 1:13:42
  they've got the rest of their lives to keep going to build on
• 1:13:46
  that. Like whatever it is that we can
• 1:13:48
  give them, you know, they've, they've got a lot of time to do
• 1:13:52
  what they will with that and. And they can make a big impact.
• 1:13:57
  Yeah. So I.
• 1:13:58
  Think rather than looking at it as a privilege or looking at
• 1:14:01
  those things as restrictions and barriers, it's nice to think
• 1:14:04
  about this is a multi generational effort.
• 1:14:07
  Takes the pressure off. Stuff, yeah, a little bit.
• 1:14:09
  And even if I don't get to experience all of it, can it
• 1:14:13
  still be worth it to think about the impact that it's going to
• 1:14:15
  have downstream? I.
• 1:14:20
  Love. That, yeah.
• 1:14:22
  I think all the time of like damn, what am I doing to my son
• 1:14:26
  as I know I'm not perfect. I know I'm doing things.
• 1:14:32
  Some things I do better than I know my mom did, which is like,
• 1:14:37
  OK, I know I'm doing that a little bit better.
• 1:14:40
  I know I'm communicating a little bit better.
• 1:14:41
  I know I'm showing him more actual affection more.
• 1:14:49
  But then there's other things where I'm like, fuck, I fucked
• 1:14:53
  that up. Like I've been trying to reframe
• 1:14:58
  my own mind. Like I'm a guide, I am a guide,
• 1:15:01
  I am a guide. But he's also my teacher.
• 1:15:04
  And so let him teach me to guide him better.
• 1:15:08
  Don't like, I struggle myself with control.
• 1:15:12
  And so, yeah, I have to like, constantly be like, let go, let
• 1:15:19
  be. I'm a guide.
• 1:15:21
  I'm not a dictator. And like, you know, I don't
• 1:15:23
  know. You can't control the experience
• 1:15:25
  he's going to have. So and he didn't even
• 1:15:27
  necessarily come into this life with things that only you were
• 1:15:32
  supposed to help him with or teach him like he's he's look,
• 1:15:35
  he's got his own experiences he's looking for, right?
• 1:15:37
  That may not have to do with you.
• 1:15:41
  Yeah, I got to remember that too.
• 1:15:42
  And that's something that that's some that's a puzzle piece that
• 1:15:46
  I know, but it it gets missed in the like daily reminding that
• 1:15:51
  like he's his own human and and he's his own human.
• 1:15:56
  I mean he can pull from whatever sources to.
• 1:16:00
  Yeah, he has not learned from his own mistakes and he has to
• 1:16:03
  learn from other people. That's why community and tribe
• 1:16:06
  are so important is you need many teachers. 1 needs many
• 1:16:10
  teachers, even if it's for the same lesson.
• 1:16:14
  And he needs his own relationships too that are going
• 1:16:17
  to fill in those gaps, right? You can't be everything to
• 1:16:21
  everyone. You can't be everything to your.
• 1:16:24
  Can't be everything to one person.
• 1:16:25
  Yeah, I'm trying to also doing the whole like, I hope he sees
• 1:16:31
  how hard I'm striving for my goals and how hard I work.
• 1:16:35
  And like, I hope he sees that it's a weird scene because a lot
• 1:16:39
  of times I'm just on my phone, which yes, I, I do doom scroll,
• 1:16:44
  but it's more most of the time I am working on my phone in some
• 1:16:50
  capacity anyway, I have some guilt or something around that
• 1:16:55
  shame. I don't know, just associated
• 1:16:56
  with my kids are seeing me on my phone a lot.
• 1:17:00
  Well, I'm trying to put up a little bit.
• 1:17:01
  That's a you thing too. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:17:04
  So I got to anyway. But just setting a good example
• 1:17:07
  is yeah yeah is the. Best I'd like to get back to did
• 1:17:11
  you do you have any cool adventure stories you want to
• 1:17:15
  share that like with Pivotal? I have one last story.
• 1:17:19
  So Emily asked, what's the one indispensable tool that you
• 1:17:25
  bring on you on your person for adventures, right?
• 1:17:28
  That's the question. Mine is a firearm and I.
• 1:17:34
  First one, who has said that? Cool.
• 1:17:36
  Let me know. I would say before that is
• 1:17:39
  situational awareness and water of course, but if I'm going out,
• 1:17:46
  especially solo or just my sister and I, I have a baby dog
• 1:17:54
  to protect. So I I bring I have a 9mm
• 1:17:59
  handgun and I bring it with me most of the time and I felt sort
• 1:18:07
  of self-conscious about it for a long time because I was like
• 1:18:11
  this is feels unnecessary. It's heavy.
• 1:18:13
  I'm bringing it backpacking. I hope to never use it that sort
• 1:18:17
  of thing. But then one day my sister Paige
• 1:18:21
  and I were on a trip and we went to a Hot Springs in a pretty
• 1:18:27
  remote area in Idaho that you have to hike into.
• 1:18:31
  It's a short hike, but it was just her and I and Papa.
• 1:18:35
  And on the way in, we saw a guy walking.
• 1:18:39
  We were in our campsite, which was like pulled back away from
• 1:18:43
  the trail, and we saw this guy walking up to the Hot Springs
• 1:18:47
  with his pants down. Like his butt was hanging out.
• 1:18:50
  And we're like, that's weird. It's a hot day, but that's
• 1:18:53
  that's bizarre. And then we hiked up to the
• 1:18:56
  springs and we were having a great time.
• 1:18:59
  And he was there. He was there, way up the hill,
• 1:19:02
  but naked, standing there kind of flaunting.
• 1:19:05
  And we were like, all right, we're not going to go up to the
• 1:19:08
  further springs. We're going to stay down here.
• 1:19:11
  But, you know, he was, like, clearly standing over the edge
• 1:19:14
  with his weighing out. Just like, OK, we see you do.
• 1:19:18
  Strange. Yeah.
• 1:19:19
  Like no one cares. And then it was dusk and her and
• 1:19:23
  I hiked out with COPPA. We were hiking back to our
• 1:19:26
  campsite. Just you 2 and then the guy.
• 1:19:30
  We're the only ones. In COPPA, there are a few other
• 1:19:33
  people at the spring, but it was just Paige and I hiking out with
• 1:19:38
  Coppa at dusk to go back to our campsite.
• 1:19:41
  And a different man caught up with us from behind.
• 1:19:45
  And he was like, hey, did one of you leave your shoes back there?
• 1:19:49
  And we both had our shoes on. We're like, no, he's like, oh, I
• 1:19:53
  saw some sandals, which I had seen a pair of sandals up there
• 1:19:56
  too, so I didn't think too much of it.
• 1:19:59
  But then he continued to talk to us about just kind of other
• 1:20:04
  random things. Seemed like a friendly guy.
• 1:20:08
  Didn't didn't think twice about it.
• 1:20:09
  He mentioned the other naked dude and how weird that is.
• 1:20:12
  We were like, yeah, that's super weird.
• 1:20:15
  And then we're like, OK, well, have a safe night.
• 1:20:18
  We peeled off to our campground, off the trail, and he continued
• 1:20:22
  down the trail. And then moments later, he comes
• 1:20:27
  back, walks into our campground, walks over to me, which I was
• 1:20:32
  like in the middle of trying to change out of my suit.
• 1:20:34
  So I was still covered, but I was like in a vulnerable
• 1:20:37
  position. And he proceeded to tell us that
• 1:20:39
  there was a bear on the trail up ahead.
• 1:20:43
  And I was like, OK, well, thank you so much for letting us know
• 1:20:50
  we're good. Thank you.
• 1:20:51
  And he was like, yeah, I think I'm going to, like, try to walk
• 1:20:55
  around just kind of talking. But he's, like, looking around
• 1:20:59
  at our campsite at our stuff. And he asks me, do you have a
• 1:21:03
  firearm? And I said, yeah.
• 1:21:06
  And he said, oh, OK, He's like, so are you guys good?
• 1:21:11
  Then I was like, yeah, we're good, are you good?
• 1:21:13
  And he's like, yeah, I'm fine. So he left.
• 1:21:16
  We didn't see him again. It's now it's night time.
• 1:21:20
  And Paige and I started our fire at the campsite.
• 1:21:23
  And we were talking and we were like, there's no bear.
• 1:21:27
  And I think that this guy was maybe trying to suss us out and
• 1:21:32
  we were going to get abducted. There's two scenarios.
• 1:21:35
  There's either a bear in camp, which is fine and we're prepared
• 1:21:38
  for, or someone was trying to abduct us and was trying to
• 1:21:43
  figure out how vulnerable we were and so.
• 1:21:47
  The classic bear or man? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:21:50
  Scenario. Exactly.
• 1:21:51
  And thankfully I did have my firearm with me.
• 1:21:57
  Because if we hadn't, we were three hours from home, we were
• 1:22:00
  kind of in the middle of nowhere.
• 1:22:02
  I wouldn't have felt safe to stay with my sister and my dog
• 1:22:05
  in the campground overnight, just the two of us.
• 1:22:08
  I didn't sleep all night. How was his energy was off?
• 1:22:11
  His energy was off. Yeah, yeah, I can usually.
• 1:22:13
  But it was just the he was being intrusive and asking questions
• 1:22:18
  and weird, unnecessary in either way, whether it was a bear or a
• 1:22:24
  man. I was glad that I had my
• 1:22:26
  firearm, right, right. So now I don't question it.
• 1:22:29
  And now I just bring it and trafficking is a thing.
• 1:22:34
  Hell yeah it is. Kappa's ready to get off the
• 1:22:36
  boat. Damn.
• 1:22:38
  Wow, that is. I'm funny you should say that,
• 1:22:42
  Paris, because I just had a friend send me the concealed
• 1:22:46
  carry handgun experiential course to me this morning.
• 1:22:50
  Well, and we were talking about this maybe like 2 up two or
• 1:22:54
  three episodes ago about that it could be worth our while to.
• 1:22:59
  Yeah, so I'm. We're out adventuring solo women
• 1:23:04
  to have a little bit extra. I mentioned that on our trail
• 1:23:07
  work day that we just had to Sierra and she's like, I've been
• 1:23:10
  meaning to do that too. I just have Larry so I he's got
• 1:23:14
  all that stuff and so I've never needed.
• 1:23:17
  But she goes solo backpacking a lot, quite frequently, and I
• 1:23:21
  guess I should quite frequently. And so he sent that shit to me
• 1:23:26
  this morning. So it's funny that you should
• 1:23:28
  reinforce that. But I think the universe might
• 1:23:30
  be telling me, like Heather, get that.
• 1:23:32
  It's not a bad idea. Again, Fact Check me on this,
• 1:23:36
  but what I've heard as far as the statistics go with
• 1:23:40
  trafficking is that a group of three or more people is safer,
• 1:23:45
  but it's often times women with their children who get targeted
• 1:23:49
  because they're very vulnerable. That's good to be aware of.
• 1:23:54
  I I know a lot of women who have those crazy pivotal outdoor
• 1:23:57
  experience stories that involve being like running away from a
• 1:24:02
  man in the woods or. Here we can set it.
• 1:24:05
  Up, you know, a group of guys trying to abduct her while she
• 1:24:08
  was out on a a trail run by herself and I've heard heard too
• 1:24:13
  many stories to not. To not have a line of defense
• 1:24:18
  for yourself. Yeah.
• 1:24:19
  Not because, of course, we want to continue to experience these
• 1:24:23
  outdoor wilderness places freely and joyfully and safely.
• 1:24:29
  You want to sit in your spot if we're just sitting, like kind
• 1:24:32
  of. And not wanting to live in fear
• 1:24:38
  or hesitation. And so anything that we can do
• 1:24:43
  to have a line of defense, have safety, have protection, and
• 1:24:47
  know that we've got ourselves will make accessing places
• 1:24:53
  possible. Yeah, and I have my my handgun,
• 1:24:56
  but I also did my hunter safety training and a lot of the hunter
• 1:25:01
  safety was just learning about learning about guns, learning
• 1:25:04
  about firearms, learning about ammunition and all of that
• 1:25:08
  education helped build my confidence.
• 1:25:10
  And I've gone out and I've practiced a lot with my handgun
• 1:25:14
  and gotten comfortable with it. And because, yeah, it's not just
• 1:25:17
  about having it, yeah, you have to know how to use it.
• 1:25:20
  Yeah, how to use it and I think understanding the mechanics of
• 1:25:23
  it too, just it all just builds confidence and understanding the
• 1:25:26
  safety mechanisms of it too. And yeah, so that's my.
• 1:25:32
  Your outdoor gear that goes with you everywhere.
• 1:25:34
  Yeah, especially if I'm not in a group.
• 1:25:38
  You have a. Deeper sense of safety when you.
• 1:25:43
  It's more like confidence. I don't think I feel safer, but
• 1:25:45
  I just feel more confident that if something were to happen or
• 1:25:50
  to come up, I don't I don't have to dwell on it or sit there and
• 1:25:53
  panic and be like, what am I going to do?
• 1:25:55
  Am I going to run away? Am I going to spray my can of
• 1:25:59
  bear spray while I'm in my tent if someone approaches my tent or
• 1:26:03
  even if a bear approaches my tent and all I have is bear
• 1:26:06
  spray and I'm going to spray myself too.
• 1:26:08
  Like bear spray is a very good tool to have.
• 1:26:13
  And that's what I used to only carry with me until it was more
• 1:26:17
  like backpacking scenarios and Backcountry kind of stuff.
• 1:26:20
  And and then the the bear man encounter and it's like, oh, OK,
• 1:26:25
  I don't think the bear spray is going to really build that
• 1:26:28
  confidence for me. I want to have a few options.
• 1:26:33
  I know we don't necessarily need the concealed carry to carry a
• 1:26:36
  gun with us out in the wild, but I, I feel like I yeah, I feel
• 1:26:41
  like I want it because I don't know how to handle a gun at all.
• 1:26:47
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, you need, you need all of the training and
• 1:26:50
  practice and. And I don't.
• 1:26:52
  Lessons. For myself, I don't feel like I
• 1:26:53
  would feel 100% if like this is kind of rubbing on my neck.
• 1:26:59
  Hold on. Another microphone reposition.
• 1:27:04
  How many times will we do that little tally in the corner?
• 1:27:10
  We can add that, can't we? We can add like a microphone
• 1:27:13
  reposition counter. You don't want to be freaking
• 1:27:15
  out in a situation and then pull out a gun if you're totally
• 1:27:21
  freaked out, you don't know how to.
• 1:27:22
  That's not gun safety, right? Gun safety.
• 1:27:25
  Again, practicing so that you feel comfortable around firearms
• 1:27:31
  and with your firearm and confident having it on you,
• 1:27:34
  confident using it. And I don't think I would feel
• 1:27:37
  caught, like fully confident, unless I know the INS and outs
• 1:27:42
  of that machine. Yeah, that's.
• 1:27:45
  It's your gun and you are whatever the like.
• 1:27:49
  The military cleaning of the gun champs would be right.
• 1:27:52
  You are one in the same. Just like you feel more
• 1:27:55
  confident with any of your gear when it's yours, you know, like
• 1:27:58
  this is. You know how it works.
• 1:27:59
  She knows how her boat works. Yeah, don't fuck with my boat.
• 1:28:02
  Yeah, because I know how my boat works, and if you change
• 1:28:04
  something on it, it changes how I interact with my boat and it
• 1:28:09
  can throw me off like this wasn't how I left it.
• 1:28:13
  Who did this? Yeah.
• 1:28:14
  Paris, if you can recall this is kind of like a little spur
• 1:28:18
  offshoot of a question, but what is the most, like, wildest
• 1:28:22
  moment in the wild? Is it that story or is there
• 1:28:25
  another one you can recall like your most?
• 1:28:30
  Yeah, your deepest, most like wild story, like being deep or
• 1:28:34
  being just like a really fun core memory trip.
• 1:28:38
  Core memory trip. In the wild.
• 1:28:44
  I've had some really intense experiences with plants.
• 1:28:48
  Not I'm not talking about psychedelic plants or consuming
• 1:28:51
  them or anything, but a recent one.
• 1:28:57
  This was a year ago. I went on a student trip to
• 1:29:01
  Alaska and it was a group of a group of us who are all studying
• 1:29:06
  adventure therapy. And the purpose of the trip was
• 1:29:10
  for us to learn some facilitation skills.
• 1:29:13
  And I have had been living in Idaho for several years, kind of
• 1:29:19
  removed from community and removed from a lot of the
• 1:29:22
  friendships that I had had, especially here in Southern
• 1:29:25
  Oregon. And we were like our second or
• 1:29:29
  third day into the trip and our one of our guides, his name's
• 1:29:32
  Scott, is the one who actually the what is your water question.
• 1:29:37
  He did a lot of his PhD research on the blue mind hypothesis, I
• 1:29:41
  believe. He's just an awesome dude and
• 1:29:44
  he's a. Pause Blue mind hypothesis.
• 1:29:46
  What's that? Let's link it later, OK,
• 1:29:48
  Perfect. The blue mind hypothesis is the
• 1:29:51
  idea that being in, near, on or underwater has a positive effect
• 1:29:57
  on our mental and emotional well-being.
• 1:29:59
  It suggests that water naturally induces A mildly meditative
• 1:30:03
  state, lowering stress, boosting creativity, enhancing focus, and
• 1:30:08
  fostering feelings of calm and connection.
• 1:30:11
  Tada. Because we are.
• 1:30:13
  And he was also a huge plant person and plant nerd.
• 1:30:17
  And so he was, he was doing a lot of place based education
• 1:30:20
  with us on this trip in Alaska, in Juneau and Haines, AK.
• 1:30:24
  And I was so thrilled to be around a plant person again.
• 1:30:27
  I just felt so at home and I was asking, I was like, I feel like
• 1:30:33
  I recognized this plant and I don't know what it is and I was
• 1:30:40
  going to show him so if he could help me identify it was like it
• 1:30:43
  feels familiar. I think I know this plant.
• 1:30:45
  I kept seeing basically some like basil leaves on the ground,
• 1:30:49
  like basil BASAL and and then we come around a corner and it was
• 1:30:56
  like the the outlet of our river and it was like all silty and
• 1:31:01
  beautiful. And we come around this corner
• 1:31:04
  and there's like the mountains and the ocean and this plant in
• 1:31:08
  bloom and it was shooting star and I was like, I know you
• 1:31:12
  shooting star from here in Southern Oregon.
• 1:31:16
  And I look back at Scott and he saw me recognize the plant that
• 1:31:20
  I had been looking for and he saw me seeing that plant and I
• 1:31:23
  just fell to my knees. I just started crying and
• 1:31:26
  bawling. So I just felt it was the first
• 1:31:28
  time I had felt really seen in a while, and I really feel like
• 1:31:33
  the plants facilitate experiences like that for us.
• 1:31:37
  Like I needed to feel seen. I needed to feel a sense of
• 1:31:40
  community. I needed to feel that belonging
• 1:31:43
  and all of those things just kind of like lined up in that
• 1:31:46
  moment for me to access that. Yeah.
• 1:31:49
  And yeah, it was just it. Almost made me cry a.
• 1:31:53
  Little bit. Yeah, one of those powerful
• 1:31:55
  moments that was just like, it was just like a little bitty
• 1:31:58
  hike that we were on, but it was Alaska, to be fair.
• 1:32:01
  Like it was very beautiful. I had a unrelated to the plants,
• 1:32:05
  but I had a similar experience in Alaska.
• 1:32:07
  But I like came around a bend and just the view I got me and I
• 1:32:13
  just started sobbing and I had to like lean against the wall of
• 1:32:19
  this very thin trail that then it's like down to the ocean on
• 1:32:23
  one side and a wall on one side. And I just had to lean there and
• 1:32:25
  cry for like 30 minutes because it was just so it literally took
• 1:32:31
  my breath away. Yeah.
• 1:32:32
  Land is powerful, plants are powerful.
• 1:32:35
  Having people around like witness, that is super powerful.
• 1:32:38
  And again, like nobody was trying to facilitate a
• 1:32:41
  therapeutic experience. It just, it got it.
• 1:32:43
  Yeah, it just got right in there.
• 1:32:46
  Got me good. You needed it, and nature
• 1:32:48
  provides. Doesn't she?
• 1:32:50
  Cop is shaking off around the butterflies right now, too.
• 1:32:54
  He's a beautiful butterfly. Thank you, Paris, for your time
• 1:32:57
  and your insight and your life experience that you're sharing
• 1:33:01
  with us. We have a couple more things
• 1:33:04
  before we totally cut off. So if people want to connect
• 1:33:08
  with you, where can they connect with with you if you'd like them
• 1:33:12
  to connect with you? They can connect with me on
• 1:33:17
  Instagram at Paris dot Ray Rae dot Iha IHA.
• 1:33:23
  It's a private account, but it's it's my personal account.
• 1:33:25
  And that's really it for now. Great.
• 1:33:29
  If they wanted to become your client and have you as their
• 1:33:33
  therapist, is that something that could they access you
• 1:33:36
  through a professional Ave. So there's, there's a little bit
• 1:33:42
  of Gray area there with like referrals and counseling ethics
• 1:33:45
  and stuff. So I don't know that that would
• 1:33:47
  be appropriate. But I do offer coaching.
• 1:33:49
  And so that would be an alternative way to connect that
• 1:33:52
  would maybe be more appropriate in terms of it being like a very
• 1:33:57
  personal podcast and like personal connection.
• 1:33:59
  And also that like if they listen to your podcast, they
• 1:34:02
  might be a friend of a friend and therefore I should not be
• 1:34:05
  their therapist. 100%. Kind of thing, but coaching
• 1:34:07
  would be an option. And so I would say just find me
• 1:34:10
  on Instagram or I have Hello therapist paris@gmail.com.
• 1:34:15
  Cool. Thank you.
• 1:34:16
  Amazing. Yeah.
• 1:34:18
  And. See her in the wild?
• 1:34:20
  Yeah. Cat Yeah, literally catch us
• 1:34:24
  outside and then we do a deep squat.
• 1:34:28
  Is that how we end the? Show we'll do one over.
• 1:34:30
  Here, like on the boat, deep squats, OK?
• 1:34:34
  We can do we can do a deep squat and then and then we should
• 1:34:38
  probably hug feels like feels like a hugging and.
• 1:34:41
  Question real quick. Oh.
• 1:34:44
  Yeah, I was like, there's something else here, but I'm
• 1:34:46
  just going to like just going to roll with it.
• 1:34:49
  That's. Our question.
• 1:34:50
  When when you become an ancestor who has moved on, how would you
• 1:34:56
  like to be remembered? When I become an ancestor, I
• 1:35:02
  want to just be felt through the bodies of those that are still
• 1:35:07
  here after me. Maybe they could look at a plant
• 1:35:11
  and just feel something and feel like some continuity and some
• 1:35:17
  belonging in their. Lives that's me bitch I'm.
• 1:35:20
  Here I'm here. That tickle as me that.
• 1:35:23
  Breeze in the cottonwoods, reminding you that you belong.
• 1:35:27
  That's me. Cool.
• 1:35:28
  Yeah, I like that. And mostly I want to be like,
• 1:35:31
  she was a good dog mom. Cool, so you don't think you'll
• 1:35:34
  have children? I don't think I, I don't know, I
• 1:35:38
  don't know. I I it's always been a no for me
• 1:35:41
  but it could happen. Just curious.
• 1:35:45
  Yeah. The ancestors want you to, from
• 1:35:47
  what I've heard. They would.
• 1:35:49
  They would really like that. Yeah, we didn't even touch on
• 1:35:52
  Paris's cycle. Yeah, your knowledge.
• 1:35:57
  We'll have to get her on a. You can just see my ass right
• 1:36:00
  here. Sorry guys.
• 1:36:01
  We'll do a. We'll do a Part 2.
• 1:36:03
  Sex Ed and cycles only. Yeah, Part 2.
• 1:36:06
  Awesome. Maybe that'll be a hot tub.
• 1:36:09
  Hot tub hot take. That might be an.
• 1:36:10
  Easier hot take. That sounds cool.
• 1:36:13
  Yeah, hot seat. Yeah.
• 1:36:14
  In the hot well. In the hot sun.
• 1:36:16
  Let's do a hot. OK, OK, let's do it.
• 1:36:22
  Take my life. Check it off so I can.
• 1:36:23
  Yeah, me too. Feel.
• 1:36:25
  Feel the hug. Better take it off.
• 1:36:31
  Take it off, we're just going to do a quick naked hug.
• 1:36:35
  This is where it becomes R rated.
• 1:36:38
  This is This is why we stopped doing the interviews.
• 1:36:41
  On the river. It's probably over there.
• 1:36:44
  OK. Yeah, should be over there.
• 1:36:50
  Thank you, thank you both, thank you.
• 1:36:53
  It's such a lovely way to get to know you both better too.
• 1:36:56
  I loved it. I'll never forget.
• 1:37:00
  This is going in the memory of Spankbank.
• 1:37:02
  Thank you. You're.
• 1:37:04
  Going to be signature. Spankbank All right, Wildly
• 1:37:09
  wonders. That's a wrap.
• 1:37:10
  Thank you, thank you, thank you for hanging out with us on the
• 1:37:13
  Go Wildly podcast. Seriously, your ears, your
• 1:37:16
  energy, your vibe and in the world.
• 1:37:18
  And hey, the pod is usually going to drop on Mondays, but
• 1:37:21
  let's be real, sometimes it's Tuesday.
• 1:37:23
  And sometimes laugh be life in and the river calls louder than
• 1:37:26
  our calendar. Baby we out there.
• 1:37:28
  Adventuring. Either way, we'll show up in
• 1:37:31
  your feed with stories that make you want to lace up your boots
• 1:37:34
  or paddle out. So please go ahead and do all
• 1:37:36
  the things like share, comment, subscribe, smash the buttons,
• 1:37:40
  click all the bells, throw us a bone on YouTube, and come play
• 1:37:44
  with us on socials. That's how our little adventure
• 1:37:47
  family grows. Quit staring at your phone or
• 1:37:50
  whatever you're doing and go jump in a river A.
• 1:37:52
  Touch. A tree climb, a tree howl at the
• 1:37:54
  moon, or whatever gets you out there.
• 1:37:56
  Until next time, stay feral, stay curious, and for the love
• 1:38:00
  of dirt, go wildly. We're going to meet you out
• 1:38:03
  there.