Latest / A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast / 2022 in REVIEW and Online Queer Faith Communities w/ Jenna Tenn-Yuk

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2022 in REVIEW and Online Queer Faith Communities w/ Jenna Tenn-Yuk · A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Whether it be faith in God, faith in others, or faith in yourself.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: We are brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program and Unbound the interactive journal on Christian Social justice for the Presbyterian Church usa.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: I am your host, Lee Cato,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm your host Simon Dune.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast for this episode, which is coming out after Christmas and before New Years, that wonderful holiday time where we hope a lot of you are not working and spending some time with family and relaxing, but if you are working, know that we're praying for you and we hope that you're still able to get some rest and relaxation during this time.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: And as always, I am joined by the always working Lee Meto
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: always like, I'm, it's, I don't know, it's just always, I've always got work with me and that's, that's the issue.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Well, especially with publication, it's just hard cuz I also edit Unbound, which everyone to check out just sun bound.org and sometimes you just have to post something.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you have to, you have to keep social media train going, you know, but it's okay.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: I think it's also part of the, uh, creative genius, for lack of a better word.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Just desire to always be working on something.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Always got a project going.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: And that also is something that people, people should realize is that like, you know, if you're a creative, sometimes you just can't stop.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: And that's okay because if I do stop all I I I'll just be thinking about it anyway,.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: So might as well get it all out.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: That's the thing.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Get it all out.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: But I do take time.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I do take time.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: I'm excited.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: I'll be home for Christmas.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: You know, we're getting a cabin in the mountains for New Years, so that's where I will be when this pod, when this episode comes out.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: , I'll be in the middle of the mountains, so, um, yeah.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Well, we're just gonna have a sort of brief intro before we get to our guest segment, but we did wanna let everyone know that as it is the end of the year, some folks have been asking about our thoughts on this year, this 20 20 20, ah, how many twenties is it this year of 2022 as it comes to a close and what it's meant for the podcast.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: What are things we've learned, what are things we've enjoyed?
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: And so we're just gonna share a couple thoughts with everybody.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Lee, what do you think about 2022 for a matter of faith?
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: A Presby podcast?
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: It's been a wild year, hasn't it?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, we have over a hundred episodes.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: We have been doing this for how long?
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: How long have we been doing this?
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Since, I think technically since March, 2021.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: So we have been doing this for a long time and you know, someone asked like, will we ever take a break?
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: And that, and the question is maybe, but we don't think we should right now.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: And I think it's been wonderful and it's been a lot of hard work and we've met a lot of cool people.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: You know, we talk and it's not, and I hope people realize like we do have like short guest segments from, for maybe some podcasts, but we talk to them for a long time.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: And so we have long conversations, uh, before and after.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: And it's always really fun to, to meet people and to, to have these conversations.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: And we do it a lot.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: It's a constant grind, but it's, it's something that is also fun and it doesn't normally feel like work.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: And working with Simon, I mean, I think I see Simon more than I see anybody else.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: I work with, same cause Cause we do do this all the time and, and podcasting is not the easiest thing.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Uh, but it is something that is very rewarding and I think we've produced some really cool things.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: So I'm very proud of 2022.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: It's been a lot, but it's been a year of, you know, we got a new website and we have our listening guides and we've, we've have our Sibling Spanish podcast and you know, and advocacy watch.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: And we did GA watch and there'll be more bonus content coming up in the new year.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: And there'll also be maybe another sibling podcast in the new year.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: So I think that is something that is very exciting and something that we're very proud of and we've been very intentional about to offer a platform to people who may or may not always be heard and to do so in the ways they want to be heard.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: Whether that be through language, whether that be through the guests that are invited on.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: So Que our Spanish sibling podcast, you know, is doing very well too and has really introduced a lot of topics into that context that I think have been very powerful and we hope to kind of spread that even more wider.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: So yeah, 2020 two's been something.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think 2022 has been great for us.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: And in terms of learning and growth, I'm really grateful for the way some of our relationships with, I guess you might call them partners and has grown over the last year, including, particularly with Westminster, John Knox Press, and just sort of the general ability to reach out to folks, uh, especially authors or writers and say, Hey, we really appreciate your work.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Do you want to come on the podcast?
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: And a lot of people are saying yes.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: And we're very grateful to everyone who has come on the podcast and we look forward to bringing more people on spotlighting more great work being done in the realm of faith, justice, and church life and just responding to more questions.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Again, we don't have answers, we just have thoughts and responses based on our own experiences.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: And we're also really grateful to those of you who have written in and left a review talking about your experience with the podcast.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: And we're just gonna highlight a few of those now.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: More recently, mother Grubber wrote in on Apple podcasts that the podcast is thoughtful and engaging.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Lee and Simon are always ready to listen and discuss the questions that are pressing on the church and people of faith.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Be sure to send them a note if you have a question of your own.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Love that.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, mother.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Send
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: Us, send us a question, y'all.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: We always can use a question
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Faith podcast at pc u s a.org.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Or on the website a matter of faith podcast.com.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: There's a place to put a question in if you want.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: I also want to go back to the very first review we got, which was, uh, by posted by Go Big Train, which I just think is a wonderful username, by the way.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: .
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Love
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: That.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: Who wrote that?
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Go Big Train says they are happy.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Um, sorry.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Go Big Train says happy.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: I discovered this podcast.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I just found this podcast and listened through all the episodes.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: It's a great resource for Presbyterians and anyone else wrestling with social justice slash religious questions.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: ,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Which is pretty great.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: And finally I'll do, we'll read one more here, uh, listening from Idaho writes in that this is an excellent resource.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: I appreciate the work Lee Simon and their wonderful guest hosts are doing with this podcast.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: The episodes are filled with valuable insights for people of all faith backgrounds, not just Presby.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: And I encourage anyone who has ever had questions about how social justice and faith are connected to give it a listen.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: They tackle difficult issues with thoughtful, well-researched responses and provide a voice to questions all people of faith should be considering.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Thank you listening from Idaho.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank y'all.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: It's always good to hear from listeners and it's always good to share our appreciation to you and we hope more of you do it.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: You should go l send us reviews on Apple.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: It's very easy and on Spotify and wherever you get your podcast cuz we're everywhere.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Make it a new, make it a New Year's resolution.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: really easy one to tick off your list, leave a review, follow, subscribe to a matter of faith of Presby podcast.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: But we are so grateful again to everyone we've been able to bring onto the podcast and to our guest for this episode.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Jenna 10 Yuk, who you'll hear from now.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know what I was gonna say,.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: God.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Well we are so excited to be joined by a special guest today.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Joining us on this episode is Jenna 10 Yuk, who is a writer speaker e d i consultant and the founder of Sunday, which you can find on Instagram and we encourage everyone to do so.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: We'll have a link to that in the show notes.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Jenna, thank you so much for being with us.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Lee and Simon, I'm looking forward to our conversation today.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Jenna, it's so good to meet you and thank you for all the work you're doing online.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Uh, and that's what our question is about today.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Uh, what are the benefits as well as the challenges to building online communities for people of faith, particularly for people from marginalized communities such as members of the L G B T Q community and people of color.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: And we have the best person to respond to this, so take it away, Jenna.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there can definitely be a lot of benefits as well as challenges of building online communities, especially for marginalized communities.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: Um, but some of the benefits, you know, that place to be seen, heard, understood where we don't have to explain our identities or stories, you know, wonder if we'll be, you know, questioned, marginalized, or gaslit for being, you know, people of color in, you know, faith-based spaces.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: You know, on my journey of, of finding community, you know, we're navigating these different parts of who we are, will we be accepted for our queerness will be, we be accepted for our racialized identities and we have to navigate those spaces and say, okay, I'm accepted here for my queerness, but my racial, my racial identity is, you know, questioned or challenged.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, from these experiences, learning that cis straight white people won't create these spaces for us and that we have to create the communities that we want to see.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: So it's really important that our team, you know, are made up of other and trans racialized folks who, you know, have been in the church, who've left the church, who are questioning their faith and spirituality so that we can create a community where, you know, people from all walks of life can, can join and, and be seen in these spaces and ask these questions.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: And I remember, so I'm from a small town in South Carolina mm-hmm.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: , and I am of the generation of aol instant messenger Yeah.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: and the birth of social media.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: So we got to see it being, we got to see it made and be created and have all these, you know, it just introduced us to a lot of things.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: And I always say that, you know, those platforms though, they were, they could be a little, especially at the beginning, a little bit unsafe for some people mm-hmm.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: .
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: But for me it was a great way to escape and to meet people where I was questioning my identity, you know, questioning who I was as a person and trying to figure out like how to live into my queerness even when I was younger.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: .
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: And those were, that's how I found other community was on online because I lived in a small town and there was no other, there was no really other way to do so mm-hmm.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: .
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: And so when I saw Sunday, I was like, what a great way to, to build community, especially for people who may be, you know, like where I'm from or who may not be able to connect as well.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: And so I wonder how, if you've seen that in your experience and, and the work that you're doing for communities specifically online, because it is a lot more accessible, I think.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: Definitely.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: You know, your, your story just brings up the times when I was, you know, closeted on my computer, typing in gay Christian and seeing what was out there because of, you know, I grew up in evangelical Christian communities, so obviously, it wasn't an affirming space, but to see that people like me existed, that it was even possible to be and Christian or be, or even be asking these questions was so important.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: And for so many of us who aren't seen or heard in our communities, to be able to find that online is so important and powerful.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: You know, for me, reading about stories, watching people share their experiences saved me, right.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: To know that I could exist as this person and what could be possible.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: And you talk about that accessibility piece, we can reach people from anywhere.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: Like if we just created it for, uh, in person, then there'd be so many others who would be left out of these spaces.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: And, you know, there's so many people who, where it isn't safe or they're not able to meet in person either.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: So being able to offer this online platform is really important.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: What would you say are some of the challenges, particularly in trying to cultivate this community online?
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: I know some folks here online and they kind of scoff at it.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: I would like to think that, uh, COVID and the Pandemic has taught us that online communities are very valid and very real, but some folks might still be skeptical, but also just the ability to bring people together, especially folks like as you both were saying, that probably maybe never would be able to meet in person, but can still develop that, that feeling of relationship and community.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: What would you say are some of the challenges in trying to do that in a more online space?
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: .
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: Well, I think with the pandemic, it has allowed people to see what's possible online and the importance of these spaces.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: And also what you bring up the challenges of, you know, meeting online Zoom fatigue for some folks and, you know, thinking about the trauma that, trans and racialized people have experienced in the church, you know, and then to go to an online event, not knowing anyone, not knowing if this will be a safe space can be really tough for folks.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: That's really important.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: And how we're building our community because we've had that experience.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: We know what it's like to be marginalized in the church, um, for our queerness and for being racialized.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: And that building this community takes time.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, when you're missing something for so long, you want it so badly.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: And just to remind myself of, of even how long it took to build Sunday, you know, this has been on my heart for more than a decade.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: I remember meeting my friend Carro in, in Ottawa.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: I'm based in Toronto, in Toronto, Canada.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: And just meeting another friend who was and also a person of faith was, was really exciting.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: So we went on our journey of trying to find affirming churches and then being able to find a space, but then realizing they were mostly white.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: And, and then thinking, you know, how, how can we be safer here?
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Why do we always have to be the one questioning challenging to, you know, carve out those spaces for us?
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: So then, you know, meeting other and racialized folks, when we, um, came to Toronto and, and even being able to walk offer these workshops for free, uh, we, we received a, a grant through, um, the United Church Foundation and partnered with, um, another church with, uh, Reverend Michiko.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: Uh, because so often as marginalized communities, we do this work for free because we want these spaces so bad.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: Uh, but it's really important to pay and trans racialized folks for their work, for their emotional labor and to honor the expertise that, um, folks are bringing because, you know, our stories and experiences aren't honored in so many spaces.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: And, and, uh, some of the, some of the work that I've done within the community is also bringing up the ways in which white folk also perpetuate racism and systems of white supremacy, even within a community that is marginalized and how we are also to do that work, you know, as white folk within our own community.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: And so it has been very interesting to be in spaces that are, you know, said to be welcoming specifically in the church and in our context here is it's a very white church.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: It's the Presbyterian church, so it's a very white denomination, but also seen as very inclusive denomination.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: But the inclusivity may go only so far in, in talking about specifically, you know, racism and white supremacy within, within that system as well.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: .
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: And so it's, it, it is such a great example of, of cultivating a community with that as the basis because the church, that wasn't, that wasn't the basis of its beginning.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: , well, the institutional church, let's say.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Um, and so, so it is, it's just awesome to hear that that is something of a foundation of what you are building.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: And so I wonder, um, yeah, if you could talk a little bit more about Sunday and all the things that you're doing, maybe some things that are coming up, um, that people may want to get involved in.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: And I it's also awesome that you're based in Canada.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: I think you're the first Canadian organiz thing we've had on here, so that's awesome.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: .
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: You know, a lot of online communities, the ones that you see are based in the us So bringing in the Canadian voice and perspective is, is also important because we have these challenges here, you know, on a much smaller scale.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: Um, but I just wanted to, uh, get to what you said around, you know, white affirming spaces.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: They want to be more diverse, but we're just used in a tokenistic way of just like, okay, we'll bring in and racialized speaker or do a workshop, you know, but we're not the ones who are organizing at the outset putting in our voices.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: Um, the difference of being, you know, one of the leaders in these spaces versus just being invited to share.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: Cuz it can be very challenging to change these systems and these places, uh, from the outside versus being on the inside and, and making those changes as well.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, having a space where, you know, these are for us and by us is, is really powerful because we don't see that in a lot of, uh, church communities.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: And so doing it online has allowed that opportunity.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: And so, uh, a big part, our, our posts, you know, that's one way that people can find community.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: I think of all the times, you know, I read or saw something affirming, you know, what that meant to me.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: And then being able to offer online events facilitated by different and trans racialized facilitators has been great.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: So then being able to meet other people online, and not only in Canada or in Toronto where, uh, some of us are based, but to, you know, meet people in the US and abroad has been really great.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: And you know, we're still very new.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: We started a year ago.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: And so I think, you know, you can always have lots of ideas, but these communities evolve with the community.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: You know, what are people looking for?
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: What are they hoping for?
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: And being able to respond to that is, is important to us to see what, what is actually helpful for the community.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: That's beautiful.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: I'm a member of an online community, progressive Asian American Christians mm-hmm.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: .
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: And something that they do that I think is pretty wonderful is that it is being progressive.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: It's also affirming and inclusive, and you can post questions related to identity, queerness, whatever it is you can post it there.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Or growing up evangelical, there's a lot of people, a lot of folks that post in there mm-hmm.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: .
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: But something that those admins and moderators of that group that they do that I really appreciate is if if someone poses a question mm-hmm.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: an innocent or honest question, but maybe it's, dare I say, slightly problematic, like the question's intent is correct, but the way it's phrased centers, whiteness, white supremacy or straight heteronormative norms mm-hmm.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: , and they'll just put a little comment in that says, Hey, we love your question.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: We really appreciate it.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: to be, to be respectful of other people in this space.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Uh, we think maybe this question should be rephrased like this mm-hmm.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: , and usually people will change their language right away.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: They're like, oh, I'm so sorry.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you for the correction.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: And then we're able to keep going on with the conversation.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: But that way there's been that moment of learning mm-hmm.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: , and that's something that I've really appreciated.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: And I'm curious in the, in the digital age,, um, what does it mean to, to be an ally for those of us that are not in the, in the community specifically.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Because that's something I think that, like, in that Facebook group they're doing a great job of doing is just reminding people of the importance of their language and offering suggestions to, to tweak it slightly mm-hmm.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: .
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Um, but what would you say for those of us that would like to consider ourselves allies, how we show up in a, in a digital space as well, if that makes sense.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Or maybe we know how to, uh, dare I say, not raise our voices, but center the voices that need to be heard.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: .
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Definitely.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: Being an ally in the digital space is, is interesting, right?
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: Because we can all share a post, we can make our own posts, but does it stay there?
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: And I think, you know, we share the post, great.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: We're an ally, we talked about this topic, but what kind of work are we doing internally?
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: You know, how are we for example, you know, decolonizing, deconstructing white supremacy, our faith colonialism, asking these questions.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: And so it's important that we can learn from, you know, online spaces, share, share the work of marginalized folks and, and credit their work.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: You know, even in this space, who are the, the quote unquote, you know, influencers or experts At the end of the day, you know, white people will be the ones who are heard and valued and validated, and they're not questioned in the same way that and trans, um, people of color are.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, thinking about who are you following?
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: Are they diverse?
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: Are they intersectional?
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Are they anti-oppressive?
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: What kinds of questions are they asking?
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: You know, I think for a lot of quote unquote progressive Christians who are asking these questions or who have left the church, they're kind of in the deconstructing phase.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Um, but what does it actually actually look to Decolonize?
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: What does it look like to, uh, think about the impacts of colonialism, the continued impacts in our communities, and to follow those voices, to center those voices and to, you know, share their work if you're able to pay them for their work.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: You know, we do so much emotional labor as marginalized communities because we care about our community, but we deserve to be paid and compensated for, for the work that we're doing.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: .
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: And, and that those work takes time.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: I think people, they wanna be a good ally and they wanna learn and support, but to take time, right?
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: Like we all make mistakes.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: We're all on our learning journey.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: And to come from that humble space, you know, I've been in this work for a long time, but I'm still learning too.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: And, and to Yeah.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: Carry that, that mindset in, in our work and allyship as
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: And I really appreciate the work that you're doing.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: And I found Sunday, well, through a friend who also follows Sunday on Instagram, and I saw it, and the Post specifically the one about gaslighting mm-hmm.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: people, folk
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: , and how the church does that mm-hmm.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: and it is a carousel of images, and I just want everybody to know that, yeah, again, like these are images, but they all also very impactful.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: And to kind of push that, you know, a lot of people that we work with and a lot of others in the church really do, just don't think it impacts anything.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: And I want people to know it really does.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: And I think that any, I think it is so important for people to, to, to enter spaces like Sunday and, and kind of adjacent, uh, accounts of, of things of similar things like that, because it really does make a huge difference in people's lives.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: And so I wonder, you know, again, what would you say to people who may have the mentality that it's just an image that it's just, you know, social media, because social media can get so, you know, people talk about it, and I get some of it is problematic, specifically now that with Twitter and Elon Musk and like all the conversations we're having about social media.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: And so I wonder how we hold those tensions together as well, and how do we, you know, move forward in this work that I think is very, very important, but also, you know, utilizing, utilizing platforms that can be problematic.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: And so I wonder how y'all, how y'all hold the tension in that, because that's something we struggle with too, because we use a lot of social media and having those conversations.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: .
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a, a great question.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: I think it's important to remember that there are people behind the images.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: So these aren't just, you know, ideas.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: There are people with lived experiences.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: And to remember that it's not just some random account, that there are stories and experiences, uh, being shared to communicate, idea to communicate, uh, that experience.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: And, and I think on social media, people think they can say whatever they want to say, and without remembering that it can be really harmful, you know, uh, being online, putting yourself out there, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've shared my story of, you know, growing up in the church, and I don't know how it will be taken, what people will say unless they're saying it to my face, you know, after a talk or online.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: And, and that can be really challenging because when you're doing, you know, anti-oppressive work, it can be very vulnerable, especially if you're bringing in some of those personal experiences.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: And I think people forget that how, how difficult it is to even put yourself out there.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: And the amount of times as you know, as people, that you're just coming out over and over and over again, whether that's online or in person or in any other space.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: And so I think just even if you disagree with a post, you know, what can it look like to operate in the nuance to have conversations?
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: And again, if you are marginalized, you don't have to do that.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, if you are in a space where you can, that's great.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: But I think a lot of times, you know, from what I've experienced or what I've seen, uh, when you're marginalized, you just wanna help people get there.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: But then you're putting yourself out there to be questioned, to be challenged.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: And that does a lot on a person.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: And there are times, you know, where people will say harmful things to me.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: And if I have the energy to help them through that journey, I will.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: And other times I just can't.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: And that's okay.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: And it's not your responsibility to help people understand.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: So, you know, know if in your life, those people aren't able to do that for you.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: You need to seek out other resources, right?
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: And that's why online can be really wonderful because you can learn from other people's perspectives and be able to apply that in, in your life and support your, you know, your and trans friends, your racialized friends, um, through that learning.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: But online can definitely be a, a tough world.
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: You know, we see which accounts get ho what's the word they call it?
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: Can not canceled, but which accounts get paused by Facebook or Twitter?
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: What, what's the
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Word?
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Getting blocked or banned.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Blocked or blocked.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: And yes, yes.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: And, they're not so straight white men who are getting banned from these platforms for the most part.
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, Elon Musk is just like banning every journalist and any person who's challenging him, but you know, what type of work whose voices and experiences get banned?
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: It's marginalized communities.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Well, Jenna, we are so thankful to you for the work that you're doing for the communities that you are trying to foster and support.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: And I would call that a ministry.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: So we appreciate the work that you are doing in that ministry and the, the folks that you're, you're doing it for and with.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: And we'll be sure to have links to Sunday as well as to your own website in the show notes so that folks can check it out.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: And thank you again so much for coming on the podcast.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: , thank you for having me, Simon and Lee, I've enjoyed our conversation.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Thanks everyone for listening to this week's episode.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: And I'm on my cell phone because me and Simon are enjoying our holiday and I forgot my microphone.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: But we hope everyone has had a great holiday.
• 34:43
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• 34:45
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• 34:47
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• 34:52
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• 34:56
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