Latest / The Remnant Radio's Podcast / Nephilim, Giants, and Demons: Why Jesus Went Where Joshua Didn’t | BLK SHP Scott

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Nephilim, Giants, and Demons: Why Jesus Went Where Joshua Didn’t | BLK SHP Scott · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

0:52
SPEAKER_00: Everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of remnant radio.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: In this program, we got Black Sheep Scott with us, and we're going to be discussing well all kinds of fun stuff.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Ancient Near East.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be a fun program.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: You guys stay tuned.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Today we've got a guest with us who goes by the name of Black Sheep Scott and we're going to be tackling today, man, all kinds of fun stuff.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: Ancient Near East.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: We're going to be talking about some of the Nephilim stuff, demon stuff.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be an interesting program for us today, as always.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: But without further ado, I want to toss it over to my buddy Michael Miller, who's going to introduce our guest before we dive in.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: What's up, you guys?
1:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: So Scott from Black Sheep Podcast, his stuff came on my radar.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: One of my elders here at Reclamation Church in Denver told me, hey, I think you'd really like this podcast.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: And so he's turned me on a few good things.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: And as soon as I listened to it, I just started going down the rabbit hole and I loved it.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: And I happened to be in Nashville doing a podcast with the Blurry Creatures.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: And they happened to have an extra copy of this book as well.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, no way.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: I was like, you had him on your show.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, yeah.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: I was like, I'd love to get a hold of him.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Because I couldn't find anything online to get a hold of Scott.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: And so they happened to have his number and connected us and had some fun conversations.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: And then here we are a few weeks later, and we've got you on the podcast.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: And super thankful you're here joining us.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Scott, tell us a little bit about yourself.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Tell us about Black Sheet Podcast and also any literature you produce besides this one, Dynasty of Slaves, which I highly recommend to all of you out there.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: Go check it out.
2:21
SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
2:22
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you guys having me on.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: I do try to stay a little mysterious, hard to get a hold of on purpose.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: I I I'm not exactly a recluse or like a hermit, but I mean yeah, I'm pretty close.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: So YouTube doing YouTube and being public is very much of a stretch of my comfort zone.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, I I do a YouTube channel, teach the Bible on YouTube, and mostly I stay in like the the histories and mysteries is sort of what I like to how I like to characterize it.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: I do like to give people enough to nibble on to go on their own rabbit hole chases.
2:55
SPEAKER_02: So I'm glad that you guys you found the same thing there.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: I'm very glad to hear that an elder recommended it to somebody in their church.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: That's that's high praise in my opinion.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of weight on elders' shoulders to recommend good stuff, so I appreciate that.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to be here.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: I've been a fan of Remnant for a while.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: So when when you reached out and said that Luke had told you about me, I was like, man, this is this is rarefied air.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm hearing from Remnant.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: This is great.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: We don't think of ourselves as that impressive.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: So anybody gets an invitation for us, I'm like, I don't know if they'd be interested.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: We're just running over here.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Very different perspective there.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: We're we're with each other quite a bit.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: We know that we're not that impressive.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: So if you spend enough time with us, you'll pick up on that as well.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh well, anybody who's been running a podcast for almost 10 years is impressive.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: I mean, like the drop-off rates and podcasts is is is worse, is worse than the I don't know, I can't think of an example, but it's very bad.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: A lot of most very, very few make it to nine years.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: So congratulations.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: I I think it's I think we enjoy each other and we enjoy the conversations.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: None of us went to seminaries, so like this is like free education for Josh and Michael and I.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: And it forces us to be in the text, it forces us to be constantly studying and interacting with arguments out there, and and if I I think it's just we have fun doing it.
4:13
SPEAKER_01: That's probably the biggest part of it.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: But but bro, when you and I spoke, you you I had asked you a number of questions.
4:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm in more of the charismatic space, I'm I'm out there casting demons out of people, and so I was very curious about some of the history and origins of evil spirits and those kind of things.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: But then you brought something up about the the Canaanite conquest that I had never heard before.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: And I had actually just taught through Joshua.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Like we're now in the book of Judges.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: So there's there's just this is just going to be a fascinating conversation, I think, especially for our audience.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: For those who are out there familiar with the Deuteronomy 32 worldview, Michael Heiser's work, Joe Malomale, and some of the uh the stuff he's picked up on and is propagating today, then you're gonna love this show in particular.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: And so Josh, maybe sorry, not Josh.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: Scott, maybe you can give us a little idea of what you want to talk about today.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so like I said, I I tend to traffic in teaching the uh biblical histories and biblical mystery stuff.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: And of course, the mystery side is gonna take you into spiritual warfare because it's such a uh it is a mystery.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: Even still, it's a mystery.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: Even to those who who are on the front lines of demonic conflict is how I like to say it, of all kinds, still have a difficult time expressing it and describing what's going on and describing their experiences.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: And so, even in the context of real live experiences, it's still mysterious.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: So it's impossible, also, in my opinion, to read the Bible and with eyes toward a supernatural worldview and not see the spiritual warfare and the demonic conflict or evil conflict, however, you want to say it, painted all over the place.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: Even in pla even in places that looked looked like there's nothing there.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: It looked like there's just a you know normal conversation or a normal interaction, or in a lot of cases, you know, nothing special about the locations that you're reading about.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: There is still a supernatural layer behind the narrative.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of what I do then is teaching the stuff that people don't recognize or don't see and kind of bring it to the surface to say there's some spiritual, supernatural significance to this.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: What's interesting, so like Michael, you said that you you know you experience a lot of you cast out a lot of demons, you experience a lot of demonic conflict in different ways, right?
6:32
SPEAKER_02: You do a lot of deliverance work.
6:33
SPEAKER_02: I don't at all.
6:35
SPEAKER_02: So in in in complete transparency, my experience with with demonic conflict is not in the context of deliverance at all.
6:43
SPEAKER_02: It's really much more personal experience, just my own life, and then the academic, you know, studying the Bible and seeing what the Bible says about it.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: And so it's interesting, sort of comparing notes.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: Just even that one conversation that we had a few weeks ago, comparing notes of your personal experience and my academic, really almost purely academic study, how much it overlaps, and that there's plenty of plenty of plenty of harmony in both experiences, I guess you could say.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: I thought that was pretty interesting.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I had this conversation with the guy from the Dancing Toaster.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: I'd listened to a podcast he did on the origins of Lilith.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Like, what's the different lore out there and what's but what's most likely the honest story here, or what's the most biblically accurate one?
7:26
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, and then I next thing I know, I I actually am doing deliverance and I run into something that responds to the name Lilith.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: And that just like that that was terrifying and exhilarating all at the same time.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: And so the more people I can find that are actually doing the work to explain these things and their origins, the better.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: And so when you and I were talking through Joshua in particular, I I found the whole Canaanite conquest incredibly interesting story in general, especially because of the the you know what happens just leading into it with Sihon and Bashan or Og of Sihon, I think, and I can't remember the other guy, but these are like giants.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: And but then you start listening to your show, and you have a number of theories of where these things come from.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: And then in particular, you have some things to say about the Canaanite conquest or the failure to actually finish the Canaanite conquest.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: So take us down that pathway.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Start there with the the spiritual significance of these conquest narratives, and then and then where we go from there, especially as we get into the time of Christ.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: So okay, so the I believe that the that what happened in Babel and the ensuing chaos and what I call redemptive estrangement that happened at Babel and the ensuing spreading out and dis and uh dis disownment of the peoples that God did there.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't know if much of your audience has much context for a supernatural worldview or Deuteronomy 32, but I believe that that had a trickle-down effect into the geography itself, right?
8:56
SPEAKER_02: Dr.
8:56
SPEAKER_02: Heiser used to teach this, I think Dr.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: Mudamalis taught this, I think Burton has taught some of this.
9:01
SPEAKER_02: So I'm definitely not, I didn't I didn't discover this myself.
9:05
SPEAKER_02: I I learned most of this and then started to put some of the more pieces together myself.
9:10
SPEAKER_02: So the the land itself has a lore to it.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: And the more that I study what's going on in specific areas or regions or even specific cities, I see a pattern in it.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: So I'll just jump straight to Joshua's conquest.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: So the land itself was given to Abraham.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: You see it in Genesis 12 and 15 and 17, and it's uh there's a specific area of dirt for lack of a better term.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: There's a specific area of dirt that belongs to Abraham and the covenant line within Abraham's family, right?
9:42
SPEAKER_02: So this passed down to Isaac and then Jacob and then Jacob's family, Israel.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: And that dirt is not enjoyed by that family the entire time they're in Egypt, and then they come out of Egypt through the Exodus, God delivers them, they come through the law at Sinai, and they come and stand at Kadesh Barnia, and Joshua and Caleb, and then 10 other guys go into the land to spy it out.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: And Joshua and Caleb come back and say, hey, we can take them.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: But the consensus among the spies and amongst the people is we're not going to go in there because there's giants in the land, and beside them we look like grasshoppers.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: And so, of course, that's the initiation of 40 years of wilderness wandering for the nation of Israel as sort of a cleansing, sort of a consequence, you know, a little blend of judgment and of uh purification.
10:26
SPEAKER_02: And then you get to Joshua, and Joshua steps across the Jordan as the as the uh the succession line of Moses' leadership, and he's the one who's going to take the land.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: And he spends years taking land city by city, and then also some sometimes skipping areas and not going into areas.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: And by the time you get to Joshua chapter 13, God is kind of there's like this sort of wrap-up of the of the conquest.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: And God's like, You didn't finish the conquest, you've left much land unconquered.
10:58
SPEAKER_02: And he goes through and he names a bunch of regions, a bunch of areas in the land.
11:02
SPEAKER_02: And then at the end of that, God makes this sort of like a almost it doesn't necessarily feel like prophecy.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: It feels more like a promise of I'll finish it myself.
11:11
SPEAKER_02: But God says, I will go before the people and finish what Joshua was supposed to start or were supposed to complete that he left unfinished.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: And we don't really see God ever doing that in the rest of the Old Testament, at least.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: Like you get through to the kings, you get Saul, and Saul didn't do any of that, of course, and then David, and David finished off a little bit, kind of finished off the Philistines and some of the southern area, what we would later call Judea.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: But all in all, the land of Canaan was conquered but not cleaned out, like the inhabitants of Canaan weren't removed from the land.
11:46
SPEAKER_02: And so it stays that way through the rest of the entire Old Testament until you get to Jesus.
11:54
SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, if if you know the rest of the Old Testament, you get to sort of the pinnacle of Israel's existence as a nation and their worship of Yahweh exclusively in David's reign and Solomon's kind of David and Solomon are kind of the pinnacle.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: And then after Solomon, it starts to decline, and we see a constant or steady decline all the way to both exiles.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: You got the Assyrian exile and then the Babylonian exile, and they're taken away, right, as a result of idolatry.
12:21
SPEAKER_02: The reason for the idolatry is because they left those people in the land, the land that was was left unconquered.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: And of course, the northern kingdom of Israel goes first because there is far more presence of idolatrous people and the idolatrous Canaanites left in the area.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: And then fast forward about 550 years or so, and you get Jesus.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: And Jesus is born into a world where the Greeks have already come and gone, the Babylonians have already come and gone.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: He's in a Roman world.
12:47
SPEAKER_02: All these pagans have ruled over God's people.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: He's born into a Roman world with Roman gods and a land where they in a technical way they sort of aren't under Roman rule, but it's really just a prop, not necessarily a province, but a you know a vassal state of Rome.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: And Jesus has a it seems like Jesus has a map in his mind of where he's going.
13:15
SPEAKER_02: Now, to somebody casually reading through the Gospels, you might it might feel more random.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: Like he goes south, then he goes back north, then he goes south, he goes back north.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: He spends a little time, he goes a little east, he goes a little west, and it seems very sort of like unplanned.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: Like Jesus kind of has an idea.
13:33
SPEAKER_02: You get to Mark chapter four, and it seems like Jesus has this on a whim, let's go across the Sea of Galilee and to this other place over there to the Decapolis, and we're just gonna go, and it's the middle of the night, and they're gonna go across the sea.
13:45
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't seem like there's much rhyme or reason to it.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: But if you kind of zoom out and you take an inventory of the places where Jesus went to, and the things that he did when he went to those places, you see a pattern emerge that lines up almost perfectly.
14:02
SPEAKER_02: And honestly, if you probably if you if I did more academic work, I probably find it would line up perfectly.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: Where Jesus, where he went to is the places where Joshua didn't finish, and the things that he experienced in those places were the kinds of things that is our like finishing work similar to what David did with Goliath, that Joshua should have done during the conquest 1400 years or 1430 or so years earlier.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: And so the maps line up, the uh a type of activity lines up, and even where the even where the activity is not happening also makes sense why it would not be happening in those areas.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: And so you get a picture of Jesus as this I call him like the I call him the greater Yeshua, right?
14:49
SPEAKER_02: Because they share a name, the greater Joshua, who is going where Joshua should have gone, doing what Joshua should have done, and getting a picture of the initial conquest by Joshua looked to be a kingdom conquering land for an earthly kingdom.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: But when Jesus shows up, what he shows us is that the entire conquest from the beginning was spiritual warfare, even though it had a physical geographic component, it was ultimately spiritual warfare.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: And Jesus finishes the conquest through spiritual warfare, even though he never picked up a sword, even though he never put down a flag, he didn't, you know, lay siege to any cities.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: That's not what his his conquest was, but he certainly did win every battle that he came into contact with every person or every personality or being that he came into contact with.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: And it all started really with his temptation there east of Jordan.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: So that's the that's the premise.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we can go into some of the details of where he went to in our life.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's let's start off with you said that he goes to certain regions and that those in those regions it seems to correspond with finishing work from Joshua.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's it it corresponds to both activity and geography.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Because those statements are kind of real broad, I don't quite see it yet.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: So give me give me a couple of examples of finishing work and then the geographical connections there.
16:24
unknown: Okay.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: So we'll start really sp we'll start really, I guess, specific and also well known.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: Right?
16:29
SPEAKER_02: Jesus' first exorcism happens in Capernaum in a in a synagogue in Capernaum.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: And if you're putting, I'm not sure if you're gonna be able to put a map up here at this moment, but Capernaum is on the west coast or western side of Sea of Galilee, in Galilee.
16:45
SPEAKER_02: Now, most people would think of Galilee as Jesus' home state or whatever.
16:51
SPEAKER_02: Like that's where he grew up, right?
16:52
SPEAKER_02: He's a Galilean, grew up in Nazareth of Galilee, right?
16:55
SPEAKER_02: So Galilee doesn't seem like a foreign land, but Galilee is in the north.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: If you go back far enough, it's in a part of the northern country or northern nation of Israel, which was ruled over by a succession of idolatrous kings and queens like like Jezebel.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: And so the whole region is not by the time we get to Jesus, it seems very innocuous.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, nothing special happens in Galilee.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: What good can come out of Nazareth, right?
17:25
SPEAKER_02: There's there's nothing special about Galilee.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: But spiritually, Galilee in the north is specifically the air surrounded by and really the center of where Joshua didn't conquer or didn't finish the conquering.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: And so if you go to Joshua chapter 13 and Judges chapter 1, you see kind of a list of places, and a lot of those places are associated with what's later called Galilee.
17:50
SPEAKER_02: If you look in Isaiah as another example, and Isaiah, Isaiah calls Galilee Galilee of the nations, and this is, you know, this is 800 years after Joshua is supposedly supposed to have finished his work, right?
18:03
SPEAKER_02: His conquest.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: And by the time you get 800 years later in Isaiah, he's talking about Galilee as Galilee of the nations.
18:09
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you have a Deuteronomy 32 worldview, of the nations is not an innocuous phrase.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: It has meaning to it, it has some significance to it, right?
18:17
SPEAKER_02: Because in the Deuteronomy 32 worldview, or what I call the redemptive estrangement, the nations were given to the foreign gods or given to the lesser gods or the sons of God or however you want to say that.
18:27
SPEAKER_02: They were given to other powers to rule and reign over them.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: And God kept Israel for himself as his own inheritance, he says there in Deuteronomy 32, 8 and 9.
18:37
SPEAKER_02: And so when Isaiah says it's Galilee of the nations, he's giving us a hint that this is not occup, this is not conquered territory that that ever really properly and fully belonged to Israel.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: Like they had cities in Galilee, yes, that was considered part of the land.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: You know, the we had the a couple of tribes that were given that land up in Galilee, and then even north of there.
18:59
SPEAKER_02: So we have, you know, Manasseh and Ephraim, and well, West Manasseh and Ephraim and Dan is up there.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: So there's some tribes that have the northern region, but they're not really cleared out.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: And so when Jesus shows up, he's a Galilean, the first demonic conflict that he has is actually in a synagogue, in a essentially what you would call a pre-Christian church.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: I mean, like the Christian church formed in its exact, almost exact context structure, format, prototype of the synagogue.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: And so, like you have this pre-Christian local church called a synagogue, and a guy comes in and he's possessed with a demon, and Jesus casts out this demon.
19:49
SPEAKER_02: And that happens in Capernaum.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: That's in Galilee, in a specific region that Joshua left unconquered and stayed unconquered, stayed uncleaned out, right?
20:00
SPEAKER_02: Impure for the rest of Israel's history, all the way up until Jesus.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: And over and over again, we see that exact that same type of pattern play out, where there's a geographic place and a type of conflict that happens that mirrors what should have happened or could have happened back in the book of Joshua, 1400 years before.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: So let me let me get some connect some dots here for me.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: So you said that the conquest of Joshua was more than just a physical conquest, that it was a spiritual battle as well.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: And it was both and not one or the other.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: But then Jesus shows up finishing it on a spiritual plane.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: Explain to me how it was spiritual for Joshua.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: Like his failure to remove the people that had sort of taken the land that belongs to Yahweh and the people of Israel, how that wasn't just a physical removal, that even back then Joshua, if he had conquered it, it would have been a spiritual thing as well.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: Connect that dot one.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: Sure, for sure.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: I would say honestly, I would I would frame it, Joshua's conquest as primarily spiritual with a physical or earthly component, right?
21:10
SPEAKER_02: So I would say that what Joshua was called to do was to clear out the land of spiritual impurities.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: Now, the way that that is articulated in Deuteronomy or Numbers and Deuteronomy and Joshua and Judges is the term giants or Nephilim.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: So we have this, I'm sure many people are familiar with the idea that Nephilim in the Hebrew is translated giants or great one or men of renown or however you want to say that.
21:38
SPEAKER_02: And so these great men or giants, we'll just use the word giants just to keep it simple, is sort of like a physical placeholder stand-in for the what I would believe, I believe later Paul calls principalities and powers.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: I believe it's the same thing.
21:53
SPEAKER_02: It's a if a it's a different phrase, but it's the same spiritual entity, or at least the same spiritual enemy.
21:59
SPEAKER_02: Maybe not entity is the best word, but enemy for sure.
22:02
SPEAKER_02: And so when Joshua and the other spies go in in numbers, I think it's chapter 13, when they go into the land and they spy it out and they're like, oh no, we can't go in, they don't say there are too many cities.
22:12
SPEAKER_02: They don't say the land is too rough, they don't say that there's too many cities with walls, then we're not gonna be able to conquer the walls.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: They cite specifically giants in the land.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: And if you go back to Genesis chapter six, you can see if you hold this particular worldview that the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they reproduced from that unholy union, you could say, these Nephilim giants, and then you fast forward, these giants are still around after the flood, and they're in the land of Canaan.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: And the reason they don't go in, the reason they disobey God, I should say, is because of the giants.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: And then when they go in, that's specifically to cast out and kick out the giants, and it's the giants there that are the ones that still remain that are that are left unconquered or unpurified from the land.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: And so when Jesus is going in, I believe that he's.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: He's essentially going straight to the giants.
23:09
SPEAKER_02: And every time that Jesus interacts with a demon-possessed person or a legion of demons possessed in a person, I believe that we're seeing a strong man concept play out.
23:20
SPEAKER_02: This concept of David and Goliath, where David is a type of Christ.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: David, a type of Christ, stands before Goliath and says, you know, how dare you, how dare you, well, I forget the phrasing that he uses, but stand against the the army of God or the the army of the God.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: Block the armies of the living God.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: That's what it is.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate that.
23:46
SPEAKER_02: And he and again, we see with human eyes, which is the only eyes who were born with, right?
23:52
SPEAKER_02: I believe.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: We see what we see.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: We see a kid with a sling against a giant.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: And it's an awesome story of bravery, courage, and trust and faith, and proving that he is, you know, he's has he's the right person to be the next king of Israel.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: And what I believe is we're seeing a prototype of what Jesus is going to come and do through his whole earthly ministry.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: David is a type of Christ.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: There's many different things that he does as a type of Christ.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: But I think one of those specific, very tangible things is that he's standing there across from a spiritual enemy of God, and he slays, he casts out, and there's even he even goes to the nth degree of slaying the giant Goliath.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: He cuts off his head as this symbol of spiritual victory over an evil enemy, right?
24:44
SPEAKER_02: And so then you see Jesus coming into the same region.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: Of course, Goliath, David's conflict with Goliath wasn't in Galilee, but it's the same kind of conflict, right?
24:54
SPEAKER_02: Standing across and then meeting face to face, one-on-one, this strong man concept that Jesus talks about.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: He teaches about it when he's talking to the Pharisees, when they accuse him of casting out demons via the hell's above.
25:05
SPEAKER_02: And he specifically says that you know a house divided itself again against itself can't cannot stand.
25:12
SPEAKER_02: And he goes into this odd thing about if you want to take an area, if you want to take somebody's house, you have to first go into the house and defeat the strongman.
25:20
SPEAKER_02: And then once you've defeated the strongman, you can go in and take his goods, right?
25:24
SPEAKER_02: And the idea that I've heard preached is that this is like a the whole thing is a uh a metaphor for for accomplishing what you want to and uh overcoming obstacles.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: And that's fine.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: That's I mean, hate pastorally, I don't hate that, but like theologically it's not great.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: And so what Jesus is really saying here is something much more much closer to literal, where there is a strong man that's holding hostage a house, and you have to go in and defeat the hostage holder or hostage taker in order to take what he is holding hostage, and that's Jesus over and over in the Gospels in the territories where the strong men are still standing.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: Dude, that's okay.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: That's fascinating.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's crazy interesting.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: Jesus is ministry in a lot of places.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: For sure, battling with.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: My brain wants to deal with the objective data points of where Jesus is doing ministry before I get into like life application stuff.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm built more theology than I am practice.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the regions Jesus is doing ministry in.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: Could someone not argue, hey, you know, hey, this is a good take.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: Jesus is doing ministry where Joshua doesn't, but also he does ministry in places that was conquered.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, isn't that also true?
27:00
SPEAKER_00: Jesus, you know, in his doing signs, wonders, and miracles everywhere.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: How do we know that this is not a correlation that we're picking up opposed to something that the authors are intending to record?
27:12
SPEAKER_00: Because you're right, like I can go to somewhere here in Ada, Oklahoma, and a great atrocity, you know, took place, you know, with Native American people one day once upon a time.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: And you know, to say, okay, now the gospel is being preached here.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: Here's a great example, right?
27:28
SPEAKER_00: We've got a uh a guy who moved here to Ada from Denver, Colorado, like two or three years ago.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: Come to find out his great-grandfather was a missionary to the Chickasaw Nation.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: He didn't minister necessarily in the city, but now the city is the headquarters, the capital for the Chickasaw Nation.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: So, like, oh hey, that's kind of cool.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, maybe God is like, you know, sovereignly trying to redeem something that he started, right?
27:53
SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, I could do that.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: Or I could say maybe it's just a coincidence, right?
27:57
SPEAKER_00: So my my question is like, okay, yes, Jesus maybe did some ministry in these regions, and maybe the scope of the data would actually be more compelling.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: What are the regions that Jesus did ministry in that correspond to where Joshua didn't defeat enemies?
28:12
SPEAKER_00: And maybe there's enough of that to go, okay, there is a correlation.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Is is the ordering important in the in the directions that's not just a one-off and computum.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: It's it's a it's a clear line.
28:23
SPEAKER_02: Sure, sure.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: So a couple of things first.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if an order, there may be an order.
28:29
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if an order, I haven't looked into order, I didn't think about order.
28:32
SPEAKER_02: So maybe I should go back and see like in the order that he went, is that the same order as Joshua?
28:36
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
28:37
SPEAKER_02: So I'll just say I don't know on that one.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: But I want to delineate a couple of things.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: When I say Jesus is where Jesus went and what he did, I'm specifically talking about exorcism of demons.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: So I'm not talking more generally about his preaching ministry or his healing signs and wonders, aside from casting out demons ministry.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: So, and also from again, because like I'm coming at this not from a person a perspective of uh extensive demonic conflict and confrontation myself, like maybe you guys have.
29:11
SPEAKER_02: But for me, I'm delineating between possession and what might somebody might call oppression or or more generic conflict or confrontation, right?
29:19
SPEAKER_02: So I believe that that many of the diseases that Jesus heals, blindness and lame and all of these things, that there is definitely evil or demonic influence involved.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: But I'm separating the healing ministry of Jesus from the exercising or exorcism ministry of Jesus, and specifically because of the strongman concept, right?
29:43
SPEAKER_02: So the when Jesus goes to the man of the pool of Bethesda and he heals the man of the pool of Bethesda or the pool of Saloon, either one, he's not standing in opposition in a conflict, like a like a like a head-to-head battle like David and Goliath kind of situation.
29:58
SPEAKER_02: I believe that he is delivering for sure that person, that man, but he's not that we don't have the same interaction of he's speaking to a demon and then like direct contact.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: It's not quite thundering the kingdom of darkness.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, let me let me compare this then, Scott.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: So like Luke 13, we're told this woman is bent over, doubled by a spirit of infirmity.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: That Jesus says she's been bound by Satan, but you don't see a big demonic conflict.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: You see him place his hands on her and she's healed.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: You don't see like a the same kind of thing you see with the exorcism you just mentioned, or what we see uh with the decapolis, the demon there, the Garrison demoniac.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: So what you're I think what you're trying to differentiate is there's demonic activity that Jesus deals with, but when it comes to what you would now refer to as the strong man, Jesus, when he goes to these regions, it seems like he's dealing with a strong man.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: He's having that kind of an encounter.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: Is that accurate?
30:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: So the like the the strong man situations are is the same concept as like again, like a David and Goliath kind of thing, where he is the one you have to defeat.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: Whereas Luke 13 is a fantastic example.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Agin Saihan, yeah.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you have Luke 13's a fantastic example because he does, he's not, he's not contesting directly against that demon.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: Now, there may be something happening in the spiritual spirit realm that Luke is not communicating to us.
31:24
SPEAKER_02: Like in fact, I'm sure there is, right?
31:26
SPEAKER_02: There is there's something happening in the spirit realm that he's not communicating to us in that particular passage.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: But I even believe that that's intentional.
31:33
SPEAKER_02: I believe that they're the stories are told differently because I believe that there's actually different things happening in the realm.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: There's something different and from a significance perspective.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: That woman particularly was oppressed, and this is the language I use.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: So it may be imprecise in deliverance circles, but that woman in particular was oppressed by a demonic influence or power, but that's not the same, I would say, as the possessed person in Capernaum who is standing as a strong man standing against Christ.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
32:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you see this in in Matthew 12 as well, with the blind mute boy when Jesus mentions the strong man, and he's he's having this sort of argument with the Pharisees.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: Isn't that where it's mentioned?
32:17
SPEAKER_01: Am I missing something?
32:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's in Matthew 12.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: We're clear.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Keep going.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, talk to you.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: So so unpack some of the strongman accounts.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: Which ones would constitute the strongman that correspond to Joshua?
32:31
SPEAKER_02: So a few a few obvious ones or popular ones, because there's there are there are examples that are sort of breezed over, right?
32:38
SPEAKER_02: He cast out demons in this area or in this region, and it's it's sort of like summarized, right?
32:42
SPEAKER_02: And the same thing with the uh the the disciples who go out and they say that you know they come back amazed.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: They say that, you know, they we even cast out Jesus demons in your name, and they listen to us, and Jesus is like, Here's he responds like with this I'm not surprised at all.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: In fact, I saw I saw Satan cast from heaven like lightning, and he's like, I'm like, I'm celebrating with you guys that that we're winning, right?
33:04
SPEAKER_02: So there's like summaries of exorcisms, but there are some specific stories.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: So like the but there's summaries of warfare in Joshua, too.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: And so the demoniac of the Gadgarenes or Gesserenes, it has a few different names in different gospels, but of the decapitus region.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: That decapitus region is over in Bashan, the area north east of the Sea of Galilee, east and north, I should say, of the Sea of Galilee.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: That's Bashan, that's Og's old territory.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: And what's interesting about Sihon and Og in Joshua, where you know we see Rahab.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: Rahab is terrified of the Israelites because she said we heard about Sihon and Og.
33:47
SPEAKER_02: But what happened with Sihon and Og is there was a defeat of Sihon and Og, but the people were left.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: So there was a military defeat, but it wasn't a cleansing, it wasn't a taking of the land and removing the people, like we see in Jericho, for example.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: Joshua didn't make that exam, that same mistake with, say, Jericho.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: He did make, or his people made that same exact mistake in AI, but not Jericho.
34:07
SPEAKER_02: And so you see the defeat of Sihon and Og is the kings of those people, and they defeat the military, it's a military victory, but the people are allowed to stay.
34:15
SPEAKER_02: And so again, you fast forward to Jesus in Mark chapter 5 in this case, and he crosses the Sea of Galilee, and he has this conflict with a whole legion of demons.
34:25
SPEAKER_02: Some people would say a thousand or two thousand, depending on like which version of Roman history legion equals.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: But there's a lot of them, right?
34:32
SPEAKER_02: A whole group of demons in this one guy that makes him physically powerful, makes him crazy.
34:40
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we what we would say is you know, probably kind of uh mental disorder that the people were afraid of him, broke chains and he couldn't be just subdued by anybody.
34:49
SPEAKER_02: And he, Jesus, in a very simple without without struggling at all.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: In fact, I think I find it somewhat interesting that in this particular case, it's less of a forceful expulsion and more of an allowance.
35:02
SPEAKER_02: He allows them.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: I think the Bible says, or in my King James, it's more of like an allowance.
35:05
SPEAKER_02: You can you may go, and so the demon leaves and goes into the pigs.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: But you have again a strongman conflict standing against Christ.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: And it's and it seems pretty clear that Jesus crossed the Sea of Galilee specifically just to go see this one guy, cast him out of the out of the land, which by the way, the legion in Mark V says that they don't all they request is that they don't send him out or send them out of the region or out of the land.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: And I guess that I think in Luke it says there's a version of that that says don't to sit to it asked to not be sent into the abyss.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: But Mark V says, you know, send out of the land or out of the region, and then he leaves.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: He's like, Okay, I came over here, I beat the guy I needed to beat, spiritually speaking, and then he gets back on the boat and he goes back across, and that's where he has the the interaction with the woman, the woman with the issue of blood in Mark chapter, the second half of Mark chapter five.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: So you have another example of a of a strong man situation in Mark chapter five in the area of what was earlier called Bashan.
36:07
SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of connection between Bashan and Mount Herman and the bulls of Bashan at Christ's crucifixion, all these kind of things.
36:14
SPEAKER_02: So Bashan has a has a deep well of spiritual darkness there that Jesus goes over and he stands against the the legion that was holding that place.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: You have Jesus there in there, isn't there's several places there in Galilee.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna rehash Galilee of the nations, but then Jesus goes up to in one of the most I think it's just Mark chapter six or seven, and one of the oddest geographic side quests that Jesus takes is he goes up northwest, he goes to near to near to Sidon, and he meets the in a town outside of Sidon, he meets a Syrophoenician woman, and this it this interaction with the Syrophoenician woman is studied from lots of different perspectives because it's so just so unique.
36:59
SPEAKER_02: Jesus leaves the land of Israel, the the the given land of Israel, and he goes up to what we call Lebanon to meet this woman outside the city of Sidon, which was historically a Baal worshipping idolatrous city and still was by that point in time.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: It never it never turned around.
37:16
SPEAKER_02: And this is the city that that Jezebel, her her father was the king of Sidon, right?
37:21
SPEAKER_02: So Jezebel herself was a Sidonian woman, and he goes up and he talks to this Syrophoenician woman, and the end result of this conversation with a Syrophoenician woman is of course there's this like the the the controversial.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm using your quotes if you're listening.
37:37
SPEAKER_02: Controversial part of this conversation is that he's he the woman asks to be blessed, and he says, Why would I give uh the crumbs, or no, I why would I give anything to the dogs to feed the dogs, right?
37:49
SPEAKER_02: What's meant for the children of Israel?
37:50
SPEAKER_02: And she says, even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table, and he's like, Wow, that's actually a really good point.
37:56
SPEAKER_02: And it shows his his ability to transcend the physical, even when he's in he's in, even when he's in human form, incarnated, and in his human in human form, he's bound by time and space.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: He still is able to cast out a demon at a distance, right?
38:12
SPEAKER_02: And it shows us that he is specifically going to this place where it seems like he only goes there for a day and then he returns, right?
38:19
SPEAKER_02: There's not much to the story, which is again what's it?
38:24
SPEAKER_02: Here's another incredible thing, which I haven't taught this on my channel, I don't think.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: Is this the same region, the same place where Elijah went to?
38:30
SPEAKER_02: Elijah during the famine, there was a three and a half year famine in in 1 Kings.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: And Elijah is told, God tells him to go to Sidon.
38:39
SPEAKER_02: And he goes to Sidon, he meets the Sidonian woman outside the gate, and she's gathering some sticks to make uh her last meal for her, for her and her son.
38:48
SPEAKER_02: And Elijah says, Hey, instead of going and making a meal for your son, go ahead and give me some cake and bring me some something to drink as well.
38:54
SPEAKER_02: She's essentially saying, you know, like, or he's essentially saying, the thing that you're gonna make is your last meal, give it to me.
38:59
SPEAKER_02: And she does it, which is this big act of faith in 1 Kings, I think it's chap chapter 17.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: And as a result, God does this miracle through Elijah that her her bag or her pouch of meal, which is like grain, and her crews or this little jar of oil, never run out for the rest of her life.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: Like this becomes this this over this perpetually filled, overflowing supply as a result of her faith, and she feeds Elijah, and then God essentially in return feeds her forever.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: But at some point in this, his stay there, Elijah's stay there, the the boy falls and he dies, and Elijah raises him from the dead.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: And it's this like this this example of God sending someone, sending a prophet.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: This is again, this is post-Joshua, sending a prophet to a to a conquered area, almost like this small little reminder of my hand stretches even to this place.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: Like this is not, this is still unconquered territory, this is still barrel center of Baal worship.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: This is, I mean, this is right in the middle of Jezebel and Ahab, they're their intense idolatry out of in Samaria, or I guess northern Samaria.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: But God sends Elijah to this place that is later the same exact place where Jesus goes to, and he finds a woman and a single child that he takes care of in this very similar type of feeding motif, right?
40:21
SPEAKER_02: And Jesus finishes the work there, I believe, that Joshua left unfinished, that Elijah did in a type like in a type that Christ then fulfills that type.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: So again, it's another geographic place where there's a strong man that's dealt with.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: This is fascinating, dude.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Josh, I don't know if you feel this way, but this reminds me of like when we first listened to Carmen Imes talk about the Exodus and the 12 signs rather than 10.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: It's just like you're putting pieces together I'd never even thought, and the whole like food motif, I had never put that together either.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: But I didn't even connect that this was the same region.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: I know that that that area of Lebanon is the center of Baal worship.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: That's where you have Baalback, a ziggurat that's built to Baal, that's still there to this day.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: They throw concerts there now, which is just sort of wild to me.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: I I definitively refused to go there when offered the opportunity when I was preaching out there.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: But you've also gotten not far from there, Mount Hermon, just to the east.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: I could see it from where I was teaching when I was in eastern Lebanon.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's crazy.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: Just a few years ago.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: I remember I was talking about the whole where do demons come from?
41:34
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, well, some believe that it started actually right there, over on that mountain.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: I pointed to it.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: So anyway, I I don't have a question.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm just more expressing my own fascination.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: Josh, perhaps you've got one for him.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so okay, I I I love the the connections here.
41:50
SPEAKER_00: You've given a couple of really good examples of okay, this is unconquered territory.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: We see later on, God is reaching these people.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm let me let me just kind of line back the clock just a little bit, because in the couple of examples you gave, for example, the the the woman who comes to Jesus and goes, Hey, daughter's ill.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: I need you to heal her.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: And he's like, ah, dogs and dog food, and we give that to the we give the real food to the to the children of Israel, and she goes, No, but okay, that ties, I see that how that ties into Elijah, but how does that then tie back into Joshua?
42:23
SPEAKER_00: Joshua so I can see Christ as a type that goes, okay, Jesus is a is is kind of doing some recapitulation, it's probably not the right word, but like he is he's reliving Israel's story and doing it right, he's doing it well, he is displaying that he's the greater than the children.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's the greater Moses, he's the greater Joshua, he's the greater David.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: I go, okay, I see those connection pieces, but how do we tie that then to Joshua and what's going on with with his story?
42:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the the the region of Sidon and Tyre are regions that that Joshua left undealt with or unconquered when and during those conquests.
43:06
SPEAKER_02: So the the the continued presence of Baal worship in that region is evidence that the area was was not properly cleansed.
43:16
SPEAKER_02: And it and really, I mean that's that's the the core under the underpinning reason why the northern nation of Israel went immediately into idolatry like Baal worship and idol idolatry as soon as as soon as the the nation split after Solomon, they went right into it.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: Jeroboam set up an alternate, you know, a worship center in the north, and it was immediately idolatrous.
43:40
SPEAKER_02: And the reason for that, and of course it it spirals down until you get to the 700s or so or whatever it is, 750 something, or 780 something, when the northern nation of Israel is carried away in because of their idolatry as judgment for their idolatry.
43:55
SPEAKER_02: But the reason for that, the reason that all of that's still happening, and is because that particular region is left completely unconquered, and the Baal worshippers, the Asherah worshippers, are still there.
44:07
SPEAKER_02: Now, Jesus going there and he casts out this demon, he heals this girl from a distance, is a small picture again of like this these places that Jesus goes to in completing or finishing the unfinished work that Joshua unfinished, left unfinished when he finished his work, where he stopped conquesting, I should say, in Josh, in the book of Joshua.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so it's mentioned that's particular that particular location is mentioned in Joshua 13 4.
44:36
SPEAKER_02: It says from the south all the way to the land of the Canaanit, all the land of the Canaanites and Merah, it that is beside the Sidonians, which is the I mean, I guess in Jesus' day, she's called, or in Elijah's day, she's called the widow of Zarephath, but it's the same same region, small locale as Jesus goes to the Syrophoenician woman.
44:57
SPEAKER_00: So I'm tracking with you.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: So, like, just like David, he's fighting a giant because Joshua didn't take care of Bedness.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: Now we have Jesus who's fighting a proverbial giant.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: Demonic horde in the same way that David does.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: And the same is true of Elijah.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: Elijah's dealing with this, caring for this woman in a very rebellious area, and it's rebellious because Joshua hasn't dealt with it.
45:18
SPEAKER_00: Now her Jesus comes on the scene and Jesus is dealing with it.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really cool.
45:23
SPEAKER_02: In Elijah's case, it's Elijah's case.
45:25
SPEAKER_02: I just want to clarify what I'm not saying.
45:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying that Elijah fought the demon.
45:28
SPEAKER_02: I believe that what God did in that particular case is provided a safe space for Elijah to weather the famine in Israel.
45:37
SPEAKER_02: Because there was a there's this three and a half year long famine that that God brought to the mess judgment and that Elijah was going to be in the midst of.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: No, I hear yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm hearing that.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: It's not the same as confronting the straw man.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: I I'm I'm tracking with you.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: As it would be with the the the gathering demoniac.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: Let me ask you a question because I think what I'm hearing you suggest, at least potentially, is that where Joshua did conquest, and I don't know if this is your theology on the subject.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm agnostic on it.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: But I understand you to be saying that one Jesus okay, disembodied spirits of giants are demons.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: Am I am I hearing that?
46:26
SPEAKER_00: Am I picking up on that?
46:27
SPEAKER_00: Are you are you suggesting that as a possibility?
46:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm suggesting that as one explanation for a type of demonic or a type of evil spirit.
46:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't I think I mean I I think we sometimes maybe oversimplify evil spirits into like the one-word demon.
46:49
SPEAKER_02: I I I don't believe that it's that simple, but one simple explanation for some evil spirits that are specifically interacting and conflicting with Jesus is dead Nephilim and their their, I guess you could say their not their soul, but their spirit that's left and has nowhere to go.
47:04
SPEAKER_02: So that would definitely be like a Hiserite supernatural world, almost Enoch, right?
47:10
SPEAKER_02: So I that that comes from or this pulled from Enoch, I think also Jubilees, but I'm not sure.
47:14
SPEAKER_00: So okay, the reason I'm asking some of these questions is because let's say Joshua did conquest and he knocked out all of the the bad guys, just hypothetically speaking, those spirits would still be disembodied, right?
47:30
SPEAKER_00: They'd still be around and they'd still be opposing Jesus, right?
47:34
SPEAKER_02: They'd be disembodied, but the but the the conquering is to to remove them from their from their dominion of the land.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: So what Jesus, I mean like even Jesus, Jesus didn't, I don't believe.
47:46
SPEAKER_02: I mean I could be corrected here, but I don't believe he like uh destroyed the demon.
47:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't believe that the demon would no longer exist.
47:52
SPEAKER_02: I believe he would he removed or he took its dominion like it took its power or dominion from that particular space and person, right?
47:59
SPEAKER_02: And so the demon leaves, the demon is disempowered, but the demon isn't gone.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: It's it's Satan falling like lightning.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: His his his kingdom is being dismantled in these acts.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh and also its influence on the people.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you think if Joshua had done the job, we probably wouldn't have the kind of problems we see in judges.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, judges, the whole story is a consequence of the failure of Joshua to eradicate these other gods' influence on that region.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I absolutely yeah.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think my my question is kind of well, how I understand, you know, Christ disarming principalities and powers, disarming them is regional control, individual control, whether it's regional or individual is rather irrelevant to me.
48:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, think about Paul, he was a weapon in the hand of the enemy to persecute the church.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: And then Paul, after his conversion, is now used as an instrument of righteousness to build up the church and defeat God's enemies.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: So my understanding of defeat, my understanding of conquest is disarming authority.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: And when I think of the kingdom of darkness, I don't think it really pertains too much.
49:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, not to say that there aren't regional spirits that have territorial authority, but like that it is strictly relegated to land occupation as much as it is relegated to individual conquest.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: That if I can get these people to think with corrupt, evil, wicked, you know, thoughts, lifestyles, etc., that that is my kingdom being protected.
49:44
SPEAKER_00: When those demonic powers are removed, right thinking, right belief, right practice flows from that.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: That is the dismantling of that kingdom, and those individuals are no longer able to be used as the proverbial weapons.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm just I'm I'm I'm thinking through all of this because I think that there's both a go ahead, Miller.
50:02
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm just thinking of the strongman.
50:04
SPEAKER_01: Like I remember listening to John Wimber, who's a bit of a hero of mine when it comes to praying for the sick, casting out demons, all of that kind of stuff.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: He would read that Matthew 12 passage about the strongman and say, see, this is what Christ has done through his death, burial, resurrection.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: Like Jesus came and he disarmed the strongman, which is Satan, and now we are plundering Satan's home.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: But you're applying it in a similar fashion.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: It's just you're saying this is this the strongman is a particular entity over a region, for lack of a better term, or demon in a region.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: It's a demonic influence over a region.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: Is that accurate?
50:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and okay, so the the connection between a particular demonic influence or power in a region having demon having dominion there is understandably difficult to swallow, or it maybe even like I honestly I'm I would be fine if somebody found me for me a really good reason to not hold this view, right?
51:10
SPEAKER_02: But for for what what my research showed me is that where Jesus has demonic conflict, and specifically casting out demons, not the kind of conflict that's like we've said that is the healing in Jerusalem, is all in territory that Joshua didn't conquer.
51:26
SPEAKER_02: Whereas where Jesus goes, because he does go to places where Joshua did finish the work, and David after him finished what Joshua didn't finish, right?
51:33
SPEAKER_02: With you know, for example, Goliath and the other the other giants of that time, the Philistine giants.
51:39
SPEAKER_02: There is no the demonic conflict is not confrontational and dominion-oriented, it's not a casting out and uh uh like I love the way you said disarming, it's not that kind of uh conflict, it's healing, it's other signs and wonders, but not exorcism.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: So when Jesus spends plenty of time in in Judea, he's he it's not like he just goes to through Judea to get to Jerusalem and that's all he does.
51:59
SPEAKER_02: He spends time in Bethany and the outskirts of Jerusalem and everything.
52:02
SPEAKER_02: And so, but we what we don't see in that region at all, as far as I'm aware, and I've done research on this, I don't see any reported demonic possession and exorcism or casting out there in the region of Judea.
52:18
SPEAKER_02: Now, again, like there is there is someone who is brought in from Perea, which is on the other side of Jordan, east of Jordan, brought in, and there's a there's a there's an exorcism that happens after Christ's death and resurrection, the that happens in Jerusalem.
52:31
SPEAKER_02: But that's someone that's brought in from outside of Jerusalem into Judea for that to happen.
52:35
SPEAKER_02: In the entire New Testament, as far as I'm aware, all of the demonic possession and exorcism, that particular type of demonic conflict happens outside of Judea, outside of Jerusalem, in the in Samaria, in Galilee, and and then in the pagan nations, as Paul goes out, right?
52:53
SPEAKER_02: So as Paul goes on his missionary journeys, he interacts with and exercises demons, but that's none of that's happening in Judea and Jerusalem, which to me signifies something, right?
53:04
SPEAKER_02: That's the area that Joshua did finish.
53:06
SPEAKER_02: That's the area that's not mentioned in Joshua chapter 13 in Judges chapter 1, that God is saying you didn't finish it, I'll finish it myself.
53:14
SPEAKER_02: The areas that God mentions in Joshua 13 and Judges 1 are the areas where Jesus goes to and casts out demons.
53:21
SPEAKER_02: So there's a there again, it's like it's not explicit in scripture, so I'll grant that, but to me, it's more like a uh an interesting coincidence, right?
53:30
SPEAKER_02: It's like this like uh there's this old line from oh gosh, what's his name?
53:36
SPEAKER_02: Morpheus from the the movie.
53:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
53:39
SPEAKER_02: I can think of the movie, or whatever his name.
53:40
SPEAKER_02: I can't forget the movie now.
53:41
SPEAKER_02: The Matrix.
53:42
SPEAKER_02: The Matrix, yeah.
53:43
SPEAKER_02: Matrix, thank you.
53:44
SPEAKER_02: I remember his name, but not the movie.
53:46
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, he says where others see coincidence, I see providence, right?
53:50
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I mean it could just be coincidence, you know, it could just be that Jesus happened to not run into anybody, or maybe it's just the the gospel writers just chose to paint Judea and Jerusalem as a different type of ministry activity that Jesus was doing, and they just left out the exorcisms that happened there.
54:07
SPEAKER_02: That seems like too much of a coincidence to me.
54:09
SPEAKER_02: Like to me, it's like if it's not written in that region, not recorded as any type of thing happening in that region like that, then it probably didn't happen.
54:17
SPEAKER_02: And and what we're seeing, seeing is a is a is a pattern that matches Joshua.
54:22
SPEAKER_00: So no, I I was I guess I was trying to think through okay, why?
54:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, why does it matter?
54:29
SPEAKER_00: And I think it probably matters just for God to keep his word to Joshua that he would himself do.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: Exactly why.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
54:36
SPEAKER_01: But every part of it is is God fulfills his word, he's faithful.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: And so for those who would think that the con the conquest never happened or that God never pro fulfilled what he promised, you actually see its fulfillment in what Scott has just brought out.
54:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think that's right.
54:52
SPEAKER_00: Because I was thinking to myself, okay, that's why I asked the line of questions earlier.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: But I think this has happened, this happens anytime someone brings a new thought that I have to like wrestle with.
54:59
SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's definitely not me going, hey Scott, I don't know that I agree with you.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: It's just me going, okay, unto what end?
55:05
SPEAKER_00: Like the the demons would have been there if Joshua would have killed them, right?
55:08
SPEAKER_00: Like if if the argument is that these are disembodied spirits, then it's like, okay, what's the point then?
55:12
SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm kind of scraping my mind to go, okay, why?
55:16
SPEAKER_00: Is there some kind of cosmic battle that made this necessary in this moment?
55:21
SPEAKER_00: But I think the answer of, well, Jesus was just being faithful to his word is enough of a reason for me.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: Do you find any other kind of significance that you see there?
55:32
SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, Miller.
55:33
SPEAKER_00: No, yeah, absolutely.
55:34
SPEAKER_01: It does have ramifications for the future, too.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: For the, you know, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth.
55:41
SPEAKER_01: Like it seems like the extension of the gospel itself usually does require a removal of a strongman encounter, and then the gospel John Thompson.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking of his work.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: He talks about this pretty regularly.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: When they go into a new region, there's some kind of demonic confrontation that takes place.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: These men are from God, these men are from God, boom, demonic confrontation.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, you just go out throughout the book of Acts where the gospel goes initially, there is this demonic, if you will, strongman opposition that that seems to take place very early on.
56:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think John Thompson's done a good job of acknowledging that.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:19
SPEAKER_02: And and I think that's sort of yes, there's there is a a very much tied to God accomplishing and doing what he said he was going to do.
56:27
SPEAKER_02: That's Joshua 13, 6.
56:28
SPEAKER_02: He says, all the inhabitants of the hill country from Lebanon in the north unto this unpronounceable name in the south, all the Sidonians, them will I drive out from before the children of Israel, only divide it thou, and he tells them how to divide it.
56:41
SPEAKER_02: He says, Them will I drive out.
56:43
SPEAKER_02: And so I believe Jesus as God himself is coming to complete the the what seems like a very small, it's a it's not even a full verse, you know, in the Bible, this small little promise, and Jesus is coming to finish that work.
56:54
SPEAKER_02: And of course, Jesus, and there there are hints at it, like Jesus on the cross saying it is finished.
57:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, of course, there's a lot of things that Jesus finished there, but I think one of the things and that's encapsulated in that very simple phrase is the finishing of the work that started with Joshua, or really, I guess you could say started with Abraham, the promise to Abraham.
57:12
SPEAKER_02: It was a land given to God's people, and Jesus sent to save his people from their sins.
57:18
SPEAKER_02: I think again that encapsulates a lot, but I think we typically make that just about like the bad things we do, and not just not exactly really the sin of not doing the thing that he told them to do to begin with in 1400 BC to clear the land.
57:32
SPEAKER_02: And so Jesus is coming to not just save them from you know the their idolatry or their adultery and their lying, cheating, stealing, and to save them from their you know their their immorality, but also to save them from their failure to do and obey what God told them to do under Joshua.
57:49
SPEAKER_01: So I I love this conversation, Scott, genuinely, and I wish I could have more of it.
57:57
SPEAKER_01: Mostly because of the the work that I do just in general.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: There's more that I would like to discuss, and maybe maybe we'll get to a part two at some point in time.
58:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a wrap up?
58:07
SPEAKER_00: Do you have a video on this subject?
58:10
SPEAKER_00: Scott, on your podcast?
58:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've got a couple on my channel.
58:14
SPEAKER_02: One of them is, I think, titled something like Jesus has a cosmological map that we just discovered or something like that.
58:19
SPEAKER_02: And then another one, the second one is more specifically about this exactly, and kind of the general idea of this, and that's called the greater Yeshua.
58:27
SPEAKER_02: And both of those touch on it.
58:28
SPEAKER_02: But honestly, I mean like a lot of my videos reach into this theme a little bit here and there just to pull out the fact that Jesus was not done or that that God was not done with the land and that the land itself was significant.
58:39
SPEAKER_02: And we we we we we spend a lot of time making Jesus' ministry spiritual that we forget that that he was there in a land at a time for a people, and and a lot of what I try to do is connecting what Jesus was doing, of course, spiritually for all of us, in like for all humanity.
59:00
SPEAKER_02: Yes, of course, that's the all nations, but he was also there for a specific people in a specific time and a like in a place.
59:07
SPEAKER_02: And we we we lose track of that sometimes.
59:10
SPEAKER_02: And so I honestly I pull from this theme or motif a lot when in a lot of my videos.
59:16
SPEAKER_02: So, but there's two very specifically about it.
59:19
SPEAKER_02: One of them is directly about Matthew or Mark chapter five, and then the other one is really Joshua chapter 13 and the gospels.
59:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you would send me those links, and all I'll do is I'll link them up into this video so people can go continue to research because I feel like such a novice in this subject, I'm not even I'm not I don't even know what skilled questions to ask.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm you know, oftentimes it's new content.
59:40
SPEAKER_00: It's totally new content.
59:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, for me, I I like to do this thing where I read the book and then interview the scholar.
59:47
SPEAKER_00: But Miller was like, hey, we got to talk to this guy.
59:49
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, let's do it.
59:51
SPEAKER_00: So I I love this this dialogue and interchange.
59:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think if I can put you know, maps, pictures, kind of track some of that, even in the intro, it'll be a great discussion.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: But let me let me thank you so much for coming on to the program and uh let people know how they can connect with you, what places are great to pick up your resources, to listen to your podcast, things have you written, that kind of that kind of thing.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna let you off the hook because I haven't written this book yet.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_02: You said you want to read the book and then you know interview the author.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_02: I haven't written this book yet.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_02: This is actually my next big book.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_02: My first book was Dynasty of Slaves, and that dives into the archaeological record of Israel in Egypt.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_02: And so I put together a chronological key that places Israel in Egypt in archaeology.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_02: And that's on Amazon.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_02: That's already been published.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_02: That was published in May.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_02: And the next book that's coming in that series, it's a three-part series.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_02: The next book that's coming in the series is Dynasty of Victors.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_02: So in fact, I haven't told anybody about this, so I'm announcing this now.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_02: The it's it covers from the it covers essentially from Mount Nebo, Moses on Mount Nebo, all the way through to Solomon, about Solomon is where I'm gonna end this one.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_02: And it's the archaeological record, but it's also the spiritual underpinning, the background, which is also what I did with Dynasty of Slaves.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_02: It's what's happening in the unseen realm that God is doing, where that we miss often.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_02: And a big part of the story from Joshua, like Michael said, is Judges, and then judges as a precedent set for the king's monarchy and how that ascends to a victorious end at the culmination of the collapse of the late Bronze Age and the beginning of the Iron Age, and then Israel descends after that into what will be the third book in the series, but that'll be the next one coming out.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_02: I am on Amazon, so I've got eight books on Amazon now.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_02: Most of them are about 50-50 my teaching books, and the other half are what I believe are worthwhile like other books to read that are not necessarily biblical teaching.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_02: So you can check those out.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_02: Those are all under Black Sheep Scott or B L K SHP Scott on Amazon.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_02: I'm on YouTube, I'll send you a link to the YouTube channel.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_02: It's just Black Sheep or B L K SHP Bible Talk.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_02: And then the third one is on Substack.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_02: So I write pretty much every week I send out a blog post email on Substack to anybody who likes to read as well.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_02: And you're also a pastor in a church.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_02: So you're busy.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_02: I am.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, your church is in Florida.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_02: A teaching pastor in Florida.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, so glad to hear that uh you've got a lot of time on your hands.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on the show and making room for us.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that very much.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_00: Really enjoyed the discussion.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_00: It's I'm I'm gonna deep dive into this and have a lot of fun with it.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: But thank you so much for jumping on, Scott.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_00: We appreciate your time in.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm grateful for it, man.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_00: Guys, thank you so much for watching.
1:02:42
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1:02:48
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