Latest / The Bob Lefsetz Podcast / Carl Stubner

Transcript

Carl Stubner · The Bob Lefsetz Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Leftsett's podcast. My guest
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: today is Carl Stubner, CEO of the Shelter Music Group. Carl,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: what is the Shelter Music Group?
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Now, that's a good question, Bob. We're still trying to
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: figure that out. Now. We are a management company that
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: started right like two months before COVID's hit, and so
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: we've built this company over the last whatever that is,
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: three four years. In the first two years was hard
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: to keep it going, but I had this attitude that
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: in bad times grow faster, you know, and I just
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: kept on bringing him managers and signing more bands. And
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: we went from fourteen bands to seventy bands and a
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: staff of five to a staff of thirty. So that
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: is I've been over the last four years.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's just go talk me through the transition.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: What you were doing exactly before Shelter, What the vision
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: for Shelter was, Why was going to be different?
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Well, as I think, you know, I was at Sanctuary
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: at the end of the run, right and then Universal
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: bought it and I ran Sanctuary Management for Universal for
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: a couple of years until I just had to get out.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: It was not the right environment for me, and I
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: don't think they shared my same vision of what a
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: management company is and how to survive a management company.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: And so I left and then I kind of did
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: some other management company stuff with some other people, but
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: I was getting bored and I happened to be out
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: on tour with Fleetwood Mac and Hartwick, who was the
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: chairman of BMG at the time, came out on the
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: tour to say hi to me and check it out,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: and he's witnessed what we did as managers really for
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: the first time, real managers, you know. I think we
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: playing Boston and he asked, well, how much did the
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: band pocket, you know? And I told him the number
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: and he said, well, how much did you get? I said,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: I told him the number, and he said, I want
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: to be in your business, no risk, just upside, okay.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: So I said, all right, well, I don't know if
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I want to sell my company. I'm not sure even
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: if I want to grow it. At that point, you know,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: I was happy managing Fleetwood Mac's Easy Top and other bands,
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: and you know, I was getting older, and I was like, well,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: maybe just fade out with those bands and that's enough.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: And so he kept on calling me no, no, no, no, no,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: you don't need to sell the company. I'm going to
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: invest in your company, okay, and we'll just investor, you know,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: just providing capital to build a new company and do
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: somewhat of a roll up. Eventually I said yes, So
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: we did that twenty nineteen in November October, and you know,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: we shook hands. He invested in it, and three months
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: later COVID hit. Okay, so business shut down. But my
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: whole thing was, you know, in the depression, the Kennedys
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: really succeeded. You know, it was like those are the times.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: So there were a lot of managers out there that
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: needed support because they were making no money and they
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: had great bands, but there was no one working. So
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I went to them and said, hey, why aren't you
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: come in and I'll guarantee you money. And so I
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: built this and then you know, we thought COVID would
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: last six months, a year or whatever, and it just
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: kept on going. So I went to Hartwick and I said,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I am not going to furlough anybody, I'm not dropping anything,
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: and I'm going to grow even more. So I need
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: more money. And he said, hell yeah, great idea let's
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: do it. And so he did that and we kept
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: going and going, and then we broke through COVID and
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: we had debt because we took money, and we're finally
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: at that point where you know, we're a cash positive
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: company and uh successful. And it took two years to
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: dig out of COVID, but now it's working and we
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: have great bands and great managers, and you know, the
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: whole thing in the beginning was, you know, the only
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: reason I really am willing to the only way I'm
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: willing to do this heartwik, is that I want to
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: make this company like no Oether, a big management company,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: and we don't need to name them. They are what
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: they are and they're great, you know. But I didn't
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: want that. I wanted to go back to my roots
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: as a music fan when I was young and build
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: a company. And this is a I use this expression
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: all the time and with people, but I really had
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: this fantasy of doing making a company where music was
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: why we were there, not the paycheck, okay, and make
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: it like this thing in the early early seventies or
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: late nineties of Rolling Stone magazine where they're sitting in
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: one room and they all care about one thing, and
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: they share ideas. You know, maybe that's not what Rolling
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: Stone was, but that was my vision of Rolling Stone,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: you know. And so I said the online to it is,
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: if I do it that way, we're there for the
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: right reason. It's not about the check. It's about the
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: artist and finding great artists and doing the decisions or
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: making the decisions that are right for the artists, not
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: right for the management company. Where at Shelter excuse me, Sanctuary,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: it was a totally different thing. You know, they were
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: making deals with managers for what act they had at
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: the time. I did deals with managers who I believed
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: in and eventually they will succeed or they'll continue succeeding,
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: and that's working. So it's a totally different environment. And
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: our you know, we are a fraternity of managers, support staff,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: et cetera, you know, shared services whatever, that really care
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: about each other, trade ideas, aren't competitive on who we
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: sign realizing one person's been the other, don't take it.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Don't worries about the company, not the individual. And people
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: bought into it, you know, And I'm like, okay, so
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: that's kind of the philosophy of the company, if that
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: makes sense.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, Okay, BMG. What's their ownership position, what's their deal?
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Well, the deal's changed since Heartwork left, okay, and that's
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: all in this that's something I really don't want to
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: talk about.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Well, let me put it this way. Are you the
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: owner along with BMG or is every manager owner? What
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: is the ownership structure?
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: I'm the owner. I was well heart Will Heartwik was there.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I was sole owner of the company. Okay, So he
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: was lending you the money, lending me the money on
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: a return of profits, right, non callable, you know. So,
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: and then Thomas Coolsfeldt came in and he had a
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: different direction, you know than Hartwork did. So things got
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: different and we're talking now, and you know they for them,
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: for them relieving me of some of the debt. They
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: have an ownership, but I'm a majority owner. I don't
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: answer to anyone. It's my company. BMG has no say
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: and never have of what we do. Okay, who I sign,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: who I bring in as an employer or a manager?
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: So it's always been me running it with no one
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: they answered to. Now that that might be why they
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: have a problem with it now, because different chairman, you know.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: So, Okay, what is the deal with the managers traditionally,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: like with most of these, I give you a check
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: you aren't it out, and then it's fifty to fifty
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: of it. Is that your standard dealers.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: That's just that's those aren't accurate, exactly accurate numbers. It
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: all depends on the manager.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, every manager might get a separate deal, a different deal.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: I make it deals directly with the manager. There's not
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: there's not a blueprint of what the deal is because
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: some people need lesser, some people need more, and some
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: people earn more and deserve more or whatever it is.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: So it's all it's all based on the individual, the
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: individual's needs and they're projections when doing the deal, so
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: they're you know, different than a lot of management companies.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: I don't charge the managers for office space shared services.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: That's something I from my side to provide a better
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: service for the manager in return, and that then extends
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: the artist getting better service, whether it's a radio staff
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: or asset staff or social media whatever it is.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's get down to the nitty gritty. You make
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: a deal with the manager, and it's basically a percentage
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: of net, and NET just has to do with the band.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: And the manager not with shurance services.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Right, so I make a deal. Let's I'll do a hypothetically, right, Okay,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: ignore the numbers. Okay, but mister manager, I want you
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: to come aboard.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Are you in?
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm in, all right? What do you want to
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: get as a advance draw whatever it is? What do
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: you need? And then what kind of staff do you need? Well,
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: I need an assistant and myself and I need to
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: make such such dollars and assistant such such, and you
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: have to pay for my insurance, which I'm happy to
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: and then they recoup that amount. And then once they
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: recoup it, it's a straight split. And the split is
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: depending on the person and how bad I want them,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: how bad they want in, you know, or what's fair
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: to them, what's fair to me?
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: So okay, what is in the pot? Then at the
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: end of the day, that is split at whatever percentage
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: it might be.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Well, it depends, you know, it depends on the cost
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: of the individual manager. So when you say pot, what
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: do you mean by pott?
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: I mean so the shared services are not in the pot?
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: What?
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Okay?
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: No?
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: So what is in the pot?
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: Not think? But they're hard costs nothing but their salary,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: their teeny their insurance, and their employee that the assistant.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: That's it. There's no add on costs, so all they
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: have to do is keep recoup those three things. Basically,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: they said, I pay for the shared services. It doesn't
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: It doesn't charge back to the individual managers.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: What am I going to get in shared services?
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: You're going to get radio, You're going to get asset developers,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: you're going to get social media people, You're going to
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: get streaming people, you know those that type of thing.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, tell me how this is different from red Light.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: Well, I've never worked for red Light, but I've heard,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: but it is my understanding. Anyone can correct me if
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: I'm wrong, because I could be that they make the
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: same deal I just said, but they add on costs,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: whether it's office space, shared service contribution, all those things.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: So I didn't want to do that. And maybe it's
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: foolish for me not doing that, okay, But it was
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: more the philosophy of the company, okay, And maybe that
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: lessens my profit at the end of the day, but
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: I'm okay with that because I'm in this still after
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: all these years, to have fun, enjoy the people around,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: care of people, no different than how you take care
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: of an artist. You take care of a manager. You
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: develop them, you help them, you know. That was my thing.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: I wanted to cultivate managers. And then there was a
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: point two years ago that I said to a couple
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: guys at the company. I said, the problem, the problem
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: here is we're not developing young managers. We're developing young acts,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: but no young managers. Who's going to take over one?
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: We're going not necessarily at the company, but in the industry. Okay.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: So I started this incubator team of kids and gave
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: them a draw and over the two years, they're all succeeding.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: They recouped, they make money, and they're great. But I
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: had to teach them. So I spend more time working
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: with these people, opening doors for these people, you know,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: guiding them when needing needed guiding, and that's working. And
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: that's kind of what I do for the established managers too.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I help them with things maybe they're not familiar with,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: whether it's a television show which I've produced shows, you know, whatever,
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: those type of things, and or branding opportunities. You know,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: I've had restaurants, I've had wines with my artists, I've
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: had clothing companies whatever, Okay, So I have relationships. So
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: I help even the established managers to open different relationships
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: to provide a better service for their clients. So I
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: manage the managers, you know.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, in terms of your shared service staff. How many
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: people is that? What's the head count?
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: It's not that big. It's five or six people.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go to your farm team, so to speak. Yeah,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: how many developing managers are you working with?
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Just three? But I only have a total of twelve managers,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: so you know that's thirty percent.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's let's stay with it. If you have
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: those three, is it the same three or are you
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: rolling them over?
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: It's the same three right now. But I add to it.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I will add to it as these as these guys
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: go up. Then I bring another level in and they
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: just you know that it hasn't happened yet, no, because
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: it's been two years and it just got to the
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: point that my lit Mitz test, you know, the proof
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: of concept is proving that it was a good concept,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: you know, So now it's time to start looking.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, where did you find these three?
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Well, one is my son who was working who was young,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: who's twenty seven, but when he started twenty five, but
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: he had been working for Live Nation up in Chicago,
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: h running like the Aragon ball okay at a young age,
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: great kid, you know, like me, a college dropout okay,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: but had a thirst. And the other one was my
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: nephew who who was Mick Fleetwood's assistant for like three
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: years during a big tour during the whole period, so
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: he learned that kind of you know, relationship. And my son,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Jackson grew up with me managing Fleetwood Mac and on
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: the plane with us, you know, his whole life as
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: a kid, so he knows how artists think at an
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: early age. So now it was really teaching these two
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: cats who knew how to deal with artists, talk to artists,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: respect the artists, teach them the business part of it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: And so that was what the two years was basically.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: But then they went out and signed all these bands
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: and some I helped them with some I didn't, and
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: whether they were established bands or identifying talent very young
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: and getting him up to There's a kid that they
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: managed called Hunter Mets who was just signed by Interscope
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: and Sony ATV Publishing and is touring and has an
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: immense amount of monthly listeners and it's just blowing up.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: And they showed him, they introduced me to him in
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: a room where the guy had three people in the audience,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: and so they introduced them to writers, to all this
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: collaborators into a world and now it's blowing up. All right,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: So there's a z the learning curve. Okay, getting it.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Then they have some bands from the the late early
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: two thousands, you know, like a Hinder or a or
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: a bands like that in fuel and those say they
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: bread and butter bands because those bands still tour. Okay,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: So build your business kind of like I did, and
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: you don't need to do it this way, but this
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: is the way I did it was I got established
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: bands right away, and then you start working on the
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: development because you need to be able to afford to
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: do the development and you also want to live and
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: pay your bills. So get those bands and then in
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: that period develop bands at the same time.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: So, okay, who's the third person.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Third person I'm not going to say right now, but
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: it's there.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: And wait, wait, wait, just I don't need to know
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: exactly who this person is, but there's someone who started
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: two years ago.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: Who's also are he caman?
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: And he is doing essentially with the other two.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: He is working with that team.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, let's go back a step. The five people
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: insured services? What exactly do those five do?
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: A lot of them do crossover stuff, But basically what
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: you're trying to do is cover radio assets because you know,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: in today's world, you've got to deliver so many assets,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: visual assets, you know, online, YouTube, whatever, TikTok So, there's
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: a person who does assets radio. There's a streaming specialist
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: okay that works with the streaming companies. There's a touring
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: component person you know who helps And now that I'm
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: talking so slow, I forgot the other one, but I
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: come up with it.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I'll come back to you. Okay. Q Prime
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: has a dedicated radio team. Is that something? If I
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: go with you, I'm going to get the equivalent service.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Let me go back the other way before we get
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: back to radio and streaming. Ay, you say you have
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: twelve managers. Now, how does it ultimately happen? Do you
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: hear about somebody is somebody shopping? How does it go?
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: You know, in the beginning it's different than now Okay,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: we'll tell me both.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: So in the beginning, it was I would identify lone
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: wolf managers people that worked on their own okay, not
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: part of an infrastructure business. And in today's music business
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: you need so much help because it's management is so
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: much more time intense, and your job description is so
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: much different than what it was when I started. So
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: I can help you because I have an infrastructure and
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: you can use my services too. We'd like you to
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: come in, you know, then you sit down and talk
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: and you do the deal. Now more people are coming
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: to us, you know, looking for a home or leaving
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: a major company, some that you have referenced to get
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: a different situation.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Okay, to what degree is there someone who's saying, hey,
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to work independently anymore, and
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: it's making the rounds and talking to everybody, and you're
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: part of that picture. Yeah that happens. Oh yeah, yeah,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: so you're pitching me. Okay, I'm talking to the other
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: big companies. What is your cell? What is it that
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: you say?
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: The sell is totally the environment of our workplace, the
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: services we provide, and me as a person.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, someone like Irving always takes fifteen, doesn't have a contract.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Other people take twenty. They get it all on paper.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Does everybody have the same deal with the acts in
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: your company now? No, Do you have a philosophy about that?
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: What percentages and whether we have paper?
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: I think yeah, paper is not always easy to get,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: you know, And so it really depends on the thirst
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: for the manager or the artist, okay, because every manager
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: we have or every artist we have is a representation
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: of what we are. Okay. So sometimes no different than
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: buying cars or in cars are more expensive. I don't know,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: you know, but it's it's I don't like working with
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: this or nothing. It's all about, hey, dude, I dig you,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: let's do it. We'll figure it out. We'll figure out.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I dig you, let's do it.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: So it's that kind of related. It's a hippie in mentality,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: you know. It's like it's it's I do and it
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: could be the wrong way to go, okay, but right
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: now it seems to be working. But it makes me happy.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: And if I'm not happy, I don't want to do
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: this anymore other than you know, fleevand Macro, dis ease here,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: Crowdhouse or whatever.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Do you have enough money
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: so you don't have to do this if you didn't
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: want to?
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, My people in my personal world, business world, personal
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: business world, wonder why I do this? You know, why
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: are you doing this? You don't need to do this.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: He is all the money you have from representing artists everything. Okay,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I started, I started. I started my company in a
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: one bedroom apartment with my wife and a new child,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: and from there it just kept on going. Just to
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: be clear, what year are we talking about.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I started in the mail room at Gallan Morey in.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Oh wait, wait, well let's let's hold that for a second, because.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: When I was in the one room. Okay, ninety two,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: ninety three.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to some of the things you said.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: You talked about your young team signing someone who had
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: a deal with Inner.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Scope, yet who didn't have a deal, who was inempenent.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: We were putting music independentty but now has a deal
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: with Okay.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: In the old days, the record company was an integral part. Okay,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: would you sign an act? I realized everything is different
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: because you have different managers, et cetera. But talking about
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: general philosophy, how important is the label partner at this point,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: and is it necessary.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I don't think the I don't think the label is
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: important to you need real muscle or real funding. Okay,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: So as far as the development, I think we're more
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: equipped to develop than anyone. We know that the artist
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: is not one dimensional records only. It's a truly a
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: management of three to sixty, not like the three sixty
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: the labels talk about. My goal when I sign an
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: artist is not putting out a single and having success.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Mine is having ten years what's in twenty years? You know,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: and building a career. And really that's where the rewards
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: come in. It's not off a single. You know, it
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: might be too a label because they monetize and do
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: things differently.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, not every act is a major label interested in right,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: if you found an act that does not fit into
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: one of their slots, would you still work with the
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: actors say there's no deep pocket, I'm not interested.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: No, we would work because there's ways to put out
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: music obviously, as you know in today's world that can
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: get attention without without going through traditional distribution or or
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: traditional record companies. You know, it's it's it's different. And
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: then I think if we really believe in that artist,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: the labels will come and at that time we'll decide
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: if that's the right direction or not. I will sign
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: an act or I will encourage my managers to sign
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: an act based solely, not on algorithms or streams or monthlies,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: you know, on your belief or my belief in that
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: artist as a human being, as an artist, you know,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: and and that they share a vision, you know. And
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: so that's how we.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: So theoretically it could be a Klesmer artist.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And theoretically yes.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Right, Okay, let's go back to breaking down some of
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: these things. You have. Radio, How important is radio today?
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: One, it's very important to the artist, Okay. Whether it's
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: important in the big picture, not as much as it
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: used to be, obviously, but the artists still sees in
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: their mind radio and important thing. So I have we
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: have a band, okay that's on the Active Rock charts,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: and it's had three number one singles on the Active
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: Rock chart on one record, and we're about to have
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: the fourth single. No one has fourth single, the fourth
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: single number one that is solely no, I won't say so.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: That's that's from the efforts of Tyson, who's had my
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: radio apartment. Okay, he works it. He's on the road
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: constantly for and he does all our bands. You look
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: at artists like Scott Stapp and yeah, Creed is on
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: fire right now. And we bot when Scott came back
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: to me because I worked with him earlier on and
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: he said, I really haven't had six sess since being
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: with you. Dude, will you manage me again? I said, no,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: I can't manage you, but this guy my company can.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: But now he's got the highest ranking single he's ever
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: had in his career, you know, because of what we're
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: doing and how we're doing it. But okay, go back
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: to the band with the four number one singles or
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: three with potentially the fourth, Okay, is that changing their streams?
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Their download is their record not physical record sales? Not
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: that much?
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Is it helping their touring a little bit more okay
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: than the other things. So it's really about and it's
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: it's all John of specific how you have to market
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: and break a band, Okay in the active rock world,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: which is still somewhat touring driven. Okay, And it's not
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: a When.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: You say touring driven, you mean that's where the revenue
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: is or across pollination with the radio.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where the revenue is really, you know, and
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: that's how the band survives, and so you know, in
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: other formats it's totally different. But talking about this one example,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: they're touring goods bigger and bigger. They open up for
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: bigger acts, or they're headlining bigger venues, you know. And
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: so that's the goal because once you get a loyal
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: fan base that buys hard tickets, your career can go
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: on and on as long as you don't screw your
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: audience or do stuff they don't understand.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: So just because you mentioned it, what might an act
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: do that the audience doesn't understand.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you there's a there's a lot of things.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: But if you if you go to a show and
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: you know five of their songs and you love those songs,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: and you go to it, but they drop a new
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: song that's a disco song, their fans react and say
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: that I'm not into this. You lost me. You're not
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: who I thought you were. And this is a terrible, terrible,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: crass example. But the reason McDonald's is so successful is
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: you know what you're getting when you go to McDonald's.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: There are no surprises. You don't want to surprise your
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: You want to do better and better music and keep
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: putting out music because that's you know, legacy evolving. All
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: that's fine, but the genre switch is a very difficult thing. Okay,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: So stay true to who you are and who your
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: audience is or you jeopardize losing your audience. Now, if
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: it's so important for you to go into the disco
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: world in this scenario, I don't know why I see disco,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: but what the hell? And you know there's that risk,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: but you still decide to do it. Well, that's your choice,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: then okay, and we'll stick by and let's keep on
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: trying to make it work, you know. But usually those
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: relationships will go sou because then they're not satisfied because
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: they didn't break in that genre, the new genre, you know,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: And so it can happen. I haven't really experienced that
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: with any of my personal bands that I manage, but
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: you see it when when you have a band and
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: there's one band member who's bored with what they're doing,
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: so they're going to go out and do a solo project,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: and that solo project is so far removed from what
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: the band's image was and music was that their fans
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: show up from the band and go to the solo
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: show and it's totally different things. They don't come back,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: So now you've got to build a whole new fan base,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: usually at a later age that's almost impossible.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Just to be very clear, you're saying in this typothetical,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: I have a band five members were active rock type people. Right,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: I make a singer song right around, let's not go
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: totally up to Okay, you know see it's you know,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: hip hop pop whatever something you know you can sort
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: of see. While I'm a musician, I make a quieter record,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: and I make the record and I go on the road.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: There are examples Todd run Green is run into this
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: where he goes on the road. Even though he tells
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: people I'm not doing the hits, I'm doing X, they
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: still come expecting the hits. But with this scenario, I
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: do my singer songwriter record. People know who I am.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: You are saying the negative experience that we're proposing is
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: going to impact the band's business.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Ah, maybe not if there's separation, but it will pack
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: the potential success. But there are examples where my theory
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: is wrong or what I'm saying is wrong. You look
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: at Stained and Aaron or you and he goes in
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: the kind of country space. He did a great job.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: And not that I'm a Stained fan or anything, but
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: watching the business of it, he did it, So you know,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: so that is you know, that is one of those cases,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: and there are other cases.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Well, let me just be very general, Okay. The hardest
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: thing today is to get traction at all and to
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: get noticed. And it's not driven as you're you're putting
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: radio down towards the bottom of the pyramid, and it's
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: not driven by the traditional methods. So once you gain traction,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: to what degree are you saying advising the artists? You've
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: got to stay in the same path. Dude.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: First of all, I'm not putting radio way down there,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: and I don't want anyone out there to think I shut.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: It out right, Okay. I got somebody working there, so
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: it's important.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: And we have bands that work, can we let and
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: record radio stations have been very good to us, so
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: with all due respect, but there are other ways to
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: do it. Okay. So what was your question again, because
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: I focused on that one line.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, let me say, is a lot of words
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: for a general, let me enter it a different way.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: There are some managers who are completely transactional. I realize
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: you have twelve managers and none are going to be
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: the same. Some say to the act, you deliver the
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: record and I'll take care of the rest. Others want
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: to sit there and discuss with the act where the
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: record is going, what they're doing. What kind of manager
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: are you me?
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Personally? I discussed with the artists. I'm very the bands
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: that I personally manage, right I am very close to Okay,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: extremely close. I'm a well, since you're the manager, let's
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: just name those bands. Yeah. With zz Top, I'm extremely
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: close to the band. To Bailly, he's doing a solo
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: record right now. He sends me a song. Every time
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: he's done, we talk about it. I'd say, well, what
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: about this? What about that? And you know, stay on
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: course once again, stay on course, you know. So that's
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: you know, one example, Mick Fleetwood, who I've been around
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: for thirty five years, managing Fleetwood, Mac, managing Mac, et cetera.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: He is doing this crazy record and this is kind
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: of out of what we're talking about, but since you
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: bring it up, but he's doing this record and what
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: happened when we ended the tour in twenty nineteen, the
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: last Fleetwood Mac tour. He's bored. He goes back to
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: his house in Maui and he's doodling on the guitar.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Eventually but ukulele to start and he's writing these songs
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: and they're really rough, you know, really rough. But he's
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: sending like five hundred a day to me in the
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: middle of the night. Okay, you know, hard to follow. Okay,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: hard to follow, especially for me. But he has this
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: guy he communicates with, which this guy named Carl Fok
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: who's the Swedish producer that's part of the Max Martin
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: world all that kind of stuff. And he starts listening
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: to these tidbits and he's like, these are fucking amazing.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: These are amazing. We need to get together and let's
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: write songs. So Mick and Carl write ten songs and
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: record demos of him in mixed studio and Maui. Keep
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: in mind that Mick had been in Fleetwood Mac for
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: sixty years whatever it is. No one ever has asked
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: him to write a song, right, No one asked him
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: if he could sing. He's singing on this too. I
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: mean we have other singers. Nobody's singing. No one ever asked,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: including his manager Carl. No one said Mick write a song,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: So shame on me, shame on everyone. These songs are
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: so amazing, and we have big name artists doing one
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: doing a song each on the record with Mick doing
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: some of the vocals, or one song mixes the whole vocals,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: He wrote the whole music. So aa level artists, okay,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: are all doing this. So I'm very involved in finding
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: those other ones. I'm involved in the songs, which ones
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: we should do. So going back to that original question,
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: you know, it's like it's that way or you know.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Then there's Neil Finn, who is, first of all, a
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: wonderful person, Okay, like a really really wonderful person who
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: I really like and I got to know when we
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: asked him to join Fleetwood Mac when Lindsay left, and
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: we built a great relationship during that tour, you know,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: and we talked about me working with him and I
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: agreed because he was He's so talented. I mean, this
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: guy is incredible. So that relationship has blossomed that we're close.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: I was staying with my family and his family and
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: his Greek compound on this island, you know, vacationing, and
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: he was at my wedding and sharing his wife is awesome.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: So we're family, you know. And I become so close
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: to my clients that no one, no artist needs another friend. Okay.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: But if you get along with them, you almost become
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: like a brother. Okay. You fight like a brother, you
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: love like a brother, You loyal like a brother, okay.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: And that's really how it works with me. And fortunately,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: my personality gets along with these people, you know. And
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: it might have to do with how I was brought
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: up or whatever it is, or how I moved around
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: the country my whole life because of what my dad did,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: you know, all this kind of stuff. So I can adapt,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: you know, and I adjust.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Okay. Tell me about saying something to the artist that's
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: negative or they don't want to hear.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Well, you usually don't just say it out right. You
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: got a plan, okay. So it's really like, you know,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: you're going back to music, okay, and an individual artist Okay.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Use that as the example. So Tommy Lee, okay, Molly
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: could CRUs not really happening at that time, and he
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: has issues with you know, the past thema, his actions,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: his behavior, and he's really tired of talking about. Okay,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: go write a book, and you be honest in that
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: book and tell him every answer to every one of
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: those questions, and you will not have to answer that
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: question again. He says, No, I'm not doing that. Now
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: you're doing it.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: You're doing it.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: I know the right writer who you'll understand. He'll be
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: tongue in cheek. It will be great, but you're being honest.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: And if they ask you again, say hey, read my
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: book and walk away. And so he didn't want to
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: do it. He did it New York Times bestseller, written
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: with Anthony Bozo, who's fantastic, who also did Slash his
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: book for me, and Mick Flee's book and a few
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: others maybe and my thing I was doing. And he uh.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: But then Tommy after that, you know, didn't want to
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: do the television show, which was you know, Tommy Lee
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: goes back to college. Yes, corny, but I wanted to
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: make him. I wanted to humanize him, okay, because he
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: wasn't human. He was known for smacking whatever and whomever
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: and all that shit. So so no, we're going to
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: do you know, an NBC television show, and Middle America
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: is going to not only see you as who you
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: are portrayed in the tabloids. So he's hating that idea.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: But we come up with the idea. You're going back
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: to college, you're going to live in a dorm, and
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: you're going to join the swim team. What do you say?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: You know? And he goes, well, if I don't want
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: to do that, well, how about this idea. You're going
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: to become a mayor of some small town in Kansas,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: some small town in Kansas, and you're gonna be dealing
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: with parking tickets Fourth of July celebration, whatever it is. No,
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: I'll do the other one. Okay, we're doing the other one.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: So that's to your question. You know, it's kind of
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: turn it around the other what's the alternative? Well, there's
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: not Or Tommy, I want to you know, I want
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: to make electric music. Okay, you know, and that is
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: not going to be easy, and you're fan base from
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: Molly Kruz will not come over to that. But that's
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: your choice. And he did it and he loves it,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: so he does it out of his own musical passion,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: and you don't want to stop that. Okay, So but
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: there's other things. You know, every artist I have is
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: that there's that time where there's that conversation you know,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: with all of them, you know, and a lot of
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: the ones I don't want to bring up because yeah,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: I'm loyal to my artists and clients and I don't
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: you know. But Tommy's okay, because he's a wonderful guy
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: and we talk about it. You know, he's great, and
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: I don't work with him anymore, but I still love him.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Okay. Let's go back to Mick Fleetwood's record. Yeah, in
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: the pre internet era, you get this record, the record
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: company would stir up all sorts of publicity. There'd be
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: a single that you would start probably on rock, reed
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: you try to cross over to pop or maybe late
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: ninety start on pop. There might even be a video.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Most of the acts of his generation don't even make
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: new music, and a lot of them that even the
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: biggest acts Elton John got a lot of publicity with
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Brandy Carlisle put out the record. If you check, the
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: stream streams are anemic.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, So what do you do with somebody like included?
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: First of all, you go into the project realizing those
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: issues and those problems and making it clear to the
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: artists that these are the issues. But we should still
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: make this because it's important for you and parton for
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: your legacy, important for you. Letting people know whether it
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: sells or not is not as important as how it's reviewed,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: how it's thought of, Okay, and look at it that way.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: Now cut to the realities of how you do work
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: it once you do put it out. Well, on this
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: particular record, it's self financed, okay, and when it's done,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: which is soon, we'll go out and get a traditional
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: record deal, okay. And then how we're going to work
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: that record okay, because radio is meaningless, although certain artists
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: that we have on it it could work big time.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: So it's really just to be clear.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Do you have pop artists.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: We have pop artists, we have country artists, we have
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: urban hip hop artists.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: So cornicle wall genre you cover.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a cornicop yes, say yes, a collage.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: But this record will live by single download streaming world only.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: It's not going to ever sell like a record, you know,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: because this pop artists their fans don't go along with
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: the country artists. Okay, So each individual record single song
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: is a different release and that's how you do it.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, yeah, you look at the
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Dolly parton record, Okay, didn't do anything. There was so
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: much hype on that, right, you know, nightfully, So she's
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: a great artist, you know, but it didn't do anything.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Compilation records don't do anything anymore, you know. Soundtrack records
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: bear a few do you know. But that's it And
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: this is no different than that. So it's a song
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: by song effort, and it's utilizing the social media of
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: those individual artists every time we put out a record.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Leit wait wait wait wait. So we talked second ago
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: about making these records this important part of the legacy. Okay,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: But the way you're talking now is you are looking
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: to get lucky. Lucky sort of makes it sound like
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: you're not making any effort. I'm trying to say, you
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: are trying to create sparks that might create a fire.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: You're still trying to do that.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: You don't give up, you know, you still try for
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: the success because is that truly will even enhance the
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: legacy and maybe create future projects like this for him,
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: for that artist. Okay, And so you want success because
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: also the amount of effort we put into this. You
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: want to see some return.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: We're doing a documentary around it with a great documentary team,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: and we don't know when that will come out because
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: I've got the Fleetwood Mac documentary with Apple with Frank
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Marshall directing, So we've got to hold back on that
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: or make it.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Let's just stop for a second of Fleetwood Mac. How
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: does the management work? Okay? Howard Kaufman is dead. Irving
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: represents Stevie. No, No, Irving doesn't represent Okay, how does
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: it work?
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: It's over the term that over the time I've been there,
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: it's changed, okay, based on death.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: So my mentor mentor was Howard Kaufman. Sure, okay, because
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: he could have tossed me at any time in the
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: early years of Fleetwood Mac. Carl you in the way bye,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: I'll tell Fleetwood we're getting ready to you or there's
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: no tour because I have Stevie right, Okay. He never
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: did that. He let me do my thing. He didn't
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: always believe in what I was doing, but it ended
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: up paying off what I was doing. So they looked
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: at it from different eyes, and he taught me a
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: lot but so back then it was just Howard to die. Okay.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Then Lindsay hires Irving as his solo manager. Okay, now
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Irving's the picture. But Howard passes away. So then Stevie
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: for her solo stuff stayed with Sheryl Lewis, who worked
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: for Howard, because there'd be a conflict with me because
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: I want Fleetwood Mac okay and so. And then when
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Lindsay Laughed left, well, Irving didn't have any artists in
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Fleewood Max, so he was no longer involved and it
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: was just me. Okay, but I've always been there half
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: and half one tour or a third and then the
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: whole type of thing, you know, So it's always changing.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: But a tenth of Fleewood Max is an amazing thing.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: So I'm happy, you know, I had I never had
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: an issue with that, and they never had an issue
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Irving Howard. They've protected me my career. You know, we
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: get along. I love Irving. He helped me get out
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: of Sanctuary with the Universal. He was the one who
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: did my deal to get out with Lucien. And you know,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: they're good people to me, and I'm loyal to them,
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: and they've helped me in my career, and it gets
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: it gets a bit difficult with fleetod Mac when there
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: are so many people involved. But the last tour it
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: was I was the Fleetwood Mac man. Cheryl Lewis was
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: involved because she's Stevie's manager, Okay, Mick and John on
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: the trademark the name, so that comes with me too, Okay.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: So it's a complex thing, but it's been an awesome thing,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: I mean just awesome.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: What did you learn from Howard Kauffman, Slow down, Carl Wisdom.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: He was a different kind of manager than me, though,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: you know, I just learned to be cool like him,
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: because if you knew Howard, you know he was a
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: guy who is never on the microphone or in a picture,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: you know, or doing press. And one thing I learned
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: from him was I was going to be the same way.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: This is really my first podcast ever and that there
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: was another interview the other day which was my first
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: interview ever after thirty five years in the business. Whatever
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: it is, you know, it's like I never wanted that,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: you know, and I think that I think that that's
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: how Howard was. He was always he came from a
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: financial background, accounting background, Okay, so he taught me a
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: lot about that which I didn't know that much about.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: But I learned from him, and I learned to pay
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: attention of those to those things. And the other thing.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: He was always like, don't overthink it, make a move,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: just do it, just do it. You know, any decisions
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: better than no decisions, kid, you know, and that kind
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: of philosophy, you know.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: And little since you're close to Irving, what do you
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: can learn from Irving? Really?
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: How he's really an amazing businessman, okay, you know, and
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: not coming from a business background. I learned a lot
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: about business. I learned a lot about having an opinion,
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: who you trust, who you don't trust, you know, staying
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: close to the people you trust, and never screw with him, never,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: you know, because if you screw with a guy.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Like that, you know.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: But I don't know, I don't know specifically, but I
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: know if if I if I call Irving right now,
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: he will pick up the and he'll call me right
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: back and he'll answer any question or Irving, I have
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: someone that needs to get into UCLA right away. All right,
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: I'm calling them now. I'll call you right back. Boom
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: they're in. You know, He's just that guy for me
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: and for many people. I'm sure I'm not exclusive to
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Irving's attention. There are a lot of people, I'm sure.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: But he's that guy. He's on it. He doesn't sleep,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: you know, and he does, but I mean bigularly, and
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: he's available to me. That must mean to everybody twenty
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: four to seven. He's the work ethic, you know, it's incredible, incredible,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: and I don't think anyone can reproduce what his work
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: ethic is.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: Let's go back to some of the core issues of
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: the services you provide. Tell me about streaming. Anybody can
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: get their song on the service. What is your philosophy
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: with playlisting, marketing other things with the major services?
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that's a question which would
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: have a different answer every month you ask that question.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: I'm asking right now.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, playlists aren't as important as they used to be. Okay,
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: just to be clear, because because people aren't listening to
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: it like they used to. Okay, and you know, every
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: artist wants a certain playlist or a couple of specific playlists,
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: but then you get them and it really doesn't move
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: the needle that much. And although you still want to
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: have it because it's at tension or it's a stat
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: you know whatever. Okay, I think everything's driven by unfortunately
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: not YouTube. I mean, excuse me, TikTok Okay, TikTok. You know,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: but certain demographic don't understand TikTok, so it can't help
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: those people, but it can help the younger people. And
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: it's so of the moment, and it moves so fast everything,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: And you know, that's why I have shared services people
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: to educate me, because what the hell do I know.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: I'm just an old dude who's been managing for a while,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: who has amazing artists, you know. So that's why I
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: brought this in if I was going to grow to
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: have that, so someone could advise me or advise the
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: managers who are a lot smarter in that world than I,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: So give me your snapshot of TikTok.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Annoying.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: But I think it's annoying on a business level or
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: annoying on an experience.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: I think I'm both. Okay, I think and on the
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: experience level, that's only a personal opinion. On the business level,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: it makes it very tricky because what works on TikTok
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: isn't necessarily what works for me and my beliefs of art,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: you know, of art, okay, And so there's a conflict there.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Then you talk to a legacy artists say we'll go
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: on TikTok, Dude, what the fuck am I going to do?
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden they're like doing it,
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: and yet they're trying too hard and it's not coming
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: off naturally and it doesn't work, or he needs it
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: more scripted and drawn out, or she does and it
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: just doesn't work. You know. But kids doing you know,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: machine gun and Kelly type stuff or you know, whoever
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: and who are so persistent in it can really have
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: an impact, you know. But you can't get a a
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: bono and obviously I don't manage bono, but an artist
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: like that or Stevie or whatever to commit to doing
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: delivering three assets a day that lives on TikTok, they're
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: not going to do it, okay. So without that impact,
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: it's not going to really work. So it's it's got
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: to be dedicated and the artist has to be dedicated
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: towards to that for TikTok to make the movement, the
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: bar movement all so okay.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: You know, for years now, acts have had social media teams.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm posting on Facebook. You know, I'm putting
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: up stuff. Hey do you still do that? And to
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: what extent be when it comes to like TikTok, do
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: you say, if you're not doing it yourself, we're not
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: even gonna do it at all.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I say if you don't doing
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: it yourself, we're not doing it at all. I say,
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: if you're not going to partner with us to do
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: it and provide access and the energy to do it,
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: then there's no point in doing it. Okay. What was
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: the other part of the question.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that kind of answers it, and okay,
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: so let's assume you have an act. In the old days,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: there weren't many opportunities outside the music, and then in
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: the late sixties and seventies, the philosophy was we're not
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: going to do endorsements, not going to do sponsorships. They're
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: going to hurt us. Now there's some classic examples here.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, the Beatles set the trend, not because they
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: knew what they were doing, they just did it. But
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: then you had people conscious like Neil Young said I'm
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: not going to do it, and he maintains credibility. The
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: other three do not, even though certainly Steven Stills has
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: incredible talent. David Crosby now dead. Okay, so what is
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: your philosophy with an act saying sponsorship, endorsements, merge that
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, first of all, TV changed the world, okay,
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: of how artists look at that, and then the Internet
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: changed the world how you look at it? And I
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: think it's hard. If the brand you're associate the brand
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: the artist is associating with makes sense for that artist,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: it's great. Okay, it's great. And or the business they're
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: getting in makes sense for that artist, I think it's great.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: I think that if Fleetwood Mac did a Jack in
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: the Box commercial or whatever, it would kill It would
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: be bad, just bad, okay, But if they did, if
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: a McK fleewood did a Louis Vuitton like Sean Connery did, Okay.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: That won't hurt.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: I mean because he's a traveler or whatever.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: It's like, it's like that, and I think, you know,
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: the sponsorship of tours is pretty much going away, you know,
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: because they didn't do anything for those brands, but building
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: lifestyle or products that make sense for that that individual
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: band is good, I think. And what it does is
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: it protects the artists from living in a cyclical world
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: of dropping music touring, dropping music touring, you know whatever
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: it is, okay, and it builds a business for them
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: that continues. And if you have a brand like a Zeezier,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: Fleetwood Mac, those are worldwide recognized image in Nay, okay,
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: how do we do that? So Mick Fleetwood did Fleetwood's
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: on Front Street in Maui. It was extremely successful restaurant.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: People loved it. He would be there every night like
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: a matre d you know, he'd play when Steven Tyler
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: was don Maui or whatever. They get up and jam.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: And we had a restaurant that was doing probably top
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: two restaurants in all of Maui, you know, revenue wise,
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: and then the fire burned it down. Heina, but it
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: was a great asset to Mic. You know, it was
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: a perfect environment for him. So was a wine because
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: he was in the rest from business. He outside of wine, okay.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: You know with Tommy Lee, we did the television shows.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: We did a t shirt line, a G line, Jane
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: line that made sense for who he was. That's what
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: he wore. T shirt ripped off T shirts and you
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: know whatever. So it was okay, you know, if you're
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: talking about if you're talking about Adele doing a.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, wait wait, wait, let me stop you. I think
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: your concept is clear. A manager only gets paid when
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: the act makes a deal. When the act is making money,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: agent the same thing. So, certainly in the twenty first century,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: it looks like a lot of people have made deals
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: because the percentage partner is gonna get paid, especially in
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: a world you're dealing with a lot of legacy acts,
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: especially in the world where the acts come and go,
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: the business people remain and they say, I'm gonna take
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: this money off the table. Okay, I'm gonna do this.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: They never say the artist, no, not good for your
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: career whatever. What's your take.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: There, Well, I think that's selling your I think that's
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: selling your artists down the road if you take it
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: just because there's money involved.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: It's never that black and what.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: It is to me though, it is to me.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: But give me tell me something you told your artists
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: not to do. God an actual example.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: I can't think of one, really. I think that there's
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: been there's been examples. But oh, one of my older
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: artists a huge paycheck for cialis commercial. Nope, don't do it.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: No I should do it. No, don't do it. Wife,
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: Yes you should do it. I say, no, you're not
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: doing it.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: So the act wanted to do it, Yeah, but I didn't.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: Can you tell us how much money was involved?
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: No? It was seven figures. And then there're what about
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: z Eezy top cut your beard, Gillette, Well to a
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: commercial cutting your beards off and we'll give you a
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: million bucks. Okay, We're not doing that. Guys, it's foolish.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: They agreed with me, but I mean they come in
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: and I don't sell them on it. I'm like, hell no,
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: I don't need that money. That's the beauty of how
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: we set up this company because I didn't need the money, okay.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: And I'm not bragging about money, but I didn't need it, okay.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: So everything we do or I do, is really about
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: doing what's right, enjoying it, and what's good for the artist.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: You know, it's not about me.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, let's stay with some of the deals that
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: are offered these legacy artists. What is your viewpoint on
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: selling your rights, publishing, royalty interests.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: And yeah, we've sold I've been involved in a bunch
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: of sales, okay, and it all depends on the individual artist, okay.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: And I think if the artist is sixty five or older, okay,
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: it makes a lot of sense to do it from
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: a financial standpoint. But a lot of deals, you know,
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: when you make that deal, you have to have some
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: ability to veto what they might use your product and
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: what's your music. And I've been fortunate too, by way
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: of relationships to put those stipulations in an agreement. And
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: it took a while because we'd fight back and forth.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: But there's also stuff I put in an agreement that
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: if we overperform in any one year, they still get
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: a percentage passed through to them, even though you own
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent of it now okay, So there's safeguards
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: you put in there. But they're collecting the money up front, okay.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: Just to make the numbers easy. I'm over sixty five,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: I'm only selling and publishing selling it for a hundred minus.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: Just to make the numbers of you. You're saying you
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: have a clause in the contract such that I can
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: get paid again.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: The band can get paid. Yeah, yes, and not in
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: all the deals I've achieved it.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: When you've achieved that, how is that clause written? Because
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: if for no other reason, you know, you can have
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: a big year because you're featured in an end title
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: on a Netflix show. In In addition, there can be
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: steady increases because of new avenues of monetization with you know, Twitch, discord,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So how do you
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: actually construct something like that?
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: You just merely say you're buying this on an average
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: of the catalog that you're selling makes a millionaire? Okay,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: a millionaire anytime we go over a million a year
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: in revenue that you've collected, we get a piece of
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: that above a million.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, just to be clear, how big a piece might
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: it be depends on the artist. I mean, is it
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: five percent? Is it twenty five percent?
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: I gotta calculate it because I just got another check million.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: It's it's like, okay, now they're not buying these assets
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: and one thing that people buy them there other than merk,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: maybe all these people are very sophisticated financially. They're making
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: the money, so they're expecting to both get their money
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: and make more money. Otherwise they're not going to do
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: it right. Okay, so there's a issues of inflation. Be
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: give you an example which you don't represent, but I know, okay, Toto,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: they didn't sell, but they're just like this, all of
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: a sudden, Wheezer does Africa and it blows it up
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: with your contract. I'm going to get with pulling the number,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get thirty percent of the upside. Let's just
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: assume that stays at a high level.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: And it keeps going. But that's why none of not
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: many companies would have done that. It was a relationship
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: thing that they did with me. Okay, I don't have
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: that on online.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, but let's just say in your particular case, the
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: number that you get in excess, let's just make it easy.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: You see a million dollars, so you're making a million dollars.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: Now over a million, the act gets thirty percent or
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: ten depending on the Okay, we're just talking. I know.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: But what about my y Okay, you put it just
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: to be just to make the numbers easy. So you
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: went to middlebary digit, Yes I did.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: We can talk about that. But let me just finish
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: this point. The million dollar floor would not inflate. It
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: might last for thirty years.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's the risk. The thing was they early
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: on on these deals three years ago, whatever I ran
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: was okay, it was about market share too. Okay, it
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: wasn't about just business. It was market share and press
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: releases and saying then that would gather then. So it's
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: a lost lead or whatever you want to call it.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: But that could be the case. You know. The other
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: important part to the artist is some creative control or
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: veto right, which some of the agreements have that specifically
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: written in it, some don't. But then it's a relationship
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: because if you're just selling the publishing, well, I'm never
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: going to prove the master then, so you're not going
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: to get it anyways. Okay. So there's a lot of
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: ways to protect. There's a lot of ways to enhance,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: get gather more or save you know, save the name.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: And it's not in a political campaign. You know that
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: you don't believe in it. Okay, So there needs to
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: be this.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, when you've made these deals, how much have
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: you done the negotiation and how much has the attorney
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: done in the negotiation.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: Managers not allowed to negotiate.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, under California law and no, but it's a
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: manager for resident.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: I'm a Tennessee resident actually so.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, but it's got to do where the contract is. Really.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: But but the thing is is I'm I can say
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: I'm very hands on. I find the deal. I don't
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: negotiate it, but I set the parameters of the deal
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: and what we're looking for. And then the attorney gets
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: involved and comes back to me and say, Nope, not
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: doing it that way, doing it this way. They call me,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: they work me talk to the attorney, and I go
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: back to the attorney, you know, and he's doing the negotiations.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: But I'm very involved my attorneys. Uh, and we have
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: a lot of great attorneys, you know. But I go
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: get the deals. Okay, I get deals. I don't rely
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: on on whomever you whoever, big name attorney to find
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: me deals. I do them all myself, you know, because
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: that's and you can draft it and you can do specifics.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: But I like making deals and I like going out
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: and chewing it up with the guy. You know.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: It's like, okay, let's switch gears again. So your anchor
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: in Fleetwood Mac is Mick Fleetwood. How did you get
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: connected to myth Gleewood.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: A great story. You know, it's unbelievable. You know, when
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: I worked at Sandy Gallen this is right around right
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: before then, I was fortunate enough to work for a
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: guy named Barry Josephson. And Barry left Gallen Morey to
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: work for Joel Silver, the film producer. He was working
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: on an artist named Andrew Dice Clay. Okay, so all
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: of a sudden he leaves. I become close to Dice.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: Dice convinces me to leave Sandy and be his director
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: of development because he had a we were going to
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: do a film deal, television deal, director of touring. He
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: was selling out Madison Square Garden and run my business
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: like really a manager's job. So I took that job on.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: We had huge, huge success, and that was my first client,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: you know, And it was like an experience because it
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: was in all businesses. Somebody who in mixed business manager's
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: office knew me and was telling the story of my
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: success with Dice. And keep in mind were a lot
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: of people involved. Okay, so I'm not taking away, but
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: what I did and how I got in and I
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: was young, okay, road and so he goes, I want
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: to meet this cat, So I get this call from
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: a business manager says, hey, Fleetwood wants to meet you.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: Will you come in? Yeah, I'll be there tomorrow, no problems, problem,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: what you are we in? Let's see, I got to
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: go back to Clinton Clinton ninety four. I guess, yeah,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: ninety two, Okay, ninety two, Okay, thank you. So that
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: was ninety two, and Fleetwood and I sit in a
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: room with his then fiance to be ex wife at
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: some point, but a wonderful woman. Okay, she and our
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: friends still. But within an hour of leaving the meeting,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: I get a call and I go, Fleetwood's hiring you
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: come back or whatever. I go back. He goes, here,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: here's what we're doing. We got the band the Zoo
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: out okay, which we're selling pretty good records, that band
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: that was happening, And he says, but my dream is
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: getting Fleetwood Mac up and running again. How are we
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: going to do that? So I came up with this
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: plan and we ended up doing the dance, which was
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: the MTV special five million records Tour of the year,
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: you know. And so in my way working with Fleetwood,
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: we got everyone together. Okay, how I did it? I
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: don't really want to sing.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: I'm going to jump back before it jump forward. Now,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: let's say you're involved in selling somebody's rights. Seemingly all
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: your big acts you were not there for minute one,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: you know, zsy.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: Top, none of them Bokay, so I was forever last,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: but he fired me, right.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: So what it comes to an act that's had a
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: forty year career and you're selling the rights of the publishing.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: How do you decide what the commission is? Is it
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: your standard commission?
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: Now I give him a reduction because they're getting forty million,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: fifty whatever it is, you know, off of one person, okay,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: in a band or it was easy, it was the
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: whole thing, but the whole band. But I reduce it.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: But it's still a substantial percentage. And I think I've
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: been really fortunate with my clients that they were willing
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: to always take care of me. You know, if you
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: look at ZIZI. I've been with zz for seventeen years,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: how many managers you know, except for a few, you know,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: Tony demitriotis Petty, Dave Matthews, and but there's very few.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: And they're loyal and I'm loyal and they know that,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: you know. And and these were all done during COVID,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: and it made sense, and I'm happy they did it,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: and I and I did very well during COVID.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: So you pull the number out of your ass, how
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: do you get a number to sell it for? No?
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: Your percentage?
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: It's a conversation just between that person and I.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: Well, no one likes to give up money.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: They I don't know if that's true.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: I don't want to get into artists. One thing new,
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: I won't talk about artists. That's not necessarily true. No, No,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: here is the story with artists. This is the one
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: and only thing they can do. Their name is on
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: the marquee. You can always get another act. You're behind
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: the scenes. There's for desperations, got a negative quality. But
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: the nature of these acts at that core they know
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: that somehow, and they're not like regular people. They wouldn't
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: have become that successful without it. That doesn't mean they
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: can't be reasonable. But these are not your everyday.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: People, clearly not. But what's your question then? At what's
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: your point?
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I think you know. I don't think there's a
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: specific question there. But let's go back to think.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: I can only speak about my experience, okay, and my
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: experience is that all my clients have always been fair
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: to me, and they have never except I feel little
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: small things, ever questioned. And then and then I'll go
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: to them and say, hey, you know what to be fair?
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: So and so I'm not going to take fifteen percent
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: across on this. I'm not going to do that, Okay,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: but I will take I do think I deserved this much.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: So you won't toss out an initial number on a
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: huge p day.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or some people of some artists, based on a relationship,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: say what do you think is fair? And they might
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: say that I said, well maybe this, well maybe that
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: the okay, cool, let's do it.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: I no, have you ever had an experience with the
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: artist says well, this is what I think it was fair,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: and it's less than you think is fair.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, And I'm not bullshit. I'm serious. It
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: hasn't happened to me. I've been lucky. I take it.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: You know, you know, let's go back to Fleetwood Mac.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: I know on some level you said they didn't want
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: to get back to what do we know Fleetwood Mac.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: They performed to Clinton's inaugurations, singing don't stop whatever? What
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: was the impediment? John mcviee's seeming legals show. Well, we're
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: doing it, we're doing it. Okay, he's there with Mick Mix.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: More of the business guys managed the band for an
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: interim there. What was the hang up in getting them
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: back together?
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: I think it was just individual lives. I think Stevie
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: was doing her thing, Lindsay was doing his thing. And
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: at the time they got back together, Lindsay was in
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: the studio making a record, and at that he had
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: a manager at that time, and they called a manager
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: and I said, hey, why don't you get Mick and
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: Lindsay together. You know, Lindsay's had a lot of success
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: with Mick in the studio with him and Mix not
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: a producer, but he's a vibe you know, he's a
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: vibe guy, and he knows the sound and all that.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: So maybe you have him come down and let's talk,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: you know. And so that happened, and then all of
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: a sudden, well why don't we get sell and so down?
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: Why don't we get sell and so down. Then they're
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: all in a room, you know, recording on Lindsay's record.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: Then you're out there looking at opportunity. Okay, let's go
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: to a promoter and see what they pay for a
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: fleeting back tour. So I did that without the band
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: really being aware of it, but just to see so
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: I could be honest and educate the band. Why not,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: you know, number was insane. I wonder if MTV would
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: do a special if they got back together. I can
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: remember Howard, I think it was Howard. There's no way
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: that will happen. Okay, well let me just see, you know.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: And so it happened, and it made sense that they
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: did it and became and they did they all got
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: it and did it. We recorded a concert. We peppered
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: the audience with current artists too, to make it look
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: you know, make they were fans, but to make sure
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: people on television realized, you know that this is cross genre,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: this is cross demographic, okay, whatever it is. And we
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: did that and cover Rolling Stone popped up and just
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: kept on going, you know, it kept on okay.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: But generally speaking, the members of the band were saying,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: if the numbers line up were in it, you didn't
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: have to do any arm twisting.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: No, there was some politics, but not arm twisting. Christine
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: was in right away because wonderful person, you know, and
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: just she didn't want to ever be a She was
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: a person that didn't want to be a star. Okay,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: respect to that, okay. And she didn't mind sharing the stage.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: She wasn't about going doing another solo record, you know.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: So she was just sitting there in her castle and
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: Edinburgh or whatever the hell it is, you know. And
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: John's out on his boat crossing the Pacific, you know,
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: and Hi cool.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: Mick eager to keep his band because he started it
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: in the sixties. That's all he's ever known is sleeping back,
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: you know. It is it's more than a band, or
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: it's more than making money. To him, it's what I do,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: you know. So he's in. And then Lindsay and Stevie
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: have their solo projects and both very successful. So how
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: do you find the time to get into their schedule
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: based on their success? And it just worked out.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: Okay. You said that Mick was at your wedding. That
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: would imply that you've been married multiple times.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: Well, no, Mick was only at Mick was at my Yes,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: I've been married three times. One time was for two
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: months right before I got married, right before I start
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: in the mail room. Okay, that lasted two months because
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: I got in the mail room, met Dice left. Okay,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: we're still friends. Okay, we're still friends. Then my other
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: wife was the mother of two of my boys. We
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: got married in Vegas after a mix show and we
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: did it like at the Elvis Chapel or one of
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: those things. And it was Fleetwood who put the whole
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: thing together. And it was like Beck and Bramlet, Dave Mason,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: all these people were in the audience all, you know.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: And we got married and she was pregnant at the time,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: and they made me marry her and I was happy
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: to and I shouldn't say maybe, but they created it.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: And so he was at that one. He wasn't at
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: this last one, which was in twenty January twenty twenty
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: with Dana, who I share a four year old son.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: So I have I've had three boys. Neil was there.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: Neil Finn was at that one.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: The second marriage. How long did that last?
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: Twelve years?
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: And why did that end?
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: Because my career was blowing up and I wasn't the
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: best best husband. I was a good father, I thought,
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: but I think but I was gone the whole time.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: I had influences around me that made me a little crazier,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: you know, and my priorities might not have been in
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: the right place. And we still talk. You know, everything's
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: I you know.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, So the present wife Dana, When and how did
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: you meet her? It's a good one.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: It was fashion week in New York City. Zz Top
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: was playing the John Varvados show. There's a cat named Jordan,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: she who ran Geffen, you know. And I was in
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: his office one day with Pete Jorn okay, and Jordan
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: pulled out a picture of his wife and next to
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: the wife was this girl, stunning girl. Who the hell
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: is that? And she goes, oh, that's Dana Rossi and
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: I said, wow, I want to meet her. And so
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: they hooked it up because she hadn't been be in Philadelphia,
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: where her parents were live, and she took the train
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: up to New York to come to the party, got
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: her hotel room. Because we didn't know each other, but
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to meet her, you know. So she
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: came in for the night.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: She was a model. What was she doing?
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: She was not a model. She owned a boutique in
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: Santa Monica called Dame and she's stopped. Yeah, she's really American, Italian,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: American or whatever you call it, but really beautiful. And
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: it started there and she didn't like me in the beginning,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: and I had to work on it and it ended
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: up and then we ended up getting married. And now
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: we have Rome and our four year old son, and
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: we live in Sun Valley, Idaho, and still have our
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: home in La, office in La Nashville, home in Nashville,
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: office in Nashville. But my four year old goes to
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: preschool in Sun Valley at a school called Community, which
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: is amazing school. And that's where they are all the time.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: I'm there all the time unless I'm traveling on business.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: I end up in Ketchum.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: When I the end of from ninth grade to graduating
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: high school. I live in Seattle, Okay, and Ketchum harbors
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: a lot of Seattleites, especially back in the day less
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: now now because more draw there. When I dropped out
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: of college Eastern Washington State College, I was a skier
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: all my life, you know, I was. I went to
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: private school in East Coast where we ski all day.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: And where'd you go to private school?
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: I went to private school in New Jersey, actually a
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: school called Farbro that had uh it was like a
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: school without walls, and so they had this guy John
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: franz And who was part of the Swiss ski team,
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: who was a teacher. So he would bring me up
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: to Vermont and we would study till nine and then
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: I'd ski with him, and then we'd go back study
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: some more, and then we'd crash out and did that
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: for a month like every year type of thing. Okay.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: And I was really into skiing, and so in Seattle,
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: I was really I was a teacher in tenth grades
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: teaching skiing, and and so I dropped out of college
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: and I said, well, I'm going to work in Seattle
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: for a little bit, figure out what the hell I'm
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: going to do. But then I said, I'm going to Sunvalley,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: going to Ketcham. So a couple, me and my friends
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: go to Kitcham. I immediately get a job running Trail Creek,
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: which was Hemingway's ex fishing cabin. Okay, so I'm running that.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: I'm young, you know, and they let me work nights
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: so I can skiet during day.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: I was one of these setups, you know. So I
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: loved Ketcham.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: And what year are we in?
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: Eighty eighty one, I think? And I loved Ketcham, and
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: I left Ketcham to move to Vale, Colorado. But I
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: always knew at some point I was going.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: To wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, this is you know
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: you speak in my language. Why did you leave Sun
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: Valley for Vale?
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: Well, we were trying to think figure out a long
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: term plan for Carl, meaning my dad and I am home,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: you know, and my dad knew. My dad knew the
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: president of United air Lines. At that time, United Airlines
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: owned Weston Hotels and they were opening up brand new
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: Weston Hotel there. And why doesn't Carl become head of
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: food and beverage down in Vale Because he loves the
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: ski and he loves the mountains. They gave me that job.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: I moved down there after two and a half three
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: years and Sun I moved down there and did that
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: for two years. But once again, I worked at nights
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: pretty much, so I skied every day.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the beginning. How did you
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: end up in Sun Valley? Now?
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, like I said, I was drempt of owning a
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: house there, and then h COVID hit and really before
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: everyone started moving out of La I went up there
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: on a vacation with my wife. Okay, and it's a
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: good place to get away, open air, it'll be cool.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: So Rob my real estate I call him up. He
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: wasn't my agent. Then this is the guy I meet,
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: you know, to sell some to the house. I go,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: here's the deal. I only got two more days here.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: I'm going to look at every house, every house, and
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: I guarantee you I'm going to buy one. So show
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: me thirty houses in two days. He goes, Okay, dude, okay,
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: you showed me thirty houses. I bought one. We closed
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: a month later, and then Dana and I went up there.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: It was August. Then Dana I went up there, said well,
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: let's get out of la and go to the new
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: house and open it up. And then we just never
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: left because Dana fell in love with Sun Valley catch them.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: I always dreamt that that was going to be the plan.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: We all learned how to work remotely, all right, Well,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: when COVID's over, we'll figure out what we do. Well
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: COVID's over, I still couldn't work remotely. My clients live
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: around the world, not in La. Record companies are not
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: that important to me, or I have other people to
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: do it so it's easy. So I keep my house
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: in LA in Nashville, as I said earlier, and I
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: less two weeks ago in Nashville, freight days here in
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: LA for three weeks, and I go back to Sun Valley,
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: and then I'll come back four weeks later.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: Generally speaking, in a year. How much you in Sun Valley, LA, Tennessee,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: just on the road. How does it break down?
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: Well, if you factor in on the road too, you know,
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: outside of LA, and add that in the outside of LA,
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: in Nashville, in Sun Valley, figure doing it, probably sixty
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: seventy in Sun Valley?
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: Okay? To what degree you know, there are other people
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: in this business who live in Sun Valley. To what
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: degree are you integrated? Are you just in your own world?
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: Here's what it started, that I wanted to be in
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: my own world, okay, and then people start talking that
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: I'm there and they don't really know me, but they
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: want to meet me, you know, that type of thing.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: And then you know, for the first three years we
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: were secluded, okay, and then your sun starts going to preschool,
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: people start meeting you in restaurants, talking to you, and
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: then they start calling on you, you know, and they have
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: an idea you know or whatever, and so you get
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: involved in other things and all of a sudden Hebert
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: a Fred you know, and you're walking down the street
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: and you know people and it's kind of a personality
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: I have too that I'm not. I'm not a dark
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: corner guy, you know, kind of kind of bright you know.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: And so like we did that, we did the ear
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: Skiar the World Cup final. We're in sun Valley this year,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: sunvill Catch them. These two people, the guy owns the Whiskey,
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: which is one restaurant brand, and Jenny Dupree wanted to
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: do a festival during that period. So they come to me,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: they say, will you help us? We want talent. You know,
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: we don't know what we're doing in that side that respect,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: they knew how to plant it. Okay, all right, fine,
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: I'll help. And I put together all the entertainment and
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: the show and it was a big success to the show.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't know financially, but the event was successful,
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: you know, first time festival successful. So then I met
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: all these people around there and they saw what I
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: was helping there, well, will you help us with this?
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: So it kind of snowballs and you know, people, but
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: the people are awesome there, you know, and it's like
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: it's really cool, you know, and it's really really unique
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: gathering of people. Funny story off subject. Okay, when I
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: first moved to La from Utah because I failed to Utah.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: Then La, you moved to go skiing in Utah? Yeah? Yeah,
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: what'd you do in Utah? For how long?
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: I've worked in Salt Lake at the Hotel Utah, which
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: was which is a morning and they had a rooftop
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: restaurant called the Rooftop and there I met Robert Redford
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: eating or do O eating or whatever, you know, because
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: it was the only real spiffy place. But it didn't
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: open till like six. So I'd got a park city skiing,
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: you know, or wherever sundays Alta, you know. And so
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: but I wasn't there that long. I was only there
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: for a season.
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: Season.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: So I go to LA and I need a job.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: I moved to La not knowing anyone, not one person,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: not one person on my own, and I'm staying at
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: a Western hotel because I had free room nights. And
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: I go in I apply for a job at the
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: Ruth Chris Ruth's Chris Steakhouse in Beverly Hills, Okay, and
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: the cat who owned it was a dude named Paul
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: Fleming who was from Arizona via New Orleans, Lafayette. And
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: they hired me. And that's where I met my first wife,
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: by the way, she ran the place. Okay, So so
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: I worked there, get in the music business. Blah blah blah.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: Cut to Sun Valley, Okay, catch them. I'm talking to
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: Brandon who owns the whiskey, and he goes, dude, do
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: you know a dude named Paul Fleming? Yeah, well I
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: was probably you up to him and he said you
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: used to work for him, and go, yeah, I used
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: to work, but well he lives up here too. Now
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: he goes, that dude thought you'd be dead by night,
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: but you were the best dress host they ever had
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: at a restaurant, okay, because I was always trying to
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: pimp and get in the world, you know, of entertainment
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: of the world, you know. And so now he and
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: I are in a restaurant, are going to be in
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: a restaurant together in some value, one of the classic
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: restaurants of all of Ketchum. And I don't know if
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: you've been to Ketchum, but oh yeah, Okay, where did
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: Hemingway eat his last meal?
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: A restaurant called Michelle's. He ate every night in Michelle's.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: That kind of a frame thing. Okay, ate his meal,
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: went home, shot solf of the head. So we're dealing
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 2: with that, you know. So he's in business, but he's
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: just blown away, you know. He goes, are you still
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: did you ever? Mary Carey? Yeah? I did for two
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: months and he he was laughing, and it's like, it's
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: so amazing how you meet people you know or other
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: people you know or are you know. It's such an
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: eclectic group of people. And it's like any vacation place,
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: whether it's the Outer Banks or get Cut or whatever. Okay,
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: there's the haves and have nots, Okay, which makes it
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: difficult for the have nots because the prices go up,
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: you know. But they're cool too, because all these servers
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: I love, you know, and because I understand I can't.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: I was a hustler, I get it, you know. But
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: then there's really successful people, you know, and which you
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: can learn from, you know. And so I have an
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: office in downtown ketch them. That's the shelter of Rocky
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: Mountain Office, and so it's it's fun.
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, what'd your parents do for a living?
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: I'm a I think we call it a corporate brat.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: My dad, at the age of eighteen, was installing phone
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: lines in southern Illinois, no, no, outside of Chicago as
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: a job. He came from German immigrant family, okay. And
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: he won some award as a student in high school.
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: Then he met the president, and then he was working
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: for AT and T or Illinois Bell or whatever it
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: was called there, and they said, this kid's great. So
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: he went from installing phones to being executive vice president
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: AT and T, and in doing so, we lived Seattle,
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: we lived in New Jersey.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: Wait wait wait, executive vice president of AT and T
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: the national corporation.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, before the divestiture. Before you know, this is not
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: a Celtone.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: There were a lot of steffs between installing fold lines
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: becoming executive view you know.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: But went he worked for Illinois Bell, Pacific, Northwest Bell,
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: going up the chain.
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: So what's his skill, because it's very hard to do,
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: ye know.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: His skill was he was very intelligent, but he was
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: a people person, and they kept on putting him to
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: more school at and t Okay. So he went to
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: University of Illinois, he went to special school at Wharton,
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: he went to Dartmouth for another part of his learning,
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: and they just kept on grooming this guy. And in
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: those days it was like that. It wasn't jumping companies.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: And so he only worked for one company and retired
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: at sixty five his whole life. And so loyalty, you know,
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: and that. And plus mom was just mom, and we
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: had five kids, and she was able to move us
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: every two years and she took care of us and
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: it was wonderful. So I had a great background.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: So where are you in the hierarchy?
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: I'm in the middle, and what are the other ones
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: up to? Everyone's healthy and successful, you know. It's like
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: my brother James, the oldest. He is an attorney Seattle
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: real estate, Transactional real Estate. My brother Todd lives down
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: here in Los Angeles and does events, produces events for
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: like Nissan and stuff like that. But that's what he likes.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: It's his independent, doesn't have to work all the time
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: and has done well. My sister lives outside of Anatchi, Washington,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: the wine business, okay. And my other sister, Erica lives
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: on cape Cod, where we spent most of our summers.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: She has a house on Cape Cod. We're in gape Cod,
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: h Brewster. Okay, let me ask you this. There are
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: five kids in the family. Obviously, the older brother is
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: an attorney who graduated from college. Did the others graduate
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: in Podcasah, So you're the black sheep.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: I am the only one who didn't graduate.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: But are you, generally speaking, the black sheep in the family.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: No?
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: Okay? Why the music business or entertay? Maybe it wasn't music,
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: maybe it was entertainment. What was it at first?
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: Well, for the two months or three months to college,
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: I was going to be an URTV major radio television major. Okay.
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: I was a high school DJ, you know. It was
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: DJing in college for those three months. But I hated college.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: And I was a music freak, okay, and not because
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: I knew so much about it, but in high school,
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: every day after school we would find someone who had
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: a car. I would go down to a record store,
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: smoked up and thumb through the bins, you know, and
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: then hopefully once a month you could afford to go
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: to a shell and you'd stand in line at ten
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: am when the gate would open and you'd buy your
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: ticket then stand in line to the out door open.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: And we were vested in our artists. Back then, it
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: was a totally different thing, and we didn't see our
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: artists unless you saw him live or on the back
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 2: of an LP, front of LP. Okay. So that excitement
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: of seeing Jesse, Colin Yell or you know whoever, you know,
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: it was just like Wow, that dude's cool, you know.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 2: And so he bought into the art. I really bought
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: into it, and I loved music. So what happened was
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: I was working at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse and my brother
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: was down here and he opened up the Hollywood Reporters.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: He came to my house and I'm on the roof
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: top of my place. I was living in Beverly Hills,
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: and he said, dude, look at this, this is you.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: This is you. You got to do this. And it
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: was a catlecall advertisement for the mail room at Glamory.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: So well, I'm getting married next week, just let's go
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: do it. So I go over there do it. I
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: was marrying carry Alice, whose father was herb Ellis, who
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: was a great jazz guitarist herbalus So Jim Moury and
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: Sandy both knew who Herb was and s yeah, I'm
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: Mary carry Alice Herbs. Well you're hired, dude. Sure, And
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: then I say to Jim. I go, Jim, there's one issue.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: He goes, what's the issue? I go, I can't stop
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: for four weeks because I'm getting married. Then I'm going
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: to Saint Barts in Saint Martin's. Well you still have
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: the job for me. They looked at me, they said, too,
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: if you got some balls, I go, all right, we'll
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: hold the job for you. So I came back and
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: started the job, and things just happened.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, you're working at Gallan Morey at the time.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: How many people are working there?
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 2: I can count the offices cale pressman one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: eight nine to about about about fourteen, And what was
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: your gig mail room? I would go buy every desk
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: and collect the mail. Back then there was faxes, print
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: the foxes or copy the foxes. And then I would
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 2: get a call from Sandy's assistant saying, hey, you got
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: to go down to Farah Fawcett's house and deliver the script.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: No way, dude, really sweet sweet or Streisand's house or yeah,
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 2: there's a great there's a great story. And you know,
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: I got a got hired for the wedding, but I
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: really started in November, okay, and Dolly Parton to a
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: Christmas party at Sandy's house all the time, okay, and
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: they would import snow from the mountains all this, and
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: so Sandy goes, hey, can you come to the party.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: I go, yeah, for sure, dude, I'm there. And some
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: I probably was serving him a McDonald's hamburger, taking off
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: the pickle, so something like that. Menial shit. Okay, So
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: I dude, honey, I hadn't been divorce. Shit, honey, We're
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: going to Dolly Parton's Christmas party. We go and the
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 2: whole thing was no, he wanted me to work the
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: party the front door, and it was so embarrassing to me.
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay. But what happened was once everyone
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 2: was in, I went to a round tablet ten by
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 2: the pool and it was like quincy, all these people
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: and I just pretended like I knew everyone wast hanging
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 2: out with the like hey, how you doing. And so
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: it's a great story because it was so humiliating, but
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: I made the best of.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: It, exactly why did you break up with the first life.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: I went out with Dice on the road, and I
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: came back and realized I got too married too early,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 2: and there's this whole new world opening up for me,
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: and I don't think I can really focus on this
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: when I've got this, and I really think I can
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: do this, you know. So it was a selfish kind
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 2: of move. But she didn't like the fact that I
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: was getting into the music business because her dad was
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: in the music business.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: She wanted me to be a restauranteur or whatever it is. Okay,
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: So I think she was relieved and we parted great
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: friends and she knows people in my world still, and.
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: You know, it's all good. And I thought, okay, so
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: you're in the mail room. It's well known that's getting
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: your foot in the door. When do you actually do
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: more than deliver mail? And within a month and you're
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: doing what.
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: Barry Josephson was still there, and he he did an assistant.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: So he put me at his desk as his assistant,
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: which was a horrifying situation. A I couldn't type, okay,
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: you know, so I'm taking messages, dialing the phones back
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: in the old days, you know, rolling calls for him
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: and uh, trying to deal with problems that I knew
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 2: nothing about, Okay, because it happened to so quick, and
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: so I was terrible. But what happened was all his
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: clients loved me, so he had to deal with me, okay,
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: and and he was a very hard boss, but they
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: all were back then. You know, it was a different
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: world where they could abuse you, like, here's your Christmas bonus,
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: like one hundred and one dollar bills, Throw them on
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: the floor and I'll pick it up and get out
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: of you. That kind of attitude. Okay. There's that movie
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: with Kevin Spacey and what's his name about a guy
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: in the mail. Yeah, so that was really written by
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 2: the guy who replaced me at that desk. Okay, who
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 2: wrote that? So that was his experience. Okay, So it's
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 2: like that. But then Barry leaves and there needed to
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 2: be someone to help with his clients that stayed Dice, okay,
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: and so bye bye. Three months in that could be
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: off a month. Three months in, Dice pulls me out
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: of that office, says here with me. Oh, this is
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 2: gonna be fun. You know, it's a great I'm gonna
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: learn every aspect of the business over a year. You know,
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: I'll be involved in shooting Ford Fairley in the movie
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: for twentieth Century Fox. We have an ABC deal we're
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: going to get We're going out on tour. Dennis Arfa
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: great agent, is his agent, so I'm going to be
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: around him. Rick Rubin's going to produce the record. So
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: I got all this experience in a short period of time.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: So I was fortunate.
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, Dice had this unbelievable vertical ascension. Then he theoretically
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: got being from him to then he was over. Then
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: he came back, you know, on TV for a while.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: What is misunderstood or what were the missteps by Dice?
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: When I started with Dice were Here's Comedy Store, okay.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: And then we did the Beacon Theater for New Year's
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: Eve for HBO okay, and that kicked it in. And
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: I was still an assistant for that HBO show. And
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: then it was January after that, and his his stick
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 2: was so unique and so raw and so offensive and
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: politically incorrect. Before there was politically incorrect, But there was
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: this change happening in the entertainment industry where it was
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: becoming politically incorrect, especially because the people that were running
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: the business, Sandy, Barry Diller, David Geffen, Okay, so he
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: wouldn't stop himself from going farther and farther. And also
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: what happened was we were doing what was it, the
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 2: MTV thing or whatever, and Dick Clark was producing it,
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 2: and I'm on the side of the stage. It goes,
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 2: we're running short. We need you to stretch your material,
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: and we had to clear the material with television because
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 2: he couldn't curse, okay, and it flipped Dice out, not anger,
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 2: just fear because he didn't know how to stretch. You know,
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: a comedian works on the tight ten or tight twenty,
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: whatever it is. So he had to ad lib and
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: he went into protection mode and went into the dark
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: stuff and cursing and you know, lighting Cerrante on stage
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: or whatever it was, and sudden the Redstone is dialing
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: in said get him off the stage. He's blackball bloomoom
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: boom boom. And from that point on it just kept
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: on crippling down, you know. But it was an amazing
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: running had and I got there. I had a lot
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: of fun with the guy. I mean, here's a guy
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: that got really fortunate, stayed at it, believed in it,
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: and once again McDonald's. You know. Theory is people knew
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 2: what they were getting when they went to his show,
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 2: and they loved it, you know, and he stayed to
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: that and he was really good to me and his parents. Freddy,
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 2: it was it was awesome to me, and you know,
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 2: it was just such an amazing experience. And he was
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: he was a good guy. He was basically a sober
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 2: guy out of just not trying to be sober, but
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 2: he wasn't partying and he didn't do anything, you know,
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 2: and so it was great. You know, it was a
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: great dealing with them. I had great footage of just
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: us on a tour bus together or whatever. It just
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 2: was a moment and it was fantastic. It failed because
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 2: he was put in a situation that he couldn't handle
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 2: and that was the beginning of the end. That night
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 2: was the beginning of the end.
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: So did with you and Dice? And what did you
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: do next?
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: Well, maybe it depends on who you ask. How how
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 2: I look at it is is that I we found
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: a comedian in Kansas City who did fairly well. Eddie Griffin,
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: Fast Eddie a bunch of Joel Silver movies. Stand up.
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 2: He's a great funny guy. Okay, we find Eddie while
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: we're on the road, Eddie. I'm managing Eddie. Now, Okay,
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: Eddie starts kind of happening. Dice is kind of you know,
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: slowing down. And he didn't like the fact that I
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: managed Eddie, and I said, well, fine, you know, love you, Dice.
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: I'm ag Eddie. And that was, you know, before I
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: got into music business. Really I was in the comedy world.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: So that happened. Then the Eddie thing didn't work out,
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: even though like he lived in my office, you know,
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: and he was just starving, you know, and I'd feed
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: him and get his teeth work done or whatever, you know.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: And that didn't work out. And so I was looking
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: for my next entertainment thing and it was a It
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 2: was with a guy named Matt Robinson.
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you know Matt.
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: He was a DJ and we had he had clubs,
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 2: portable clubs, you know, move around clubs, peace posse and
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: all these things back in the early nineties. And he
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: needed like a business partner kind of as he was unorganized.
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: And so he and I were working and we had
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 2: a club every Friday night on Pico at the Chicken Shack,
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 2: I think it was called. And a lot of celebrities
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: were coming to our club. We had great DJs and
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: it was kind of dance hall, hip hop, reggae kind
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: of club. It was cool back then. Chris Blackwell would
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 2: come into the club. So Blackwell gave us our own
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: record label, Peace Polsey Records, and there's an We signed Ikamause,
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: who was a dance hall awesome guy, crazy dude. And
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: I did that for like a year and a half,
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: two years, but the label never worked and I was
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: getting bored and restless, and that's kind of you know,
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 2: around the time I met Mick and and I was
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: working with some other another gal. We were partners as
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 2: managers type of thing trying to make and she had
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: Delight and I was doing some stuff for the Fix,
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 2: and then it was Fleetwood and then it just kept
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 2: on going, the Cult, House of Pain Everthelass, Boston White Take,
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 2: you know, Tommy Zzy, It just kept on going.
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: So how'd you get involved with the Sanctuary guys?
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: Merk saw that I was making money, you know money,
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: and I had very strong roster for a manager coming
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 2: into that place, okay, and he knew I I had
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: a big tour coming up with so he wanted to
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: buy into that revenue. So he bought in and then
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 2: made me co president with Peter Asher right down when
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: he bought in, and then Merk I had to leave, okay,
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 2: and they made me seeeo or champed to see you
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: of Sanctuary and it was really.
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: Wait wait, just to be clear, when you start, is
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: already owned by Universal? No?
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 2: No, I started when it was dealing.
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: But it was already public when you were Yes, it
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: was public.
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: How long did you work there before it was sold
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: to Universal?
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: Five years?
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 1: So tell us about Merk.
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: Did you read his new Yeah? I did, Okay, Yeah,
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: he and I are two totally two different people, Okay,
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: as far as our philosophies, the way we operate, he said, dude,
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: that will always find a way to land on his feet.
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: I don't necessarily agree with how he ran Sanctuary, and
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure if I ever did a
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 2: company it was polar opposite of Sanctuary.
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: Seriously, just to be clear, how was it run?
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 2: He made deals based on the next six months year
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: with managers. Okay, not how great that manager is and
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 2: this isn't my opinion. He has done extremely well, so
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: I could be totally off. But he was not ever
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: worried about a year from now. It was really like
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 2: I said that quarter or that half year, okay. And
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 2: my philosophy, as I said earlier on, was long term,
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 2: long term. We can sustain long term. So that and
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: I questioned the other managers there, and I know a
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 2: lot of them and I like them, but you know,
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 2: it's like huh, and and we accounted to things differently, okay.
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 2: And so when he moved on the board, brought me
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: to London and asked me if i'd help them get
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 2: it to a point where we could have someone buy
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: it off the street. Okay, and I did. But murk
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 2: Is is a unique person. I think he knows music.
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: He's a music fan for sure.
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: That's sure.
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 2: He knows it, he cares about it. But there's other
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 2: influences in the way he conducts his business. Okay, that's
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 2: in his own head.
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. What's different now that it's sold
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: to Universal? What's different about working a Universal? Why do
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 1: you have to get out?
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: I don't think at that point Labels Lucian understood what
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: I did, okay, and really understood the music business. I
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 2: think they were more a business once again of the immediate.
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 2: And I don't think Lucien ever understood why I would
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: manage is Easy or Fleewood Mac No No, find me
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: a Gaga, Find me a Gaga. Okay, forget the old mans,
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: but the old mans are making me a lot every year,
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 2: like more than looking for Gaga. That company won't sustain itself,
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 2: and then I'm fired. I don't want to do that,
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 2: you know. And it wasn't hard conversation. It was just
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: a different philosophical way of doing things. So I wanted
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: out and I got out thanks to help from Herring,
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 2: you know. And I just kind of did my own
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 2: thing with my bands that have been with me ever.
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like until Heartwick, you know, just knocked
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 2: on my door.
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's jump to today. You're making a deal with
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: the label. You know, we went through the old school.
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 1: We went through twenty first century, three sixty deals. Now
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 1: there's leverage because you might have a TikTok success. How
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: have you found the deals changed? And what are the
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: deals today?
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 2: Deals are one don't come with the same advance okay,
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: a lesser marketing commitment, okay, a lesser commitment to the
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: individual the artist, and you're really hoping you throw something
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: against the wall and it works, you know, but that
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 2: doesn't change how we think. But that's what the label thinks. Okay.
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: And you have to cough up any rights beyond just
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: the raw recordings, and you can you get those back?
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: Can you have re record? What are your deals like
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: with all this deal.
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 2: The deals now are more licensing deals for a term,
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 2: a ten year term. Then everything reverts back to you. Okay,
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: and the re record rights followed that term usually.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, let me go back a step. You talk about, well,
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: I went to NBC. I'm doing this special. You're a
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: guy who works in restaurants. You say you're a hustler.
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: It's not like you grew up in the business and
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: your you know, your father's friends came to the house,
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 1: et cetera. No, how did you make these relationships and
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: how did you make these deals? And how do you
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: do it today?
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: I learned quickly, okay. But how I was able to
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: function in that world? You know? Early on, when I
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: was in the restaurant business in La I would go
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: to the right places, and I happened to meet certain
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 2: people that were artists okay, that liked me and tagged
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 2: me along, okay, And whether it was hanging out Roxbury
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: if you remember Roxbury, you know, or whatever club, China Club,
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 2: whatever you know, and I was always there with the
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 2: right people. And they grew and I grew and a
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: group and I I look at myself. This is a
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: dis on myself. Okay. When I was a skier, my
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 2: name was in Carl. I was called c W, which
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: is my initials. My father called me that, my mother,
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: every friend I still have back then calls me that.
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: When I came to La, basically I changed to Carl,
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 2: and I put on an act just to be able
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 2: to fit in. But I learned that act by moving
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: around with my father, parents and family. Because when you
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 2: move from Seattle to Jersey, totally different. You're not You're
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: not wearing swabies, You're wearing Levi's and ducksiders okay, new wardrobe,
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: you know. So so I know I acted this role,
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 2: that I knew what I was doing, and that that
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 2: that I fit in with this culture, this world. And
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 2: in doing so, you open your ears and you hear
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: a lot of stuff, and you're willing to learn, and
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: you never pretend like you know everything, but you do
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: live in that world. And it just kind of worked
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 2: that way.
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's assume your brainstorming in the office, we're virtually however,
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: you do it and you go, you know, we need
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 1: a TV special on this, or we need a movie.
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: You have the concept. Do you then work backward and say,
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: you know, I know so and so. Who knows so
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: and so will put me together? Where do you say? Oh,
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 1: that's Netflix, that's Hulu, that's NBC, this is the person
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: who runs it. Let me cold call them.
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 2: Well, it can work like that, and it's also can
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 2: work that. If it's today not when I was younger,
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 2: it's different. So I'll call CI or William Morris and
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: this is my idea, put together ten meetings for me.
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: Then I'll go take the meetings. Okay. If it's you know,
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: if it was like Rockstar Super and Ova with Mark
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 2: Burnett at CBS produced, it came up with it with Mark.
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 2: It was not just called Mark, you know, and talk
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: to Mark about it, you know, because I'd met him
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 2: or whatever it was. You know, it all depends, you know,
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 2: where we're going with the project, what type of project
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 2: it is, and where it fits with the NBC show
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 2: it was. I hired a showrunner who handled them setting
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 2: up the meetings, and I would show to the meetings
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 2: because I knew how to sell what my view was,
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 2: and that's how it was done. I would show up
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: and I'd be there, and I'd come up and create it.
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 2: You know, you know, wine or liquor spirits. I know
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 2: people in that world, you know, So I'll make the call.
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 2: It all depends on what. But yeah, let me help
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 2: you get there. We'll get you there, you know. Okay,
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 2: one way or another, I'll get you there.
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: Live Business today there are two behemoths. Live Nation is
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: very much in favor of making tour deals, being on
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: the other side of the fence. What's your philosophy.
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 2: I think it depends on the act, and I think
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 2: it depends on the timing of when you're going out
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 2: and also the history you have. So in other words,
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 2: Live Nation has been very good to me with a
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 2: lot of my acts, but not all my acts. Two deals, okay,
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 2: one usually Fleevo Mac we deal right, but you know
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 2: there's deals that we don't take money. We just want
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 2: everything right. Everything, okay, and it works because you know,
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 2: you sell tickets. Okay, then with as easy. There's some
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 2: ag shows, there's some Like Nation shows, there's some independent shows,
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 2: and I won't do a whole deal okay, crowded house,
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 2: same thing, you know. And that's Neil's mind too. He
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 2: doesn't want to just be owned by Live Nation. You know,
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 2: we like Live Nation, but we're not on and we'll
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 2: do this and that and that and this with these
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 2: people and then the younger acts. We're not really making
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 2: deals with one agency. I mean, I know those deals
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 2: and I've seen them, and I see where they don't
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: work for the artists. You know, there's a there's a
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 2: big size band that did one, and those deals are
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 2: different thought the FLEETODMAC deals. I mean it's like, okay,
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 2: we get the next hundred shows or the same amount
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: of time, and we'll figure out when they are, where
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: they are. All that kind of shit. And it takes
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: these bands years to recoup. But what happened was their
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 2: business skyrocket. But you're living to that old guarantee. Not
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: a good deal.
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: You know. Since the insolidation and professionalization of the live business,
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: how does that work to the advantage your disadvantages of
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 1: the acts.
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 2: M hmm. I think there's there's, like you said, there's
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 2: advantages and disadvantage.
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 2: It's like but with you know, Ticketmaster all that kind
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 2: of stuff, you know, and the way life nation is
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 2: with that kind of thing, it's potentially taking money off
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 2: the table for the band. It's really taking money away
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 2: from the van, you know. And but then again it's
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 2: how you structure those deals, you know. It's it's you
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: need to can't do that, you can't do this, you know,
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 2: and just negotiate it. But it's it's it's certainly also hurt.
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 2: What I think is the marketing of of the tours
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 2: of the bands. So you go up on sale, you
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 2: have a breakout, and then it's gone, okay, So you
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 2: shall generate all your revenue over a week period of time,
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 2: and the show's not for six months. Nothing happens after that,
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 2: even when you're going in market, unless you're stiffing, then
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: they'll put a little more money into it. Where when
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 2: Don Law or Golden Voice or whatever, back in the
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 2: old days, they would be firing stickering and there was
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 2: really a presence of that band coming, which helps record sales,
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 2: which helps everything else that's not there anymore. It's like void.
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 2: I go to a Fleetwood mac shown Chicago sold out
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: three in a row. But if you didn't buy a ticket,
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: you don't even know if they're there. Where before even
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 2: if you didn't go, you would see it and there
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 2: was present. Okay. So that's a lot of the problem
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 2: of the monumentality of how it is. But it's radio
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 2: is less important, so they don't win the radio. You know,
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 2: the Internet that's of the moment. So is it a
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 2: product of the way media has become or is it
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 2: a product of way a major kind oft promoter saves money?
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about it a Can you talk about Fleewood
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: Max an instant sellout? Let's use zz top? Did you
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 1: bring them up? Most of the gigs are non instant sellouts,
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 1: So how do you ultimately fill the building?
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 2: We? Yeah, with zz we have an insane database, okay,
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 2: that we deal with. We don't give it to someone
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 2: and we're active in the database with our fans and
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 2: they're aware of it. We're not like blindsiding them, you know.
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 2: And that's a band that can still organically sell out
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 2: over time for some reason. Okay, are we doing that
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 2: much different than the other band now, but it works.
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 2: And Zzi is an interesting thing because here's a band
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 2: that does under shows here every year for seventeen years.
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 2: They've done it with me and they want it. It's
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 2: not manager saying to it I pull back, pull back
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 2: you no, no, no gigsters. You know, we're fucking gigsters.
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 2: All right, let's do it. We got to be creative,
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 2: we got to go into different markets.
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 1: Whatever.
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 2: But it's it almost becomes to a ZZ fan like
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 2: an annual thing. Okay, it's annual, you know, and those
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 2: fans are so loyal to that band, and yeah, and
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 2: we still you know, when I took Zzy on, I
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 2: didn't really understand z Easytop, not musically, I mean the
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 2: business I didn't understand. So I went to Houston to
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 2: the Houston Rodeo where they were playing in front of
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 2: sixty five thousand people, and I decided just to walk
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 2: the parking lot, you know, check out the vibe. And
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 2: because I was so focused on the coasts, you know,
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 2: and so I see a grandmother, daughter, husband, their kids,
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 2: like five of them walking into the venue, all ages,
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 2: and they're all got ZZ shirts, Zazy cooozies these the acts,
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 2: thesey everything. I go, dude, these are loyal fans. This
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 2: is a business that I have not been in and
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 2: I want to be a part of it. And it's
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 2: been successful. But before I got involved, the manager prior
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 2: didn't want them doing television, didn't want them doing articles,
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: didn't want them to be exposed at all, and hit
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 2: them because he thought, well, and he was right back
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 2: in the old days, it's a mystery. You don't give
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 2: it all the way, you know whatever. But in the
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 2: new world of post MTV and social media and all
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 2: this stuff. So I did a documentary that did really
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 2: well on Netflix with them. I got them on television,
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 2: I got them doing you know, big event shows, you know.
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 2: And so I took him out out of the fair
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 2: business and brought them back into the hard ticket business
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 2: that was Michael and I had some great agents that
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 2: worked with me, that understood my vision, you know, and
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 2: it worked out. And now you know, we're bigger in
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 2: Europe than we are in the United States. And when
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 2: I started with them, they hadn't been to Europe for
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 2: ten years or something, you know, But we worked them
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 2: in Europe and then they became Americana cheeky you know
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 2: type thing over the real deal, the real deal. We
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 2: went to Australia this year, sold everything out, everything. It
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 2: was crazy doing eighteen bucks ahead and T shirts, all
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 2: this stuff on fire, you know. So we built them
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 2: in other markets and we made it an international act
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 2: and I Chase. I spent a lot of time with
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: Billy even about microphones you know or whatever, you know,
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 2: and stage dressings and sets and all this kind of shit.
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: And Billy's a really smart guy and a very very
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 2: spot on you know, but he was He was great,
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 2: you know, he listened, he talked, we'd riff and we
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 2: became close, you know, like all my clients and I'll
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 2: have ten bad ideas and if there's one good one
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 2: in there, we're winning or we're winning.
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: So okay, zz top one hundred dates a year actually
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 1: don't represent sticks out every year, deaf leppards seemingly.
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 2: Everything ARD's amazing.
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 1: Okay. In the old days they say let it lie fallow, Hey,
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 1: what's your philosophy on that? And b is this just
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 1: going to go on forever?
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that the general philosophy is take those breaks,
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 2: you know, because it refuels the T shirt business the
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 2: ticket business all that. Certain bands can get away with it.
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 2: I don't think many bands can do what sticks does
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 2: c Z. Cheap Trick another one of my bands, you know,
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: Cheap Trick. We took on Cheap Trick just four months ago.
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 2: I had them out with Easy. This band can be
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 2: something still. This is an interesting band, you know, but
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 2: it's kind of like they're working too much. They're going
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 2: into the wrong rooms, all that kind of stuff. So
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 2: I met the band, they decided to go with us,
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 2: put two of my guys on it, and we're doing well.
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 2: And it's the same idea as Easy. They you had
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 2: to weed the garden. You know, it's a dirty garden.
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 2: Let's make it a clean garden. You know. That's weed
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 2: it to make it pretty, you know, And how do
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 2: you do that will put them in the right place.
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about a band like Jeep Trick, well
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: known rock and roll Hall of Fame members. Is there
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: any upside you're talking about Zezy Top business increased in Europe,
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 1: but they haven't been there. Is it more about maintaining
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 1: the business of these acts or is there anything that
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 1: could make it grow.
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 2: There's plenty of things that potent could make it grow.
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 2: Maintaining is not what our goal is when we get involved,
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 2: you know, because once again, I was never a big
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 2: cheap trick fan, Okay, but I knew they could play.
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 2: I think they still look good and they wrote some
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 2: great fucking songs. Okay. So how do we expose them
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 2: to different audience to not lose audience but gather more
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 2: people that weren't ticket buyers, record buyers, whatever it is.
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 2: How do we do that by putting them in places
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 2: they haven't been or giving them looks they've never had.
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: Just give me an example of both of those places
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: they haven't been there.
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 2: We'll go out and open up for a band that
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 2: you haven't opened up for ten million times, okay, go
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 2: out with fucking Rod Stewart okay, or get them on
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 2: a late night television show, even though that doesn't move
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 2: the needle of sales, Okay, it doesn't, but it does
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 2: impact the image and the perception of that band. Okay.
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 2: Do things like that, you know, do a real documentary
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 2: about the band in Rufford, Illinois, you know, or whatever.
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 2: It's like, it's it's educating people because I can play
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 2: a cheap trick song surrender, Okay to my wife or
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 2: to a friend and they, oh, I know that song,
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: Well who does that song? I don't know. So it's
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: educating people too on who wrote those songs and who's
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 2: behind those songs. And that is through proper articles, documentaries,
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 2: you know, educational pieces.
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 1: And what's your philosophy on soft ticket sales soft ticket shows?
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 2: Well, dependents if it's if it's sometimes they're needy because
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 2: it's part of the routing. Okay ah to be a
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 2: country act that only does soft tickets, which is not
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 2: unique in that business. You know, I think it does
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 2: nothing for the building of the growth of the band,
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 2: the loyalty to the band, all those things. If I
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 2: know I can see such and such act at a
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 2: radio show every year, welly, I'm ever going to buy
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 2: a ticket. So how does that band make money in touring?
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 1: They don't.
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 2: Plus they're there for twenty other bands, and so what's
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 2: the point. You know, festivals that are heart ticket festivals,
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 2: you know, like a bottle Rock or a Lolla plusa whatever.
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 2: I think are great, but not too much of it.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 2: I think when we played and Zeezi played Stagecoach or Creed.
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 2: This last year played stage Coach, it was a fantastic
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 2: moment because it was playing in front of people that
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 2: never would have bought a ticket, and that brings even
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 2: if you got half a percent of those people, that's
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 2: growing business. Okay, and word of mouth. Boy, I saw
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 2: a Creed. I was in the gym and Sun Valley
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 2: and one of the gym rats comes up to me
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 2: and says, here, you work with Creed? Go yeah, he goes, dude,
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 2: I was at stagecoach. Greatest show I've ever seen in
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 2: my life, never seen them before, you know, And it's like, wow, okay, sweet,
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 2: you know, but that just that alone. They're talking.
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 1: Let's just talk Creed for a second now. Scott Staff
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 1: has a horrendous reputation. Yeah, and uh, Creed. A lot
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 1: of people don't like, how do you rebuild Creed?
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 2: Well, it's working, okay, because if you look at the
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 2: tickets out, it's huge right now. Okay, it's huge. It's
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 2: it's arenas, it's sheds, and it's bigger than it's been
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 2: for a long time. How do you make them more
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 2: acceptable to not their core? Well that's a challenge. Okay, Uh,
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 2: but we kind of if you last Super Bowl, we
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 2: had a commercial, you know, I can't even remember who
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 2: it was for, but it was a commercial with a
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 2: Creed song and the band briefly in it and all
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 2: this kind of stuff. That was one impression. You know,
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 2: they were down in Indianapolis five hundred performing with Tom Brady.
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 2: That was all over the place all sudden. Okay, you're
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 2: with somebody different, something new, and then people go to
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 2: it and they're like, wow, this is pretty awesome.
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 2: And once again, wasn't a big Creed fan. But I
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 2: managed Scott a long time ago, okay, and he came
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 2: back and asked me to be.
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 1: About Okay, So what's the future of rock? All your
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 1: big acts are rock acts. They certainly have little participation
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 1: in the Spotify tough fifty. What's the state of rock
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 1: and where's it going? Well?
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 2: I think rock something changes and it changes every year. Okay,
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 2: But if we looked at where's going to be in
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 2: ten years from now a few point of today, where
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 2: can it go? You know? Ai TikTok. All these different
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 2: mediums and technologies will erase the organic band and rock
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 2: was based on real bands, real writers and working hard
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 2: to build a handbase, not of the moment. Okay, and
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 2: rock Rock's hot now, but I don't know how it
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: survives social media, okay, and long term I'm not sure.
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 1: Okay. So finally, what is the future of the business.
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 1: Some people in certain businesses they said, well, I'm not
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 1: going to live that long and I'll just ride into
• 2:09:48
  Speaker 1: the sunset and that's it. You're obviously not that guy,
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 1: because you said you already have enough money. You know,
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 1: you're not working for the money or the money's always nice.
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 2: I like money.
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 1: Everybody likes it's solid.
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 2: I'm not that right.
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 1: So where is the business going? What changes do you
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 1: see and where is it going to end up?
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that, because you read
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 2: Gibbons sent me this podcast guy and I can't think
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 2: of his name. It was talking about music sucks now
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 2: Rick Beatle, Yeah, did you see that thing?
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 2: And you start what the hell you know? Or that
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 2: you know? And I watched that. It's just so scary,
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 2: you know, and it's so anti what I think. And
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 2: it's about art, you know, it's even if you the
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 2: Bob Dylan movie okay, okay, whether you like it or not, Okay,
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 2: the Bob Dyler movie. It showed a moment in music history. Okay,
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 2: when it was pure, when they really cared and worked hard,
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 2: and yeah they wanted success, they needed money, but it
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 2: was like a community and it was fucking cool, you know.
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 2: And if it's going farther and farther away from there,
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 2: so if that continues that path, it will be artists
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 2: that aren't real artists or music that lives for five
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 2: minutes and gone, and there won't be the Bob Dylan's,
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 2: the Fluid Max, the Zzy Tops whatever, you know, they
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 2: won't be able to come back. It's not geared that
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 2: way anymore. It's not so eventually what happens then, well
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 2: it's all synthetic shit, you know, And so who are
• 2:11:36
  Speaker 2: the artists? Who cares for the artists? I just like
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 2: to listen to the song. Listen, you listen to your
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 2: favorite band from the seventies, it brings a memory, you know.
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 2: These songs are not memorable. These songs are not a memory.
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 2: Watermelon Sugar and I love Harry Styles great, I like them,
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 2: But is that going to ten years from now, twenty
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 2: years in somebody's life be a memory, you know, like
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 2: like a Zeppelin song and Pink Floyd the Wall or whatever. Yeah,
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 2: but the record we sat down I had my friends
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 2: come over, we played it. I shared the record with them.
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 2: You know, that whole community, it's not there anymore, and
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 2: without community long term is scary.
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to do it till you drop.
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 2: You ever gonna rend? No, Well, at some of them probably,
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 2: you know, at some level. Although watched tomorrow announce that
• 2:12:30
  Speaker 2: I'm retiring and I'm going to some valley and I'm
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 2: working on a pick a ball game and skiing every day.
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 2: How about that? But I got fifty days in this.
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 1: Year, so I got one hundred and two. Where three
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 1: of them in Aspen, the rest in Veil. But that's
• 2:12:46
  Speaker 1: a separate conversational. That's a separate conversation. But you're obviously
• 2:12:51
  Speaker 1: building an asset. Yeah, yeah, so at some point you
• 2:12:54
  Speaker 1: want to sell it. Yeah, at some point, could be soon.
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 1: Uh well, let's just assume. Just assume it is soon.
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 1: A lot of people I know are in your boat
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 1: whose money is not the primary driver. They don't want
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 1: to be on the outside. They don't want to miss
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 1: the action. Could you literally say, Okay, I'm done and
• 2:13:16
  Speaker 1: I'm living in Sun Valley, I got a young kid.
• 2:13:18
  Speaker 1: Everything's groovy and I'm happy. Are you going to say, shit,
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 1: you know, the email's not coming in. I'm not on
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 1: a plane.
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 2: This is weird, No, I take I think I'm a
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 2: little different than that, you know, I think c W.
• 2:13:31
  Speaker 2: It's this shoulder, carls that shoulder. C W's still there.
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 2: S kee bum, okay, skey bum. I'm acting Carl every day. Well,
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 2: maybe that act is over. I go back to CW.
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 2: And by the way, I own pieces of restaurants, I
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 2: own a musical, I own this. I'll keep those things,
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 2: you know. But if I if I was to sell
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 2: the company, I'd have to stay with the company because
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 2: the company's predicated on me as the driver. It's a
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 2: service business, so it's not an asset, so you have
• 2:13:59
  Speaker 2: to stay for a while.
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily forever.
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 2: But then it becomes like an emeritis chairman or whatever
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 2: it is, you know, and you're still involved, you know,
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 2: and your kid's going to be successful in it, Jackson
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 2: is going to be you know, and you're advising that
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 2: there's plenty of action in my life not to have
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 2: to be day to day okay involved. However, for the
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 2: next probably three to five years, I'm definitely day today.
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 2: You know, there's no outing because I'm not prepared to
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 2: let even if I don't. If I weren't selling, weren't
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 2: going to sell it, and I'm not saying I'm selling
• 2:14:33
  Speaker 2: right now. But if the plan was for always, then
• 2:14:36
  Speaker 2: I got to still build it bigger so it survives
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 2: better chance of survival. So I'm committed to that.
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 1: And on that note, I think we've come to the
• 2:14:45
  Speaker 1: end of the feeling we've known. Carl, thanks so much
• 2:14:49
  Speaker 1: for spending this time with my audience and going through
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 1: the history and philosophy.
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's my pleasure, you know. I just hope I
• 2:14:58
  Speaker 2: didn't say too many times. He's got that right on.
• 2:15:01
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. Until next time. This is Bob
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 1: left Sex
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 2: Sh