Latest / Outside the Box with Leon Osman and Tony Bellew / Everton Lose Gana, Grealish Latest & Could Eddie Howe Replace Moyes? | Outside the Box

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Everton Lose Gana, Grealish Latest & Could Eddie Howe Replace Moyes? | Outside the Box · Outside the Box with Leon Osman and Tony Bellew

• 0:00
  Listen, I've only just got up. You made me get up early. I'll bed here. You mean proper early rise, are you, aren't you? I'm an hour ahead. It's actually, you know, it's now 10 o'clock here. If I'm on holiday, I'm not getting up before 10. Not a chance. I know, yeah. It's more like a late afternoon for you, I can imagine. Yeah. We've been up for hours. It's just what you do.
• 0:24
  Come on, let's get going. I do a dog walk in the morning about my phone, Tony, so I didn't see it until I got back in. Don't worry, champ. I knew Leon wasn't going to be ready. Don't be making excuses. Just tell him no. No means no.
• 0:40
  I'll start my off with you, you little shit. Let's get going. Right, here, let me just see what... Let me just go. Oh, start, pah. Hold it, yeah, it's been up for hours. Isn't he yawning his head off? No, no, no. You could... Sounds like you could do it. So this mic is working... This mic is working well, isn't it? This mic is working well that I'm using. What? Yeah, you're fine. This mic... Okay. What? Shut up, soft ass.
• 1:06
  Right, I'm all good. I'm good to go. I can get him on that ball all day long, you know. He just doesn't stop. It's like it's ingrained in him. He can't help it.
• 1:15
  No, it is an Aussie classic line, to be fair. Oh, yeah, dad jokes. I love my dad jokes. But no, they hate my dad jokes at all, but anyway, I love them. Right, anyway. I've got to be honest, lads. I've been really bored recently because the World Cup's finished. Fussy hasn't really kicked off yet. Have you watched any of the friendlies? Anything like keeping your appetite alive? Liam, it's been like a week since the World Cup's finished. It's been a really boring seven days, has it?
• 1:42
  That's enough for me. I'm a bit worried about you, Liam. I mean, I'm a bit worried about... Football nuts. What are you meant to do and talk about when football isn't on? Golf, Liam. Actually, that's it. I don't play golf. I definitely don't do boxing. That would be an absolute nightmare. I literally do no other sports other than fuzzy.
• 2:02
  Don't you? I think I'd go nuts. And obviously I absolutely love football. It's what my career is about. I get into it heart and soul when I'm in. But I do also need just a couple of weeks just to switch off and try not to talk about it and just try and give it. Because for 10 months of the year usually and 11 months this year because of the World Cup, it's literally all you talk about. So...
• 2:30
  Yeah, I've enjoyed the last six days, or I did before topics kept coming up this week that actually started to really either make me passionate or annoy me a little bit. So yeah, I probably had three days there that I powered down.
• 2:49
  all the talk about where John Stone sits with regards to Premier League greats and some people are being so disrespectful to him I just can't get my head around how some people don't think he's
• 3:06
  one of the best centre-halves the Premier League's ever seen. Never mind England. They're called Coppites. They're called Coppites. That's all that is. Don't say they're a random people. That's just Coppites being hateful towards them. But I'll be honest, I absolutely hate football. I've had enough of it. I don't know. I mean...
• 3:25
  I'm not even playing properly at the moment that is the worrying part they haven't even kicked off yet that could send me over that could send me over if we don't kick off well at the start of the season that could be the end of me that could finish me right off because I'm at the stage and a lot of England have done to me I have never felt
• 3:43
  a loss like I felt that England won. And I'm really feeling it. And I just... I'm a bit worried. I'm not going to lie. I'm dreading. I'm dreading it starting. And that's a terrible thing to say, but I am. What, for Everton? Or just the Premier League in general? No, just...
• 4:02
  I think everyone's going to suffer because of this stupid World Cup. I mean, if we'd have won the World Cup, we'd have been the greatest tournament ever. Football would be great. I'd be so happy. But I think everyone's going to suffer from such hard, difficult tournament in that weather and in them conditions.
• 4:18
  even though they did have a hydration break every five minutes you know sponsored by Powerade as we all know they're coming into the Premier League this season now you know don't start me off I'm not in the mood I can't take that are you being serious? of course he's not being serious and we would not I mean what are we going to start doing 35 minutes half time shows as well is that what we're going to start doing I'm all in
• 4:43
  Only for the big games. Absolute clowns. Only for the big games. From starters. Clowns. Clowns of the highest order. They actually took a wonderful game and ruined it. That's what they've done. Silly Americans. Look.
• 4:56
  I love the World Cup, but you're right, we're now ready to start thinking about the season moving forward and we're ready to start after those four days, three or four days, you let me off, Liam, powering down for the end of season. Turn our attention back to Everton, isn't it? Yeah,
• 5:17
  I mean, we've had a couple of friendlies, beat Dundee quite comfortably, and a couple of nil-nils, Bolton and, well, we got beat by Stoke, I think, didn't we? One-nil. So, now I always say the Premier League, sorry, the pre-season friendlies aren't where Everton are at. Our style of play, all action, we need our full strength squad out there, which we haven't got.
• 5:39
  But it does just kind of highlight the deficiencies we've got within the squad these games, looking from the outside. Do you know when you did pre-season when you were a player, did you ever fear that the results really mattered? Or was it more of a case of trying out new things, getting your fitness up?
• 5:59
  When we lost, I said results didn't matter. When we won, they were very, very important. Do you know, it's when, you know, I think we'd ended up losing more than we won in pre-season. 100%. I never really remember us having particularly good pre-seasons, especially on the Mores. But I also remember, you know, like this year, we were missing...
• 6:26
  generally a few of our players that would come back quite late or right on the cusp of the season starting. And it's always difficult to get a bit of flow. Me personally, I needed a good four or five games, I felt, through the pre-season and probably another two or three into the season before I felt where I needed to be. And I always think that Everton are a club, we're not...
• 6:51
  We're not a team that is suited to a pre-season. Maybe it's where everyone wants us to be, but the teams that suit pre-season are those that just keep the ball, pass it to death, treat every game like a trainer session and progress with possession. But we're more of a competitive get-in-your-face, get tackles in, get the ball forward.
• 7:12
  good bit of pace and power to get some space to either get a shot in or a cross in and get on the end of it. You know, real all action. Final stages, they're the bits you pick up in the last couple of, probably in the last 10 days of pre-season because everything you did up till that, what you were training, where you were training your body to be able to...
• 7:35
  to not get injured, basically. You were training it to get through the whole of pre-season without picking up injuries. And you only built up the sharpness in the last 10 days. And I always felt that up until that point, we were okay in pre-season, but we had no power or burst or energy, really, to do that final thing. And it definitely showed in our results. Because I didn't think we always had those little game changes until the season started.
• 8:04
  Yeah, I've never really thought about it like that before because you're right, Everton's style is getting your face and that's not really a pre-season kind of vibe at all, is it? It's impossible to turn back up. It's impossible to turn back up after...
• 8:17
  six weeks off and just be ready to go sprinting and closing people down. I mean, Tony, you'll have experienced that in your training. You can't take however long you take off in between, you would personally in between fights and then come back and be, you know, you're probably a week away from fighting. It takes time. It takes months, not weeks, months to get up to training speed and preparation has to be perfect and you've got to be right. I just think
• 8:47
  I'm purely looking at this season. And going in, you know, our big players at the moment are missing. You've got people who are quite clearly looking to go. We've lost one of our most influential players of the last decade in a just around a game, now moved on. Yeah.
• 9:04
  And I just feel it's worrying. And then when you see the likes of Stones, he's going to enter Milan. I was just hoping he'd come home, to be honest. I was really hoping he was going to come back. But listen, I get it. I understand. He was never coming to us. Of course, I get it. But, you know, I'm a dreamer. And that's got me any farther in life.
• 9:24
  You've changed your tune. When we were texting, I was saying, he's never coming to us. You were saying, do you hold that thought that the Evertonians will hammer you on the podcast? Make sure you remember talking about that. I'm going to hammer you. And I was like, I'm being realistic. Stones is never leaving Bad City to come back to us. But you know, Jack Lewis did.
• 9:44
  If we were, Jack needed to be local and get a game to try and get in the World Cup squad. I was hoping Stones, he had the same feelings. Don't hit me, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just hoping he had the same feelings. I'm gutted, but I get him. Listen, he's going to go and play Champions League football. It's a new challenge for him. And I only wish him well. I love Stones, he's a boss lad. But...
• 10:07
  Yeah, I'm gutted. He'd have been so good coming back to us because so influential in the game. And I just thought, yeah, that's a mess. And then would have been great for certain youngsters in the squad to have been around. We've got some really talented, bright youngsters. And I think having a seniority and players who have won what he's won us around them is massive. Like, Jacky, this is such a good influence around players.
• 10:34
  On the pitch, I'm saying what he can do. And I just think them players... I just hate seeing kids, running kids. I want to see a little bit more seniority in players. Like Tarky's so important to the squad. Keno's so important to the squad. The players who've been there, seen it, done it, got the T-shirt. And I just think when you've got real youngsters, that's a big thing to have.
• 10:57
  I would love to have had him back, but it would have been interesting because John Stones will not kind of clear the ball unless it's past last-ditch emergency stuff. He'll dribble, he'll take it, he'll give it to other people. I would have been interested to watch him inside his own box roll a ball into, I don't know, like Tarkovsky with his back to goal. He'll say, here Tarkovsky, take that one.
• 11:22
  There would have been some comedy, frustration, panic, nerves from as well, but there would have been some funny moments if Stones, he came back rolling the ball into people under pressure. Just because he's so used to being able to do it at City. Even hitting the full-backs, it would be even more difficult for him there. Yeah, but I just think he's such a good player. And listen, he can also play defence midfield, but I just think him next to Jared, how much would Jared Lane play with him?
• 11:49
  And then you look at the sort of defenders, Jake O'Brien would learn so much. Because these are lads who, let's be honest, they're young lads. They've got so much ability and potential, Jared and Jake. And I hate that they're having to learn on the job. That's the end of the start, especially when you're playing that position, Os. But I think they're at that stage of the career that...
• 12:11
  if they don't know it and they have the potential to learn, the only place to learn is on the job. They can't come out of the game for six months to go and learn. They have to because their age they're at and where they're at in their career. They have to learn on the job. And yeah, that would have been amazing for those two to play alongside or either side of John Stones and pick up from him and learn and talk and be a sponge to what he's got. Because honestly, I think he's top three, four.
• 12:38
  Definitely no lower than five in all-time Premier League centre-arps. What was frustrating you about people disrespecting his name?
• 12:46
  Oh, the players that they were saying, well, first of all, the fact that they were saying that, you know, he doesn't deserve the plodum. And the fact that he'd been injured for a couple of years, which he had. But we looked up his stats and they said he only started five Premier League games last year. He did, but I think he played over 10, maybe closer to 15, but he was also an unused sub 19 times.
• 13:11
  So he was available. He was just not chosen. So it's funny to look at the stats in a certain way to say, to sort of disrespect people. He wasn't fit. Well, he was just not chosen. There's a difference between being available and not picked.
• 13:26
  I think it's hard as well when you're centre-half. If you miss that start of the season and two centre-backs start to get their foot in the door and they're in the team, it's hard to change that mid-season once you've up and got going. But the other thing was who he was being sort of...
• 13:45
  called alongside. People were bringing in the likes of Carl Valio from Chelsea and saying he's probably on par with him. And people were saying other things. And people were saying that Virgil van Dijk is better than him. I'm just not getting my head around anything to do with that. Slightly different in terms of van Dijk's quite a more aggressive go at the ball. But John Stone's all-round defending, passing, reading the game, being a sweeper.
• 14:11
  actually going and defending and not dropping off and hoping someone else defends for him. I just think he is one of the... I don't know if he's better than Terry in my mind in terms of what he brought. There's definitely an argument with me for Rio Ferdinand and certainly Vincent Kompany. I don't think they are...
• 14:33
  a mile away from him, if not certainly in the conversation. And people were putting him in with others. People were saying Van Dijk should be up there. Van Dijk's had a couple of seasons, maybe, where he was good. But I don't remember the players we're talking about having poor seasons and having dips like Van Dijk's had.
• 14:52
  John Stones? Yes. Van Dijk was very, very good for a period. I mean, he played for Celtic and Southampton before he went to Liverpool. And he was good for a period. Yes, absolutely. But none of the other people we're talking about had a dip.
• 15:07
  like Van Dijk's having, and yet they're saying John Stones is behind him. Just can't get my head around it. John Stones has got six Premier League titles. He's got three FA Cups, five League Cups, you know, three Community Shields. He's won the Champions League, he's won the Super Cup, and he's won the FIFA Club World Cup. Now, the only other player who's won all them competitions...
• 15:31
  is John Terry, and I'm sorry, he's missing the FIFA Club World Cup, it's very Japan Dyche, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same amount of leagues. I don't want to hear this stuff up, oh well, he says, I don't care if you're a, you're at Liverpool Football Club, mate. You're at Liverpool Football Club, and you were the most expensive defender in the world, and you were bought.
• 15:51
  Now, if that wasn't making a statement, and also you came alongside the most expensive keeper in the world when you got bought. So if that weren't a title challenge, then it should have been, and you should have been fighting for Leeds every single season. Never, ever should someone like Virgimond not be in a title-charging team. They should be challenging for titles every single time because let's just be honest, they've got one of the most expensive squads in world football. And they can't defend. Last season, they were abysmal.
• 16:21
  they could not defend. And City, with John Stones on board, and let's be honest, okay, I get his injury record and he's been injury-prone a couple of times, but ultimately, he plays a lot of games every season. He plays, you know...
• 16:39
  I was looking at the numbers in how many games that he plays and how often that he plays, and he's playing over 20 games every season, and it's not like he's just peplexed to rotate with certain players, and he has certain styles for certain games, but ultimately, he's always available. This narrative of he's always injured, that's a little bit unfair, because as he's just pointed out there, which is absolutely spot on, he was on the bench, what, nine or ten times or whatever it is,
• 17:06
  So in the grand scheme of things, there's 38 games in the season, you've played 24, 25. You know, you're probably injured for two or three. It's every player right for every single game. It's very rare you get to play every single game. I can't remember the likes outside of it, of John Terry and stuff. John Terry was there every single week. Obviously, Rio was there most weeks. But Van Dyke's missed periods through inactivity. And since he's came back from the injury, we can all quite clearly say he ain't the same player he was.
• 17:36
  I think everyone can see that.
• 17:42
  Well, he's definitely having a dip, and that's what I don't think the other top centre-halves have had. And when you're talking about others, Yapstan was incredible, but he was only in the Premier League for, what, two seasons? Maybe three? So I don't think, as good as he was, I don't think he makes an argument. Vidic potentially does. He's more the aggressor of the centre-halves, slightly different to John Stones in that sense. How hard does he play against us, Vidic?
• 18:08
  yeah I probably I'm not sure you know me I was like a fly just buzzing around his head rather than they were they were top center-offs and it's it's quite difficult to sort of
• 18:31
  Assessed. That's why you'll always have this debate across every position because it's hard to sort of define eras and say who was better in certain eras. Tony Adams at the start, from before the Premier League, during it. Incredible to go back and find others, years gone by. So it's... And you're competing against different things. Back in the day, years ago, it was two centre-forwards up against two centre-halves. The centre-halves had to not only defend 1v1, but also being a...
• 19:00
  being a unit of a back four and not allow spaces, they had to do it all. In the last 10 years, maybe even 15 years, it's been one striker, probably a bit more actually, maybe the last 20 years, it's been one striker. So two centre-halves have been able to find it a bit easier. One goes tight, one's a bit of a sweeper. So it's hard to sort of... And they have to pick up runners coming from deep. They have to see different challenges. They have to see the pitch a bit more. So it's hard to get against it all.
• 19:27
  But John Stones has to be in the argument for top five. Anything lower than that, I'm just not getting my head around. And people will say, I heard an argument the other day that, well, all these trophies that he's won, and by the way, he's won the most, I think, of any centre-half. Yeah, he's won 18. I think, Ted, he's on 17. So he's won the most of any centre-half English football scene or the Premier League scene in the modern era.
• 19:54
  And people are saying, yeah, but he was never competing for player of the season for Man City, whereas John Terry might have done and all these other people might have done. But that's style of football. That is, you know, City play dominant possession football, where they're always giving it to the good players who can go and do it in stones and those defenders are there to keep the possession and be critical in their moments. But the City style of play affected the thing, which...
• 20:21
  Chelsea, for instance, were very pragmatic. They would literally go at your own. Or they'll defend a lot, and John Terry's asked to defend a lot and does get trophies that way. So I couldn't see how that argument was completely relevant in terms of, well, he didn't compete for player of the season each time. He was just a passenger. I'm just laughing that one out the window. That's just not a thing at all. I mean, I do still think Terry's probably...
• 20:51
  Arguably the best. Rio is right up there. I was going to say pick two. That's it. Pick two. Listen, without a shadow of a doubt, Joran Dyke's an amazing defender. He's an amazing player. I'm not saying he's not. He's absolutely fantastic. What you're talking about...
• 21:07
  the highest and best defender in the Premier League scene. No, I still think he's a very good player. He's judgment of the game. He controls the absolutely... Well, look, he can bounce back this year, but I think last year he was causing Liverpool more problems than he was solving. Maybe that's the style that the manager was asking to play. Is that more down to Canate than it is Van Dijkers?
• 21:27
  every time I've seen it wasn't from what I've seen can I tell him there are a lot more mistakes than Bandai yeah but not from the evidence I was seeing but that might be down to how the manager is asking them to play drop off do this do that and the other but he had a I think it's a down two seasons now I think he's had two particularly poor seasons and if he bounces back this season brilliant as good as stones he is and I think he's been amazing
• 21:50
  absolutely fantastic I'd still have Rio and Rio and John Terry as well yeah I'd agree with that and I struggle to split them too because they're just I mean freaky talent and you look at the players they were coming up against week in week out
• 22:09
  monsters, animals in Europe, whether it was Europe, whether it was, made animals of the highest order. I mean, Rio Ferdinand came up against our nine. John Terry's coming up against our two. You keep going back to that. That's tipping it for you, isn't it? Yeah, that's tipping it for you. Look, I rate Rio Ferdinand so, so high. I'll be honest, if I had to pick between them two,
• 22:30
  I probably I probably I just think he was the proper like he was the when they talk about World's Royce defenders he was the first one English one I've seen John Terry if you're going for a 50-50 I'm putting John Terry in every day of the week 50-50 just purely defending I'm picking John Terry because John Terry was a colossal defender and an absolute animal
• 22:56
  of the highest order. But when you're talking about modern-day football and players that I want to play now, I'm taking Rio Ferdinand because Rio Ferdinand's the complete footballer. I'm not... That's not taking anyone away from John Terry because he really lost the ball, but it's just what Rio was doing. Do you know what I mean? Rio was running into midfield and helping change games and stuff like that, which was, at the time, you probably hadn't seen that where people will argue and go, oh, Lansom was doing that years ago because there's more cop heights throwing a bit of...
• 23:24
  wood on the fire but ultimately Rio Ferdinand for me was he's the Rolls Royce look I couldn't argue if those two centre-halves were said and presented and said you know this is what you've got and they're the top and whatever but for me I think John Stones I would pick John Stones and ahead of who was which one are you dropping ahead of Rio yeah
• 23:48
  I really would. And I'd probably pick Sylvain Distane ahead of John Teddy. Just to make it all top and back to him. I mean, now we're talking about Sylvain. I mean, Sylvain's my captain. He starts. Do you know what I mean? He's in the Premier League. He's in the all-time 11. There's not even disputing that. So, Sylvain, you're in. I'll get Jolien Lescott texting me now after this. You best be joking. I will. I'm sorry joking.
• 24:16
  No, that was just a bit of fun, you know. But John Stone's getting my two for me. Wow. Yeah, that is a big call. Yeah. I think you're totally right. Top five. Oh, well, that was a shadow of a doubt. Trophies. I mean, trophies. Jesus. It's big. Yeah. He's top four. He's top four. Yeah.
• 24:37
  He's top four. I think the manager let England down this year. There's not four-back defence in the UK. I think the manager let England down this year. Imagine he added the World Cup to his CV, and he could or should have. Why are you bringing him up? I don't want to speak about England. I know, yeah. He's all thought this, isn't he? Just don't bring him up. I think of the amount of tournaments he's got to the last stages. He's played in finals and semi-finals. None of the others were talking about, manager. Yeah.
• 25:02
  I get, is there a potential argument that he's in it, he's moved into City at their best point ever? Like Vincent Kompany before that was sort of in the building stages. But is the argument, Liam, that they became so good on his watch? Are you whispering?
• 25:21
  I'm not whispering. Why are you whispering? You're getting further and further away from the mic, you. I will piss off you. So, is it fair to say that City got so good because they had John Stones there? He was the missing piece of the puzzle? Because he's got every right to say that because winning them leagues, you know, it's just, in the years that he won them, it's just madness. I mean, you look at the years he's won,
• 25:51
  27, 2018, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2021, 2022. It made it five years, four or five years, just constantly winning. And he was playing. The flip of that is, well, firstly, to talk about company. Yes, company came in. City were already serial winners. They were winning trophies at that point. But, yeah...
• 26:13
  Someone's got to come in and set the base and the foundations and company certainly did that and propelled them forward to getting the better signings in. And he maybe reaped the rewards of that. His timing of career is always important. But you've just said, did he come in at the right time? Let's flip it back to Virgil van Dijk. I'd say Virgil van Dijk came into Liverpool at a brilliant time. He was part of Liverpool's best team that they've seen for many a years, probably since the 90s. And yet...
• 26:40
  80s. You know, he's... Since the... Yeah, 80s or 90s. Yeah, probably 80s. I beg your pardon. And have they had as much success as Stones? Well, they've managed to win their second Premier League now. Congratulations. They've managed to win a couple of trophies. But City have been serial. The first one doesn't count. Stones has been a serial winner. The first one doesn't count. No one was there now. No one was there. No one was there.
• 27:03
  No one was there. Just wanted to really say it. No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't count. Carragher clearly said to me that, you know, his response to me was on one of these podcasts was, yeah, Everton have never won at Anfield. I said, well, they did win at Anfield. They won in the COVID. And he went to me, no, that doesn't count. No one was there. And I said, okay, but let's just take away your leaks. No one was there for that.
• 27:23
  I'm just going by his you know I played him on his own game well said Tony so you know you've got to get a round of applause every single time it's true that'll stick with me forever than one league title one league title
• 27:38
  Well, we've had a chat about Stones and, you know, as we said, we're unhappy that we missed out on him. Are we going to get Jack Grealish over the line and how important is it that we do? I hope we do, but it doesn't look like, does it? Doesn't look good. Oz, what are we thinking? Is it? I thought he had more to say than that. He's shaming in a Man City kit. There he is. There he is. I can hear him now.
• 28:03
  I'm not happy. He's training in a Man City kit, and I'm not happy. I mean, it's just not fair. Well, he has to train in a City kit. He do have to train in a City kit. He's at City, so he's training in that kit. No, he should have just turned up in his Everton kit and just went, listen, lads, I don't want to be here. This is not sitting right with me. You know, where's the failure? What am I here for? And I just said to City every day, just pick me up from Finch Farm.
• 28:28
  I'll be at the end if you want, but pick me up from Finch Farm. Pick us up from Finch Farm in my heaven kit. You know. I don't go to that. We need him back. It's not over yet, is it? But how important is it? If we miss out on him, are we in trouble?
• 28:43
  I think what's happening with Njai will determine how important missing out on him will be. If we start the season and there's a lot of rumours that Njai's not going to be here and that the foot move's getting forced away, wherever it might be, if that happens...
• 29:02
  and we start the season without him or Jack Grealish, that'll be a huge hole. That's dangerous. That's a worry because last year we had them both. This year you've got neither and at the minute we've got no replacements. And you're missing Garner, those.
• 29:19
  Yeah, and I can only see, well, Garner Gay's left, Jimmy Garner's not fit. I can only see Grealish kind of getting done if Njai leaves, though. That might not be the case, but when you're looking at money... Jimmy Garner's not fit? It was Jimmy Garner not fit. What's happened there? He picked up an injury. Yeah, he had... Was it a groin injury or a... He had a little mini operation, start pre-season. He should be back from the start of the season.
• 29:47
  Go on, you keep her on top of the page as well. Why are you doing this to me? It just makes me feel worse now. Oh, do you know what? I think making him go squeaky is one of the best things that I will do on this pod.
• 30:04
  I can't believe Jimmy's injured. I can't believe Jimmy's got an injury. He should be back for the start of the season. I know, Lee, but he's not going to be 100% fit for the start of the season, and that's worrying, because he is one of the most important cogs in our team. He is part of the engine. He is so important to the team. He is so important to how we play. He's so versatile. He can play in any of the positions that he's asked.
• 30:34
  Jimmy Garner was probably the most versatile player in the whole of the Premier League last season. I don't think there'll be a player who'd have played in more positions than Jimmy Garner. He played in every single position across the midfield. And he probably played in every single position across the defence. It was probably a time when he got asked to go and sit at centre-back because he was trying to score from a corner at times. So he played every single position. That's goal, keep it on up front.
• 30:57
  He's just, he's so based out, he's so important, he's a brilliant, brilliant player who's now coming into his own. And believe you me, when you're Everton Football Club and you're in the positions that we're in, we need him week in, week out. And we need him at not like 70, 80, we need him at 100%. So that's really concerning and worrying for me. It is. Go on, go on Oz. I was going to say, it is, but...
• 31:23
  And I'd rather it was fit through pre-season because I can trust if he gets a pre-season when the games start and we demand he plays pretty much every minute, his body will be accustomed to it. He'll have prepared for it. He'll be ready. He'll have trained. That's what pre-season gets you to do. So we're going to have to manage him when he comes back in terms of...
• 31:41
  building him up to make sure his body's ready. The good thing he's got on his side is youth, because we all remember what our bodies felt like when we were young. Still early 20s, isn't he? 24? Yeah, I think he's like 24, 25. He's still early 20s, so he should be able to manage it. But the other thing that can help the team is...
• 31:59
  There's a lot of other people getting minutes now, that might not have got as many minutes. Alcaraz will get more minutes. Roald, although he's playing on the right at the minute to cover, might get a few more minutes in the centre. Hackney will start to build into the central role because with Garner not there, with Adrissa Gay not there, suddenly pre-season's bringing real opportunity for other people to get a run of games, get their fitness up and then...
• 32:24
  They'll be ready when the season starts, which should, could be a good thing. I think you'll see record-breaking seasons from Keenan Dewsby or Jimmy Garner, and I think this Hackney kid will hit the floor runner.
• 32:39
  What kind of record-breaking? We're not talking like 10 on goals each and that. I'm talking you'll see more assistant goals from Keenan Dewsbury than he's ever done before. You've got to have people to pass to, though. You can't assist. Trust me, you'll find them. That kid's got it. And I also think...
• 32:59
  Jimmy Garner will hit his best numbers all over the place, whether it be assists, goals, whatever, he will hit his best numbers. So I think there'll be... When I say record-breaking season, I'm talking numbers that they've got at Everton last season to this season. They'll be breaking records for themselves, Premier League records that they've... I think the path their careers are on and the form that they're on, I think they're ready to, yeah, but...
• 33:19
  I think that all depends on signings we make or people we keep because you can only get assists if people are getting on the end of things. You can only play through balls if people are making good runs. It doesn't matter how good a creator you are if people are either missing chances or no one's prepared to make a forward run. If 10 players are behind you, you're not going to get an assist. That's not just a baby smile. Yeah.
• 33:44
  so I get that Oz but ultimately there's going to be a lot more responsibility and I'm going around the block here to get to the point my point is it's going to be a lot more responsibility on them boys this year and I think they'll live up to the potential I think they'll live up to the task I think they'll they'll take it on board and they'll grab the scruff of the neck and just go I'm having this and I can see that in them I just think the two of them are really good bright players
• 34:09
  You've got to understand Everton are going through a massive transition this season. You're losing a stalwart in Seamus Coleman, someone who's around them boys every single day, a proper leader of men and an absolute darnd of a lad. He's Everton Football Club through and through. He's gone. He's no longer in the building.
• 34:25
  and I think that'll have an effect on a few but there's going to be players like James Tarkowski who's being asked to fill the role of certain things that maybe Seamus was doing and he'll do that because Tarki's a leader through and through and he's a brilliant example to the younger lads but then you've also got to take on board the likes of Jarrett Brantwaite and...
• 34:46
  Jake O'Brien, they're going to want to start. And lads, Jake O'Brien's not a right back. He's never been a right back. But he's played there to help out the team and do a great job. And he's done a brilliant job at times. But everyone's going to be fighting now for certain spots. You've got four centre-halves who are all good centre-halves and capable of doing a good job.
• 35:03
  So I just think Everton's going through a little bit of a transition period, but ultimately they've got the right man in charge, in my opinion, and he'll get it right, but it's going to take a little bit of time to figure that formula out. I still think he's under huge pressure if we don't get a good right-back. I think whatever happens across the pitch and Jai leaving and things going...
• 35:30
  Right or wrong, I think hopefully we sign enough for the top end of the pitch, but if we don't get a right back... Has Wampus gone anywhere, yeah? No, I don't think so. The pressure is going to be mounting because people are going to know that's a place that we should strengthen. And I wonder at times whether, is that a David Moyes issue? Is that above? Is that...
• 35:53
  you know, higher than his job to go out and sign a right-backer in the modern world. If you can see it, in the modern world, it is. If you can see it, then everybody else can see it. If you're making that known, I'm just saying... If I can see it, then everyone must be able to see it. Which I say, Tom.
• 36:08
  I'll be coming over there and leaving one on your chin if you carry on someone on your own size with you little midget I'm just saying leave it alone stop giving people my locations you're going to have to take this out in the edit you silly guy we didn't say where you were I'm in your garden
• 36:25
  So what I'm saying is, what Ozzy's saying is absolutely spot on, but everybody's been saying that all of last season, so it's nothing new, we all knew we needed a right back last season, and I feel for Pato, who's at the club, but it's quite clear.
• 36:44
  the manager's not having him for whatever reason. I'm not having him either. So you've got to, quite simply, I've got to go out and go, the people who are running the club have got to go, right, he's quite clearly shown us, he's telling us by who he's picking to play the game, he needs a right-back. He's playing a centre-half right-back. It's not rocket science, so they've got to back him. They have to find the right-back. And the fact that he haven't up to now is a little bit concerning.
• 37:12
  The club have got to go out there and go and get him, the right-back that he wants. I don't know. I say Juan Passaccia because I thought he was good in the World Cup, not going to lie. I thought he played decent in some games. He did. They're not easy to find, but I want to find a full-back that is good on the ball.
• 37:34
  And I'm not sure Wan-Bissaka fits that bill for me. I'm not 100%, although I'd still definitely take him. Definitely. I'm not 100% Jed Spencer's that guy who's... Ours don't start me off, come on. Who's great on... Well, I'm thinking of...
• 37:51
  in my mind, for the full-back to make us better, to progress us so we can use the right side of the pitch, one-twos, get crosses in, but still have to defend. And by the way, these aren't easy to find. But someone who's as good as Jimmy Garner is in possession of the ball at right-back, but defends...
• 38:07
  like a proper right-back, could and should. And I don't know if Wan-Bissaka fits that, Bill. I think we've got to go find a hidden gem somewhere. And they are out there. Bournemouth proves that all the time, that these players are... Yeah, true. If your scouting network's good, these players are out there. But that's where I need. We need somebody that offers real...
• 38:30
  Real drive down the right-hand side and real sort of flexibility. Someone that can give us real options down that right-hand side. And I don't think Wan-Bissaka does that. Don't think he does it for West Ham. So that's not someone, although we're all saying right back, yeah. But we might as well play Jake O'Brien. He gives us that right back, the same as Wan-Bissaka. So we need someone with real...
• 38:53
  real purpose of that and that right. How does it feel as a player being played out of position? You'd have been best asking me, what does it feel like being played in position? No, but you know what I mean? I don't know. I can't tell you what it feels like to be played out of position. So I'm just thinking, when Jake O'Brien's getting picked and you can clearly see, you know, he's not a right back and they're going, Jake, go and play there. Does that give him...
• 39:22
  It's not in conference because the manager goes, yeah, go on, lad, you do a job to me. First of all, you want to play. You want to play every week. You want to be in that starting 11. You'd probably play centre-forward. As Jacob Anagol play, I'd set it forward, giving him the opportunity just so that he's playing. And your skill set isn't necessarily suited to it, but you'd still rather play than not play. The other thing is, so it's good that the manager wants you to, but the manager can only do it if...
• 39:51
  if you're a good character in terms of, he knows you're playing out position. He knows it's not your actual proper skillset, but he knows the hunger and that you'll give it your all and you won't moan and you won't be like, well, it's no wonder I'm not playing well because I'm not even supposed to play here and throw your tools, you've done me out the pram and all that when you're not there. You've got to still give it your all. And me, I found that I learned
• 40:17
  how to play the positions where you talked earlier. I learned on the job how to play these positions. My mind was open to how I helped the team get results. I wanted to play central midfield. I came in, I was playing right midfield, left midfield, number 10, holder midfield. I played right back for 20 minutes in a game. I think we conceded three, but you never did that again. I never, by the way. It was only one. But anyway, yeah, so picking up and keeping your mind open to play these positions.
• 40:47
  I was doing more work than I wanted to. And I wanted to be on the ball a lot more. I just wanted, like everyone else, to just give me the ball. Let me go pass and dribble and run forward. But in a David Moyes team and in a Colin Harvey team, which is where I got my foundation for really being an Everton player,
• 41:03
  you have to work harder out of possession and earn your spot in the first team and show the manager that you're prepared to do anything to win games. So, yeah, that'll be what Jake O'Brien's doing. He wants to play. It's not his specialist position. He knows it. He's not as comfortable, but he'll go there and give it his all and not whinge about it and take the criticism that comes with playing well or not playing well in that position because he's a good character. And that's kind of our...
• 41:30
  Our team is set up and a team is formed because you end up with a lot of players. I'll bet you're in that squad. Look, Illum and I last year, Illum wants to play off the left. Jack Grealish comes in, Illum goes over to the right, still playing, not ideal for him, although he has to do that for his country as well. He'd rather play off the left, but he's now finding a way of being productive on that right-hand side. So players will do what they can to be in the team and try to be part of the team. And just, if you're a good character, you don't moan about it.
• 41:59
  So you don't feel it's damaging on the actual... I mean, Jake O'Brien, it's quite clear, can defend really. Very few have legged them or got past them this season. He's been very good. But it's in that final third where you need that ball whipped in and crossed over. And we're in a game now where it's so common for your right back and your right back to go racing up the pitch and they're expected to deliver crosses into the box.
• 42:23
  and especially with the forward line we have with Beto and Barry, two big, tall lads who are supposed to attack crosses, but it's just not... So he's come under scrutiny and criticism, and that's hard for a player to take on board when you know he's not that position. Yeah, the thing with Jake is, and the argument could be that the managers, or the style of play is asking him not to, Jake gets into these positions occasionally,
• 42:51
  and down the right-hand side. And he'll make a mistake by poor cross or poor pass in that advanced position, maybe get exposed and then...
• 42:58
  you won't necessarily see him as advanced next time because I think he doesn't want to make the same mistake again and he'll tuck back in and he'll basically stay on the halfway line alongside the two centre-halves. And then we've got nothing on the right. And whether that's the manager saying, well, I'll tell you what, Jake, just stay in your slot. Or Jake's now going, well, I don't want to keep getting up there because I keep embarrassing myself. I keep doing things that I know I can't do. So I'll stay in my right-back spot and not get in trouble. So one of those two could happen. But...
• 43:28
  I'll tell you, Seamus Coleman, who we all say and think, arguably Everton's best left back, sorry, right back in the Premier League, certainly one of the best players I've ever had, his cross wasn't that good. Honestly, I'm telling you, Seamus will probably be okay talking about this himself. He'd get into that perfect position on the right-hand side and three out of four times, his cross might come off his heel or he'd hit the front post or...
• 43:53
  wherever it was, and the move might break down. But what Sheamus had, which was top tier, he kept on getting in that position. He kept on giving himself the opportunity. He kept on exposing himself into, well, I'm going to try again. I'm going to try again. I'm going to get in here and I'm going to try again. And because he tried so many times, he eventually got your assists. He eventually got your goals. He eventually got your oldest production. Wow.
• 44:18
  But he had an awful lot of failures. The same with David Beckham. If you go back and watch a David Beckham game, he had some unbelievable moments. But he tried and failed quite a lot. And these players and the mindset to keep on getting into these positions where they might be... Trent Alexander-Arnold's the same. But they get into the position where they might provide a moment of magic, but they'll also... They might fail quite a lot, but the magic is going to be worth it. Jake O'Brien got into the habit.
• 44:45
  of exposing himself, getting it wrong, and then sort of filtering back into halfway line. And then we had nothing down the right-hand side. So we were seeing poor play and then nothing down the right-hand side, which was completely the opposite of what James gave us.
• 44:59
  He had a willingness and an eagerness to just keep pushing Sheamus. And that doesn't go through all players. That just doesn't, you know, that's hard to find, to be honest. I was going to say to you both that I'm a little bit nervous around the lack of experience and maybe players with real hunger and desire in the squad. I sort of see Coleman as being one of them.
• 45:26
  I saw Garnagay as one of those characters who just was relentless and continued to... I know he didn't have his best season at the back end of last season, but I did see him as that. And then I actually think Jack Grealish, an experienced player who's been at the highest level of the game, that's three massive individuals there who we've lost and haven't really replaced. What do we think about that? Do we need to bring in those type of players? Go on, I don't know more about that than you.
• 45:55
  I think we need experience. I think we need more voices in there. I think losing a Drissa is huge because you look around, I remember it being my stage of the career as well and,
• 46:11
  You look around and whether you go out and play well or you go play bad, you look across to the guy to the left who's done it all before, or the guy to the right with you who's got a nice, calming voice. And you just feel a little bit of protection between yourself and any criticism or between even yourself and the manager or yourself and the fans. There's a barrier of, I can still try things because I'm not exposed to it.
• 46:35
  They'll protect me. And they're gone now. So it's going to be an awakening for some of these other players. You're gone as you're Keane and Drewsby Halls. They're now having direct contact. They're going to have to stand up for themselves to the manager. They're going to have to stand up to the fans, to interviews. They're going to have to start doing, be in all that barrier. And Idrissa is going to be a big loss, I think,
• 47:00
  I think he's one of the best signers we've made definitely since I left. And I left in 2016. He's so important. For all the people that we signed, because as I left that summer, or maybe the summer after, maybe it was, but I think that summer, we got all the money, didn't we? We got the new owners, the new owners, Moshiri's Millions,
• 47:26
  and spent it on 10 players in one position. For all of that, for all of the signers we made from that moment till now, and there have been some good ones, Idris has got to be right up there. For what, 7 million? 7 million, yeah. We bought him from Aston Villa. The only person who's better. The only person who's better is Romelu.
• 47:48
  Well, no, we signed up Ron when I was there. So I played with Romelu for three years. Yeah, I played with Ron for three years. He's the only best to sign an icing. We went and played Aston Villa in...
• 48:03
  In my last season, and we beat them 3-1, and Villa got relegated, and Idrissa stood out. Even though we beat them comfortably at Villa Park, he stood out massively. What was it? And we came away from that, and I came away thinking, we need to go get him. And actually, for once, we did. It was great that we went and got him, and he was worth every penny of those seven. Those seven million pennies were very well worth it.
• 48:30
  two stints at the club wants it to come back loves us quiet guy not outspoken but gets us and I think he's had a great Everton career and I wish him well he's got a proper winning mentality listen you don't go to the likes of PSG if you don't have a winning mentality and you don't get them moves but on the pitch ferocious always faves to be in for the tackle always want to win the ball
• 48:53
  Happy to always play forward as well, always brave on the ball. I just feel in football now, you've got a lot of players who are passengers, passing sideways all the time, not taking a ball on, not being brave enough to go and say, I want to be the difference.
• 49:09
  You know when I see kids play at the academy, and I haven't got a clue, but I'll say to them, be brave, want the ball, want the ball, be brave. And I think that's a big thing for kids, because you see a lot of kids want to get on the ball, and nowadays it's just, football is so statistically driven. It's everything's about stats, and how many passes have you made? Well, I'd rather have a kid who makes, you've got one kid who goes, right, I've made 30 passes, and I've made 30 completed passes.
• 49:38
  And then there's another kid and he goes, right, I've made 20 passes and 15 have been completed, five have failed. But the 15 passes that I made were all forward. I'll take that kid every single time. They're all the kid who's made 30 correct passes just going sideways. I'm not saying that, you know, you need them players sometimes from teams. But ultimately, we need players that are going to affect and change games. And you ain't changing games by passing sideways. I'm sorry. You need to be passing them all forward. You need to be brave. You need to take it on.
• 50:08
  And Idrissa Garnagay was one of them players, and as Ozzy said before, when you play against players, I can imagine, that's when you see what they're really made of, that's when you realise how good they are. And if he's played against them, we beat them 3-1, how are you standing out in a 3-1 loss? That tells you all you need to know about Idrissa Garnagay.
• 50:24
  Because he was up against me. That's why. Jesus, Tom. It was obvious, wasn't it? You were absolutely fantastic. No, I didn't play that. I was on the bench that game. I'm just saying, you were that player who wanted to play forward with us. You didn't always want to pass sideways. You wanted to go and attack. No, I hated sideways. And yes, you'd lose the ball, yes, but ultimately you could be the difference. That pass going forward is the one that, through the eye of a needle, that can change a game.
• 50:52
  And like I said, there's players who, I'm not going to name them, but there's loads of players who people rave on statistically and say he's great, he's this, but you're describing the sideways passing player who's safe every single time. And it's just, it's so overlooked in football, players who are brave. And like I said, Illiman and Jai is another one. He's brave. Yeah, he might lose you a few balls in a game, but I'll tell you what, mate, you'll create you a lot more than you'll lose you. And I think these kind of players who,
• 51:20
  were reported to be losing or are losing, it's a worrying time. It really, really is. Keeney Jupio, a class image, one of them brave players. Do we keep him? I'm not saying do we want to. We obviously want to. What kind of price do we need? If he's going to go, what kind of price are we accepting? It can't be a penny. It can't be a penny less than 60, 70 million.
• 51:39
  Oh, I would go 80. I don't even think I'd sell him for 80. I just don't see who we'd get in to give us the policy that we need. Ultimately, I think he's got two or three years left on his contract. It's a tough one, but once again, I'd be quite adamant on this. Can't keep a player who doesn't want to be there. And that's the top and bottom of it.
• 52:02
  And he does seem to love Everton, but you can't keep... And also, I think this is the peak of his value ever. So say we're going to sell him in a year, we might only get 55. Whereas this year, we might get 80. And if you can go and then invest that on a couple of players. But you have to, as you say, you have to...
• 52:23
  Whatever happens, Everton cannot leave that till the last minute and then try and scramble a couple of players on the transfer deadline. This is what I'm nervous about. If it's going to get done, we have to do it as early as possible to give ourselves opportunity to go and get other people. And in a perfect way... Who's that on us?
• 52:43
  Oh, I don't know. Oh, the hierarchy really. But in a perfect world, though, we'd actually go and buy our replacements before we actually sell him because we'll probably get them for cheaper if we can do that because we won't have the cash available that other clubs say, well, you've just sold him for that so we'll take him for that.
• 53:05
  Because the club is being run properly now, it's not being run like a fantasy football team, like it was for a good 10 years, where fellas are making decisions and speaking to managers on who they think should play, absolutely ridiculous, absolute psychopaths that have run the club for a decade. It's lunacy of the highest order.
• 53:25
  I guess we'll have to judge them after the window, though, because at the moment, I haven't seen enough of it. They're spendingly. I know, but they're spending. And they're spending wisely. They're not spending stupidly. They're spending wisely on youngsters, which I'm not a bit... Like, my big thing is, just back the manager.
• 53:43
  I'm a big believer in when you get a manager to take control of a football club, let the manager take control. I'm sick of all these clubs. It's not really the way things are done these days. I know, but it doesn't mean it's right. The best people in the Premier League history have been managers, not coaches. We haven't seen a top-level coach run the game. We've seen managers run the game.
• 54:10
  So Michael Arteta is a football manager. You know he's got control top to bottom of that football club. Pep Guardiola, the greatest manager of our era in the Premier League. A manager. Alex Fakeson, the greatest manager of the world. I've seen a manager. This coach role thing is nonsense. I'm not having it.
• 54:27
  because who does the sword drop on us? If you've got a coach... Well, Nick Cox is the sort of technical director at the minute, is he? And James Smith's head of scouting and recruitment and things like that. I thought it was Angus who's head of football. Who? Angus. Yeah, I suppose he's head of sort of everything. I don't know. Yeah, maybe it is Angus that does it. But these players are in there. Sorry, these people are in there.
• 54:58
  And they've got other jobs as well. But surely they're spending a lot of time recruiting and they come to David Moyes with the targets that they identify. I don't know how modern day...
• 55:09
  works i know when i was in the building david moyes pretty much did everything just recruitment the scouting go watch players surely oz he would want the responsibility and go listen and let me do it my way and if i fall on your shoulder fall on your shoulder i'll go but don't let me half do a job and then go i can do this and i can't do that because then i'm not really in control does that make sense like if you're the manager you should be in control
• 55:35
  Yeah, and I think the worry is that quite often you likely look