Latest / Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge / Legally Brunette: Lizzie Borden

Transcript

Legally Brunette: Lizzie Borden · Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

0:01
Speaker 1: Hi guys, welcome to Legally Brunette. I'll be your host today,
0:04
Speaker 1: Emily Simpson with.
0:06
Speaker 2: Shane.
0:07
Speaker 1: Okay, today we are going to get into the case
0:10
Speaker 1: of Lizzie Borden. And I wanted to do this case
0:13
Speaker 1: because it had come up, you know, recently in the
0:16
Speaker 1: news because there's that new installment of Monsters on Netflix.
0:20
Speaker 1: And so there is the interpretation or adaptation of the
0:24
Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden case. However, I did not watch the Monsters episode.
0:28
Speaker 1: I didn't want to watch it. because I wanted to
0:31
Speaker 1: actually dive into this case and make this episode as
0:36
Speaker 1: historically accurate as possible based upon what information I could find.
0:39
Speaker 2: Okay. So. Are you bashing monsters and saying they don't
0:45
Speaker 2: know what they're doing?
0:46
Speaker 1: Well, I'm saying the feedback that I have read about
0:49
Speaker 1: or seen is that it's not really an interpretation of
0:53
Speaker 1: the facts. It's more of his artistic interpretation. Okay.
0:59
Speaker 2: A storytelling kind of night. A storytelling.
1:03
Speaker 1: He's a storyteller. So I would say, please feel free
1:06
Speaker 1: to watch the monster version.
1:07
Speaker 2: Still entertaining. Did you watch it?
1:08
Speaker 1: No, I did not watch it.
1:09
Speaker 2: Oh.
1:10
Speaker 1: I didn't want to watch it because I wanted to
1:13
Speaker 1: research this case as much as possible before talking about
1:16
Speaker 1: it today by going back and actually looking at the trial,
1:20
Speaker 1: the transcripts, the historical things that I could find so
1:23
Speaker 1: that I could give an accurate, as accurate as possible
1:27
Speaker 1: Let's get into the actual Lizzie Borden case. This is
1:30
Speaker 1: an old, and this is considered a cold case because
1:34
Speaker 1: we don't know. It's 130 something years later. Oh, okay.
1:39
Speaker 2: It's a cold case. We haven't found the murderer yet?
1:42
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, exactly.
1:44
Speaker 2: She's still roaming the streets somewhere.
1:46
Speaker 1: Somewhere. On August 4th of 1892, Andrew and Abby Borden
1:50
Speaker 1: were found brutally murdered inside their Fall River, Massachusetts home.
1:54
Speaker 1: Suspicion quickly fell on Andrew's daughter, Lizzie, turning the case
1:58
Speaker 1: into one of America's most infamous unsolved mysteries. You tell
2:02
Speaker 1: me if you recognize this. You might recognize the nursery
2:05
Speaker 1: rhyme based on Lizzie Borden. Lizzie Borden took an ax
2:09
Speaker 1: and gave her mother 40 whacks. When she saw what
2:12
Speaker 1: she had done, she gave her father 41. Did you
2:15
Speaker 1: ever hear that?
2:16
Speaker 2: No, that doesn't sound like a nursery rhyme. It is.
2:18
Speaker 1: It's like a... Sounds like.
2:20
Speaker 2: A murderer's rhyme.
2:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, but.
2:22
Speaker 2: You've heard that before?
2:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, as a kid. It was like when, you know,
2:26
Speaker 1: like Red Rover. Say it again. Lizzie Borden took an
2:29
Speaker 1: ax and gave her mother 40 whacks. When she saw
2:32
Speaker 1: what she had done, she gave her father 41.
2:34
Speaker 2: And it said Lizzie Borden in the... Little nursery rhyme? Yeah.
2:40
Speaker 2: Never heard it.
2:40
Speaker 1: Have you heard about this case before?
2:42
Speaker 2: Must be a Middletown, Ohio thing.
2:44
Speaker 1: I don't think it's an Ohio thing. All right, so
2:47
Speaker 1: now we know that Netflix is revisiting the case in
2:49
Speaker 1: the fourth season of Ryan Murphy and Ian Brennan's true
2:52
Speaker 1: crime anthology, Monster, the Lizzie Borden story. It stars Ella
2:56
Speaker 1: Beatty as Lizzie. You know Ella Beatty is... Oh, they
2:59
Speaker 1: have actors in it? Well, who would they have in it?
3:02
Speaker 2: Well, it could be like... Well, it doesn't have to
3:04
Speaker 2: be an act. Like, I didn't know it was... produced
3:07
Speaker 2: in such a way where it's like a scripted show
3:09
Speaker 2: i thought maybe it was a documentary or something no.
3:12
Speaker 1: It's the the monsters you know the remember we did
3:15
Speaker 1: they did the lyle and mendez remember yeah.
3:18
Speaker 2: But i don't i don't watch a show called monsters
3:21
Speaker 2: they did the jeffrey dahmer one i didn't.
3:24
Speaker 1: Watch the ed gain one anyway all.
3:27
Speaker 2: Right okay so okay so it's a series with acting
3:30
Speaker 2: yeah okay that's what that makes sense and why it's
3:32
Speaker 2: not 100 accurate.
3:34
Speaker 1: Right, it's a dramatization.
3:37
Speaker 2: Okay, very good.
3:38
Speaker 1: Right, and it stars Ella Beatty as Lizzie. It dramatizes
3:41
Speaker 1: the family tensions, investigation, and trial that made Borden a
3:44
Speaker 1: household name.
3:45
Speaker 2: Who's that actress? Do we know her?
3:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's Warren Beatty's daughter.
3:48
Speaker 2: Oh, okay. I didn't know he had a daughter. I
3:50
Speaker 2: don't know anything about his family.
3:51
Speaker 1: You clearly don't.
3:52
Speaker 2: His offspring. Okay.
3:54
Speaker 1: All right, let's get into some background on Lizzie Borden.
3:56
Speaker 1: So Lizzie... Andrew Borden was born on July 19th of
4:00
Speaker 1: 1860 in Fall River, Massachusetts. By the way, I just
4:03
Speaker 1: want to point out that the home that she grew
4:05
Speaker 1: up in still exists. It is in Fall River, Massachusetts.
4:08
Speaker 1: I would like to add it to our Someday Legally
4:11
Speaker 1: Brunette tour.
4:12
Speaker 2: I like how you had to say it's still in
4:15
Speaker 2: the same place.
4:16
Speaker 1: It's still in the same place.
4:18
Speaker 2: It was not relocated. No.
4:20
Speaker 1: And it is currently a bed and breakfast place. And
4:23
Speaker 1: museum slash museum.
4:25
Speaker 2: So it's marketed as Lizzie Borden's home. Yes.
4:28
Speaker 1: And you can stay there. And the parlor where.
4:30
Speaker 2: The- You can stay there.
4:32
Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to stay there.
4:33
Speaker 2: I'll stay somewhere else. I thought you wanted it on
4:35
Speaker 2: your tour.
4:36
Speaker 1: Yes, but I would visit it during the day and
4:38
Speaker 1: have coffee and walk around. I would not stay. You
4:40
Speaker 1: can stay the night in the room where the stepmother
4:43
Speaker 1: was murdered. No, thank you. Absolutely not.
4:47
Speaker 2: So you like true crime, but not that much.
4:48
Speaker 1: Not that much.
4:49
Speaker 2: No.
4:50
Speaker 1: All right. So she lived with her older sister, Emma.
4:52
Speaker 1: Her father was Andrew and her stepmother, Abby. And there
4:56
Speaker 1: was the family's live-in maid, Bridget Sullivan, who they referred
5:00
Speaker 1: to as Maggie. They called her Maggie.
5:03
Speaker 2: Bridget. Yeah. Maggie, short for Bridget.
5:06
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I was like, why did they call
5:07
Speaker 1: her Maggie? And then I read that the previous maid
5:10
Speaker 1: had been named Maggie. So it's like, oh, so they
5:13
Speaker 1: just keep calling the maids Maggie. I mean, that's, I
5:15
Speaker 1: don't know. That's kind of rude. Andrew Borden was a
5:18
Speaker 1: successful businessman and property owner, but the family lived more
5:22
Speaker 1: modestly than many other wealthy families in Fall River. Tension
5:25
Speaker 1: reportedly existed within the household, particularly over Andrew's money and property. However,
5:31
Speaker 1: the exact nature of the family's private relationships remains disputed.
5:36
Speaker 1: So from what I understand through the research I did,
5:39
Speaker 1: He has two daughters, Lizzie and Emma. They both live
5:42
Speaker 1: in the house. Lizzie's like 32 or something at the time,
5:44
Speaker 1: and her sister's like in her 40s. But when this
5:47
Speaker 1: murder takes place, this double homicide, the older sister is
5:51
Speaker 1: out of town visiting a friend.
5:53
Speaker 2: Okay, so she's cleared.
5:54
Speaker 1: She's gone. Lizzie is home. I read through all this
5:58
Speaker 1: research that I was doing that there was a lot
6:00
Speaker 1: of tension in the home because Lizzie and her older sister, Emma,
6:04
Speaker 1: were mad at their father because he was a very
6:06
Speaker 1: wealthy businessman, but he had them live more modestly. I
6:10
Speaker 1: don't think there was indoor plumbing in their home. So
6:13
Speaker 1: they wanted to live in like the fancier, nicer part
6:16
Speaker 1: of town because he could afford it.
6:18
Speaker 2: They wanted a toilet.
6:18
Speaker 1: They wanted a toilet, but he didn't let them. But
6:21
Speaker 1: he would go out and look at all his properties.
6:23
Speaker 1: And so I just picture these older sisters who aren't
6:27
Speaker 1: married and don't have children living in this home off
6:30
Speaker 1: of their dad with a stepmom. And then they're mad
6:34
Speaker 1: that they don't have like a more prestigious, wealthy lifestyle.
6:38
Speaker 1: So they're irritated at him. They're also very irritated by
6:41
Speaker 1: the fact that he has a home. They refer to
6:44
Speaker 1: it as like grandmother's home. So I assume it's like
6:46
Speaker 1: a family home in this Borden family. And he deeds
6:51
Speaker 1: the house over to his wife.
6:55
Speaker 2: Not their mother.
6:56
Speaker 1: Not their mother. Their mother died when I believe Lizzie
6:58
Speaker 1: was young, like two or something like that.
7:00
Speaker 2: Okay.
7:00
Speaker 1: So Abby's been their stepmother for many years, but the
7:03
Speaker 1: father ends up giving her sister, so Abby's sister, some
7:09
Speaker 1: property that belonged in the Borden family.
7:12
Speaker 2: Oh, their step-aunt.
7:13
Speaker 1: Step, yes.
7:14
Speaker 2: If that's such a thing.
7:15
Speaker 1: And it's like a step-half-aunt because I believe it's Abby's half-sister.
7:19
Speaker 2: Once removed.
7:19
Speaker 1: Something like that.
7:20
Speaker 2: By marriage. Right.
7:21
Speaker 1: Okay. So let's get to the actual day of the murder. Murders. Murders.
7:27
Speaker 1: Double homicide. So it's August 4th, 1892, 6.15 a.m. in
7:32
Speaker 1: the morning. The household maid, Bridget, Maggie Sullivan, wakes up
7:36
Speaker 1: and unlocks the doors. Around 6.30 a.m., the stepmother, Abby Borden,
7:40
Speaker 1: comes downstairs. Around 7 a.m., the father, Andrew Borden, and
7:47
Speaker 1: there's also an uncle staying. So they have a visitor.
7:49
Speaker 1: His name's John Morse. He's staying in the guest bedroom upstairs.
7:54
Speaker 2: Okay.
7:56
Speaker 1: They come down and join Abby for breakfast.
7:58
Speaker 2: They have a guest bedroom? They don't have indoor plumbing?
8:00
Speaker 1: They have a guest bedroom, but they don't have indoor plumbing, yeah.
8:03
Speaker 2: Okay.
8:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess the upstairs I read was remodeled
8:08
Speaker 1: or something, but it's weird. There's no hallway, so you
8:10
Speaker 1: have to go through rooms to get to the next room.
8:15
Speaker 2: Does the bed and breakfast have indoor plumbing?
8:18
Speaker 1: I don't know. I would assume so now, but.
8:21
Speaker 2: I don't know. Unless you want to make it accurately
8:25
Speaker 2: representing the time period. Right.
8:27
Speaker 1: So we're on the morning of the murders. At 7 a.m.,
8:30
Speaker 1: the father, Andrew Borden, and the uncle, who's staying in
8:33
Speaker 1: the guest room, join Abby, who is the stepmother, for breakfast.
8:37
Speaker 1: Lizzie stays upstairs in her room. Between 9 and 9.30 a.m.,
8:42
Speaker 1: we know that John Morse, the visitor, leaves the house.
8:46
Speaker 1: And Abby is believed to be murdered shortly after this
8:49
Speaker 1: time frame in the upstairs guest room.
8:52
Speaker 2: Like as if she was waiting for the visitor to leave, maybe?
8:55
Speaker 1: Well, the way I understood it was that she had
8:57
Speaker 1: gone up to the guest bedroom to like tidy it
9:00
Speaker 1: up because he had been staying there and she's putting
9:01
Speaker 1: shams on a pillow or something like that. So Abby
9:05
Speaker 1: had come downstairs for breakfast, then goes back upstairs. Between
9:11
Speaker 1: 1045 a.m. and 11 a.m., Andrew Borden, well, then Andrew leaves.
9:14
Speaker 1: This is the dad. He leaves and he goes and
9:15
Speaker 1: he walks around like the main part of town to
9:17
Speaker 1: look at all his properties. I just picture him walking
9:19
Speaker 1: around like, I own that.
9:20
Speaker 2: With a clipboard and he's.
9:21
Speaker 1: Like, check.
9:22
Speaker 2: I still own that one. Check.
9:24
Speaker 1: Yes, I own that. So he goes and he looks
9:26
Speaker 1: at his properties and then he walks home. He comes
9:29
Speaker 1: in and I believe Maggie, the housekeeper, lets him into
9:34
Speaker 1: the house. Bridget. Bridget Maggie. Bridget Maggie Sullivan.
9:38
Speaker 2: I bet you they had a name tag. For the
9:40
Speaker 2: old housekeeper, and it was Maggie. And he was too
9:43
Speaker 2: cheap to buy a new name tag.
9:44
Speaker 1: Right.
9:44
Speaker 2: So he's like, you're Maggie. Yes.
9:46
Speaker 1: So every housekeeper is now Maggie in the Borden household.
9:50
Speaker 2: Yes.
9:51
Speaker 1: So Andrew Borden returns home after walking around and looking
9:54
Speaker 1: at all his properties, and Bridget lets him in after
9:57
Speaker 1: finding the door locked. And then we know that Andrew
10:00
Speaker 1: is killed shortly after that while resting on the sitting
10:03
Speaker 1: room sofa. So he goes into this parlor area to
10:06
Speaker 1: take a nap because he's tired from looking at all
10:07
Speaker 1: his properties and all his- Counting his money. Counting his money.
10:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
10:12
Speaker 1: So he goes into the parlor. He sits down on
10:15
Speaker 1: one of those ornate kind of fancy sofas to take
10:18
Speaker 1: a nap. falls asleep, and then gets bludgeoned to death
10:23
Speaker 1: in his face. All right, this all happens.
10:25
Speaker 2: Where's Bridget?
10:27
Speaker 1: That's the question. Bridget's the maid. So Bridget apparently let
10:30
Speaker 1: him into the house around 1045 a.m. And then she
10:33
Speaker 1: goes upstairs to the third floor to rest. So her
10:36
Speaker 1: room's up on the third floor of the house. Now
10:38
Speaker 1: the question really is, where is Lizzie? Because Lizzie puts herself,
10:43
Speaker 1: sometimes she's in the house. I've read so many accounts
10:45
Speaker 1: of where she is, I can't really figure out where
10:47
Speaker 1: she is. But sometimes she's in the house ironing in
10:50
Speaker 1: the dining room. And then other times she claims she
10:53
Speaker 1: was eating pears in the barn. And then another time
10:57
Speaker 1: she was in the barn looking for lead sinkers because
11:00
Speaker 1: they were going on a fishing trip at some point.
11:03
Speaker 1: So she's kind of all around.
11:05
Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah.
11:07
Speaker 1: All right, so then around 11 a.m., this is when
11:09
Speaker 1: Lizzie discovers and she calls out to Bridget. She discovers
11:13
Speaker 1: her father dead in the parlor on the couch.
11:15
Speaker 2: Okay, so your defense is Bridget lets him in, the father, right?
11:20
Speaker 1: Right.
11:20
Speaker 2: He goes and rests and Bridget goes upstairs and rests.
11:23
Speaker 2: And then the daughter, Lizzie, walks in and sees the
11:27
Speaker 2: father bludgeoned to death.
11:28
Speaker 1: Right.
11:29
Speaker 2: Okay.
11:29
Speaker 1: So around 11 a.m., she calls out to Bridget, the maid,
11:33
Speaker 1: claiming that someone has murdered her father. She says like, Bridget, come.
11:39
Speaker 1: My father's dead or something like that. So then the
11:41
Speaker 1: maid comes. And then she asks the maid to go
11:45
Speaker 1: get the neighbor. The neighbor's name is Adelaide Churchill. And
11:49
Speaker 1: she comes and arrives shortly after that. Now, she is important.
11:53
Speaker 2: Where do they go get the neighbor for?
11:54
Speaker 1: I don't know. She says, go get the neighbor and
11:56
Speaker 1: the doctor. And the police.
11:58
Speaker 2: But he's dead.
12:00
Speaker 1: He's dead, yes.
12:00
Speaker 2: So what's the doctor going to do?
12:03
Speaker 1: Just pronounce him dead. I don't know.
12:05
Speaker 2: It's medical examiner.
12:06
Speaker 1: Right. So the neighbor comes over right after this happens.
12:12
Speaker 1: It's very important because the neighbor ends up testifying that
12:15
Speaker 1: when she comes to the scene that she finds Lizzie
12:20
Speaker 1: like perfectly put together. So like her hair is kept.
12:24
Speaker 1: She has no blood.
12:25
Speaker 2: Like. Like, not like, therefore, she couldn't have committed a murder,
12:29
Speaker 2: but rather she glammed herself up and cleaned herself up
12:33
Speaker 2: so well, despite there being a murder.
12:36
Speaker 1: Well, you can interpret it any way you want. I'm
12:38
Speaker 1: just saying when the neighbor arrives after they find the
12:40
Speaker 1: father dead on the parlor sofa, Lizzie does not have
12:44
Speaker 1: any blood on her anywhere. She doesn't have any on
12:46
Speaker 1: her face, on her hands, on her clothing, and her
12:48
Speaker 1: hair is tidy.
12:50
Speaker 2: So she's innocent.
12:52
Speaker 1: Well, I don't, I don't know.
12:54
Speaker 2: I don't know. Are you saying she's too clean?
12:57
Speaker 1: No, I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying the neighbor
12:59
Speaker 1: testifies to that. When it finally goes to trial, that's
13:02
Speaker 1: important that the witness says, she also says she has
13:04
Speaker 1: on a blue dress. She said she has on a
13:06
Speaker 1: blue dress and that she doesn't notice any blood on
13:09
Speaker 1: her or blood splatter. So like, just hold that in
13:12
Speaker 1: your head for right now. Okay. All right. So then
13:16
Speaker 1: after they find the father dead, they're asking like where
13:20
Speaker 1: Abby is, the stepmom. And they believe that she, Lizzie
13:24
Speaker 1: says that she thought that she had gone out for
13:26
Speaker 1: the day because they received a note that said that
13:28
Speaker 1: some neighbor was sick. So Lizzie claims that she didn't
13:31
Speaker 1: think her stepmother was home. She thought that she had
13:33
Speaker 1: gone out to visit like a sick friend. But then
13:35
Speaker 1: the neighbor and the maid, Maggie, Bridget, whatever you want
13:39
Speaker 1: to call her, go upstairs. And this is when they
13:42
Speaker 1: find the stepmom, Abby, dead in the guest bedroom on
13:46
Speaker 1: the floor next to the bed. She's actually down.
13:48
Speaker 2: So they don't even know she's in the home. And
13:50
Speaker 2: then they find her dead in the home.
13:52
Speaker 1: They find her dead in the home.
13:53
Speaker 2: Not even knowing she's in the home.
13:55
Speaker 1: Right but they find her dead in the home after
13:57
Speaker 1: they find the father dead but according to what i
14:02
Speaker 1: read they believe that she was killed first because when
14:04
Speaker 1: they found her dead around 11 15 a.m or whatever
14:08
Speaker 1: time this is in the morning that she was cold
14:12
Speaker 1: and the blood on her was coagulated so they believe
14:16
Speaker 1: she was killed first they believe she was killed sometime
14:18
Speaker 1: around 9 30 in the morning And then they believe
14:21
Speaker 1: that the father, when he came home from being out,
14:24
Speaker 1: was killed around 1045.
14:25
Speaker 2: So it's as if she was killed while the father
14:29
Speaker 2: was out counting his properties. And then he comes home
14:32
Speaker 2: and takes a nap and is killed. Right. And where
14:34
Speaker 2: is Bridget this whole time? Because you told me the
14:37
Speaker 2: stepmother was found on the second floor and Bridget was
14:39
Speaker 2: on the third floor.
14:40
Speaker 1: But Bridget didn't go up to the third floor until
14:42
Speaker 1: after she let him into the house.
14:45
Speaker 2: Right, which would, in your timeline of events, after the
14:49
Speaker 2: murder of the stepmother. That's what I'm saying. The murder
14:52
Speaker 2: of this, the murdering of the stepmother. How did that
14:55
Speaker 2: happen without Bridget? Knowing or seeing or hearing anything.
15:00
Speaker 1: Well, that was the question to Lizzie Borden too, because
15:02
Speaker 1: she claims that she was ironing in the dining room
15:05
Speaker 1: at that time, which would be like the nine, nine
15:07
Speaker 1: 30 timeframe, which would mean if it wasn't her, she
15:10
Speaker 1: would have been able to hear it happen because it
15:12
Speaker 1: was her, because the guest bedroom is directly above the
15:15
Speaker 1: dining room. And this house isn't made very well. That's
15:17
Speaker 1: what I read that it was like kind of the
15:19
Speaker 1: walls are kind of paper thin that you, you would
15:21
Speaker 1: assume that if someone was getting bludgeoned to death right
15:24
Speaker 1: above you.
15:24
Speaker 2: And I don't know. We assume that in the Idaho
15:27
Speaker 2: case too, those murders, you always wondered how everyone slept
15:30
Speaker 2: through everything. Maybe murder is not as loud as we think.
15:33
Speaker 2: Maybe TV really just exaggerates.
15:35
Speaker 1: Sensationalized it and made it look like it's like a loud, dramatic,
15:40
Speaker 1: vicious thing.
15:41
Speaker 2: I don't know.
15:41
Speaker 1: I was trying to think like if Abby's in the
15:44
Speaker 1: guest bedroom and someone comes up behind her, cause she
15:46
Speaker 1: was bludgeoned to death from her back of her head.
15:48
Speaker 1: So she's taken by surprise. yeah so maybe she doesn't
15:52
Speaker 1: make any noise maybe she doesn't scream maybe to the
15:55
Speaker 1: ground that's it maybe she was hit so hard the
15:57
Speaker 1: first time how do you hit you hit someone 18
16:00
Speaker 1: to 19 times in the back of the head no
16:02
Speaker 1: one hears or sees anything and also according to what
16:06
Speaker 1: i read about the house you there's no hallways you
16:08
Speaker 1: have to pass through the bedrooms to get to I
16:11
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know.
16:12
Speaker 2: You had to go from bedroom to bedroom to get
16:14
Speaker 2: to places.
16:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't know if the maid, when she
16:16
Speaker 1: went to retire upstairs on the third floor to take
16:18
Speaker 1: a nap because she was tired, she missed the dead body.
16:21
Speaker 2: Why is Bridget not a suspect?
16:25
Speaker 1: I don't know.
16:26
Speaker 2: Maybe she was fed up with being called Maggie.
16:28
Speaker 1: Maybe she was.
16:28
Speaker 2: She couldn't take it anymore.
16:30
Speaker 1: She was mad. All right. Now let's get to a
16:33
Speaker 1: couple days later. So we get to August 6th of 1892.
16:38
Speaker 1: So this is when, so Lizzie has a friend. Her
16:41
Speaker 1: name's Alice Russell. Clearly, they're not friends anymore after this.
16:44
Speaker 1: But Alice Russell testified. Because she tells the police, she
16:48
Speaker 1: talks to the police, and she tells them that she
16:51
Speaker 1: saw Lizzie burning a blue dress in the kitchen a
16:55
Speaker 1: couple days after the murder.
16:57
Speaker 2: But the blue dress, as far as we know, was
16:59
Speaker 2: clean anyway. According to the neighbor. It's not like they
17:02
Speaker 2: did DNA testing back then.
17:03
Speaker 1: I know. That's what the neighbor said. The neighbor said
17:05
Speaker 1: there was no blood on the dress that she had on.
17:07
Speaker 1: And the maid confirmed that Lizzie had a blue dress on.
17:11
Speaker 1: And then the friend, Alice Russell, tells the police that
17:14
Speaker 1: she was at the Borden house because she's friends with
17:17
Speaker 1: Lizzie and Emma, the two sisters, and that Lizzie was
17:20
Speaker 1: burning a blue dress in the kitchen. And she claims
17:23
Speaker 1: that she was burning the dress because it had paint
17:26
Speaker 1: on it.
17:27
Speaker 2: Why would you burn it? You would just throw it away.
17:30
Speaker 1: Because she's trying to get rid of the evidence, I guess.
17:31
Speaker 2: Well, I know that, but I mean, if it was paint,
17:34
Speaker 2: why would you burn it?
17:36
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about this, because this is mind-boggling as well.
17:39
Speaker 1: You have two people in this house bludgeoned to death.
17:42
Speaker 2: Right. And two people not bludgeoned to death, completely unconscious
17:46
Speaker 2: and unaware that it happened. Right. Or claiming it.
17:49
Speaker 1: Claiming they don't know. However, there is no... During the investigation,
17:53
Speaker 1: when the police investigate... Also, again, we're in the 1890s,
17:56
Speaker 1: by the way, but When they investigate the house and
17:58
Speaker 1: go through the house looking for evidence or clues or whatever,
18:02
Speaker 1: there is no blood found anywhere except for the blood
18:06
Speaker 1: spot where the stepmother died and then the blood spots
18:10
Speaker 1: where the dad died.
18:12
Speaker 2: So there's no trails.
18:13
Speaker 1: There's no blood trail. There's no splatter on the walls.
18:17
Speaker 1: There's no footprints with blood.
18:19
Speaker 2: What about a weapon?
18:21
Speaker 1: They don't know if they found the weapon. They say ax,
18:25
Speaker 1: but it's not actually an ax. They believe that she,
18:28
Speaker 1: they were bludgeoned to death with a hatchet.
18:30
Speaker 2: Oh, so the nursery rhyme's wrong. Yeah.
18:32
Speaker 1: Well, it also, yeah, the nursery rhyme's wrong. They found,
18:35
Speaker 1: the police found the head of a hatchet in the
18:38
Speaker 1: basement with the handle broken off. So they believe that
18:42
Speaker 1: that's the possible murder weapon. However, there was no blood
18:46
Speaker 1: found on the hatchet. But again, we're in the 1890s.
18:48
Speaker 1: So the only way.
18:49
Speaker 2: But you make it like the 1890s, they can't see blood.
18:52
Speaker 1: Well, no, they can't. To the eye, they don't see
18:54
Speaker 1: any blood. I'm saying they don't have luminol or DNA
18:57
Speaker 1: testing or.
18:58
Speaker 2: A way to... They don't have UV lights or anything?
19:00
Speaker 1: No, they don't have a way to see if there's
19:03
Speaker 1: blood actually on the hatchet.
19:05
Speaker 2: Yeah. You're saying if it's wiped clean, even just to
19:09
Speaker 2: the surface, they're not going to see any blood.
19:12
Speaker 1: Right. So to the naked eye, they don't see any blood.
19:14
Speaker 2: So that's the best century to commit murder then.
19:18
Speaker 1: Definitely the best century.
19:19
Speaker 2: Yeah. Who invented Luminol?
19:21
Speaker 1: I don't know, but again, I'm just going to go back.
19:24
Speaker 1: So I would love to have my own Luminol. I
19:26
Speaker 1: want to go to the Lizzie Borden house. Has anyone
19:28
Speaker 1: done that? Has anyone gone back to that house?
19:30
Speaker 2: That's why I say go to bed and breakfast with
19:31
Speaker 2: some Luminol and spray it around.
19:32
Speaker 1: I want to spray it all over that house and see. Apparently,
19:35
Speaker 1: you can still see the blood stained through the floor
19:38
Speaker 1: where the dad died. You can go into the cellar
19:41
Speaker 1: and look up and you can see it.
19:42
Speaker 2: It's now preserved as the integrity, Yes. The architectural integrity.
19:46
Speaker 1: It's right there with the house.
19:47
Speaker 2: Historically protected.
19:55
Speaker 1: So along with the fact that there's no blood splatter
19:58
Speaker 1: in this house anywhere, there's no blood trails, there's no
20:01
Speaker 1: blood footprints, and apparently there's no blood on Lizzie Borden
20:05
Speaker 1: or the dress she has on. And the police find...
20:09
Speaker 1: a bucket of bloody clothes in the cellar. But Lizzie
20:14
Speaker 1: tells them it's because she was menstruating. And so they
20:18
Speaker 1: just walk away and they're like, okay, fine. That must
20:20
Speaker 1: be what it is. I feel like during that time period.
20:22
Speaker 2: They didn't want to talk about it. They were just like, okay. Uncomfortable, uncomfortable. Weird, weird.
20:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I feel like what a defense, like how
20:29
Speaker 1: you can get away with murdered in the 1890s. You
20:32
Speaker 1: just say the blood is from menstruation and the police
20:35
Speaker 1: just are like, okay, fine. We won't look at it
20:37
Speaker 1: or touch it or have anything to do with it.
20:39
Speaker 1: So anyway.
20:41
Speaker 2: What could they do? What could they do? I mean,
20:44
Speaker 2: if they didn't have the means to really test the
20:45
Speaker 2: blood in any way, I know DNA, obviously, but even like,
20:49
Speaker 2: remember back in the day, they could look at hair
20:51
Speaker 2: strands and carpet and kind of similarities. And they'd be like,
20:55
Speaker 2: this hair is likely from the, but now it's like
20:58
Speaker 2: DNA is a little bit more black and white. So
21:00
Speaker 2: I don't know, back then, could they look at, they
21:01
Speaker 2: couldn't look at blood.
21:03
Speaker 1: No, but I feel like they didn't look at it
21:05
Speaker 1: at all. I mean, why didn't they remove the.
21:08
Speaker 2: No, they were probably like completely disgusted. Yeah, yeah. Never mind.
21:12
Speaker 2: All right.
21:12
Speaker 1: Fine, we won't talk about that anymore. Because I'm saying,
21:15
Speaker 1: what if it was clothing? Like, what if the blood
21:18
Speaker 1: was on clothing, not just like on an undergarment or something?
21:21
Speaker 1: I mean, what if it was a.
21:22
Speaker 2: Like it was on a man's suit?
21:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, or if it's a dress.
21:26
Speaker 2: A blue dress?
21:26
Speaker 1: A blue dress or a dress that Lizzie owned and
21:29
Speaker 1: the blood's all over, you know, the front of it.
21:32
Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense.
21:33
Speaker 2: Was she known to paint?
21:35
Speaker 1: I don't think so.
21:35
Speaker 2: Because that would be a good decoy. You have paint
21:38
Speaker 2: buckets out and they're like, oh yeah, it was paint.
21:40
Speaker 2: So I burned my clothes. Yeah. And be like, well,
21:42
Speaker 2: clearly there's paint buckets here.
21:44
Speaker 1: Okay. So again, I'm just, I'm bad. This case is
21:48
Speaker 1: like living rent free in my head. I keep thinking
21:50
Speaker 1: about it because I'm baffled by the fact that she's
21:53
Speaker 1: completely clean, that there's no blood trails anywhere, that there's
21:56
Speaker 1: no blood splatter anywhere. And that there's two people in
22:00
Speaker 1: the house.
22:00
Speaker 2: Well, clearly she wiped everything down. Her and Bridget just
22:03
Speaker 2: wiped everything down.
22:04
Speaker 1: That would be my guess as well. Yes.
22:06
Speaker 2: All right.
22:06
Speaker 1: So let's get on to August 9th through 11th is
22:09
Speaker 1: when they do. So the police, they do try to,
22:13
Speaker 1: they talk to the neighbors and things and people are like, oh,
22:16
Speaker 1: maybe I saw some weird man walking around the night before,
22:18
Speaker 1: but really nothing comes of it, right? There's no witnesses.
22:21
Speaker 1: Nobody sees anyone else. So the police hone in on
22:24
Speaker 1: Lizzie because that's the only logical explanation is it had
22:28
Speaker 1: to have been her. Why not Bridget? Police determined that
22:32
Speaker 1: Lizzie would have had motive and opportunity. She was home,
22:35
Speaker 1: and the motive would have been the fact that she
22:37
Speaker 1: would have inherited from her dad, and he was very wealthy.
22:40
Speaker 1: I mean, why does Bridget want him dead? She's not
22:42
Speaker 1: going to inherit anything.
22:44
Speaker 2: I don't know.
22:45
Speaker 1: So we call it an investigation. At this time, it
22:47
Speaker 1: was called an inquest. It's held to investigate the two deaths.
22:51
Speaker 2: I like investigation better. Yes.
22:53
Speaker 1: At this time, it's an inquest, like an inquisition, inquest.
22:58
Speaker 1: Lizzie gives testimony, but some of her answers appear inconsistent.
23:03
Speaker 1: Her family doctor claims that the inconsistency in her answers,
23:08
Speaker 1: she contradicts herself a lot, could be the result of
23:10
Speaker 1: the morphine he prescribed for her after her parents' deaths.
23:15
Speaker 2: Morphine? To mourn their deaths?
23:17
Speaker 1: I guess because maybe she was, you know.
23:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, but morphine doesn't seem like....
23:23
Speaker 1: Um, later, and we talked, I talked about this with
23:26
Speaker 1: you last night. Remember I said that she gives all
23:28
Speaker 1: these inconsistent statements during this inquest where the police, I
23:31
Speaker 1: believe they questioned her for four hours. She makes all
23:34
Speaker 1: these contradictory statements. Then the judge went before she goes
23:38
Speaker 1: to trial, the judge decides that none of her statements
23:42
Speaker 1: that were made during this inquest are allowed into the
23:44
Speaker 1: trial and the judge it's a three panel. Well, they
23:49
Speaker 1: weren't called Miranda rights at the time. Right. But they,
23:51
Speaker 1: the judges decide that she's not that in fourth amendment,
23:56
Speaker 1: that none of the testimony that she gave during this
23:58
Speaker 1: inquest is allowed to be presented at trial. because it
24:02
Speaker 1: was a violation of her Fifth Amendment rights, because she
24:04
Speaker 1: was not given, she didn't have an attorney present when
24:06
Speaker 1: she gave any of these statements. And she was not
24:10
Speaker 1: given notice that she could not talk.
24:13
Speaker 2: Remain silent.
24:14
Speaker 1: That she could remain silent. We know today those are
24:16
Speaker 1: called Miranda rights. Right. And we looked it up. Miranda
24:19
Speaker 1: rights became.
24:21
Speaker 2: In 66.
24:22
Speaker 1: In 1966.
24:23
Speaker 2: Right.
24:23
Speaker 1: It was a case. What was his name? Ernesto Miranda.
24:26
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:26
Speaker 1: But I was talking about his first name. His name
24:28
Speaker 1: was Ernesto Miranda.
24:29
Speaker 2: It was 1966.
24:29
Speaker 1: He's in Arizona.
24:32
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:32
Speaker 1: And that's when it became law, federal law.
24:36
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the case set the precedent. Right. The rights
24:40
Speaker 2: need to be provided at a certain time.
24:41
Speaker 1: That when you are taken into custody that you have
24:45
Speaker 1: to be given your Miranda rights, which is the right
24:46
Speaker 1: to remain silent and all the other rights that were
24:48
Speaker 1: in that. So anyway, so none of these contradictory statements
24:51
Speaker 1: that she gives during this inquest are allowed into her trial.
24:55
Speaker 2: Do we know what she said in that interview? That
24:58
Speaker 2: would be good.
24:58
Speaker 1: I couldn't really... get information about what was actually said.
25:02
Speaker 1: I guess maybe it's because it wasn't allowed at trial,
25:05
Speaker 1: so there's no public record of.
25:06
Speaker 2: What it was. Right, but that would be a good
25:07
Speaker 2: day if we had that.
25:09
Speaker 1: I do know statements about her whereabouts were contradictory as
25:12
Speaker 1: far as she was saying she was ironing in the
25:16
Speaker 1: dining room at one point, but then she also claimed
25:18
Speaker 1: that she was in the barn eating pears.
25:21
Speaker 2: You know what it took to iron back then?
25:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to heat that iron.
25:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had to put coal in it. Yeah. You
25:27
Speaker 2: heat up coal and you put it in the iron
25:28
Speaker 2: and you iron it.
25:29
Speaker 1: That sounds like a lot of work. I don't even
25:31
Speaker 1: like to iron now.
25:32
Speaker 2: No, you won't even do it now. No.
25:35
Speaker 1: On August 11th of 1892, Lizzie Borden is arrested and
25:38
Speaker 1: charged in connection with the murders of her father and stepmother.
25:42
Speaker 1: She pleads not guilty and remains in jail in Towton, Massachusetts,
25:46
Speaker 1: while awaiting further legal proceedings. Originally, a grand jury did
25:52
Speaker 1: not indict her originally because they didn't think there was
25:55
Speaker 1: enough evidence. However, when her friend, remember I told you
25:58
Speaker 1: about the friend that came forward and said that she
26:00
Speaker 1: saw her burning the dress?
26:01
Speaker 2: Yeah.
26:02
Speaker 1: That evidence, then the grand jury was reconvened again, and
26:06
Speaker 1: then they indicted her after hearing about the evidence of
26:08
Speaker 1: burning the dress.
26:09
Speaker 2: Oh, that was enough to tip the scale on.
26:12
Speaker 1: Between August 25th and September 1st of 1892, a preliminary
26:16
Speaker 1: hearing is conducted and the case is bound over to
26:18
Speaker 1: the grand jury. On December 2nd of 1892, a grand
26:22
Speaker 1: jury indicts Lizzie for the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden.
26:25
Speaker 1: The case attracts national attention as newspapers closely follow every development. Wait,
26:32
Speaker 1: I just want to share this with you because I
26:33
Speaker 1: thought this was funny. So all these newspapers, right, like
26:38
Speaker 1: everybody's following this story. But the only way you can
26:40
Speaker 1: get information is you have to wait for the– it's
26:43
Speaker 1: not like now.
26:44
Speaker 2: Hot off the press.
26:44
Speaker 1: Hot off the press. All right. So we get to
26:47
Speaker 1: the trial. The trial takes place. Oh, first of all,
26:50
Speaker 1: Lizzie has a very good defense team. So obviously she
26:52
Speaker 1: has access to her dad's money because she, one of
26:55
Speaker 1: her defense attorneys is the former governor of Massachusetts. So
26:58
Speaker 1: she has two defense attorneys.
27:00
Speaker 2: Okay.
27:01
Speaker 1: And then there's the prosecutors. She has a very good
27:04
Speaker 1: defense team.
27:05
Speaker 2: You know, it might be ignorant of me, but it
27:07
Speaker 2: seems like if you told me about a murder in
27:09
Speaker 2: the 1800s, it would seem like it would just be
27:11
Speaker 2: like result in a hanging at the end of the week. Yeah.
27:14
Speaker 2: Like it wouldn't be so sophisticated with this inquest. Yeah.
27:17
Speaker 2: The former governor being the attorney, her having a team,
27:21
Speaker 2: you know, throwing out her interrogation for a violation, indictments. Right.
27:29
Speaker 2: I don't see all that.
27:30
Speaker 1: There's also one more thing that wasn't allowed in at trial,
27:33
Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting as well. So according to
27:37
Speaker 1: another witness, his name was Eli, I believe. The day
27:41
Speaker 1: before the murders, Lizzie, he claims that Lizzie went to
27:45
Speaker 1: his shop and tried to buy, it's called prussic acid, P-R-U-S-S-I-C,
27:50
Speaker 1: prussic acid. And it's a deadly acid. If you ingest it,
27:55
Speaker 1: you die. He claims that she came in trying to
27:59
Speaker 1: buy it the day before the murders and that she
28:02
Speaker 1: told him she needed it because she was going to
28:04
Speaker 1: put an edge on a seal cape. So she had
28:08
Speaker 1: a cape on. cape. This is 1890s. Again, she had
28:11
Speaker 1: a cape made from seal fur. Oh, like a seal
28:16
Speaker 1: like animal like a seal, and that she needed this acid,
28:20
Speaker 1: this deadly acid to put like some type of edging
28:23
Speaker 1: on this cape, but he refused to sell it to
28:25
Speaker 1: her because you can't buy it, you have to have
28:27
Speaker 1: a prescription from a doctor or something to be able
28:29
Speaker 1: to buy it. So he came forward and told the
28:33
Speaker 1: police this information. However, again, this information was not allowed
28:37
Speaker 1: at trial.
28:39
Speaker 2: Yeah. And they didn't die that way anyway.
28:42
Speaker 1: No, no, but it goes to motive. I mean, if
28:44
Speaker 1: you're a prosecutor, don't you want to get that information in?
28:46
Speaker 1: I mean, clearly she, if, if it's true and he's
28:50
Speaker 1: credible and you put him on the witness stand, it
28:52
Speaker 1: looks like she was first thinking of killing them by
28:56
Speaker 1: poisoning and then she couldn't get the poison. She's so
28:59
Speaker 1: she's like, I guess I'm just going to have to
29:01
Speaker 1: hack them to death because I couldn't get the poison.
29:04
Speaker 1: All right, so the trial takes place in New Bedford, Massachusetts.
29:07
Speaker 1: This is June 5th through the 20th, and this is 1893.
29:12
Speaker 1: Lizzie had many supporters, those who were involved in charities
29:15
Speaker 1: and church groups with her. So Lizzie was very involved
29:18
Speaker 1: in her church and also very involved in charities. A
29:22
Speaker 1: lot of people in her church community supported her and
29:26
Speaker 1: claimed that she would not receive a fair trial because
29:28
Speaker 1: women weren't allowed to serve on juries at the time.
29:31
Speaker 1: So the jury during her trial was 12 men.
29:35
Speaker 2: That's interesting. Yeah.
29:36
Speaker 1: And women in Massachusetts were not allowed to serve on
29:38
Speaker 1: a jury until 1951. I believe. It took until 51.
29:40
Speaker 2: 51. Yeah. So she has a jury of 12 men.
29:46
Speaker 1: So also when the prosecution starts their case in chief,
29:50
Speaker 1: the prosecutor walks out and he throws a blue frock,
29:54
Speaker 1: like a blue dress onto the prosecution table. And the
29:58
Speaker 1: skulls of her father and her stepmother are in it
30:03
Speaker 1: and come and roll out onto the prosecution table. It
30:06
Speaker 1: was their actual skulls.
30:09
Speaker 2: You couldn't do that today.
30:10
Speaker 1: No, you couldn't do that today. But he did it.
30:12
Speaker 1: And allegedly or apparently, according to like the newspaper articles
30:16
Speaker 1: at the time, because obviously it's not filmed, but they're
30:19
Speaker 1: just writing and they're drawing pictures, right? There's a lot
30:21
Speaker 1: of pictures from the trial. There's an artist, you know, sketching.
30:25
Speaker 1: Lizzie fainted. when that happened and, you know, had to
30:28
Speaker 1: have a fan and everybody's fanning her. Can you imagine
30:31
Speaker 1: how dramatic that is in this courtroom in like the 1890s?
30:33
Speaker 1: I mean, she's sitting in a chair in the middle
30:36
Speaker 1: of the courtroom. She has a big hat on, right?
30:39
Speaker 2: Well, how do you know she does?
30:40
Speaker 1: Because I've seen courtroom drawings of it. She has a
30:42
Speaker 1: big hat on.
30:43
Speaker 2: Judge didn't make her take the hat off?
30:44
Speaker 1: No, she has her hat on and she's sitting there,
30:46
Speaker 1: you know, she has a fan and then the prosecutor
30:49
Speaker 1: walks out with a blue dress and he throws it
30:51
Speaker 1: onto the prosecution table.
30:52
Speaker 2: Why a blue dress?
30:53
Speaker 1: Because she allegedly was wearing a blue dress when all
30:56
Speaker 1: of this happened. So I'm sure you found something similar,
30:58
Speaker 1: but it couldn't have been the actual dress she was wearing.
31:00
Speaker 1: Cause apparently she burned the dress two days later. So
31:02
Speaker 1: I didn't really understand the significance of the dress. Yes,
31:06
Speaker 1: but it was the actual skulls, which had huge gaps,
31:11
Speaker 1: like holes in them from where they were bludgeoned to death.
31:14
Speaker 1: And these skulls roll out on the table. Obviously that
31:18
Speaker 1: was for effect.
31:20
Speaker 2: Did it have an impact?
31:23
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. I mean, we know that she's
31:25
Speaker 1: acquitted at the end. So, I mean, I don't know
31:28
Speaker 1: how impactful it was. However, it actually ends up working
31:44
Speaker 1: out for the defense because they ask her about the
31:46
Speaker 1: relations inside the home because they're trying to establish a motive.
31:49
Speaker 1: They want it to look like Lizzie didn't get along
31:51
Speaker 1: with her dad or Lizzie didn't like her stepmom. They
31:54
Speaker 1: want the jury to see that she had animosity with them. However,
31:58
Speaker 1: her sister testifies as well. And also the maid, Bridget,
32:03
Speaker 1: testifies that... That there was never any issues between them,
32:07
Speaker 1: that they got along, that everybody was cordial, that Lizzie
32:10
Speaker 1: really got along with her dad. There was another witness
32:13
Speaker 1: that testified that Lizzie had said something to the effect of, like,
32:18
Speaker 1: she didn't really like her stepmom or something like that.
32:20
Speaker 2: That's not enough to really.
32:22
Speaker 1: I know, but they couldn't really establish.
32:23
Speaker 2: So then what would be another possible motive? The money?
32:26
Speaker 1: The money. I think the money, just the fact that
32:29
Speaker 1: they lived kind of a meager lifestyle and she wanted more.
32:34
Speaker 1: After 15 days of testimony, the jury deliberated for approximately
32:37
Speaker 1: 90 minutes. Actually, and you know, one more thing, the
32:40
Speaker 1: defense attorney, this is a great defense, by the way,
32:43
Speaker 1: the defense attorney, basically, I think in his like closing arguments,
32:46
Speaker 1: he's basically like, you know, first of all, like a
32:48
Speaker 1: woman couldn't do this. That was really, I think.
32:51
Speaker 2: Is that a valid defense?
32:52
Speaker 1: No, this is what I really feel like the jury
32:54
Speaker 1: was deciding. It wasn't, it didn't really, it wasn't based
32:57
Speaker 1: on evidence or, you know, she had motive.
32:59
Speaker 2: It was based on genders.
33:01
Speaker 1: It was, it was based on whether they believe that
33:03
Speaker 1: a church going 32 year old woman who's, you know,
33:07
Speaker 1: never been in trouble and was just like a nice
33:10
Speaker 1: lady of a high, you know, high breeding, you know,
33:13
Speaker 1: she comes from.
33:13
Speaker 2: A wealthy family. Of a venerable man.
33:15
Speaker 1: Of a venerable man could commit such atrocious murders. That's
33:20
Speaker 1: really what the jury was deciding.
33:22
Speaker 2: Yeah.
33:23
Speaker 1: So the defense at the end, I love this as
33:25
Speaker 1: a defense. I feel like this is amazing. The defense
33:29
Speaker 1: says it couldn't have possibly been her, right? He said
33:34
Speaker 1: it was either the devil or a maniac. Oh.
33:40
Speaker 2: So he was trying to deflect and be like, we
33:43
Speaker 2: should be inquesting the devil? Right. It was either.
33:46
Speaker 1: It couldn't have been Lizzie because she's a nice church-going
33:49
Speaker 1: lady of high breeding and high moral standard.
33:52
Speaker 2: Right.
33:53
Speaker 1: It must have been.
33:54
Speaker 2: The devil.
33:55
Speaker 1: The devil or a maniac.
33:58
Speaker 2: Well, yeah. If it's not the devil, then it's clearly
34:00
Speaker 2: a maniac. Lizzie did it, didn't she?
34:03
Speaker 1: I believe she absolutely did it. The jury acquits Lizzie
34:07
Speaker 1: of both murders due to a lack of physical evidence
34:10
Speaker 1: and a clear murder weapon. The jury, this is 12 men, remember,
34:15
Speaker 1: did not believe that a woman could commit such a
34:18
Speaker 1: gruesome murder.
34:19
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting that they wouldn't allow women on
34:21
Speaker 2: the jury, right? Right. Which is obviously stupid, but because
34:23
Speaker 2: they don't think they're equal or whatever.
34:25
Speaker 1: They're chattel.
34:27
Speaker 2: Chattel. Personal property. So... But yet they also don't think
34:33
Speaker 2: that she could commit murder. It's like women aren't sophisticated
34:35
Speaker 2: enough to be on the jury, and they're not sophisticated
34:37
Speaker 2: enough to commit murder. Right. It's just like, it's on
34:40
Speaker 2: one end, they're very judgmental about women, right? They prejudge them.
34:46
Speaker 2: They have all these preconceived notions about women. And one
34:49
Speaker 2: of them's like, they're good people. They didn't kill. So
34:52
Speaker 2: this is kind of funny. You'd think they'd be like,
34:54
Speaker 2: hang them, right? A little bit more aggressive, like she
34:57
Speaker 2: killed a venerable man of our society. Yeah.
35:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, here's my thoughts on that. If the maid
35:03
Speaker 1: were the one that was being tried, I think a
35:06
Speaker 1: jury would be okay convicting her. But I think the
35:10
Speaker 1: fact that she was well-bred.
35:12
Speaker 2: Who her father was.
35:13
Speaker 1: And she came from a highly educated, wealthy family. There's
35:19
Speaker 1: no possible way that a woman of that stature, status,
35:23
Speaker 1: could have done something like that.
35:24
Speaker 2: Wow.
35:26
Speaker 1: Which we know.
35:26
Speaker 2: But Bridget could. We both could.
35:28
Speaker 1: But we know that that's not true.
35:30
Speaker 2: And the devil and maniacs could.
35:31
Speaker 1: All right. So Lizzie's acquitted. And then no one else
35:34
Speaker 1: is ever charged with the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden.
35:37
Speaker 1: So then she's acquitted. She's free to go. Now she's
35:42
Speaker 1: acquitted and she inherits her father's estate.
35:44
Speaker 2: And her sister did, I assume, right?
35:46
Speaker 1: Her sister.
35:47
Speaker 2: Her older sister. She had a 41-year-old sister.
35:49
Speaker 1: So she and her sister move because they inherit the money.
35:53
Speaker 1: But this is interesting. Let's talk about this for a second.
35:55
Speaker 1: We talked about this a little bit yesterday.
35:57
Speaker 2: Okay.
35:58
Speaker 1: It's interesting, and I don't know if it was done
36:01
Speaker 1: on purpose, but we know that Abby was killed first.
36:04
Speaker 1: And that has to do with inheritance, possibly.
36:07
Speaker 2: At least the reporting shows that she was believed to
36:10
Speaker 2: have died first.
36:11
Speaker 1: Well, if he was found warm and oozing blood.
36:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If that's accurate, then yeah,
36:17
Speaker 2: she died first.
36:17
Speaker 1: And she was found with blood coagulated and cold to
36:21
Speaker 1: the touch, then she was killed first. So if Abby
36:24
Speaker 1: was killed first, as far as inheritance... That means that
36:28
Speaker 1: then he's still alive and therefore his daughters would inherit.
36:33
Speaker 2: Meaning his wife inherits nothing.
36:36
Speaker 1: Right.
36:36
Speaker 2: And he retains it all and then it gets disseminated.
36:40
Speaker 1: And then he dies second.
36:42
Speaker 2: Yeah.
36:42
Speaker 1: Therefore he still has his fortune and then it goes
36:45
Speaker 1: to his daughters. However, if he were killed first, the
36:49
Speaker 1: inheritance could go to his wife, which then would go
36:53
Speaker 1: to his wife and her family.
36:55
Speaker 2: Let's say he died intestate without a will. Then he dies.
37:00
Speaker 2: Generally speaking, I know it could go to the kids
37:02
Speaker 2: and all. But then if the wife were to inherit
37:04
Speaker 2: it all, right, then she dies. And then whatever her will,
37:10
Speaker 2: or if she didn't have a will, however it would
37:12
Speaker 2: be distributed, would be based on her owning the property,
37:15
Speaker 2: which could clearly exclude.
37:17
Speaker 1: His daughters.
37:18
Speaker 2: The Borden girls.
37:18
Speaker 1: So I just wonder if her death first... was on
37:22
Speaker 1: purpose or if it just happened that way.
37:24
Speaker 2: You tell me she would be sophisticated enough to go
37:27
Speaker 2: kill and then think, okay, let's see, the blood will
37:30
Speaker 2: be cold to the touch and I'll go kill my
37:32
Speaker 2: dad and keep him warm.
37:34
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's too much. I'm just saying that's
37:35
Speaker 1: very interesting. It's just an interesting thought to me.
37:38
Speaker 2: No, my thought is she was too stupid. She didn't
37:41
Speaker 2: think about it one way or another. She just wanted
37:43
Speaker 2: him dead so she can inherit the money.
37:44
Speaker 1: Right. All right, so we know after Lizzie's acquitted that
37:48
Speaker 1: she and her sister Emma inherit an estimated $ 300, 000 following
37:53
Speaker 1: the murders, which in today's standards would equate to about
37:56
Speaker 1: $ 11 million today. Because their father died in test date, oh,
38:00
Speaker 1: he did not have a will.
38:01
Speaker 2: Okay.
38:02
Speaker 1: His entire fortune passed completely to his two surviving daughters.
38:06
Speaker 1: All right, so now that they have access to the money, right?
38:09
Speaker 1: Because obviously before they had no access to any of
38:11
Speaker 1: his money.
38:11
Speaker 2: So what do they do? They open up a bed
38:13
Speaker 2: and breakfast?
38:14
Speaker 1: No, they move to the big house in the big
38:17
Speaker 1: fancy part of town.
38:18
Speaker 2: They start living large.
38:19
Speaker 1: Yes, and they buy this big estate.
38:22
Speaker 2: Flying private.
38:23
Speaker 1: Yeah.
38:23
Speaker 2: They're doing it all. Yeah.
38:32
Speaker 1: Lizzie and Emma purchase a large home in the wealthier
38:34
Speaker 1: part of Fall River, and Lizzie names the property Maplecroft.
38:39
Speaker 1: Many Fall River residents continue to believe Lizzie was responsible
38:43
Speaker 1: despite her acquittal, and Lizzie experiences social isolation and remains
38:47
Speaker 1: the subject of public speculation.
38:49
Speaker 2: So she lived out her whole life?
38:51
Speaker 1: In the same town. She didn't even move. She just
38:53
Speaker 1: moved to like a.
38:54
Speaker 2: Oh, she just moved to the rich neighborhood?
38:56
Speaker 1: She just moved to the wealthy, the uber wealthy neighborhood
38:58
Speaker 1: and bought a big house and named it Maplecroft.
39:00
Speaker 2: You know, this is a case where the criminal... got
39:07
Speaker 2: away with it and got all the loot and like
39:09
Speaker 2: live in large. Yeah. Didn't even have to leave the neighborhood.
39:13
Speaker 1: I mean, she was ostracized. I did read that like
39:15
Speaker 1: her church community didn't welcome her back. And you know,
39:19
Speaker 1: she didn't.
39:19
Speaker 2: Clearly didn't the jury talk to her church community and say, look,
39:22
Speaker 2: she couldn't have committed a crime. She goes to your church.
39:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I don't know, the defense probably didn't tell
39:25
Speaker 1: them that it was either the devil or a maniac either.
39:28
Speaker 1: They weren't aware of that.
39:29
Speaker 2: Um, Good thing they didn't have her church peers on
39:32
Speaker 2: the jury.
39:33
Speaker 1: In 1897, so this is after she's acquitted, Lizzie is
39:36
Speaker 1: accused of shoplifting in Providence, Rhode Island, though the matter
39:39
Speaker 1: is settled quietly. Probably because she has a lot of money.
39:41
Speaker 2: So she's... And they don't want to be murdered. It's okay.
39:44
Speaker 1: It's okay.
39:45
Speaker 2: Take whatever you want. Right.
39:47
Speaker 1: In 1905, Emma moves out of Maplecroft after an apparent
39:51
Speaker 1: disagreement with Lizzie. We don't know what happened, but the
39:53
Speaker 1: two sisters, who are very close and live together in
39:56
Speaker 1: this big estate that they purchased after the murders, they
39:59
Speaker 1: have some kind of falling out. We don't know why,
40:01
Speaker 1: but they never speak to each other again.
40:02
Speaker 2: It's never going to have a falling out with them. murder.
40:05
Speaker 1: That's why she moved out. She can't stay in the house.
40:07
Speaker 1: She's going to get bludgeoned to death.
40:08
Speaker 2: She's like, well, I can live with you, but we
40:10
Speaker 2: can't have any heavy objects in the house and no weapons.
40:13
Speaker 1: So Emma moves out and the sisters remain estranged for
40:17
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. I also read that Lizzie,
40:21
Speaker 1: she becomes part of like, she goes to a lot
40:25
Speaker 1: of plays and things like that and then becomes really
40:27
Speaker 1: good friends with a woman that's like an actress that's
40:30
Speaker 1: really well known in some kind of theater troupe. And
40:32
Speaker 1: she hosts this theater group and I don't know. There's
40:35
Speaker 1: speculation that maybe they had some kind of relationship going on.
40:38
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, obviously those aren't things that were,
40:41
Speaker 1: you know, talked about or written. If she did have
40:44
Speaker 1: some kind of lesbian affair with this actress, or I
40:48
Speaker 1: think in the Monsters version, I think that they depicted
40:52
Speaker 1: as Lizzie and the maid have some type of relationship.
40:57
Speaker 2: Oh, and now they're just trying to spruce it up.
40:59
Speaker 2: Sounds like. Right. Is that based on any reporting?
41:01
Speaker 1: No, because I'm saying, even if that were true, no
41:04
Speaker 1: one's writing about it or writing a diary about it
41:08
Speaker 1: or anything. There's no written proof or anything out there.
41:13
Speaker 1: June 1st of 1927. When was your dad born?
41:18
Speaker 2: No, he was born in the 40s.
41:19
Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden dies of pneumonia in Fall River at age 66.
41:24
Speaker 1: Then her sister, Emma, who moved out, dies nine days later.
41:27
Speaker 1: And both women are buried in the Borden family plot
41:30
Speaker 1: near Andrew and Abby.
41:31
Speaker 2: They die within 10 days of each other?
41:32
Speaker 1: Nine days. Her sister dies nine days later.
41:34
Speaker 2: I want to watch Now Monsters to compare your journalistic... Integrity.
41:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we'll watch it now.
41:43
Speaker 2: Against Netflix.
41:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just wanted to get out. I wanted to
41:46
Speaker 1: get the research and I wanted to get the facts
41:48
Speaker 1: out there so that we have an understanding. Okay, now
41:50
Speaker 1: that you know all of this, what do you think
41:51
Speaker 1: happened in that house? What is your interpretation?
41:53
Speaker 2: Lizzie killed her stepmom and dad.
41:56
Speaker 1: And do you think the maid was in on it?
41:58
Speaker 1: Do you think that she knew about it? Do you
42:00
Speaker 1: think she hoped?
42:01
Speaker 2: No, I don't know. That's one that I just don't know.
42:03
Speaker 2: I'd be making something up.
42:04
Speaker 1: I really don't know. How do you think she bludgeoned
42:07
Speaker 1: them both to death without getting any blood on herself?
42:10
Speaker 2: Well, no, I think she went and washed up. You do?
42:12
Speaker 1: What about the dress? You think she took it off somehow?
42:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, she probably swapped out a dress. I don't know.
42:16
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm not... I don't think that's too far-fetched.
42:19
Speaker 2: She just cleaned up.
42:21
Speaker 1: Yeah.
42:21
Speaker 2: And like you said earlier, they don't use a microscope
42:24
Speaker 2: to look at anything. They don't have special lighting. They
42:26
Speaker 2: don't really... they would take a glance. If they didn't
42:33
Speaker 2: see any blood, that was the end of it. Now
42:35
Speaker 2: it's like, Hey, we don't see any, but there may
42:38
Speaker 2: be a lot of blood, a lot of DNA, some fingerprints.
42:41
Speaker 2: So they don't touch anything. And then they, they, you know,
42:43
Speaker 2: examine it. So back then it was okay. So they
42:46
Speaker 2: didn't see any blood, like at first glance of her dress.
42:49
Speaker 2: And that's the end of it. Now they're going to say,
42:51
Speaker 2: take off the dress anyway. And they go through it
42:53
Speaker 2: with a fine tooth comb.
42:55
Speaker 1: Right. You know, some people speculate that maybe she murdered
42:58
Speaker 1: her stepmom and dad naked. So that she didn't have
43:02
Speaker 1: any blood splatter. And then she could quickly wash up
43:06
Speaker 1: and then throw a dress on.
43:07
Speaker 2: Maybe. We'll never know.
43:08
Speaker 1: We'll never know. And also, I think the maid helped.
43:12
Speaker 1: I think she knew.
43:14
Speaker 2: She cleaned up.
43:15
Speaker 1: I think she helped clean up.
43:16
Speaker 2: Yeah.
43:16
Speaker 1: I think it was such a short period of time.
43:18
Speaker 1: It's about an hour and a half.
43:20
Speaker 2: And you think the maid did it maybe just out
43:22
Speaker 2: of self-survival? Just to go along with it and just
43:26
Speaker 2: not upset her?
43:27
Speaker 1: Maybe she was an immigrant. You know, she.
43:30
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, this is a wealthy family.
43:32
Speaker 1: I think she just probably knew about it, helped in
43:36
Speaker 1: some way, and then.
43:37
Speaker 2: Like it was better just to go along with it
43:39
Speaker 2: and be on their side.
43:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then left and moved and went and lived.
43:42
Speaker 1: I think she went and lived, I forget. It's like
43:43
Speaker 1: Wyoming or something.
43:44
Speaker 2: She puts down the Bordens as a reference. Yeah. She's like,
43:47
Speaker 2: I'm very loyal to the families I serve.
43:50
Speaker 1: All right. So let's talk about the Netflix series, the
43:54
Speaker 1: monster series.
43:55
Speaker 2: Is this like an hour episode or how is the
43:57
Speaker 2: monster series?
43:58
Speaker 1: No, there's eight episodes.
43:59
Speaker 2: It's a dramatization across eight episodes?
44:02
Speaker 1: Eight episodes.
44:03
Speaker 2: Dang.
44:03
Speaker 1: I know.
44:04
Speaker 2: What are they talking about for eight episodes?
44:07
Speaker 1: I think they really, I haven't watched it yet. I'm
44:08
Speaker 1: going to watch it, but let's talk about, this is
44:10
Speaker 1: some of the, just some of the distinctions I found
44:12
Speaker 1: between the two.
44:13
Speaker 2: Okay.
44:14
Speaker 1: All right, so here's some details that the series did
44:18
Speaker 1: get correct. This is factually correct. Andrew and Abby were murdered.
44:21
Speaker 2: They got their names correct.
44:22
Speaker 1: They got their names right.
44:22
Speaker 2: The city's correct.
44:23
Speaker 1: They were murdered inside their Fall River home on August 4th, 1892.
44:27
Speaker 1: Emma Borden was away, and Bridget Sullivan, the maid, was
44:30
Speaker 1: inside the home. John Morse, this is the uncle that
44:33
Speaker 1: was staying in the guest room, was questioned but had
44:36
Speaker 1: a strong alibi. I know people saw him out and about.
44:39
Speaker 1: The wealthy Borden family experienced financial and personal tension, so
44:43
Speaker 1: we do know that. Lizzie gave inconsistent answers and burned
44:47
Speaker 1: a dress after the murders. We do know that. Lizzie
44:50
Speaker 1: was arrested, tried, and acquitted, and Lizzie and Emma later
44:53
Speaker 1: moved into a larger home called Maplecroft. Here are some
44:57
Speaker 1: details in the series that were changed or completely invented, right?
45:03
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
45:05
Speaker 1: The series portrays Lizzie as guilty, although the real case
45:09
Speaker 1: remains unsolved. There's no evidence to prove Lizzie and Bridget
45:13
Speaker 1: were lovers or committed the murders together. I guess they
45:17
Speaker 1: do show them as having some type of sexual relationship.
45:21
Speaker 2: That's just Netflix making up crap.
45:23
Speaker 1: Andrew's sexual relationship with Bridget and her pregnancy are fictional. Oh,
45:29
Speaker 1: so they make the dad have a relationship with the
45:31
Speaker 1: maid and then she's pregnant. See, that's all made up. Yeah,
45:35
Speaker 1: this is, um, Abby's physical abuse and extreme cruelty are exaggerated. Andrew,
45:41
Speaker 1: not Abby reportedly killed Lizzie's pigeons. I do know that
45:45
Speaker 1: there was something about Lizzie having pigeons and, um, I
45:49
Speaker 1: think her, um, dad had killed them for some reason.
45:53
Speaker 1: I don't know. That was some form of tension between them.
45:57
Speaker 1: There is no proof Lizzie poisoned the family before the murders. Oh, yeah,
46:00
Speaker 1: I do know that they did talk about and all
46:03
Speaker 1: this research that I did that the family that day
46:05
Speaker 1: of the murders was suffering from some kind of stomach issue.
46:08
Speaker 1: Like they all had some stomach issues. And they claimed
46:12
Speaker 1: Lizzie claimed to a neighbor that it was because they
46:14
Speaker 1: had some bad bread. But then also you can make
46:17
Speaker 1: the inference that maybe she had tried to poison them
46:19
Speaker 1: in some way. Yeah, I don't know. But there's no
46:22
Speaker 1: proof of that. Bertha Manchester was killed after the Borden
46:26
Speaker 1: murders while Lizzie was in jail. So I guess they're
46:29
Speaker 1: making some illusion that she could have been responsible for
46:31
Speaker 1: some other type of death. Lizzie met actress Nance O'Neill
46:35
Speaker 1: years after her trial. This is the, I was talking
46:37
Speaker 1: about how she was very into watching plays and being
46:41
Speaker 1: involved in theater troops. And she became very close to
46:44
Speaker 1: this famous actress at the time named Nance O'Neill. And
46:47
Speaker 1: there is no documented connection between Lizzie and Eileen Wuornos.
46:51
Speaker 2: All right.
46:51
Speaker 1: So that is the case, the story. It's actually, I
46:54
Speaker 1: guess it's a cold case of Lizzie Borden. And when
46:56
Speaker 1: I started researching it, I was, I'm going to tell you,
46:58
Speaker 1: I was so invested in this case and I read
47:00
Speaker 1: so much about it. I really thought I was going
47:02
Speaker 1: to solve it. I was like, I'm going to solve
47:05
Speaker 1: this case.
47:06
Speaker 2: You're going to find the evidence?
47:07
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just thought there's got to be
47:08
Speaker 1: something out there.
47:09
Speaker 2: So what'd you do? What'd you find?
47:10
Speaker 1: I mean, I just, she, there's no other person that
47:13
Speaker 1: could have done it. There's nobody else in the house
47:15
Speaker 1: and the doors are locked. There's no one seen. Like,
47:18
Speaker 1: first of all, there's about an hour and a half
47:20
Speaker 1: between the murders. So if it was someone else, someone
47:23
Speaker 1: else had to hang out in the house. They had
47:25
Speaker 1: to kill the stepmom upstairs and then hang out in
47:28
Speaker 1: the house for another hour, hour and a half, and
47:30
Speaker 1: then kill the dad when he came home.
47:33
Speaker 2: Well, that's when they could have been cleaning up.
47:34
Speaker 1: I mean, that could have been the devil or the maniac.
47:36
Speaker 1: I guess they could have been hiding in the house
47:38
Speaker 1: for that long and then committed both murders. At the
47:41
Speaker 1: end of the day, I'm sure it was Lizzie Borden
47:43
Speaker 1: that did it with the help of the maid. I
47:45
Speaker 1: just don't know how they got rid of the blood evidence. Maybe.
47:48
Speaker 2: They wiped it clean with a rag and then threw
47:50
Speaker 2: it in a bucket.
47:51
Speaker 1: And then said they were menstruating. Yes.
47:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
47:54
Speaker 1: All right.
47:54
Speaker 2: Well.
47:55
Speaker 1: I'm interested to see what everyone out there listening, what
47:57
Speaker 1: are your thoughts?
47:58
Speaker 2: Has anyone been to the bed and breakfast?
47:59
Speaker 1: I want to know that because I want to go now.
48:01
Speaker 2: Like, is it advertised as a bed and breakfast where
48:04
Speaker 2: Lizzie Borden committed murder?
48:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, it says, there's a sign out front that says
48:07
Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden bed and breakfast. And then there's a museum
48:10
Speaker 1: part of it where you can see photographs of the
48:12
Speaker 1: crime scene and newspaper articles.
48:15
Speaker 2: Oh.
48:15
Speaker 1: And you can go to the room where she was murdered.
48:18
Speaker 1: And I believe the couch where the dad was murdered
48:20
Speaker 1: is still there. And you can sleep there. I don't
48:22
Speaker 1: want to sleep there. I told you that. I don't
48:24
Speaker 1: want to stay there. I just want to visit. All right. Anyway,
48:28
Speaker 1: if anyone has been there, let me know. You can
48:30
Speaker 1: find me on Instagram. I love to get feedback from
48:32
Speaker 1: you guys. Also, if you've watched the Monsters version, what
48:35
Speaker 1: did you think about it? Shane and I are going
48:38
Speaker 1: to watch it. We'll see. We'll let you know. I
48:40
Speaker 1: guess I have to watch it now. I'm going to
48:42
Speaker 1: watch it. Eight episodes. We're going to have to do it.
48:45
Speaker 2: All right.
48:45
Speaker 1: Thank you guys for listening to Legally Brunette. We appreciate it.
48:48
Speaker 1: As always, please follow Legally Brunette wherever you listen to podcasts.
48:52
Speaker 1: And if you have any recommendations of cases you would
48:54
Speaker 1: like us to talk about, please find me on Instagram
48:56
Speaker 1: and send me a message. I love to hear from you.