Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / Our Worst Fears Have Been Confirmed || Lee Furney: Survivor of Jonathan Fletcher Abuse Scandal || SLP354

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Our Worst Fears Have Been Confirmed || Lee Furney: Survivor of Jonathan Fletcher Abuse Scandal || SLP354 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Glenn Scrivener.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Last week, Emmanuel Church Wimbledon released the Independent Lessons Learned review concerning Jonathan Fletcher, who was vicar there between 1982 and 2012.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: In the 146-page review carried out by Safeguarding Charity 318, 27 survivors of Fletcher disclosed abuse.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: One of those survivors has waived anonymity.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: He's spoken to the Telegraph, to Channel 4 News, and on the Speak Life Podcast, he speaks to us.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: His name is Lee Fernie, and we really must listen to his wisdom.
• 0:38
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• 0:41
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• 0:45
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• 0:50
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• 0:55
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• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, you can watch these interviews that I'm doing, and uh on our YouTube channel you'll be able to see Lee Fernie.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you'll also be able to see our latest playlist, of which this episode is just one.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: We are investigating issues to do with church abuse, and uh there are interviews there with Lorianne Thompson, with Steve Boffman, who first broke the Ravi Zacharias case, with uh Sam Albury, with Dr.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Diane Langberg, with Becca Legg, and uh many others.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you won't want to miss out on the wisdom there, and the best place to catch all those interviews is on our YouTube channel.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's youtube.com slash speaklifemedia.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, to today's episode, I speak to Lee Fernie, who not only worked for Jonathan Fletcher, but also lived with Jonathan Fletcher and can let us know what the dynamics of abuse look like, up close and personal, and they are ugly.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, a trigger warning for you if you have experienced any kind of church abuse, spiritual abuse, physical abuse, uh, we are speaking about confronting issues, but we want to give a voice to survivors, and Lee's voice is one that really must be heard.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I speak to him while he is in South Africa on holiday.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Ordinarily he is in Malawi, helping uh with a church there.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I begin by asking him about the Independent Lessons Learned review, about its 146 pages, and how he would summarize the findings of that review.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we waited uh quite a long time, fairly short uh in some respects for the amount of uh material that they had to cover.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um but the report says clearly that um the our fears, our worst fears really have been uh um confirmed that Jonathan Fletcher uh was an abuser uh for a very long time.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he was an abuser in a in a religious context, but also in a domestic setting, and that abuse was physical, psychological, and sexual in its nature, and all under a spiritual veneer, so using God's name and God's word in order to get what he wants, which people are calling spiritual abuse these days.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So Jonathan Fletcher himself was considered uh a bit of a statesman in the UK evangelical Anglican world.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um Emmanuel Church Wimbledon, considered very much a flagship kind of uh church in uh southwest London there.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um what was your experience of both the man and the church prior to 1997 when you joined them?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I didn't know the church uh much at all.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: I got a job in uh in Wimbledon and uh was working uh there in a secular job and uh was looking for a church to go to, and there was a couple of options, and I tried Emmanuel Wimbledon, and uh number one, I met an old friend there, and number two, uh there was a great preacher um called Mike Kane who was there at the time, and um anything else that was happening um in the church was fairly irrelevant.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to be in a place where I could be fed uh with God's word and and built up after really a time of uh struggling and uh and backsliding.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um so at that time it was a joyful time.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there were a number of good people around, uh not just on the staff, uh, but also uh in the congregation, uh, very warm, very godly, very hospitable.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so really a joyful time for the first few years that I was there.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so for three years you you're working in business in London and uh a member of the congregation there, and then it's in 2000 that you uh joined, was it their apprenticeship program?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: What did they call that?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the words been used at the time was pastoral um trying to remember myself, pastoral assistance was what we were called.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I was a pastoral assistant for two years.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: At that time, half of the week was working for a Bible training uh scheme called the Cornhill Training Course, very good course, and the other half was a placement at the actual church itself.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And while you were there in that role, uh you were a lodger with Jonathan Fletcher himself, is that right?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it felt like an honor to be asked to um be on the course and to take on the uh apprenticeship.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um financially it wasn't an honor, but uh, in terms of um yeah, um the experience uh was it was a good place uh to be.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and then it was thought that we were receiving uh a couple of us the the double vo double honour of uh sharing a house with Jonathan and uh his reputation was you know sky high.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: People thought he was the best preacher around and uh certainly had a lot of clouts, and um so we just thought it would it'd be a good place to learn uh with uh a spiritual mentor.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you're in some senses as a member of the congregation um you you didn't get uh the inside view of of leadership at the church.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is is that that that fair?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and if it is, you know, what what became the difference between the the view from a member of the congregation to the view that you then had um as a member of staff?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so as a a member of the congregation, obviously you you get a different uh perspective and um what's going on in front of the um if you think of the sort of theatre, what's going on in front of the curtain should really be behind the curtain just the same.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um but um yeah, I guess we've all got a bit of a difference between our public uh and our private face, and that was certainly true uh of sharing a house with uh Jonathan Fletcher.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And as you became not not only uh a member of staff, you you were also going to be uh Jonathan's lodger.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how how did that relationship sort of begin and and what what was the dynamic to begin with?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right, so on first approach, even before you got in the house, um there was a sort of um meet and greets uh by the garden gate and uh terms and conditions uh laid out.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and literally the first thing that was said to me, I think quite often to others as well, is that loyalty uh was everything.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: But we weren't talking about loyalty to the Lord Jesus, we were talking about loyalty to Jonathan in a personal sense, and that's probably the time that um if I knew what I knew now, uh rather than being a younger person, that I would have uh had some serious alarm bells that was mentioned.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh first of all, great charm, uh great charisma.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: So um the first thing was loyalty, the second thing was laugh at my jokes, uh, and then it was said that's really loyalty as well, and we'd chuckle together, and um and so on and so forth.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you had this sort of strong loyalty commitment, and coming from someone who was such a sort of respected Bible teacher, uh statesman within the community, that it was embedded in your brain that whatever happened and whatever you know went on, the loyalty to him was identified with your spiritual health and your growth and your um future ministry, and that becomes very hard to undo.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: You were a little bit older than most of the other pastoral assistants, is that right?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I would have been going in 30 years old, and many would have been sort of early 20s, uh, straight after university.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a little bit older, uh, a little bit more experience, I guess.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so how how did things develop as you you do your your two years, both as a lodger and and as a as a worker for the church?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: What what were the the first alarm bells that started to ring?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well things started very well.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um at that time David Jackman was leading the Cornhill training course and um was I was really lapping up the teaching, and um I think in terms of knowledge things were dropping into place, you know, so my eyes, you know, what were sort of popping at to how things fitted together.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very exciting uh time.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh also there was a real model around me of some very godly people at the church, and in many ways it was very uh healthy church.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think I've said elsewhere that it's a little bit like um being in the snow as a kit, and the snow's falling, it's very beautiful, and it's very white and pure, uh, and then you realise after a while that's some dirty, slushy bits, and there's some crevasses that people are falling down.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: So you had both the good stuff and the bad stuff together.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: So as much as I was getting on well with the course, and in fact, I'll go back and talk there for six or seven years afterwards, and then planted a Bible college for them in in West Africa.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that bit was going well.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Relationally, it was going well with um uh friends uh in the church and uh old Anne Young, um, and then in the house as well, um, was greatly appreciated by Jonathan at first, and everyone was patting me on the back and saying, You're doing great, he's a difficult and intimidating man to get on with, but you know, he's really happy with you.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, unfortunately, he was a little bit too happy with me.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so what you'd want to do is uh have a meeting with your mentor.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but I quickly found out that if I wanted to meet with him, that it would involve playing squash or tennis in order to have a conversation with him outside of the staff meeting, which I'm a sporty person, and uh you know that's in in many ways good and fine, uh, but is it's quite irritating in a job role if you have to uh dance to that song.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so we played squash uh or tennis.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I played football of the weekend, and there was you know it was normal to have sort of you know group showers after sport, so didn't bat an eyelid uh showering off after the game, although it's a little bit odd with a guy who's you know older than you and is is your boss and starts making some odd comments about people's bodies, and then he'd be pressing to have a sauna uh after the shower, which I'm not really a fan of saunas, uh, but you know, went along for 10 minutes and then, yeah, I'm done, let's let's let's get out of the sauna.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but Fletcher was pressing for nude saunas, I wasn't on for that, and also a couple of times he tried to persuade me to have a professional massage.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so here was the gambus, here's this you know, statesman of um the constituency saying, uh, you want to know what's you know what what are the lessons that I need to learn?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: What do I need to learn?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: And uh he said, Well, I don't think I could manage the stress of ministry uh without a professional uh massage, and I strongly recommend that to you as well.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: And rather than saying, Oh, great, I'll I'll I'll do that, I just I laughed in his face and said, you know, that's not something that I'm interested in, and so I wouldn't find that helpful at all.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought he'd you know laughed that off and would move on to the next subjects, but instead he had a a face like thunder.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um Fletcher was a classicist, and I used to misquote the the classics in order to annoy him later on in the the I stay there.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I used to say that he had the face that would launch a a thousand ships, uh, but not in order to um to greet Helena Troy, but uh to get away, and he had this sort of thunderous face, this hard stare, and I couldn't work out why he was clearly very, very angry with me when I failed on the sauna gambits, uh on the massage gambits, and tried again, same response, and that was the breaking point, really, and I didn't see that clearly uh until you know a decade or two afterwards that it was saying no there that meant that his whole demeanour and our relationship basically fell apart at that point.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So he was taking you down what you've since learned was a well-worn track of you know the the the game of tennis and the shower and the sauna and the massage, and he was hoping for um yeah the if if you had said yes to a professional massage, perhaps down the track he could say, Well, why don't we save the money and and and and we can massage each other.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is that is that where the that that track was meant to be heading on his view?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that that is where the track led for for many people, and it's obviously very grievous to to to think back and and think of the the damage that he's done to individuals and the way that he's um messed people up and some people are in a real state because of that's um willful manipulation.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that was part of the the abuse that was going on um behind closed doors, and um you you uh and as I say, I I I do wonder whether you you being 30 is is a little bit different to if if you were 22 or a or or a different, you know, y younger person with slightly less experience.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: You you slammed on the brakes there um when if the power differential was was greater, it would have been even more difficult for for somebody to do that.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so people can read the review and and get a sense of uh where some of these things went.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: But but Lee, can you give us a sense of where where did it end up for for some of your colleagues?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think firstly to say, you know, no uh credit to me, I think you know that's the experience that got it uh uh put me through it and and arrived a little bit later.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: But also done some um lived in the inner city in a in a couple of um cities and um and more from a working class um uh background, I guess sort of second generation, and uh a little bit more angular and a little bit more willing to um confront people in a direct way rather than an indirect people, and that's been a great weakness of mine, as people who've met me uh will know.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but also in this case it acted as a as a bit of a strength.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: So uh others uh found themselves moving through these hoops, and um Fletcher had tried to normalise touch, so he'd um it was the banter first of all to see whether you could um joke around, he'd then try and give you maybe a Chinese burn to see whether he could introduce some touching into that.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and he used to like to try and get people to play fight as well, and so he was just moving people through these hoops that we can see so clearly now, but obviously, you know, people you know didn't see at the time and uh and and no fault of their own.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so what happened would be that he'd um have these rituals of uh nude massages, there'd be a fire in his office, uh there'd be massage uh oil, and um there'd be a an accountability conversation.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh sometimes it was one-to-one stuff, sometimes there was an accountability group, which just make a note there thinking, oh, if we're starting to think that accountability groups are the answer to make healthy cultures, then we have to think carefully uh about um maybe something more is needed than just accountability groups.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um what he then did was introduce forfeits uh with what he did um with one-to-one and in these groups, and if you didn't meet your targets, this was usually after invasive questions about masturbation, and uh if you didn't meet your targets, uh then he would suggest uh spanking you with a gym shoe, I believe, is what people received uh very much John Smythe-like, same sort of obsession with masturbation, same beating, uh just in different uh instruments.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and instead of using um the garden shed that Smythe used, uh Fletcher used the the garage.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: It was always strange that he wanted the garage clean and there was no car inside, and that seemed to be one of the places that he used uh to beat people.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And there were some people, there's one uh very brave person uh mentioned in the report, uh, 27 victims.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: There are many, many more victims that aren't in that report.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, people didn't have confidence to report to 31 uh Ace, uh they needed reassurances to speak to them, let alone to speak to Emmanuel the scene of their abuse.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so there are more sexual victims and more physical abuse victims and more psychological abuse victims there.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: So what we're seeing is the the tip of the iceberg of those um who have had the courage really uh to come forward and to say that something happened to them.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: How did he relate to women?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, were were there many pastoral assistants who who were women as well?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, he I mean he can't be giving Chinese burns to to the women as well as the men, or was he?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or like like what was that was there a difference there?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it would really it would be really good to hear some you know a woman give the answer to that rather than me giving answer for them.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think from the from what I know um women would find him intimidating too, but he could also be very charming, so he had a very good relationship uh with some women, and there was um a lot of um politeness and manners and a lot of flattery.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it would look that they were had were were put on the pedestal and treated well, uh, but actually they were largely uh disempowered and uh often spoken about in very uh derogatory terms behind their backs, and that's uh a source of um some pain.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and interestingly, it was often women that spotted that there was a problem with Jonathan Fletcher.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was uh women speaking to the men saying something's not right here, and they were the ones who could see through him and most clearly, and and actually speaking to women myself um at that time and afterwards has probably been the most helpful and healing thing uh that I've done in getting that, you know, we need each other, let's listen to the women and uh and not marginalize them like he did.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I've I've often experienced that too, that they have uh many women in my life have had much better antennae for predatory men.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess um we can we can guess the reasons for that.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um but so uh you got off the train, the the train he was trying to get you on, this this grooming process, and then you said you know, the the second time you said uh a firm no to the massage, um things became much more difficult for you.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Can ex can you explain any of that?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right, so again, many years uh later, reading some um good books on this sort of stuff you work out and the tricks that abusers uh use, and one of the guys who's written very well is a guy called Wade Mullen.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: He's writing from his own experience but also from further research afterwards, and he talks about there being cubicles of charm and crucibles of condemnation.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you start off um with the charm offensive, and you're basically getting love bombs.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: So here's a guy who's teaching you, and he's actually desensitizing you to what he's actually doing because he's he I wouldn't know what the phrase heavy shepherding meant unless Jonathan had taught me about it.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't have known the tricks that cults use unless Jonathan Fletcher taught me about it, and then he uses those same tricks himself.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: So you think could this couldn't be happening to me.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: But basically he took you uh into this cubicle uh charm and tried to make you know that you were you were the one.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so I mean it's ridiculous, really.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, I was being told within a few months that you know I may well be his successor in Emmanuel Wimbledon, and um you know, I was laughing to myself at the time, I thought it was um preposterous and uh thought he was too loose with his words, but he'd flatter people, he'd play favourites, and then when he didn't get what he wanted, he'd move you from that cubicle of charm, and all of a sudden you win the crucible of condemnation, and so you'd be isolated, you'd be humiliated privately but also publicly in the staff meeting, uh sometimes uh from the front of the church as well.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um you found yourself having uh less ministry opportunities, uh so not allowed to preach.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um you were given responsibilities still, but your authority for those responsibilities were withdrawn, so it was very hard to deliver on your responsibilities without uh authority, and so you were put on the naughty step, and other people around knew that you're on the naughty step um and colluded with us.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: And if Jonathan thought it was a thumbs down for you, well what Jonathan said went at Emmanuel Wilmerden, and uh it didn't go well for you.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because in in the report it it speaks obviously the there's the kind of abuse that happens behind closed doors.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: There was also it it said sort of bullying and domineering behaviour that was hidden in plain sight.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um even in prayer meetings, it would say, and you're you're saying even even during church, there there are ways in which you uh the the light is being shone on you in uncomfortable ways.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um can you can you give any examples of you know staff meetings?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is is he really d bullying domineering in front of everybody else?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so the point is this is that he doesn't just groom an individual, he grooms a whole church, and Jonathan Fletcher managed to groom a whole church constituent.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's Pied Piper stuff, really.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so using his um pedigree, uh using his uh charm, using his intellects, he was able to have what someone described as an iron grip, but with a with a velvet glove, and so he managed to sort of polish over the blows that he was delivering, and um and they were clear.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, anyone with their eyes open uh could see that you were getting humiliated and beaten up and should have spoken out, um, but there was just enough um fear really that stopped people doing that, and um if you're gonna be a a church minister, uh you need to be able to to cope with fear and to get over that.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: But people would say things, would they not?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they they would report inappropriate behaviour, would they not?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um how how was that being handled?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: So there's been a a series of complaints for a very long uh time.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: Before me, a staff member um was saying to one of the wardens uh week after week uh in their um accountability group uh that uh Fletcher was bullying them, and uh that was the prayer request every single week that the staff member was there, and the warden said, You want me to do something about it?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: And the staff member said, No, I'll deal with it myself.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so they tried to deal with uh with Fletcher um themselves, and we're told that it didn't go well, um, but nothing happened, um, it was let go.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so that's what happened before me.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, when uh I was there, um things were getting really bad, and so I made a complaint and said that I was being victimized and he was playing favourites, and this was unacceptable.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: I was told this person had claimed complained before and it hadn't gone well, I was advised not to complain.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was told that I should be incredibly grateful to be there.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's a real privilege to be at this church and think what it would do for my career, and Jonathan's not somebody that you want to uh obsess if you want to get on with uh with your career.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: So just to um just to play ball, really.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh another uh minister there used a cricket analogy and said uh don't try to hit him for six, but play uh a straight bats and just defend your wickets, uh so to speak, uh, rather than try and do anything here.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I think that's a good thing.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: At that stage Jonathan Fletcher is Kurtley Ambrose trying to trying to bounce you and you're and you're being told, yeah.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you haven't got pads on, you haven't got pads on or a cricket helmet, yeah.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're taking the blows, and the staff team uh are telling you, look, it's gonna be good for your future if you don't say anything here, you don't want to say anything.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Keep this guy happy, and that's literally being told to you.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Keep this guy happy, you'll be here for a couple of years, take the blows, and then after that, you're gonna be set.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: You you you're gonna have made it because you've done an apprenticeship at Emmanuel Wimbledon, and we're the best church around.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's what was being said.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: I complained again and again.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: I got to such a bad stage, I said, Look, it feels like I'm having my head kicked in here, it's just absolutely unbearable.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you're seeing this is not just happening in private, this is happening in staff meetings, so literal humiliation, um, treating people like you know, or treating me like an absolute, you know, child and very demeaning behaviour.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the rest of the staff, they're always junior staff, but the senior staff there, my line manager, uh, and there was someone between him and Fletcher, refused to do anything, they wouldn't say a word to Jonathan.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: They laughed at his jokes, they nodded their heads, and um he had this iron grip.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hence, safeguarding wisdom is that the there must be external bodies that you can kind of go to be because abusers can uh can groom like whole organizations.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess one of the features is that um Emmanuel Wimbledon was a proprietary trap chapel within the Anglican setup and sat incredibly loosely to the diocesan structures, which it seems I I I don't know about back in you know the early 2000s what their safeguarding was like, but it had to have been better than that, hadn't it?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Or I mean like yeah, what's what what are the dynamics going on such such that you feel so alone in that one place and there's no one outside to keep you safe?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we're less cleared up about the whole safeguarding thing at that stage, but from the business world, I need to ask who was my line manager, who could I make a complaint with?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to make a complaint to the church, and then I was asking about the structure of the church and how this worked, and uh everybody, no, you know, no one wanted any interest, no one wanted any part of this, and it wasn't just a question of um we're not going to take this forward, but it was also a question of um there's no sympathy for you, you're the one who's got the problem here, and so you then think, okay, do I take it to the diocese of Southwark?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but week in, week out, in staff meetings, the Diocese of Southwark was being run into the ground, um, usually on theological uh terms, sometimes on other terms.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: So you were basically being told that if you went to them about anything, that is effectively becoming apostate.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, no good thing could come from uh Southwark.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: So you had a very invidious choice that you either you know had to try and um yeah soak things up at a manual or or basically you had to leave.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I had a very decent, uh highly paid job before that.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'd gone from you know, at that point, you know, 30,000, 40,000 or something uh down to 4,000 pounds to work at Emmanuel Wimbledon and non-Christian family and thought I'd gone mad.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the last thing that I want to do is to to say to them, this hasn't worked out.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, I've been a fool here.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and because things are going so well with the Bible training and the wider sphere, um, thought, okay, let's just try and find a way to get through this nightmare without any support and and felt completely isolated.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: And years later, you then find out that the next person and the next person and the next person went through the same experience.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: They also made complaints to the same staff team, and they were also uh given the same advice uh just to keep quiet and look after your future.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, real systemic failures we're talking about here.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um help us with that that issue of the systemic failure, because it's it's just so tempting to think about the one bad apple and to isolate the one bad apple and to say, thank thank goodness that's over, and not to address the systemic.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: That would be a mistake, wouldn't it?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think we want to be careful with these things that we don't start with, okay, I'm gonna you know work out what systemic problems uh look like and then fill in the boxes.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we want to be fairly provisional with these things.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think that's true.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's when you looked at the the wider culture, the wider culture, it's a very um uh closely defined culture of who's around and the backgrounds that uh people are coming from here.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: But the culture was basically a sergeant-major-like culture, and you were there to obey orders, and if you were to to question anything, then you were the problem.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: So any criticism was unsustainable.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: There wasn't a recognition of um God has equipped a team here to work together, and we all need to be humble in order to uh to share criticism, especially if you were a partial apprentice, that would be true.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: That, as you say, we're set into the context of the war was against um you know the liberals or or or other targets, so you're fighting a battle together with your sergeant major, and any comment that you had that was a criticism, you know, what were you doing?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: This is wartime, we're all you know fighting the same vice, and this is mutiny if you say anything uh is wrong.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Back to the loyalty thing.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: There were sixty-six recommendations um from the 31-8 um review.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um what do you think are some of the more important ones?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm sure they're all important, but uh what what would you draw attention to?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right, so I mean the interesting thing is it's the review isn't primarily into Jonathan Fletcher and Emmanuel Wimbledon, but in the the terms of reference, uh which are quite limited, there is some mention of the the wider culture, and uh and certainly the review has made that link, and as you say, it's not just a question of one bad apple that apples grow on trees, and there needs to be root and branch reform in order to form healthier cultures.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't just Jonathan Fletcher that created um a climate of fear, uh it was the wider culture as well.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: There needs to be a wider repentance, and when I say that I don't mean that everybody says, yes, we're all sorry, but individuals say I've treated people in this way, and I'm sorry uh for what I've done.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so to start the ball rolling, uh, let me do that and say, you know, I went into Emmanuel Wilmerden uh with um shot corners and angles, and in some ways was helped greatly uh in my spirituality through being on the course and the healthy people that were around me there.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but also some things were made worse uh through my time there and uh came away, and I think I'd learnt to be uh if I wasn't getting my way and uh people weren't respecting my leadership or something like that, became forceful with people, and I need to repent of that personally, and I'm I'm I'm happy to say that to people that um I'm not the goody and everyone else is the baddies, or I'm not the goody and and Fletcher's the the baddie, uh, but we all need to look at ourselves and own up to this stuff, and that's unacceptable in our circles that leaders don't express where they've made failures and where they've got it wrong.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: They're very slow to do that because vulnerability is not something that we prize, and biblically speaking, humility and vulnerable vulnerability and recognize our own weakness is highly prized.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we've got a cultural problem there that we need to encourage each other and make it safe for each other to say, listen, you know, we want to create a space where people are able to to to repent and and to recognise their own weakness.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Of course that doesn't fit the soldier mould, does it?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if if church is a training camp and not a hospital, which um seems to have been quite quite close to Jonathan Fletcher's heart in in terms of how he saw the kind of church, um, then then that that entire paradigm for what church and spirituality and the Christian life looks like um needs needs uh a fresh look, wouldn't you say?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yes, and in you know Jonathan himself uh products of a camp system where people record officers and adjutants and and military terms.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the you know the hospital analogy would be a much uh healthier uh analogy of uh how we're to um to act ourselves um and also how we're to view other people.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: So what what do you hope we can learn um from this um review?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's come out, it's 146 pages, as I've said, there are there are 66 um recommendations.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do you have do you have hope that we can learn these lessons?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Probably need to pause and to think um what's gonna happen next.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: I can't predict the future and uh I'm I'm only responsible um for myself.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think we need a a time of of prayer and reflection to really take on board uh what's being said here.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there's certainly some very strong uh recommendations.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the early signs are disappointing that people are getting their excuses in uh of what they knew and uh what they did or didn't do, and and trying to distance themselves uh from this.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um the word sorry is being used a lot, but without any contents or without any people that's being addressed to.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: We're sorry for everything and to everybody.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: And when you say that you're sorry for everything to everybody, that's not being sorry at all.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's not repentance and that's manipulation.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's what we've seen at the start of things, and so I think we need to press the pause button at this point of view and say, let's not worry first of all about how this plays out, but let's pause and see what's really being said here.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: There was an independent advisory group that worked alongside the review, and they highlighted some of the issues that needed to really be taken hold of by the constituency, and I think would do very well in order in in listening to what they say.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: So Lee, what why have you done what you've done?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: You've you've waived your anonymity, you've spoken to the telegraph, spoken to Channel 4 News.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um what have what have been your hopes in telling your story?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well the goal really is is restoration.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: We want to see people restored and going back to the hospital analogy again, unless we identify the cancer and make sure that the surgery is performed, then there isn't going to be uh um healthy life uh going forwards.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so I thought it would be helpful uh to speak up.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Victims' voices is a difficult thing to do because you're having to speak through other people, um, and I felt that I was uh in a position uh where I was able to uh to speak up a little bit for others.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um at the time I spoke up at a manual, uh people started then coming to me and saying, Hey, you we remember you speaking up, we remember that you you complained about these things, and um I'm no official victim representative, um, but I do speak to uh a lot of victims, and I mean um scores of victims rather than uh two or three, and you know, felt that I needed to give a voice for victim concerns.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you you went to Channel 4 News and and uh Kathy Newman, uh the the the famous one who who took on Jordan Peterson and and um you know she was the one who interviewed you.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, there might be some people who think, and certainly within a mentality that says our church has the truth, and all those outside you need to worry about.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, even other Christians are liberal and beyond the pale, let alone, you know, the world, let alone Channel 4 News.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it it occurs to me that the the light that these outside bodies are shining on the church should be should be welcomed, uh wouldn't you say?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that, yes, I think we need to to recognise God's uh common grace.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh obviously I didn't jump very quickly to go to the secular media media took 20 years um to do that, and the reason why I did that, because we couldn't address it within the camp.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um again, it is uh unsustainable to uh to bring a complaint, even with this you know, recognition of all of the Smythe abuse, all of the Fletcher abuse, people were still you know battening down the hatches, and you know if Israel wanted to learn their own lessons, then you get carted off to Babylon and they teach you humility until there is proper repentance.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: And the great surprise was that dealing with the telegraph, uh dealing with uh Channel 4, there were people there who would stop at nothing, uh, not really to bring down conservative evangelicalism, but to get to the truth that people genuinely wanted to know you know what had happened here and for victims to be helped, and victims are gonna only be helped if the light comes in.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: We've got nothing to fear with the lights.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Let's make sure that we get the lid off and the light in, and uh the journalists uh have been very good with that.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: You've spoken Lee about uh wanting to see hope and healing and restoration.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um who is who is restoration for and and how does it happen?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think primarily things need to be victim focused.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: I hope that it's no surprise uh for me to to say that.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that happens when we talk about these issues is we can spend a lot of time, and the reviews spend a lot of time talking about abusers, but really we want to be uh speaking about um victims and uh and and making sure that they get the help and the hope and the the healing that they need.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um so there needs to be restoration there, but we want everyone to be restored, there's no person that we don't want to see uh healthy uh in their relationship with the Lord Jesus.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so people will have played uh various different roles here.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there's people who are um victims or survivors, there's people who are enablers uh to some degree, uh, some people who are both victims and enablers, and some people who are uh basically you know right-hand men uh or co-conspirators with Fletcher, and even Jonathan himself want to see him to come to a place of you know true repentance and reconciliation with the Lord Jesus, and uh we're not talking about becoming best friends with everybody, but we want to make sure that there is um health for for every person.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is not about vindictiveness, this is about this is about restoration for all.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, even even Fletcher.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's about l it's about loving people, and that when we don't deal with abuse properly, and that we try to deal with it, either push it under the carpet, or we deal with it quickly, or we think that we've had a review, so therefore we can move on with things now, and that isn't giving us the the the help that we need.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: We have to deal with it thoroughly, and we won't be able to deal with everything, um, but we must make sure that there really is um that we keep taking the antibiotics and it's works its way through, but that we do the whole course here rather than just try and try and do a quick fix and move on like we did before, otherwise, you know, you get another smile, and obviously Fletcher is uh very close to uh another smile that will keep repeating itself, uh, but also the stuff which is less sensational that doesn't make it to uh the papers, uh we need to make sure that we really get to to grips with what's gone wrong here.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what would you say to um victims of abuse who for very understandable reasons find it incredibly difficult to a trust Jesus again and and b trust his people again?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um what what hope is there for a person in in that situation?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think first of all I want to say you know sorry and uh and to um to grieve with them and to lament to lament with them and uh not rush to give them quick answers, um, and to know that I'm sure the Lord Jesus uh cries uh with them and uh want to be very patient with them uh with their brokenness.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think spending time with people is important and making sure that um you relate well to people and that you listen, that you listen to their story, and that one of the most healing things for a victim is to be listened and even better understood by somebody who gets it.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: You listened, you understood, and you got in that is wonderfully healing for people.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, with these models of ministries that we've got where we want to be successful churches, we haven't got a lot of time for people, and we haven't got a lot of time for broken people, but the Lord Jesus had lots of time for broken people, so that would be one of the first things that we could do for people is to take time with people to listen and to get it, and if we do that, not only will we help them, but we'll also help the constituency as well.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: One of the other things that we can do is also reflect a bit more deeply theologically and thinking where is our theology gone wrong here?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: What where is our wrong view of um of God, of the church, of ministry, uh of preaching, of spiritual formation, and uh that will be something that we can do to help people in the future, uh, as well as uh the appropriate safeguarding messages.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we need to do the externals, but we also need to do the internals, and we also need to do that vertical relationship as well as the horizontal.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: Which is something that that has been a bit lacking in in our constituency, I I I would say, and and especially because we're an incredibly pragmatic bunch um who are soldiers for Christ and not long till glory, just be godly, and um pushing on, pressing on in service for the Lords, and we've got a ministry philosophy, and a very developed ministry philosophy that kind of defines um who or who does not belong to to our constituency.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: But but I d I do find a real lack in that rich theology and spirituality.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um so what what have you what have you been learning over the last few years as you as you've been reflecting on on this?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Where where has your theology and your your spirituality um grown as as you've seen that that lack in um your previous experiences?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I'm still learning.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still learning, and um, you know, there's lots to learn.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's lots not just for me to learn but for everybody else as well.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think Um when you go through some of these experiences, uh again recognizing God's hand is that is is in order to to to break you, in order to to reform you and to trust God with that work and to try and see what He's doing and to have people that can speak into your life and uh encourage you in that way.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and to be patient with that.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think coming through as a younger guy, it was all about learning models of ministry and uh multiplying churches and um it actually was very businesslike whereas you know what I've been learning is um getting back to the basics and you know my relationship with the Lord Jesus, uh the Holy Spirit's work in my life and making sure that there's healthy spiritual formation going on and being a real um that being the fountain of of everything else and then sticking with that and expressing to people um the journey that you've been on, your vulnerability, your weakness.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: You're not trying to be a a big name pastor or to grow things quickly, but you're just planting these tiny little seeds and praying that God's gonna do something because you know that you're powerless to do anything.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: When we are weak, then we are strong.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um very wise words to finish on.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Lee, I I think uh you've been uh very courageous uh in speaking out and not only uh speaking for victims, um but um standing up and and and shining that light into dark places.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a costly thing um that you've done and are doing, but I I see so much Jesus in it, and uh I pray that it's for the health and healing of the body.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um Lee, thanks so much for joining us.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Glenn.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for what you're doing too.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: Keep going.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I learned a lot from Lee Fernie listening to his wisdom during that episode.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you were the same.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you have any questions, comments, or feedback, please email us at infospeaklife.org.uk.
• 46:04
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• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: We are facebook.com slash speaklifeuk.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: We really hope that you've been helped by our ministry.
• 46:14
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• 46:17
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• 46:23
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• 46:30
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• 46:35
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• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: But we do wish you a very happy Easter.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now is the time when we remember Jesus, our friend in the darkness, and the one who pioneered our future in the light.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's the name of two new Easter videos that we have released on both YouTube and Facebook, Friend in the Darkness and Future in the Light.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: They have come about through a couple of talks that I gave for the Hope for Easter CD that's being uh distributed among tens of thousands of people around the country.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we're so thrilled that we've now made them into a couple of videos that you can share with your friends.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Go to our Facebook page and find the videos, give it a share, because linked to it is our Easter outreach, EastermeansHope.com.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: And through EastermeansHope.com, people can order my book, Divine Comedy, as an Easter giveaway book.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it will introduce people to that central question: what is life?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a tragedy or is it a comedy?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Easter means that Jesus has uh endured our tragedy, that we might have his divine comedy.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: So find ways on our Facebook page of uh sharing those videos, direct people to the EastermeansHope.com page, and we hope that this Easter outreach will reach many.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: Already dozens of people are ordering the book, and we pray that many, many more will.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you pray that people encounter real Easter hope at this time of year?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for joining us on the Speak Life Podcast, and we look forward to joining you again next week.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: God bless.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: Goodbye.