Latest / The Magic Guys / Helder Guimarães Hangs Out With The Magic Guys LIVE! #287

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Helder Guimarães Hangs Out With The Magic Guys LIVE! #287 · The Magic Guys

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They're guys they do magic they are the magic guys we are the magic guys we
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have been for how many episodes josh norbedo,
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this is episode 287 of the magic guys it keeps getting bigger,
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bigger and better and the trio are all here freshly shaven heads just for today
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this is the magic way today's kind of like my day off,
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you can always tell how doug is feeling by the the yeah the length of his beard
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that's how busy he's been if it's but yeah if i'd been in public i've i went
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out in public yesterday and today i was like even for help,
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when i have like a week off you can tell because like yeah it gets a little
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bit you know a little bit bushy nick how How are you feeling today,
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my friends? This is a big day.
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Feeling good and healthy, man. It is an exciting day.
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We almost didn't believe that today was even possible. We were like,
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this is too good to be true. Like we were like.
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Is this really going to happen? Is our guest really? Come on. Yeah.
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Turns out it is. Well, and we're so glad you guys could join us in the chat.
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Nick, who we got streaming live with us today.
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That's right, friends. We do have a chat and you can punch in your questions
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there for today's very special guest. We have our Magic Community channel.
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We have our buddy, Tim Askin, those questions. We have a Rob P.
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That's cool. We also have a Saur. Yeah, we have Gerhan.
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We have Matty Magic and Scotty Link. Good to see you, brother man.
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So friends, this is a live show. We are off the cuff, which gives you the ability
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to ask your questions live and in direct to our guests today. I'll see you next time.
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So I think without further ado, we dive straight into it.
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Let's do it. Absolutely, friend. Our guest today is not only probably a hero
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of everyone here, but our guest today is a magician that's managed to take some
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of the most technical demanding sleight of hand and turn it into the most beautiful,
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genuine theater. He is a FISM winner.
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He's got more awards than we can imagine. The guy's like basically a full-time Jedi.
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But today we're talking about this amazing partnership he has with this legendary
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filmmaker called Frank Marshall.
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And they're working on their fourth collaboration called The Hope Theory,
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which has made its off-Broadway premiere in New York after a sold-out and extended
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world premiere in Los Angeles.
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You know him. We love him. Friends, please join us in welcoming,
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for this very surreal moment, Helder Gramirez.
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How the Grimirors, welcome to the Magic Eyes podcast. Please tell everyone,
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who are you and what do you do? Let's go.
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That was like so funny to see all of the things on screen. So my name is Hala Ima.
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I'm a magician. I'm a storyteller. I love to create experiences that take magic
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as a language and they transform them into something that audiences can absorb and consume.
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And experience in different ways, you know, online,
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in the physical space, in a more immersive way. And so that's what I do.
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You know, I can definitely say you've been a massive influence on all of us,
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either listening or in this room right now that are chatting about it.
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Just a quick prefix before we jump into our questions about the hope theory.
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So 14 years ago, I performed my very first Melbourne Magic Festival and was
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lucky enough to be blessed with just myself and Helda in our own green room in the back.
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And we had a very at length conversation to which Helda gave me a ton of advice.
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And I've mentioned this several times on the podcast. And so it's really nice
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some 14 years later to be able to reconnect with him and say,
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thank you for helping shape me personally and the magic that I create.
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And so, yeah, I was holding up a photograph for those watching on the YouTube.
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This is Nick 14 years ago, along with Hilda, after a very deep conversation
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that generally shaped the way I perform magic today.
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So truly with everything that you've released to the magic community,
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let's just begin with a very, just a moment of gratitude and say,
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thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So thank you so much. My first question.
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Let's talk about it. Let's talk about the Hope Theory. What is the actual, tell us about it.
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So for the last, I would say, 10 years, a lot of my creative work and a lot
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of the shows I develop or projects I develop usually start with an idea of something I want to speak about.
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Sometimes it's more like a topic, some more like a team.
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Sometimes it's a story, right? So this particular show, The Hope Theory.
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It's literally the story
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of when I moved to the United States and the first few years of living in the
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United States, which are usually the hardest years for anyone that is having
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an immigrant experience, right?
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Of course, my particular story is told in the first person. But there is also
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another person that is going through the immigration process with me as well,
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which is my girlfriend at the time.
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So it's basically these kind of two journeys happening simultaneously and the
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issues that each one of us was facing and the different aspects of that.
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And so the Hope Theory started with me wanting to talk about that,
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especially because I felt we were getting to a place in the U.S.
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Where immigration was starting to be an issue and was starting to be a conversation.
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And the truth is, the more years I lived in the U.S., I realized that most Americans
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have no idea of what it takes for someone to move to their own country.
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And so it was kind of an open letter to then start bigger conversations with other people.
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And it was so interesting because when we did it in in los angeles a lot of
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people came out of and go we had no idea that
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you had to do these things you know like we don't have to do these things as
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americans and you guys have to do it you know like and so it's it was very interesting and so.
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It started with that. And of course, because magic is my language and it's my
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creative language, eventually a lot of the routines that were developed were
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developed thinking of the story I already had on the table,
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which for me is the way I've been conceiving magic for the last years is I first
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have what I want to say as an artist, and then I craft the routines to fit the
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narrative I already have on the table.
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See, what's interesting is that 29, when you, I mean, that's a very young age
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for anyone to do such a massive move in truth.
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I mean, Doug's just gone from state to state and that has been an epic adventure
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in itself. But you at 29 picked up your life, moved to America.
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And what I'm curious about is at what point...
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Did you realize that period of your life wasn't just a story,
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but material for a show? Oh, years later.
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Like at that time, I was just experiencing it.
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I just have a very good memory. So things that happened to me like 30 years
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ago, I still remember. Sometimes I remember exactly the sentence that someone
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said to me in a specific situation.
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Sometimes I remember the feeling of of being like uncomfortable in a in a different
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scenario or ever and so I usually,
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I usually don't think when I'm living my life I don't think oh this can go to
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a show I don't I don't comedians usually do that I don't do that but it's true that,
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once time goes by and you start thinking about certain episodes a lot of time
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you start to understand Maybe there is material here to write something interesting.
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And so to be completely honest with you, I think.
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Only like probably 12 years after I moved to the United States was when I started
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to understand maybe there is something to be made here.
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And it took a while to craft the narrative to make a show. But yeah,
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it was a long time until I realized that.
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Well, I'm curious when you're crafting this, like at what point do you,
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like, what are you willing to put on stage and what are you willing to never share?
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You're talking about the personal site?
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Well, yeah, I mean, this is a very personal story. So like what,
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what parts, excuse me, what parts of yourself are you willing to put on stage
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and what parts do belong to you?
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Do you put them on them because they're too private or do you not share them
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because you can't articulate them in the magic sense? Like what's the risk,
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you know, what sort of restrictions are you dealing with?
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I don't think I have. Yeah. Yeah, I understand the question.
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I don't think I have a restriction per se on not putting something.
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Of course, if the story involves someone else and I'm putting that person in
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a delicate position, I probably will not want to do it. Not because of myself,
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but because I would need permission from that person.
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But even, for example, in this show, there are a couple of characters that show
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up in the conversation and I'm not putting the real names because I'm not going
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to, I'm not, I go like, oh, that's the part.
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For me, it's more the idea of the story than necessarily if the name is the
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accurate name or not, right?
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And so for me, at that point, the real material, it's material to create a fiction for the show.
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And at that point, I don't think I have limits necessarily besides the fact
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that they need to be part of a whole.
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So for example, I can tell you that in this particular process i had so many
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more stories about this displacement feeling of being an immigrant that it got to a point it's like,
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is this story moving the action forward or does this story have a payoff later,
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and if it doesn't then i i'm taking it out right and and one of them was actually
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a very funny story which was,
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I realized that I could get people to waive the fee when I was going to the
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bank asking for catcher's checks.
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Normally, the bank sometimes asks for a fee for that.
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And I realized that by having an accent and by just saying, oh,
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this is my first time, I didn't know that, that the guy would just say,
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okay, I'll waive it this time. I'll waive it this time.
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And every time it was like, oh, I didn't know this. And they go,
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okay, I'll waive it this time.
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So for years, every time the cashier's check, I'll just play that card.
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And because I have an accent, people just very kind and did that,
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you know, like, so there was that story that was really funny.
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And I wanted to put it on the show. But then later on, usually when I introduce
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a topic at some point, there is a callback to it. And, you know,
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like there is a payoff to it.
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And that didn't necessarily have a great payoff. And so like that was something
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that we took off when we first were developing the show.
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So, but I feel that I don't have necessarily a limit in terms of like,
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what is real. And I feel it's, it's literally the show that is going to ask
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what, what deserves to be there or not.
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And some of the things I'm talking about are uncomfortable, you know,
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like certain things that I'm talking, especially about, about my,
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my, my girlfriend at the time, they are not
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easy to hear, but I think that the audience also feels, oh, we're,
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we're really, this is real.
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Like he's not telling us like, he's not sugarcoating it. Right.
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And I think that is the relationship of honesty that is established with the
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audience is very important at the end,
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as a show, especially like when you have these one man shows, I think,
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when you create an honesty relationship with the audience, that is so important
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because people leave the theater emotionally charged by what you said and what
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you've done in a different way, in my opinion.
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I have a question how do i ask this you've done a few shows now you've done
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a few one-man shows you know invisible tango the future hope theory,
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and then obviously the present as well which is very particular one but like
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how do you decide when you've,
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told that story enough and you want to write a new story like a comedian for
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example will fit he'll stop putting out his hour once he's like filmed it and put it out on,
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Netflix and then that promotes like the next one but like you're actually not
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doing that you're only letting it be a live experience and then it dissipates
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and then you create a new one so like when do you decide to write a new story and,
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is like what happens to those other shows like where does the invisible tango
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live now or like would you consider,
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putting it out as a special in the future like what are your thoughts on where
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it goes and when you start a new one?
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So, it's interesting because I'm usually working on multiple shows at the same time.
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So right now, as I'm doing the Hope Theory, I'm probably working,
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actively, I'm working on two different projects. But like in the back of my
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mind, I had a third one, a third idea I'm developing, right?
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So I'm always working on new stuff, no matter where I am on that.
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I think there is a commercial side to all of this.
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I'm going to be honest. I've never felt I was done with any of the shows.
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I think certain shows just have their natural course of life.
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But for example, Invisible Tango is one of those. And I'm glad you mentioned it.
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Because it was probably my first very satisfactory experience as a writer.
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Like, that was the first time I felt I really wrote a show, right?
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That was, like, the first time I felt that.
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Not that I have not written things before, but I don't know.
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There is something, when it's almost like you find your own voice,
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in a way, I think I found my voice in a different show.
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But as a writer, I think I developed the writing qualities during that process,
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which is slightly different, right?
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You can it's almost like you know what you want to do but you don't have the
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tools to do it exactly as you want and that was a show i did in portugal called clandestine act.
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And then when i started to write invisible tango i actually started to like read a lot about
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writing right and i was going back to my my my dramaturge lessons in in college
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and you know like and going all over all of that to really gather all the tools I need.
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And so that was the first time I felt I was a writer in a way.
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And so Invisible Tank is a very funny experience because we did it at the Geffen, and this was 2019.
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And we were going to do it in New York in 2020.
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And then the pandemic hit.
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And so that show never got the full life I think it deserved.
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So if you ask me what you want to do with Invisible Tango, I'd be like,
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I wish one day I can put it back up because I think it's an incomplete cycle that I have to fulfill.
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If you tell me like, okay, but you can't do that, would you record it at some point to do a special?
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Sure, I'll consider that. Although I'm a true believer that magic should be experienced live.
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And so like for something to be on video permanently i think it's it's a different
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sort of of mindset for me which doesn't doesn't mean i'm not considering it
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or i wouldn't consider doing the old theory in
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in video right i would do that but i would feel that,
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a little bit like a comedian when that is done i think it's like okay then it
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means that we are we're just like that show is never going to happen again right,
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i don't know it's kind of a it's kind of a timely subject matter that it would
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make great video for modern society to absorb you know what a deep tale to tell
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through your art form and,
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yeah it's an important one i commend you for taking such deep subject matter into the magic arena.
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Thank you yeah maybe consider putting this one on video sooner than later but either way keep going,
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yeah you know what i'm also curious about helder is that like your magic alone
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just stand alone is so remarkable and so strong that i'm curious what a show,
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with just the magic minus the storytelling would like that experience,
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it wouldn't be a holder grumiere's experience would it,
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i mean just if it was just the magic i mean the magic would stand up alone yeah
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at this point i would not see myself doing that and it's just because i don't,
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there's nothing wrong with magic in the purest sense i love i love to see it
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i love to create it i love like when i'm with my friends sometimes i'll do stuff
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that is just pure magic and i'm not i'm not worried about anything else, right?
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But there is definitely something about,
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the way you want to express yourself that for me gains me,
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as like gets me emotionally invested in a way that just putting out like magic
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doesn't in a way you know like and so it's it's interesting for you to say that
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but yeah right now that's not i would not consider a show of mine,
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in the present moment.
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It's rare that a magician makes it to the high art that you're doing now i'm
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curious how long that's been part of your life i would assume at one point you
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were just a card man yeah am i correct.
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Yeah yeah yeah yeah so how does that transition kind of like because that's
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a big a big leap for any magician much less a card man i i think it's it's when,
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for me at least i would say that for me was like 10 years ago more or less like maybe a little bit,
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maybe maybe longer in the sense that certain things started to bother me personally
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not about magic not about magicians but about like how satisfied i was,
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right and i think all of this has to do with,
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how satisfied you are with your own work right and it got to a point where i've
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done too many shows i've done too many lectures i've done too many things that
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kind of fitted the pattern in a way,
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and then i said like and now what i'm just gonna keep repeating this over and over and eventually,
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i'll tell you that it was as i said i think in 2000 and and and 16 i might be wrong on on,
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on 16 17 but it was around that time that for the first time i decided to talk
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about do a story like write a story.
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And that was the Shoah mission before in Portugal called Clandestine Act.
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And it was a real story that happened to me.
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And the moment I did that show, it felt so relieving in a way,
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right? Because I was like, I was doing magic the way I love to do it.
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I created magic the way I like to create it, but I created it for a story.
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And for some reason that just made me go like, wow, I felt so me on this, you know, like,
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I don't know how much you know or how people know about this,
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but I studied theater for four years.
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My college degree is theater, right?
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For a long time, I always wanted to bring things together that I was passionate about, right?
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And so all of a sudden, we get to this moment in 2016 where I was like,
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oh my God, I really felt that.
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And I've done other things before, Like, for example, in 2015.
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I did one immersive experience called Borrowed Time, which played with narrative
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in a very different way. Not in a storytelling way, but in a more...
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And I love doing that as well, right? And all of a sudden, I was starting to
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explore different ways of doing magic.
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But when I wrote a show where there is literally a story from the beginning
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to the end and the magic naturally interweaves with the story,
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that's when I felt, okay.
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This really feels something that I can use as a model, not as a formula.
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I hate the idea of like, because every show is so different.
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The stories are so different. The routines are so different.
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But there is definitely something interesting about being able to tell one story
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from the beginning to the end and carry the audience with that emotional journey.
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You know, instead of, let me give you my opinion about this or my opinion about
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that or my opinion about this.
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And at the end, things can actually be connected. And that's fine.
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But here was different. It was like, you have to go with me from A to B, from B to C, from C to D.
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You know, like you have to do all of that so that at the end,
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you could understand the idea I was trying to, the bigger picture I was trying to give you.
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And so, as I said, that was a clandestine act. And then...
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When I found that, I was like, okay, I know where this is going.
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And then Invisible Tango ended up being the first time I was like,
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I think now I have the tools and the idea to actually write something that I am like.
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Not, you never are 100% proud of anything because, you know,
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like there is always moments where you go like, if I would write it now,
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change one thing or another, that never changes.
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But something that I was like, yeah, I can, I can feel, I can feel this as a
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whole thing. And I love that.
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You know, I feel like we could do with a little crash course in magic storytelling,
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because whenever I've worked with other magicians, I think the thing they confuse
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the most is this, they confuse the difference between plot and story,
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when it comes to a magic trick.
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If you could speak to this and give us a little crash course on what it actually
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takes to build a decent storytelling piece of magic or indeed a show like i
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think that would be really valuable,
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i honestly like i i i say this so so i have i have an online community that
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sometimes i do seminars and and and and and kind of workshops and and and without
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some of my projects that is called secret language and now it goes to secret
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language.com you'll find all the information there But,
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one of the things I say to everyone that follows my work, and we did a seminar
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on script and storytelling.
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What I say is, I think for you to start doing it, the first,
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the basic idea that you should do is grab a plot you really like,
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okay? Grab a plot you really like.
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Understand what metaphors you can explore with that plot, right?
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So, for example, I'm going to give an example, like a two-card transposition.
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You know like physically it's just two cards changing places but,
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the the story that you can tell about it it can be about like what if you if
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you could exchange your life with the life of someone else and that is just
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just a much bigger idea now
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that you can play with a plot like that right and i'm doing i'm doing a very
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simple and direct example you can be way more philosophical about things,
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right? But, but, you know.
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That would be my first step, right? It's pick up a plot you like,
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because that's independent of anything.
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If you don't do things you like, you're going to spend way less time doing them, right?
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So just pick things you like, because you're going to be so much more emotionally
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invested in doing it, so that you should just do that, right?
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But grab a plot you like, and really work on it, and try different versions,
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of a script, and learn how to write scripts. And know, I always say this,
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more than knowing how to write, know how to edit scripts.
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Like writing scripts, it's actually the easiest part.
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It's hard because you have to put it all on the page, but knowing how to edit
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it so that you just say what is needed. No more, no less.
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There's no downtime, you know?
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Like everything you're saying to the audience is new information.
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It's valuable information. You're not repeating yourself.
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That is very, very important, right? And so once you've done that with one,
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you can keep doing that with multiple. And I think the first step is to actually just do that.
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And I would say the goal eventually, and that's what I do now with my work,
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is to do the opposite, which is grab something you want to say.
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Do not care about what plot or what routine you're going to do,
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and write that story write that idea write that point of view i think a lot
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of magic doesn't have a point of view and i think that's my biggest thing about
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magic is that magic like any other art form should have a point of view
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and so a lot of times if you all of the sudden see.
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The different magicians doing the same trick you understand that a lot of times
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the point of view doesn't exist on any so all of them could be kind of switch
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between them and nothing would be lost right but then you see certain
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certain people that you go like okay there is definitely a point of view that
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this character is is giving me right and then you can't replace that person
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and when you can't replace that person that's i think it's a good thing right,
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but i'll say then start to invert kind of the cycle write the story,
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do not think about the magic okay and then,
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it's like how can i fit a magic routine on this and it's it's then now we are
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opening a can of worms because of course there are techniques of course there are,
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patterns you can understand once you start to do it a lot but it's not it's
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not the usual magic thinking okay once in a while nevertheless you write something,
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and it totally fits a plot that exists or even an ending you have for a certain
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plot that can happen too it happens to me once in a while go like oh that's
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yeah i can totally see now and then of course i'm rewriting to match the plot and the plot is
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being the technique itself is being rearranged to match.
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The idea I'm trying to convey. But most of the times, like for example,
27:53
in this show, I can tell you, when I started the show, I had zero routines of what happened on stage.
28:02
I had no idea what was going to happen on stage. I wrote the full show, just a story.
28:07
Then I realized that there was one moment where there was one particular routine
28:13
that I have done in the past that I could probably use it and reuse some of
28:19
the ideas and incorporate it.
28:21
All the rest of the material was created for the show.
28:25
And one of them, it's the most bizarre thing I've ever created because it comes out of a writer's block.
28:34
So it's like I couldn't, I knew where that moment ended.
28:40
And then every single line I was trying to write after was not going anywhere,
28:45
going anywhere, going anywhere.
28:48
And it was my director frank marshall that turned to me
28:51
and he said i i'll just say i don't want to spoil for people who are going to
28:55
see the show but there's a line in the show that i say life is not the dmv
29:00
and it's a joke it's it's supposed to be a joke and it hits very very it's a
29:03
very funny joke in the moment of the show life is not the dmv,
29:07
and for those who are out of the us dmv it's like the department of motor vehicles
29:12
that's where you normally get your license you have to wait in line for things.
29:16
It's very bureaucratic, you know, like so.
29:18
It's literally the worst place in America. Yes. And it's really funny.
29:22
It's really funny in the moment because I'm talking about having to wait for
29:26
your own turn for things to happen.
29:28
And then I say life is not the DMV, right? Anyway, but that line was so funny
29:34
in the way I wrote it in the script.
29:36
And me, the dramaturg, and Frank, we all loved it. We all wanted to keep it.
29:42
But after that, everything that I wrote was pretty shitty. I knew that. Everyone knew that.
29:48
And then Frank was the one that said.
29:52
Why don't we use that to start a magic moment? And I go like,
29:57
what do you mean? You go like, when people enter the room, everyone gets a number.
30:03
Like they go to the line on the DMV.
30:06
And now in this moment, you use those numbers to do something.
30:10
And my head just exploded like, whoa, that's so good.
30:16
And I took that and I created a completely new routine that I don't even know what plot it is.
30:23
It's so bizarre in the way, but completely follows the story.
30:28
And that could never have happened if I was trying to use routines I already have.
30:34
That routine would never exist in the show if I was trying to use routines I already have.
30:39
I already had so i love that unknown quality of of the creative process because
30:46
it takes me to places and solutions and
30:49
and ideas that otherwise would never exist and i'm very excited about you know
30:54
like doing things like that so yeah.
30:58
Can you talk a little bit about working with a director you know it's something
31:02
a lot of magicians just ignore and has this been part of your life always you
31:06
know when developing a show or did you swim in the pond by yourself for a while no,
31:12
it depends on the process even even now i do some things that i don't use the
31:17
director for and then others where i think i i need the director for i love
31:21
working with with the with the with directors because
31:25
especially people like frank which are people who,
31:29
know enough about magic to understand that,
31:33
I need to take the lead on that and they are not going to even touch on anything
31:37
that I'm trying to do or saying.
31:39
They are also very respectful of magic so that if a magic routine has some staging
31:46
needs, they will accommodate their ideas to match that.
31:51
So they are not trying to impose their ideas on top of what the needs of the routine are.
31:59
And then people that are very like, try this, try this, try this.
32:03
And we try it. And we basically get to a point where everyone agrees what is best for the show.
32:08
Like I've never been in a situation with Frank where we disagree on something.
32:16
We've tried different things.
32:18
And we've argued what we are looking for with those decisions in the show.
32:24
And eventually, we always find a solution that everyone is happy.
32:28
And when we do that, we know it's the right solution because it's matching the
32:32
idea he has or the idea I have, right?
32:36
And most of the times, it's not a compromise in the sense that,
32:39
okay, I'll give you, it's not that. It's like, it's literally finding a solution,
32:43
that allows both visions to coexist.
32:46
And so when I work with people like Frank, that we have that sort of language already at this point,
32:53
and that's why I like to work so much with sometimes the same people,
32:56
it's just because you develop a language, a work language, that things are just faster, you know.
33:02
And you know the result is going to be at the level you want it to be.
33:08
But I think it's very important, especially on the early stages, to have people that,
33:14
give you opinions from the outside you know like when i started i wouldn't say
33:18
it was a director but i definitely had people that looked at things i was doing
33:23
and they were giving me opinions even just before i started all of this more storytelling,
33:29
phase just with magic you know like i have a lot of friends that you know especially
33:34
like in from spain you know like i'm from portugal but i i always say that my
33:39
magic family mostly of it is from from spain
33:42
and having people commenting on ideas that you share with them and be like, oh, that's a great idea.
33:48
What if you do this what if you do that i love that uh thing because you know
33:53
we i think we always have to learn,
33:55
from everyone else right and it doesn't really for me like the source of information,
34:02
doesn't matter as long as it's honest and there is a point of view of what you
34:07
like if if you're just telling me change that the way you handle the double
34:11
lift because i prefer the other one i go like i don't care about that opinion
34:15
but if you're telling me like you know like
34:18
if you turn the double like this,
34:20
you are more like it's a more a shortcut in terms of
34:25
choreography to get where you
34:27
want to go then i'm interested because then you are suggesting a change
34:31
to make everything a little bit more economical and then then i'm interested
34:35
about that if it's just like oh i prefer this handling i go like we
34:40
all have our preferences right i don't i don't necessarily think that the routine
34:44
is going to change that much
34:46
if you change a double lift but if you change a double lift,
34:51
because it's more economical you got you get from one
34:55
place to the other one in a more streamlined way then i'm totally up for changing
35:00
you right and so i think when you i try at least to do that when when i give
35:05
comments to other other magicians,
35:08
it's like.
35:11
Why I'm giving the opinion, right?
35:13
It's not like, I just don't think it's bad.
35:16
I think it can be better because of this, right? And so for me...
35:20
What about, have you tried rubber cement with your double lifts?
35:23
And if so, what is your opinion on that subject?
35:27
My opinion is that if you practice enough you don't need it that's all that's
35:32
that's what i'm i uh my opinion is and.
35:36
If anyone can track down the secret language book like there's literally i won't
35:41
show like the actual pages of it but like there's literally in print helder,
35:46
explaining some some doing more with less movement in um that move exactly and so,
35:53
yeah yeah so it's a beautiful book Well, with regards to Frank Marshall.
35:58
So Frank Marshall is an amazing creative entity that was responsible for Indiana
36:03
Jones, Back to the Future and Jurassic World. And what I'm really curious about
36:07
is how you even ended up like in a creative meeting with Frank is my first question.
36:13
And secondly, I'm curious why you've teamed up with a cinematic director as
36:22
opposed to a theater director.
36:25
Up so it's so interesting today i had to i had i had the meeting and i was telling
36:29
this story again so it's almost feels i was practicing to now tell the story to you guys,
36:34
but i'll tell you exactly how i end up meeting frank and it's actually a very funny story so,
36:41
at the time this is back in 2009 in 18 i think 2018.
36:48
And the geffen reached out to me and said we want you to come back what are
36:52
you working on what what Are you watching on any show, any idea?
36:57
And I said, okay, let me gather thoughts. Let me gather like what I want to
37:01
propose and I'll get back to you.
37:04
I started, I had the idea for Invisible Tango at the time. I knew what story I wanted to tell.
37:09
I was writing it. I had like probably half a written script at that point.
37:14
And I said like, okay, I think this could be really an interesting experience to give the audience.
37:20
And just to a little bit of a sidetrack, the idea of Invisible Tango was all
37:27
about how we deal with the unknown, with things we don't know, right?
37:32
Which as a magician you do that to the audience all the time,
37:37
but the audience rarely sees how a magician deals with the unknown so the story
37:42
about the invisible tango is a lot about what you don't know what you discover
37:47
how you discover these things and how people
37:50
have an influence in your life sometimes not by telling you a lot but by keeping
37:55
things away from you right and so the story was, was all about that.
38:00
So I w I had half a written script. Uh, there was a friend of mine.
38:04
I don't know if, if you've met him, Doug, or just because I said that just because
38:08
he's from the U S called Bill Taylor.
38:11
I don't know if you ever met Bill Taylor, but you met Taylor.
38:15
So bill taylor ring a bell bill taylor was a friend of mine from los angeles
38:21
i think when he started very early he,
38:24
was a professional magician for a while but then he entered to the cinema world
38:28
and he was like an entity on the special effects world of of cinema like space
38:34
jam he was part of that you know like.
38:37
I think who framed roger rabbit like he's like you go through his credits and
38:41
you realize like this guy was like,
38:44
very big on the special effects department of movies right,
38:48
and i met bill once the first time i went to los angeles he came to a lecture
38:53
of mine we became friends when i moved to la
38:56
i used to go and have lunch with bill like every two months or something just
39:00
catching up you know like talking about magic he was a big a big fan of my work he was actually,
39:07
he already passed away unfortunately but he was writing a book about things
39:11
he had come up with and he actually had asked me to be the hands on the photographs
39:16
you know like he wanted me to be the,
39:18
project never never got to be made unfortunately but eventually in one of these
39:24
conversations i i mentioned oh the geffern just reached out
39:27
they want me to go back to to do something i'm thinking about doing this show
39:32
and now i'm trying to find someone that helps me craft it from the storytelling point of view
39:37
not from the magic of new but what i kind of wanted to do with the match i didn't
39:41
have the routines at the time but i knew
39:44
i wanted it to be a close-up show in a way i wanted like people to be around the table and and see it,
39:49
but but i need someone to help me craft the storytelling and and bill said i
39:54
have the perfect person to you frank marshall and.
39:59
Okay the only frank marshall i've heard about is the frank marshall you know
40:05
like that is responsible for all of these hits,
40:09
and i'm like are we talking about the same frank marshall yeah yeah he's a big
40:13
magic fan nice probably knows about you already and uh and these uh is,
40:20
uh i i actually was recently with him and he said like a month ago i was i was with him,
40:25
and and he's like he's now going into live experiences in live theater so we
40:32
had just like frank had just started to be a producer in broadway
40:37
like a year before that or something like that so he was back interesting but
40:40
it's live thing right so sometimes this is of timing you know like magically appear so,
40:47
Long story short, Bill said, I'm going to reach out to Frank.
40:50
I don't hear anything for like three weeks.
40:52
And I'm like, okay, maybe Frank just passed or whatever.
40:57
And Bill, three weeks after, sends me an email saying like, I talked with Frank.
41:02
He's interested in the project.
41:03
Let's schedule a meeting with him. So we scheduled a meeting with him,
41:07
which I think was like one week or a week and a half after that.
41:11
I remember it was not long after that.
41:13
But we plan to meet together and Bill and I will drive together to his office.
41:20
I go to Bill's house. We drive together in the way to the meeting.
41:24
Bill turns to me and he says, by the way, Frank only has half an hour.
41:29
He has another meeting after us. So just make sure that you.
41:35
Go to the point. His staff is like, don't let Magic Boy ramble on too long. Yeah, and I'm...
41:42
I'm now thinking, this is my thinking. It's like, oh, got it.
41:48
So Frank probably is friends with Bill.
41:51
He's doing this as a favor to Bill. Yeah, right. He probably doesn't want to
41:55
take the project. You know, like this legendary Hollywood producer,
42:00
why would you want to direct a show? It's a lot to wrap your head around.
42:02
Yeah. So I would say like- Talking to the Indiana Jones guy.
42:05
It's a lot. Yeah, I was like, fine, okay, I'll go. I'll meet with him.
42:09
It's going to be a cool story to tell, and that's it.
42:11
And I'll take it all like fine. It's like, no worries.
42:15
So I get to the office. We arrived.
42:18
We go to the meeting room. Now, I enter the meeting room and it's decorated
42:24
with a bunch of stuff from the movies.
42:27
Awards, photographs, like literally history around it. And I'm like looking
42:32
like this around the room.
42:35
And when I look to my right, I see the back to the future, future shoes.
42:42
Like there. And I'm a huge back to the future fan. So I'm like,
42:47
now I'm like, I'm not prepared for this meeting. That's what I thought at the time.
42:52
I'm definitely not prepared for this meeting. I sit at the table.
42:56
Frank eventually arrives.
42:58
I immediately understand he's very down to earth. That is like super nice guy.
43:03
He catches up with Bill for a minute or so, and then kind of Bill directs the
43:08
conversation. Go ahead, Elder.
43:11
Pitch it, right? Pitch the idea to Frank. And my head is still wrapping around
43:16
like all the things I'm seeing around.
43:17
So the first thing I turn to Frank and I say like is, Frank,
43:21
I'm sorry. Before we start, I really have to ask, are those the real back to
43:27
the future, future shoot?
43:29
And Frank goes into this conversation about...
43:34
How he has those, how Nike got involved in the project.
43:38
Super nice, telling like super many details that are kind of unbelievable.
43:44
And it takes like a good 10 minutes, 15 if not, of that. And in my head,
43:51
as I'm listening to that, I'm going like, wow, this is fantastic.
43:54
But now I only have 15 minutes, right?
43:58
And, but in my head, in a way, it's strange to say this now,
44:01
knowing that we've done so many things together. But in my head at the time,
44:05
I think I was already like, this is not going anywhere. I'm just having this
44:09
meeting, but this is not going anywhere.
44:11
So when eventually Frank ends and I start to tell about the project,
44:16
he's listening to it very clearly, like he was really paying attention.
44:20
Gets to the end of probably me for 10 minutes talking about the different things
44:26
I kind of want to accomplish with the show.
44:28
How I would see his involvement.
44:31
He asked me a few questions like timeline you know like a bunch of of more practical
44:37
things and by the end of those three questions he turns to me and he goes like okay let's do it,
44:45
and i am not prepared to get the yes in the room right so from being like this
44:50
is not gonna happen to yes this is gonna happen it was like 10 minutes right
44:56
and i'm like i i was i was like okay so and.
45:01
If you are okay, I'll just tell the Geffen you are on board.
45:04
Is that okay? And he goes like, sure, absolutely.
45:07
And he gives me his contacts so that I can put him in touch and all of that.
45:12
And we basically, that was it. That's how I got involved. It's amazing.
45:17
And then I think Invisible Tango was a good laboratory for us to understand how each other worked.
45:25
We quickly understood we have the same sensitivity about most things.
45:31
So it's never a discussion. It's more a conversation about, have you ever think
45:35
about this? Oh, that's a good point. And it's always like that.
45:39
And it was like we basically grew.
45:45
Our relationship during that project. And then we just understood that, oh, my God,
45:51
this is such a great synergy of one experience and very different backgrounds,
45:59
but that we can work so well together.
46:02
And I have to mention, just to be completely honest, that there is a third wheel
46:06
on all of this, which is the dramaturge, that is Amy Lennison from the Geffen.
46:11
And the three of us, we really have a lot of fun developing the shows from...
46:17
And what is the role of... It's the dramaturge? Is that what it is?
46:20
What does this person do for you? So Amy's role is basically...
46:28
Asking me questions that sometimes I don't have answers to.
46:33
And that's a great thing because when she asks questions that I have an answer, we move the way I want.
46:40
But when she asks me questions I don't have an answer to, then we open a conversation
46:45
about how things can move forward, right?
46:48
And I love that. And then, of course, because she's a wordsmith,
46:52
she can help me sometimes say things in a more specific way because,
46:57
you know, like English is not my first language.
46:59
And so sometimes, you know, I understand my limitations on writing.
47:05
And so sometimes I write things one way and she says, like, how about if you said it like this?
47:12
And then I need to understand what that expression exactly means.
47:17
And then she explains to me, and if it fits what I want to say,
47:21
we keep it. If not, we'll change it and we find different ways.
47:26
Because there is something, and now that we're talking on the wording,
47:31
there is something very different about writing for the page or writing for the stage.
47:35
And when you're writing for the stage for someone who's the first language is
47:42
not English, that has like a double layer almost.
47:45
Because there are words that coming out of my mouth will not sound natural.
47:51
And so I need to find the words that naturally fit me. Not that I avoid complicated words.
48:00
I just naturally don't say certain things in a way.
48:03
And it would become like almost like it would take away from the moment the
48:07
audience when I'm saying certain things.
48:10
So and I think we're very good at adjusting that.
48:13
And so just for you to know, our creative process is basically I write the script
48:19
or I write a scene depending on how and where we are in the process. But we go to a meeting.
48:27
Usually on Zoom, because we are like, oh, sometimes I'm in Portugal,
48:31
sometimes Frank is in London. So we go on Zoom. I read it.
48:37
I send them the scene usually in advance so that they can read it on their own.
48:41
But then I read it, and then we go over, literally, sentence by sentence.
48:48
And when I'm saying this, I'm not joking. when I say we've spent two hours in
48:54
one sentence at some time,
48:57
because we are discussing the implication of saying this one way or another
49:02
and the weight and the meaning and the joke, whatever that is.
49:07
But we've spent two hours sometimes in one single sentence being rewritten three,
49:13
four, five times, thinking about it.
49:15
And the implications of actually saying certain things I say in my shows so,
49:21
so yeah so it's it's really a lot of work and.
49:25
Like before for example the oak theory started rehearsals we worked on the script for over a year,
49:33
so from the first draft of the script until the draft because even on rehearsal room we start we keep,
49:41
rewriting certain things not the structure the structure at that point is usually
49:45
already there but we might cut little things and and sentences and so at that point,
49:53
it took us like a year and i would say like not a year and a half but a year and a few months,
49:58
to get from the first draft to a working draft for the rehearsal room what a
50:03
dream and we meet like i would say like once every week and when we start like
50:09
getting closer to the show it's like three four times per week yeah,
50:13
Wow. You know, I was going to ask, what do you think your biggest lesson is?
50:16
But I think that's the answer, like scripting and just wording.
50:20
It sounds like Bible study to me. That's crazy. I'm curious,
50:23
like you got this thing up and running.
50:25
Do you make many changes now? Like will Frank review what's happening this week
50:31
or midway through the run or, you know?
50:34
Well, I think it's always good when you do a longer run to at some point go
50:40
back and read the script the way it's written. because usually you kind of slightly change things.
50:48
I think I'm actually pretty good at holding the script, but I can tell you something
50:53
very interesting, which is from the run in Los Angeles to this run in New York,
50:59
we did change certain things in the script.
51:02
And we were talking about that. And it's like, why are things that we didn't
51:08
see as little things are now being rethought.
51:13
And I told Amy, I said, like, two years have gone by and we are different people.
51:19
We are different. Of course, we are going to be seeing things differently, right?
51:23
Now, is it a major rewrite? No, we still are very happy with the structure, the moments.
51:29
But there were a couple of things that in these two years politically changed
51:35
in this country. And when you talk about immigration, It's a very subject...
51:41
What are you talking about?
51:44
I don't know where you've been. I don't know where you've been, God. But.
51:51
The way I was approaching the beginning of a section actually got rewritten
51:56
because of what now is happening.
51:59
So that's not because I'm saying things that are less poignant or not.
52:06
I actually think it's more poignant now.
52:08
Than it was before. It's just more current.
52:12
And this is something that I was very, very, it's an interesting conversation
52:16
I had with them. It's like.
52:19
If you do a theater play, it doesn't matter if you are saying we are here in
52:24
London and you are not in London, right? Because people assume that fictional world.
52:30
But in a magic show, that doesn't work.
52:32
Like in a magic show, you are with the audience and the audience knows you are there.
52:37
So you can't go and say things that are not the reality of the moment.
52:43
You can talk about stories in the past and people can relate to that.
52:47
But when you're talking about things in the present tense, they need to be current,
52:51
right? And so that was a big reason why we had to rewrite just an intro.
52:57
It was like literally three lines, but we had to rewrite for this run, yeah.
53:02
It's even how like you just explained to us in Australia what the DMV is,
53:07
like the topicalness of where you are, LA, yeah, times that we're in.
53:14
That makes perfect sense. And because you've done so many shows now,
53:18
there is a segment in our podcast called Gig Stories, which I just can't wait to hear like,
53:24
what thing comes to mind for you, where something amazing or interesting that's
53:28
happened at a show. So we're gonna run into that right now.
53:36
So Gig Stories is a section of the show where we share little magical moments,
53:39
either from our day-to-day or indeed whilst we're performing.
53:42
And Helder, you have a story. We're dying to hear it. I do have a story.
53:47
So this is a really fun story because it's a very different gig and it led to
53:53
a very different magic moment, right?
53:57
So i was asked to be at this fundraiser event,
54:05
playing poker okay and and and the the the thing i was doing is not i was not
54:12
doing anything magic related i was literally just at the table playing poker,
54:17
and the idea is that the guests would sit down and play poker but there would
54:22
always be someone there playing poker with them and there was no money involved it was just for fun,
54:29
because the full experience was the poker game was being played with blank cards.
54:35
And everyone had to imagine which cards they had,
54:40
right and it was it was this very very crazy idea right and i'd been asked just
54:46
to be there, like being at this table, playing and,
54:52
doing exactly what every guest is doing and, and playing with blank cards and
54:57
saying like, oh yeah, I have a pair of threes.
54:59
I didn't win. I won and everything, right? It's just like this very bizarre moment, right?
55:03
Now, while I'm doing, I'm literally doing this for like three hours, right?
55:08
That's an easy gig. Wow. What an odd.
55:11
It was a very easy gig. And the funny thing is that, you know,
55:14
like there were like really like A-list celebrities sitting at the table to do all of that.
55:19
It's weird. Yeah. And I can't talk that much because, you know,
55:22
like there are NDAs and stuff like that. But I'm doing that.
55:26
And because I'm three hours sitting at that table, I'm talking a lot with the dealer. Okay.
55:33
And it's this woman that usually deals cards in private poker games, right?
55:39
She's never done with a blank deck. And she has to make up the cards as she
55:45
deals them face up, right?
55:46
So now she's dealing the cards face up, right?
55:49
And they gave her a blank deck of bicycle red bikes, which is the same cards
55:57
I had in my pocket, okay? And I never revealed that, okay?
56:01
Okay, so now, now I'm like three hours thinking, what am I going to do at the end of the gig, right?
56:11
So things wrap up. She's packing her stuff up.
56:17
And I, and she, and by the way, in this conversation, I said like,
56:21
so what you do? And I'm like, I'm a magician. So she knew that. Okay.
56:24
So at the end of it, she turns to me and I go and goes like,
56:27
can you show me something?
56:29
And I go like, sure. And I go, I don't, I don't, I don't have cards,
56:34
but can I grab the blank cards?
56:37
And she's like, can you do something with them? And I go like, sure, I can.
56:40
And I say, shuffle the cards. Do you have a favorite card? And she says, seven of diamonds.
56:49
And I go like, okay, so give me the deck and let's play this imaginary game.
56:54
But now just between the two of us, I want you to touch one of these cards.
56:59
And I spread the blank deck that she gave me face down in front of her. She touched one.
57:04
I jog that card and she says, using your imagination, would you say that the
57:12
card you touched is the seven of diamonds?
57:15
And she says, no. and I go like and I turn the card and it's blank and I say
57:20
oh it's not it's the two of clubs okay let's try this again,
57:23
touch another card she touches another card do you think this is the seven of
57:27
diamonds and she says like no and I go like oh it's not it's a jack of spades
57:31
okay and I'm just calling out cards by the third card,
57:35
she touches I up jog it and I said like do you think this is the seven of diamonds
57:39
and she says yes and I go like well if you imagine it and I turn it and it's
57:45
the Seven of Diamonds, Trinto,
57:49
she's freaked out.
57:52
And they were back with the Seven of Diamonds, and she's like flabbergasted.
58:00
And after that, she did two of my shows in LA. And she still thinks that's the
58:04
greatest thing she's ever seen.
58:06
But to say, that story and that effect can go in a show.
58:10
I mean, it has a mark to do to do it every time, but what a great effect.
58:14
Yeah. Are you kidding me? It was just like something that for three hours I kept going, okay okay,
58:21
what am i gonna do that is really impactful and it's it's funny because there
58:26
was like you know like i could have thought about let's just change the deck
58:29
in a full deck of cards you know that was another possibility but really like the idea of
58:35
she keeping something that she can't really manage because it's like it's the
58:39
blank deck with just one card the card name and And I really like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:45
So, yeah. So that's one of those geek stories that is very weird.
58:48
But I love it because it's something that I didn't, I wasn't planning to do.
58:54
And all of a sudden it just like happened in the moment. For three hours,
58:58
seated at the poker table playing with a blank deck of cards.
59:02
Amazing wow sometimes that's the best magic is those one-off moments that you
59:08
think of that you're like ah this is perfect for right now yeah yeah yeah,
59:14
so good now i can't believe we're out of time already and i'm so glad that we
59:19
got helder to do most of the talking because that's what we want the show a
59:23
little bit more before we wrap up where is it when is it,
59:26
what's the deal so the show is happening in new york at the new york city center
59:32
it goes from wednesday through sunday and we are running until december 6th
59:38
and so grab a plane ticket fly over to new york and enjoy the show,
59:45
you got some 230 matinees on that list how are those going for you i'm curious
59:49
i actually love to matine i think i think people when,
59:54
when they come to the theater on an afternoon they really decided to spend the
59:58
time with you yeah so they are very very,
1:00:01
very giving in a way because they really want to be there you know like i think
1:00:05
sometimes people when they come at night
1:00:08
it's because it's only their free time so they are tired after work they come
1:00:12
you know like so i think it's a little bit of a mix i think a 2 30 crowd
1:00:17
you know it can be it can be a little bit slower sure can be a little bit older
1:00:21
sometimes no doubt about that
1:00:23
but at the same time people really chose most of the times to be there with you, and I like that.
1:00:30
I love a matinee magic show. Yeah, and you told us backstage,
1:00:34
but what are your thoughts on doing magic in the morning? You had a really good
1:00:38
sentence about that. Magic in the morning should be illegal.
1:00:41
That's what I think. Yes.
1:00:45
Put that on a t-shirt. Yeah. I mean, you're really putting a good case together
1:00:50
as to why Nick and I need to fly to New York. And that's very,
1:00:54
very possible to see this show.
1:00:56
For everyone who's listening to this or watching, the link to the show the new
1:01:00
york city center tickets are in the description of wherever you're listening to this
1:01:05
so you can of course go and scope that out and you can also follow how the show
1:01:09
is going on instagram with the hope theory instagram which is linked below as well,
1:01:15
and of course all of helder's work and if you're a magician the you can scope
1:01:20
out the secret language dot com as well,
1:01:23
but look we this we just everyone has to go and see the show because it only
1:01:27
exists live currently although netflix if you're listening please do your thing this would be amazing,
1:01:33
do it helder do it because i guess then the benefit is you could add things into it that aren't,
1:01:39
in a show like you can add overlays and you know or go the amazon prime route
1:01:44
like a lot of guys are going that way where you release it by they could you know per buy,
1:01:50
yeah i love it to purchase your work off the you know streaming yeah and there
1:01:55
are plenty of people who are ready to do that absolutely yes but for now we're
1:01:59
going to end our episode in the way that we always do which is by giving our guest the final word.
1:02:10
If you love magic, if you're passionate about magic, I say, do it from your
1:02:15
heart. I think it's the most important thing you can do for yourself and for magic.
1:02:22
Thanks for listening. It's time for us to disappear now.
1:02:27
But we'll see you again on the next episode of The Magic Guys.