Latest / The Strategic Pause / What’s for dinner? (Rituals and responsibilities)
Transcript
- Katrina: Welcome to season two, episode one of the strategic pause. We are back again. Yay! We Jill: What's up with the strategic boss? Yay! Katrina: are back. We are excited about season two, where we're gonna be focusing on a lot of leadership topics, getting Jill: And then we should fix it. Katrina: into some detail, taking that moment to just pause and think. So, Jill. Jill: Strategically Katrina: Strategically, you know it. Today our pause is all about what's for dinner. And we can give the background of this particular episode and the idea behind this episode, because it's not necessarily about food. Okay, it can be. Jill: No s yeah. Katrina: But we had a conversation about our dinner time rituals. Do you remember that? Jill: I sure do. It's it was one of the well, the first conversation we had was actually about like how often you buy onions. And that was one of the moments I'm like, that's so great. We're very, very different, but so similar. And then at the at the beginning of summer we had a follow-up conversation as well. So yes, I'm remembering both of them. Katrina: And just to enlighten people, Jill doesn't buy onions. And I happen to be in a house where we buy them often in 25 or 50 pound bags, if they don't come from the garden. So which led to a whole conversation. Jill: I I'm not yeah. I was just gonna say I don't think I bought I mean I legitimately couldn't remember the last time I bought an onion. So I have in the past bought them, but I couldn't tell you it's probably been years. Katrina: Well, and you might be wondering, how does this relate to rituals and responsibilities Jill: Ha ha ha. Katrina: in any way? And and I was as I was thinking about it and getting ready, kind of prepping a little bit today, because we've decided maybe pause a little bit before the strategic pause so that we can be bring everyone a little more quality moment with us. Jill: That was some of our learnings from last year after we strategically reflected and we wrapped up the season. Katrina: Exactly, exactly. And you Jill: Yeah. Katrina: know, the onion conversation kind of led to thinking about the systems we put in place for our families, for our lives. And Jill is a like, order the groceries, they arrive, feed the kids, and I'm a go to the grocery store, have the interaction, have that community connection, come home. Jill: Mm. Katrina: Cook from scratch, sit down together, eat the meal, which as I'm saying that I I understand the energy and effort required. Jill: I just don't I'm honestly exhausted and we barely started, so just from that whole routine of what you described. Katrina: Yeah, but but the the cool thing is, and and you just led us there, is that we have habit, we have routine, and we have ritual. And they're all related, but they're all a little bit different. So when you think of habit, Jill, what do you think of? Jill: something that I do repeatedly, right? So I go on a walk pretty much every morning that I physically can. So that is now a habit. I do it repeatedly. There's something that I wanted to do. I started to do it doing repeatedly. Katrina: Okay. when I think of a habit, I think of flossing my teeth every night. Your your husb your husband would be proud, right? Yeah. and and and it's somet go ahead. Jill: I do that also. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. In fact, I have a flossing habit story. Sorry. I was just gonna say, I didn't actually used to floss. And then I mean, you know, whatever. Like I'd floss every so often. And then when my husband got accepted to dental school, I was like, I mean I have to floss now. Like I'm gonna come across way too many people who are gonna be able to tell whether or not I flossed. So in 2009, when he started dental school, I started regularly flossing. That is my that is my I'm admitting this to the whole world now. I do floss, but I had to actually invest in dental school for my husband to start that. So Katrina: You had some absolute pressure to perform. Jill: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Katrina: I love it. I love it. Well, I did not marry a dentist, so I didn't have that pressure. so I only started flossing every day six years ago. And it was it was after reading Atomic Habits, and James Clear talks about Jill: Okay, yes. Katrina: like just start with one, right? And like you just gotta get started. And so it became a habit. And so so we have habits. Jill: Yeah, it's a great book, by the way, highly recommend. Katrina: Absolutely. I go back to it often. And then you you mentioned routine. So what do you what is the difference in your mind between a habit and routine? Jill: I so listeners, we did not discuss this in advance. I'm actually not sure if I'm giving the right answer here. I'm just gonna throw that out there. So in my mind Okay, Katrina: It's just your answer. Jill: okay, okay. So there's not something right we're looking for. In my mind a routine is okay Okay. Katrina: No, I'm not go I'm not judging you. I'm just like what comes to mind? I'll judge you later. Jill: Thank you. That's good. In my mind, a routine is like a repeated, almost a repeated set of habits, or like the things that you do on a regular basis. So, like when I get up, the first thing I do is I walk to my closet because that's where I keep my coffee maker. And I make myself a cup of coffee in my closet, which is attached to my bedroom. I can't walk very far without the coffee. I make the coffee and I bring it back to my couch. I sit for about 15 minutes and I drink my coffee. That's like my morning routine. And everybody knows it's just a bad idea to talk to me before that portion of the day has happened. You seem like you might have some questions. So please feel free. Katrina: I I think I may move into judgment now. because Jill: Okay, fair. Katrina: I am often accused by by someone with the initials JP of of being weird and having Jill: No no, not accusatory. Loving it. Loving acceptance. Yes. Katrina: yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not even a cute it's just like blatant like labeling. And and you just described your coffee maker is in your closet. Jill: Mm-hmm. It sure is. In my closet, there is like a it's a fairly big closet, and I don't allow my husband. Katrina: A sink. Jill: Yeah. No, the sink is next to it, but there is a desk, like a built-in desk. Like somebody at some point built a desk. And so what do I need a desk in my closet for? Nothing. I mean, I don't I have an office. So It that is where my Keurig goes. And so I have a whole coffee station set up. There is no paper on this desk. It is a Keurig. There's actually also an espresso there and there's baskets with pods and a little thing and I hang my mugs up and I bring my mugs up there. Yeah. I don't know how we got into this, but yes. Katrina: I'm not going I I am not going to judge your closet routine, but weird, weird. Jill: I'll send you a picture. How's that? Yeah, good point. Good point. I'll put that on our YouTube page. How's that? Routine, routine. Yeah. Katrina: Okay, all right, we we may have to share that with people. Interesting. Okay, but but routine, right? Okay, perfect. Routine is and and and you said it, like, you know, these things that you do, they're a little habitual, but they have kind of steps, and coffee's like perfect routine. But coffee is a great segue into what can be ritual. So when you think of ritual, again, I'm not judging, just looking for your opinion. Jill: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katrina: So when does something become a ritual? Or to ask you two questions, which which is a really bad facilitation technique, but we're on a podcast. Jill: No judgment. No judgment. No judgment. We're totally judging you. Katrina: No judgment. Maybe that's what the the title of this one should be, like no judgment, except it's full of it. Someone right now is judging us thinking like, and you actually put effort into making this better this time? Jill: It's weird. It seems like they said they planned these. Katrina: KPI of laughing s Jill: Yep, and the new word is coming. So honestly, we're meeting our metrics. We're good. Katrina: Absolutely, absolutely. We're on it. When Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: does something become a ritual? Or what makes something a ritual? Jill: You know, this is interesting because I don't use the word ritual in my daily vocabulary. I don't even know. I guess a ritual is when, well, I'm gonna give you an example. Literally, the first thing that popped into my head of a family ritual, and you're gonna make fun of this Katrina: Excellent. Jill: as well. So just so we're clear, get ready. Katrina: It just evens us out. Jill: this is this is a generational ritual. So in our family, the birthday fairy comes every year on your birthday. And the birthday fairy came when I was a kid, and now the birthday fairy comes when my children have their birthdays. And the birthday fairy comes only on your birthday and leaves you little small gifts throughout the day in different places as part of your birthday. And always has a couple of places. There's always a birthday fairy little present in the car, and there's always a birthday fairy present on the pillow right before you go to sleep. So that is the first thing that I thought of when you said like a ritual. Like to me, I guess that's kind of a family ritual, maybe. I don't know. Would you agree? Is that a ritual? Katrina: I I think there's a a we're a fine line and and I did not prepare for this, but you brought it up between ritual and tradition. But I think that I think they are Jill: yes. Katrina: probably more synonymous than habit and routine. And and the reason why is that we have put meaning to them. Jill: Okay, okay. Katrina: That that's my take. That's my take. And and I think the birthday fairy is delightful. And and just as a reminder, Jill: Okay. Katrina: my birthday's nov in November. Jill: Excellent. I will leave a 25 pack bag full of 25 onions. No, 25 pounds of onions on your front porch for your birthday, which is November 5th, I think. So to get that right. There we go. Okay. Okay. So yes. So onions coming your way from the birthday ferry. Katrina: Yes, remember. Yes, you did. Remember, remember the fifth of November. If I have all these onions on my Excellent. I love that you chose onions and not pencils, but anyway, that's a different conversation. The Jill: No, the Birthday Fairy gifts are usually smaller, not in size, but in cost. So you know I can't spring. Birthday fairy can't spring for blackwing pencils, I'm sorry. Katrina: All right. So it's just like an onion. All right. We're we we that works. That works. So so as I kind of dug into the idea of rituals, it it really is the meaning. It really is that, you know, you it's something that you are looking forward to. It's something you don't do all of the time. I think in our house there is a morning coffee ritual, because my husband does a pour over that's weighed and measured and temperature Jill: Yeah. Katrina: and like and I can't do it. So that's his. Jill: Is it happening in your closet? This ritual? Is it also in your closet? weird. Katrina: No, it happens in the kitchen. It's in the kitchen where most people make coffee. Jill: Very bizarre. I don't know what you're talking about, but okay. Okay, good. Katrina: Yes, indeed. You know, whatever works for you. Whatever I you know, I think we have to be open to differences, right? And I will be open to your Jill: Okay, good. Katrina: I I I'll I would find it off rather odd though if you ever invite me over for coffee. Yeah, let's just skip that. Jill: Okay. Katrina: So so we bring this back to leadership and we bring this back to organizations. You Jill: And Katrina: know, we're talking about our families, and and those are easy rituals, I think. We can kind of point to to Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: several, especially if we connect them to tradition. But when we come back into the workplace, what rituals what rituals do you have you seen in the workplace? Jill: Mm. Well, I mean, there's the very basic ritual of starting your meeting with some sort of open question, right? Because, and to your point, it's a habit that has some meaning behind it, right? We do it because we want to get Katrina: Right. Jill: to know each other, right? We wanna we wanna make sure that we know each other as humans and just kind of take that time. So there's that very basic ritual. then there's the more involved rituals, and I'll see this. A lot of times, like at a retreat or something. and I was actually at a retreat with the city of West Sacramento, one of their team members, and the team leader has a ritual. This is not necessary, but it's very cool. She makes them something every year, and so she handmade them license plates with nicknames. for each of them and the nickname was based on like their performance on the team. And she does like a handmade gift for them every year, like at their annual retreat. Like that's just like a ritual that she sort of has for them. which is very cool. Katrina: I I love that. I I Jill: Obviously. Yeah. Katrina: I love that. Like, and and that's truly a ritual. You know, we look forward to it. There's great meaning to it. Yeah, we can we could draw parallels if you either of us actually like understood or watched sports. We could draw a lot of like sports rituals, kind of the same thing. I don't know. You wear Jill: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Katrina: the t-shirt, you have the chant, you have the walkout song, whatever it might be. and the cool thing that I didn't I didn't realize, like I kind of knew, but the more I like dug into the the the topic, the more that I saw and and really cool research behind this, that organizations with rituals. Have greater engagement. Jill: Yeah, I totally believe it. And I would even say teams that have rituals have greater engagement within those organizations. Yeah, 100%. Because it almost becomes part of your Katrina: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Jill: identity, right? It's part of these people who are not just disparate humans across you know the world. They're they're together on this team and it helps make that team an identity versus just something I I go do or I'm I'm at. Katrina: Right, right. You you build connection. You build you build a connection. I I know you. And and then I it's something to look forward to. But they, you know, as I was, as we're talking about it and as I think about it, there are teams where you start with like a question, right? Like let's just take that basic one. Like somebody comes up with a question that everybody answers at the beginning of a team meeting. And I've had both experiences where I love hearing everybody's questions. I'm really into it. And then I've had those experiences where it's like, my God, I cannot do this again. You d have am I I'm not alone in this, right? It's so so what's the difference? How do we build Jill: So it makes the difference. Katrina: the ritual that connects us as a team versus the ritual that divides us? Jill: I'm gonna give a bat an example of like a really painful ritual and then I'll talk about that because this is one I bring up. when I was at UCSF, it was actually it's a delightful team. There's still there's the center is still there. It was good people. They're still doing really good work. But there was a ritual that Every time someone left, and it actually happened more often than I thought, because a lot of people were on contracts, they're on programs, which is kind of how UCSF, the UC system can work. Anytime anybody left, we had a goodbye breakfast, and everybody came to the conference room and sat in a circle around the there's like 25 people here around this conference room table, and the person sat at the end. And we would go around and everybody would say what they liked about that person. And it was so painfully uncomfortable for a lot of reasons. But part of the reason was we were all very program-based. So there was a lot of people we really didn't even know. So it'd be like, I love how James is always smiling. Like it was nothing of any actual, like, impactful feedback. And so as we talk about that, and when I left, by the way, I put my notice in and I said I will absolutely not be participating in the goodbye breakfast before I go, just so we're all clear. I would will not be doing that. So I do think Katrina: Yeah. Jill: on some level it's to your point, is what's the meaning behind it, right? Is is it to get to know people or is it just to listen to someone prattle on about their own personal interest and lives and there is a fine line there. Katrina: Well, and it seems superficial if if everyone if I have no connection with you and I'm asked to say something about you as you walk out the door, like Jill: Right right right. Katrina: Like we haven't taken time to tell you we appreciate you, so we're gonna do this today. That's just weird. Jill: We're gonna do it before you go. Yeah, yeah. All all at once. Everybody at once. Katrina: Right. Well, and and it brings up another issue I think that organizations Jill: Yeah. Katrina: make the mistake with all the time, that they bring people together who don't function as a team Jill: Mm. Katrina: and give them team building. And there's really Jill: Yeah. And there's Katrina: no reason for us to connect and have those superficial activities if we're not functionally working together. I don't have you has have you had that experience where like let's team build but there's no team Jill: I think it's it's generally in my experience, it's a lack of expectations, right? I mean, if you are, hey, I have an organization and I wanna bring four teams together to do something because we're really siloed and we're actually not really giving the best service we can because finance never talks to marketing, who never talks to IT, who never talks to whatever. That in my opinion is totally reasonable. but How many times do we actually have the expectations set? We don't. It's just a meeting on our calendar and we go and we're in a room and it's really awkward. And since I'm on a roll and you didn't ask, I think most team building is is done really poorly. and is is really done with the purpose of getting the team together, but it doesn't actually, there's nothing rooted in Is it communication we're working on? Are we trying to whatever? There's nothing rooted. It's just like, and now we're gonna build human pyramids, and I hope you like to be blindfolded. And so the the lack of expectations combined with the really poorly planned activities, you hear team building now and you're like, I'm pretty sure I'm sick that whole month. Like I can't come in that whole month. When in reality, it can be really powerful and impactful and dare I say enjoyable. Katrina: Right. If if you have a a clear expectation and if I'm gonna show up at work a week after those activities and have some reason to connect with you, have some reason or need that you and I are gonna benefit from. I Jill: Right. Katrina: think working in the same building, you know, it's nice to know you, but if my function never connects to your function, I don't. really need to know you, other than like just for the good of community. Yeah. Jill: Sure. Right, right. And you know, there is, I think it's important for the good of community. And and I think you should probably be able to opt into that, right? If that feels like something that you want to participate in. we we have this term when I was at UC Davis, we had this term called forced fun. And it was like You know, it was like, and it wasn't that our group did this actually. It was s it was more around like other organizations because we saw a lot of other organizations work and it was like, we were bringing everybody in and now you're gonna have fun and this is our fun day. And a lot of people think that is fun, but a lot of people don't think that's fun. And so really trying to look at if you're bringing people in and you're gonna spend the money, right? Because it's it's a resource that you're investing in. What are the outcomes we are looking for to have in that day? And maybe it is just time to relax with your coworkers, right? But then let's just let them relax. Like, you know, don't force them to d do uncomfortable things with people they don't know. Katrina: Exactly. Exactly. So if we're thinking about ritual, we know it and I there are a bunch of resources that we're gonna share in the show notes because there's so much research, there's so much data about rituals in improving engagement, improving social cohesion, culture, like we could go on and on. What rituals do you think really work? If if somebody listening Jill: Somebody's Katrina: was like, Okay, I want to start a ritual on my team tomorrow, what would you recommend? Jill: have we talked about when I left UC Davis, they gave me a shirt that said it depends? Have we had that conversation? Okay. So when I left UC Davis, Katrina: Mm. No, we have not. Jill: they gave me a shirt that said it depends, Jill Parrish. Like it was my quote, and I still have that t shirt. And I'm bringing Katrina: Nice. Jill: that up because I think it depends. And I just went over this with the group last week. If you are inheriting a new team and you are leading that team, one of the first things I think you should do is ask the people on the team individually how they want to be recognized. Because I know this is shocking and it's shocking to me, but not everybody loves public recognition, which is mind-blowing, right? So I think if you have a team full of people who love public recognition and are very extroverted, then maybe your ritual is something more public and maybe it is in a meeting. If you have a team who's who leans towards actually I just prefer, you know, discussing these things in private or hey, I love a good thank you card. Maybe your ritual is every Friday. You're writing a handfelt thank you card and you're getting coffee for one team member and whatever that looks like. I think there is a lot of different rituals that can work, but I think none are gonna work with every team. And part of Katrina: Absolutely. Jill: part of running a team, I think, is doing the work and saying, What what do my people want? Maybe they are the like forced fun, happy hour, woo-hoo group. Maybe that's works for them. Maybe they're like, let's just bring a book and we'll all read during lunch hour and not talk to each other. That's great too. But it should probably be a conversation. At some point. Katrina: I I th I think there's opportunity too to watch what ha is happening in a group and Jill: Totally. Katrina: and grab something that that resonates and repeat it as a ritual. And then it you know it's a much more organic process then. I love a group that I'm part of with Chris Taylor of Actionable. He starts every meeting that we're in together. asking what our wins are. Jill: Mm. Katrina: And I think it's just such a positive way to look back on the week or the month or whatever time period. Jill: Yeah. Katrina: And just, and you know, it's not forced. You don't have to share. You can, you know, some we're usually on Zoom, so you put it in chat. and sometimes he'll ask about them Jill: Something else. Katrina: and we'll talk a little bit more. And I just think it's such a nice way. Jill: So Katrina: And and I know like when I go to a meeting with him, I c I'm looking forward to it. It's this meaningful thing. I'm I'm thinking about, I know when it's gonna happen. And so it it and then it puts the meeting itself in a in a more Jill: So that is Katrina: positive light too. So that Jill: Yeah. Katrina: that's that's my experience. Yeah. Jill: I love that. The the thing that's coming to my head, this is maybe a little bit of a Debbie Downer. is I think it's important to be careful when a ritual turns into just sort of like toxic repeated behavior. Because I definitely have also had managers who go into, you know, a meeting or they go into a team and they're like, The whole 30 minutes is them complaining about this different department and they really bond over it. They seem very bonded over it, but they spend the entire time. And that's just sort of a silly example. But I do think there are things that get carried on from team to team that that aren't maybe serving the purpose anymore. And so just like creating new rituals, I think it's important to figure out when are what are rituals that aren't actually serving us or this organization anymore. Katrina: Well and I I think I think when it's not serving and it when it kind of loses its meaning, then it's it moves into another category that we need to come make up a name for it. So it's a it's a look at that. I it's Jill: there you there's your name. There's your new word. There's your new word. Yeah. Yeah. Katrina: a anti ritual. It's but that's not it. That's not a very good word. But we kinda have the idea there. It's Jill: What's like a combination of like toxic and ritual or like a non-serving ritual? Katrina: Ooh. Jill: I don't know. Katrina: It's a torquiture. Jill: That just flows off the time. Of course, a torquewall. Katrina: See, there you go, torquitule. No more torquituals. We've had enough. Jill: We will have no more Torquels. Katrina: Well to bring us back to to a positive place Jill: It is yeah, good. Katrina: and as we wrap up, I wanna share Jill: Yeah. Katrina: the ritual that I love because I came up with it. And it you know, it's really only a ritual for me, but I always announce it as like I have this ritual that I'd like you to take part in. So so we'll take we'll do that now. Will you are are you willing to do this ritual with me? Okay. Jill: Okay. I'm so open. I'm ready for you. Katrina: Okay. So at the end of of my facilitation classes or my in my T for T classes, essentially, training for trainers, I ask everyone to, if it's available to them, to stand in a circle. Jill: Okay. Katrina: In if we're in person, obviously. That would be weird on Zoom. to stand in a pr in a circle. Jill: That's like, I mean, I'll stand, but I have bright red orange shorts on, so red orange shorts on this is gonna get weird real quick. Thank you. Thank you. I would have stood. Katrina: Yeah, don't stand. Don't stand. I know you can I'm just I'm I'm setting the stage, but you can sit. You can sit. So everyone stands. Everyone sta my goodness. I would I would say we could edit all of this out, but I I think some people the I think the people who wa who listen to it ritually and watch it, I think they watch it for this. So everyone stands in a circle. Jill: 100%. We we sh maybe we should have said we don't edit this podcast. So if if you're listening, we do zero percent editing. Okay, go ahead. Katrina: We might get a comment that maybe we should do five Jill: Yeah. Katrina: percent. But anyway, every Everyone stands in a circle and I ask them, you know, they've been in, they've been in the program some to six days typically. And I ask them to share with someone directly something that they're grateful for, something that they have done some some way, maybe, and I give some examples, like it could be small or it could be big, whatever it is. And there's no repr reciprocity. You just say, like, I would say, Jill. Jill: to Katrina: I really appreciate the text you sent me yesterday for your Jill: agree appreciate the time so simple as we Katrina: one year anniversary. It made my day. And Jill: No, I'm glad. Katrina: and then, you know, you would go, thank you, or whatever. And then the next person goes. And and I I and I often say, like, but I'm not included. Because that's the easy one, right? People are like, Jill: Yeah. Katrina: Katrina, blah, blah, blah. I want this to be about them. So that's my ritual. So I would invite you to shh. Here's something you're grateful Jill: Mm-hmm. Katrina: for with someone in the circle. Jill: I feel like that's just you and me. Katrina: Monica might be listening. Jill: That's true. Monica could be listening. you know what? I am so grateful that y you just go along with me in almost any idea I pitch, you just sort of go along with it and probably silently judge, but it's okay because you go along with it and you smile and you enjoy yourself and I appreciate that. Katrina: Thank you. Thank you. I Jill: Ha ha ha. Katrina: probably do judge, but usually like in my house at dinner, as we are sitting together, as we do every meal. And see what I did there? Brought it back around. Jill: Fine. Totally reasonable. Which brought it right back around. I was just gonna say, which brings us right back around to how dinner time is a ritual for your family. Katrina: Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. with the onions almost in every Jill: With the onions. Katrina: meal. It's where you start. It's where you top it at the end. All right. Jill: I need some onion recipes, I guess. Katrina: Any recipe that is a savory recipe begins as an onion recipe. so Jill: I I I guess I should say I I don't know why I said that. I couldn't tell you the last time I actually used a recipe, so Katrina: And there we have it. There's no judgment. Jill: And there we have it. That's my ritual in my family's. There is no recipe. Katrina: And that's okay. That's okay. That's okay. We all do what we need to do. and Jill: We all do. Katrina: it comes down to expectations, right? St begins and ends. And the Jill: Yeah. Exactly. Katrina: we have the we have the same outcome in both of our houses, which is that everyone's fed. Jill: Everyone's fed. Everyone's fed and more or less happy with what they're eating most days. Most days. So yet another way. You and I do different things the same. I think so too. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm impressed we brought this Katrina: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think I think there are some parallels. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Awesome. Jill: a back around to something that actually tied into the title. So I feel like we should yeah. Katrina: Absolutely. Jill: Good job, Us. Katrina: There we go. Yeah, good job, us. Thank you for listening to to season two, episode one, What's for Dinner? Jill: Good job us. Season two Katrina: Yeah, here we go. Thank you for being here today. Jill: Go buy an onion. Thank you. Bye. Katrina: All right.